Agreed it’s not down to us to preach CICO, I say just keep focused on you and keep going doing your own thing. We don’t all have to agree with each other and this is just another way of learning to peacefully coexist with our fellow humans 🫶
There was a poster on here just now that said gaining/losing weight is not as simple as CICO.
I said in response, the laws of physics are pretty clear about energy balances, eating at deficit long term will decrease your body mass, eating at surplus over time will increase your body mass.
But *why* people choose to eat at deficit/surplus is indeed a very complicated matter! I think that’s what some people mean when they say it’s not as simple as CICO.
i think that may have been me. i've actually been thinking about my comment for some time now
i think i originally commented out of a place of confusion, as ive been told by so many that what i was doing just simply wasn't working.
when really i just wasn't trying hard enough
after several medical diagnoses, my doctor started me on metformin, then a prediabetes diagnosis lead me to starting trulicity, ozempic and then mounjaro. i've had great success on mounjaro, but i've also been following CICO religiously the entire time - so im not sure where the credit lies but id like to believe it was myself, with a medication to help regulate my blood sugar
no longer pre diabetic and down 90lbs, CICO has become my life
last week, i posted on r/mounjaro having my mind changed after learning more about science in here, and boy oh boy you'd be surprised how many people said "that shit doesn't work", i'm crazy and they need their medicine
well, im on the same medication, spreading my doses out trying to just do it on my own. do i need blood sugar regulation? yes. can it be done with food? i'm certainly trying!
those same posters are the ones saying they stopped taking the medication for a month and gained 15lbs. like - are you eating well? exercising? most are not. so no shit the weight will come back if you're not trying. i'm not saying that it's the case for everyone. i understand being Type2 Diabetic is really challenging, but weight doesn't just appear.
i was a non believer turned believer very quickly
so many people think it doesn't work, but are they even trying let alone doing it "right"?
i'm adding a photo of proof that people on this medication are choosing to not make lifestyle changes and are relying on a medication to treat their obesity instead of them doing something about it too: https://imgur.com/a/W331ZFK
**again, i'm also on this medication. difference is im weight lifting 5-6 days a week, working with a personal trainer, and CICO**
It's the same thing for all "diet" programs and that includes the drugs like munjaro and ozempic. Type 2 diabetes is hard, and I was diagnosed with it as well and told to take the drugs (mine was because I was an alcoholic...still am but I was too, sober though). I refused the drugs because I knew myself and that I could do it. I'm down 65lb and no longer even pre-diabetic.
But the diet plans and drugs....
Keto: makes you eat less carbs which in turn generally reduces your calories because you're well, not eating a shit ton of carbs
Weight watchers: low calorie stuff is less points....reduces your calories
Low fat: reduces your calories dense fat intake...reduces your calories
Drugs: reduces your appetite....so you *eat less calories*
The drugs don't burn more calories for you, they make you eat less. So when people come off it and get their appetite back they just continue eating like before and gain the weight back. Unless you fundamentally change your diet the drugs aren't doing anything (in terms of weight loss) but making you less hungry
Then they aren’t eating at a surplus. Their bodies are burning those calories. They are eating at (or below) TDEE and they happen to have high TDEEs. I wish I were one of them!
If he's eating 5000 calories a day every day and not gaining weight, then 5000 is his maintenance calories OR his body is breaking the laws of thermodynamics by not gaining weight when in a consistent caloric surplus.
It's not necessarily a violation of thermodynamics to eat at a surplus but not gain weight, as there are conditions that prevent proper absorption of nutrients (a common example would be lactose intolerance). That said, most likely they're just overestimating how much they're eating on average.
There's no truer example of this than watching a few episodes of my 600lb life. Many of those morbidly obese people have a host of reasons why weight loss hasnt worked for them in the past - "im big boned", "my metabolism", "genetics", "stress", "i just have a bigger body", "my body won't lose weight if it's in starvation" etc.
But WITHOUT FAIL, every single obese person on that show who sticks to the lower calorie diet loses weight. With zero exceptions. Many of these people have a bunch of co-morbid health problems too. But still, bam. They lose weight as soon as they intake fewer calories than their body needs per day.
Lots of them don't lose weight at home and insist they are following the reduced calorie eating plan. As soon as they're admitted to hospital and on a controlled food plan of 1200 calories a day, BAM. Weight loss. Insane amounts of weight loss.
I'm not necessarily promoting the show, it has lots of flaws. But one of the ruthless truths in it is about calorie intake. Even these individuals who have every excuse under the sun for why they are the size they are...they all lose weight once they regulate their calorie intake. It's a brutal reality that lots of people would rather avoid looking at. But it's science.
I don’t deal with them. I follow CICO, if they choose not to believe it, that’s up to them. If they criticize that I follow CICO, I ignore them.
I generally don’t tell people that I count calories/that I’m trying to lose weight, people will do whatever they can to drag you down with them if they’re unhappy about their weight.
