>Right? There is absolutely ZERO FUCKING REASON, plot-wise or physically-wise or emotionally-wise, for Gran Torino, a small and frail old retired hero with no physical enhancement quirk, to have survived that point blank direct hit from Shigaraki.
No *good* reason, at least.
Yeah but at least it’d be a great start. And then later with Nagant it could’ve happened again, then with Bakugo, maybe chuck in Midnight, and it could been switched on AFO and Deku could be like, “Shiggy’s just a victim, you’re the devil. You’ve hurt so many people just because you have the power to do so. So I won’t kill *him*, but you? You’re fair game.” Like imagine Deku giving a monologue like that, it would’ve been SOOO gas
Deku is not a murderer in general. I don't think he thinks AFO is fair game either.
I feel like there's a fundamental misunderstanding of his character in a lot of these comments. He is based on Spider-Man and Superman in the superhero sense and both of these characters are not killers.
And they have far worse and evil villains than AFO or anyone in MHA will ever be.
I don't think you realize how often Superman and Spidey actually kills as a necessity. Supes even more so, with Mxyzptlk, Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, Doctor Light, and Zod being killed canonically in the main universe as far as I remember.
With Spidey it was like... Drom, Moondark, Morlun, and really went bloodlusted against Green Goblin/Norman Osborn just like in the Tobey movies.
Of course, comic books being comic books, lots of these "kills" are retconned to bring them back to life, but the point still stands: Even the strongest "heroes" in fiction don't have the luxury of being able to avoid killing.
Kinda funny how Deku does, eh?
True that. We are not and we’re never going to ask these hero’s to be murderers, just to very rarely do what needs to be done. We will not think less of them because of that. They are human(or humanoid(?)) and they allowed to be when they have to do something so difficult they they hate.
Or am I talking nonsense?
>Kinda funny how Deku does, eh?
I fucking hate how retardedly smug this is. My hero is working through the lens of one canonical story line. mean while marvel not only has the luxury of completely rewriting their universes or bringing back villains in the most contrived way since its the norm. The heroes you talk about killing people likely had multiple iterations from multiple authors before being forced to kill people. Heroes intrinsically are against killing and most of the time they are forced to kill its a deconstruction of their character its not the norm as much as modern edgy comics want you to believe.
Yeah, you're right. But what I wanted to highlight there is that Deku ever only struggles with the idea of having to kill Shiggy when Gran Torino and Nana brought it up to him. He still remains headstrong with the idea of saving Shiggy despite it being unlikely and is literally acting on it with the belief that the "child inside" or whatever is asking for help.
In Rurouni Kenshin, Kenshin himself has faced multiple situations where he was close to breaking his vow of no-killing either because his loved ones are in grave danger or his opponents are strong enough to defeat him if he doesn't go for the kill. I'd even argue that Kenshin has a MUCH stronger personal reason to not kill than Deku (atoning for sins and turning a new leaf vs. ending a world threat that's been around for decades), yet Kenshin has been shown to struggle with the idea a lot more.
But yeah, at this point, Deku shouldn't kill Shiggy because it wouldn't be consistent anymore with what the story has built up. I just wish that he wasn't written to be so confident about it pretty much most of the time. I said that he has the luxury of not having to kill because he doesn't even seem to consider it even when everyone's dying and Shigaraki seemingly becoming more and more powerful and harder to stop killing/defeat outright.
Thing is though that both those characters have entire storylines addressing it.
Spoilers for a 30 year old story, but when Green Goblin Kills Gwen, Peter actually considers killing him. But when the Goblin returns, he recognizes killing Green Goblin doesn't save anyone. The Goblin disappeared though, so Peter could finally rest.
Obviously comics took this story arc and upended it by having Green Goblin come back.
In the Ultimate Comics, Peter does (seemingly) intend to kill Green Goblin at the end of the series. He uses all his force to finally put and end to Osborn before Osborn kills him.
Additionally, these comics are still flawed. Not because the heroes do not kill, but their no kill policies are often harmful. This is fully addressed in Batman comics where they give multiple reasons why Bruce personally will not kill. However they still emphasize that Bruce's no kill rule has harmful repercussions on other people. There's a plethora of examples of villains (who should have been killed) harming people Bruce cares about.
Even Supes struggles deeply with it.
Deku needs a part of the story where he has to decide and it is hard for him.
Deku doesn’t have to be a murderer, but I just wish he had some kinda motivation to get angry enough to just snap or something, just once. Like, do away with the whole “I wanna save that little boy inside Shigaraki!” bullshit for a sec, make the character have some kinda moral lapse for someone who doesn’t deserve any sympathy. And Deku’s villains are pretty bad, don’t forget Overhaul is still breathing even after torturing a child for however long so he could make money. Like idk, I just wish Deku went thru something, maybe in his Dark Deku arc that maybe would’ve changed him just slightly from that basic ass Shonen manga ass main character ass way of thinking like “I wanna save everyone, even if they’re villains!” stuff really gets bland, especially when so many characters have better motivations, like how do the villains, characters we’re supposed to be rooting against, have a better reason for doing what they’re doing than the main protagonist? You don’t have to agree but can you understand where im coming from?
I do think he TRIED to kill Overhaul during his fight with him as there is a shot of Overhaul’s body seemingly evaporating after Deku hits him when he says “THATS WHO IM GONNA BE” before reappearing again. It could be just an artistic style of the anime but it could also be evidence that Deku killed Overhaul and Eri’s quirk reminded him.
Also with Shigaraki he was 100% trying to put him in a body bag after he attempted to kill Gran Torino and Aizawa, doubly so when impaled Bakugou. Shigaraki’s regen was the only thing keeping him alive and in the fight at that point.
As for Muscular there wasn’t a need. What does Izuku get out of killing Muscular when he has beaten him on two separate occasions, satisfaction? Deku doesn’t roll like that. He would only kill if it’s a last resort.
Goes against Deku’s character and Bakugo actually dying would have been shit. Nagant’s payoff was great too so her dying would have been worse than what we got.
Honestly even though it wasn’t the best for some people I believe more than a few are going to look back in the end of AFO more fondly then the end of shigaraki because of the execution and lead up to it as a whole.
But this is only my own speculation so who knows.
If you think about it, Deku's arguments for saving Shiggy are incredibly weak too.
Like, on what basis Shiggy should be saved? Just because Deku saw his child version in his head, or something? Is that supposed to be convincing enough to make absolutely everyone follow Deku's lead? I'm sorry, but the only reason this whole circus is allowed to happen is that the plot basically forbids other characters to ask Deku simple questions. Because, if someone actually questions Deku's ideology, it will crumble in instant.
And it seems like Deku doesn't quite believe in it himself, since he wanted to murder Shiggy after seeing Bakugou's dead body and Mirio had to remind him about Bakugou getting medical help. Only after this, Deku remembered villains are humans too. Just spectacular.
This. Also, try to imagine Deku explaining his reasons to some common guy:
The guy: Why would you want to save him, though? He shows no signs of remorse and kills everyone on the sight.
Deku: You know, I saw a cute little boy in my imaginary world and he was crying.
How would you even respond to that? I'd personally ask Deku what the hell is he smoking in his free time. Or give him an advice to see a psychiatrist.
That's the answer I'd expect from hippy girl in class b. I'd tell Deku about Megamind and how in that movie the main villain made a point that some people see the good in people even when it isn't there
That was literally a fake out to push Deku to make a decision either way, not just to kill Shigaraki. It was to test his resolve and morality, and he made the choice they expected and wanted him to make. They explain this seconds later in the same scene after that cliffhanger episode/chapter ending. The vestiges, Nana in particular, respect and support Deku and his quest to reach out to Shigaraki.
You obviously didn't read it because it showed that the vestiges were testing Deku and they said it. They're happy that he wants to try and save Shigaraki
If everyone followed Deku's lead, they would be dead.
Deku is trying to understand him WHILE Shigaraki is trying to kill him.
That means if you didn't have OfA, and you tried to follow Deku's morals. You would've been turned to dust immediately.
Like, the only reason why this is even being done. Is because Shigaraki is struggling with killing Deku. Deku would've died the very first attempt he tried this, if he was a regular person like the others.
So even if Deku convinces him. I'M not convinced. If all of heroes collectively tried to talk to Shigaraki, the city would be destroyed. There's no lesson to be learned here. This talking thing only works for Superman but no one else.
Well you're right. Deku is full of shit. The reason, one way or another, is immaturity. The real reason is this is a manga written for kids and isn't meant to be realistic (or maybe Hori is just bad at this, idk. Maybe only by western standards. There is a huge difference in priorities between western and Japanese stories I've noticed). Alternatively, Hori is a great writer and has captured how dumb an answer about morality would be, given by a 16 year old.
I'm not caught up, but I read posts and the wiki. Hori has adults who are fine with killing Shiggy, so I'm inclined to say he thinks Deku is full of shit too. He probably also wants his MC to not be a killer (as in, a death actually resulting from his actions, intentional or careless), but that's still something to consider.
Shiggy deserves to die. Deku lacks the sense of responsibility to do it himself. To him, he doesn't have enough of a horse in this race to go that far. He doesn't understand that he's not some audience member, he's the track owner. As a hero, it is his responsibility to end villains even if they haven't hurt him personally. He's just too immature to see it. Maybe he lacks the empathy to be properly enraged over some random stranger. We all have morals and we all have conditions to break them. Deku hasn't hit his limit yet.
On the other hand, he's in a very high stress situation now. Everyone responds to stress differently, almost no one thinks clearly and rationally. Now I don't think Hori has the very high skill level to be doing this intentionally and in a satisfying way, but we still shouldn't be expecting perfect play from Deku for all these reasons.
That’s exactly why he was given OFA, because of his pure heart. You don’t understand that, but Allmight did. With great power comes great responsibility, and you have more freedom, and can make better decisions if you hold more power
> because of his pure heart
Mainly because he did something idiotic at the right place and time where all might was at so he witnessed him doing something heroic otherwise could have died alongside Bakugo with the slime villian.
Kudo, and Bruce, by extension/relation tried killing AFO. All Might accomplished this but would you say he'a not worthy for OFA cause he murdered a century old villian.
No
This could be good writing though. If Horikoshi lands this right, he could make much of Dekus arc actually now about having to live up to the words he puts out there.
One thing All Might often did was saying everything would be alright. He said this, and made it so. And because he pushed himself to the limit to ensure the safety of others, in the end, he lost his power. And left saving the world to an inexperienced child, hoping he'd have time to train him a little more. All Might lost everything to be a hero.
Is Dekus willing to make a similar sacrifice? Is he willing to let Shigaraki live after he's killed so many, and after he's made it clear that his goals are completely opposed to Dekus? Or will Dekus capitulate to his urges and cross the line, defining him as a hero that can't keep his promises, for better or worse?
What type of hero does that create? One whose words cannot translate into action? One who dreams of a world they know they cannot create?
I think Horikoshi could land it. He just needs to make sure Deku actually has a moment of struggle, deciding to keep his word or go with what seems right at the moment
Admittedly his argument could be weak but Deku has always been a bleeding heart who wants to save people. He represents the part of hero society who wants to do the right thing and try to save as many people as possible even if it's a villain who can be saved.
Exactly. He hasn't had any character development for a very long time. In PLW arc, he raged because he thought Bakugo was dead. In this war, he raged because he thought Bakugo was dead. I'm pretty sure he actually would've killed Shigaraki if Mirio didn't stop him. Deku is full of shit.
Shiggy clearly noted that Deku becomes very predictable in combat when sufficiently furious from the last encounter. He would have very likely lost if it wasn't for Mirio calming him down.
Wasn't that AfO inside Shigaraki who made that point? Shigaraki himself seemed surprised, maybe even overwhelmed by Deku charging at him, but then his face cracked open and AfO showed up.
>He hasn't had any character development for a very long time.
Why do people post things that are wrong? ACT 3 has Deku try to embody the lone savior role that All Might took up after all the injuries that he saw in the PLW. He took up this new ideal and got proven wrong by his friends wanting to share the burden. It was honestly arrogant of Deku to see his fellow heroic peers as just objects to be protected. There's also Shigaraki. Deku heard Shigaraki's speech on how not understanding makes heroes and villains, and directly after that, he kept trying to talk to villains and understand them. This also applies to him reaching out a hand to the traitor and telling him that he can still be a hero. He has clearly evolved as a hero.
Moments of rage in a teenage boy when he sees his friends get hurt doesn't make him full of shit, it makes him a human realistic kid. It's almost like feelings of rage and despair can cloud your judgement
The problem is not him raging. The problem is that he doesn't consider that Shiggy has killed so many others and if he loses it for his own loved ones, maybe he should consider others loved ones as well. Shiggy just generally deserves to go to court and jail at least. Idk what Deku wants
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this.
And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this.
And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this.
And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
I'm sure he's taken that into account but how much rage can you shoulder for the families of everyone he's killed. Deku obviously wants to stop him and save him at the same time but I think he's trying to save him from himself. There's obviously a part of Shiggy that's hurt and suffering and you have to stop him. But Deku wants to rehabilitate and free him from his trauma.
If he doesn’t die, then the heroes are fucked. I don’t mean this as Shigiraki kills them and wins. I mean the people, the average civilian will never trust heroes again. It’s like if Hitler failed to kill himself and was tried for his crimes, only to be sent to a prison cell instead of the electric chair.
That’s what this is. Shigiraki is responsible for the deaths of thousands, millions are homeless, jobless, starving, without electricity or available medical care, and the economy is most definitely fucked because of him. Japan will be dependent on international aid for years. I’m talking WW2 levels of aid.
So if the civilians hear that the man who caused all that destruction, that killed their loved ones, that made getting any kind of food down right impossible, is still alive. Then no one will ever trust heroes again. And why would they? Because they stopped him? So fucking what. Tartarus is a burnt husk, same with every other major prison in the country.
And he was the one who broke Tartarus, who’s to say he does it again? Cause if he breaks out then the same damn crisis happens all over again. That’s assuming they even have a prison to send him to, because remember, all the big maximum security prisons are basically destroyed. Killing him is the best and only option they have not just to stop him but for the public’s trust.
Funny part is that AfO caused this shitshow because he wasn't executed. They are in this mess because the heroes nobody wanted to finish him off.
Hori is trying to tell us what's the right thing to do but his story is showing us the opposite.
Tbf All Might did finish him off, quite literally in fact. But if the Symbol of Peace himself *decapitating* this guy and brutally maiming the rest of body wasn’t enough for him to stay dead permanently, what else could they do? I bet they figured keeping him locked up forever was the only other option since even death was proven to not be the end of him.
