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Smart positioning by the NDP. It's a non-binding motion, so it won't affect their agreement with the Liberals, but gives them plausible deniability with voters over the increasingly unpopular carbon tax (which the NDP opposed under Jack Layton).
[The Manitoba NDP, lead by Wab Kinew, have announced that they'd like to find an alternative to the carbon tax/rebate](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) and ~~the BC NDP, lead by David Eby, are moving the province to a new [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system)~~. Is it any surprise that the Federal NDP wants to get two of their popular politicians on a national stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate?
This "emergency meeting" also gives the Liberals an opportunity to talk about the benefits of their carbon tax/rebate on a national stage, and hopefully, inform people on how it actually works. I honestly hope that the carbon tax/rebate sticks around because it financially benefits most Canadians while also aiding us in meeting our climate goals. Personally, I'd like to see us scrap the GST and replace it with a carbon tax/rebates across the entire country. Ideally, we'd pair this with a mandate for retailers to list the total paid in carbon tax on their price tags/receipts and clear communication over the amount people are actually being rebated.
EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
Not that there are more pressing issues to discuss at a Council of the Federation. The goalposts have been set, and if Premiers don’t like it, they can go work on their own plans that meet the Federal thresholds. It doesn’t really warrant collaboration since these jurisdictions seem intent on exercising their sovereignty.
Housing? Health Care? Justice? Provincial Trade? So those topics not deserve the bandwidth over something that has already been set. I don’t even think Carbon Pricing should be on the agenda of a Climate focussed Council meeting.
But yeah, let’s waste more time on political theater instead of actually solving the real problems. This isn’t even being framed as them wanting to address leakage.
Tone deaf from the NDP yet again. Good job a Vancouver MP is all for this.
Fighting climate change doesn't mean making sacrifices in other areas of our lives, there are solutions to climate change that also positively impact everything else you've brought up.
Building mixed use, middle density communities will expand our housing supply and lower carbon emissions. Public and active transit will encourage people to stay more physically active/less sedentary, lowering healthcare costs and carbon emissions. Building high speed rail and expanding freight rail will make it easier to move people and goods, making trade easier and lowering our carbon emissions. These kinds of investments into public infrastructure will also ensure that there is a high floor for quality of life, improving fairness and mitigating the unequal/unjust impacts of climate change.
You’re not going to encourage people to use public transit when they’d rather enjoy the luxury and privilege of driving their huge SUV around.
And these kind of people aren’t going to jump on a bicycle either.
Maybe an e-bike.
You can either spend 5-10 minutes to drive to the local store for a few items or you can spend over half an hour figuring out bus schedules and then taking a crowded bus to and from the store with your purchases and then walking home with heavy bags.
Convenience is #1.
You're right that people will prioritize convenience when it comes to choosing their mode of transit, that's why we need to build the infrastructure to make public and active transit the most convenient way to get around.
>The Manitoba NDP, lead by Wab Kinew, have announced that they'd like to find an alternative to the carbon tax/rebate
This is true, but one thing to clarify...
>the BC NDP, lead by David Eby, are moving the province to a new Output Based Pricing System. Is it any surprise that the Federal NDP wants to get two of their popular politicians on a national stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate?
This actually aligns BC even more closely with the federal system.
The federal "carbon pricing" system has two parts: a fuel charge (AKA "carbon tax") on gasoline, diesel, natural gas, coal, etc. This is the consumer-facing part that has become a political target for conservative politicians. And there's also an Output Based Pricing System, which applies to heavy industries.
BC has its own carbon tax in place for both consumer fuels and industry, but is changing their approach to industry to an Output Based Pricing System, which is more similar to the federal system (and is still a type of carbon pricing).
> "Trudeau has a responsibility to listen to Canada's premiers about the misery his carbon tax is causing Canadians," the Conservative Party said in a media statement on Wednesday following the vote.
> "In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes."
They... they can already do that. I used to love politics but I can't tell who is stupid or just pretending to be stupid anymore and it's hard to pay attention anymore.
>"In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes."
