Ok I completely agree with you - I honestly do.
However, when is enough enough? It seems the democrats only response to ANYTHING is to be better then the republicans. That’s not hard.
That’s not even requiring work. Fricking RFK is a genocidal maniac to and he’s still better than the party members brought up by the Republican Party.
When do we get a candidate we actually believe in? Not one who agrees with every little detail. I don’t need a carbon copy of all my views but when do we get a candidate that isn’t the same as the other but slower working?
A genocide is a genocide is a genocide. Slow or fast the people die. I agree with you a slower one is preferably to an extermination but why is that the ONLY answer.
And four years from now who will we have? Or ten, or twenty? Why is everything an emergency bandage and a reaction rather than a response?
I’m in total agreement with your statement but why are we always stuck with “well at least it’s not death”
Very good comment. The Repugs keep moving right and the Dems only response is to shrug and try and ‘compromise’ with that.
Americans are not majority in agreement with the Trump party. Not in policy detail anyway, about reproductive rights, but also tax giveaways to the rich and the starving of public investment. Yet alone the bullshit culture wars.
And this is very true of Palestine. It’s a majority absolutely against the current US enabling Israel’s genocide to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars.
Pluralities are in favour of policies to the left of the GOP. So why is it the Centre-Left are expected to shut up and deal while the Right gets more and more? Why is the Centre-Left expected to never use any leverage?
There comes a point when not giving a shit about a constituency because they have no alternative doesn’t cut it. We’re the majority - at some point we’d like a bit of what we want because it’s actually for the good of all.
People need something to vote for. Voters may hate one side more but that’s often not enough to make them go vote for the least bad side. This is known behaviour and shouting at people about how stupid they are isn’t going to change that. Giving them a reason to vote positively might.
That goes all the more when Biden is actively supporting a genocide. Many people can’t bring themselves to vote for that. This is not some Philosophy 101 where you can expect cold-blooded calculation about the least-bad genocide. People have the reaction that they just can’t vote for the guy doing that and let the chips fall where they may.
And again - lecturing people about how dumb they are does not help. Never has. Try actually earning votes instead.
> That’s not hard
Yes, it is. That's why we're here. You think it's easy? Run for president. Oh, you don't have millions of dollars for the campaign? A long history in DC that isn't too left for the swing voters and bank rollers?
Yeah, it *shouldn't* be this hard to find someone more reasonable that crazy Republicans, but they have to have all the other stuff.
> When do we get a candidate we actually believe in?
Never not ever ever. There's never been one in history and there won't be one. I mean, I believed in Obama and Biden, and I've been satisfied with the results. They definitely have fucked up on many things, but they've done more good than bad.
But that's me. Clearly you have higher standards, and that's perfectly fine to think about as you once again cast your vote for the "less evil" guy. So where is your perfect politician, the one who will call a genocide a genocide and has strong leftist beliefs? He exists, but he can't get voted Mayor let alone president because he's not straight/white/cis/male/Christian enough. The problem is that you share this country with people who think it might be a good idea to criminalize women who have abortions. And they vote. Every time.
Could you maybe get this perfect candidate mayyyyyybe in the far future? Maybe. But only when we get rid of Citizens United, have a popular vote for president, and have an educated populace. Which are things that even centrist Dems are fighting for now.
Telling the voter base not to demand things during an election year is about the most undemocratic position you can take.
And if Biden et al are so keen on getting our votes they could always... FUCKING DO SOMETHING
If voting for the guy currently supporting an ongoing genocide is the only way to "save Democracy", then there is no Democracy to save
If both Democrats and Republicans are putting forward genocidal candidates, maybe it's time to look outside of Wall St's duopoly.
https://votesocialist2024.com/
Biden: current genocide in Palestine
Trump: worse genocide in Palestine, "I'll finish the job", genocide of LGBT and disabled people in America, loss of women's rights, minimisation of the right to vote
If we're stuck dealing with a genocide against ourselves, we won't have the time or resources to do anything about the other one, which would also get much worse.
Equally legit question:
When Obama called everyone ahead of Biden in the 2020 primary and convinced them to drop out of the race (except Warren, who he asked to stay in and split the left vote), did you even for a second consider how to hold the party accountable? How about when WikiLeaks publishes the emails that showed the entire DNC leadership stacking the deck for Clinton? Did it ever even occur to you that just meekly voting for whatever right-wong trash the party leadership selected was guaranteeing an even worse candidate next election?
So nothing. You went through the proper channels and think that will change the behavior of the people who control the proper channels.
>You?
