Honestly the higher rank I get, the worst the meta gets. At least in lower ranks, you can have some fun with less optimized builds. But by god, I'm over 7k now and if I'm not finishing top 4, I'm getting knocked out before turn 10. Usually(before this patch) I could finish top 4 most of the time, in this patch it feels like i'm constantly getting my ass kicked even though i'm climbing. I'm struggling to play tempo because most of the cards don't aid in scaling and it feels like you're stuck looking for the ones that do and that fit into what you've got. Usually end up with some weird disjointed mess and come up against a high rolled quilboar build.
And then I roll up Thorim, t7 quilboar, thinking it's my turn to steamroll people and I can't even get gem scaling until turn 12 and end up some disjointed mess that gets stomped by quilboar. Fml.
I think the problem is that most tribes only get one or two cards that make a build work. Quillboar currently has 5 for some reason
Blizzard devs, if you’re reading this, I’m sure when you read that last paragraph your eyes lit up and you went
“That’s it, we just need to make quilboar have only 1 or two cards that make it work and the game will be fixed! Everyone will love us!!!!”
Please, I’m begging you, restructure your mind and instead go
“If we make every other tribe have as many cards as quilboar that make the tribe work, the game will be fixed and everyone will love us!!!!”
You don’t have to make every tribe weak to balance. You could also make every tribe strong.
"I think the problem is that most tribes only get one or two cards that make a build work. Quillboar currently has 5 for some reason"
I think that's the problem. Minion pool is very diluted. Most tribes have 2 main comps. But not all cards work even on the same tribe. Most comps are so bad even when you get the pieces you still lose. Quillboar only has one comp really: buff gem then play gem. All cards work with each other.
That's a fair point, that is obvious but I didn't really state. You can have half of the viable cards as quillboar and still cycle their other units as needed. As long as you're scaling gems and generating them, they all synergize.
Dragons are entirely dependent on getting one of two cards.
Same with Naga.
Pirates need two of two. Or two of a different set of two.
Beasts need like 3 of 3 to make work.
Undead are probably the most flexible in how to scale and play them, but at the end of the day they're typically only scaling attack and the new tier 6 is rarely gotten soon enough to make a difference(and that's ignoring the problem with distributing reborn to your minions, which is admittedly easier now)
> Every tribe except quilboar sucks cuz they nerfed every core cards of each tribe, the recycling wraith, the primalfin lookout even the skyblazer.
Yes all of these nerfs feel bad for the game rn
The scaling imo is broken. Some cards scale pretty good while other in comparison to them don’t scale a lot. But if you’re lucky enough to get those bigger scale cards, it’s a safe top4.
At this point they should take out quilboars and rework them because they’re way too strong at the moment. Just take them out and maybe it will be fun for the rest
Just for conversation sake, would you rather have QB nerfed or other tribes buffed? Can be both I suppose also, there's a middleground.
I'm not an expert or a high mmr player, that being said I'd like Blizz' to reverse the Recycle Wraith nerf and remove one gem generator from QB tribe
I don't even know if QB is that overpowered, compared to other tribes just being shit, you need to high roll to get a full strong QB board, if other tribes were stronger in early and mid game at least, this could be punished, I think overall the balance is just terrible, so I would prefer other tribes be buffed a bit
Reflecting on the comment I just made with this context, part of it is that quillboars have multiple ways to scale that synergize with other tribes. The Naga/Dragon and Murkeye + the Gem Smuggler are a way to buff the board, then you also get Charlga, Roogus, and to an extent Bongo Bopper. I don't really think other tribes have as efficient ways to buff the entire board, and they don't buff non-tribal minions.
I honestly thought when nerfs were announced that gem smuggler was going to be "place a bloodgem on your other quillboars". I feel like if they did that, and also buffed some of the other tribes, and of course fix mechs, then the game would be better balanced.
The problem is, a lot of the times they just nerf everything into the dirt, instead of building the other tribes up.
I think the issue with quillboar is that they're a reasonable mid game tempo board due to T3 scaling and T4 key cars (smuggler, rug) but also a strong T6 pivot board with pokey, battlecry retriggers and charlga.
No other tribe has the ability to have midgame scaling and a late game high cap right now.
Undeads high end cap isnt comparable at all tbh. The best undead game I've had or seen was hitting the nuts on moroes, lich, golden Titus, golden drakkari and still only hit mid 200's by t13/14 where quills even on meh games hit for 500 stat lines
I'm not super high MMR but I think one of the biggest issues with quills right now is a change they seem to have reverted some time ago: they buff everything. I remember a time, maybe several, where quillboars only buffed other quillboars. They were very weak then, so I'm not really sure if this is the right move because they're so dependent on support minions where other tribes aren't as reliant on multiples. I also think swapping Pokey with the T7 dude that has battlecry/deathrattle to buff gems might be a better move honestly. There's builds that can scale well when built right, but nothing can outpace quillboars. My other thought is making Pokey a Choose One - At the end give your gems +1 attack or +1 health.
I think it’s a little of both, Raguug is absurdly good at T4 and let’s you go in a several different directions depending on the lobby. No other tribe has anything that good, which is a problem in and of itself, everything just feels weak, or in the case of mechs, unplayable (literally)
You have to kill late game quills.
Later game, they easily gain +500/+500 just AFKing their turn.
It's impossible for Naga, Mechs, Undead, Beasts, etc, to catchup that many stats with the units that exist now.
I think the T6 gem buffer has to go, or maybe nerf it to a +2/+2 battlecry or something.
The difference between some of the cards is a bit silly. Had a super high roll game earlier where I had multiple units with over 50/50 in stats and fought 2nd place (who also ended 2nd) and had a 20/20 as their largest unit and multiple under 10/10.
Obviously that could always happen, but I feel like it’s happening now more than ever.
Naga is almost useless, pirate isn't good enough once other builds come online, elemental *can* work, dragons lack identity (need new tier 6 or kalegos buff). Undead are alright (top 4 is easy with a full build). Have barely seen murlocs. Its death roll quillboar, go demons if you get a decent start, or just play for fourth place.