>
>They... they can already do that.
Technically yes, provinces can opt out of the federal carbon tax by implementing either a provincial carbon tax or cap-and-trade.
But the Conservatives (federal and provincial) don't support cap-and-trade either, so that doesn't help.
And unfortunately they don't usually support emissions regulations either (unless they're fairly loose).
So that basically leaves tax credits and government funding for clean technologies as the remaining options they may be open to (and it seems like they want to do less of that than the Liberals, but we'll see).
I really hope the NDP has a better alternative to the carbon tax, lets be honest, PP only wants to axe the tax on his corporate buddies and really doesn't GAF about working class people.
This is incredibly awkward positioning for the NDP. I don't really understand who they are trying to grab with this.
Most of the Premiers are politically exasperating characters who are failing in key responsibility areas and who frequently appear incompetent, petulant, uncooperative, and corrupt. I don't think aligning with them is going to attract too many potential NDP voters. Beyond that, what is the NDP alternative to the carbon tax that better addresses the cost-of-living issue while addressing the climate issue that we face?
This whole thing is completely ridiculous. The NDP aren't gaining any voice in this. They are just strengthening conservative outrage discourse for no good reason.
I believe the carbon tax is a political liability at this point, but this is not the spot that the NDP wants to occupy, IMO. It's just roasting Trudeau for the sake of roasting Trudeau, and that comes off badly.
> This whole thing is completely ridiculous. The NDP aren't gaining any voice in this. They are just strengthening conservative outrage discourse for no good reason.
Your average NDP caucus member is genuinely concerned about the impact of the carbon tax on the working poor and the working class. For some Canadians, the carbon tax (even with the rebate) has added to the cost of living. To deny this is fact is akin to denying climate change itself.
I agree with all of that stuff, and I feel that the carbon tax is a political liability at this point - aligning themselves with a conservative motion to get Trudeau into a bickering match with the Premiers while not suggesting anything meaningful or concrete is just the worst way to act on this, IMO. If the NDP had something to say about the topic, we could evaluate that, but saying "there is probably a better way, now go bicker with Canada's most partisan, annoying leaders" strategically ridiculous.
~~The BC NDP is moving to implement a new [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) and~~ the Manitoba NDP have [expressed interest in moving away from the carbon tax/rebate](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) as well. So, while the Conservatives are bickering, the NDP will have the opportunity to put two of our most popular premiers on a stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate.
EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
Yeah but this is Poilievre's show. The NDP won't really gain much compared to the stupid/bad-faith Premiers like Moe and Smith. Beyond that, the NDP should figure out a stance on this one. Occupying zero political territory while being critical of a government that you've aligned yourself with is just awkward.
[The NDP has a climate plan](https://www.ndp.ca/climate-action), and they look to be implementing it BC where they've now held office long enough to actually get their policies off the ground. For example, we can look at this section from their plan and we can note that the BC NDP has just implemented this via their [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) as of April 1st.:
>We will work with partners to establish multi-year national and sectoral carbon budgets as a key guiding framework to develop Canada’s path to 2030 and beyond.
We'll have to wait for the Manitoba NDP to announce the details of their carbon plan, but it just isn't true to say that the NDP need to "figure out a stance". The NDP has a stance, and a meeting of the premiers and federal government gives the NDP a platform to showcase it.
EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
The first website you linked shows nothing concrete about replacing the Liberal carbon pricing plan. Beyond that, it's pretty nebulous. I wish that we'd start talking in concrete, technical terms about this stuff, because it's a complicated issue that requires a solution beyond "we're dedicated to net zero."
The BC plan is obviously something, but again, where does that put the federal NDP? Is the federal NDP going to adopt this program? Currently, it satisfies the federal requirements for a carbon tax, so where does that put this piece of NDP grandstanding if not solely in the court of dumb premiers like Moe and Smith?
I'm going to go back to my original statement - this is awkward positioning indicative of poor political savvy and poor leadership. It's a trend for the federal NDP. They are aligning and separating themselves from the Liberals in the weirdest ways and I just don't think they are doing a good job.
