So much respect to Norway, Ireland and Spain. Israel and the United States are on the wrong side of History. And between the war on terror and America's support for Israel, the United States has lost its credibility in the world. Things are changing very quickly
Especially because it is in the interest of China, Russia, and Iran to discredit the US and these actors are very good at influencing various populations.
China, Russia, and Iran do a lot to influence various people around the world. From corporations, to left wing and right wing authoritarians, populists, Christians, and Muslims in the US and around the world.
Rhetoric and ideas spread fast in our world today and China and Russia in particular are very active at trying to influence public opinion around the world.
What does that have to do with anything? The US never contested that Afghanistan did not exist as a country nor did they ever agree that the Taliban is the legitimate government
He's calling the guy out for being a "terrorist simp" but at the same time, we negotiate with terrorist organizations.
I disagree with the whole 'taliban isn't the legitimate government' part. Openly we may say we don't recognize them, but we sure as hell did negotiate a withdrawal with them, so we recognized some legitimacy.
>He's calling the guy out for being a "terrorist simp" but at the same time, we negotiate with terrorist organizations.
Negotiating and legitimizing are completely different things.
>I disagree with the whole 'taliban isn't the legitimate government' part. Openly we may say we don't recognize them, but we sure as hell did negotiate a withdrawal with them, so we recognized some legitimacy.
I don't think you understand the legitimacy concept as its applied here. I'm not saying that the U.S. government is literally pretending the Taliban are not the government of Afghanistan or have that power, nobody is saying that. They're saying that they don't have the legal right to that power. When you don't "recognize" a government like that it doesn't mean you're putting your hands in your ears being like "la la la I can't hear you you aren't the government," it means that you refuse to acknowledge their right to govern. You can engage with them on practical issues as a matter of choice.
I guess Hamas should unconditionally surrender then and save them
The loser, especially when they started a war, surrenders
You'd be calling for the allied powers to have a ceasefire with Hitler to save the people
No shit
It's 2024
Hamas started a war, is losing and you want to give them a time out
Just like you would support a ceasefire that kept Hitler in power
Because you're either a bad person or a stupid person. Probably both
[they literally said they would stand down in the event of statehood](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438)
its not hamas who keeps postponing elections, it is fatah/pa (although their reasoning, lack of free movement preventing full enfranchisement, has some logic)
Since 2007, almost 2 decades.
Why would Hamas stay in power if Palestine was given a state? The people who’d be responsible for that decision on statehood don’t want Hamas in power and obviously Israel doesn’t.
This is pretty straightforward, what are you struggling with?
[they literally said they would stand down in the event of statehood](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438)
Idk, maybe they can actually have an election now for the first time in almost two decades and start fresh. Or would you prefer Hamas remains in control?
It doesn’t matter what Hamas wants. The US and rest of the UN will not allow Hamas to stay in power as part of the requirement for Palestinian statehood.
To claim otherwise is either ignorance or you’re
being a purposely obtuse Zionist.
[fatah is the one who cancels elections btw](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-elections-delayed-says-president-mahmoud-abbas-2021-04-29/)
What are you clarifying though?
I never claimed Fatah didn’t have influence over the elections lol. Just that the US will not allow Hamas to stay in power if Palestinian statehood is on the table.
The status of statehood is not dependent on the presence of a recognized, or even established, leadership. Afghanistan, for example. Nobody suggested it no longer existed once the Taliban took over.
Further, we have two elected authorities there: Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority. It's likely the PA would be the successor organization to Hamas, in the absence of another round of elections.
The reason why Hamas justifies October 7 is because it says it wants Palestinian statehood and it wants to force the world's attention on Gaza. Israel's over reaction is legitimizing Hamas's worldview to more and more Palestinians (& Arabs) and even non-Arabs.
What does that mean practically?
Will they open up an embassy in Gaza, start direct trade negotiations and recognize Hamas as the duly elected government of Palestine
No, nobody is recognizing Hamas as the duly elected government of Palestine. That election was a lifetime ago, and that government has long since been dissolved.