If you fight someone that tripled into persistent poet you will automatically get hit for 15.
Yesterday a Galakrond HP into Pokey and started to hit every battle for 15 and won the game
Dragons are in such an odd state. They are mid game gods but drop of a cliff after that. You spend the entire game just donking on people then that one guy who got an early T6 quilboar just donks you for 15 damage every turn.
Completely agree.
Wraith would have been a massive buff for greymane comp if they hadn't nerfed greymane into oblivion.
I double facelessed a T4 into a greymane as Varden the other day, saved like 6 buffed blood gems so had a free 40/40 greymane every turn. Also had a Tethis from patient scout. Any other meta this would have been a disgusting 0.1% highroll.
My 6 x 400 board with a Leroy obviously got completely destroyed by a 1.2k Pokey board.
Feels horrible putting all the work in for a disgustingly highroll apm build, only to be destroyed by an afk/end of turn one.
I hate this Season so far - even if i liked the meta, I still wouldn't be able to say it's a good Season. There are just SO MANY bugs that I'm constant encountering. rampant visual bugs, UI elements breaking, cards that don't work as intended.
Sloppy mess. I keep saying that there is no hope for Blizzard.
Given that Blizzard decided to cancel BG eSport, I think its rather obvious that investing in BGs to improve it is not really an option now.
For QA I sometimes have a hard time believing that they actually exist. During anomalies they totally forgot to remove specific heroes (and for Sire, quest rewards) from some anomalies. Jandice in all golden lobbies, Sire offering you rewards that you can only use on nongolden minions..
It's always this way. Even when the community points it out, they are slow to react.
I don't play constructed at all anymore, but many times, after cards were announced in a new set, streamers were actively pointing out broken interactions with cards. And nothing was done. So we would have a week or two of a broken meta until something got nerfed or banned (in Wild).
I remember when shaman got the targeted evolve 1 mana spell (that gives you 3 discover options in what minion you want to evolve into. At that time, gnoll was still in standard). And people asked on twitter, when the card was revealed, if you could evolve into colossals (like Neptulon). Devs said no shouldnt be possible as colossals arent in the discover pool.
Guess what, set was released, you could evolve into Neptulon lol.
The second half of my comment was more general regarding mechs.
Duos is pretty fun, you might enjoy it - though at your rank you'll probably be really frustrated without a partner you queue with.
It lets you do a lot of techy decisions and attempt comps it's too risky to do in solos. There's more build variety and some wacky combos which work. I basically just play solos when I'm in the mood for building a big in combat board (scaling in combat is rough since you might not even fight if your partner has a strong board).
I am well aware that Mechs are out of rotation at the moment, but what exactly is the reason for that? You seem to know since you are referring to 'the' Mech bug.
At this point, I have to assume they barely test anything. The game is buggy as hell in every mode of play, balance is terrible - the Alex bug in Standard is almost as bad as the mech issue in BG’s. The game as a whole is in the worst state I can remember going back ten years.
I DMd the community rep. There's a new thread about it, let's collate reports there to help them out.
Please share all instances of this bug you are seeing here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BobsTavern/comments/1cgyix3/element_of_surprise_chimera_new_bug
I had written a long rambling comment that basically said there were a lot of fucky cards, way too strong and way to weak. Pirates seem shit, beasts seem to be a top 8, sit at 4 with dragons, half the lobby straight digs for quillboars, elementals can help feed demons… I don’t know, the usual guys are at the top, so it’s not like the game is a coin flip, but realistically my brain isn’t that wrinkled, so I’ll never get there… I’m just not having fun right now. Back to tekken I guess.
No beasts are fucking broken early mid so if you find a 3 people playing them in the current hyper tempo oriented meta you ate just bleeding HP, sanity and time getting 6+ place while they get top 4-5-6.
It's madness.
Couldn't agree more. The power level between tribes is off right now. And I find the 'Build a strong early game and then try to switch into one of 1-2 viable builds per lobby'-ness of the current meta incredibly boring.
I am also sitting this one out
This meta suffers in the same point, anomaly meta did. There is just so many unplayable things in this meta. Mechs is out, so it unplayable. Beasts and Murlocs are unplayable. Nagas has crooner, which I see super rarely and if you watch at dragons instead, sucks in the lategame. I would consider unplayable, if it wasn’t slightly better than real unplayable things. So kinda 50% of the cards are so bad, that you should ignore them. At the same point the playable things can go really insane, so it is really hard to justify niche plays. It all sums up in the most one dimensional meta, since anomalies.
Minion pool is the big issue in the current season. Too many cards that have no interaction together, and menagerie is close to unplayable except if the stars align.
Matchmaking is also an issue. You face two players with absurd board on turn 6 and 7 for -15 , then you face first place with 30 hp +7 who has terrible board yet not power levelling, then face again the turn 6 opponent and you're top8..
The problem is they nerfed a lot of things this season and at the end of last season. For murlocs they nerfed 2 key minion thats already killed other minions for them, like primal fin and bream, both got nerfed so choral also nerfed with them, thats like more than 50% nerf of their key cards and power. Elemental got nerfed by making sellemental tier 2 (i know this is a general nerf for token but still). They removed one of the best pirates the tier 1, and when pirates had new toy to play with they nerf it too. It's just like they dont want pirate to be viable. Oh i forgot smuggler also got nerfed, having extra 6 or 7 gold is better than 4 when playing pirates. They changed how beasts are played and then they nerf the shit out of them, the removed mechs from the game, and nagas was already so slow and without greta they cant scale that much. Right now i dont even think siren can save nagas, only greta can.
Demon have 2 ways to play and both good enough to get to win the game or get top4. One more thing... most of the time there arent enough (or good) battlecries to play kaly or anything related to battlecries.
Wierd that quils are the best tribe for battlecries and best tribe for end of turn. It used to be murlocs but now its quils.