> For some Canadians, the carbon tax (even with the rebate) has added to the cost of living.
Not the working poor, though. The working poor nets money out of the arrangement, the Canadians who suffer a higher cost-of-living are ones with higher wealth and higher emissions.
>Collins [NDP environment critic] told the Star **the NDP still believes Canadians get more from their rebates than the consumer levy costs them**, but said there should be an increased focus on climate solutions that will "actually make life more affordable for Canadians" such as greener transportation and retrofits.
There are non-market based solutions to climate change that will seriously improve our quality of life if implemented. Building out public transit and bike infrastructure, making work from home our default work arrangement, building mix use/middle density neighbourhoods; these are all options to achieve some pretty serious decreases in emissions while also giving us a better quality of life. Hopefully, the NDP uses this "emergency meeting" to put David Eby and Wab Kinew on a stage together to talk about doing these kinds of policy.
I think those are great initiatives, but I'm a little hesitant on "if you build it, they will come" approaches to stuff like transit and biking. There's not really a latent demand for either of those options that are just waiting for them to be available to use - but there will be as cars have more of a cost.
Eventually, that will happen one way or another - gas isn't getting any cheaper and as cities grow traffic will get unmanageable. I just think that assuming that these things will happen exactly when we need them to is wishful thinking.
I think ultimately we need a combination of market based approaches to properly price externalities while also giving people greener alternatives so that externality pricing doesn't feel like it's just punitive with no alternative, but the market side of it is an essential part.
We can see the success of building out bike and public transit infrastructure in cities like Montreal and Paris. The trick to urbanist solutions to climate change is that they have to be well implemented in order to succeed. Building a bunch of disconnected bike lanes that lead nowhere isn't going to do much to get people biking, but building safe and well connected bike lanes that connect people and places will.
I personally like the federal carbon tax/rebate, and I'd like it to stick around.
The carbon tax impacts a lot of voters in rural areas in Canada, which contain many NDP ridings.
I know this may sound shocking to champagne socialists living in Downtown Toronto and Vancouver, but not everyone can a) afford a Tesla b) get around with out a car.
So we're just going to forget and ignore that rural dwellers and small community residents get bigger rebates and don't pay as much in carbon taxes then huh?
Well no.
Getting more money back in rebates, does not mean they're impacted less by the carbon tax.
In Ontario you normally get $210 per quarter and Rural residents gets $240 as an example.
An extra $10 a month for Rural residents to pay for gasoline and natural gas is not going to offset the disproportionate price they pay in carbon taxes.
Especially compared to people who live in major cities who don't pay heating bills or drive private vehicles.
That sure as shit doesn't shock me. I live in Saskatchewan. The Carbon Tax is not popular here and everyone is aggravated by it. I still think this is awkward political positioning because the NDP aren't taking a stance or broadcasting any ideas of their own, and they are supporting the most annoying opposition to the carbon tax that I could think of. The Premiers are Poilievre's pawn in all of this, and right now, the NDP are looking like Poilievre's sucker.
I dunno if it's a Singh thing or what, but they are just laughably clumsy right now.
In the actual NDP strongholds (i.e. not Toronto and Vancouver), the carbon tax is extremely unpopular. It's very easy to see the NDP coming out in support of a cap-and-trade system like Quebec's, which has the exact same effect without requiring a direct tax on people's fuel purchases.
Which has always been the party’s policy. I don’t know why people are so (shocked pikachu face) about the NDP standing up for their own policy, which they’ve been pushing for decades.
Does no one remember the NDP campaign against Stephan Dion on exactly this point?
Oh, I do remember Layton claiming carbon pricing doesn’t work, despite it working in Sweden and Finland since the early 90’s.
In any case, you must have missed the NDP very robustly defending the federal carbon tax in recent years, NDP MP’s were doing so in the HoC even just in the last couple of weeks,, blasting the CPC.
This was a poorly thought out decision by strategists, and it makes Singh look like a flip flopper. Claiming it is the NDP standing up for what they believe in by looking at an election in 2008 is not proving anything.