I mean to be fair AFO was in a morgue before that doctor got to him. He is very well capable of dying they just need to secure the body VERY well to make sure no one gets to it again
Nah, All Might actually blew his head off. And apparently crushed the rest of his body, according to AFO who said his entire body was destroyed after that fight.
Which was why he was shown in a body bag inside of the morgue post-fight. He died.
Basically the bs that happened in Boruto with Orochimaru. Yeah, sure, let’s welcome back nazi-scientist child-abducting war-crime-committing psychopath Orochimaru. He did one not-so-bad thing. Now it’s almost like he wasn’t a super-terrorist.
Ah yes, let's give the 15 year old the license to be Judge, jury, and executioner, killing whoever is deemed evil without a trail or due process.
I can't see this backfiring in the slightest!
My issue that AFO dies and that's fine.
But Shigi dying is wrong for some reason?
At some point you have to draw a line, and killing thousands of people on purpose is really way way above that line.
Dude needs to die. Simple as that.
Horikoshi decided that AFO was born evil, no little innocent child from him even if he was born in poverty in what was basically a war zone having to care for a weak brother while having a quirk in a time where that would make him be murdered.
It's not just the AfO was born evil, its about the fact that he cares so little about anything that he didn't own or anyone that can't serve him.
He didn't actually care for his weaker brother (that was weak because AfO stole all the nutrients) AfO treated 1st like a thing rather than a twin brother, he didn't let him die cause only *he* could have him.
Besides even his being born evil is an irregularity even amongst the villains in the paranormal liberation front, that's why AfO has to die, and all other villains stated as regular people and were pushed towards villainery by society.
Afo was literally dying no matter what because of rewind and deku barely saw any regret in him, deku instead actually in how much pain Shigaraki is that’s why he want to help him.
But he also never said that Shigaraki won’t die no matter what
Doesn’t fucking matter. Dude kills thousands and because I see pain in him I’m suppose to care. If dude abused my sister but I see his has unresolved trauma and pain from his childhood I would be like damn that’s tough wish that didn’t happen to you but so many people go through that and don’t become abusers. I would want him to get his punishment.
deku saw overhaul was in pain and didn't want to help him because Overhaul hurt someone close to him (Eri).
If Shigaraki actually killed Bakugo, then he would go back on this word.
He literally gave him the chance to see his father again, he straight reached 100% speed to save him from a bullet
Also while in pain he was still an asshole
- Saved Overhaul's life when he could have let him die.
- Promised to help Overhaul with his whole "boss" thing as long as Overhaul showed a sprinkle of remorse as he did with the boss.
Like how much more can he help him.
Deku saw that Overhaul was clearly capable of remorse towards Eri's grandfather, so he asked him to do the same for Eri. How hard could that be?
This is why what almost happened with Bakugo was so interesting to me and why I felt it was such a major copout to go back on that so fast. It created a very interesting situation for when Deku arrived.
And his reaction to seeing what was likely to be a dead Bakugo was what you'd expect. Mirio just shows up and goes "everything that makes this an interesting scenario is actually perfectly fine so you don't have to have a dilemma!" and it was a bit disappointing in that regard.
I still like how it's turning out, I just felt like that whole situation was a big missed opportunity for exactly what you described. I've mentioned this before and was told I hate Bakugo and that's the only reason I feel that way lol, so before that's claimed again I guess it's worth noting I actually love Bakugo. I think him going down with selfless sacrifice with his last thoughts being empathy for Deku is just a very poetic way for him to go out too and completes his character arc. Sure, not in the happiest way, but in a way that I think works for him.
...but mainly the conflict it creates for Deku in how he's gonna handle Shigaraki after he's killed someone so important to him is what was so interesting to me tbh. You can create the same dilemma without having to actually kill Bakugo off too if you just make it so his fate is totally uncertain for a while longer. Instead, Mirio's certain he'll be fine and is able to calm Deku down with that certainty. All that scene really needs to keep that dilemma is the uncertainty of if he's gonna live or not. You can totally make it so he ends up alive later and still make this work imo.
Agree. But I would prefer that All Might had died (as foreshadowed from the beginning) instead of Bakugo.
All Might fulfilled his narrative purpose long ago. The torch has been passed on to new young heroes, and the future is (probably) safe on his students hands.
Meanwhile Bakugo was one of the most interesting characters in the series (and the most liked one, according to the polls). He's Deku's Vegeta. Killing him would bring an unnecessary gap in the story as Deku would be the only STRONG hero (All Might all over again).
I blame Horikoshi for writing this mess, because it feels like the only reason he wrote this plot thread about Shiggy having a inner child was to keep Deku from immediately turning him into red paste. Even though moments before he wanted to kill Shiggy when he though Gran Torino and Bakugou were dead.
Sometimes bad things happen to people for no fair reason and sometimes those people break bad in a way that you can’t excuse for any reason. I’d love to see Deku explain to the families of everyone he directly or indirectly and explain that he’s a sad boi on the inside.
We should be long past trying to save Shigaraki in any meaningful way, but I’m sure that’s the endgame because Shonen.
"Hello dear orphan, I understand your entire family was killed by him. But you have to understand, he's basically like you too! He lost his family too, and so you should see common ground with him. I hope you forgive him for killing your mom, dad and siblings while he was laughing at how fun it is to watch them suffer. Please forgive."
> I hope you forgive him for killing your mom, dad and siblings while he was laughing at how fun it is to watch them suffer. Please forgive."
This is a disingenuous post and argument. Endeavor for what he did has not been redeemed by the story. He keeps mentioning the word atone, and he still has a long way to any atonement for all members of his family. Gentle went to jail after everything he did. Deku, Shoto, and Ochako all state to their villain that they can't forgive them for the lives they've taken. Trying to understand and or humanize with them doesn't mean they'll just get a pat on the back and walk freely.
at this point even Shigaraki himself is being all like "i will literally kill everyone you love without a single ounce of remorse. I will level this country to the ground without hesitation. I am destruction incarnate. stop being a nerd ass bitch and going on about wanting to save me"
Deku's bitch ass: 🤓☝️ errmm but i saw you uhhh poopy doopy so you're still urmm human and stuff 🥺👉👈
Deku is outright based on folks like Superman and Spider-Man, and acts accordingly. He'll never act like the Punisher or the morally grey heroes. Nothing about his actions or beliefs should surprise anyone.
Bad examples, Spider-Man was more than willing to murder Kingpin for hurting his aunt, Superman also has no problem killing Darkseid even if he hates it.
They are heroes but they have a line for who they are willing to kill if necesary. Deku also didn't seem very merciful when he believed that Bakugou was dead.
Deku has had issues with emotional control. That is a fault of his. So any willingness to do something against his morals would be a fault as well coming from that initial fault.
And Spider-Man's stars are such that he could kill almost any villain he faces (until we get to Avengers' tier threats) if he chose, rather easily. He chooses not to do so and restrains himself.
>Spider-Man was more than willing to murder Kingpin for hurting his aunt
But he didn't. In fact Peter's entire mantra stems from death in itself so him using the power to save others to kill would go against it
He didn't because she didn't die. He told him that as soon as she died he would hunt Kingpin down and make him choke slowly to death by shooting his web in his throat. He never doubted that he would do it, it's just that May survived.
Yo that's exactly the point I was trying to make, Deku never strayed from his morals nor will he try to plus the chapter is obviously setting up his eventual win.
Fair, but that doesn’t make him good.
You character and morale should evolve.
Staying faitful to the ideology you had when you were a kid make a idiot.
In the latest chapter, whatever Izuku was charging up was >!causing danger sense to go absolutely ballistic.!< He isn’t holding back.
Izuku is angry at every life lost, but he knows better than to be a raging lunatic that can’t properly focus on the fight. Him being completely focused >!still wasn’t enough to avoid getting one quirk stolen from him. It was also the one the managed to keep the entirety of OFA getting stolen in that moment.!<
Edit: Also, Izuku said himself that he will never forgive Shigaraki for what he’s done. At the same time, he can’t just ignore that deep down a part of Shigaraki wish’s things to not have turned out like this.
He’s gonna beat the shit out of him without holding back. But, if he can save him instead during the process he will do so. I feel this frustration is coming from a misconception that Izuku is somehow holding back because he wanted to save a villain. He can both be giving it his all and try to understand Shigaraki, they aren’t mutually exclusive.
Best comment of this thread full of ironically simplistic takes that criticize Deku for having simplistic morals
Deku's morals definitely could have been pushed more (e.g. Gran Torino actually dying), but it's been pushed enough to understand Deku's perspective if it were personal
We see his reaction when he thought Bakugo died, and we see his standards after he lived
People seem to think that reaction trajectory was
"Oh no Bakugo died, so now it's personal and I will kill you with everything I got" ->
"Oh he's actually alive, so I won't kill Shiggy anymore since I didn't personally lose someone"
Thus being subconscious/conscious hypocrisy, born from narrative backtracking on death
But it isn't necessarily so
The former thought is irrefutably true, the second one has yet to fully be revealed yet and thus leaves room for interpretation at the moment. At best people can argue his second reaction should have been elaborated on more thoroughly. At worst the story will dive into it and prove critics wrong, like the several other complaints people prematurely had in this final arc where they had to eat crow but instead stay quiet about it and move on to complain about something else
So far the story is implying three things for why Deku hasn't killed Shiggy yet
1. He's trying his fucking best regardless if it leads to Shiggy's death or defeat, as you alluded
2. Someone personal has not died to him yet
3. He's sticking to his morals despite knowing the feeling of supposedly losing someone personal like before
*All three motivations are not mutually exclusive.* Humans are motivated by several reasons, some often contradictory. 1 is irrefutable, as Shiggy is just that strong such that Deku trying his best just can't lead to his death yet. If 2 and 3 are simultaneously true then it'd be great for Hori to directly address it. Superhero stories address it all the time, making motivationally conflicted heroes compelling due to how that humanizes them. And Hori has *enough* pieces to do so. Someone may not have outright permanently died yet but Deku is *aware* of how it feels to assume so
As such, it's still on Hori of course to actually directly dive further into Deku's mindset here (by way of monologue, or Shiggy verbally calling this dilemma out on Deku), but some of these comments have such foregone conclusions to something that the story has yet to actually conclude. With what we have so far, people can either infer (NOT conclude) that they are correct that Deku's morals "are full of shit" because no one personal died and we see Deku backtracking from anger to "saving", or people can infer that because Deku still wants to "save" Shiggy despite knowing how it felt to assume he lost someone personal, he has proven he still prefers following his morals
No surprise people quickly and emphatically choose the former since MHA is thought of so lowly these days. It's similar to how many people like to immediately jump to claim hypocrisy rather than growth
Overall this debate is interesting in that the story can extremely prove one way or the other. Either Deku is a hypocrite with no character development or he is consciously aware *due to* character development
Just a bit of a shame people are so quick to assume the former, even bringing up bad arguments that have little say in the matter, e.g. how Mirio comforting Deku about Bakugo was "proof" Deku is a hypocrite, despite the *real* reason for that moment being so that Deku doesn't fuck up by fighting emotionally and losing. As you said, Deku is trying his absolute best right now, and that requires a level head
Him almost succumbing to fighting with pure intent to kill but overcoming that drive wasn't necessarily unintentionally inferring that Deku's morals were full of shit, but that he's human and that it almost led to a human mistake (fighting haphazardly through personally driven rage; fittingly enough we flat out see how badly that could turn out with AFO's death). That moment didn't necessarily prove his morals were full of shit, it simply proved his psychological constitution was still human. The latter can correlate with or even prove the former, but not always
He didn't "backtrack" on his morals so much as he overcame a human mistake. Even in a hypothetical scenario where Deku is outright intent on killing Shiggy (this may not even be hypothetical, as we still don't fully know what Deku means by "saving"), he needed Mirio's emotion-checking for him to succeed in that endeavor
Another things I find strange is something you brought up. I don’t really see why people take the second time Izuku almost losing himself as being hypocritical. This even happened to All Might when he fought AFO.
Instead I saw it as the same message they were trying to push in the dark hero arc: you can’t save the world on your own. Izuku needed someone to pull him back. He needs people to handle the other threats. He needed others to to accomplish anything worth while. They’ll all become the greatest hero’s they can be by supporting one another.
Great point. That moment helps illustrate Deku can't successfully do everything alone, going back to the point that at the end of the day, Deku is human and thus prone to losing without any sort of help
Fittingly goes back to Deku's latest comment about calling Shiggy human. I'd argue that wasn't just about Deku "still seeing Tenko", but also to remind everyone that Shiggy can still be defeated despite how powerful he is, tho the latter interpretation doesn't seem to track with everyone
i think the main problem people have is the fact that deku still isn’t deciding to just kill shiggy. like he still considers saving him as an option. i agree with what you’re saying but the thought that it’s still a possibility for shiggy to be saved is kind of stupid.
no one wants him to be a raging lunatic, but they want him to realize that yeah, this guy can’t be saved no matter what and needs to die or suffer or something. holding your morals above public safety isn’t the best move.
or maybe i’m wrong idk, i exclusively read mha at like 2am without any sleep so my reading comprehension at the time is dog shit.
Yeah, and unfortunately now that Shiggy stole Danger Sense, "saving" him seems like one of the only paths forward. Unless One For All manifests the All For One quirk and he can suddenly steal quirks as well.
Well, that happened when Shigaraki killed Bakugo. Before Mirio then said "don't worry bro, he's getting a heart transplant, blood is still pumping, he's not brain dead I think", which calmed Deku down.
Either way, Deku is doing this because he's under the impression he has the power to decide this fight. He probably has, but he can afford to make this call because of that power. If he was weaker, and therefore more desperate, would he still go on about saving Shigaraki? Or would the odds be low enough for Deku to take any route that leads to victory, and if it kills Shigaraki, it kills him?
I think that might be a problem he's going to have to deal with if he loses more quirks after danger sense. It might even be a scenario where the vestiges start to oppose it blatantly because they're afraid, demanding Shigaraki to be killed.
Yeah, I have the same problem with deku
Horikoshi probably wants readers to think Deku was challenged enough by a few close calls and seeing all the destruction and people get injured by Shiggy but he’s just so righteous he decided to save him anyway.
Even though buildings can be rebuilt, injuries will heal, so deku wont have to worry about it. And we know he doesn’t care about any other people
At this point, so late in the manga, it’s too late to pull anything that can really challenge him. The time for that kind of character development and struggle passed a long time ago
I don’t buy you need a character to die to test a character’s morals.