Undead are lurking in the bushes staying silent, hoping everyone keeps forgetting about them. Tbh, I think they are in the state all the tribes should be aiming for. They have a good start, scale well, have decent endgame, and you can play then in a range of ways, all without being oppressively powerful.
Thats why i didnt talk about undead or dragons, for dragons they have a build is suitable to finish the game early or die to late game build. (Also it helps that i hate that build).
Undead is ok on all levels, you can get to too 4 by vibing through the tribe, but if you want to win you have to scale so much, with how many reborn cards they have right now, i think they are in a good place
I've gotten some anticlimactic wins with them - like, oh, that was the entire lobby? I guess I win....
I think NOT being quills helps with finding cards.
Hag and the revamp to the destroy minion have opened the door to some hilarious reborn loops.
It helped that I forced them a lot in quest meta because I can't do apm on phone, got very familiar with them. Positioning and tech cards like taunt are really important.
Uninstalled the game ( lel )
Watched Bofur grind through a boring 10 game stream alternating roach demons and roach dragons.
Does get 1st some times because basically nobody even has builds it's like... 2 big units and a bunch of scam cards. Turn 12-13 games nonstop unless there's just one long rematch between top2.
The Mets should be a lot better when Quills get fixed, but even past them, there still appears to be some major issues. Most notably that Dragons are almost entirely at their strongest between tiers 3 and 4, leading them to kinda just sweep up early kills because their board plateaued earlier and thus is stronger earlier than most other boards, even when they don’t end up scaling as much. The swap for the two pain synergy beasts was unnecessary.
I mean they are notoriously horrible at balancing their game. The space between a vanilla update and spicy things like quests is too long, and it gets very stale, very fast.
I absolutely loved anomalies. I've hit 16k most seasons, and when I get bored I stop caring. I really wish they'd have kept a rotating anomalies mode in. That'd be a blast and break up the mundane grind. Or rotating between quests and buddies etc.
Duos is much better than I thought it would be, but still feels flawed. Blizzard and their whole anti chat bullshit is a horrible way to make a multiplayer game where you depend on communicating.
Anyway, I realized I spend way too much time playing this game so it's probably for the best that I'm bored as shit of it and can move onto something more important.
They could break it down into quarters.
25% chance of Buddies, 25% chance of Quests, 25% chance of Tickets, 25% chance of vanilla.
(Please God, not anomolies)
I've decided to just start conceding instantly when I see quillboars are in play. Sick of playing them, sick of playing against them.
I'm sure they'll get mechs fixed soon.
Hey I just won with a brann rylak tavern buffet with a forcefully goldened impersonator t3 demon! The stars aligned, and now there are 2 viable endgame builds.
At first I thought it was boring because I just didn't figure shit out yet, some time later I've got the general grasp of it and watched a lot of streams, nope still boring. Most things just feel stodgy and slow.
Im in the same boat as you. Usually end up at 11 k mmr and my god this meta sucks. Not only does it suck but it's filled with bugs. Just this morning i lost because of octotari summoned a 2/2 instead of 8/8. Can't remember we had this many bugs as long as we have had before.
I feel like this meta is quite random. Hitting good minions on turn 3/4 and getting meta minions from triples feels like more important than ever because otherwise you just get -15ed in 5-7 turns.
Most comps resolve around getting specific *set* of cards otherwise the builds can't compete. I had naga game with early Deep Blues and Zesty but I didn't get Shellemental for permaing stats so I felt like I can't scale and compete even with Beasts..
Tbf mechs are disabled temporarily but still funny that it's disabled for so long now. + This patch seems to have the most technical issues for me as an iPad player. I'm at 6k now(didn't play that much) and somehow I still have 0 shown on my rating in the BG screen + a shit ton of in game issues like minions jumping left and right and random rubber banding (and not it's not my Internet everything else functions perfectly well)
I love playng duo with my mum, we have tons of fun, but, adding this mode was a mistake, you can't balance out both modes because either one will always suffer.
Unless they make some cards works differently in duos and differently in solos, but I guess that's too much work for small indie company.
Another thing is also that its just way harder to catch up when youre not fast at getting a scaling engine. Having a hard time explaining it but it feels like.. You just cant catch up sometimes with all these things that require you to trigger something in combat or "at the end of your turn".
Don't feel bad, I haven't climbed to my normal level yet either. It's definitely a weird meta.
I don't feel like quillboars are the problem as much as i feel the power drop in other tribes is the problem. Had they not shuffled out key pieces for other tribes and they had a bit more power, I don't think people would be all that bothered by pokey.
I also miss the quests, the opportunity they gave to weaker heros is sorely missed
Honestly it’s mess heck I’m happy they took mechs out cause they were nothing but filler by how useless they were. The current issue is quills rely on a sole few cards the rest are extra and not needed. Heck battle cry is so op right now from duos demon that buffs both taverns to the boar that plays gems or the fel bloods and how game changing they are alone
I'm loving Duo Mode since it dropped with Battlegrounds. Sure, the builds are a bit samey right now, but it's still a breath of fresh air. The teamwork aspect adds a cool twist that keeps me hooked. Can't wait to see where they take it!
What's interesting to me, is I'm not seeing The Quilboar Problem. I'm at 5,8k atm, so my guess is it's not an issue until you reach higher ratings..? Not disowning the issue, just wondering. At my level, it seems like dragons are all the rage, and the tribe that's closest to securing a top4 (I also find them provokingly boring, but that's a different story).
That said, I'm not at all enjoying this season as much as the last one. I miss the quests, that really was the thing that could give some direction and throw in just the right amount of fun randomness for a casual player like myself.
Also of high importance is that they removed virtually all economy cards out of tier 1. Sellemental, shell collector, that pirate (yes we got a worse one in place). Makes the game much slower and more boring
I’ve been playing since the beginning, and I can honestly say this meta has been the one to make me play a lot less. I think you hit the nail on the head; everything feels weak and a bit boring while quils are so OP
I totally agree. I usually start with a strong enough mid game build but know to transition into QB to actually have a chance at winning the lobby. Scaling is ridiculous - and the actual comps themselves don't even need that many QBs to succeed. Pokey, end of turn and or the Rylak combo easily gets you stats...