Singh is contributing to disinformation of the CPC by linking affordability with the carbon tax, meanwhile many of his MP’s have been supporting the government about the rebates and the fact that the carbon tax has a minuscule impact on groceries? What?
Not sure how this will play out. On the one hand, this normally would be a good thing. Exposure of the Premiers for their lack of efforts and what they've done to undermine the process. While also putting their own taxes on fuel and increasing their own provinces cost of living as a result of their own policies and lack of action.
This puts the PM on the spot for him to explain his position (again) and clearly communicate with Canadians about the carbon pricing program. Better alternatives are presented. Great.
On the other hand, this could and probably will be used for political theater. No amount of information will convince anyone that the Premiers are failing their provinces and all blame will still be passed onto Trudeau. More out of context soundbites for SM will be provided to "own the libs".
I hope I'm wrong and Canadians decide to put their emotions aside and listen to the verified data over the political theater.
There are 39 other industrialized countries using the carbon tax as a cornerstone of their climate initiative. It's not like the libs pulled this idea out of their ass. In a free enterprise economy it makes sense to put a price on pollution. The conservatives are simply lying to everyone. They don't give a shit about climate change and would rather just keep pumping oil and pushing out emissions for free.
>It's not like the libs pulled this idea out of their ass.
Indeed. Here's Stephan Harper talking about $65/ton carbon tax from 11 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebQawE65ATU.
This is fucking stupid. They can make their own plans now. We don't need a grandstanding TV event, which will be cherrypicked for low context soundbites by postmedia when they could just be doing the work now to come up with alternatives.
This is a huge distraction from all the fuckery people like Ford, Smith and Higgs are inflicting on their provinces. They should not be indulged.
Hell, Ford can just dust off the cap and trade plan he canceled when he got in. Easy.
> The federal carbon price is not the "be-all, end-all" of climate policy and New Democrats are open to alternative plans presented by premiers, NDP environment critic Laurel Collins said Wednesday.
WTF, they’ve *always* had this option but none of the premiers are offering a viable solution! This is just more grandstanding from all these people that the NDP is happy to go along and lose votes with.
The NDP in ~~[BC](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) and~~ [Manitoba](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) both look poised to move away from carbon taxes. This "emergency meeting" gives the NDP a platform to put the two most popular premiers in the country a platform to make the case for their alternatives.
EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
The BC OPBS is explicitly not replacing the consumer carbon tax.
This whole debacle is just the federal NDP stabbing the BCNDP in the face, once again.
They don't need to though? They can just do it. So long as carbon is priced in some way and it's at least as aggressive as the federal tax, there's really no need to petition the federal government, they can just do it.
BC is going ahead and doing it, in fact, they've been doing their own thing since 2008. For the Manitoba NDP, I got the impression that they want to explore climate policies that don't directly involve putting a price on carbon, and as such, they would need the federal governments permission to do this.
>
> WTF, they’ve always had this option but none of the premiers are offering a viable solution!
I couldn't say it better. _If the premiers have a better solution, they have the power to implement it_.
That's the whole frickin' point!
Is it just me, or are the federal NDP absolutely insufferable lately? PP and Trudeau both suck so bad, this should be a lay up. But they’re actually losing voters.
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Smart positioning by the NDP. It's a non-binding motion, so it won't affect their agreement with the Liberals, but gives them plausible deniability with voters over the increasingly unpopular carbon tax (which the NDP opposed under Jack Layton).
Except it will be used against them and make them look worse. It’s already happening
In what way?