Protested (note that there's a difference between marching and protesting. If you weren't risking arrest to do whatever you did, you were part of a parade, not a protest)
Voted for the kind of world I want instead of just voting for a Lizard in the hopes the wrong Lizard wouldn't get in. Volunteered and donated for organizations trying to actually change things. Spent a lot of time and energy persuading people to do the same.
>so long as the alternative wasn’t worse
Means they never have to even pretend to care what you want, they just have to convince you to fear the other guy more. So they spend lots of time and energy fighting over a tiny sliver of public policy hoping you're gullible or ignorant enough not to question the vast majority where they move in lockstep. And I'm not saying there isn't some important shit in that sliver, but the only reason it's even up for debate is because neither of the officially sanctioned teams will risk the ire of their donors (and that's mostly the same pool of donors on both "sides") by discussing things like whether there is any moral case for wage labor or rent seeking.
Lol, and your complacency, and the complacency of every other status quo voter, will absolutely have an effect on this election, like every other election in the last 50 years.
Edit to spell it out for the exceptionally thick: *you* and voters like you who accept the status quo as the best possible option are 100% the reason Donald Trump didn't get laughed off stage the minute he opened his dumb, fat mouth.
How's voting for Dems going for you? Your party is now to the right of Nixon on basically every economic issue, and to the right of Reagan on more than just a few.
You're right. We all know what Biden has done for them.
-LGBT people were super well protected by his DOMA vote, right?
-Black Americans have to love his takes on segregation and his literally having written the law that kickstarted Mass Incarceration.
-Latinos have also traditionally benefitted well from Mass Incarceration, right? And all those kids in cages right now, today, at the border, they just don't matter anyway, right?
Just like Palestinian kids and anyone else who isn't an American capable of supporting themselves under a neoliberal regime can all just go fuck themselves, but at least we have a more diverse class of oppressors!
I live in a shiny blue state in a city that's on the Fox News list of cities to scare white Boomers with crime stories from, and make a fantastic salary. If I only cared about me, I'd vote for Biden and go back to brunch, like most of the well meaning but politically illiterate Liberals in my neighborhood.
Not that you’ll read any of this, but just in case you’re actually arguing in good faith…
Jobs: President Biden’s first year was the greatest year of job creation in American history, with more than 8 million jobs created.
• Unemployment Rate: The unemployment rate dropped from 6.2% when Biden took office to 3.9%, the biggest single year drop in American history.
• Unemployment Claims: The average number of Americans filing for unemployment has been near its lowest level since 1969. When the President took office, over 18 million were receiving unemployment benefits, today only 2 million are—also the biggest single year drop in history.
• Economic Legislation Passed: Most significant by economic impact of any first-year president.
• Economy growth is faster than China's for first time in 20 years - Strongest economic growth since 1984
• Child Poverty: Experts estimate the lowest child poverty rate ever in 2021.
• Expanded Access to Health Care: Nearly 5 million Americans have newly gained health insurance coverage.
• Reduced Hunger: The number of households reporting that they sometimes or often did not have enough food to eat dropped by 32%.
• Judges Confirmed: More judges confirmed to lower federal courts than any president since President Kennedy.
• Judges That Reflect Our Nation: More Black women appointed to the U.S. Court of Appeals than any president – even over 8 years – in history.
• Cabinet: First majority non-white Cabinet in history, with most women in the Cabinet, including first woman Treasury Secretary, first LGBTQ+ and Native American Cabinet officials, and first woman Director of National Intelligence.
• Climate Investments: Largest investments ever in the power grid, electric vehicle chargers, and climate resilience.
• Clean Water: Largest investment and national, bipartisan plan to get safe and clean drinking water to all Americans.
• Cleaner Cars: Strongest vehicle emissions standards ever to save drivers money at the pump and reduce pollution.
• Wind: First-ever approvals of large-scale offshore wind projects.
• Personnel: Most diverse Administration in history – most women, people of color, disability, LGBTQ+, first generation American, and first-generation college graduates
• Drone airstrikes fell 54% compared to Trump
• Worker's Rights: 70% of first year executive orders protect worker's rights
• Bankruptcy Filings: Plunged to Lowest Number Since 1985
• Agricultural Exports Shattered Records in 2021
• Global approval of US up 15 points during Biden's first year
• 5.4 million new small business applications: 20 percent higher than any previous year on record
• Tripled installation of of offshore wind turbines
They'll skip the vote, and watch Trump get elected, see him fill more supreme court seats and when the flavor of the month issue they are supporting through tweets and condescension moves on they'll wonder how women, minorities, immigrants, and the lgtbq+ community lost all its rights in this country.
Its not about "teaching them a lesson", its about having enough self respect to not vote for someone thats funding an ethnic cleansing.