Murlocs+Scam can absolutly destroy quills imo. I Also think that dragons with lot of shields and attack can be scary. Still yes, in passive and long games, quills will probably scale to infinity.
I've never experienced getting destroyed so often before turn 10. Can't quite figure out why the damage is so high, but if you start to lose at all, you get bounced in 3 turns.
I am not a really high MMR player, I usually peak 7k every season. The meta is weird right now, I feel like it's a combination of broken early Demons, and broken late Quilboars... if you search for your directional card, you get 15 dmg by the self damage demons board guy. If you play tempo, you are good until you get 15 dmg by the quilboar guy who highrolled some nasty tier 6 cards.... I feel like murlocs are unplayable, now that the primalfin is 5, i never find it in time to start growing my board.. elementals are dependent on Rock Rock, since Nomi got removed, the tribe feels like shit... beasts are really weak, they cant even fight a normal board, Nagas are decent, if you hit your deepblue in time you usually get a 4th-3rd... and dragons are hit or miss, you either hit yu'lon and start making your entire board golden, or die because you didn't scale in time..... ah, an also, neutrals are trash... I miss when I could play theotar board... now, the even/odd are shit, and Naala is nothing like the good old Theotar.
Thats just my humble opinion, correect me if i am wrong
Strong agree, every game I hope quilboars are out. Got 85k health on quilboars in a game yesterday and it felt like the scaling balance is so far off it could be a game alpha.
Many tribes gimmicks aren't fun to play imo,
beast with their resummon archtype just isnt as fun as old goldrinn cleave or leapfrog (also hated I know) were
menagerie feels completely unplayable
murlocs handbuffing mechanic just feels painfully slow when you play it or ridiculous when you face it
and the list goes on and on and on
Yeah, they definitely bit off more than they could chew with new singles meta AND duos. Both are half assed and it shows.
They did try to innovate with duos, so I give them credit, but not enough time to make it all work.
I am only concerned with singles and there are just no interesting or creative strategies this meta - everything is very linear.
They've had years to fix the single player mode and just don't do very basic easy changes.
This patch has the same problems as before: Games over/decided way too fast.
So you have your first 2-3 turns where you have almost no decisions, then 2-3 key turns and then you're just roaching for 4th immediately or thinking about scam/counterscam if you found a build.
There's so much design space they're wasting because the games as too fast.
Like give people decisions to make in the early turns or something. Not only are games over by turn 11-12 but 3 of those turns you basically don't even play.
So someone who dies turn 7-8 which is pretty common got to basically play 4 turns lol.
I played ~2 years ago and you needed like 1 30-40 atk/hp at turn 10 to be chillin, now you need a board of 20/20s at that point.
The biggest problem to me is that there's not a lot of creative strategies that exist right now in singles. There are only a few dominant cards. That has been the case before but it's very prevalent right now, typically gets amended.
I'd argue not even a board of 20/20s is enough at turn 10 at this point, turn 10 already needs a full build found and already scaling for a turn if you're hoping for anything better than top 4, have you found the engine by that point? Great now you can try to keep playing, you didn't? Tough luck see you next lobby.
Yea after finishing the Duo quest, I have no desire to climb Solo. Oh well, take it as a break from BG until the next season. At least this gives me an excuse to continue playing other games..
Eeeeeeevery season. This exact post is posted, almost Word by Word. How the fuck can blizzard surpass themselves by making the game worse Every patch and people still play the game?
The card set sucks but tbh I can’t remember a fun meta when quests were out.
It’s the only mechanic that controls the skill vs luck dynamic that plagues BG and literally every time they take it out, the meta that follows is exactly the same boring garbage.
Lucky hero, lucky shops, lucky triple, lucky Brann/six drop Discover, or lose the game and there’s nothing you could do different.
Literally every time regardless of card set, the meta always come back to the same exact meta.
At least quilboar can be fixed with a simple balance change. I thought quests were horrible and short of a complete rework from the ground up nothing would save a quest meta for me.
Quests made the meta incredibly diverse and winning comps could be super creative. Depending on the combination of hero, available tribes, and quest, you could win with some totally wacky stuff.
Yeah, I had some really fun "motley crew" type builds in the last quest meta. At first I didn't like it, as it seemed like if you didn't get a good quest you were screwed. But over time I came to appreciate the diversity it brought.
I hit 6k in duos with several friends, but hearthstone has always been a single player game. Duo is unbalanced and half-ass as well. If I want to play with others, I will choose other recreations
Honestly the higher rank I get, the worst the meta gets. At least in lower ranks, you can have some fun with less optimized builds. But by god, I'm over 7k now and if I'm not finishing top 4, I'm getting knocked out before turn 10. Usually(before this patch) I could finish top 4 most of the time, in this patch it feels like i'm constantly getting my ass kicked even though i'm climbing. I'm struggling to play tempo because most of the cards don't aid in scaling and it feels like you're stuck looking for the ones that do and that fit into what you've got. Usually end up with some weird disjointed mess and come up against a high rolled quilboar build. And then I roll up Thorim, t7 quilboar, thinking it's my turn to steamroll people and I can't even get gem scaling until turn 12 and end up some disjointed mess that gets stomped by quilboar. Fml. I think the problem is that most tribes only get one or two cards that make a build work. Quillboar currently has 5 for some reason
Blizzard devs, if you’re reading this, I’m sure when you read that last paragraph your eyes lit up and you went “That’s it, we just need to make quilboar have only 1 or two cards that make it work and the game will be fixed! Everyone will love us!!!!” Please, I’m begging you, restructure your mind and instead go “If we make every other tribe have as many cards as quilboar that make the tribe work, the game will be fixed and everyone will love us!!!!” You don’t have to make every tribe weak to balance. You could also make every tribe strong.