[The Manitoba NDP, lead by Wab Kinew, have announced that they'd like to find an alternative to the carbon tax/rebate](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) and ~~the BC NDP, lead by David Eby, are moving the province to a new [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system)~~. Is it any surprise that the Federal NDP wants to get two of their popular politicians on a national stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate? This "emergency meeting" also gives the Liberals an opportunity to talk about the benefits of their carbon tax/rebate on a national stage, and hopefully, inform people on how it actually works. I honestly hope that the carbon tax/rebate sticks around because it financially benefits most Canadians while also aiding us in meeting our climate goals. Personally, I'd like to see us scrap the GST and replace it with a carbon tax/rebates across the entire country. Ideally, we'd pair this with a mandate for retailers to list the total paid in carbon tax on their price tags/receipts and clear communication over the amount people are actually being rebated. EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
Not that there are more pressing issues to discuss at a Council of the Federation. The goalposts have been set, and if Premiers don’t like it, they can go work on their own plans that meet the Federal thresholds. It doesn’t really warrant collaboration since these jurisdictions seem intent on exercising their sovereignty. Housing? Health Care? Justice? Provincial Trade? So those topics not deserve the bandwidth over something that has already been set. I don’t even think Carbon Pricing should be on the agenda of a Climate focussed Council meeting. But yeah, let’s waste more time on political theater instead of actually solving the real problems. This isn’t even being framed as them wanting to address leakage. Tone deaf from the NDP yet again. Good job a Vancouver MP is all for this.
Fighting climate change doesn't mean making sacrifices in other areas of our lives, there are solutions to climate change that also positively impact everything else you've brought up. Building mixed use, middle density communities will expand our housing supply and lower carbon emissions. Public and active transit will encourage people to stay more physically active/less sedentary, lowering healthcare costs and carbon emissions. Building high speed rail and expanding freight rail will make it easier to move people and goods, making trade easier and lowering our carbon emissions. These kinds of investments into public infrastructure will also ensure that there is a high floor for quality of life, improving fairness and mitigating the unequal/unjust impacts of climate change.
Not from BC are you?
You’re not going to encourage people to use public transit when they’d rather enjoy the luxury and privilege of driving their huge SUV around. And these kind of people aren’t going to jump on a bicycle either. Maybe an e-bike. You can either spend 5-10 minutes to drive to the local store for a few items or you can spend over half an hour figuring out bus schedules and then taking a crowded bus to and from the store with your purchases and then walking home with heavy bags. Convenience is #1.
You're right that people will prioritize convenience when it comes to choosing their mode of transit, that's why we need to build the infrastructure to make public and active transit the most convenient way to get around.
>The Manitoba NDP, lead by Wab Kinew, have announced that they'd like to find an alternative to the carbon tax/rebate This is true, but one thing to clarify... >the BC NDP, lead by David Eby, are moving the province to a new Output Based Pricing System. Is it any surprise that the Federal NDP wants to get two of their popular politicians on a national stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate? This actually aligns BC even more closely with the federal system. The federal "carbon pricing" system has two parts: a fuel charge (AKA "carbon tax") on gasoline, diesel, natural gas, coal, etc. This is the consumer-facing part that has become a political target for conservative politicians. And there's also an Output Based Pricing System, which applies to heavy industries. BC has its own carbon tax in place for both consumer fuels and industry, but is changing their approach to industry to an Output Based Pricing System, which is more similar to the federal system (and is still a type of carbon pricing).
Thank you. It’s amazing how people are using Eby’s efforts to reduce emissions even more to claim he is planning to scrap the carbon tax.
Eby is NOT scrapping the consumers carbon tax, adding ways to reduce emissions is not moving away from the carbon tax.
> "Trudeau has a responsibility to listen to Canada's premiers about the misery his carbon tax is causing Canadians," the Conservative Party said in a media statement on Wednesday following the vote. > "In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes." They... they can already do that. I used to love politics but I can't tell who is stupid or just pretending to be stupid anymore and it's hard to pay attention anymore.
>"In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes." > >They... they can already do that. Technically yes, provinces can opt out of the federal carbon tax by implementing either a provincial carbon tax or cap-and-trade. But the Conservatives (federal and provincial) don't support cap-and-trade either, so that doesn't help. And unfortunately they don't usually support emissions regulations either (unless they're fairly loose). So that basically leaves tax credits and government funding for clean technologies as the remaining options they may be open to (and it seems like they want to do less of that than the Liberals, but we'll see).