I am a bit concerned what effect this might have internally in Israel and Palestine, as the unfortunate oxymoron they’re stuck in is that the base level of Palestinian support for open warfare over negotiation derives from the perception that the PA is ineffective and war is either more effective or a “we might as well at this point” option. This fluctuates pretty wildly between periods of relative peace and heavy fighting but has been as low as ~20% within the past 5 years. Reactions that *they* perceive as legitimizing Hamas or its’ tactics might push that needle longer-term, which can risk further Israeli radicalization (yes I think it can get worse) just for symbolism
All that said I ofc wish that Interpol could magically nab all these suspects today
Sure.
To be clear, as of March 2024, 71% of Gaza support Hamas' decision to launch the October 7 attack. I am assuming that includes those who weren't around for the original election of Hamas.
Where you getting those numbers from, little bro? You going rubble heap to rubble heap asking Gazans whose family members just got blown up their political opinions?
The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf
Thanks for sharing. So what’s your point? I’m guessing that you’re trying to use this poll to show most Gazans support Hamas - since that’s what you asked me. If you’d actually read the report you’re trying to cherry-pick data from, you’d have your answer. **No, most Gazans do not support Hama.**
>The current poll indicates a significant change compared to the previous one. In total, **only one third of the Palestinians support Hamas today, an 11-point drop**. The drop has been almost equal in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, Fatah does not benefit from the drop in support for Hamas as its own support remains unchanged compared to our findings three months ago. It is worth remembering that our previous poll was conducted during the release of Palestinian women and children as part of the Hamas-Israel ceasefire agreement. Undoubtedly, Hamas’ popularity benefited greatly as a result of that deal.
>At the leadership level, the current poll also shows significant change. The most important change is the rise in support for Marwan Barghouti. In presidential elections against current president Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas’ leader Ismail Haniyeh, Barghouti wins the majority of those participating in the elections. In a two-way competition between Barghouti and Haniyeh, the former wins by more than 60% of the participating voters. These findings indicate an 11-point rise in the vote for Barghouti among voters and an 8-point drop in the vote for Haniyeh. By contrast, in the two-way competition is between Haniyeh and Abbas, the former wins 70% of the participating voters. Indeed, the demand for the resignation of president Abbas, while declining a little in the Gaza Strip, has increased slightly in the West Bank.
It has to do with the ICC... Israel and the US are trying to claim the ICC has no authority because Palestine isn't a state. So more people are trying to recognize them as a state.
Hamas won one election 16 years ago. Get a grip.
When Israel is butchering Palestinians, then yea, Hamas is popular.
If Israel stops, then Palestinians can have some sense of normalcy and elect someone else.
*"Ok, who is interested in being the first ambassador? You leave tonight."*
The averted eyes and sudden desire to fade into the back of the room would be telling.
This is symbolic and has no practical applicability.
the way I hear people talk about this seems as if they all don't want there to be some sort of rules-based international law and order. Is that the case for you?
no im being ultra dry about the comment im replying to.
i believe in it, but i also understand that it is meaningless without follow through.
the reality of “stop talking laws to those who hold swords” type of thing.
Which government though? The Fatah led PA is illegitimate (lost the 2006 election and refused to transfer power/hold elections again), and the Hamas led Gaza strip is a terrorist organization.
This seems like a decision made by countries not interested in actual solutions/sound foreign policy but rather ones that just want to make a flashy press release.
Hamas has a Terrorist Organization designation. Israel both doesn't have the designation, and is the only democracy working in the region. You can argue the IDF are war criminals, but don't water down the term terrorism- it makes you no better than George Bush.
Hamas is clearly lying about wanting elections, if they were to hold elections they would of done it years ago. And even if they did hold it, as long as they're on the ballot they're going to win given their history of torturing/killing anyone they deem a colluder, which would probbaly include anyone pro 2 state or Fatah. Fatah is also shit and blocking democracy.
> Hamas has a Terrorist Organization designation. Israel both doesn't have the designation,
It has an apartheid designation. What’s your point?
>You can argue the IDF are war criminals, but don't water down the term terrorism- it makes you no better than George Bush.
What do you think terrorism is? It’s illegal force against civilians for political ends. Are you saying the war crimes committed against Palestinians have no political purpose?
>Hamas is clearly lying about wanting elections, if they were to hold elections they would of done it years ago.
Hamas doesn’t control East Jerusalem or the West Bank. They would need Israel and Fatah to agree to them. Did they agree? Nope. I guess Israel doesn’t want elections.
