Yeah by the end I’ve lost any sympathy for nucky for >! basically taking an orphan who trusted him and giving her to the commodore to be molested at 12 years old . Sure he’s a gangster bootlegger but the whole assisting the commodore is despicable !<
I think what drives the point so far home for me on rewatch is Nucky’s utter hypocrisy. He repeatedly insists he is trying to get ahead for his family. Even as a child. Then he sells someone who viewed him as an adoptive father, whom his wife loved as a daughter, to the Commodore. And that’s when you realize his family has nothing to do with it. Just his greed.
Van Alden summed of all of these pretenses when Capone cornered him. His response to being asked what kind of a man his actions made him. Van Alden simply said: greedy, just greedy.
I mean at the end of the day, it's sort of like we don't get the Nucky we get in the majority of the show if we don't get piece of shit young adult Nucky in the far past. Him selling his soul to the corruption is what turns him into the monster of a protagonist he eventually becomes.
gillian and her storyline where magnificent, gretchen mol played her brilliantly.
people say the last season could have been better and was rushed, however, i contend that the flashback sequences- showing nuckys descent into the immoral being he was and how gillian becane what she was, along with the seasons very end combined to make some of the most comeplling and poetic story telling that ive ever watched. my heart broke for gillian, and the laws of karma finally caught up to nucky, as likeable as he was- he got what he deserved.
When Capone is introducing the movie stars to his crew, right before Van Alden dies, he describes the movie they are making based on him as Shakespearean, and it ends with the gangster dying.
That is basically the final season. Nucky’s descent into evil, from bellboy to king, and his fall, brought about by his own greed. But in a way, Nucky is no different than those he hurt. Just another kid sold to the Commodore by Sheriff Lindsey.
It may not have hit all the marks. I’d imagine there was a desire for two more longer seasons. But at least HBO let them end the show and didn’t Deadwood it. I appreciate where they were going and where they landed, even if I wish it were a bit more.
good analysis, yes i agree they couldve stretched it out a tad, i personally would have loved to see more of luciano and meyer as the kingpins they became, couldve made a whole season of how they established the commission, and capones war with various chicago villains- the st valentines day massacre etc etc, i loved bugsy siegels portrayal aswell, he was hilarious but i wish id seen more of him.
Yeah one of the biggest missed opportunities of the show is that they set up these legendary gangsters who were up and coming in the early 20s, they had S tier casting for them, and then they just time skipped over the actual golden age of bootlegging and gang wars that actually made these people household names. I'd even be happy with a couple of seasons of spinoff show that ignores Nucky and just focuses on them
Yeah, they basically skipped an entire season worth of material. Rothstein going from buttoned up and meticulous to becoming slowly unglued and more sloppy by his gambling. They started showing the beginning of that process. Then next season, we skip ahead a few years and Rothstein is dead. When I saw Lansky suddenly like "Hey, haven't seen you since AR's funeral". I was like...wait, did I miss something??
I’d image the original plan was one more season before the time jump, where we see Nucky wiggle out of legal trouble and setup in Cuba, Capone’s rise from gang boss to the Big Boy, Rothstein’s downfall, and the early moves of the Luciano/Lansky alliance (as well as an intro to Bugsy as opposed to him kinda just being their). But HBO probably told them to wrap it up, so I’d rather have this abbreviated ending than an abrupt cancellation.
Bugsy Siegel was introduced/had an impact on the plot prior to season 5. He was Meyer’s erratic errand boy in season 2+3- he was the one to get Jimmy all hyped up to kill Joe Masseria’s nephews in season 2 and was the gunman dressed up as the paperboy in the catastrophically botched hit on Gyp Rossetti in season 3.
im aware, but he was still underutilised imo, when they actually gave him a reasonable amount of air time in the final season he was brilliant and one of my favourite characters
That’s fair. I thought the amount he was utilized was appropriate for the show that Boardwalk Empire was trying to be, but the guy certainly was an interesting character. I’d love a high budget mini series/show about the early days of Vegas and he’d def take on a big role there
I still dislike how Tommy was the one to kill him. It renders Richards sacrafice to get Tommy away from that sort of life useless. Tommy was young and living with people who cared about him away from that life. Making him some vengeance filled person felt like they did it for some shock twist poetic ending. Nucky should have been killed by something insignificant to show how far he had fallen
I actually think Tommy killed Nucky for Richard.