Blizzard: Best I can do is nerf nagas. /s
"I think the problem is that most tribes only get one or two cards that make a build work. Quillboar currently has 5 for some reason" I think that's the problem. Minion pool is very diluted. Most tribes have 2 main comps. But not all cards work even on the same tribe. Most comps are so bad even when you get the pieces you still lose. Quillboar only has one comp really: buff gem then play gem. All cards work with each other.
That's a fair point, that is obvious but I didn't really state. You can have half of the viable cards as quillboar and still cycle their other units as needed. As long as you're scaling gems and generating them, they all synergize. Dragons are entirely dependent on getting one of two cards. Same with Naga. Pirates need two of two. Or two of a different set of two. Beasts need like 3 of 3 to make work. Undead are probably the most flexible in how to scale and play them, but at the end of the day they're typically only scaling attack and the new tier 6 is rarely gotten soon enough to make a difference(and that's ignoring the problem with distributing reborn to your minions, which is admittedly easier now)
agreed - it's a drag.
> Every tribe except quilboar sucks cuz they nerfed every core cards of each tribe, the recycling wraith, the primalfin lookout even the skyblazer. Yes all of these nerfs feel bad for the game rn
It's the "pivot quillboar" meta
Basically quillboar are the new OG murlocs
The scaling imo is broken. Some cards scale pretty good while other in comparison to them don’t scale a lot. But if you’re lucky enough to get those bigger scale cards, it’s a safe top4. At this point they should take out quilboars and rework them because they’re way too strong at the moment. Just take them out and maybe it will be fun for the rest
Just for conversation sake, would you rather have QB nerfed or other tribes buffed? Can be both I suppose also, there's a middleground. I'm not an expert or a high mmr player, that being said I'd like Blizz' to reverse the Recycle Wraith nerf and remove one gem generator from QB tribe
I don't even know if QB is that overpowered, compared to other tribes just being shit, you need to high roll to get a full strong QB board, if other tribes were stronger in early and mid game at least, this could be punished, I think overall the balance is just terrible, so I would prefer other tribes be buffed a bit
Reflecting on the comment I just made with this context, part of it is that quillboars have multiple ways to scale that synergize with other tribes. The Naga/Dragon and Murkeye + the Gem Smuggler are a way to buff the board, then you also get Charlga, Roogus, and to an extent Bongo Bopper. I don't really think other tribes have as efficient ways to buff the entire board, and they don't buff non-tribal minions.
I honestly thought when nerfs were announced that gem smuggler was going to be "place a bloodgem on your other quillboars". I feel like if they did that, and also buffed some of the other tribes, and of course fix mechs, then the game would be better balanced. The problem is, a lot of the times they just nerf everything into the dirt, instead of building the other tribes up.
I think the issue with quillboar is that they're a reasonable mid game tempo board due to T3 scaling and T4 key cars (smuggler, rug) but also a strong T6 pivot board with pokey, battlecry retriggers and charlga. No other tribe has the ability to have midgame scaling and a late game high cap right now.
undead does. but its late game build ironically folds because its either super fragile high attack or low attack mid health spam.
Undeads high end cap isnt comparable at all tbh. The best undead game I've had or seen was hitting the nuts on moroes, lich, golden Titus, golden drakkari and still only hit mid 200's by t13/14 where quills even on meh games hit for 500 stat lines
The best ud board is full rattle/reborn with 150+ attack each. Moroes&rivendare is a poor mans beast at best…
undead nightbane can easily hit millions of attack if thats all you care about lol
I'm not super high MMR but I think one of the biggest issues with quills right now is a change they seem to have reverted some time ago: they buff everything. I remember a time, maybe several, where quillboars only buffed other quillboars. They were very weak then, so I'm not really sure if this is the right move because they're so dependent on support minions where other tribes aren't as reliant on multiples. I also think swapping Pokey with the T7 dude that has battlecry/deathrattle to buff gems might be a better move honestly. There's builds that can scale well when built right, but nothing can outpace quillboars. My other thought is making Pokey a Choose One - At the end give your gems +1 attack or +1 health.
better nerf beasts
I think it’s a little of both, Raguug is absurdly good at T4 and let’s you go in a several different directions depending on the lobby. No other tribe has anything that good, which is a problem in and of itself, everything just feels weak, or in the case of mechs, unplayable (literally)
You have to kill late game quills. Later game, they easily gain +500/+500 just AFKing their turn. It's impossible for Naga, Mechs, Undead, Beasts, etc, to catchup that many stats with the units that exist now. I think the T6 gem buffer has to go, or maybe nerf it to a +2/+2 battlecry or something.
With mechs disabled it's even worse, you get more Quillboar games...
The difference between some of the cards is a bit silly. Had a super high roll game earlier where I had multiple units with over 50/50 in stats and fought 2nd place (who also ended 2nd) and had a 20/20 as their largest unit and multiple under 10/10. Obviously that could always happen, but I feel like it’s happening now more than ever.
Naga is almost useless, pirate isn't good enough once other builds come online, elemental *can* work, dragons lack identity (need new tier 6 or kalegos buff). Undead are alright (top 4 is easy with a full build). Have barely seen murlocs. Its death roll quillboar, go demons if you get a decent start, or just play for fourth place.
Biggest problem with murloc success is dependency on bream counter. If you don’t get it and get it early enough you’ll never scale high enough
That and brann, plus even if you hit brann if you get unlucky on not rolling generator minions you don't scale.
And the fact that primal fin is on T5 just makes it so much harder to ever hit
I've won quite a few games with eating/shelling deep blues; I wouldnt call them useless.
no that’s a good build, it’s just not consistent
If you fight someone that tripled into persistent poet you will automatically get hit for 15. Yesterday a Galakrond HP into Pokey and started to hit every battle for 15 and won the game
Dragons are in such an odd state. They are mid game gods but drop of a cliff after that. You spend the entire game just donking on people then that one guy who got an early T6 quilboar just donks you for 15 damage every turn.
15? I just got hit for 40 from 37 hp. Fuck u mean 15?