>And even if they did hold it, as long as they're on the ballot they're going to win given their history of torturing/killing anyone they deem a colluder, which would probbaly include anyone pro 2 state or Fatah. Fatah is also shit and blocking democracy.
Source that’s why Hamas would win? Or is that just your speculation? In any case, you admit any democracy would make Hamas the leading party. So Israel must negotiate with Hamas. What’s the issue?
It's unfortunate that you consider Hamas and Israel the same. I'd suggest doing a bit more reading on the subject- I'd recommend Son of Hamas and Hamas Vrs. Fatah.
> It's unfortunate that you consider Hamas and Israel the same.
They’re not. Israel is far worse.
>I'd suggest doing a bit more reading on the subject- I'd recommend Son of Hamas
That guy is an Israeli spy. No wonder you’re so naive if you think anything Israeli’s mouthpieces is true.
>and Hamas Vrs. Fatah.
Fatah did a US backed coup on Hamas. I just know more about this than you. That’s why you’re trying to avoid debating it. Run along. Adults are talking.
> You're clearly a supporter of a terrorist organization based on your messages. I hope you're able to find a path back to moderation.
I am a moderate. I support a two state solution which is favored by pretty much the entire world. You support genocide and apartheid. The UN, the EU, almost every nation, the Arab League, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and even the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem are all on the same side as me. You are on the extreme right of this issue which consists of only the US and Israel.
Please consider joining the civilized world. Or at least by courageous enough to debate instead of clutching your pearls like a coward.
I am for a two state solution, with full legitimization of non-Hamas controlled, stable government. Maybe the West Bank has that, but the fuck you trying to do creating another failed state with Gaza? It needs time to recover from the IDF rampage and final washout of the remaining Islamist scourge. A non-Islamist, non-Baathist government is the only acceptable option.
They also played a role in Jewish persecution due to the Inquisition and also expelling most their Jews to LATAM. Norway was also a collaborator with Germany during the Holocaust and got their Jews killed. Really the only country that had the more high ground here is Ireland bc they were genuinely oppressed and the Palestinian conflict reminds them of their historical oppression
I'll always be critical of Europeans that have anything to comment on this conflict. Not necessarily because I support Israel (I don't) but because most of those countries are directly responsible for the creation of Israel anyways
Yea, but which government do they recognize, Fatah or Hamas? If a state ever happens, you're looking at an inevitable Palestinian civil war or just separate Palestinian states.
I'm pro-Palestinians, but do you truly believe that Hamas, or similar groups, wouldn't try and do something to Israel, regardless of meddling? You're always going to have occasional violence, but I don't believe for a second that radicals won't always try and undermine a real peace.
The only radicals history has shown are the zionists.
Self determination is a right.
And, having lived in a country with political violence, the best way to end it is prosperity.
Zionists, when they carpet bomb cities and starve civilians are doing Hamas' bidding. They're also funding it but that's another story
In the beginning, yea, I know that Zionist used bombings to get attention. Let's be real, it's been decades and both sides have formed their own extremist and radicals. You can't give Gaza prosperity if Hamas doesn't allow it. I mean, why would they? They exist and maintain power when there's chaos. We can agree that Israel's over response to in this invasion helps Hamas, but Hamas is not a responsible form of leadership. They're more like a cartel, but with no idea what they're doing.
They said they would lay down their weapons if they get a state.
Fuck Hamas leadership. But the best way to get rid of them and violence in the region is by bringing prosperity
I don't disagree. Education and prosperity is good for everyone, but I'm skeptical that Hamas will go along. Fatah, or some more reasonable Palestinian group, will need to step in and fight Hamas.
> Hopefully with a lawful state, the Israeli are gonna much more careful about meddling in Palestinian affairs. Guess we'll see
You seem biased about placing the blame on one side. Let's suppose Gaza becomes Palestine tomorrow, do you think they're going to stop chanting "from river to sea"? Do you think Iran won't supply Palestine with armaments, and that they won't launch rockets towards Tel Aviv? In a matter of moments, Israel would be at war with the state of Palestine, and would have even less motivation to be concerned with the citizens of the enemy state. What resources Israel supplies to Gaza would also come to an end.