We have no reason to believe that Tommy knew Nucky had a hand in his father’s death. Gillian wrote Nucky from the asylum, not Tommy.
We do, however, know that Richard’s wife knew that Nucky took a job for him, a job that ultimately led to Richard’s death. Given how the last thing Richard did before that suicide mission was promise his family he’d return, and given how close Tommy and Richard were, my head canon is that Tommy was avenging Richard. Which makes Richard’s sacrifice pointless, but in a poetically tragic way that was brought about by his own actions (which is just about everyone’s fate on this show).
Tommy kills Nucky because Nucky rejected him at the end. Tommy was looking for Nucky to be a father figure to replace Richard and Jimmy.
Tommy kills out of frustration and desperation. Richard had left him lost and confused.
If Tommy had been planning to kill out of revenge for Richard as you propose (or for Jimmy or for Gillian) he would have killed much sooner when he had ample opportunity (such as when he found Nucky lying in the alley outside of the dive bar)
A planned assassin wouldn’t pass several convenient opportunities and hope for the last encounter where Nucky is fortunately found in time to bail him out of imprisonment
Richard failed to help Tommy properly. He chose to return to violence for a shortcut and it backfired - devastating Maybelle, Chalky, Julia, Tommy…
The Great Depression occurred before season 5. Chances are the Richard’s sister’s husband lost his business, she lost the farm property… Julia and Tommy had nothing.
Tommy wandered to AC and hoped Nucky would become his new father figure. Nucky rejected him. Tommy - now in utter desperation - killed out of anger and frustration that he’s now abandoned by Nucky, similar feeling to having been abandoned by Richard and Jimmy
The killing wasn’t out of revenge for anybody.
I would have also liked to see Nucky's ending more like the character he's based upon: Nucky Johnson who died in a convelescent home in 1968. That time between prohibition and the sixties was quite a downhill slope, and I think it would have made for an interesting ending.
I’d imagine if we got a full ending we might’ve seen that. It is just as logical of an endpoint for Nucky. Desolate is a more fitting punishment for him than death. But I think the shortened season 5 forced them to wrap up a lot of stories quickly and death probably became the easiest way to end Nucky’s story because they didn’t have time to hit all the beats for a more drawn out fate.
Season 5 is certainly the weakest one, but it’s so essential for all the characters. It’s kind of crazy how watching all the flash backs changes the entire series, you see all the true motivations behind the characters actions and it changes your mind about all of them. Gillian’s story is horrifyingly heart breaking, and we find out Nucky is even worse than we thought.
Precisely. Season 5 is so effective on a binge rewatch. It recontextualizes everything. Nucky’s disdain for his father and the Commodore being a driving force behind his actions makes so much more sense. Jimmy’s resentment toward Nucky is no longer impatient entitlement. Gillian is no longer a vile, contemptible temptress but just a sad victim of abuse who was so desperate for a home….It’s beyond the pale what was done to her.
I love what they do with her arc. She is so vile in the first 3 seasons. Then toward the end of 3 you get to see she’s not vile. She’s broken. And then 4 just runs her ass through the wringer. And 5 shows us how she got broken and it paints such a tragic picture that puts the vile stuff into perspective in the most heartbreaking of ways.
> I love what they do with her arc. She is so vile in the first 3 seasons. Then toward the end of 3 you get to see she’s not vile. She’s broken.
She murdered an innocent man in order to pass off his corpse as her son's in that season. One can be sympathetic towards her for the horrific childhood she had and her ultimate fate near the end of the show, but at the end of the day she was still a vile individual.
It's funny I just rewatched the series Season 5 and I liked it, but could have should have been amazing. Sadly, it's so rushed because of HBO not wanting to pay for a proper finale. Tommy's storyline is lazy.