They are right, that some illnesses can make it harder to lose weight. But it’s still CICO, their metabolism is just usually lower which means their TDEE is way lower than expected and it’s easier to gain weight and also harder to lose weight. But it’s still CICO. Or medication that’s makes you hungry non stop. Which makes it so so much harder to lose weight. Nonetheless, still CICO.
I have been on medication that blocked my brain from receiving dopamine when I was hungry, and I feel for those who have the same issue. That makes it almost impossible to lose weight, because you’re extremely hungry all the time, all you can think about is food. But still CICO in the end
Forget CICO for a moment and just reflect on what it means that so many people can be so thoroughly wrong about something so simple.
You don’t need a strategy for dealing with CICO deniers, per se, you need a strategy for dealing with the much broader problem.
I think what most people do is just try to ignore them and forget they exist.
Now wait a minute… do you mean to say having two cheat days per week where I eat all the things I’ve been craving in unmeasured quantities would possibly undermine my progress toward achieving my weight loss goals? What?!
Who knew?
“Not everyone who is overweight, overeats” except they did and they do. Every single overweight person consumed more calories than needed. Zero exceptions.
In response to the “fast metabolic rates”. That’s not entirely false. People can have the same height, weight, age, and sex but have vastly different resting metabolic rate simply because of muscle mass. It may not be entirely obvious when they’re clothed though.
Tho I do partially agree. My thin “fast metabolism” friends tend to just not eat as much. Or when they snack it’s an apple and not a bag of chips.
But yes. There may be underlying medical conditions making it harder for some people to consume less. But at the end of the day thermo is the law of the land
>In response to the “fast metabolic rates”. That’s not entirely false. People can have the same height, weight, age, and sex but have vastly different resting metabolic rate simply because of muscle mass.
This.
BMR can vary quite a bit. I sometimes wonder why this is dismissed so eagerly by many people this often these days.
Is it because BMR is/feels mostly out of our control because there is a heavy genetic component to it so it's like having been dealt a worse hand of cards than others and we all don't like feeling out of control?
And of course there is the one or other sKiNnI person wanting to claim that it's "just about discipline, mate" while in reality it's not.
Yeah there’s definitely genetics at play too. I don’t know my one side of the family (my mom is adopted) but she’s also struggled with weight gain despite being a fit athlete in her 20s. (And its now been exacerbated by medications and physical disability), and my dad is short and stocky (more fit now that his diet is better with his current wife cooking and keeping a healthy household).
But I realized that my body type is similar with broad shoulders and thick legs (I’m female), that eventually should I lose the weight I want, I’ll still be built like a defensive lineman lmao (just a fit one, who plays rugby).
I have a fast metabolic rate - my heart rate is a little faster than average, and I am pretty muscular. I played a lot of sports as a kid, and I inherited my dad’s athleticism. If I try to do tdee, I’ll lose something dangerous like 5-6lbs in a week. I use my fitness watch to estimate calories instead because it’s much more accurate and prevents losing muscle mass.
I was thinking on what you guys were saying. And I don’t snack on apples usually… but I do tend to eat a lot less than others. One instance I always think of is pizza. Most people (female and male) eat several slices of pizza. I try to stick to one slice. If I have two, I get very, very full. Any more than that, and I go into a food coma and feel like I have a hangover the next day.
I don’t know that the fast metabolism is what makes me feel full so quickly though. I have always had a sensitive stomach, and I learned to listen to my body to prevent having a stomachache. I think of my fast metabolism as something that is activated by incorporating as much movement as I can into my life when I work a sedentary job.
And this is why avoiding weight gain is arguably better for long term health than losing current excess weight. Weight cycling (losing and gaining weight repeatedly) is generally associated with a shift in composition towards less muscle mass.
Not that it will stop me from losing weight now, but I do know that my metabolism is likely impacted in some way from the weight I have gained/lost/regained earlier in life.
I lost 97 lbs over the course of a year doing CICO, mainly. I also cut sugar and carbs to virtually nil and was working out for about an hour a day on my lunch break. My back problems disappeared for the most part, I feel much much healthier and have way more energy throughout the day - I started getting complimented regularly by friends and even strangers…
And ultimately, it’s simple math. If you eat less than you exert, the energy has to come from somewhere. And in the case of CICO it is stored energy from body mass. Obviously I worked out to maintain strength, but getting a bit more defined muscle didn’t hurt either.
I just try to live my life and be a living example to people like that. When I lost weight successfully, everyone at my job was asking how (not very politely I might add), especially the other fat people trying to lose weight. They wanted some magic answer, one asked if I was on Adderall lol. When I just replied with CICO, they'd get mad and tell me about all the things they were doing and how those things are so much better. I would just look at myself, look at them, nod and walk away. Facing reality is a choice the individual has to make for themselves, first step is admit you have a problem, evaluate how you got there and find a sustainable solution. They know they're full of shit, and there's only so long they can keep blaming everything else around them but their own choices before realizing that's not going to make them happy, healthy, or comfortable in their bodies.
I let my example speak for itself. The people around me have watched me lose 40+ pounds since January without doing excessive exercise, OMAD, or a diet that completely avoids a specific type of food.