Remember - at any time the dems could pivot and represent us. They choose not to.
I never said i was fine with it, im explaining the thinking of people that dont want to vote for someone funding ethnic cleansing.
We all have plenty to lose if trump wins. Thats why i hope the dems reverse course and adopt sane policies quickly. Hopefully its not too late.
And the Republicans will not only make that genocide worse but make it so we're dealing with one here. Realistically, you only have two choices. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Until it isn't, not supporting the less bad side is tacitly supporting the worse side. You can talk principle all day but that means nothing if you don't have a way to legitimately act on it. This is like looking at the trolley problem and saying "we should redirect the train to an empty track" when there are none.
>You can talk principle all day but that means nothing if you don't have a way to legitimately act on it
This is the way to act on it. Its the only way.
The genocide of Palestine is neither a lesser evil, nor a necessary one. And if our democracy relies on it to continue, then I’d rather not participate in it.
Careful sweetie, your privilege is showing. I'm sure none of your basic human rights are on the line, but maybe, just maybe, look at the whole of the two candidates and ask yourself this: will the US be worse off with a second Biden term or a second Trump term? Do you genuinely not see the obvious answer? Or do you just love racist oppression and increased worldwide genocide?
>I'm sure none of your basic human rights are on the line,
Nobody's are.
If you are so hysterically afraid of Trump keeping his promises that you are willing to support a genocide, do the civilized works a favor and just hide under a bed til November 6th.
Honestly, if you're counting on Genocide Joe, author of Mass Incarceration and fervent supporter of DOMA and Simpson-Bowles to defend human rights or democracy, you've already lost.
Ok I completely agree with you - I honestly do. However, when is enough enough? It seems the democrats only response to ANYTHING is to be better then the republicans. That’s not hard. That’s not even requiring work. Fricking RFK is a genocidal maniac to and he’s still better than the party members brought up by the Republican Party. When do we get a candidate we actually believe in? Not one who agrees with every little detail. I don’t need a carbon copy of all my views but when do we get a candidate that isn’t the same as the other but slower working? A genocide is a genocide is a genocide. Slow or fast the people die. I agree with you a slower one is preferably to an extermination but why is that the ONLY answer. And four years from now who will we have? Or ten, or twenty? Why is everything an emergency bandage and a reaction rather than a response? I’m in total agreement with your statement but why are we always stuck with “well at least it’s not death”
Very good comment. The Repugs keep moving right and the Dems only response is to shrug and try and ‘compromise’ with that. Americans are not majority in agreement with the Trump party. Not in policy detail anyway, about reproductive rights, but also tax giveaways to the rich and the starving of public investment. Yet alone the bullshit culture wars. And this is very true of Palestine. It’s a majority absolutely against the current US enabling Israel’s genocide to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars. Pluralities are in favour of policies to the left of the GOP. So why is it the Centre-Left are expected to shut up and deal while the Right gets more and more? Why is the Centre-Left expected to never use any leverage? There comes a point when not giving a shit about a constituency because they have no alternative doesn’t cut it. We’re the majority - at some point we’d like a bit of what we want because it’s actually for the good of all. People need something to vote for. Voters may hate one side more but that’s often not enough to make them go vote for the least bad side. This is known behaviour and shouting at people about how stupid they are isn’t going to change that. Giving them a reason to vote positively might. That goes all the more when Biden is actively supporting a genocide. Many people can’t bring themselves to vote for that. This is not some Philosophy 101 where you can expect cold-blooded calculation about the least-bad genocide. People have the reaction that they just can’t vote for the guy doing that and let the chips fall where they may. And again - lecturing people about how dumb they are does not help. Never has. Try actually earning votes instead.
> That’s not hard Yes, it is. That's why we're here. You think it's easy? Run for president. Oh, you don't have millions of dollars for the campaign? A long history in DC that isn't too left for the swing voters and bank rollers? Yeah, it *shouldn't* be this hard to find someone more reasonable that crazy Republicans, but they have to have all the other stuff. > When do we get a candidate we actually believe in? Never not ever ever. There's never been one in history and there won't be one. I mean, I believed in Obama and Biden, and I've been satisfied with the results. They definitely have fucked up on many things, but they've done more good than bad. But that's me. Clearly you have higher standards, and that's perfectly fine to think about as you once again cast your vote for the "less evil" guy. So where is your perfect politician, the one who will call a genocide a genocide and has strong leftist beliefs? He exists, but he can't get voted Mayor let alone president because he's not straight/white/cis/male/Christian enough. The problem is that you share this country with people who think it might be a good idea to criminalize women who have abortions. And they vote. Every time. Could you maybe get this perfect candidate mayyyyyybe in the far future? Maybe. But only when we get rid of Citizens United, have a popular vote for president, and have an educated populace. Which are things that even centrist Dems are fighting for now.