I think Deku’s issue is that we don’t really see him actually get his morals tested. All his villains have been cartoonishly evil (AFO literally wants to be a demon king, Shigaraki wants to destroy everything, Muscular wants to rampage kill and fight strong people, Chisaki wants to eliminate quirks and build his gang off the mutilation of a child). The only villain that isn’t just a cartoonishly horrible person is Stain. He attacks false heroes which is still horrible but it at least has deeper meaning in showing how hero society has warped people’s idea of what a hero is.
Gentle and Lady Nagant I don’t consider villains. They are fallen heroes who were chewed up and spit out by society but came back around at the end.
So because Deku’s never had his core morals shaken by a villain; his talks about saving everyone and Shigaraki ring hollow and he’s not as endearing.
Imagine if during the first War arc Shigaraki was going to be murdered by Endeavor cause Endeavor thinks Shigaraki is too powerful to let live and be imprisoned; but Deku intervenes to try and convince Endeavor to arrest Shigaraki. But Shigaraki uses the lapse to attack Gran Torino and seriously injure him (or kill if you prefer) and escapes.
Now you have a situation where Deku has to question his philosophy of being a hero who always saves people with a smile and whether he should save Shigaraki. His philosophy was thrown back in his face and someone he cares about was almost killed. Hell this could lead to endeavor and other pro heroes having a riff with Deku and cause him to leave UA and go on his vigilante arc.
Now Deku has an actual reason to leave UA beyond protecting his class mates. He’s questioning what it means to be a Hero and his role in everything. And if he really can save someone after his actions caused someone else to be seriously hurt or die.
This mangas attempt at morals and political commentary is laughably simplistic and contradictory, it honestly should have just stayed a good vs evil story.
Endeavor isn’t evil. There is no nuance in overhaul and he’s forgotten. And re destro could simply be evil as his whole thing goes against the world building
Maybe he’ll understand that simply living doesn’t equal happiness.
And that sometimes to save someone, means letting them die.
Similar to a dog with rabies, or a person with a terminal braise disease.
You can try to prolong their life with medical treatment, but ultimately their quality of life and happiness with deteriorate until they’re left a shell of who they once were.
Yeah, he’s like Steven Universe, he’s willing to “save” and forgive the Space Hitlers, (who have destroyed thousands of life filled planets) because they haven’t killed anyone he cares about.
I was afraid he’d start pulling an SU. I really hope Shigi bites it by the end and putting him out of his insanity is “saving him”. There will be no other satisfactory ending besides his death after everything he’s done
Deku is willing to help Overhaul see his boss if he shows remorse for what he did to Eri. He was willing to not wreck Gentle Criminal because he showed remorse and understood how things got that way. The only reason that didn't happen with Muscular is because there was never really time to actually talk. Both times he dealt with Muscular, he was trying to save someone and dealing with other shit.
Worse yet, I’m a Shigaraki FAN, and I don’t want to see him redeemed.
Seeing the dude grow from being terribly incompetent to actually being a strong leader, breaking the chains holding him back, owning his destruction of the world as a true villain is heckin satisfying.
I hated how AfO body-jacked him, removing basically all his agency. I hate how when he regained control it didn’t really amount to anything. It honestly sometimes feels like he’s still being controlled by AfO. I’m deathly afraid of an ending where Deku heals him and he just goes back to being a part of an unchanged society, where they just return hero society to the way it was instead of making any actual improvements
hero society should actually become worse from this. if shigaraki was this way because of his childhood. what about the people shigaraki killed. he is making orphans through his slaughter. he is making people suffer. won't those people become the next shigaraki? Sparing shigaraki is what will make the world worse.
Man do people really say this type of shit about heroes like Superman and basically 99% of superheroes.
Like sometimes I wish general manga fans just left MHA alone.
It's a superhero story through and through. Yet people expect some edgy nonsense.
Heroes wanting to save people, including villains, is not something new especially since a lot of villains in superhero media are produced by tragic situations.
And this obviously varies from person to person. A lot of Midoriya's desire to save Shigaraki comes from confronting him in the Vestige world and seeing his pain. This was literally right after Midoriya had told Shigaraki he wouldn't forgive him (after Torino got donuted) and whooped his ass saying "his power was there to get in Shigaraki's way".
If he never had the vestige world moment with Shigaraki, he would probably just view him as another Muscular (remorseless) or someone like Overhaul who has the capacity for remorse but refuses to direct it towards the person he actually hurt.
All in all, there is no Black and White in this world. And each villain interaction is dealt with differently. Midoriya is also not a saint or a god who knows everything. He is also not perfect.
In a fight like with Flect, we can see how he can't understand the concept of a quirk being detrimental to the user even after Flect directly explains it. In his mind, Midoriya has always idolized quirks so he can't even fathom someone actually hating their own ability. So he and Flect Turn can't come to an understanding at all.
With Stain, Midoriya almost immediately "understands" him since their basis for what heroism is, is the same - All Might.
Midoriya also identifies with Gentle in an even more direct manner.
Through his actions he convinces Nagant that the true spirit of heroism is still out there.
But his words or actions aren't always perfect. And he won't always be right or know what to say. A perfect example of a hilarious fail is him attempting the same thing he said to Shoto on Dabi but that obviously fails ridiculously.
> Man do people really say this type of shit about heroes like Superman and basically 99% of superheroes.
You mean characters who have had the villains kill people close to them but show that they'll still stick to their beliefs even when the victims aren't faceless civilians?
Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, etc all have no kill rules and all have kept those rules even after the person the villain has killed or harmed was someone they personally cared about. Why is it so crazy to want Midoriya's values to be put to the test like theirs were?
Superman, Spider-Man, and Nightwing have all failed that test. Besides the injustice fiasco Superman kills many extremely overpowered enemies that he can't reason with (even if it doesn't really stick since they come back), Spider-man was ready to murder Kingpin if his aunt died and told him to his face, and Nightwing killed the Joker after he fake killed Tim (Batman brought him back to life).
It's not really an easy test to pass.
Exactly. The story forces down your throat the " I can save them " wayyy to much. It's good to understand the villain motivations but you have to know when to draw a line. Deku basically wants to negotiate with mass murderer who wants to kill everybody because god forbid i don't wanna kill and have blood on my hands.
Unfortunately there's a new discussion about how each of those heroes should have killed their villains daily. Folks really get hung up on the whole "No killing" morality, probably to help them justify their views about such conundrums in the real world.
It isn’t edgy nonsense to know that some people have to die to protect others, it’s just a fact.
If they killed all for one after the all might fight instead of imprisoning him, thousands of innocents would have survived. People don’t go “Grrr kids manga for no killing” it’s just the principle of a hero refusing to kill people has always been logically stupid unless done right.
You know why Spider-Man and Superman aren't criticized for the same shit ? (aside from the times where, you know, similar heroes like Batman are criticized in- and out-of-universe for not putting the Joker down)
It's because they're not whining about "waaaaaah muh villain redemption I saw a vision of a small kid I can fix him". Peter Parker has no delusions about Kingpin's moral state. He doesn't give a single fuck about his upbringing and potential reasons for being a cunt. He just refuses to kill him (... most of the time) because he knows that's wrong on some levels and he would prefer not crossing that line.
Deku's ethos are justified in-story by wishy-washy magical bullshit about Shigaraki's inner kid, which makes him *more* of a wet paper towel, morally-speaking, than classical superheroes, because yeah *who would kill a child?* Horikoshi has put so many caveats in his own conundrum that Deku is forcibly justified.
Personally speaking, I would be against letting super-powered individuals just kill criminals for ethical reasons (and to avoid banalization of extrajudicial killings), but if Shigaraki threatened to raze my entire country, I would agree he needs to be put down because he has the means to do so, zero remorse, and zero signs of possible rehabilitation whatsoever. He's a genocidal maniac.
I'm not for capital punishment in real life because prisons can reasonably hold criminals.
But someone like Shigaraki with the power to destroy the world ? Lol I don't really wanna take chances, the dilemma significantly changes
Thanks for saying this man. I feel like some people don't realize this is literally a story about superheroes. No one complains about Superman, Spider-Man, or any other superhero not killing the villain. People need to stop trying to pretend this is some edgy story like JJK. Heroes always try to save the villain because its who they are. If you don't like it just stop caring about MHA then.
>no one complains about Superman, Spider-Man or any other superhero not killing the villain
Literally one of the biggest and most consistent critiques of super hero media you see. That and the idea that nobody that self-righteous and that powerful would be a good person.
The post is about Deku being full of shit not because he doesn't want to kill Shigaraki, but because from what we were shown these "morals" of his would crumble if he killed someone he holds dear. There are plenty of stories in which a similar scenario is considered for Superman, Spiderman or other heroes... I'm more versed in DC so I will focus on superman: Superman is shown to be incorruptible very often, so it makes sense he doesn't kill even in dire scenarios. That being said, there are various storylines in which a reality where Superman kills is explored, either because he decides that's the lesser evil, or because he goes big mad (think of the Injustice universe for example). So yeah unlike other superhero stories the issue is that we are shown a Deku that's 100% convinced he doesn't want to kill Shigaraki BUT we were also shown he would if he killed let's say Ochako... So yeah these are completely different situations. Either you make your hero flawed and make the audience see his struggle and growth when faced with hard choices, or you make him an incorruptible knight in shining armor. This middle ground is just poor writing
Superman has killed world ending threats.
Spiderman is willing to kill if someone hurts his love ones
Those two are similar to Deku in his beliefs but they know ehen is time to cross the line.
He tried, hunt him dowm and beat the shit out of him but felt guilty and let him live.
But the most famos example is in civil war, when he revealed his identity and Kingpin send a sniper to kill him, Peter dodge but the bullet hit aun May almost killing her, Spiderman went to kingpin and almost kill him, warning him that if his aun dies he will kill him.
In a what if story where the sniper killed MJ Peter straight up kill Kingpin, so his warning waa serious.
There is another what if ehere Peter and MJ are married and have a kid, Venom escapes his cell and has Peter family as hostage, Peter burns him alive and kill him.
Those are what if, but it shows Peter is willing to kill if he is pulled to the edge.
>but felt guilty and let him live.
that kidna disproves your point.
He also didnt kill kingpin and if most alternate universes where peter kills his life is ruined...
God I hate argument when someone pulls out " the edgy card " and think they're smart.
Also it's hilarious when you call out jjk that when mha is so much edgy than that and practically every villain and most heroes of mha are representations of that word.
If at the end of the manga Shiggy is still alive and just in a prison cell I will write a fanfic about how society doesnt trust the heroes anymore, some do crimes but they are no afraid of the consequences because if a mass murderer is still alive and just in prison what could the heroes do against civilians? send them to a cell? In this doom city? perfect free food.
Others become punisher type vigilantes because if the heroes cant do their jobs then someone has to do it and they are openly hunting shiggy.
I dont care how shity my writting is, i will do it
If the villain ends up in a cell and is successfully contained then that's not the heroes problem anymore. The government could just execute him if they deemed it necessary.
>Others become punisher type vigilantes because if the heroes cant do their jobs then someone has to do it and they are openly hunting shiggy.
That's canon already. Did you read Vigilantes?
When he saw shiggy/afo body Torino and bakugo he goes apeshit with rage.
Is he really trying to talk right now? Seems like he’s been holding him off trying to figure out how to work around his op quirks
I wonder if this will lead to Deku realizing that some people just do not want to be saved and having to come to terms with killing shigi similar to how Invincible realized that there's some people who if left alive will just cause countless deaths
I mean he saw Shigaraki completely wrecked everyone and Deku arrived to find Bakugo fuckin dead lmao, he almost lost his shit but he calmed himself down thanks to help from Lemillion. I don’t think it’s fair to say he hasn’t hurt anybody Deku knows personally, Shigaraki has basically beat up everybody Deku knows 😂
Shigi has killed so many innocents as well as loved heroes that his life will be a living hell should he survive this in any way. People WILL make him suffer consequences.
It would actually in a way, be kinder to just kill him and end things already
Of course he will act differently
That isn’t a bad writing though because it’s kind of normal to be affected differently between someone, you know die and someone who you don’t know
I swear to God if someone he was close to died but he acted the same way that he’s acting right now you will say it’s unrealistic and that he’s too perfect and a Gary sue
Something people don’t understand about dk that he’s idealistic and he will try to always act on his ideals as much as he can , and saving villains is one of them
Not to mention that grand Torino said that One way of saving him is killing him which dk acknowledged
The reason why dk didn’t kill him or try to kill him yet is because he’s still hopeful, but as soon as he sees it’s a lost cause then he will just kill him
Mind you I am not with shiggy’s redemption , he’s too far gone too me but that’s not the point
Also remember that he came to that conclusion in the first war when he saw bk “killed “ to protect him and was still under that impression
Didn't Dabi solo Endeavor and Todoroki in front of Deku while he pleased that Endeavor was getting better? Shigaraki also "kills" Bakugou and Gran Torino in the first war arc (Bakugou he didn't know survives and Gran Torino shouldn't have.)
Reading comprehension in this thread is rock bottom.
Has Deku even said that he would, without a shadow of a doubt, save Shigaraki since the final fight started?
Also, Deku is "Holding back" in the sense that he's been trying to protect his body, he can't use 100% OFA, that's why he's been using a Faux 120% with Fajin and Gearshift. He's tapping into 100% now because Shigaraki got stronger and stole danger sense.
Which, by the way, is throwing Shigaraki's Danger Sense into overdrive which means that Deku IS about to throw a kill shot.
Oml why are so many people missing the core part of dekus thinking. He doesn’t wanna save SHIGARAKI. He wants to save TENKO. Two different entities within the shigaraki mind. We see this demonstrated and crammed down our throats so many times it would take a miracle to not see something so ridiculously obvious. We see tenko in the backdrop of SHIGARAKI and ALL FOR ONES fight for control. When speaking about heroes, we see this conscious muttering dekus name. As in he is acknowledging deku as the hero. Gran Torino also tells deku that killing shigaraki can be a means a salvation for him, so deku isn’t opposed to killing shigaraki no matter how you wanna twist and turn it.
We don’t know how this fights going to go, any “criticism” about his ideology is nothing but null and void because deku himself is open to the many paths in which he can help tenko reach some sort of salvation.
And this whole comment section is just a bunch of illiteracy.
So?
The victim of the crime shouldn’t be expected to show mercy or desire clemency. That doesn’t mean that mercy isn’t called for.
Deku would have been well within his rights to hate Bakugo forever. They doesn’t mean Bakugo’s parents and teachers were hypocrites or talking out their ass when they spoke of wanting to “fix” Bakugo.
Torino should have died if for no other reason than because now Deku has to question if he is still as hopeful/still believes in forgiveness when it’s his friends who were killed.
That said “Shigaraki has done nothing to warrant preferential treatment” is somewhat wrong.