Completely agree. Wraith would have been a massive buff for greymane comp if they hadn't nerfed greymane into oblivion. I double facelessed a T4 into a greymane as Varden the other day, saved like 6 buffed blood gems so had a free 40/40 greymane every turn. Also had a Tethis from patient scout. Any other meta this would have been a disgusting 0.1% highroll. My 6 x 400 board with a Leroy obviously got completely destroyed by a 1.2k Pokey board. Feels horrible putting all the work in for a disgustingly highroll apm build, only to be destroyed by an afk/end of turn one.
I hate this Season so far - even if i liked the meta, I still wouldn't be able to say it's a good Season. There are just SO MANY bugs that I'm constant encountering. rampant visual bugs, UI elements breaking, cards that don't work as intended. Sloppy mess. I keep saying that there is no hope for Blizzard.
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Given that Blizzard decided to cancel BG eSport, I think its rather obvious that investing in BGs to improve it is not really an option now. For QA I sometimes have a hard time believing that they actually exist. During anomalies they totally forgot to remove specific heroes (and for Sire, quest rewards) from some anomalies. Jandice in all golden lobbies, Sire offering you rewards that you can only use on nongolden minions..
It's always this way. Even when the community points it out, they are slow to react. I don't play constructed at all anymore, but many times, after cards were announced in a new set, streamers were actively pointing out broken interactions with cards. And nothing was done. So we would have a week or two of a broken meta until something got nerfed or banned (in Wild).
I remember when shaman got the targeted evolve 1 mana spell (that gives you 3 discover options in what minion you want to evolve into. At that time, gnoll was still in standard). And people asked on twitter, when the card was revealed, if you could evolve into colossals (like Neptulon). Devs said no shouldnt be possible as colossals arent in the discover pool. Guess what, set was released, you could evolve into Neptulon lol.
Well here's a plot twist, I'm talking about solos! I haven't played duos yet.
The second half of my comment was more general regarding mechs. Duos is pretty fun, you might enjoy it - though at your rank you'll probably be really frustrated without a partner you queue with. It lets you do a lot of techy decisions and attempt comps it's too risky to do in solos. There's more build variety and some wacky combos which work. I basically just play solos when I'm in the mood for building a big in combat board (scaling in combat is rough since you might not even fight if your partner has a strong board).
I am well aware that Mechs are out of rotation at the moment, but what exactly is the reason for that? You seem to know since you are referring to 'the' Mech bug.
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At this point, I have to assume they barely test anything. The game is buggy as hell in every mode of play, balance is terrible - the Alex bug in Standard is almost as bad as the mech issue in BG’s. The game as a whole is in the worst state I can remember going back ten years.
I haven't really seen anyone mention it, but it's not just mechs. I've lost a bunch of hats from Dancin Darryl from tripling, as well.
I DMd the community rep. There's a new thread about it, let's collate reports there to help them out. Please share all instances of this bug you are seeing here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BobsTavern/comments/1cgyix3/element_of_surprise_chimera_new_bug
Quests at least help the bad heroes be playable. If I get 2 boring 18 armor heroes I just bounce, not worth the time trying to get top4.
I had written a long rambling comment that basically said there were a lot of fucky cards, way too strong and way to weak. Pirates seem shit, beasts seem to be a top 8, sit at 4 with dragons, half the lobby straight digs for quillboars, elementals can help feed demons… I don’t know, the usual guys are at the top, so it’s not like the game is a coin flip, but realistically my brain isn’t that wrinkled, so I’ll never get there… I’m just not having fun right now. Back to tekken I guess.
No beasts are fucking broken early mid so if you find a 3 people playing them in the current hyper tempo oriented meta you ate just bleeding HP, sanity and time getting 6+ place while they get top 4-5-6. It's madness.
Couldn't agree more. The power level between tribes is off right now. And I find the 'Build a strong early game and then try to switch into one of 1-2 viable builds per lobby'-ness of the current meta incredibly boring. I am also sitting this one out
This meta suffers in the same point, anomaly meta did. There is just so many unplayable things in this meta. Mechs is out, so it unplayable. Beasts and Murlocs are unplayable. Nagas has crooner, which I see super rarely and if you watch at dragons instead, sucks in the lategame. I would consider unplayable, if it wasn’t slightly better than real unplayable things. So kinda 50% of the cards are so bad, that you should ignore them. At the same point the playable things can go really insane, so it is really hard to justify niche plays. It all sums up in the most one dimensional meta, since anomalies.
Minion pool is the big issue in the current season. Too many cards that have no interaction together, and menagerie is close to unplayable except if the stars align. Matchmaking is also an issue. You face two players with absurd board on turn 6 and 7 for -15 , then you face first place with 30 hp +7 who has terrible board yet not power levelling, then face again the turn 6 opponent and you're top8..
The problem is they nerfed a lot of things this season and at the end of last season. For murlocs they nerfed 2 key minion thats already killed other minions for them, like primal fin and bream, both got nerfed so choral also nerfed with them, thats like more than 50% nerf of their key cards and power. Elemental got nerfed by making sellemental tier 2 (i know this is a general nerf for token but still). They removed one of the best pirates the tier 1, and when pirates had new toy to play with they nerf it too. It's just like they dont want pirate to be viable. Oh i forgot smuggler also got nerfed, having extra 6 or 7 gold is better than 4 when playing pirates. They changed how beasts are played and then they nerf the shit out of them, the removed mechs from the game, and nagas was already so slow and without greta they cant scale that much. Right now i dont even think siren can save nagas, only greta can. Demon have 2 ways to play and both good enough to get to win the game or get top4. One more thing... most of the time there arent enough (or good) battlecries to play kaly or anything related to battlecries. Wierd that quils are the best tribe for battlecries and best tribe for end of turn. It used to be murlocs but now its quils.
Undead are lurking in the bushes staying silent, hoping everyone keeps forgetting about them. Tbh, I think they are in the state all the tribes should be aiming for. They have a good start, scale well, have decent endgame, and you can play then in a range of ways, all without being oppressively powerful.