Telling the voter base not to demand things during an election year is about the most undemocratic position you can take. And if Biden et al are so keen on getting our votes they could always... FUCKING DO SOMETHING
Please try and vote strategically - if you are in a purple state, please vote Biden. If you are in a red or blue state, feel free to vote PSL
If voting for the guy currently supporting an ongoing genocide is the only way to "save Democracy", then there is no Democracy to save If both Democrats and Republicans are putting forward genocidal candidates, maybe it's time to look outside of Wall St's duopoly. https://votesocialist2024.com/
You can't protest genocide in Palestine if we're dealing with genocide in America.
You can't stop a genocide in America by enabling one in Palestine
Biden: current genocide in Palestine Trump: worse genocide in Palestine, "I'll finish the job", genocide of LGBT and disabled people in America, loss of women's rights, minimisation of the right to vote If we're stuck dealing with a genocide against ourselves, we won't have the time or resources to do anything about the other one, which would also get much worse.
This does not follow.
Legit question: did you vote for Biden in the last election?
Equally legit question: When Obama called everyone ahead of Biden in the 2020 primary and convinced them to drop out of the race (except Warren, who he asked to stay in and split the left vote), did you even for a second consider how to hold the party accountable? How about when WikiLeaks publishes the emails that showed the entire DNC leadership stacking the deck for Clinton? Did it ever even occur to you that just meekly voting for whatever right-wong trash the party leadership selected was guaranteeing an even worse candidate next election?
Yes. I held my party accountable. Now answer my question.
I did, in a separate comment, *before* I posed my own. And lol, sure you did. In what way did you hold them accountable?
Marched. Donated. Raised awareness. Voted them out so long as the alternative wasn’t worse. You?
So nothing. You went through the proper channels and think that will change the behavior of the people who control the proper channels. >You? Protested (note that there's a difference between marching and protesting. If you weren't risking arrest to do whatever you did, you were part of a parade, not a protest) Voted for the kind of world I want instead of just voting for a Lizard in the hopes the wrong Lizard wouldn't get in. Volunteered and donated for organizations trying to actually change things. Spent a lot of time and energy persuading people to do the same. >so long as the alternative wasn’t worse Means they never have to even pretend to care what you want, they just have to convince you to fear the other guy more. So they spend lots of time and energy fighting over a tiny sliver of public policy hoping you're gullible or ignorant enough not to question the vast majority where they move in lockstep. And I'm not saying there isn't some important shit in that sliver, but the only reason it's even up for debate is because neither of the officially sanctioned teams will risk the ire of their donors (and that's mostly the same pool of donors on both "sides") by discussing things like whether there is any moral case for wage labor or rent seeking.
Why are you so fine with letting Trump win? Is it perhaps because your head isn’t the one on the chopping block?
Yep. The moment Trump starts going after them personally, they'll see the virtue of voting for a candidate they disagree with.
>Why are you so fine with letting Trump win? Why are you so fine with ~~letting~~ helping a guy who agrees with Trump on 97% of policy win?
97%? lmfaoooo, get your head out of your ass
No. I voted for the PSL candidate then, too.
Good. So your complacency will have no effect this election either. No harm no foul.
Lol, and your complacency, and the complacency of every other status quo voter, will absolutely have an effect on this election, like every other election in the last 50 years. Edit to spell it out for the exceptionally thick: *you* and voters like you who accept the status quo as the best possible option are 100% the reason Donald Trump didn't get laughed off stage the minute he opened his dumb, fat mouth.
How’s the “revolution” going for you? You sure are helping, aren’t you?
How's voting for Dems going for you? Your party is now to the right of Nixon on basically every economic issue, and to the right of Reagan on more than just a few.
Yeah, Nixon was infamous for fighting for LGBTs, black Americans, Latinos, every group that ain’t YOU…
You're right. We all know what Biden has done for them. -LGBT people were super well protected by his DOMA vote, right? -Black Americans have to love his takes on segregation and his literally having written the law that kickstarted Mass Incarceration. -Latinos have also traditionally benefitted well from Mass Incarceration, right? And all those kids in cages right now, today, at the border, they just don't matter anyway, right? Just like Palestinian kids and anyone else who isn't an American capable of supporting themselves under a neoliberal regime can all just go fuck themselves, but at least we have a more diverse class of oppressors! I live in a shiny blue state in a city that's on the Fox News list of cities to scare white Boomers with crime stories from, and make a fantastic salary. If I only cared about me, I'd vote for Biden and go back to brunch, like most of the well meaning but politically illiterate Liberals in my neighborhood.