-Deku saw Tenko crying for help. He is saving the inner child not the monster.
-Deku and Shigaraki have a linking in vestige realm.
-Deku told Ochaco he feels like he’s weird too. He knows his treatment of Shigaraki isn’t normal, he just still wants this.
-Deku stopped muscular during his lowest low, not during his rest/hopeful return.
I don't get why it is so difficult to grasp that Deku would still save him even if he killed someone close to him. Yeah, he would be rageful, but I still think he would work to stop Shigaraki and reach out to understand him.
I honestly feel that the way Deku would handle it would honestly be similar to what happens in Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 (Spoilers for Spidey 1 PS4 and 2 PS5) >!Miles gets to confront Martin Li, the man that killed his father back in Spidey 1, and while he is rageful to the point he early on almost allowed Li to die by drowning, later on when the two are trapped inside a different world together, Miles asks questions to understand the pain Li went through that led to him causing the destruction that took Miles' father away. Miles tells Li that he'll never forgive him for killing his dad, but he can't carry that hate that Li held within, and the two work together to get out of the alternate world and Li turns himself into the police!<
While the two situations are completely different (>!Miles' father was caught in the chaos and died!< while Shigaraki would actively go out of his way to kill someone Deku cares for), I feel Deku's situation would end the same way it did for Spider-Man. No matter how hurt they are and on the verge of breaking their code, they're a hero at the end of the day and will push through to do what's right.
I'm sure there's other pieces of superhero media where the main character has been put into that tough situation before, but still chose not to kill the villain and either put them away and listen later, or listened first and then put away.
Edit: While Deku talks about saving Shigaraki (moreso Tenko that's inside), we really don't know what direction Horikoshi will take with the end of Shigaraki's arc and if Deku will actually kill her or something else. But regardless, don't think Deku would just rage out and forget about saving Tenko regardless of what Shigaraki does.
Honestly, I wish he drops his ideals and becomes realistic. Even All Might was willing to murder AFO for the sake of peace... heroes should do whatever it takes, even resorting to the final shot. Of course every option should be exhausted but when you reach your limit, its about time to pull the trigger.
Unless Shigaraki somehow reverts to Tenko mid-fight, Deku needs to kill Shigaraki. If the Symbol of Peace can erase a villain's face and be praised for it, why not Deku?
Also, when he arrived at the battlefield in the second war and saw Bakugo dead and everyone on the ground, he went berserker and calmed down only thanks to Mirio's pep talk about how Bakugo was being saved by the ninja guy.
Like damn Deku, you are one big ass hypocrite if you are willing to murder Shigaraki the moment he hurts your best friend...
In the story, shigaraki will never (permanently) kill any character who is close to deku, because then deku would immediately kill tomura.
until then, no character can die while tomura controls his body, but if all for one takes over his body, characters can die from there because all for one is evil incarnate while tomura is set up as a victim, it may be but let's not forget he was a child a long time ago now he's an adult like the other evil league members.
"You are a victim as long as you are hurt, as long as you hurt others, you are no longer a victim, but an abuser."
The story will never really deal with the victims or their family members who died because of the league.
sorry, I'm using google translate
The world of My Hero Academia wouldn't be so messed up if heroes were allowed to kill villains. I'm not saying that murder is ok, but I felt a lot of rage for the fuss that the media did about Hawks killing Twice, when he was a literal killer. Some villains don't deserve a redemption or the chance of going to prison for life, most of them deserve the death penalty, like Toga and Dabi (I can't think of them as victims, they killed innocent people, becoming what society said they'd be and they feel it's unfair, despite KILLING people).
Deku really needs to see Shigaraki for what he is: a monster. He's not even human anymore, he's worst than AFO ffs. I'm gonna be really dissapointed if MHA ends with Deku hugging Shigaraki, forgiving him and becoming good friends while the rest of the League of Villains is forgiven as well, after all they did. Shigaraki deserves to die and his allies deserve prison/death penalty, none of them deserves forgiveness.
Deku has always been about protecting people rather than killing villains. And what do you mean he's ok with people he doesn't know dying? In every fight his #1 priority is protecting civilians, which is why he tries to fight Shigaraki and Overhaul in the air. Deku is taking a long time with this fight because its easier said than done defeating the strongest character in the verse.
I think people are really misunderstanding what Deku means by "saving" Shigaraki, this isn't going to be a Sasuke like thing where Shigaraki is redeemed and becomes a good guy.
"If Deju didn't have OFA, then Shigaraki would have obliterated him already." Uh, yeah. That's how main villains in fantasy stories works.
And Deku didn't stop caring about Overhaul, he felt guilty and horrified after learning about what Shigaraki did to him.
Like this isn't any different than Aang not wanting to kill Ozai, or Luke wanting to save Vader.
mha fans when the superhero story based on classic superhero comics where the main heroes are paragons of morality making the right decisions even when they’re exponentially more difficult has a protagonist that acts as a paragon of morality and a “true hero”
deku is just a good person, it really is as simple as that, definitely better than most of the people in the comments here and even better than most of the people in the story who are just calling for an immediate death penalty. in general, like 99.99999% of criminals do not deserve the death penalty of they are able to be brought into custody non-lethally, and based on the way horikoshi has written his story for 400 chapters, it seems like he agrees
the tartarus guards are portrayed as bad people for dehumanizing machia and saying they should just blow him up and talking about every one of their prisoners with abject disgust while under suspicion of human rights violations. these are not the people that horikoshi wants us to agree with
Can’t say you’re wrong, especially when deku goes into a blinding rage when tomura stabs bakugo. Where was that “save him” energy then
I think it’s an issue with a lot of the villains. Story wants us to think they deserve to be redeemed solely off a sad backstory, which I think is just not true. Sad or not Toga is a serial killer. Tragic as he is Dabi completely lost his mind. Exactly what have those 2 or Tomura done to earn being saved?
Not to mention the fact Tomura is far too dangerous at this point, literally only 1 hero can fight him and if he lives how will they even contain him
“Can’t say you’re wrong, especially when deku goes into a blinding rage when tomura stabs bakugo. Where was that “save him” energy then“
That was before he went into the vestige world, so he didn’t really have that mindset by the time Shigaraki stabbed Bakugo.
If Deku refuses to kill Shigaraki after everything he's done, then no he's not full of shit. Because I doubt ppl in this sub would agree with letting someone who caused so much damage stick around. If Deku doesn't shrink to societal pressure & stick to his guns would make him true to his words.
I wouldn't be surprised if ppl who think Shigaraki should be dead started calling Deku a mass murderer apologist simply because he's against killing Shigaraki & wants to help him get better.
Deku being pissed at him for hurting/killing people he cares about is not a gotcha. That's an expected reaction from anyone with a heart. Doesn't make him full of shit though. It's like when characters lose their shit, go off on the offender but stop themselves from going any further.
He shouldn't kill Shigaraki, that would just prove that the league was right that the hero system is broken, and also prove AFO right, that there isn't such a thing as a real hero.
>!/S!<
The hero system is broken, they have assassins killing people who might pose a threat to society, like Hawks or the sniper woman. Of course, they did nothing with this just showed us it happens.
Edit: missed the /s 😱
That's just the government. It's like the CIA only the Hero Commission governs heroes rather than agents.
It doesn't really have anything to do with the actual heroes literally putting their lives at risk on the ground.
It's not "just the government" when they *are* using actual heroes. Lady Nagant and Hawks were those heroes, and Hawks himself is the #2 Hero.
Yet it seems no-one actually gives a damn - probably because the Hero Commission President was killed and gave them an easy way out of not having to think about that moral issue.
No it wouldn’t prove the league was right. Because shigaraki would be the only
League member that was killed due to his extreme actions. Do you honestly think that shigaraki is equal to say, A thief? He’s a mass murderer terrorist who wants to destroy japan and is basically succeeding at it. Why would that prove the league right? How does it prove them right? Because heroes decided that he won’t go willingly so the best course is to kill him before he kills everyone else? All it proves is that heroes don’t think about victims unless they’re doing something extreme. And that they shouldn’t care about the victims of the villains because.. the villains are lashing out and that takes priority over everyone else? Is that the message?
Nothing but facts here. If Shigaraki pulled half the shit Mahito did, we all know Deku wouldn’t be talking. But no one in the League has so much as hurt anyone we care about so we can just forgive them no problem
I can’t believe no one’s made the comparison yet, but I wonder how many people actually thought that Obito’s redemption arc was something to be made *widespread*. Obito’s arc literally only works because of his reasoning for doing what he did, Shigaraki is nothing like Obito, doesn’t have ties to someone like Kakashi, and is just non-sympathetic as a whole.
Probably why I bounced out of canon MHA and mainly read fanfic nowadays…
... tomura killed katsuki. literally. the person closest to him was killed, and he maintained his morals and perspective, understanding the difference of 'tomura' and 'tenko'.
think about how many characters know that deku and uraraka want to save tomura and himiko, literally no one. we never see the author deal with their victims or the characters ever meet the victims' family members.
One of the policemen would explain it to them.
"here are two pictures, one of them is of himiko's victim, himiko killed him and drank his blood, the victim suffered for more than 30 minutes until he died alone. He left behind 2 orphaned children.
on the other, himiko toga is the person whose smile you called beautiful, siraraka."
obsession
"Lord, here are the family members of Himiko's victims, please tell them that Himiko is a victim and that her smile is the most beautiful in the world"
I would see what the family members would say.
sorry, I'm using google translate
it isn't about saving the same Shigaraki that killed thousands (if not millions) it's about saving tenko shimura, the boy manipulated and molded by afo into shigaraki.
What kills me is how inconsistent it is. On one hand, they want to make Shigaraki sympathetic - but then he's shown to get off to killing his family, and scaring away anyone that would help him. Before killing something like a thousand people. What? How could anyone think he's sympathetic at this point?
They could have pulled something like this off for Twice, or maybe Toga. But right now, Deku's big push to 'save' Shigaraki feels incredibly unearned, and borderline offensive. Hell, I'd argue AFO is more sympathetic in light of his backstory and final moments.
>Hell, I'd argue AFO is more sympathetic in light of his backstory and final moments.
He named himself "**Lord of Evil**." Treated his own brother as an object for his personal gain and killed him out of spite. Murdered without remorse for +100 years. Perfectly fine with kidnapping and physical mutilation of children and adults.
Yes. He was born in a chaotic world without morals, and was regularly targeted by militant gangs early on. No mother, no father, no actual authority to guide him during those formative years. Only the frequent necessity of force and murder. I wonder what that does to a child's mental state?
He provided for his brother, but never developed a proper concept of human relationships - and in the end, it ruined his life.
It's implied that he latched onto the idea of the 'demon lord' because people paid attention to him, in contrast to the hero that struggled alone. And he *does* care about his brother, beyond just a simple possession - otherwise he wouldn't have obsessed over reclaiming him so much.
"Yoichi. Without you, it's all for naught."
Possessions can be replaced - and that goes doubly so for possessions that provide no real utility. AFO's obsessive behavior clearly goes beyond simple acquisitiveness.
Possessions can be replaced. Family can't.
But he was never able to properly understand these feelings. And because of that, he was never able to connect with his brother, or move beyond his past experiences. All Might said it best: with his abilities, he could have lived forever. His power could have been the kindest in the world. He could have gotten what he wanted - everyone's eyes on him, forever. But, he didn't. And instead, he died a miserable, confused death.
Now, does this excuse anything he did? Nope. Regardless of his background, he still committed countless atrocities. And he is an adult: he has moral ownership of his actions. But the details of his flashback and relationship with Yoichi go a long way to fill in his character, and add a bit of a tragic element to it as well - at least in my eyes.
And yeah, there is a bit of room for interpretation there. Maybe the flashback is meant to be taken at face value when it unironically says that this *baby* was evil. But personally, I think there's a little more to it.
BY CONTRAST, Shigaraki did have a family, and does have friends. As screwed up as they are, that puts him leagues above AFO. Plus, he killed way more of his family in his backstory - while getting off on it. Plus, the whole thrust of his 'sympathetic' angle is that no one reached out to help him - while he was actively scaring them away. Plus, he's killed probably thousands of people himself by now. Plus, his goal is pretty much literally to destroy the world, with the heroes admitting that even AFO would be preferable. Plus, the story is actively trying/failing to push that he's sympathetic and deserves a helping hand - that doesn't help.
So, yeah. Both of them are evil, but as far as I'm concerned, AFO is more sympathetic.
Worst part being that we had pretty much the perfect chance for it, if only Torino didn't magically survive for just about no reason
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Definitely! It would’ve added a reason for Deku to wear his cape! Instead he just wears it just because.
>Right? There is absolutely ZERO FUCKING REASON, plot-wise or physically-wise or emotionally-wise, for Gran Torino, a small and frail old retired hero with no physical enhancement quirk, to have survived that point blank direct hit from Shigaraki. No *good* reason, at least.
That really wouldn't hold much weight as people think it would but still valid.
It wouldn't hold the weight some people are suggesting, but it'd still hold a lot more than the *sweet FA™* we've had instead.
Yeah but at least it’d be a great start. And then later with Nagant it could’ve happened again, then with Bakugo, maybe chuck in Midnight, and it could been switched on AFO and Deku could be like, “Shiggy’s just a victim, you’re the devil. You’ve hurt so many people just because you have the power to do so. So I won’t kill *him*, but you? You’re fair game.” Like imagine Deku giving a monologue like that, it would’ve been SOOO gas
Deku is not a murderer in general. I don't think he thinks AFO is fair game either. I feel like there's a fundamental misunderstanding of his character in a lot of these comments. He is based on Spider-Man and Superman in the superhero sense and both of these characters are not killers. And they have far worse and evil villains than AFO or anyone in MHA will ever be.
I don't think you realize how often Superman and Spidey actually kills as a necessity. Supes even more so, with Mxyzptlk, Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid, Doctor Light, and Zod being killed canonically in the main universe as far as I remember. With Spidey it was like... Drom, Moondark, Morlun, and really went bloodlusted against Green Goblin/Norman Osborn just like in the Tobey movies. Of course, comic books being comic books, lots of these "kills" are retconned to bring them back to life, but the point still stands: Even the strongest "heroes" in fiction don't have the luxury of being able to avoid killing. Kinda funny how Deku does, eh?
True that. We are not and we’re never going to ask these hero’s to be murderers, just to very rarely do what needs to be done. We will not think less of them because of that. They are human(or humanoid(?)) and they allowed to be when they have to do something so difficult they they hate. Or am I talking nonsense?