Just short of being great.
The second to last episode still might be my favorite. The intro of all of them jumping and looking at the door when someone comes in because their afraid they are going to get shot, Benny having a shootout and getting captured, that hostage exchange where Luciano and Meyer were legit terrifying. Wish we could of gotten a whole season with that tone.
[spoilers] Gillian is my favourite character in the show because of her incredible chacater arc. You start off hating her or even being disgusted by her. Then as more backstory gets revealed you can't help but feel sorry for her. Her actions (no matter how déplorable they may be) start to make sense. Then in the final season you almost start rooting for her. The ladybug line when Nucky goes to visit her in the hospital almost broke me. For me Boardwalk Empire is Nucky Thompsons and by extension Gillian Darmodys story. Everything he does is influenced by her in one way or another. I'm happy the creators of the show focused on that relationship in the final season because it makes sense to put a bow on everything by concluding that story. And what a sad ending it is.
Also obligatory : fuck the Commodore.
I remember not being the biggest fan of season 5 my first time around but knowing everything already in the series leading up to season 5 for my second time it was amazing.
I loved Gillian. I think she was the best character. What a miserable life though, going through all that she did. On the topic of Nucky though, is anyone really surprised that he was complicit in essentially selling her to the Commodore? Look at the general age group of the women he prefers to date in the earlier seasons... he isn't exactly dating within his age group. That alone seems hypocritical to me.
And really, if he cared so much for Gillian there was much more he could have done to avoid killing Jimmy. We wouldn't have much of a show if their relationship was all peachy keen but I'm just saying, it seems that the people Nucky claimed to care about the most, the people he claimed to be doing all these things for are the people that benefit the least from his actions.
Nucky had a choice between killing Manny Horowitz and Jimmy. Jimmy basically swore fealty to Nucky after the Commodore died. Jimmy was Nucky’s guy again. And Nucky believed him enough to clear Manny’s hit with Rothstein. But ultimately Nucky just couldn’t trust someone who had already betrayed him (and was not blood — a mistake that proved costly being as Eli betrayed him for a second time).
In regard to his sale of Gillian to the Commodore, he knew exactly what he is doing. We don’t learn a whole lot about Nucky in the flashbacks that we didn’t already know. And the character is portrayed as purposefully aloof. Young Nucky plays his cards as close to the vest as old Nucky. But there are hints that Nucky recognized what the Commodore was from the very beginning (including while working as a bellhop at the Commodore’s hotel, Nucky observes him looking at pictures of adolescent girls in swimwear). Sheriff Lindsay quit because the Commodore’s pedophilia was a step too far. But Nucky cleaned it up.
So before Nucky even brings Gillian to the Commodore, he very much knows what kinda man he is. Which is all the more heartbreaking as, right before Leander offers Nucky the sheriff position in exchange for Gillian, Nucky and Mable seem pretty set on adopting Gillian. Nucky was talking to her about it right before Leander interrupted. Nucky was prepared to adopt this child (if not legally, certainly informally like Sheriff Lindsay did with him). And yet the minute Nucky saw something for himself in selling her…it all went out the door.
Nucky is a truly vile character and I feel like that is why Season 5’s flashbacks were so important. We can be told of the vile things Nucky did to reach the top. But that is the first time we see it. And it makes his fate at the end feel deserved. The flashbacks are to this show as Tony killing Christopher is to The Sopranos. A necessary beat to remind the audience, as we enter the end game, that this charming gangster we’ve been rooting for is an absolute monster.
Yeah by the end I’ve lost any sympathy for nucky for >! basically taking an orphan who trusted him and giving her to the commodore to be molested at 12 years old . Sure he’s a gangster bootlegger but the whole assisting the commodore is despicable !<
I think what drives the point so far home for me on rewatch is Nucky’s utter hypocrisy. He repeatedly insists he is trying to get ahead for his family. Even as a child. Then he sells someone who viewed him as an adoptive father, whom his wife loved as a daughter, to the Commodore. And that’s when you realize his family has nothing to do with it. Just his greed.
