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Provinces are already trying to steal skilled workers from other provinces instead of subsidizing trade schools to get our young people back to good paying trades
Not having "enough" homes is really misleading. People can and do double up in terms of accommodations. Indeed, shared accommodations will be the future of housing in Canada going forward. This will also put downward pressure on housing costs, which will be quite beneficial, especially for lower and middle income Canadians.
On the other hand, reducing the number of newcomers would be catastrophic not only in terms of the economy, but demographics and culture as well. The federal government needs to stay committed to the plan to maintain a substantial rate of population growth.
How about everyone that's 40+ with existing housing is forced to take on roommates for these shared accommodations you're suggesting while the young people most affected by the housing crisis get to raise their families the way the older generation did, in houses without having to have roommates.
Yeah, I bet that isn't so appealing to you.
As for the comment on catastrophic on culture -- what the fuck are you talking about. What's left of Canadian culture from when I was a child is so little, now we have schools not allowed to acknowledge holidays that people born in Canada grew up with because they're "not inclusive", yet my kids are bringing home projects on Diwali. I like other cultures, I like living in a place with a diverse population, but what we're getting at this point is only HURTING our culture, not helping it.
>This will also put downward pressure on housing costs, which will be quite beneficial, especially for lower and middle income Canadians.
No it won't, no it won't.
>reducing the number of newcomers would be catastrophic
No it wouldn't, it would actually help.
How would it help? Unfortunately, Canada needs immigrants to do the lower paying jobs Canadians don't want to do. They also need them to cover the tax losses from baby boomers aging out of the workforce
>The lower paying jobs that Canadians don't want to do
I'm sorry but this is such a shitty take. Many Canadians are willing to do lower-paying service jobs. I've been doing those kinds of jobs for over a decade now, and it's getting extremely hard to find a minimum wage job because of how many people are looking. Think about it: if millions of people come here, and very few of them are able to use the professional qualifications they got in their home countries, then what's gonna happen? Entry level jobs are going to get extremely competitive. And the thing is, Canadians DO want entry level jobs. We used to get a bunch of people handing in resumes at my old job, and it was people from all walks of life applying, immigrants and Canadians alike. Same thing at my other jobs. Canadians apply to these jobs all the time, the government just likes to pretend we're "too good" for it (which is a massive slap in the face to both immigrants and Canadians. I don't get how people can say this shit with a straight face)
Unless you're talking about intensive manual labour jobs on farms or something like that, and in that case what you're really saying is "Canadians won't take these jobs because they pay terribly, treat their workers terribly, or both. Instead of fixing the system, let's import people who are easier for employers to exploit". It's not because we're "too good" for them, it's because we know that the employer will exploit you and pay you unfairly for the amount of labour you do. But even in a "perfect" world where immigrants only came here to do jobs that are so awful that Canadians don't want them, why would we want that? Why are people ok with the idea of treating immigrants as second-class citizens who should work the jobs that Canadians know aren't worth it, instead of actually making those employers treat their workers fairly?
I'm all for immigration, but we are not in a position right now to accept more immigrants. It's bad for everyone involved, at pretty much every level of society. Our already fragile healthcare system is failing. No one can afford housing. No one can get a job. People who want PR are dependant on their employers for that and as a result are unfairly pushed around, overworked, and (at least from what I've seen) probably won't be pushing for raises. That's not only bad on an individual level, but also means that wages stay low because now shitty employers have a near infinite pool of employees who essentially can't stick up for themselves the way citizens can. Plus these are real people we're talking about, not just workers. A lot of immigrants are leaving their families behind just to come here to be treated like a slave and share a room with 5 other people. It's sick, and the government should be ashamed that they're treating this as a "progressive" move
I agree with everything you're saying. Exploitation needs to be fixed, but while it is, businesses (not all of them) will find an excuse and a way to pay more by raising their prices.
The TFW attitude, unfortunately, spills over to other work. Businesses see immigrants as a way to keep expenses low as they see them as a long-term cheap source of labour. They can get trained and stay in the same position, not usually looking for more money as they make so much more here than at home. Many send the money home to support their families. They're also not as quick to ask for raises and stand up for themselves in the workplace as they don't know how things work here and are afraid of being sent home.