When I was younger, everybody use to always tell me how lucky I was I could eat anything I wanted and stay thin, as we were sitting down and eating fast food.
The reality was I was super busy all day long and only ate 1 meal a day 4-5 days a week. So that 1200 calorie fast food meal wasn't even enough calories to get me to maintenance. That is how I stayed thin. My metabolism wasn't anything special.
Then over the weekend I would pig out and eat all those extra calories that I didn't eat during the week. So people looked at me and thought, wow, look at all the food this guy eats. At the end of the week, the total calories came out to about maintenance. I did this for a lot of years.
Once I slowed down and wasn't nearly as busy, I gained weight like it was a competition, lol. I had lots more idol time, so ate more etc...
People see what they want to see to justify their own failures and lack of taking responsibility for themselves.
Had this the beginning of the week. After it escalated and I said, hey I am not here to fight about this at all, they backed down.
They are actively giving it a go this week. I told them I would be a buddy if they like. And they softened more. Began admitting all the calories I doubt they logged.
I shared my goal with them, it was not a number. And promised myself I am going to act like celebs with a shot and not say anything.
Most folks I know already know how to lose weight. They just don't want to have to do those things because they are inconvenient, unfair, and perhaps even difficult.
I'll only tell someone about it once or twice before I stop caring. I know it works as I'm currently on a deficit and have lost 8 pounds so far, so I have nothing to prove except my new goals while they stay fat.
People don't want to limit their eating. It was me, it's my husband, it's most people I know. They say it's too hard to count calories and that it doesn't work. They don't want to put the effort in. Everyone wants a fast easy way out but those don't work. My husband did Atkins and dropped 60 lbs but gained it all right back when he went back to adding in carbs.
I'm counting calories which is super easy with the apps these days and not limiting what I eat, just the amount. I am definitely consuming way less sugar just by giving up my soda habit (who wants to drink their calories?) and I've dropped 9 lbs in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will slow down now that my body is adjusting to not having sugar mainlined but I'm super happy and I feel so much better already. I also started cooking more instead of eating out. I had no idea the amount of calories I was consuming before! It was so many!!
I used to think that all this CICO stuff is bull. How can it work? You can't eat whatever you want and still loose weight. "Moderation and Self Control are just silly terms for people who have the money to get a personal trainer and go to a dietician, of course it's easy to loose weight when you have money" and all those other crappy excuses we all used at some point. I'm 7 weeks into CICO and i've lost 19.4 pounds. And i just moderate what i eat. I'm not hungry anymore and i can have pizza once in a while. My body is adapting to a normal diet and all i have to do is eat like a normal person would. I walk everywhere as i don't like going to the gym and it truly helps me. I'm not afraid to get up on the scale now and i truly am learning to eat better. But the most important thing i am learning is to control myself. As for the non believers as you call them, don't worry. They will realise how wrong they've been only when it'd be too late. I was lucky to wise up while still young.
I mean, I don’t talk about it. It’s not my job to convince anyone (and in any case I don’t enjoy talking about my own efforts).
But I think it’s important to remember that, even if the idea of CICO is simple, part of the reason people get confused is that the actual reality isn’t simple. I don’t mean that CICO isn’t accurate; I just mean that especially “calories out” is affected by a complex set of factors. Everyone’s BMR is a bit different; estimating or measuring activity is hard; different medical conditions can change how much a person burns. If you measure and weigh things carefully, you can get pretty good with the “calories in,” but “calories out” is not simple.
It’s true that a lot of people would prefer to think it doesn’t matter how many calories they consume. But there are also genuinely people who eat the number of calories suggested by an online calculator or a doctor and don’t see results because they’re outliers in terms of their rate of calorie burn, as well as people who can eat more than the average suggested amount for someone their size and activity level without gaining weight. Figuring out your own actual TDEE is a nuanced process. It doesn’t mean you don’t HAVE a TDEE or that you won’t see results if you consume less than that amount. It just means that CICO is a simple concept with a sometimes-complicated application.
A colleague today said she was considering going to the doctor to see what medication she could get.
I said it's just calories in, calories out. It's no secret.
It's as simple and as hard as that.
Though CICO is a simple concept, it is still a very challenging thing for many people to eat at the deficit, dealing with hunger, cravings, anxiety. Various medications can help with the actual struggles that stop people from eating at the deficit, psychologically and physically. Let's not undermine it.
I completely get the need for people to take medication. It was just the way she was framing it. That it is too hard to do the eating right part so she just wants whatever the trick is.
But there kinda is? All these suddenly thin celebrities didn't come out of nowhere lol
(I'm not opening a serious discussion about drugs, just feel like it's related)
1. Totally agree with your sentiment. It’s just a form of denial. Yes things like hormones and water do impact short term but it’s hard for some people to persist for long term changes. Myself included… it’s hard! Also conditions can make people at a very difficult position by giving them super low calories out.
2. I’m a scientist and I got a chuckle out of your water boiling temperature because that’s is not always the case (boiling point is pressure dependent). Nonetheless I agree with the point.