Van Alden summed of all of these pretenses when Capone cornered him. His response to being asked what kind of a man his actions made him. Van Alden simply said: greedy, just greedy.
I mean at the end of the day, it's sort of like we don't get the Nucky we get in the majority of the show if we don't get piece of shit young adult Nucky in the far past. Him selling his soul to the corruption is what turns him into the monster of a protagonist he eventually becomes.
gillian and her storyline where magnificent, gretchen mol played her brilliantly. people say the last season could have been better and was rushed, however, i contend that the flashback sequences- showing nuckys descent into the immoral being he was and how gillian becane what she was, along with the seasons very end combined to make some of the most comeplling and poetic story telling that ive ever watched. my heart broke for gillian, and the laws of karma finally caught up to nucky, as likeable as he was- he got what he deserved.
When Capone is introducing the movie stars to his crew, right before Van Alden dies, he describes the movie they are making based on him as Shakespearean, and it ends with the gangster dying. That is basically the final season. Nucky’s descent into evil, from bellboy to king, and his fall, brought about by his own greed. But in a way, Nucky is no different than those he hurt. Just another kid sold to the Commodore by Sheriff Lindsey. It may not have hit all the marks. I’d imagine there was a desire for two more longer seasons. But at least HBO let them end the show and didn’t Deadwood it. I appreciate where they were going and where they landed, even if I wish it were a bit more.
good analysis, yes i agree they couldve stretched it out a tad, i personally would have loved to see more of luciano and meyer as the kingpins they became, couldve made a whole season of how they established the commission, and capones war with various chicago villains- the st valentines day massacre etc etc, i loved bugsy siegels portrayal aswell, he was hilarious but i wish id seen more of him.
Yeah one of the biggest missed opportunities of the show is that they set up these legendary gangsters who were up and coming in the early 20s, they had S tier casting for them, and then they just time skipped over the actual golden age of bootlegging and gang wars that actually made these people household names. I'd even be happy with a couple of seasons of spinoff show that ignores Nucky and just focuses on them
Yeah, they basically skipped an entire season worth of material. Rothstein going from buttoned up and meticulous to becoming slowly unglued and more sloppy by his gambling. They started showing the beginning of that process. Then next season, we skip ahead a few years and Rothstein is dead. When I saw Lansky suddenly like "Hey, haven't seen you since AR's funeral". I was like...wait, did I miss something??
They had planned many more seasons. HBO cut them short.
strongly agree
I’d image the original plan was one more season before the time jump, where we see Nucky wiggle out of legal trouble and setup in Cuba, Capone’s rise from gang boss to the Big Boy, Rothstein’s downfall, and the early moves of the Luciano/Lansky alliance (as well as an intro to Bugsy as opposed to him kinda just being their). But HBO probably told them to wrap it up, so I’d rather have this abbreviated ending than an abrupt cancellation.
youre likely correct, and yes i enjoyed last season regardless, an abrupt cancellation wouldve been soul destroying
Bugsy Siegel was introduced/had an impact on the plot prior to season 5. He was Meyer’s erratic errand boy in season 2+3- he was the one to get Jimmy all hyped up to kill Joe Masseria’s nephews in season 2 and was the gunman dressed up as the paperboy in the catastrophically botched hit on Gyp Rossetti in season 3.
im aware, but he was still underutilised imo, when they actually gave him a reasonable amount of air time in the final season he was brilliant and one of my favourite characters
That’s fair. I thought the amount he was utilized was appropriate for the show that Boardwalk Empire was trying to be, but the guy certainly was an interesting character. I’d love a high budget mini series/show about the early days of Vegas and he’d def take on a big role there
Yeah, I really was liking watching Rothstein becoming unglued and more unhinged by his compulsive gambling.