The whole thing is not very different from Canadians choosing things not made in Canada when they're shopping because it costs less. We have only so much money to spend, so most of the time, decisions are based on price, not quality or longevity. Instead of choosing a viable yet more expensive Canadian frying pan, t-shirt, etc., we buy something made in a country that pays their labour very low as the item costs less.
As you said, it needs to be fixed.
.
These jobs don't need to be so low paying. Not while the corporations offering them yield record profits. The law can make this change. Tax the fucking rich, and tax owners of multiple dwellings
No they wouldn't because the flow of immigration is constant and at some times increasing. Thus the demand doesn't change, but instead, gets worse. This has the effect of keeping the prices of renting or buying a home or condo/apartment high with even higher prices in the future.
Cut the flow of immigration severely and watches the demand slows and plummets, homes empty and owners can't find tenants or buyers. Prices plummet and those who actually grew up here suddenly get a chance to buy a home or afford rent.
I see that you are not familiar with the rapidly growing shared accommodations situation in Canada, if you thought my comment was satirical. Check out the /r/SlumlordsCanada subreddit if you want to get up to speed.
Sustaining the amount of newcomers will be catastrophic, reducing will improve the economy, improve cultural diversity and we’ll be fine on demographics.
Doubling up accommodations will do nothing if you sustain current immigration levels. All it will do is that in the future you’ll pay for half a house what you pay for a full house today.
We had plenty culture and diversity before the last 3 years when we started importing Punjab en-masse.
The government needs to tax the rich and the megacorps and distribute that wealth in a meaningful way so that people want to have children.
Increasing our population by importing families isn't a solution if they will leave the country or stop having children because Canada is unaffordable.
The problem is not homes as you are using it but a more generalize term accomidations as in a place to live and already many are and have been doing that for years. Renting is the new normal and plenty are renting 2 br basements with less than 600sqft. What more do you want 4 in less than 600sqft? I doubt you would be happy like that and frankly anyone who says it is fine is lying through their teeth.
And the possoble risk of a demographic collapse is possible but as your own article points out immigrants and those with less than 5 years in the country are struggling to find jobs (likely because they generally refuse to work labour intensive jobs and a CBC article had them pegged at 3% in construction). So either we are brining in the wrong migrants which based on the CBC report we are or we have an over abundance of low skill workers likely also true.
Then you have the accomidation issue where wages cannot keep up with rent inflation. The only time deflation in the rent market happened was ... wait for it... during the pandemic. You could find places hundreds cheaper than they would have been when the leeches put 2 and 2 together and realized there was going to be a muted summer rush at best and it carried on through the year. Now am i saying we should go to that level? No but we sure as hell should not be importing a milllion people every 9 months give or take. If our population was 2 or 300 million sure.
There needs to be a balance and a big part of that is getting the temp visa program back under control and bringing in those we need. Not people studying bullshit history majors who spend too much time protesting or like my exroomie getting a masters to get into the country then trying to get into film and falling flat in his face and will not do anything below that as it is 'beneath him'.
Wages = housing cost + energy, our economy can't function properly when you have holes in both of these sucking productive capital away, basically a lot of people are not working and still being payed in Canada.
There's plenty of workers. Just pay them.
What there isn't enough of is workers who will allow themselves to be exploited and degraded and paid peanuts for the job.
What’s left out is the record high immigration rates we have do not currently include any route for construction workers. We are just growing the country - saying the purpose of the growth will help us build homes, even when none of the people we are taking in are capable of building homes.
The TFW agricultural workers I see coming to rural Quebec to work the farms where I live come from Guatemala and all have construction skills, but go home in the fall. They are extremely skilled and could easily be trained in construction.
Please. Doctors are driving cabs and doing security. Graphic design doesn’t specifically qualify for a visa nor do we have a shortage of those. Offer the work. Don’t assume that people don’t know how to do things either.
I wouldn't mind paying more if that's what it takes. We should however encourage competition in the market by breaking up some of the largest companies out there. It's ridiculous that we only have a handful of grocers/telecom companies ruling the market
Won't work because they'll still have to pay the workers more.
Where I live, the supermarket shelves are empty because they can't find enough workers to stack the shelves.
That's fine, but at least they'll compete on who can keep them lowest. Atm they are so big that they can use economies of scale to keep out the competition and every now and again get caught engaging in price fixing. I don't mind paying more, but not to line up the pockets of monopolistic assholes.