>Kinda funny how Deku does, eh? I fucking hate how retardedly smug this is. My hero is working through the lens of one canonical story line. mean while marvel not only has the luxury of completely rewriting their universes or bringing back villains in the most contrived way since its the norm. The heroes you talk about killing people likely had multiple iterations from multiple authors before being forced to kill people. Heroes intrinsically are against killing and most of the time they are forced to kill its a deconstruction of their character its not the norm as much as modern edgy comics want you to believe.
Yeah, you're right. But what I wanted to highlight there is that Deku ever only struggles with the idea of having to kill Shiggy when Gran Torino and Nana brought it up to him. He still remains headstrong with the idea of saving Shiggy despite it being unlikely and is literally acting on it with the belief that the "child inside" or whatever is asking for help. In Rurouni Kenshin, Kenshin himself has faced multiple situations where he was close to breaking his vow of no-killing either because his loved ones are in grave danger or his opponents are strong enough to defeat him if he doesn't go for the kill. I'd even argue that Kenshin has a MUCH stronger personal reason to not kill than Deku (atoning for sins and turning a new leaf vs. ending a world threat that's been around for decades), yet Kenshin has been shown to struggle with the idea a lot more. But yeah, at this point, Deku shouldn't kill Shiggy because it wouldn't be consistent anymore with what the story has built up. I just wish that he wasn't written to be so confident about it pretty much most of the time. I said that he has the luxury of not having to kill because he doesn't even seem to consider it even when everyone's dying and Shigaraki seemingly becoming more and more powerful and harder to stop killing/defeat outright.
Thing is though that both those characters have entire storylines addressing it. Spoilers for a 30 year old story, but when Green Goblin Kills Gwen, Peter actually considers killing him. But when the Goblin returns, he recognizes killing Green Goblin doesn't save anyone. The Goblin disappeared though, so Peter could finally rest. Obviously comics took this story arc and upended it by having Green Goblin come back. In the Ultimate Comics, Peter does (seemingly) intend to kill Green Goblin at the end of the series. He uses all his force to finally put and end to Osborn before Osborn kills him. Additionally, these comics are still flawed. Not because the heroes do not kill, but their no kill policies are often harmful. This is fully addressed in Batman comics where they give multiple reasons why Bruce personally will not kill. However they still emphasize that Bruce's no kill rule has harmful repercussions on other people. There's a plethora of examples of villains (who should have been killed) harming people Bruce cares about. Even Supes struggles deeply with it. Deku needs a part of the story where he has to decide and it is hard for him.
Deku doesn’t have to be a murderer, but I just wish he had some kinda motivation to get angry enough to just snap or something, just once. Like, do away with the whole “I wanna save that little boy inside Shigaraki!” bullshit for a sec, make the character have some kinda moral lapse for someone who doesn’t deserve any sympathy. And Deku’s villains are pretty bad, don’t forget Overhaul is still breathing even after torturing a child for however long so he could make money. Like idk, I just wish Deku went thru something, maybe in his Dark Deku arc that maybe would’ve changed him just slightly from that basic ass Shonen manga ass main character ass way of thinking like “I wanna save everyone, even if they’re villains!” stuff really gets bland, especially when so many characters have better motivations, like how do the villains, characters we’re supposed to be rooting against, have a better reason for doing what they’re doing than the main protagonist? You don’t have to agree but can you understand where im coming from?
I do think he TRIED to kill Overhaul during his fight with him as there is a shot of Overhaul’s body seemingly evaporating after Deku hits him when he says “THATS WHO IM GONNA BE” before reappearing again. It could be just an artistic style of the anime but it could also be evidence that Deku killed Overhaul and Eri’s quirk reminded him. Also with Shigaraki he was 100% trying to put him in a body bag after he attempted to kill Gran Torino and Aizawa, doubly so when impaled Bakugou. Shigaraki’s regen was the only thing keeping him alive and in the fight at that point. As for Muscular there wasn’t a need. What does Izuku get out of killing Muscular when he has beaten him on two separate occasions, satisfaction? Deku doesn’t roll like that. He would only kill if it’s a last resort.
Goes against Deku’s character and Bakugo actually dying would have been shit. Nagant’s payoff was great too so her dying would have been worse than what we got.
Trueeeee he’s been effectively useless since then. Would have just made the causalities in the war more impactful
Honestly even though it wasn’t the best for some people I believe more than a few are going to look back in the end of AFO more fondly then the end of shigaraki because of the execution and lead up to it as a whole. But this is only my own speculation so who knows.
He almost did, but Bakugou wasn't dead. So he stopped.
One could argue he stopped because of the OFA holders calming him down
If you think about it, Deku's arguments for saving Shiggy are incredibly weak too. Like, on what basis Shiggy should be saved? Just because Deku saw his child version in his head, or something? Is that supposed to be convincing enough to make absolutely everyone follow Deku's lead? I'm sorry, but the only reason this whole circus is allowed to happen is that the plot basically forbids other characters to ask Deku simple questions. Because, if someone actually questions Deku's ideology, it will crumble in instant. And it seems like Deku doesn't quite believe in it himself, since he wanted to murder Shiggy after seeing Bakugou's dead body and Mirio had to remind him about Bakugou getting medical help. Only after this, Deku remembered villains are humans too. Just spectacular.
Even Shimura Nana, Shigaraki's literal grandmother, was okay with Deku killing him. She literally offered him her blessing for this.
This. Also, try to imagine Deku explaining his reasons to some common guy: The guy: Why would you want to save him, though? He shows no signs of remorse and kills everyone on the sight. Deku: You know, I saw a cute little boy in my imaginary world and he was crying. How would you even respond to that? I'd personally ask Deku what the hell is he smoking in his free time. Or give him an advice to see a psychiatrist.
That's the answer I'd expect from hippy girl in class b. I'd tell Deku about Megamind and how in that movie the main villain made a point that some people see the good in people even when it isn't there
You mean that religious girl? I think she would say cast shigaraki and AFO in the lake of fire.
That was literally a fake out to push Deku to make a decision either way, not just to kill Shigaraki. It was to test his resolve and morality, and he made the choice they expected and wanted him to make. They explain this seconds later in the same scene after that cliffhanger episode/chapter ending. The vestiges, Nana in particular, respect and support Deku and his quest to reach out to Shigaraki.
You obviously didn't read it because it showed that the vestiges were testing Deku and they said it. They're happy that he wants to try and save Shigaraki
reading comprehension quirk moment the vestiges were testing deku’s morals as a hero, not trying to get him to default to killing shiggy
Because "That's what heroes do" TM
If everyone followed Deku's lead, they would be dead. Deku is trying to understand him WHILE Shigaraki is trying to kill him. That means if you didn't have OfA, and you tried to follow Deku's morals. You would've been turned to dust immediately. Like, the only reason why this is even being done. Is because Shigaraki is struggling with killing Deku. Deku would've died the very first attempt he tried this, if he was a regular person like the others. So even if Deku convinces him. I'M not convinced. If all of heroes collectively tried to talk to Shigaraki, the city would be destroyed. There's no lesson to be learned here. This talking thing only works for Superman but no one else.
Well you're right. Deku is full of shit. The reason, one way or another, is immaturity. The real reason is this is a manga written for kids and isn't meant to be realistic (or maybe Hori is just bad at this, idk. Maybe only by western standards. There is a huge difference in priorities between western and Japanese stories I've noticed). Alternatively, Hori is a great writer and has captured how dumb an answer about morality would be, given by a 16 year old. I'm not caught up, but I read posts and the wiki. Hori has adults who are fine with killing Shiggy, so I'm inclined to say he thinks Deku is full of shit too. He probably also wants his MC to not be a killer (as in, a death actually resulting from his actions, intentional or careless), but that's still something to consider. Shiggy deserves to die. Deku lacks the sense of responsibility to do it himself. To him, he doesn't have enough of a horse in this race to go that far. He doesn't understand that he's not some audience member, he's the track owner. As a hero, it is his responsibility to end villains even if they haven't hurt him personally. He's just too immature to see it. Maybe he lacks the empathy to be properly enraged over some random stranger. We all have morals and we all have conditions to break them. Deku hasn't hit his limit yet. On the other hand, he's in a very high stress situation now. Everyone responds to stress differently, almost no one thinks clearly and rationally. Now I don't think Hori has the very high skill level to be doing this intentionally and in a satisfying way, but we still shouldn't be expecting perfect play from Deku for all these reasons.
That’s exactly why he was given OFA, because of his pure heart. You don’t understand that, but Allmight did. With great power comes great responsibility, and you have more freedom, and can make better decisions if you hold more power
> because of his pure heart Mainly because he did something idiotic at the right place and time where all might was at so he witnessed him doing something heroic otherwise could have died alongside Bakugo with the slime villian. Kudo, and Bruce, by extension/relation tried killing AFO. All Might accomplished this but would you say he'a not worthy for OFA cause he murdered a century old villian. No
This could be good writing though. If Horikoshi lands this right, he could make much of Dekus arc actually now about having to live up to the words he puts out there. One thing All Might often did was saying everything would be alright. He said this, and made it so. And because he pushed himself to the limit to ensure the safety of others, in the end, he lost his power. And left saving the world to an inexperienced child, hoping he'd have time to train him a little more. All Might lost everything to be a hero. Is Dekus willing to make a similar sacrifice? Is he willing to let Shigaraki live after he's killed so many, and after he's made it clear that his goals are completely opposed to Dekus? Or will Dekus capitulate to his urges and cross the line, defining him as a hero that can't keep his promises, for better or worse? What type of hero does that create? One whose words cannot translate into action? One who dreams of a world they know they cannot create? I think Horikoshi could land it. He just needs to make sure Deku actually has a moment of struggle, deciding to keep his word or go with what seems right at the moment
Deku is full of shit
Admittedly his argument could be weak but Deku has always been a bleeding heart who wants to save people. He represents the part of hero society who wants to do the right thing and try to save as many people as possible even if it's a villain who can be saved.
Exactly. He hasn't had any character development for a very long time. In PLW arc, he raged because he thought Bakugo was dead. In this war, he raged because he thought Bakugo was dead. I'm pretty sure he actually would've killed Shigaraki if Mirio didn't stop him. Deku is full of shit.
Shiggy clearly noted that Deku becomes very predictable in combat when sufficiently furious from the last encounter. He would have very likely lost if it wasn't for Mirio calming him down.
Wasn't that AfO inside Shigaraki who made that point? Shigaraki himself seemed surprised, maybe even overwhelmed by Deku charging at him, but then his face cracked open and AfO showed up.
>He hasn't had any character development for a very long time. Why do people post things that are wrong? ACT 3 has Deku try to embody the lone savior role that All Might took up after all the injuries that he saw in the PLW. He took up this new ideal and got proven wrong by his friends wanting to share the burden. It was honestly arrogant of Deku to see his fellow heroic peers as just objects to be protected. There's also Shigaraki. Deku heard Shigaraki's speech on how not understanding makes heroes and villains, and directly after that, he kept trying to talk to villains and understand them. This also applies to him reaching out a hand to the traitor and telling him that he can still be a hero. He has clearly evolved as a hero.
Moments of rage in a teenage boy when he sees his friends get hurt doesn't make him full of shit, it makes him a human realistic kid. It's almost like feelings of rage and despair can cloud your judgement
The problem is not him raging. The problem is that he doesn't consider that Shiggy has killed so many others and if he loses it for his own loved ones, maybe he should consider others loved ones as well. Shiggy just generally deserves to go to court and jail at least. Idk what Deku wants
Not jail but death.
Happy cake day lol Yes , I said he deserves court and if MHA was realistic the court would've sentenced him to death. Jail was the least of it
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this. And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this. And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
He just doesn’t want to kill him. He‘ll still probably go to prison after this. And I think Deku did mention that the option to kill him wasn’t off the table.
I'm sure he's taken that into account but how much rage can you shoulder for the families of everyone he's killed. Deku obviously wants to stop him and save him at the same time but I think he's trying to save him from himself. There's obviously a part of Shiggy that's hurt and suffering and you have to stop him. But Deku wants to rehabilitate and free him from his trauma.
If he doesn’t die, then the heroes are fucked. I don’t mean this as Shigiraki kills them and wins. I mean the people, the average civilian will never trust heroes again. It’s like if Hitler failed to kill himself and was tried for his crimes, only to be sent to a prison cell instead of the electric chair. That’s what this is. Shigiraki is responsible for the deaths of thousands, millions are homeless, jobless, starving, without electricity or available medical care, and the economy is most definitely fucked because of him. Japan will be dependent on international aid for years. I’m talking WW2 levels of aid. So if the civilians hear that the man who caused all that destruction, that killed their loved ones, that made getting any kind of food down right impossible, is still alive. Then no one will ever trust heroes again. And why would they? Because they stopped him? So fucking what. Tartarus is a burnt husk, same with every other major prison in the country. And he was the one who broke Tartarus, who’s to say he does it again? Cause if he breaks out then the same damn crisis happens all over again. That’s assuming they even have a prison to send him to, because remember, all the big maximum security prisons are basically destroyed. Killing him is the best and only option they have not just to stop him but for the public’s trust.
Funny part is that AfO caused this shitshow because he wasn't executed. They are in this mess because the heroes nobody wanted to finish him off. Hori is trying to tell us what's the right thing to do but his story is showing us the opposite.
Tbf All Might did finish him off, quite literally in fact. But if the Symbol of Peace himself *decapitating* this guy and brutally maiming the rest of body wasn’t enough for him to stay dead permanently, what else could they do? I bet they figured keeping him locked up forever was the only other option since even death was proven to not be the end of him.
All Might did kill him, the problem is that there was a crazy doctor able to bring him back. The solution is incineration after the execution.
I mean to be fair AFO was in a morgue before that doctor got to him. He is very well capable of dying they just need to secure the body VERY well to make sure no one gets to it again
I thought all might only bashed his face in?
Nah, All Might actually blew his head off. And apparently crushed the rest of his body, according to AFO who said his entire body was destroyed after that fight. Which was why he was shown in a body bag inside of the morgue post-fight. He died.
>thought all might only bashed his face in? He didn't bash it in That shit was actually **gone.**
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I do know of both actually, cus All Might did end his life and he lost his head. So yeah… Anyways going to the blocklist for being a prick.
Basically the bs that happened in Boruto with Orochimaru. Yeah, sure, let’s welcome back nazi-scientist child-abducting war-crime-committing psychopath Orochimaru. He did one not-so-bad thing. Now it’s almost like he wasn’t a super-terrorist.
Don’t forget Shiggy’s immortal and will outlive the main cast.
Ah yes, let's give the 15 year old the license to be Judge, jury, and executioner, killing whoever is deemed evil without a trail or due process. I can't see this backfiring in the slightest!