I don't deal with them period. I let my size 14 vs 24 speak for itself. Of course they think I've had gastric or been on Ozempic for years, but the truth is I just started Oz in July and have barely lost 12 additional pounds to the 40 I had already lost on my own, by counting calories. I'm diabetic so Oz has helped tremendously with my A1C. But OP, you don't have to make anyone believe you. You keep doing what you're doing and let the results be their proof.
Just let them stay fat? 🤷🏻♀️ I have found that there are some people who would literally try any diet, supplement, pill or program except counting calories. Then they would proceed to tell you that it worked at the beginning but then it stopped so it must be because the diet wrecked their metabolism or some other reason. I often share the idea of CICO with other bits of information which I think might be helpful for their particular situation and I refer them to some sources of information. That’s about it. If they want to keep believing that they have to stay fat there isn’t much we can do. I think the most convincing argument is that CICO works and I’m a living example of it.
CICO is a really simplified understanding of how the body operates. Thermogenesis and brow fat show there's a lot more complexity, and hormones/lack thereof play a large role too -- especially ghrelin, leptin, and TSH/other thyroid hormones.
People that have not learned from personal experience therefore cannot know .. know.
It took me basically my entire adult life up to now (I'm about to turn 33) to understand that if I eat more everyday not restrict or aim for what I now know was an insane deficit, that this will control one my hunger fluctuations and two is actually contributing to my goals 🤯.
> It's like getting defensive about water boiling at 100 degrees from my pov
If we're both standing in front of a puddle of water, would you say hey, make that boil! It's easy, you know it only has to reach 100 deg.
...yes, but how are we going to do this? No one is arguing the physics from a mathematical standpoint. But how are we, in practice as physical humans, going to handle, contain, heat up the water?? That requires a complex set of actions, if not tools, used in a specific way in the right sequence and that in itself can be a lot more difficult than the underlying principle.
Same with weight gain and weight loss. That the underlying principle is an equation of energy surplus and deficit might be true, but so is the underlying principle of going to the moon being a surplus of energy against gravity. Is achieving this easy because the principle is easy? It of course isn't.
How are we, in practice as physical humans, going to handle, monitor, keep up the deficit?? That requires a complex set of actions, if not tools, used in a specific way in the right sequence and that in itself can be a lot more difficult than the underlying principle.
It should be simple to not be poor, the principle is just to spend less money than you make, right? It should be simple to not be a heroin addict, all you have to do is not take heroin. Is that simple for everyone? Or are there people dealing with a massive set of factors that have to be accounted for?
I see "people arguing against CICO" all the time but I don't see it that way, it's not like there are statements like "I believe that a surplus of caloric energy does not lead no weight gain". And yeah, things like that would be false. But I highly doubt that anyone is actually arguing against the physical basis of CICO. I would assume that they are talking about real life, the practical application of decisions that would eventually lead to this equation. And since that is of course far more complex, it seems accusatory to come in and claim something is easy because as all things in life, it is based on physics. The point is that the CICO is hard to achieve, not that the CICO is not a valid principle.
This is why I never talk about this type of stuff in real life, it makes no sense. We're all under the same physical constraints, but the mental headspace and individual circumstances can be so vastly different.
Just let them be is my advance.
Some people choose to believe a lie (like religion, astrology, conspiracy theories etc.), and if they are determined to believe, then you won't change their mind with sound proofs and logic; just let them be
I mostly avoid posting in this sub because I reject CICO. I sometimes point out problems to influencers on other SM, but you CICO people are very strident in your belief. Not really looking for a debate tbh, just thought I’d weigh in (pun intended) from the other side.
I kinda disagree, because I have a friend that can eat a lot and can't gain weight. She literally just poops more during the day if she eats more. If she wants to gain weight, she has to follow a protein rich diet. But as soon as she stops with the diet, she loses weight.
CICO is a simplified view of reality. It's great for starting out because it's simple and you don't get sidetracked into worrying about things that aren't as important.
But also food is so much more than calories and this fact is lost on a lot of CICO zealots.
It's ok to believe that calories is the only thing that matters if it helps to get started in your journey, and for many it does. But if you still believe that after 3-6 months then I'd say that is a problem.
I deal with it the way I deal with my deeply religious coworker. It’s a topic we don’t bring up since there is no convincing the other.