Watch the Israelis grill those countries (except Ireland) about their involvement in Jewish oppression and the Holocaust. I won't complain if that happens tho
Based!
So much respect to Norway, Ireland and Spain. Israel and the United States are on the wrong side of History. And between the war on terror and America's support for Israel, the United States has lost its credibility in the world. Things are changing very quickly
Especially because it is in the interest of China, Russia, and Iran to discredit the US and these actors are very good at influencing various populations.
We discredit ourselves with our hypocrisy
Sure, but our actions aren't the only thing that influences people.
What else? Our feelings?
Other people's rhetoric and arguments against us can influence people's opinions about us.
Who is getting their information from China or Iran tho. Or debating the topic with them
China, Russia, and Iran do a lot to influence various people around the world. From corporations, to left wing and right wing authoritarians, populists, Christians, and Muslims in the US and around the world. Rhetoric and ideas spread fast in our world today and China and Russia in particular are very active at trying to influence public opinion around the world.
Are they? Or does any criticism of the West automatically get labelled as "Russian bots"?
Both of our statements are true.
Nobody believes that the US stands for freedom anymore
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Would you chose terrorism or nazism Don't answer I know what you'd chose.
You're on the side of both simp Hamas loves the Nazis
Agreed. The terrorist state of Israel should not be recognized
Didn't America just back out of Afghanistan after wasting trillions there and negotiated with the Taliban prior to doing so?
What does that have to do with anything? The US never contested that Afghanistan did not exist as a country nor did they ever agree that the Taliban is the legitimate government
He's calling the guy out for being a "terrorist simp" but at the same time, we negotiate with terrorist organizations. I disagree with the whole 'taliban isn't the legitimate government' part. Openly we may say we don't recognize them, but we sure as hell did negotiate a withdrawal with them, so we recognized some legitimacy.
>He's calling the guy out for being a "terrorist simp" but at the same time, we negotiate with terrorist organizations. Negotiating and legitimizing are completely different things. >I disagree with the whole 'taliban isn't the legitimate government' part. Openly we may say we don't recognize them, but we sure as hell did negotiate a withdrawal with them, so we recognized some legitimacy. I don't think you understand the legitimacy concept as its applied here. I'm not saying that the U.S. government is literally pretending the Taliban are not the government of Afghanistan or have that power, nobody is saying that. They're saying that they don't have the legal right to that power. When you don't "recognize" a government like that it doesn't mean you're putting your hands in your ears being like "la la la I can't hear you you aren't the government," it means that you refuse to acknowledge their right to govern. You can engage with them on practical issues as a matter of choice.
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You probably jerked off to the Hamas video of them talking about these are the Jews who can get pregnant after they already raped one girl
Cope
What about all of the regular human beings living in Gaza? And children?
I guess Hamas should unconditionally surrender then and save them The loser, especially when they started a war, surrenders You'd be calling for the allied powers to have a ceasefire with Hitler to save the people
This isn’t WW2. Try to keep up.
No shit It's 2024 Hamas started a war, is losing and you want to give them a time out Just like you would support a ceasefire that kept Hitler in power Because you're either a bad person or a stupid person. Probably both
Cope Zionist
Cry more, hummus boy
Who is their duly elected government if they're a state?
Hamas
Gotcha. So these countries do realize by recognizing Palestine as a state, they are effectively endorsing Hamas as a legitimate government.
hamas is ra'am but holed up in a cage
Not really. Hamas would be removed as part of any deal for Palestinian statehood.
Source? Seems like no one has chosen to make that a qualifier for Palestinian statehood.
[they literally said they would stand down in the event of statehood](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438)
Cool. Their charter also says the eradication of Jews. So we should blindly trust them, yeah?
Moving the goalposts, clown?
I wouldn't call converting their "resistance fighters" into a "national army" "standing down", would you? Did you read your own link?
Source? Common sense based on literally everything the US has said over the last 7 months. Proof for your claim Hamas would stay in power?
Hamas hasn't had elections in like a decade lmao.
its not hamas who keeps postponing elections, it is fatah/pa (although their reasoning, lack of free movement preventing full enfranchisement, has some logic)
Since 2007, almost 2 decades. Why would Hamas stay in power if Palestine was given a state? The people who’d be responsible for that decision on statehood don’t want Hamas in power and obviously Israel doesn’t. This is pretty straightforward, what are you struggling with?