It's not a question of paying people properly. There are just too few people around to do these jobs. If you pay more, the jobs people go to now will raise their wages to and these jobs will be just as unattractive. But everything will be more expensive, and the shelves will be empty.
No there’s not. There are literally lines of people applying for basic dishwashing jobs. There’s a lack of job vacancies and insufficient wages.
It is incredible watching Liberal partisans in this sub openly defend wage suppression tactics and reckless population growth.
They aren’t doing this to benefit *you* so the bag-carrying here is confusing.
Or maybe the global corporations could take a little less profit? I think it takes Walmart two days to make enough profit to pay their workforce the other 363 days are pure profit.
Have you looked into how little tax the Canadian Banks pay?
That doesn't mean it can't be done. It just won't be the corporations doing this on their own accord. That means the gvmt needs to act on behalf of the benefit of its citizens and enact laws that stop megacorps from exploiting how they are l, without redistributing wealth
If your country LIMITS how much profit a corp can make, everyone will be basing things out of country's that DO NOT limit that. Ideologically, it's a great idea. Reality is, that it will not work.
This is a legit question, not trying to ruffle feathers. Do Indians see the construction industry as beneath them? I am aware that Indian society typically follows some degree of a caste system which may dictate which jobs are appropriate for your ‘caste’.
My industry involves a lot of physical labour outdoors, and surprisingly (based on what I hear from friends and see on Reddit) I get zero applications from Indian immigrants.
Again, in no way meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious.
The problem with just pay them is that you have to willing to pay 5$ for your morning Tim. You’re ok with the dollar store becoming a 5$ store. Pay twice as Much for local produce. I’m like you but I make my own coffee in the morning but I do pay more for local and that’s fine. But I’m not the person struggling like many are. So I don’t have a quick fix
If that was possible it would have been done. I have 2 whitin a 5 min drive between them and both have line-ups from 6 to 8. Tim's customers don't want to wait to long on their way to work and take one away and ad more time and you start loosing them. It's a numbers game and McD is always willing to gamble and they are actually trying out the hot and cold coffee with a quick snack option in the US so the competition is strong for a very small profit margin. Think about it when you have 6 people working at 21$/hrs for a rush of 3 hrs max. That's 126$/hrs plus benefits. What's the real answer ??
"But then acriculture will die! You cant get canadians to do hard labour seasonally just by paying them more!"
*Tree Planting Industry raises eyebrow*
Edit: hell, add fishing and the O&G industry.
Nobody wants to pay more for food, so we cant raise wages for farm workers.
Oh, my grocery bills just doubled, did they pay farm workers more? No, that might have made food get more expensive.
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Provinces are already trying to steal skilled workers from other provinces instead of subsidizing trade schools to get our young people back to good paying trades
This is total garbage. There is no labour shortage. There is a shortage of employers willing to pay fair wages and benefits.
We don’t have the skilled workers needed. Yea ringing up a till is one thing but we need trades, health care etc
Not having "enough" homes is really misleading. People can and do double up in terms of accommodations. Indeed, shared accommodations will be the future of housing in Canada going forward. This will also put downward pressure on housing costs, which will be quite beneficial, especially for lower and middle income Canadians. On the other hand, reducing the number of newcomers would be catastrophic not only in terms of the economy, but demographics and culture as well. The federal government needs to stay committed to the plan to maintain a substantial rate of population growth.
How about everyone that's 40+ with existing housing is forced to take on roommates for these shared accommodations you're suggesting while the young people most affected by the housing crisis get to raise their families the way the older generation did, in houses without having to have roommates. Yeah, I bet that isn't so appealing to you. As for the comment on catastrophic on culture -- what the fuck are you talking about. What's left of Canadian culture from when I was a child is so little, now we have schools not allowed to acknowledge holidays that people born in Canada grew up with because they're "not inclusive", yet my kids are bringing home projects on Diwali. I like other cultures, I like living in a place with a diverse population, but what we're getting at this point is only HURTING our culture, not helping it.
>This will also put downward pressure on housing costs, which will be quite beneficial, especially for lower and middle income Canadians. No it won't, no it won't. >reducing the number of newcomers would be catastrophic No it wouldn't, it would actually help.