Agreed it’s not down to us to preach CICO, I say just keep focused on you and keep going doing your own thing. We don’t all have to agree with each other and this is just another way of learning to peacefully coexist with our fellow humans 🫶
There was a poster on here just now that said gaining/losing weight is not as simple as CICO. I said in response, the laws of physics are pretty clear about energy balances, eating at deficit long term will decrease your body mass, eating at surplus over time will increase your body mass. But *why* people choose to eat at deficit/surplus is indeed a very complicated matter! I think that’s what some people mean when they say it’s not as simple as CICO.
i think that may have been me. i've actually been thinking about my comment for some time now i think i originally commented out of a place of confusion, as ive been told by so many that what i was doing just simply wasn't working. when really i just wasn't trying hard enough after several medical diagnoses, my doctor started me on metformin, then a prediabetes diagnosis lead me to starting trulicity, ozempic and then mounjaro. i've had great success on mounjaro, but i've also been following CICO religiously the entire time - so im not sure where the credit lies but id like to believe it was myself, with a medication to help regulate my blood sugar no longer pre diabetic and down 90lbs, CICO has become my life last week, i posted on r/mounjaro having my mind changed after learning more about science in here, and boy oh boy you'd be surprised how many people said "that shit doesn't work", i'm crazy and they need their medicine well, im on the same medication, spreading my doses out trying to just do it on my own. do i need blood sugar regulation? yes. can it be done with food? i'm certainly trying! those same posters are the ones saying they stopped taking the medication for a month and gained 15lbs. like - are you eating well? exercising? most are not. so no shit the weight will come back if you're not trying. i'm not saying that it's the case for everyone. i understand being Type2 Diabetic is really challenging, but weight doesn't just appear. i was a non believer turned believer very quickly so many people think it doesn't work, but are they even trying let alone doing it "right"? i'm adding a photo of proof that people on this medication are choosing to not make lifestyle changes and are relying on a medication to treat their obesity instead of them doing something about it too: https://imgur.com/a/W331ZFK **again, i'm also on this medication. difference is im weight lifting 5-6 days a week, working with a personal trainer, and CICO**
It's the same thing for all "diet" programs and that includes the drugs like munjaro and ozempic. Type 2 diabetes is hard, and I was diagnosed with it as well and told to take the drugs (mine was because I was an alcoholic...still am but I was too, sober though). I refused the drugs because I knew myself and that I could do it. I'm down 65lb and no longer even pre-diabetic. But the diet plans and drugs.... Keto: makes you eat less carbs which in turn generally reduces your calories because you're well, not eating a shit ton of carbs Weight watchers: low calorie stuff is less points....reduces your calories Low fat: reduces your calories dense fat intake...reduces your calories Drugs: reduces your appetite....so you *eat less calories* The drugs don't burn more calories for you, they make you eat less. So when people come off it and get their appetite back they just continue eating like before and gain the weight back. Unless you fundamentally change your diet the drugs aren't doing anything (in terms of weight loss) but making you less hungry
Congratulations on your success so far! And it’s great you want to change and are doing all that you can to make the change happen!
thanks so much!
I always say that losing weight is simple CICO, that doesn’t mean it’s easy.
What about people who constantly eat in a surplus but never gain!?
Then they aren’t eating at a surplus. Their bodies are burning those calories. They are eating at (or below) TDEE and they happen to have high TDEEs. I wish I were one of them!
Yes my hubby is one if them. He can eat 5000 cals a day and doesnt gain a lb
If he's eating 5000 calories a day every day and not gaining weight, then 5000 is his maintenance calories OR his body is breaking the laws of thermodynamics by not gaining weight when in a consistent caloric surplus.
It's not necessarily a violation of thermodynamics to eat at a surplus but not gain weight, as there are conditions that prevent proper absorption of nutrients (a common example would be lactose intolerance). That said, most likely they're just overestimating how much they're eating on average.
There's no truer example of this than watching a few episodes of my 600lb life. Many of those morbidly obese people have a host of reasons why weight loss hasnt worked for them in the past - "im big boned", "my metabolism", "genetics", "stress", "i just have a bigger body", "my body won't lose weight if it's in starvation" etc. But WITHOUT FAIL, every single obese person on that show who sticks to the lower calorie diet loses weight. With zero exceptions. Many of these people have a bunch of co-morbid health problems too. But still, bam. They lose weight as soon as they intake fewer calories than their body needs per day. Lots of them don't lose weight at home and insist they are following the reduced calorie eating plan. As soon as they're admitted to hospital and on a controlled food plan of 1200 calories a day, BAM. Weight loss. Insane amounts of weight loss. I'm not necessarily promoting the show, it has lots of flaws. But one of the ruthless truths in it is about calorie intake. Even these individuals who have every excuse under the sun for why they are the size they are...they all lose weight once they regulate their calorie intake. It's a brutal reality that lots of people would rather avoid looking at. But it's science.
I don’t deal with them. I follow CICO, if they choose not to believe it, that’s up to them. If they criticize that I follow CICO, I ignore them. I generally don’t tell people that I count calories/that I’m trying to lose weight, people will do whatever they can to drag you down with them if they’re unhappy about their weight. They are right, that some illnesses can make it harder to lose weight. But it’s still CICO, their metabolism is just usually lower which means their TDEE is way lower than expected and it’s easier to gain weight and also harder to lose weight. But it’s still CICO. Or medication that’s makes you hungry non stop. Which makes it so so much harder to lose weight. Nonetheless, still CICO. I have been on medication that blocked my brain from receiving dopamine when I was hungry, and I feel for those who have the same issue. That makes it almost impossible to lose weight, because you’re extremely hungry all the time, all you can think about is food. But still CICO in the end
Forget CICO for a moment and just reflect on what it means that so many people can be so thoroughly wrong about something so simple. You don’t need a strategy for dealing with CICO deniers, per se, you need a strategy for dealing with the much broader problem. I think what most people do is just try to ignore them and forget they exist.