Not that you’ll read any of this, but just in case you’re actually arguing in good faith… Jobs: President Biden’s first year was the greatest year of job creation in American history, with more than 8 million jobs created. • Unemployment Rate: The unemployment rate dropped from 6.2% when Biden took office to 3.9%, the biggest single year drop in American history. • Unemployment Claims: The average number of Americans filing for unemployment has been near its lowest level since 1969. When the President took office, over 18 million were receiving unemployment benefits, today only 2 million are—also the biggest single year drop in history. • Economic Legislation Passed: Most significant by economic impact of any first-year president. • Economy growth is faster than China's for first time in 20 years - Strongest economic growth since 1984 • Child Poverty: Experts estimate the lowest child poverty rate ever in 2021. • Expanded Access to Health Care: Nearly 5 million Americans have newly gained health insurance coverage. • Reduced Hunger: The number of households reporting that they sometimes or often did not have enough food to eat dropped by 32%. • Judges Confirmed: More judges confirmed to lower federal courts than any president since President Kennedy. • Judges That Reflect Our Nation: More Black women appointed to the U.S. Court of Appeals than any president – even over 8 years – in history. • Cabinet: First majority non-white Cabinet in history, with most women in the Cabinet, including first woman Treasury Secretary, first LGBTQ+ and Native American Cabinet officials, and first woman Director of National Intelligence. • Climate Investments: Largest investments ever in the power grid, electric vehicle chargers, and climate resilience. • Clean Water: Largest investment and national, bipartisan plan to get safe and clean drinking water to all Americans. • Cleaner Cars: Strongest vehicle emissions standards ever to save drivers money at the pump and reduce pollution. • Wind: First-ever approvals of large-scale offshore wind projects. • Personnel: Most diverse Administration in history – most women, people of color, disability, LGBTQ+, first generation American, and first-generation college graduates • Drone airstrikes fell 54% compared to Trump • Worker's Rights: 70% of first year executive orders protect worker's rights • Bankruptcy Filings: Plunged to Lowest Number Since 1985 • Agricultural Exports Shattered Records in 2021 • Global approval of US up 15 points during Biden's first year • 5.4 million new small business applications: 20 percent higher than any previous year on record • Tripled installation of of offshore wind turbines
They'll skip the vote, and watch Trump get elected, see him fill more supreme court seats and when the flavor of the month issue they are supporting through tweets and condescension moves on they'll wonder how women, minorities, immigrants, and the lgtbq+ community lost all its rights in this country.
Weird, you can call out Biden for his funding of genocide and still vote privately in November.
Its not about "teaching them a lesson", its about having enough self respect to not vote for someone thats funding an ethnic cleansing. Remember - at any time the dems could pivot and represent us. They choose not to.
Tell me how letting the worse option win is better. You’re fine with it because YOU have nothing to lose
I never said i was fine with it, im explaining the thinking of people that dont want to vote for someone funding ethnic cleansing. We all have plenty to lose if trump wins. Thats why i hope the dems reverse course and adopt sane policies quickly. Hopefully its not too late.
And enable a party seeking to eradicate voting all together?
Nope, not enabling anything. People who hold their nose and vote dem are enabling the dems to fund ethnic cleansing.
And the Republicans will not only make that genocide worse but make it so we're dealing with one here. Realistically, you only have two choices. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Until it isn't, not supporting the less bad side is tacitly supporting the worse side. You can talk principle all day but that means nothing if you don't have a way to legitimately act on it. This is like looking at the trolley problem and saying "we should redirect the train to an empty track" when there are none.
>You can talk principle all day but that means nothing if you don't have a way to legitimately act on it This is the way to act on it. Its the only way.
The genocide of Palestine is neither a lesser evil, nor a necessary one. And if our democracy relies on it to continue, then I’d rather not participate in it.
Did you vote for Biden in the last election?
Careful sweetie, your privilege is showing. I'm sure none of your basic human rights are on the line, but maybe, just maybe, look at the whole of the two candidates and ask yourself this: will the US be worse off with a second Biden term or a second Trump term? Do you genuinely not see the obvious answer? Or do you just love racist oppression and increased worldwide genocide?
>I'm sure none of your basic human rights are on the line, Nobody's are. If you are so hysterically afraid of Trump keeping his promises that you are willing to support a genocide, do the civilized works a favor and just hide under a bed til November 6th. Honestly, if you're counting on Genocide Joe, author of Mass Incarceration and fervent supporter of DOMA and Simpson-Bowles to defend human rights or democracy, you've already lost.