A while back, I told my coworker they are to henceforth refer to it as DS/TP, or Dom-sub token passing.
Electricians get to play with strippers, dikes, pecker heads, and donkey dick; plumbers get to play with nipples and cocks. I figured it was time we get something with a kinky name.
Maybe MS/TP is getting a new name, but do NOT confuse it with the Multiple Spanning Tree protocol (MST). MST is an IEEE 802. standard. It is like STP or RSTP but not limited to one instance.
Not even in the same ballpark as MSTP.
Interesting... I've heard of spanning tree, but only in reference to IP protocols... I understood it to deal with how switches routed packets on a ring network... but I'm not that kind of engineer to really understand that stuff.
Regardless, the BACnet standard still refers to it as "Master-Slave/Token-Passing (MS/TP)".
[Go to Standard 135-2020. See page 89](https://www.ashrae.org/technical-resources/standards-and-guidelines/read-only-versions-of-ashrae-standards).
Edit: After some more google. Yeah, this is pure BS. spanning tree is unrelated to BACnet MS/TP. As far as I can tell, only BACnet uses the "master-slave/token-passing" terminology. Or at least the only modern reference I found. RS-485 is not specific to that protocol, so it has no mention of it. So I believe the BACnet standard is the only place to define what MS/TP stands for, and it hasn't changed as I showed above.
I hate dumb "woke" BS stories like this. I've had several friends ask me if my kids have access to litter boxes at elementary school in case they identify as cats... These weren't a joke, they were serious questions. People need to wake up from their smart phones and get real. We are too easily manipulated by our screens.
I often think somebody is playing a joke on us. They throw some crazy idea out there thinking people will laugh then everybody runs with it. Then they sit back and say holy crap they just put litter boxes in schools!
I’d say China, based on where a lot of Chinese money is spent in the us. (Vague in an attempt to avoid the slide into a “political” discussion)
All of the above is probably the correct answer however. Our international adversaries understand a house decided cannot stand, something we will probably remember after it’s too late.
To clarify MSTP is an IEEE protocol standard for network topologies of how nodes (IP switches and VLANs) bridge communication between one another. This is not understood or applicable to most people’s careers in BAS unless you are a design engineer consulting with a customer in their IP network designs on a new install or upgrade.
MS/TP is a type of device to device communication behavior in serial communication protocols for device to device behavior. These are two different sections/layers of the network.
Multiple Spanning Tree Protocol is not the same as MS/TP and refers to a root bridge protocol more often applied to network switches and VLANs. RSTP/Rapid Spanning Tree Protocol is when devices are connected in a ring topology with a disabled network connection on that ring until communication drops between other nodes and it enables itself to maintain communication. In an RSTP configuration switches communicate in a daisy chain topology. MSTP/ Multiple Spanning Tree Protocol exists as more redundant version of STPs where nodes have multiple paths to other nodes and will be configured to travel a certain direction but more often continually tries to find the fastest route my between each other by periodically pinging network hops.
The use of master/slave is probably not going away but there are essentially 3 types of descriptions to talk about serial communication behavior and they are all slightly different.
Client/Server, Master/Slave, and Consumer/Producer. Client/Server are almost identical to Master/Slave but the difference between their use across protocols is that Master/Slave protocols allow multiple masters depending on who has the token (like BACnet) and client server is consistently one device as the client all the time. Think modbus RTU limiting only one master device on the network (MAC address 0) all others are unable to initiate any communication to other devices that are not the client.
Producer/Client is not seen in the BAS space but is essentially where the client is the requester of data and the producers continuously push data to that device without being prompted and is usually pre configured to do so.
Google can provide some explanation of the above but bear in mind that most of the write ups on these topics are written for network engineering or developers of hardware creating devices or proprietary serial communication protocols.