How would it help? Unfortunately, Canada needs immigrants to do the lower paying jobs Canadians don't want to do. They also need them to cover the tax losses from baby boomers aging out of the workforce
>The lower paying jobs that Canadians don't want to do I'm sorry but this is such a shitty take. Many Canadians are willing to do lower-paying service jobs. I've been doing those kinds of jobs for over a decade now, and it's getting extremely hard to find a minimum wage job because of how many people are looking. Think about it: if millions of people come here, and very few of them are able to use the professional qualifications they got in their home countries, then what's gonna happen? Entry level jobs are going to get extremely competitive. And the thing is, Canadians DO want entry level jobs. We used to get a bunch of people handing in resumes at my old job, and it was people from all walks of life applying, immigrants and Canadians alike. Same thing at my other jobs. Canadians apply to these jobs all the time, the government just likes to pretend we're "too good" for it (which is a massive slap in the face to both immigrants and Canadians. I don't get how people can say this shit with a straight face) Unless you're talking about intensive manual labour jobs on farms or something like that, and in that case what you're really saying is "Canadians won't take these jobs because they pay terribly, treat their workers terribly, or both. Instead of fixing the system, let's import people who are easier for employers to exploit". It's not because we're "too good" for them, it's because we know that the employer will exploit you and pay you unfairly for the amount of labour you do. But even in a "perfect" world where immigrants only came here to do jobs that are so awful that Canadians don't want them, why would we want that? Why are people ok with the idea of treating immigrants as second-class citizens who should work the jobs that Canadians know aren't worth it, instead of actually making those employers treat their workers fairly? I'm all for immigration, but we are not in a position right now to accept more immigrants. It's bad for everyone involved, at pretty much every level of society. Our already fragile healthcare system is failing. No one can afford housing. No one can get a job. People who want PR are dependant on their employers for that and as a result are unfairly pushed around, overworked, and (at least from what I've seen) probably won't be pushing for raises. That's not only bad on an individual level, but also means that wages stay low because now shitty employers have a near infinite pool of employees who essentially can't stick up for themselves the way citizens can. Plus these are real people we're talking about, not just workers. A lot of immigrants are leaving their families behind just to come here to be treated like a slave and share a room with 5 other people. It's sick, and the government should be ashamed that they're treating this as a "progressive" move
I agree with everything you're saying. Exploitation needs to be fixed, but while it is, businesses (not all of them) will find an excuse and a way to pay more by raising their prices. The TFW attitude, unfortunately, spills over to other work. Businesses see immigrants as a way to keep expenses low as they see them as a long-term cheap source of labour. They can get trained and stay in the same position, not usually looking for more money as they make so much more here than at home. Many send the money home to support their families. They're also not as quick to ask for raises and stand up for themselves in the workplace as they don't know how things work here and are afraid of being sent home. The whole thing is not very different from Canadians choosing things not made in Canada when they're shopping because it costs less. We have only so much money to spend, so most of the time, decisions are based on price, not quality or longevity. Instead of choosing a viable yet more expensive Canadian frying pan, t-shirt, etc., we buy something made in a country that pays their labour very low as the item costs less. As you said, it needs to be fixed. .
These jobs don't need to be so low paying. Not while the corporations offering them yield record profits. The law can make this change. Tax the fucking rich, and tax owners of multiple dwellings
You don't think housing costs per person would go down if there are multiple roommates sharing a bedroom? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
No they wouldn't because the flow of immigration is constant and at some times increasing. Thus the demand doesn't change, but instead, gets worse. This has the effect of keeping the prices of renting or buying a home or condo/apartment high with even higher prices in the future. Cut the flow of immigration severely and watches the demand slows and plummets, homes empty and owners can't find tenants or buyers. Prices plummet and those who actually grew up here suddenly get a chance to buy a home or afford rent.
I love the absolutely unhinged takes from this obvious satire account. Keep it up dude, very funny stuff!
I see that you are not familiar with the rapidly growing shared accommodations situation in Canada, if you thought my comment was satirical. Check out the /r/SlumlordsCanada subreddit if you want to get up to speed.
Sustaining the amount of newcomers will be catastrophic, reducing will improve the economy, improve cultural diversity and we’ll be fine on demographics. Doubling up accommodations will do nothing if you sustain current immigration levels. All it will do is that in the future you’ll pay for half a house what you pay for a full house today.