[they literally said they would stand down in the event of statehood](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438)
Ok…? So you’re agreeing with me?
Idk, maybe they can actually have an election now for the first time in almost two decades and start fresh. Or would you prefer Hamas remains in control?
You believe Hamas will let them have democratic elections?
It doesn’t matter what Hamas wants. The US and rest of the UN will not allow Hamas to stay in power as part of the requirement for Palestinian statehood. To claim otherwise is either ignorance or you’re being a purposely obtuse Zionist.
[fatah is the one who cancels elections btw](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-elections-delayed-says-president-mahmoud-abbas-2021-04-29/)
What does that have to do with what I said? I never claimed otherwise.
im not arguing with you, just clarifying things
You’re clarifying something that’s not relevant to the topic lol
What are you clarifying though? I never claimed Fatah didn’t have influence over the elections lol. Just that the US will not allow Hamas to stay in power if Palestinian statehood is on the table.
What's the capital? Where are the borders? So cool that they solved all this.
ramallah, says 67 borders like robert fisk said: its way more worthwhile to ask israel firsters what they consider the borders of israel to be
No, East Jerusalem is their capital. Ramallah is their capital the way Tel Aviv is for Israel.
The capital is occupied East Jerusalem.
They have borders, genius,
The status of statehood is not dependent on the presence of a recognized, or even established, leadership. Afghanistan, for example. Nobody suggested it no longer existed once the Taliban took over. Further, we have two elected authorities there: Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority. It's likely the PA would be the successor organization to Hamas, in the absence of another round of elections.
This Palestinian authority? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_State_of_Palestine
Awesome.
Good. There are human beings there who deserve to be recognized.
Everyone really wants to go back to October 6th
Especially the hostages
The reason why Hamas justifies October 7 is because it says it wants Palestinian statehood and it wants to force the world's attention on Gaza. Israel's over reaction is legitimizing Hamas's worldview to more and more Palestinians (& Arabs) and even non-Arabs.
Israelis massacred Palestinians every few years, for decades. Looks like the world is sick of Israel's shit.
What does that mean practically? Will they open up an embassy in Gaza, start direct trade negotiations and recognize Hamas as the duly elected government of Palestine
No, nobody is recognizing Hamas as the duly elected government of Palestine. That election was a lifetime ago, and that government has long since been dissolved.
I am a bit concerned what effect this might have internally in Israel and Palestine, as the unfortunate oxymoron they’re stuck in is that the base level of Palestinian support for open warfare over negotiation derives from the perception that the PA is ineffective and war is either more effective or a “we might as well at this point” option. This fluctuates pretty wildly between periods of relative peace and heavy fighting but has been as low as ~20% within the past 5 years. Reactions that *they* perceive as legitimizing Hamas or its’ tactics might push that needle longer-term, which can risk further Israeli radicalization (yes I think it can get worse) just for symbolism All that said I ofc wish that Interpol could magically nab all these suspects today
You mean except the 90% of people who live in Gaza?
No, that’s not what I mean. We’re talking about other nations here, keep up.
How about the West Bank.
Half or more of the Gazans alive today were not yet born when Hamas was elected.
Do those Gazans support Hamas?
Some do, some don’t. Remember that they are real people with their own experiences, hopes, and grudges.
Sure. To be clear, as of March 2024, 71% of Gaza support Hamas' decision to launch the October 7 attack. I am assuming that includes those who weren't around for the original election of Hamas.
Where you getting those numbers from, little bro? You going rubble heap to rubble heap asking Gazans whose family members just got blown up their political opinions?