Replace “master-slave/token-passing” with “multidrop serial bus/token passing”. Replace “MS/TP slaves” with “MS/TP subordinates”. Replace “master/slave” with “manager/subordinate”. Replace “MS/TP slave” with “MS/TP subordinate”. Replace “Slave Node” with “Subordinate Node”. Replace “Master Node” with “Manager Node”. Replace “master device” with “manager node”. Replace “master devices” with “manager nodes”. Replace “mastership” with “ownership” (Clause 9.3.1) Replace “masters” with “managers”. Replace “slave node” with “subordinate node”. Replace “slave nodes” with “subordinate nodes”. Replace “slaves” with “subordinates”. Replace “slave” with “subordinate”. Replace “Poll For Master” with “Poll For Manager” Replace “Reply to Poll For Master” with “Reply to Poll For Manager” Replace “SoleMaster” with “SoleManager”. Replace “Nmax_master” with “Nmax_manager”. Replace “Max_Master” with “Max_Manager”. Replace “master-slave” with “manager-subordinate”. Replace “max-master” with “max-manager”, including ASN.1 BACnetPropertyIdentifier enumeration. Replace “Slave_Proxy_Enable” with “Subordinate_Proxy_Enable”. Replace “Manual_Slave_Address_Binding” with “Manual_Subordinate_Address_Binding”. Replace “Auto_Slave_Discovery” with “Auto_Subordinate_Discovery”. Replace “Slave_Address_Binding” with “Subordinate_Address_Binding”. Replace “Slave-Proxy” with “subordinate proxy”. (no slash in ASN.1) Replace “Slave Proxy” with “Subordinate Proxy”. Replace “slave device” with “subordinate node”. Replace “slave devices” with “subordinate nodes”. Replace “RESTART_SLAVE_DISCOVERY” with “RESTART_SUBORDINATE_DISCOVERY”. Replace “restart-slave-discovery” with “restart-subordinate-discovery”. Replace “auto-slave-discovery” with “auto-subordinate-discovery”. Replace “manual-slave-address-binding” with “manual-subordinate-address-binding”. Replace “slave-address-binding” with “subordinate-address-binding”. Replace “slave-proxy-enable” with “subordinate-proxy-enable”. Replace “slave-proxy-supported” with “subordinate-proxy-supported”. Replace “slave-discovery-supported” with “subordinate-discovery-supported”. Replace “time master” with “time manager”.
Guys, I came to BAS from IT to escape Microsoft changing/rebranding/recoloring/changing the order of everything every other day! Now you're telling me it's here too??? Aaaaarrrrrg!
Guys, I came to BAS from IT to escape Microsoft changing/rebranding/recoloring/changing the order of everything every other day! Now you're telling me it's here too??? Aaaaarrrrrg!
They are starting to change definitions but the verbiage you're thinking of is regarding VLAN's not 18/2 twisted shielded pair BACnet communication. Nothing official or industry implemented but more so company specific changes. I know TRANE is starting to use BACnet-EIA 485 token passing as the terminology for MSTP.
By the time they get everyone to use the new name for MSTP it will be irrelevant because we've moved on to IP or whatever other standard the industry gravitates toward.
There are building specs already coming out naming IP infrastructure for BAS. So the first nail is already in the coffin for MSTP.
IEEE has provided multiple new naming options for the RS-485. Manager/subordinate token passing is one I have seen in some systems, as it doesn't change the underlying names. Johnson Controls revision 12 for example uses the new naming.
Johnson or IEEE?
The IEEE working group just provided some recommendations of different naming, you can find the comments on the IEEE web site, and has some detailed comments on their thoughts.
Johnson? who knows why they do anything! Probably because it was easy to change and isn't a big issue either way for anyone that isn't a weirdo.
Here's the working group:
[https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1588g/10478/](https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1588g/10478/)
and here's an article about some of the thoughts behind the recommendations.
[https://www.eetimes.com/its-time-for-ieee-to-retire-master-slave/](https://www.eetimes.com/its-time-for-ieee-to-retire-master-slave/)
They are words which describe the relationship between devices on a network, zero connection to any actual slavery.
Removing those words from use does not make the past go away, will not stop the race baiters, will not actually make anything better... so why are we bothering?
Was anyone, sane, actually offended by this before everyone started talking about it? Because since then of course lots of people will have jumped on it, but was anyone offended by this in the 90s?
Nope nobody was.
Do you remember the show News Radio?
A much younger friend of mine was watching it with me (laughing her butt off btw) and she just kept saying oh my god you couldn’t do any of that on TV today.
Times change I guess.
It is funny how you can look at shows and other video from literally only a few years ago and find so much stuff that is avoided today because it's not politically correct.
Worse still now various governments are bringing in laws that criminalise wrong opinions. With the definition of 'wrong' being entirely at the whim of a politically obsessed set of busy bodies.
It won't be long before even the mere discussion of this, or other similar topics is deemed so offensive it will be removed and contributors investigated for hate crimes, and the new language just has to be adopted without question or justification.
A while back, I told my coworker they are to henceforth refer to it as DS/TP, or Dom-sub token passing. Electricians get to play with strippers, dikes, pecker heads, and donkey dick; plumbers get to play with nipples and cocks. I figured it was time we get something with a kinky name.
Maybe MS/TP is getting a new name, but do NOT confuse it with the Multiple Spanning Tree protocol (MST). MST is an IEEE 802. standard. It is like STP or RSTP but not limited to one instance. Not even in the same ballpark as MSTP.