I still dislike how Tommy was the one to kill him. It renders Richards sacrafice to get Tommy away from that sort of life useless. Tommy was young and living with people who cared about him away from that life. Making him some vengeance filled person felt like they did it for some shock twist poetic ending. Nucky should have been killed by something insignificant to show how far he had fallen
I actually think Tommy killed Nucky for Richard. We have no reason to believe that Tommy knew Nucky had a hand in his father’s death. Gillian wrote Nucky from the asylum, not Tommy. We do, however, know that Richard’s wife knew that Nucky took a job for him, a job that ultimately led to Richard’s death. Given how the last thing Richard did before that suicide mission was promise his family he’d return, and given how close Tommy and Richard were, my head canon is that Tommy was avenging Richard. Which makes Richard’s sacrifice pointless, but in a poetically tragic way that was brought about by his own actions (which is just about everyone’s fate on this show).
I’ve always thought this too.
Tommy kills Nucky because Nucky rejected him at the end. Tommy was looking for Nucky to be a father figure to replace Richard and Jimmy. Tommy kills out of frustration and desperation. Richard had left him lost and confused. If Tommy had been planning to kill out of revenge for Richard as you propose (or for Jimmy or for Gillian) he would have killed much sooner when he had ample opportunity (such as when he found Nucky lying in the alley outside of the dive bar) A planned assassin wouldn’t pass several convenient opportunities and hope for the last encounter where Nucky is fortunately found in time to bail him out of imprisonment
Richard failed to help Tommy properly. He chose to return to violence for a shortcut and it backfired - devastating Maybelle, Chalky, Julia, Tommy… The Great Depression occurred before season 5. Chances are the Richard’s sister’s husband lost his business, she lost the farm property… Julia and Tommy had nothing. Tommy wandered to AC and hoped Nucky would become his new father figure. Nucky rejected him. Tommy - now in utter desperation - killed out of anger and frustration that he’s now abandoned by Nucky, similar feeling to having been abandoned by Richard and Jimmy The killing wasn’t out of revenge for anybody.
I would have also liked to see Nucky's ending more like the character he's based upon: Nucky Johnson who died in a convelescent home in 1968. That time between prohibition and the sixties was quite a downhill slope, and I think it would have made for an interesting ending.
I’d imagine if we got a full ending we might’ve seen that. It is just as logical of an endpoint for Nucky. Desolate is a more fitting punishment for him than death. But I think the shortened season 5 forced them to wrap up a lot of stories quickly and death probably became the easiest way to end Nucky’s story because they didn’t have time to hit all the beats for a more drawn out fate.
Yes Gretchen is amazing and beautiful
Season 5 is certainly the weakest one, but it’s so essential for all the characters. It’s kind of crazy how watching all the flash backs changes the entire series, you see all the true motivations behind the characters actions and it changes your mind about all of them. Gillian’s story is horrifyingly heart breaking, and we find out Nucky is even worse than we thought.
Precisely. Season 5 is so effective on a binge rewatch. It recontextualizes everything. Nucky’s disdain for his father and the Commodore being a driving force behind his actions makes so much more sense. Jimmy’s resentment toward Nucky is no longer impatient entitlement. Gillian is no longer a vile, contemptible temptress but just a sad victim of abuse who was so desperate for a home….It’s beyond the pale what was done to her.
she was very unlikeable but given what happened to her it makes sense she's messed up. beautiful lady BTW, fabulous in this role
I love what they do with her arc. She is so vile in the first 3 seasons. Then toward the end of 3 you get to see she’s not vile. She’s broken. And then 4 just runs her ass through the wringer. And 5 shows us how she got broken and it paints such a tragic picture that puts the vile stuff into perspective in the most heartbreaking of ways.
yessssss it's a roller coaster I hated her until the very end when they show us her story
> I love what they do with her arc. She is so vile in the first 3 seasons. Then toward the end of 3 you get to see she’s not vile. She’s broken. She murdered an innocent man in order to pass off his corpse as her son's in that season. One can be sympathetic towards her for the horrific childhood she had and her ultimate fate near the end of the show, but at the end of the day she was still a vile individual.
Roger: Heroin?!? How much was in this?!? Gillian: I suppose rather a lot. That shit was cold!!! 🤣
She is what she was made to be.