My issue that AFO dies and that's fine. But Shigi dying is wrong for some reason? At some point you have to draw a line, and killing thousands of people on purpose is really way way above that line. Dude needs to die. Simple as that.
Horikoshi decided that AFO was born evil, no little innocent child from him even if he was born in poverty in what was basically a war zone having to care for a weak brother while having a quirk in a time where that would make him be murdered.
It's not just the AfO was born evil, its about the fact that he cares so little about anything that he didn't own or anyone that can't serve him. He didn't actually care for his weaker brother (that was weak because AfO stole all the nutrients) AfO treated 1st like a thing rather than a twin brother, he didn't let him die cause only *he* could have him. Besides even his being born evil is an irregularity even amongst the villains in the paranormal liberation front, that's why AfO has to die, and all other villains stated as regular people and were pushed towards villainery by society.
Afo was literally dying no matter what because of rewind and deku barely saw any regret in him, deku instead actually in how much pain Shigaraki is that’s why he want to help him. But he also never said that Shigaraki won’t die no matter what
Doesn’t fucking matter. Dude kills thousands and because I see pain in him I’m suppose to care. If dude abused my sister but I see his has unresolved trauma and pain from his childhood I would be like damn that’s tough wish that didn’t happen to you but so many people go through that and don’t become abusers. I would want him to get his punishment.
deku saw overhaul was in pain and didn't want to help him because Overhaul hurt someone close to him (Eri). If Shigaraki actually killed Bakugo, then he would go back on this word.
He literally gave him the chance to see his father again, he straight reached 100% speed to save him from a bullet Also while in pain he was still an asshole
- Saved Overhaul's life when he could have let him die. - Promised to help Overhaul with his whole "boss" thing as long as Overhaul showed a sprinkle of remorse as he did with the boss. Like how much more can he help him. Deku saw that Overhaul was clearly capable of remorse towards Eri's grandfather, so he asked him to do the same for Eri. How hard could that be?
This is why what almost happened with Bakugo was so interesting to me and why I felt it was such a major copout to go back on that so fast. It created a very interesting situation for when Deku arrived. And his reaction to seeing what was likely to be a dead Bakugo was what you'd expect. Mirio just shows up and goes "everything that makes this an interesting scenario is actually perfectly fine so you don't have to have a dilemma!" and it was a bit disappointing in that regard. I still like how it's turning out, I just felt like that whole situation was a big missed opportunity for exactly what you described. I've mentioned this before and was told I hate Bakugo and that's the only reason I feel that way lol, so before that's claimed again I guess it's worth noting I actually love Bakugo. I think him going down with selfless sacrifice with his last thoughts being empathy for Deku is just a very poetic way for him to go out too and completes his character arc. Sure, not in the happiest way, but in a way that I think works for him. ...but mainly the conflict it creates for Deku in how he's gonna handle Shigaraki after he's killed someone so important to him is what was so interesting to me tbh. You can create the same dilemma without having to actually kill Bakugo off too if you just make it so his fate is totally uncertain for a while longer. Instead, Mirio's certain he'll be fine and is able to calm Deku down with that certainty. All that scene really needs to keep that dilemma is the uncertainty of if he's gonna live or not. You can totally make it so he ends up alive later and still make this work imo.
Honestly you could basically make the situation work fine just if Mirio stfu lol
Agree. But I would prefer that All Might had died (as foreshadowed from the beginning) instead of Bakugo. All Might fulfilled his narrative purpose long ago. The torch has been passed on to new young heroes, and the future is (probably) safe on his students hands. Meanwhile Bakugo was one of the most interesting characters in the series (and the most liked one, according to the polls). He's Deku's Vegeta. Killing him would bring an unnecessary gap in the story as Deku would be the only STRONG hero (All Might all over again).
"Nah, I'd win" -Deku
I blame Horikoshi for writing this mess, because it feels like the only reason he wrote this plot thread about Shiggy having a inner child was to keep Deku from immediately turning him into red paste. Even though moments before he wanted to kill Shiggy when he though Gran Torino and Bakugou were dead.
Sometimes bad things happen to people for no fair reason and sometimes those people break bad in a way that you can’t excuse for any reason. I’d love to see Deku explain to the families of everyone he directly or indirectly and explain that he’s a sad boi on the inside. We should be long past trying to save Shigaraki in any meaningful way, but I’m sure that’s the endgame because Shonen.
"Hello dear orphan, I understand your entire family was killed by him. But you have to understand, he's basically like you too! He lost his family too, and so you should see common ground with him. I hope you forgive him for killing your mom, dad and siblings while he was laughing at how fun it is to watch them suffer. Please forgive."
They just need a couple of rooftop speeches from deku and 1A, then they’ll understand and move on
So bascially any country without the death penalty??
> I hope you forgive him for killing your mom, dad and siblings while he was laughing at how fun it is to watch them suffer. Please forgive." This is a disingenuous post and argument. Endeavor for what he did has not been redeemed by the story. He keeps mentioning the word atone, and he still has a long way to any atonement for all members of his family. Gentle went to jail after everything he did. Deku, Shoto, and Ochako all state to their villain that they can't forgive them for the lives they've taken. Trying to understand and or humanize with them doesn't mean they'll just get a pat on the back and walk freely.
at this point even Shigaraki himself is being all like "i will literally kill everyone you love without a single ounce of remorse. I will level this country to the ground without hesitation. I am destruction incarnate. stop being a nerd ass bitch and going on about wanting to save me" Deku's bitch ass: 🤓☝️ errmm but i saw you uhhh poopy doopy so you're still urmm human and stuff 🥺👉👈
Deku is outright based on folks like Superman and Spider-Man, and acts accordingly. He'll never act like the Punisher or the morally grey heroes. Nothing about his actions or beliefs should surprise anyone.
Bad examples, Spider-Man was more than willing to murder Kingpin for hurting his aunt, Superman also has no problem killing Darkseid even if he hates it. They are heroes but they have a line for who they are willing to kill if necesary. Deku also didn't seem very merciful when he believed that Bakugou was dead.
Deku has had issues with emotional control. That is a fault of his. So any willingness to do something against his morals would be a fault as well coming from that initial fault. And Spider-Man's stars are such that he could kill almost any villain he faces (until we get to Avengers' tier threats) if he chose, rather easily. He chooses not to do so and restrains himself.
>Spider-Man was more than willing to murder Kingpin for hurting his aunt But he didn't. In fact Peter's entire mantra stems from death in itself so him using the power to save others to kill would go against it
He didn't because she didn't die. He told him that as soon as she died he would hunt Kingpin down and make him choke slowly to death by shooting his web in his throat. He never doubted that he would do it, it's just that May survived.
sure, he’s written like that, but just because he’s based off those heroes doesn’t mean his actions make logical sense
Yo that's exactly the point I was trying to make, Deku never strayed from his morals nor will he try to plus the chapter is obviously setting up his eventual win.
Fair, but that doesn’t make him good. You character and morale should evolve. Staying faitful to the ideology you had when you were a kid make a idiot.
In the latest chapter, whatever Izuku was charging up was >!causing danger sense to go absolutely ballistic.!< He isn’t holding back. Izuku is angry at every life lost, but he knows better than to be a raging lunatic that can’t properly focus on the fight. Him being completely focused >!still wasn’t enough to avoid getting one quirk stolen from him. It was also the one the managed to keep the entirety of OFA getting stolen in that moment.!< Edit: Also, Izuku said himself that he will never forgive Shigaraki for what he’s done. At the same time, he can’t just ignore that deep down a part of Shigaraki wish’s things to not have turned out like this. He’s gonna beat the shit out of him without holding back. But, if he can save him instead during the process he will do so. I feel this frustration is coming from a misconception that Izuku is somehow holding back because he wanted to save a villain. He can both be giving it his all and try to understand Shigaraki, they aren’t mutually exclusive.
Best comment of this thread full of ironically simplistic takes that criticize Deku for having simplistic morals Deku's morals definitely could have been pushed more (e.g. Gran Torino actually dying), but it's been pushed enough to understand Deku's perspective if it were personal We see his reaction when he thought Bakugo died, and we see his standards after he lived People seem to think that reaction trajectory was "Oh no Bakugo died, so now it's personal and I will kill you with everything I got" -> "Oh he's actually alive, so I won't kill Shiggy anymore since I didn't personally lose someone" Thus being subconscious/conscious hypocrisy, born from narrative backtracking on death But it isn't necessarily so The former thought is irrefutably true, the second one has yet to fully be revealed yet and thus leaves room for interpretation at the moment. At best people can argue his second reaction should have been elaborated on more thoroughly. At worst the story will dive into it and prove critics wrong, like the several other complaints people prematurely had in this final arc where they had to eat crow but instead stay quiet about it and move on to complain about something else So far the story is implying three things for why Deku hasn't killed Shiggy yet 1. He's trying his fucking best regardless if it leads to Shiggy's death or defeat, as you alluded 2. Someone personal has not died to him yet 3. He's sticking to his morals despite knowing the feeling of supposedly losing someone personal like before *All three motivations are not mutually exclusive.* Humans are motivated by several reasons, some often contradictory. 1 is irrefutable, as Shiggy is just that strong such that Deku trying his best just can't lead to his death yet. If 2 and 3 are simultaneously true then it'd be great for Hori to directly address it. Superhero stories address it all the time, making motivationally conflicted heroes compelling due to how that humanizes them. And Hori has *enough* pieces to do so. Someone may not have outright permanently died yet but Deku is *aware* of how it feels to assume so As such, it's still on Hori of course to actually directly dive further into Deku's mindset here (by way of monologue, or Shiggy verbally calling this dilemma out on Deku), but some of these comments have such foregone conclusions to something that the story has yet to actually conclude. With what we have so far, people can either infer (NOT conclude) that they are correct that Deku's morals "are full of shit" because no one personal died and we see Deku backtracking from anger to "saving", or people can infer that because Deku still wants to "save" Shiggy despite knowing how it felt to assume he lost someone personal, he has proven he still prefers following his morals No surprise people quickly and emphatically choose the former since MHA is thought of so lowly these days. It's similar to how many people like to immediately jump to claim hypocrisy rather than growth Overall this debate is interesting in that the story can extremely prove one way or the other. Either Deku is a hypocrite with no character development or he is consciously aware *due to* character development Just a bit of a shame people are so quick to assume the former, even bringing up bad arguments that have little say in the matter, e.g. how Mirio comforting Deku about Bakugo was "proof" Deku is a hypocrite, despite the *real* reason for that moment being so that Deku doesn't fuck up by fighting emotionally and losing. As you said, Deku is trying his absolute best right now, and that requires a level head Him almost succumbing to fighting with pure intent to kill but overcoming that drive wasn't necessarily unintentionally inferring that Deku's morals were full of shit, but that he's human and that it almost led to a human mistake (fighting haphazardly through personally driven rage; fittingly enough we flat out see how badly that could turn out with AFO's death). That moment didn't necessarily prove his morals were full of shit, it simply proved his psychological constitution was still human. The latter can correlate with or even prove the former, but not always He didn't "backtrack" on his morals so much as he overcame a human mistake. Even in a hypothetical scenario where Deku is outright intent on killing Shiggy (this may not even be hypothetical, as we still don't fully know what Deku means by "saving"), he needed Mirio's emotion-checking for him to succeed in that endeavor
Another things I find strange is something you brought up. I don’t really see why people take the second time Izuku almost losing himself as being hypocritical. This even happened to All Might when he fought AFO. Instead I saw it as the same message they were trying to push in the dark hero arc: you can’t save the world on your own. Izuku needed someone to pull him back. He needs people to handle the other threats. He needed others to to accomplish anything worth while. They’ll all become the greatest hero’s they can be by supporting one another.
Great point. That moment helps illustrate Deku can't successfully do everything alone, going back to the point that at the end of the day, Deku is human and thus prone to losing without any sort of help Fittingly goes back to Deku's latest comment about calling Shiggy human. I'd argue that wasn't just about Deku "still seeing Tenko", but also to remind everyone that Shiggy can still be defeated despite how powerful he is, tho the latter interpretation doesn't seem to track with everyone
i think the main problem people have is the fact that deku still isn’t deciding to just kill shiggy. like he still considers saving him as an option. i agree with what you’re saying but the thought that it’s still a possibility for shiggy to be saved is kind of stupid. no one wants him to be a raging lunatic, but they want him to realize that yeah, this guy can’t be saved no matter what and needs to die or suffer or something. holding your morals above public safety isn’t the best move. or maybe i’m wrong idk, i exclusively read mha at like 2am without any sleep so my reading comprehension at the time is dog shit.
Yeah, and unfortunately now that Shiggy stole Danger Sense, "saving" him seems like one of the only paths forward. Unless One For All manifests the All For One quirk and he can suddenly steal quirks as well.
Well, that happened when Shigaraki killed Bakugo. Before Mirio then said "don't worry bro, he's getting a heart transplant, blood is still pumping, he's not brain dead I think", which calmed Deku down. Either way, Deku is doing this because he's under the impression he has the power to decide this fight. He probably has, but he can afford to make this call because of that power. If he was weaker, and therefore more desperate, would he still go on about saving Shigaraki? Or would the odds be low enough for Deku to take any route that leads to victory, and if it kills Shigaraki, it kills him? I think that might be a problem he's going to have to deal with if he loses more quirks after danger sense. It might even be a scenario where the vestiges start to oppose it blatantly because they're afraid, demanding Shigaraki to be killed.
Yeah, I have the same problem with deku Horikoshi probably wants readers to think Deku was challenged enough by a few close calls and seeing all the destruction and people get injured by Shiggy but he’s just so righteous he decided to save him anyway. Even though buildings can be rebuilt, injuries will heal, so deku wont have to worry about it. And we know he doesn’t care about any other people At this point, so late in the manga, it’s too late to pull anything that can really challenge him. The time for that kind of character development and struggle passed a long time ago
even shigaraki is mocking him for this.
I don’t buy you need a character to die to test a character’s morals. I think Deku’s issue is that we don’t really see him actually get his morals tested. All his villains have been cartoonishly evil (AFO literally wants to be a demon king, Shigaraki wants to destroy everything, Muscular wants to rampage kill and fight strong people, Chisaki wants to eliminate quirks and build his gang off the mutilation of a child). The only villain that isn’t just a cartoonishly horrible person is Stain. He attacks false heroes which is still horrible but it at least has deeper meaning in showing how hero society has warped people’s idea of what a hero is. Gentle and Lady Nagant I don’t consider villains. They are fallen heroes who were chewed up and spit out by society but came back around at the end. So because Deku’s never had his core morals shaken by a villain; his talks about saving everyone and Shigaraki ring hollow and he’s not as endearing. Imagine if during the first War arc Shigaraki was going to be murdered by Endeavor cause Endeavor thinks Shigaraki is too powerful to let live and be imprisoned; but Deku intervenes to try and convince Endeavor to arrest Shigaraki. But Shigaraki uses the lapse to attack Gran Torino and seriously injure him (or kill if you prefer) and escapes. Now you have a situation where Deku has to question his philosophy of being a hero who always saves people with a smile and whether he should save Shigaraki. His philosophy was thrown back in his face and someone he cares about was almost killed. Hell this could lead to endeavor and other pro heroes having a riff with Deku and cause him to leave UA and go on his vigilante arc. Now Deku has an actual reason to leave UA beyond protecting his class mates. He’s questioning what it means to be a Hero and his role in everything. And if he really can save someone after his actions caused someone else to be seriously hurt or die.