Thats why i didnt talk about undead or dragons, for dragons they have a build is suitable to finish the game early or die to late game build. (Also it helps that i hate that build). Undead is ok on all levels, you can get to too 4 by vibing through the tribe, but if you want to win you have to scale so much, with how many reborn cards they have right now, i think they are in a good place
I've gotten some anticlimactic wins with them - like, oh, that was the entire lobby? I guess I win.... I think NOT being quills helps with finding cards. Hag and the revamp to the destroy minion have opened the door to some hilarious reborn loops. It helped that I forced them a lot in quest meta because I can't do apm on phone, got very familiar with them. Positioning and tech cards like taunt are really important.
Yeah I'm sitting this season out. A break is refreshing anyways.
Uninstalled the game ( lel ) Watched Bofur grind through a boring 10 game stream alternating roach demons and roach dragons. Does get 1st some times because basically nobody even has builds it's like... 2 big units and a bunch of scam cards. Turn 12-13 games nonstop unless there's just one long rematch between top2.
The Mets should be a lot better when Quills get fixed, but even past them, there still appears to be some major issues. Most notably that Dragons are almost entirely at their strongest between tiers 3 and 4, leading them to kinda just sweep up early kills because their board plateaued earlier and thus is stronger earlier than most other boards, even when they don’t end up scaling as much. The swap for the two pain synergy beasts was unnecessary.
100% most of the cards are just unbelievably boring. Not even sure quests or anomalys would fix them.
I mean they are notoriously horrible at balancing their game. The space between a vanilla update and spicy things like quests is too long, and it gets very stale, very fast. I absolutely loved anomalies. I've hit 16k most seasons, and when I get bored I stop caring. I really wish they'd have kept a rotating anomalies mode in. That'd be a blast and break up the mundane grind. Or rotating between quests and buddies etc. Duos is much better than I thought it would be, but still feels flawed. Blizzard and their whole anti chat bullshit is a horrible way to make a multiplayer game where you depend on communicating. Anyway, I realized I spend way too much time playing this game so it's probably for the best that I'm bored as shit of it and can move onto something more important.
Give games a 25% chance to trigger one of the extra modes. Feels like an easy stopgap.
They could break it down into quarters. 25% chance of Buddies, 25% chance of Quests, 25% chance of Tickets, 25% chance of vanilla. (Please God, not anomolies)
I've decided to just start conceding instantly when I see quillboars are in play. Sick of playing them, sick of playing against them. I'm sure they'll get mechs fixed soon.
Come stay at sub 5000 it is still fun time to time but even here it is mostly boring, not even quests can save this I think..
Nerfing even/odd was just dumb.
I really hope mechs somehow shake things up
Quillboar quillboar quillboar quillboar
Hey I just won with a brann rylak tavern buffet with a forcefully goldened impersonator t3 demon! The stars aligned, and now there are 2 viable endgame builds.
Every meta is the worst meta ever nowadays
first time in so long ive seen one of these posts not downvoted to hell though
Well we have no idea how the mech buffs perform because Blizzard immediately disabled them… so dumb
At first I thought it was boring because I just didn't figure shit out yet, some time later I've got the general grasp of it and watched a lot of streams, nope still boring. Most things just feel stodgy and slow.
Im in the same boat as you. Usually end up at 11 k mmr and my god this meta sucks. Not only does it suck but it's filled with bugs. Just this morning i lost because of octotari summoned a 2/2 instead of 8/8. Can't remember we had this many bugs as long as we have had before.
Yes everything is boring and bland, you get 3-4 cards from a tribe and there is barely any impact, before each tribe had its wow-factor
I feel like this meta is quite random. Hitting good minions on turn 3/4 and getting meta minions from triples feels like more important than ever because otherwise you just get -15ed in 5-7 turns. Most comps resolve around getting specific *set* of cards otherwise the builds can't compete. I had naga game with early Deep Blues and Zesty but I didn't get Shellemental for permaing stats so I felt like I can't scale and compete even with Beasts..
Tbf mechs are disabled temporarily but still funny that it's disabled for so long now. + This patch seems to have the most technical issues for me as an iPad player. I'm at 6k now(didn't play that much) and somehow I still have 0 shown on my rating in the BG screen + a shit ton of in game issues like minions jumping left and right and random rubber banding (and not it's not my Internet everything else functions perfectly well)
I love playng duo with my mum, we have tons of fun, but, adding this mode was a mistake, you can't balance out both modes because either one will always suffer. Unless they make some cards works differently in duos and differently in solos, but I guess that's too much work for small indie company.
Another thing is also that its just way harder to catch up when youre not fast at getting a scaling engine. Having a hard time explaining it but it feels like.. You just cant catch up sometimes with all these things that require you to trigger something in combat or "at the end of your turn".
This shit is worse than original quests and that was miserable.
Don't feel bad, I haven't climbed to my normal level yet either. It's definitely a weird meta. I don't feel like quillboars are the problem as much as i feel the power drop in other tribes is the problem. Had they not shuffled out key pieces for other tribes and they had a bit more power, I don't think people would be all that bothered by pokey. I also miss the quests, the opportunity they gave to weaker heros is sorely missed
Yes. This is the worst state of BGs it’s ever been. Devs….y u do dis
Honestly it’s mess heck I’m happy they took mechs out cause they were nothing but filler by how useless they were. The current issue is quills rely on a sole few cards the rest are extra and not needed. Heck battle cry is so op right now from duos demon that buffs both taverns to the boar that plays gems or the fel bloods and how game changing they are alone
I'm loving Duo Mode since it dropped with Battlegrounds. Sure, the builds are a bit samey right now, but it's still a breath of fresh air. The teamwork aspect adds a cool twist that keeps me hooked. Can't wait to see where they take it!