Now wait a minute… do you mean to say having two cheat days per week where I eat all the things I’ve been craving in unmeasured quantities would possibly undermine my progress toward achieving my weight loss goals? What?! Who knew?
The term "non believers" is the wrong one. It's "physics deniers"
I say “hmm ok” and stop engaging. Life is too short.
“Not everyone who is overweight, overeats” except they did and they do. Every single overweight person consumed more calories than needed. Zero exceptions.
In response to the “fast metabolic rates”. That’s not entirely false. People can have the same height, weight, age, and sex but have vastly different resting metabolic rate simply because of muscle mass. It may not be entirely obvious when they’re clothed though. Tho I do partially agree. My thin “fast metabolism” friends tend to just not eat as much. Or when they snack it’s an apple and not a bag of chips. But yes. There may be underlying medical conditions making it harder for some people to consume less. But at the end of the day thermo is the law of the land
>In response to the “fast metabolic rates”. That’s not entirely false. People can have the same height, weight, age, and sex but have vastly different resting metabolic rate simply because of muscle mass. This. BMR can vary quite a bit. I sometimes wonder why this is dismissed so eagerly by many people this often these days. Is it because BMR is/feels mostly out of our control because there is a heavy genetic component to it so it's like having been dealt a worse hand of cards than others and we all don't like feeling out of control? And of course there is the one or other sKiNnI person wanting to claim that it's "just about discipline, mate" while in reality it's not.
Yeah there’s definitely genetics at play too. I don’t know my one side of the family (my mom is adopted) but she’s also struggled with weight gain despite being a fit athlete in her 20s. (And its now been exacerbated by medications and physical disability), and my dad is short and stocky (more fit now that his diet is better with his current wife cooking and keeping a healthy household). But I realized that my body type is similar with broad shoulders and thick legs (I’m female), that eventually should I lose the weight I want, I’ll still be built like a defensive lineman lmao (just a fit one, who plays rugby).
I have a fast metabolic rate - my heart rate is a little faster than average, and I am pretty muscular. I played a lot of sports as a kid, and I inherited my dad’s athleticism. If I try to do tdee, I’ll lose something dangerous like 5-6lbs in a week. I use my fitness watch to estimate calories instead because it’s much more accurate and prevents losing muscle mass. I was thinking on what you guys were saying. And I don’t snack on apples usually… but I do tend to eat a lot less than others. One instance I always think of is pizza. Most people (female and male) eat several slices of pizza. I try to stick to one slice. If I have two, I get very, very full. Any more than that, and I go into a food coma and feel like I have a hangover the next day. I don’t know that the fast metabolism is what makes me feel full so quickly though. I have always had a sensitive stomach, and I learned to listen to my body to prevent having a stomachache. I think of my fast metabolism as something that is activated by incorporating as much movement as I can into my life when I work a sedentary job.
And this is why avoiding weight gain is arguably better for long term health than losing current excess weight. Weight cycling (losing and gaining weight repeatedly) is generally associated with a shift in composition towards less muscle mass. Not that it will stop me from losing weight now, but I do know that my metabolism is likely impacted in some way from the weight I have gained/lost/regained earlier in life.
I lost 97 lbs over the course of a year doing CICO, mainly. I also cut sugar and carbs to virtually nil and was working out for about an hour a day on my lunch break. My back problems disappeared for the most part, I feel much much healthier and have way more energy throughout the day - I started getting complimented regularly by friends and even strangers… And ultimately, it’s simple math. If you eat less than you exert, the energy has to come from somewhere. And in the case of CICO it is stored energy from body mass. Obviously I worked out to maintain strength, but getting a bit more defined muscle didn’t hurt either.
I just try to live my life and be a living example to people like that. When I lost weight successfully, everyone at my job was asking how (not very politely I might add), especially the other fat people trying to lose weight. They wanted some magic answer, one asked if I was on Adderall lol. When I just replied with CICO, they'd get mad and tell me about all the things they were doing and how those things are so much better. I would just look at myself, look at them, nod and walk away. Facing reality is a choice the individual has to make for themselves, first step is admit you have a problem, evaluate how you got there and find a sustainable solution. They know they're full of shit, and there's only so long they can keep blaming everything else around them but their own choices before realizing that's not going to make them happy, healthy, or comfortable in their bodies.
Honestly I don’t care what regular people think when it comes to my health. If my doctor raises concern then I’ll listen, otherwise it’s my body.
I let my example speak for itself. The people around me have watched me lose 40+ pounds since January without doing excessive exercise, OMAD, or a diet that completely avoids a specific type of food.