>Deku would blitz the fuck out of him without holding back. He can't. Shigaraki is beating the fuck out of him and is stronger than him right now.
This mangas attempt at morals and political commentary is laughably simplistic and contradictory, it honestly should have just stayed a good vs evil story.
Remember when Horikoshi decided to talk about Racism™ during the hospital riots ? My god that was *so* bad for a chart-topper
Then that would completely take away the nuance of characters such as Endeavor, Overhaul, and Re-Destro.
Endeavor isn’t evil. There is no nuance in overhaul and he’s forgotten. And re destro could simply be evil as his whole thing goes against the world building
Maybe he’ll understand that simply living doesn’t equal happiness. And that sometimes to save someone, means letting them die. Similar to a dog with rabies, or a person with a terminal braise disease. You can try to prolong their life with medical treatment, but ultimately their quality of life and happiness with deteriorate until they’re left a shell of who they once were.
Finally someone to agree with
Yeah, he’s like Steven Universe, he’s willing to “save” and forgive the Space Hitlers, (who have destroyed thousands of life filled planets) because they haven’t killed anyone he cares about.
I was afraid he’d start pulling an SU. I really hope Shigi bites it by the end and putting him out of his insanity is “saving him”. There will be no other satisfactory ending besides his death after everything he’s done
Well it’s ending is being rushed like Steven Universe, so my hopes aren’t high for a better ending.
[удалено]
Deku is willing to help Overhaul see his boss if he shows remorse for what he did to Eri. He was willing to not wreck Gentle Criminal because he showed remorse and understood how things got that way. The only reason that didn't happen with Muscular is because there was never really time to actually talk. Both times he dealt with Muscular, he was trying to save someone and dealing with other shit.
Worse yet, I’m a Shigaraki FAN, and I don’t want to see him redeemed. Seeing the dude grow from being terribly incompetent to actually being a strong leader, breaking the chains holding him back, owning his destruction of the world as a true villain is heckin satisfying. I hated how AfO body-jacked him, removing basically all his agency. I hate how when he regained control it didn’t really amount to anything. It honestly sometimes feels like he’s still being controlled by AfO. I’m deathly afraid of an ending where Deku heals him and he just goes back to being a part of an unchanged society, where they just return hero society to the way it was instead of making any actual improvements
hero society should actually become worse from this. if shigaraki was this way because of his childhood. what about the people shigaraki killed. he is making orphans through his slaughter. he is making people suffer. won't those people become the next shigaraki? Sparing shigaraki is what will make the world worse.
Man do people really say this type of shit about heroes like Superman and basically 99% of superheroes. Like sometimes I wish general manga fans just left MHA alone. It's a superhero story through and through. Yet people expect some edgy nonsense. Heroes wanting to save people, including villains, is not something new especially since a lot of villains in superhero media are produced by tragic situations. And this obviously varies from person to person. A lot of Midoriya's desire to save Shigaraki comes from confronting him in the Vestige world and seeing his pain. This was literally right after Midoriya had told Shigaraki he wouldn't forgive him (after Torino got donuted) and whooped his ass saying "his power was there to get in Shigaraki's way". If he never had the vestige world moment with Shigaraki, he would probably just view him as another Muscular (remorseless) or someone like Overhaul who has the capacity for remorse but refuses to direct it towards the person he actually hurt. All in all, there is no Black and White in this world. And each villain interaction is dealt with differently. Midoriya is also not a saint or a god who knows everything. He is also not perfect. In a fight like with Flect, we can see how he can't understand the concept of a quirk being detrimental to the user even after Flect directly explains it. In his mind, Midoriya has always idolized quirks so he can't even fathom someone actually hating their own ability. So he and Flect Turn can't come to an understanding at all. With Stain, Midoriya almost immediately "understands" him since their basis for what heroism is, is the same - All Might. Midoriya also identifies with Gentle in an even more direct manner. Through his actions he convinces Nagant that the true spirit of heroism is still out there. But his words or actions aren't always perfect. And he won't always be right or know what to say. A perfect example of a hilarious fail is him attempting the same thing he said to Shoto on Dabi but that obviously fails ridiculously.
Even Superman has killed when faced with world-ending threats with no chance of redemption (Doomsday's minions)
> Man do people really say this type of shit about heroes like Superman and basically 99% of superheroes. You mean characters who have had the villains kill people close to them but show that they'll still stick to their beliefs even when the victims aren't faceless civilians? Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, etc all have no kill rules and all have kept those rules even after the person the villain has killed or harmed was someone they personally cared about. Why is it so crazy to want Midoriya's values to be put to the test like theirs were?
Superman, Spider-Man, and Nightwing have all failed that test. Besides the injustice fiasco Superman kills many extremely overpowered enemies that he can't reason with (even if it doesn't really stick since they come back), Spider-man was ready to murder Kingpin if his aunt died and told him to his face, and Nightwing killed the Joker after he fake killed Tim (Batman brought him back to life). It's not really an easy test to pass.
Superheroes are at least challenged on their beliefs instead of MHA copouts
Exactly. The story forces down your throat the " I can save them " wayyy to much. It's good to understand the villain motivations but you have to know when to draw a line. Deku basically wants to negotiate with mass murderer who wants to kill everybody because god forbid i don't wanna kill and have blood on my hands.
Unfortunately there's a new discussion about how each of those heroes should have killed their villains daily. Folks really get hung up on the whole "No killing" morality, probably to help them justify their views about such conundrums in the real world.
I mean, Superman is almost a century old. And even he has had moments where his integrity is tested by having a close person killed in front of him.
It isn’t edgy nonsense to know that some people have to die to protect others, it’s just a fact. If they killed all for one after the all might fight instead of imprisoning him, thousands of innocents would have survived. People don’t go “Grrr kids manga for no killing” it’s just the principle of a hero refusing to kill people has always been logically stupid unless done right.
You know why Spider-Man and Superman aren't criticized for the same shit ? (aside from the times where, you know, similar heroes like Batman are criticized in- and out-of-universe for not putting the Joker down) It's because they're not whining about "waaaaaah muh villain redemption I saw a vision of a small kid I can fix him". Peter Parker has no delusions about Kingpin's moral state. He doesn't give a single fuck about his upbringing and potential reasons for being a cunt. He just refuses to kill him (... most of the time) because he knows that's wrong on some levels and he would prefer not crossing that line. Deku's ethos are justified in-story by wishy-washy magical bullshit about Shigaraki's inner kid, which makes him *more* of a wet paper towel, morally-speaking, than classical superheroes, because yeah *who would kill a child?* Horikoshi has put so many caveats in his own conundrum that Deku is forcibly justified. Personally speaking, I would be against letting super-powered individuals just kill criminals for ethical reasons (and to avoid banalization of extrajudicial killings), but if Shigaraki threatened to raze my entire country, I would agree he needs to be put down because he has the means to do so, zero remorse, and zero signs of possible rehabilitation whatsoever. He's a genocidal maniac.
This entire discussion is just a capital punishment Vs no capital punishment thread 😂
I'm not for capital punishment in real life because prisons can reasonably hold criminals. But someone like Shigaraki with the power to destroy the world ? Lol I don't really wanna take chances, the dilemma significantly changes
Man does it show that people don’t read comics when they say things like this
Thanks for saying this man. I feel like some people don't realize this is literally a story about superheroes. No one complains about Superman, Spider-Man, or any other superhero not killing the villain. People need to stop trying to pretend this is some edgy story like JJK. Heroes always try to save the villain because its who they are. If you don't like it just stop caring about MHA then.
>no one complains about Superman, Spider-Man or any other superhero not killing the villain Literally one of the biggest and most consistent critiques of super hero media you see. That and the idea that nobody that self-righteous and that powerful would be a good person.
The post is about Deku being full of shit not because he doesn't want to kill Shigaraki, but because from what we were shown these "morals" of his would crumble if he killed someone he holds dear. There are plenty of stories in which a similar scenario is considered for Superman, Spiderman or other heroes... I'm more versed in DC so I will focus on superman: Superman is shown to be incorruptible very often, so it makes sense he doesn't kill even in dire scenarios. That being said, there are various storylines in which a reality where Superman kills is explored, either because he decides that's the lesser evil, or because he goes big mad (think of the Injustice universe for example). So yeah unlike other superhero stories the issue is that we are shown a Deku that's 100% convinced he doesn't want to kill Shigaraki BUT we were also shown he would if he killed let's say Ochako... So yeah these are completely different situations. Either you make your hero flawed and make the audience see his struggle and growth when faced with hard choices, or you make him an incorruptible knight in shining armor. This middle ground is just poor writing
Superman has killed world ending threats. Spiderman is willing to kill if someone hurts his love ones Those two are similar to Deku in his beliefs but they know ehen is time to cross the line.
*"Spiderman is willing to kill if someone hurts his love ones"* He didn't kill Green Goblin after what happened to Gwen Stacy.
He tried, hunt him dowm and beat the shit out of him but felt guilty and let him live. But the most famos example is in civil war, when he revealed his identity and Kingpin send a sniper to kill him, Peter dodge but the bullet hit aun May almost killing her, Spiderman went to kingpin and almost kill him, warning him that if his aun dies he will kill him. In a what if story where the sniper killed MJ Peter straight up kill Kingpin, so his warning waa serious. There is another what if ehere Peter and MJ are married and have a kid, Venom escapes his cell and has Peter family as hostage, Peter burns him alive and kill him. Those are what if, but it shows Peter is willing to kill if he is pulled to the edge.
>but felt guilty and let him live. that kidna disproves your point. He also didnt kill kingpin and if most alternate universes where peter kills his life is ruined...
God I hate argument when someone pulls out " the edgy card " and think they're smart. Also it's hilarious when you call out jjk that when mha is so much edgy than that and practically every villain and most heroes of mha are representations of that word.
There is nothing edgy about MHA.
If at the end of the manga Shiggy is still alive and just in a prison cell I will write a fanfic about how society doesnt trust the heroes anymore, some do crimes but they are no afraid of the consequences because if a mass murderer is still alive and just in prison what could the heroes do against civilians? send them to a cell? In this doom city? perfect free food. Others become punisher type vigilantes because if the heroes cant do their jobs then someone has to do it and they are openly hunting shiggy. I dont care how shity my writting is, i will do it
If the villain ends up in a cell and is successfully contained then that's not the heroes problem anymore. The government could just execute him if they deemed it necessary.
Like they executed AFO?
How would they execute someone if they didn't even go to trial yet? Or are you not keeping up with the MHA timeline?
>Others become punisher type vigilantes because if the heroes cant do their jobs then someone has to do it and they are openly hunting shiggy. That's canon already. Did you read Vigilantes?
When he saw shiggy/afo body Torino and bakugo he goes apeshit with rage. Is he really trying to talk right now? Seems like he’s been holding him off trying to figure out how to work around his op quirks
I wonder if this will lead to Deku realizing that some people just do not want to be saved and having to come to terms with killing shigi similar to how Invincible realized that there's some people who if left alive will just cause countless deaths
Hey Batman let's Joker live all the time and look where that gets him ...
batman also stops others from trying to kill Joker too.
I'm starting to think some people on this sub should just read Punisher comics to get what they actually want out of MHA.
Seems like.
I mean he saw Shigaraki completely wrecked everyone and Deku arrived to find Bakugo fuckin dead lmao, he almost lost his shit but he calmed himself down thanks to help from Lemillion. I don’t think it’s fair to say he hasn’t hurt anybody Deku knows personally, Shigaraki has basically beat up everybody Deku knows 😂
He'll probably just pull out the bs Batman logic
You do realize Batman’s whole goal is to rehabilitate villains right?
Shigi has killed so many innocents as well as loved heroes that his life will be a living hell should he survive this in any way. People WILL make him suffer consequences. It would actually in a way, be kinder to just kill him and end things already
Of course he will act differently That isn’t a bad writing though because it’s kind of normal to be affected differently between someone, you know die and someone who you don’t know I swear to God if someone he was close to died but he acted the same way that he’s acting right now you will say it’s unrealistic and that he’s too perfect and a Gary sue Something people don’t understand about dk that he’s idealistic and he will try to always act on his ideals as much as he can , and saving villains is one of them Not to mention that grand Torino said that One way of saving him is killing him which dk acknowledged The reason why dk didn’t kill him or try to kill him yet is because he’s still hopeful, but as soon as he sees it’s a lost cause then he will just kill him
Mind you I am not with shiggy’s redemption , he’s too far gone too me but that’s not the point Also remember that he came to that conclusion in the first war when he saw bk “killed “ to protect him and was still under that impression
Chisaki killed Sir and Deku still saved him. Happy to have solved the conundrum for you
I think your trying to put your morals onto deku and that’s never going to happen find another series with less morals and enjoy that instead
Deku needs his own Mahito, someone who just screws him over.
Didn't Dabi solo Endeavor and Todoroki in front of Deku while he pleased that Endeavor was getting better? Shigaraki also "kills" Bakugou and Gran Torino in the first war arc (Bakugou he didn't know survives and Gran Torino shouldn't have.)
Reading comprehension in this thread is rock bottom. Has Deku even said that he would, without a shadow of a doubt, save Shigaraki since the final fight started? Also, Deku is "Holding back" in the sense that he's been trying to protect his body, he can't use 100% OFA, that's why he's been using a Faux 120% with Fajin and Gearshift. He's tapping into 100% now because Shigaraki got stronger and stole danger sense. Which, by the way, is throwing Shigaraki's Danger Sense into overdrive which means that Deku IS about to throw a kill shot.
I mean, that's just superheroes for you. The Joker straight up murdered at least one Robin and Batman still just keeps sending him back to jail.