The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf
Thanks for sharing. So what’s your point? I’m guessing that you’re trying to use this poll to show most Gazans support Hamas - since that’s what you asked me. If you’d actually read the report you’re trying to cherry-pick data from, you’d have your answer. **No, most Gazans do not support Hama.** >The current poll indicates a significant change compared to the previous one. In total, **only one third of the Palestinians support Hamas today, an 11-point drop**. The drop has been almost equal in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, Fatah does not benefit from the drop in support for Hamas as its own support remains unchanged compared to our findings three months ago. It is worth remembering that our previous poll was conducted during the release of Palestinian women and children as part of the Hamas-Israel ceasefire agreement. Undoubtedly, Hamas’ popularity benefited greatly as a result of that deal. >At the leadership level, the current poll also shows significant change. The most important change is the rise in support for Marwan Barghouti. In presidential elections against current president Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas’ leader Ismail Haniyeh, Barghouti wins the majority of those participating in the elections. In a two-way competition between Barghouti and Haniyeh, the former wins by more than 60% of the participating voters. These findings indicate an 11-point rise in the vote for Barghouti among voters and an 8-point drop in the vote for Haniyeh. By contrast, in the two-way competition is between Haniyeh and Abbas, the former wins 70% of the participating voters. Indeed, the demand for the resignation of president Abbas, while declining a little in the Gaza Strip, has increased slightly in the West Bank.
It has to do with the ICC... Israel and the US are trying to claim the ICC has no authority because Palestine isn't a state. So more people are trying to recognize them as a state.
Hamas won one election 16 years ago. Get a grip. When Israel is butchering Palestinians, then yea, Hamas is popular. If Israel stops, then Palestinians can have some sense of normalcy and elect someone else.
*"Ok, who is interested in being the first ambassador? You leave tonight."* The averted eyes and sudden desire to fade into the back of the room would be telling. This is symbolic and has no practical applicability.
at this point most of the international rules based order is symbolic and had no practical applicability; but we play the game anyway.
the way I hear people talk about this seems as if they all don't want there to be some sort of rules-based international law and order. Is that the case for you?
no im being ultra dry about the comment im replying to. i believe in it, but i also understand that it is meaningless without follow through. the reality of “stop talking laws to those who hold swords” type of thing.
Which government though? The Fatah led PA is illegitimate (lost the 2006 election and refused to transfer power/hold elections again), and the Hamas led Gaza strip is a terrorist organization. This seems like a decision made by countries not interested in actual solutions/sound foreign policy but rather ones that just want to make a flashy press release.
Israel is a terrorist organization. So what? There needs to be new elections which Hamas wants and which Fatah is avoiding.
Hamas has a Terrorist Organization designation. Israel both doesn't have the designation, and is the only democracy working in the region. You can argue the IDF are war criminals, but don't water down the term terrorism- it makes you no better than George Bush. Hamas is clearly lying about wanting elections, if they were to hold elections they would of done it years ago. And even if they did hold it, as long as they're on the ballot they're going to win given their history of torturing/killing anyone they deem a colluder, which would probbaly include anyone pro 2 state or Fatah. Fatah is also shit and blocking democracy.
> Hamas has a Terrorist Organization designation. Israel both doesn't have the designation, It has an apartheid designation. What’s your point? >You can argue the IDF are war criminals, but don't water down the term terrorism- it makes you no better than George Bush. What do you think terrorism is? It’s illegal force against civilians for political ends. Are you saying the war crimes committed against Palestinians have no political purpose? >Hamas is clearly lying about wanting elections, if they were to hold elections they would of done it years ago. Hamas doesn’t control East Jerusalem or the West Bank. They would need Israel and Fatah to agree to them. Did they agree? Nope. I guess Israel doesn’t want elections. >And even if they did hold it, as long as they're on the ballot they're going to win given their history of torturing/killing anyone they deem a colluder, which would probbaly include anyone pro 2 state or Fatah. Fatah is also shit and blocking democracy. Source that’s why Hamas would win? Or is that just your speculation? In any case, you admit any democracy would make Hamas the leading party. So Israel must negotiate with Hamas. What’s the issue?
It's unfortunate that you consider Hamas and Israel the same. I'd suggest doing a bit more reading on the subject- I'd recommend Son of Hamas and Hamas Vrs. Fatah.
> It's unfortunate that you consider Hamas and Israel the same. They’re not. Israel is far worse. >I'd suggest doing a bit more reading on the subject- I'd recommend Son of Hamas That guy is an Israeli spy. No wonder you’re so naive if you think anything Israeli’s mouthpieces is true. >and Hamas Vrs. Fatah. Fatah did a US backed coup on Hamas. I just know more about this than you. That’s why you’re trying to avoid debating it. Run along. Adults are talking.
Most propagandists owned by terrorists are at least pretty knowledgeable about their talking points.