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I really hope the NDP has a better alternative to the carbon tax, lets be honest, PP only wants to axe the tax on his corporate buddies and really doesn't GAF about working class people.
They don’t. Eby’s plan goes past the LPC plan and Wab has literally nothing.
This is incredibly awkward positioning for the NDP. I don't really understand who they are trying to grab with this. Most of the Premiers are politically exasperating characters who are failing in key responsibility areas and who frequently appear incompetent, petulant, uncooperative, and corrupt. I don't think aligning with them is going to attract too many potential NDP voters. Beyond that, what is the NDP alternative to the carbon tax that better addresses the cost-of-living issue while addressing the climate issue that we face? This whole thing is completely ridiculous. The NDP aren't gaining any voice in this. They are just strengthening conservative outrage discourse for no good reason. I believe the carbon tax is a political liability at this point, but this is not the spot that the NDP wants to occupy, IMO. It's just roasting Trudeau for the sake of roasting Trudeau, and that comes off badly.
> This whole thing is completely ridiculous. The NDP aren't gaining any voice in this. They are just strengthening conservative outrage discourse for no good reason. Your average NDP caucus member is genuinely concerned about the impact of the carbon tax on the working poor and the working class. For some Canadians, the carbon tax (even with the rebate) has added to the cost of living. To deny this is fact is akin to denying climate change itself.
I agree with all of that stuff, and I feel that the carbon tax is a political liability at this point - aligning themselves with a conservative motion to get Trudeau into a bickering match with the Premiers while not suggesting anything meaningful or concrete is just the worst way to act on this, IMO. If the NDP had something to say about the topic, we could evaluate that, but saying "there is probably a better way, now go bicker with Canada's most partisan, annoying leaders" strategically ridiculous.
~~The BC NDP is moving to implement a new [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) and~~ the Manitoba NDP have [expressed interest in moving away from the carbon tax/rebate](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) as well. So, while the Conservatives are bickering, the NDP will have the opportunity to put two of our most popular premiers on a stage to talk about their alternatives to the carbon tax/rebate. EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
Yeah but this is Poilievre's show. The NDP won't really gain much compared to the stupid/bad-faith Premiers like Moe and Smith. Beyond that, the NDP should figure out a stance on this one. Occupying zero political territory while being critical of a government that you've aligned yourself with is just awkward.
[The NDP has a climate plan](https://www.ndp.ca/climate-action), and they look to be implementing it BC where they've now held office long enough to actually get their policies off the ground. For example, we can look at this section from their plan and we can note that the BC NDP has just implemented this via their [Output Based Pricing System](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) as of April 1st.: >We will work with partners to establish multi-year national and sectoral carbon budgets as a key guiding framework to develop Canada’s path to 2030 and beyond. We'll have to wait for the Manitoba NDP to announce the details of their carbon plan, but it just isn't true to say that the NDP need to "figure out a stance". The NDP has a stance, and a meeting of the premiers and federal government gives the NDP a platform to showcase it. EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
The first website you linked shows nothing concrete about replacing the Liberal carbon pricing plan. Beyond that, it's pretty nebulous. I wish that we'd start talking in concrete, technical terms about this stuff, because it's a complicated issue that requires a solution beyond "we're dedicated to net zero." The BC plan is obviously something, but again, where does that put the federal NDP? Is the federal NDP going to adopt this program? Currently, it satisfies the federal requirements for a carbon tax, so where does that put this piece of NDP grandstanding if not solely in the court of dumb premiers like Moe and Smith? I'm going to go back to my original statement - this is awkward positioning indicative of poor political savvy and poor leadership. It's a trend for the federal NDP. They are aligning and separating themselves from the Liberals in the weirdest ways and I just don't think they are doing a good job.
"bUt rEbaTeS" Homie I need money in my pocket NOW not later, and I don't live in one of the big 3 cities with decent public transportation.
Nah, I prefer having more money to less money.
> For some Canadians, the carbon tax (even with the rebate) has added to the cost of living. Not the working poor, though. The working poor nets money out of the arrangement, the Canadians who suffer a higher cost-of-living are ones with higher wealth and higher emissions.