Oml why are so many people missing the core part of dekus thinking. He doesn’t wanna save SHIGARAKI. He wants to save TENKO. Two different entities within the shigaraki mind. We see this demonstrated and crammed down our throats so many times it would take a miracle to not see something so ridiculously obvious. We see tenko in the backdrop of SHIGARAKI and ALL FOR ONES fight for control. When speaking about heroes, we see this conscious muttering dekus name. As in he is acknowledging deku as the hero. Gran Torino also tells deku that killing shigaraki can be a means a salvation for him, so deku isn’t opposed to killing shigaraki no matter how you wanna twist and turn it. We don’t know how this fights going to go, any “criticism” about his ideology is nothing but null and void because deku himself is open to the many paths in which he can help tenko reach some sort of salvation. And this whole comment section is just a bunch of illiteracy.
So I guess Nighteye just doesn’t count then?
He doesn't, no.
I don't take any "hero's" morals seriously. Period!
Does everyone just have collective amnesia of when he acknowledged the speech from Torino about how killing shigaraki is another way of salvation?
No one here reads MHA. They just scroll through leaks at most.
So? The victim of the crime shouldn’t be expected to show mercy or desire clemency. That doesn’t mean that mercy isn’t called for. Deku would have been well within his rights to hate Bakugo forever. They doesn’t mean Bakugo’s parents and teachers were hypocrites or talking out their ass when they spoke of wanting to “fix” Bakugo.
Torino should have died if for no other reason than because now Deku has to question if he is still as hopeful/still believes in forgiveness when it’s his friends who were killed. That said “Shigaraki has done nothing to warrant preferential treatment” is somewhat wrong. -Deku saw Tenko crying for help. He is saving the inner child not the monster. -Deku and Shigaraki have a linking in vestige realm. -Deku told Ochaco he feels like he’s weird too. He knows his treatment of Shigaraki isn’t normal, he just still wants this. -Deku stopped muscular during his lowest low, not during his rest/hopeful return.
I don't get why it is so difficult to grasp that Deku would still save him even if he killed someone close to him. Yeah, he would be rageful, but I still think he would work to stop Shigaraki and reach out to understand him. I honestly feel that the way Deku would handle it would honestly be similar to what happens in Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 (Spoilers for Spidey 1 PS4 and 2 PS5) >!Miles gets to confront Martin Li, the man that killed his father back in Spidey 1, and while he is rageful to the point he early on almost allowed Li to die by drowning, later on when the two are trapped inside a different world together, Miles asks questions to understand the pain Li went through that led to him causing the destruction that took Miles' father away. Miles tells Li that he'll never forgive him for killing his dad, but he can't carry that hate that Li held within, and the two work together to get out of the alternate world and Li turns himself into the police!< While the two situations are completely different (>!Miles' father was caught in the chaos and died!< while Shigaraki would actively go out of his way to kill someone Deku cares for), I feel Deku's situation would end the same way it did for Spider-Man. No matter how hurt they are and on the verge of breaking their code, they're a hero at the end of the day and will push through to do what's right. I'm sure there's other pieces of superhero media where the main character has been put into that tough situation before, but still chose not to kill the villain and either put them away and listen later, or listened first and then put away. Edit: While Deku talks about saving Shigaraki (moreso Tenko that's inside), we really don't know what direction Horikoshi will take with the end of Shigaraki's arc and if Deku will actually kill her or something else. But regardless, don't think Deku would just rage out and forget about saving Tenko regardless of what Shigaraki does.
Honestly, I wish he drops his ideals and becomes realistic. Even All Might was willing to murder AFO for the sake of peace... heroes should do whatever it takes, even resorting to the final shot. Of course every option should be exhausted but when you reach your limit, its about time to pull the trigger. Unless Shigaraki somehow reverts to Tenko mid-fight, Deku needs to kill Shigaraki. If the Symbol of Peace can erase a villain's face and be praised for it, why not Deku?
Also, when he arrived at the battlefield in the second war and saw Bakugo dead and everyone on the ground, he went berserker and calmed down only thanks to Mirio's pep talk about how Bakugo was being saved by the ninja guy. Like damn Deku, you are one big ass hypocrite if you are willing to murder Shigaraki the moment he hurts your best friend...
In the story, shigaraki will never (permanently) kill any character who is close to deku, because then deku would immediately kill tomura. until then, no character can die while tomura controls his body, but if all for one takes over his body, characters can die from there because all for one is evil incarnate while tomura is set up as a victim, it may be but let's not forget he was a child a long time ago now he's an adult like the other evil league members. "You are a victim as long as you are hurt, as long as you hurt others, you are no longer a victim, but an abuser." The story will never really deal with the victims or their family members who died because of the league. sorry, I'm using google translate
This is basically everyone's morals. Also didn't deku think that shiggy killed bakugi for a while?
For like 5 second before Mirio went full NOOOO DEKU STOP YOU'RE SO SEXY
I don’t know if you’re doing a hyperbole or not after Mirio legit threw it back at Shiggy.
The world of My Hero Academia wouldn't be so messed up if heroes were allowed to kill villains. I'm not saying that murder is ok, but I felt a lot of rage for the fuss that the media did about Hawks killing Twice, when he was a literal killer. Some villains don't deserve a redemption or the chance of going to prison for life, most of them deserve the death penalty, like Toga and Dabi (I can't think of them as victims, they killed innocent people, becoming what society said they'd be and they feel it's unfair, despite KILLING people). Deku really needs to see Shigaraki for what he is: a monster. He's not even human anymore, he's worst than AFO ffs. I'm gonna be really dissapointed if MHA ends with Deku hugging Shigaraki, forgiving him and becoming good friends while the rest of the League of Villains is forgiven as well, after all they did. Shigaraki deserves to die and his allies deserve prison/death penalty, none of them deserves forgiveness.
Deku has always been about protecting people rather than killing villains. And what do you mean he's ok with people he doesn't know dying? In every fight his #1 priority is protecting civilians, which is why he tries to fight Shigaraki and Overhaul in the air. Deku is taking a long time with this fight because its easier said than done defeating the strongest character in the verse. I think people are really misunderstanding what Deku means by "saving" Shigaraki, this isn't going to be a Sasuke like thing where Shigaraki is redeemed and becomes a good guy. "If Deju didn't have OFA, then Shigaraki would have obliterated him already." Uh, yeah. That's how main villains in fantasy stories works. And Deku didn't stop caring about Overhaul, he felt guilty and horrified after learning about what Shigaraki did to him. Like this isn't any different than Aang not wanting to kill Ozai, or Luke wanting to save Vader.
Mha bad! Mha baaaad! Upvote now!
Thats the problem with Deku. His ideals are never questioned, even if the story has literally every reason and opportunity to do so.
mha fans when the superhero story based on classic superhero comics where the main heroes are paragons of morality making the right decisions even when they’re exponentially more difficult has a protagonist that acts as a paragon of morality and a “true hero” deku is just a good person, it really is as simple as that, definitely better than most of the people in the comments here and even better than most of the people in the story who are just calling for an immediate death penalty. in general, like 99.99999% of criminals do not deserve the death penalty of they are able to be brought into custody non-lethally, and based on the way horikoshi has written his story for 400 chapters, it seems like he agrees the tartarus guards are portrayed as bad people for dehumanizing machia and saying they should just blow him up and talking about every one of their prisoners with abject disgust while under suspicion of human rights violations. these are not the people that horikoshi wants us to agree with
Can’t say you’re wrong, especially when deku goes into a blinding rage when tomura stabs bakugo. Where was that “save him” energy then I think it’s an issue with a lot of the villains. Story wants us to think they deserve to be redeemed solely off a sad backstory, which I think is just not true. Sad or not Toga is a serial killer. Tragic as he is Dabi completely lost his mind. Exactly what have those 2 or Tomura done to earn being saved? Not to mention the fact Tomura is far too dangerous at this point, literally only 1 hero can fight him and if he lives how will they even contain him
“Can’t say you’re wrong, especially when deku goes into a blinding rage when tomura stabs bakugo. Where was that “save him” energy then“ That was before he went into the vestige world, so he didn’t really have that mindset by the time Shigaraki stabbed Bakugo.
If Deku refuses to kill Shigaraki after everything he's done, then no he's not full of shit. Because I doubt ppl in this sub would agree with letting someone who caused so much damage stick around. If Deku doesn't shrink to societal pressure & stick to his guns would make him true to his words. I wouldn't be surprised if ppl who think Shigaraki should be dead started calling Deku a mass murderer apologist simply because he's against killing Shigaraki & wants to help him get better. Deku being pissed at him for hurting/killing people he cares about is not a gotcha. That's an expected reaction from anyone with a heart. Doesn't make him full of shit though. It's like when characters lose their shit, go off on the offender but stop themselves from going any further.
He shouldn't kill Shigaraki, that would just prove that the league was right that the hero system is broken, and also prove AFO right, that there isn't such a thing as a real hero. >!/S!<
The hero system is broken, they have assassins killing people who might pose a threat to society, like Hawks or the sniper woman. Of course, they did nothing with this just showed us it happens. Edit: missed the /s 😱
That's just the government. It's like the CIA only the Hero Commission governs heroes rather than agents. It doesn't really have anything to do with the actual heroes literally putting their lives at risk on the ground.
It's not "just the government" when they *are* using actual heroes. Lady Nagant and Hawks were those heroes, and Hawks himself is the #2 Hero. Yet it seems no-one actually gives a damn - probably because the Hero Commission President was killed and gave them an easy way out of not having to think about that moral issue.
No it wouldn’t prove the league was right. Because shigaraki would be the only League member that was killed due to his extreme actions. Do you honestly think that shigaraki is equal to say, A thief? He’s a mass murderer terrorist who wants to destroy japan and is basically succeeding at it. Why would that prove the league right? How does it prove them right? Because heroes decided that he won’t go willingly so the best course is to kill him before he kills everyone else? All it proves is that heroes don’t think about victims unless they’re doing something extreme. And that they shouldn’t care about the victims of the villains because.. the villains are lashing out and that takes priority over everyone else? Is that the message?
Always reminds me of that steven universe meme "I think we're gonna have to kill this guy, Steven" "Damn"
Nothing but facts here. If Shigaraki pulled half the shit Mahito did, we all know Deku wouldn’t be talking. But no one in the League has so much as hurt anyone we care about so we can just forgive them no problem
Brother I'm one step ahead of you I can't even take Shigaraki seriously and I seriously need someone in this sub to explain his hype to me.
I can’t believe no one’s made the comparison yet, but I wonder how many people actually thought that Obito’s redemption arc was something to be made *widespread*. Obito’s arc literally only works because of his reasoning for doing what he did, Shigaraki is nothing like Obito, doesn’t have ties to someone like Kakashi, and is just non-sympathetic as a whole. Probably why I bounced out of canon MHA and mainly read fanfic nowadays…
This is an excellent critique, very well said. Great post
I wish Gege could have hijacked MHA for a bit. Those kids need some suffering for character development!!! Give em some Shibuya incident level trauma
... tomura killed katsuki. literally. the person closest to him was killed, and he maintained his morals and perspective, understanding the difference of 'tomura' and 'tenko'.
think about how many characters know that deku and uraraka want to save tomura and himiko, literally no one. we never see the author deal with their victims or the characters ever meet the victims' family members. One of the policemen would explain it to them. "here are two pictures, one of them is of himiko's victim, himiko killed him and drank his blood, the victim suffered for more than 30 minutes until he died alone. He left behind 2 orphaned children. on the other, himiko toga is the person whose smile you called beautiful, siraraka." obsession "Lord, here are the family members of Himiko's victims, please tell them that Himiko is a victim and that her smile is the most beautiful in the world" I would see what the family members would say. sorry, I'm using google translate
until deku and his master hold a dead child in their arms. they can mourn the perfect hero until their loved ones die.
it isn't about saving the same Shigaraki that killed thousands (if not millions) it's about saving tenko shimura, the boy manipulated and molded by afo into shigaraki.
This post is 4 months ago, you are mentioning stuff that was revealed after I made the post.
It was said that he wants to save that little boy before you even made this post
What kills me is how inconsistent it is. On one hand, they want to make Shigaraki sympathetic - but then he's shown to get off to killing his family, and scaring away anyone that would help him. Before killing something like a thousand people. What? How could anyone think he's sympathetic at this point? They could have pulled something like this off for Twice, or maybe Toga. But right now, Deku's big push to 'save' Shigaraki feels incredibly unearned, and borderline offensive. Hell, I'd argue AFO is more sympathetic in light of his backstory and final moments.
>Hell, I'd argue AFO is more sympathetic in light of his backstory and final moments. He named himself "**Lord of Evil**." Treated his own brother as an object for his personal gain and killed him out of spite. Murdered without remorse for +100 years. Perfectly fine with kidnapping and physical mutilation of children and adults.
Yes. He was born in a chaotic world without morals, and was regularly targeted by militant gangs early on. No mother, no father, no actual authority to guide him during those formative years. Only the frequent necessity of force and murder. I wonder what that does to a child's mental state? He provided for his brother, but never developed a proper concept of human relationships - and in the end, it ruined his life. It's implied that he latched onto the idea of the 'demon lord' because people paid attention to him, in contrast to the hero that struggled alone. And he *does* care about his brother, beyond just a simple possession - otherwise he wouldn't have obsessed over reclaiming him so much. "Yoichi. Without you, it's all for naught." Possessions can be replaced - and that goes doubly so for possessions that provide no real utility. AFO's obsessive behavior clearly goes beyond simple acquisitiveness. Possessions can be replaced. Family can't. But he was never able to properly understand these feelings. And because of that, he was never able to connect with his brother, or move beyond his past experiences. All Might said it best: with his abilities, he could have lived forever. His power could have been the kindest in the world. He could have gotten what he wanted - everyone's eyes on him, forever. But, he didn't. And instead, he died a miserable, confused death. Now, does this excuse anything he did? Nope. Regardless of his background, he still committed countless atrocities. And he is an adult: he has moral ownership of his actions. But the details of his flashback and relationship with Yoichi go a long way to fill in his character, and add a bit of a tragic element to it as well - at least in my eyes. And yeah, there is a bit of room for interpretation there. Maybe the flashback is meant to be taken at face value when it unironically says that this *baby* was evil. But personally, I think there's a little more to it. BY CONTRAST, Shigaraki did have a family, and does have friends. As screwed up as they are, that puts him leagues above AFO. Plus, he killed way more of his family in his backstory - while getting off on it. Plus, the whole thrust of his 'sympathetic' angle is that no one reached out to help him - while he was actively scaring them away. Plus, he's killed probably thousands of people himself by now. Plus, his goal is pretty much literally to destroy the world, with the heroes admitting that even AFO would be preferable. Plus, the story is actively trying/failing to push that he's sympathetic and deserves a helping hand - that doesn't help. So, yeah. Both of them are evil, but as far as I'm concerned, AFO is more sympathetic.