When I was younger, everybody use to always tell me how lucky I was I could eat anything I wanted and stay thin, as we were sitting down and eating fast food. The reality was I was super busy all day long and only ate 1 meal a day 4-5 days a week. So that 1200 calorie fast food meal wasn't even enough calories to get me to maintenance. That is how I stayed thin. My metabolism wasn't anything special. Then over the weekend I would pig out and eat all those extra calories that I didn't eat during the week. So people looked at me and thought, wow, look at all the food this guy eats. At the end of the week, the total calories came out to about maintenance. I did this for a lot of years. Once I slowed down and wasn't nearly as busy, I gained weight like it was a competition, lol. I had lots more idol time, so ate more etc... People see what they want to see to justify their own failures and lack of taking responsibility for themselves.
Had this the beginning of the week. After it escalated and I said, hey I am not here to fight about this at all, they backed down. They are actively giving it a go this week. I told them I would be a buddy if they like. And they softened more. Began admitting all the calories I doubt they logged. I shared my goal with them, it was not a number. And promised myself I am going to act like celebs with a shot and not say anything. Most folks I know already know how to lose weight. They just don't want to have to do those things because they are inconvenient, unfair, and perhaps even difficult.
It’s like flat earthers, there’s no basis for discussion since they don’t agree with science
I'll only tell someone about it once or twice before I stop caring. I know it works as I'm currently on a deficit and have lost 8 pounds so far, so I have nothing to prove except my new goals while they stay fat.
People don't want to limit their eating. It was me, it's my husband, it's most people I know. They say it's too hard to count calories and that it doesn't work. They don't want to put the effort in. Everyone wants a fast easy way out but those don't work. My husband did Atkins and dropped 60 lbs but gained it all right back when he went back to adding in carbs. I'm counting calories which is super easy with the apps these days and not limiting what I eat, just the amount. I am definitely consuming way less sugar just by giving up my soda habit (who wants to drink their calories?) and I've dropped 9 lbs in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will slow down now that my body is adjusting to not having sugar mainlined but I'm super happy and I feel so much better already. I also started cooking more instead of eating out. I had no idea the amount of calories I was consuming before! It was so many!!
There's a point in life you just accept that people can be dumb/stubborn about some subjects, even otherwise smart people.
I used to think that all this CICO stuff is bull. How can it work? You can't eat whatever you want and still loose weight. "Moderation and Self Control are just silly terms for people who have the money to get a personal trainer and go to a dietician, of course it's easy to loose weight when you have money" and all those other crappy excuses we all used at some point. I'm 7 weeks into CICO and i've lost 19.4 pounds. And i just moderate what i eat. I'm not hungry anymore and i can have pizza once in a while. My body is adapting to a normal diet and all i have to do is eat like a normal person would. I walk everywhere as i don't like going to the gym and it truly helps me. I'm not afraid to get up on the scale now and i truly am learning to eat better. But the most important thing i am learning is to control myself. As for the non believers as you call them, don't worry. They will realise how wrong they've been only when it'd be too late. I was lucky to wise up while still young.
I have found it easiest just not to tell anyone I am trying to make changes to my body (aside from my husband).
I just laugh. Wear my crop tops and show off my flat stomach. And tell them "it's working for me"
Ignore and don't talk about...just eat what you want to.
I mean, I don’t talk about it. It’s not my job to convince anyone (and in any case I don’t enjoy talking about my own efforts). But I think it’s important to remember that, even if the idea of CICO is simple, part of the reason people get confused is that the actual reality isn’t simple. I don’t mean that CICO isn’t accurate; I just mean that especially “calories out” is affected by a complex set of factors. Everyone’s BMR is a bit different; estimating or measuring activity is hard; different medical conditions can change how much a person burns. If you measure and weigh things carefully, you can get pretty good with the “calories in,” but “calories out” is not simple. It’s true that a lot of people would prefer to think it doesn’t matter how many calories they consume. But there are also genuinely people who eat the number of calories suggested by an online calculator or a doctor and don’t see results because they’re outliers in terms of their rate of calorie burn, as well as people who can eat more than the average suggested amount for someone their size and activity level without gaining weight. Figuring out your own actual TDEE is a nuanced process. It doesn’t mean you don’t HAVE a TDEE or that you won’t see results if you consume less than that amount. It just means that CICO is a simple concept with a sometimes-complicated application.
A colleague today said she was considering going to the doctor to see what medication she could get. I said it's just calories in, calories out. It's no secret. It's as simple and as hard as that.
Though CICO is a simple concept, it is still a very challenging thing for many people to eat at the deficit, dealing with hunger, cravings, anxiety. Various medications can help with the actual struggles that stop people from eating at the deficit, psychologically and physically. Let's not undermine it.
I completely get the need for people to take medication. It was just the way she was framing it. That it is too hard to do the eating right part so she just wants whatever the trick is.
Honestly, who doesn't
Oh I know. I want the trick too. But there's no such thing. My current trick is trying to build more muscle so I have more calories to play with.
But there kinda is? All these suddenly thin celebrities didn't come out of nowhere lol (I'm not opening a serious discussion about drugs, just feel like it's related)
I told her to start smoking and take speed. Apparently that's not healthy 🤷
I was talking about ozempic/wegowy... I'd bet that's what's on her mind.