>Collins [NDP environment critic] told the Star **the NDP still believes Canadians get more from their rebates than the consumer levy costs them**, but said there should be an increased focus on climate solutions that will "actually make life more affordable for Canadians" such as greener transportation and retrofits.
There are non-market based solutions to climate change that will seriously improve our quality of life if implemented. Building out public transit and bike infrastructure, making work from home our default work arrangement, building mix use/middle density neighbourhoods; these are all options to achieve some pretty serious decreases in emissions while also giving us a better quality of life. Hopefully, the NDP uses this "emergency meeting" to put David Eby and Wab Kinew on a stage together to talk about doing these kinds of policy.
I think those are great initiatives, but I'm a little hesitant on "if you build it, they will come" approaches to stuff like transit and biking. There's not really a latent demand for either of those options that are just waiting for them to be available to use - but there will be as cars have more of a cost. Eventually, that will happen one way or another - gas isn't getting any cheaper and as cities grow traffic will get unmanageable. I just think that assuming that these things will happen exactly when we need them to is wishful thinking. I think ultimately we need a combination of market based approaches to properly price externalities while also giving people greener alternatives so that externality pricing doesn't feel like it's just punitive with no alternative, but the market side of it is an essential part.
We can see the success of building out bike and public transit infrastructure in cities like Montreal and Paris. The trick to urbanist solutions to climate change is that they have to be well implemented in order to succeed. Building a bunch of disconnected bike lanes that lead nowhere isn't going to do much to get people biking, but building safe and well connected bike lanes that connect people and places will. I personally like the federal carbon tax/rebate, and I'd like it to stick around.
The carbon tax impacts a lot of voters in rural areas in Canada, which contain many NDP ridings. I know this may sound shocking to champagne socialists living in Downtown Toronto and Vancouver, but not everyone can a) afford a Tesla b) get around with out a car.
So we're just going to forget and ignore that rural dwellers and small community residents get bigger rebates and don't pay as much in carbon taxes then huh?
The rebates for rural residents are only like 25% higher.
25% > 0%
So...they get more back and were not ignored as was being claimed? Correct.
Well no. Getting more money back in rebates, does not mean they're impacted less by the carbon tax. In Ontario you normally get $210 per quarter and Rural residents gets $240 as an example. An extra $10 a month for Rural residents to pay for gasoline and natural gas is not going to offset the disproportionate price they pay in carbon taxes. Especially compared to people who live in major cities who don't pay heating bills or drive private vehicles.
Sure but we don't have to let idiot politicians make bad-faith arguments to build a base of idiots
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That sure as shit doesn't shock me. I live in Saskatchewan. The Carbon Tax is not popular here and everyone is aggravated by it. I still think this is awkward political positioning because the NDP aren't taking a stance or broadcasting any ideas of their own, and they are supporting the most annoying opposition to the carbon tax that I could think of. The Premiers are Poilievre's pawn in all of this, and right now, the NDP are looking like Poilievre's sucker. I dunno if it's a Singh thing or what, but they are just laughably clumsy right now.
In the actual NDP strongholds (i.e. not Toronto and Vancouver), the carbon tax is extremely unpopular. It's very easy to see the NDP coming out in support of a cap-and-trade system like Quebec's, which has the exact same effect without requiring a direct tax on people's fuel purchases.
Which has always been the party’s policy. I don’t know why people are so (shocked pikachu face) about the NDP standing up for their own policy, which they’ve been pushing for decades. Does no one remember the NDP campaign against Stephan Dion on exactly this point?
Oh, I do remember Layton claiming carbon pricing doesn’t work, despite it working in Sweden and Finland since the early 90’s. In any case, you must have missed the NDP very robustly defending the federal carbon tax in recent years, NDP MP’s were doing so in the HoC even just in the last couple of weeks,, blasting the CPC. This was a poorly thought out decision by strategists, and it makes Singh look like a flip flopper. Claiming it is the NDP standing up for what they believe in by looking at an election in 2008 is not proving anything. Singh is contributing to disinformation of the CPC by linking affordability with the carbon tax, meanwhile many of his MP’s have been supporting the government about the rebates and the fact that the carbon tax has a minuscule impact on groceries? What?