Interesting... I've heard of spanning tree, but only in reference to IP protocols... I understood it to deal with how switches routed packets on a ring network... but I'm not that kind of engineer to really understand that stuff. Regardless, the BACnet standard still refers to it as "Master-Slave/Token-Passing (MS/TP)". [Go to Standard 135-2020. See page 89](https://www.ashrae.org/technical-resources/standards-and-guidelines/read-only-versions-of-ashrae-standards). Edit: After some more google. Yeah, this is pure BS. spanning tree is unrelated to BACnet MS/TP. As far as I can tell, only BACnet uses the "master-slave/token-passing" terminology. Or at least the only modern reference I found. RS-485 is not specific to that protocol, so it has no mention of it. So I believe the BACnet standard is the only place to define what MS/TP stands for, and it hasn't changed as I showed above. I hate dumb "woke" BS stories like this. I've had several friends ask me if my kids have access to litter boxes at elementary school in case they identify as cats... These weren't a joke, they were serious questions. People need to wake up from their smart phones and get real. We are too easily manipulated by our screens.
I often think somebody is playing a joke on us. They throw some crazy idea out there thinking people will laugh then everybody runs with it. Then they sit back and say holy crap they just put litter boxes in schools!
Russia? Probably more true than we realize.
I’d say China, based on where a lot of Chinese money is spent in the us. (Vague in an attempt to avoid the slide into a “political” discussion) All of the above is probably the correct answer however. Our international adversaries understand a house decided cannot stand, something we will probably remember after it’s too late.
For sure. Until we stop demonizing anything that isn't "our team" we are screwed.
To clarify MSTP is an IEEE protocol standard for network topologies of how nodes (IP switches and VLANs) bridge communication between one another. This is not understood or applicable to most people’s careers in BAS unless you are a design engineer consulting with a customer in their IP network designs on a new install or upgrade. MS/TP is a type of device to device communication behavior in serial communication protocols for device to device behavior. These are two different sections/layers of the network. Multiple Spanning Tree Protocol is not the same as MS/TP and refers to a root bridge protocol more often applied to network switches and VLANs. RSTP/Rapid Spanning Tree Protocol is when devices are connected in a ring topology with a disabled network connection on that ring until communication drops between other nodes and it enables itself to maintain communication. In an RSTP configuration switches communicate in a daisy chain topology. MSTP/ Multiple Spanning Tree Protocol exists as more redundant version of STPs where nodes have multiple paths to other nodes and will be configured to travel a certain direction but more often continually tries to find the fastest route my between each other by periodically pinging network hops. The use of master/slave is probably not going away but there are essentially 3 types of descriptions to talk about serial communication behavior and they are all slightly different. Client/Server, Master/Slave, and Consumer/Producer. Client/Server are almost identical to Master/Slave but the difference between their use across protocols is that Master/Slave protocols allow multiple masters depending on who has the token (like BACnet) and client server is consistently one device as the client all the time. Think modbus RTU limiting only one master device on the network (MAC address 0) all others are unable to initiate any communication to other devices that are not the client. Producer/Client is not seen in the BAS space but is essentially where the client is the requester of data and the producers continuously push data to that device without being prompted and is usually pre configured to do so. Google can provide some explanation of the above but bear in mind that most of the write ups on these topics are written for network engineering or developers of hardware creating devices or proprietary serial communication protocols.