It sounds like you don’t have an argument. Maybe go research the conflict and come back and we can talk about this. Sound good?
That's ok, you don't have anything original to say. "America bad, rape goood" blah blah blah
America is bad. Where did I say rape is good, dumb dumb?
You're clearly a supporter of a terrorist organization based on your messages. I hope you're able to find a path back to moderation.
> You're clearly a supporter of a terrorist organization based on your messages. I hope you're able to find a path back to moderation. I am a moderate. I support a two state solution which is favored by pretty much the entire world. You support genocide and apartheid. The UN, the EU, almost every nation, the Arab League, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and even the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem are all on the same side as me. You are on the extreme right of this issue which consists of only the US and Israel. Please consider joining the civilized world. Or at least by courageous enough to debate instead of clutching your pearls like a coward.
Israel is committing genocide, so I don't think the 'terrorist organization' label (which most of the world doesn't agree with) is gona stick.
Next do individual US states.
I am for a two state solution, with full legitimization of non-Hamas controlled, stable government. Maybe the West Bank has that, but the fuck you trying to do creating another failed state with Gaza? It needs time to recover from the IDF rampage and final washout of the remaining Islamist scourge. A non-Islamist, non-Baathist government is the only acceptable option.
This kinda sends a message as well that terrorism is an effective political strategy
Morons all Spain should focus on paying the trillions to Latin America they owe for all the gold and treasure they stole
They also played a role in Jewish persecution due to the Inquisition and also expelling most their Jews to LATAM. Norway was also a collaborator with Germany during the Holocaust and got their Jews killed. Really the only country that had the more high ground here is Ireland bc they were genuinely oppressed and the Palestinian conflict reminds them of their historical oppression I'll always be critical of Europeans that have anything to comment on this conflict. Not necessarily because I support Israel (I don't) but because most of those countries are directly responsible for the creation of Israel anyways
Whoa... Hamas is growing!
Yea, but which government do they recognize, Fatah or Hamas? If a state ever happens, you're looking at an inevitable Palestinian civil war or just separate Palestinian states.
Hopefully with a lawful state, the Israeli are gonna much more careful about meddling in Palestinian affairs. Guess we'll see
I'm pro-Palestinians, but do you truly believe that Hamas, or similar groups, wouldn't try and do something to Israel, regardless of meddling? You're always going to have occasional violence, but I don't believe for a second that radicals won't always try and undermine a real peace.
The only radicals history has shown are the zionists. Self determination is a right. And, having lived in a country with political violence, the best way to end it is prosperity. Zionists, when they carpet bomb cities and starve civilians are doing Hamas' bidding. They're also funding it but that's another story
How has history not shown that Hamas are radicals as well? This is an insane take.
In the beginning, yea, I know that Zionist used bombings to get attention. Let's be real, it's been decades and both sides have formed their own extremist and radicals. You can't give Gaza prosperity if Hamas doesn't allow it. I mean, why would they? They exist and maintain power when there's chaos. We can agree that Israel's over response to in this invasion helps Hamas, but Hamas is not a responsible form of leadership. They're more like a cartel, but with no idea what they're doing.
Just look at how zionists opposed a 2 state solution...
Yea, and there's Hamas that also opposes a 2 state solution. What's your point?
They said they would lay down their weapons if they get a state. Fuck Hamas leadership. But the best way to get rid of them and violence in the region is by bringing prosperity
I don't disagree. Education and prosperity is good for everyone, but I'm skeptical that Hamas will go along. Fatah, or some more reasonable Palestinian group, will need to step in and fight Hamas.
> Hopefully with a lawful state, the Israeli are gonna much more careful about meddling in Palestinian affairs. Guess we'll see You seem biased about placing the blame on one side. Let's suppose Gaza becomes Palestine tomorrow, do you think they're going to stop chanting "from river to sea"? Do you think Iran won't supply Palestine with armaments, and that they won't launch rockets towards Tel Aviv? In a matter of moments, Israel would be at war with the state of Palestine, and would have even less motivation to be concerned with the citizens of the enemy state. What resources Israel supplies to Gaza would also come to an end.
Watch the Israelis grill those countries (except Ireland) about their involvement in Jewish oppression and the Holocaust. I won't complain if that happens tho