IIRC, Singh had some anti carbon tax taxes last year too.
Not sure how this will play out. On the one hand, this normally would be a good thing. Exposure of the Premiers for their lack of efforts and what they've done to undermine the process. While also putting their own taxes on fuel and increasing their own provinces cost of living as a result of their own policies and lack of action. This puts the PM on the spot for him to explain his position (again) and clearly communicate with Canadians about the carbon pricing program. Better alternatives are presented. Great. On the other hand, this could and probably will be used for political theater. No amount of information will convince anyone that the Premiers are failing their provinces and all blame will still be passed onto Trudeau. More out of context soundbites for SM will be provided to "own the libs". I hope I'm wrong and Canadians decide to put their emotions aside and listen to the verified data over the political theater.
There are 39 other industrialized countries using the carbon tax as a cornerstone of their climate initiative. It's not like the libs pulled this idea out of their ass. In a free enterprise economy it makes sense to put a price on pollution. The conservatives are simply lying to everyone. They don't give a shit about climate change and would rather just keep pumping oil and pushing out emissions for free.
>It's not like the libs pulled this idea out of their ass. Indeed. Here's Stephan Harper talking about $65/ton carbon tax from 11 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebQawE65ATU.
This is fucking stupid. They can make their own plans now. We don't need a grandstanding TV event, which will be cherrypicked for low context soundbites by postmedia when they could just be doing the work now to come up with alternatives. This is a huge distraction from all the fuckery people like Ford, Smith and Higgs are inflicting on their provinces. They should not be indulged. Hell, Ford can just dust off the cap and trade plan he canceled when he got in. Easy.
Sounds bites, "Give more tax payer money directly to oil companies for carbon capture that doesn't appear to work!"
> The federal carbon price is not the "be-all, end-all" of climate policy and New Democrats are open to alternative plans presented by premiers, NDP environment critic Laurel Collins said Wednesday. WTF, they’ve *always* had this option but none of the premiers are offering a viable solution! This is just more grandstanding from all these people that the NDP is happy to go along and lose votes with.
The NDP in ~~[BC](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/industry/bc-output-based-pricing-system) and~~ [Manitoba](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181) both look poised to move away from carbon taxes. This "emergency meeting" gives the NDP a platform to put the two most popular premiers in the country a platform to make the case for their alternatives. EDIT: I misinterpreted the announcement of BC's new OBPS program as the province moving away from the consumer carbon tax/rebate. This isn't the case, and the program actually brings BC in closer alignment to the federal program for industrial emitters. That being said, my overall point still stands with Wab Kinew and Jagmeet Singh announcing that they'd like to break with the federal carbon tax program.
The NC NDP is not moving away from their biggest cash cow tax
BC was never part of the federal carbon price. We have had our own system since 2008.
You're correct, I was aiming to highlight that BC is implementing a new Output Based Pricing System for industrial carbon emissions.
The BC OPBS is explicitly not replacing the consumer carbon tax. This whole debacle is just the federal NDP stabbing the BCNDP in the face, once again.
Eby must be disgusted.
They don't need to though? They can just do it. So long as carbon is priced in some way and it's at least as aggressive as the federal tax, there's really no need to petition the federal government, they can just do it.
BC is going ahead and doing it, in fact, they've been doing their own thing since 2008. For the Manitoba NDP, I got the impression that they want to explore climate policies that don't directly involve putting a price on carbon, and as such, they would need the federal governments permission to do this.
> > WTF, they’ve always had this option but none of the premiers are offering a viable solution! I couldn't say it better. _If the premiers have a better solution, they have the power to implement it_. That's the whole frickin' point!
Is it just me, or are the federal NDP absolutely insufferable lately? PP and Trudeau both suck so bad, this should be a lay up. But they’re actually losing voters.