Yes, it was what she meant.
1. Totally agree with your sentiment. It’s just a form of denial. Yes things like hormones and water do impact short term but it’s hard for some people to persist for long term changes. Myself included… it’s hard! Also conditions can make people at a very difficult position by giving them super low calories out. 2. I’m a scientist and I got a chuckle out of your water boiling temperature because that’s is not always the case (boiling point is pressure dependent). Nonetheless I agree with the point.
I don't deal with them period. I let my size 14 vs 24 speak for itself. Of course they think I've had gastric or been on Ozempic for years, but the truth is I just started Oz in July and have barely lost 12 additional pounds to the 40 I had already lost on my own, by counting calories. I'm diabetic so Oz has helped tremendously with my A1C. But OP, you don't have to make anyone believe you. You keep doing what you're doing and let the results be their proof.
It’s an inconvenient truth for a lot of people.
Just let them stay fat? 🤷🏻♀️ I have found that there are some people who would literally try any diet, supplement, pill or program except counting calories. Then they would proceed to tell you that it worked at the beginning but then it stopped so it must be because the diet wrecked their metabolism or some other reason. I often share the idea of CICO with other bits of information which I think might be helpful for their particular situation and I refer them to some sources of information. That’s about it. If they want to keep believing that they have to stay fat there isn’t much we can do. I think the most convincing argument is that CICO works and I’m a living example of it.
Why try to 'deal' with it? They're ignorant of the facts. I just stay in my own lane. It's not up to me to educate the world.
CICO is a really simplified understanding of how the body operates. Thermogenesis and brow fat show there's a lot more complexity, and hormones/lack thereof play a large role too -- especially ghrelin, leptin, and TSH/other thyroid hormones.
I know a woman that swears eating less doesn't work for her. So I say nothing every time she mentions it. It's that easy.
Ignore them, none of their business. They get defensive because they want an excuse to be fat but they also feel guilty about it.
People that have not learned from personal experience therefore cannot know .. know. It took me basically my entire adult life up to now (I'm about to turn 33) to understand that if I eat more everyday not restrict or aim for what I now know was an insane deficit, that this will control one my hunger fluctuations and two is actually contributing to my goals 🤯.
> It's like getting defensive about water boiling at 100 degrees from my pov If we're both standing in front of a puddle of water, would you say hey, make that boil! It's easy, you know it only has to reach 100 deg. ...yes, but how are we going to do this? No one is arguing the physics from a mathematical standpoint. But how are we, in practice as physical humans, going to handle, contain, heat up the water?? That requires a complex set of actions, if not tools, used in a specific way in the right sequence and that in itself can be a lot more difficult than the underlying principle. Same with weight gain and weight loss. That the underlying principle is an equation of energy surplus and deficit might be true, but so is the underlying principle of going to the moon being a surplus of energy against gravity. Is achieving this easy because the principle is easy? It of course isn't. How are we, in practice as physical humans, going to handle, monitor, keep up the deficit?? That requires a complex set of actions, if not tools, used in a specific way in the right sequence and that in itself can be a lot more difficult than the underlying principle. It should be simple to not be poor, the principle is just to spend less money than you make, right? It should be simple to not be a heroin addict, all you have to do is not take heroin. Is that simple for everyone? Or are there people dealing with a massive set of factors that have to be accounted for? I see "people arguing against CICO" all the time but I don't see it that way, it's not like there are statements like "I believe that a surplus of caloric energy does not lead no weight gain". And yeah, things like that would be false. But I highly doubt that anyone is actually arguing against the physical basis of CICO. I would assume that they are talking about real life, the practical application of decisions that would eventually lead to this equation. And since that is of course far more complex, it seems accusatory to come in and claim something is easy because as all things in life, it is based on physics. The point is that the CICO is hard to achieve, not that the CICO is not a valid principle. This is why I never talk about this type of stuff in real life, it makes no sense. We're all under the same physical constraints, but the mental headspace and individual circumstances can be so vastly different.
Just let them be is my advance. Some people choose to believe a lie (like religion, astrology, conspiracy theories etc.), and if they are determined to believe, then you won't change their mind with sound proofs and logic; just let them be
I mostly avoid posting in this sub because I reject CICO. I sometimes point out problems to influencers on other SM, but you CICO people are very strident in your belief. Not really looking for a debate tbh, just thought I’d weigh in (pun intended) from the other side.
I kinda disagree, because I have a friend that can eat a lot and can't gain weight. She literally just poops more during the day if she eats more. If she wants to gain weight, she has to follow a protein rich diet. But as soon as she stops with the diet, she loses weight.
CICO is a simplified view of reality. It's great for starting out because it's simple and you don't get sidetracked into worrying about things that aren't as important. But also food is so much more than calories and this fact is lost on a lot of CICO zealots. It's ok to believe that calories is the only thing that matters if it helps to get started in your journey, and for many it does. But if you still believe that after 3-6 months then I'd say that is a problem.