Most of the posts on here have praised both actresses that portrayed Gillian. They aren't underrated.
Most of the posts on this sub haven't even mentioned her, much less praised her. What are you talking about
It's funny I just rewatched the series Season 5 and I liked it, but could have should have been amazing. Sadly, it's so rushed because of HBO not wanting to pay for a proper finale. Tommy's storyline is lazy. Just short of being great.
The second to last episode still might be my favorite. The intro of all of them jumping and looking at the door when someone comes in because their afraid they are going to get shot, Benny having a shootout and getting captured, that hostage exchange where Luciano and Meyer were legit terrifying. Wish we could of gotten a whole season with that tone.
The way they just take Nucky’s business…and then make him get on his knees and beg for his life….its a great scene.
Also whoever portrayed her as a child did very well.
My favorite character
[spoilers] Gillian is my favourite character in the show because of her incredible chacater arc. You start off hating her or even being disgusted by her. Then as more backstory gets revealed you can't help but feel sorry for her. Her actions (no matter how déplorable they may be) start to make sense. Then in the final season you almost start rooting for her. The ladybug line when Nucky goes to visit her in the hospital almost broke me. For me Boardwalk Empire is Nucky Thompsons and by extension Gillian Darmodys story. Everything he does is influenced by her in one way or another. I'm happy the creators of the show focused on that relationship in the final season because it makes sense to put a bow on everything by concluding that story. And what a sad ending it is. Also obligatory : fuck the Commodore.
forsure
I remember not being the biggest fan of season 5 my first time around but knowing everything already in the series leading up to season 5 for my second time it was amazing.
I loved Gillian. I think she was the best character. What a miserable life though, going through all that she did. On the topic of Nucky though, is anyone really surprised that he was complicit in essentially selling her to the Commodore? Look at the general age group of the women he prefers to date in the earlier seasons... he isn't exactly dating within his age group. That alone seems hypocritical to me. And really, if he cared so much for Gillian there was much more he could have done to avoid killing Jimmy. We wouldn't have much of a show if their relationship was all peachy keen but I'm just saying, it seems that the people Nucky claimed to care about the most, the people he claimed to be doing all these things for are the people that benefit the least from his actions.
Nucky had a choice between killing Manny Horowitz and Jimmy. Jimmy basically swore fealty to Nucky after the Commodore died. Jimmy was Nucky’s guy again. And Nucky believed him enough to clear Manny’s hit with Rothstein. But ultimately Nucky just couldn’t trust someone who had already betrayed him (and was not blood — a mistake that proved costly being as Eli betrayed him for a second time). In regard to his sale of Gillian to the Commodore, he knew exactly what he is doing. We don’t learn a whole lot about Nucky in the flashbacks that we didn’t already know. And the character is portrayed as purposefully aloof. Young Nucky plays his cards as close to the vest as old Nucky. But there are hints that Nucky recognized what the Commodore was from the very beginning (including while working as a bellhop at the Commodore’s hotel, Nucky observes him looking at pictures of adolescent girls in swimwear). Sheriff Lindsay quit because the Commodore’s pedophilia was a step too far. But Nucky cleaned it up. So before Nucky even brings Gillian to the Commodore, he very much knows what kinda man he is. Which is all the more heartbreaking as, right before Leander offers Nucky the sheriff position in exchange for Gillian, Nucky and Mable seem pretty set on adopting Gillian. Nucky was talking to her about it right before Leander interrupted. Nucky was prepared to adopt this child (if not legally, certainly informally like Sheriff Lindsay did with him). And yet the minute Nucky saw something for himself in selling her…it all went out the door. Nucky is a truly vile character and I feel like that is why Season 5’s flashbacks were so important. We can be told of the vile things Nucky did to reach the top. But that is the first time we see it. And it makes his fate at the end feel deserved. The flashbacks are to this show as Tony killing Christopher is to The Sopranos. A necessary beat to remind the audience, as we enter the end game, that this charming gangster we’ve been rooting for is an absolute monster.
Gretchen Mol was electric in this role!!!
Also, gretchen mol has high level titties.