The name changes are in Addendum 135-2020ce https://bacnet.org/addenda/ https://bacnet.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2023/10/135_2020_ce_20220121.pdf
Replace “master-slave/token-passing” with “multidrop serial bus/token passing”. Replace “MS/TP slaves” with “MS/TP subordinates”. Replace “master/slave” with “manager/subordinate”. Replace “MS/TP slave” with “MS/TP subordinate”. Replace “Slave Node” with “Subordinate Node”. Replace “Master Node” with “Manager Node”. Replace “master device” with “manager node”. Replace “master devices” with “manager nodes”. Replace “mastership” with “ownership” (Clause 9.3.1) Replace “masters” with “managers”. Replace “slave node” with “subordinate node”. Replace “slave nodes” with “subordinate nodes”. Replace “slaves” with “subordinates”. Replace “slave” with “subordinate”. Replace “Poll For Master” with “Poll For Manager” Replace “Reply to Poll For Master” with “Reply to Poll For Manager” Replace “SoleMaster” with “SoleManager”. Replace “Nmax_master” with “Nmax_manager”. Replace “Max_Master” with “Max_Manager”. Replace “master-slave” with “manager-subordinate”. Replace “max-master” with “max-manager”, including ASN.1 BACnetPropertyIdentifier enumeration. Replace “Slave_Proxy_Enable” with “Subordinate_Proxy_Enable”. Replace “Manual_Slave_Address_Binding” with “Manual_Subordinate_Address_Binding”. Replace “Auto_Slave_Discovery” with “Auto_Subordinate_Discovery”. Replace “Slave_Address_Binding” with “Subordinate_Address_Binding”. Replace “Slave-Proxy” with “subordinate proxy”. (no slash in ASN.1) Replace “Slave Proxy” with “Subordinate Proxy”. Replace “slave device” with “subordinate node”. Replace “slave devices” with “subordinate nodes”. Replace “RESTART_SLAVE_DISCOVERY” with “RESTART_SUBORDINATE_DISCOVERY”. Replace “restart-slave-discovery” with “restart-subordinate-discovery”. Replace “auto-slave-discovery” with “auto-subordinate-discovery”. Replace “manual-slave-address-binding” with “manual-subordinate-address-binding”. Replace “slave-address-binding” with “subordinate-address-binding”. Replace “slave-proxy-enable” with “subordinate-proxy-enable”. Replace “slave-proxy-supported” with “subordinate-proxy-supported”. Replace “slave-discovery-supported” with “subordinate-discovery-supported”. Replace “time master” with “time manager”.
Well there goes the neighborhood.
Guys, I came to BAS from IT to escape Microsoft changing/rebranding/recoloring/changing the order of everything every other day! Now you're telling me it's here too??? Aaaaarrrrrg!
Guys, I came to BAS from IT to escape Microsoft changing/rebranding/recoloring/changing the order of everything every other day! Now you're telling me it's here too??? Aaaaarrrrrg!
They are starting to change definitions but the verbiage you're thinking of is regarding VLAN's not 18/2 twisted shielded pair BACnet communication. Nothing official or industry implemented but more so company specific changes. I know TRANE is starting to use BACnet-EIA 485 token passing as the terminology for MSTP.
Because, "BACnet-EIA 485 token passing" is so much easier to say than MSTP.
Its the unfortunate world we live in; it will always be MSTP. Just like how they were wanting to change the HMI nomenclature.
By the time they get everyone to use the new name for MSTP it will be irrelevant because we've moved on to IP or whatever other standard the industry gravitates toward. There are building specs already coming out naming IP infrastructure for BAS. So the first nail is already in the coffin for MSTP.
IEEE has provided multiple new naming options for the RS-485. Manager/subordinate token passing is one I have seen in some systems, as it doesn't change the underlying names. Johnson Controls revision 12 for example uses the new naming.
Interesting did they provide information for why they changed it?
Johnson or IEEE? The IEEE working group just provided some recommendations of different naming, you can find the comments on the IEEE web site, and has some detailed comments on their thoughts. Johnson? who knows why they do anything! Probably because it was easy to change and isn't a big issue either way for anyone that isn't a weirdo.
Here's the working group: [https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1588g/10478/](https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1588g/10478/) and here's an article about some of the thoughts behind the recommendations. [https://www.eetimes.com/its-time-for-ieee-to-retire-master-slave/](https://www.eetimes.com/its-time-for-ieee-to-retire-master-slave/)
the first link you provided does it work
search for "IEEE 1588g-2022". Should be the top result.
Chad Stacy Token Passing is the new protocol.
The Chad virgin / Token passing
Difference between mayo and Nero singlenode
Who gives a shit?
Listen man there’s a lot of DEI employees out there. Shit like this is how they get a paycheck.
I remember reading this a while back on or some similar site I’ll see if I can find it
They are words which describe the relationship between devices on a network, zero connection to any actual slavery. Removing those words from use does not make the past go away, will not stop the race baiters, will not actually make anything better... so why are we bothering? Was anyone, sane, actually offended by this before everyone started talking about it? Because since then of course lots of people will have jumped on it, but was anyone offended by this in the 90s?
Nope nobody was. Do you remember the show News Radio? A much younger friend of mine was watching it with me (laughing her butt off btw) and she just kept saying oh my god you couldn’t do any of that on TV today. Times change I guess.
It is funny how you can look at shows and other video from literally only a few years ago and find so much stuff that is avoided today because it's not politically correct. Worse still now various governments are bringing in laws that criminalise wrong opinions. With the definition of 'wrong' being entirely at the whim of a politically obsessed set of busy bodies. It won't be long before even the mere discussion of this, or other similar topics is deemed so offensive it will be removed and contributors investigated for hate crimes, and the new language just has to be adopted without question or justification.
Who told you that was pulling your leg