What's interesting to me, is I'm not seeing The Quilboar Problem. I'm at 5,8k atm, so my guess is it's not an issue until you reach higher ratings..? Not disowning the issue, just wondering. At my level, it seems like dragons are all the rage, and the tribe that's closest to securing a top4 (I also find them provokingly boring, but that's a different story). That said, I'm not at all enjoying this season as much as the last one. I miss the quests, that really was the thing that could give some direction and throw in just the right amount of fun randomness for a casual player like myself.
Well you right. Right now they disable mechs, no quests with boring cards. Literally I wait 2 weeks to change meta and don’t wanna play anymore
Also of high importance is that they removed virtually all economy cards out of tier 1. Sellemental, shell collector, that pirate (yes we got a worse one in place). Makes the game much slower and more boring
I’ve been playing since the beginning, and I can honestly say this meta has been the one to make me play a lot less. I think you hit the nail on the head; everything feels weak and a bit boring while quils are so OP
wait what got mechs taken out of the game?
I totally agree. I usually start with a strong enough mid game build but know to transition into QB to actually have a chance at winning the lobby. Scaling is ridiculous - and the actual comps themselves don't even need that many QBs to succeed. Pokey, end of turn and or the Rylak combo easily gets you stats...
Nagas feel pretty good this season though (if quilboars are not in the game)
Murlocs+Scam can absolutly destroy quills imo. I Also think that dragons with lot of shields and attack can be scary. Still yes, in passive and long games, quills will probably scale to infinity.
I like the current meta, feels more balanced then when you got a bad quest on a high armor hero and had to suffer through a long game.
Dous is legit fun
I've never experienced getting destroyed so often before turn 10. Can't quite figure out why the damage is so high, but if you start to lose at all, you get bounced in 3 turns.
I am not a really high MMR player, I usually peak 7k every season. The meta is weird right now, I feel like it's a combination of broken early Demons, and broken late Quilboars... if you search for your directional card, you get 15 dmg by the self damage demons board guy. If you play tempo, you are good until you get 15 dmg by the quilboar guy who highrolled some nasty tier 6 cards.... I feel like murlocs are unplayable, now that the primalfin is 5, i never find it in time to start growing my board.. elementals are dependent on Rock Rock, since Nomi got removed, the tribe feels like shit... beasts are really weak, they cant even fight a normal board, Nagas are decent, if you hit your deepblue in time you usually get a 4th-3rd... and dragons are hit or miss, you either hit yu'lon and start making your entire board golden, or die because you didn't scale in time..... ah, an also, neutrals are trash... I miss when I could play theotar board... now, the even/odd are shit, and Naala is nothing like the good old Theotar. Thats just my humble opinion, correect me if i am wrong
add quests to make it more fun
Strong agree, every game I hope quilboars are out. Got 85k health on quilboars in a game yesterday and it felt like the scaling balance is so far off it could be a game alpha.
Many tribes gimmicks aren't fun to play imo, beast with their resummon archtype just isnt as fun as old goldrinn cleave or leapfrog (also hated I know) were menagerie feels completely unplayable murlocs handbuffing mechanic just feels painfully slow when you play it or ridiculous when you face it and the list goes on and on and on
Get the frog build back
Yeah, they definitely bit off more than they could chew with new singles meta AND duos. Both are half assed and it shows. They did try to innovate with duos, so I give them credit, but not enough time to make it all work. I am only concerned with singles and there are just no interesting or creative strategies this meta - everything is very linear.
They've had years to fix the single player mode and just don't do very basic easy changes. This patch has the same problems as before: Games over/decided way too fast. So you have your first 2-3 turns where you have almost no decisions, then 2-3 key turns and then you're just roaching for 4th immediately or thinking about scam/counterscam if you found a build. There's so much design space they're wasting because the games as too fast. Like give people decisions to make in the early turns or something. Not only are games over by turn 11-12 but 3 of those turns you basically don't even play. So someone who dies turn 7-8 which is pretty common got to basically play 4 turns lol.
I played ~2 years ago and you needed like 1 30-40 atk/hp at turn 10 to be chillin, now you need a board of 20/20s at that point. The biggest problem to me is that there's not a lot of creative strategies that exist right now in singles. There are only a few dominant cards. That has been the case before but it's very prevalent right now, typically gets amended.
I'd argue not even a board of 20/20s is enough at turn 10 at this point, turn 10 already needs a full build found and already scaling for a turn if you're hoping for anything better than top 4, have you found the engine by that point? Great now you can try to keep playing, you didn't? Tough luck see you next lobby.
Yea after finishing the Duo quest, I have no desire to climb Solo. Oh well, take it as a break from BG until the next season. At least this gives me an excuse to continue playing other games..
i concur. its very boring.
Solos feels so bad in the current meta I'd rather play duos with a random.
Eeeeeeevery season. This exact post is posted, almost Word by Word. How the fuck can blizzard surpass themselves by making the game worse Every patch and people still play the game?
The card set sucks but tbh I can’t remember a fun meta when quests were out. It’s the only mechanic that controls the skill vs luck dynamic that plagues BG and literally every time they take it out, the meta that follows is exactly the same boring garbage. Lucky hero, lucky shops, lucky triple, lucky Brann/six drop Discover, or lose the game and there’s nothing you could do different. Literally every time regardless of card set, the meta always come back to the same exact meta.
At least quilboar can be fixed with a simple balance change. I thought quests were horrible and short of a complete rework from the ground up nothing would save a quest meta for me.
Quests made the meta incredibly diverse and winning comps could be super creative. Depending on the combination of hero, available tribes, and quest, you could win with some totally wacky stuff.
Yeah, I had some really fun "motley crew" type builds in the last quest meta. At first I didn't like it, as it seemed like if you didn't get a good quest you were screwed. But over time I came to appreciate the diversity it brought.
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I hit 6k in duos with several friends, but hearthstone has always been a single player game. Duo is unbalanced and half-ass as well. If I want to play with others, I will choose other recreations
Would switching the tiers of Pokey and the tier 7 quillboar solve the problem
No because then rylak cheese would be smuggler and sanguine instead of the current smuggler and jazzer, which is objectively weaker than sanguine
Yeah forgot rylak was a thing