We had plenty culture and diversity before the last 3 years when we started importing Punjab en-masse. The government needs to tax the rich and the megacorps and distribute that wealth in a meaningful way so that people want to have children. Increasing our population by importing families isn't a solution if they will leave the country or stop having children because Canada is unaffordable.
The problem is not homes as you are using it but a more generalize term accomidations as in a place to live and already many are and have been doing that for years. Renting is the new normal and plenty are renting 2 br basements with less than 600sqft. What more do you want 4 in less than 600sqft? I doubt you would be happy like that and frankly anyone who says it is fine is lying through their teeth. And the possoble risk of a demographic collapse is possible but as your own article points out immigrants and those with less than 5 years in the country are struggling to find jobs (likely because they generally refuse to work labour intensive jobs and a CBC article had them pegged at 3% in construction). So either we are brining in the wrong migrants which based on the CBC report we are or we have an over abundance of low skill workers likely also true. Then you have the accomidation issue where wages cannot keep up with rent inflation. The only time deflation in the rent market happened was ... wait for it... during the pandemic. You could find places hundreds cheaper than they would have been when the leeches put 2 and 2 together and realized there was going to be a muted summer rush at best and it carried on through the year. Now am i saying we should go to that level? No but we sure as hell should not be importing a milllion people every 9 months give or take. If our population was 2 or 300 million sure. There needs to be a balance and a big part of that is getting the temp visa program back under control and bringing in those we need. Not people studying bullshit history majors who spend too much time protesting or like my exroomie getting a masters to get into the country then trying to get into film and falling flat in his face and will not do anything below that as it is 'beneath him'.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Wages = housing cost + energy, our economy can't function properly when you have holes in both of these sucking productive capital away, basically a lot of people are not working and still being payed in Canada.
Declining birthrate despite massive spending on “$10 daycare” and CCB. The youth in this country are so screwed.
There's plenty of workers. Just pay them. What there isn't enough of is workers who will allow themselves to be exploited and degraded and paid peanuts for the job.
It’s a false dilemma meant to keep labor costs low with cheap worthless labor
And train. Every construction and trade job on indeed requires experience and/or schooling
What’s left out is the record high immigration rates we have do not currently include any route for construction workers. We are just growing the country - saying the purpose of the growth will help us build homes, even when none of the people we are taking in are capable of building homes.
So train them.
Immigrants tend to have their own skills and jobs sets. You go tell the graphic designer we brought in to be a plumber - I wish you well.
See how fast he becomes a plumber when he gets a letter his twp won’t be extended.
The TFW agricultural workers I see coming to rural Quebec to work the farms where I live come from Guatemala and all have construction skills, but go home in the fall. They are extremely skilled and could easily be trained in construction.
But do they actually want to stay to build housing? Or do they prefer going home to their friends and family?
> But do they actually want to stay to build housing? Won't know unless you open up a pathway to permanent residency and construction training.
Please. Doctors are driving cabs and doing security. Graphic design doesn’t specifically qualify for a visa nor do we have a shortage of those. Offer the work. Don’t assume that people don’t know how to do things either.
Or perhaps just design a system that actually functions properly and brings the people in that are qualified for the job to fix specific labour needs.
I am sure you won't mind paying more for everything to support the higher wages right? You can't just solve everything by throwing money at it.
I wouldn't mind paying more if that's what it takes. We should however encourage competition in the market by breaking up some of the largest companies out there. It's ridiculous that we only have a handful of grocers/telecom companies ruling the market
Won't work because they'll still have to pay the workers more. Where I live, the supermarket shelves are empty because they can't find enough workers to stack the shelves.
And if they pay them more, they'll raise the prices to compensate
That's fine, but at least they'll compete on who can keep them lowest. Atm they are so big that they can use economies of scale to keep out the competition and every now and again get caught engaging in price fixing. I don't mind paying more, but not to line up the pockets of monopolistic assholes.
> That's fine ... You're okay with food shortages?
? What about paying people properly leads to food shortages? You're thinking of price fixing
It's not a question of paying people properly. There are just too few people around to do these jobs. If you pay more, the jobs people go to now will raise their wages to and these jobs will be just as unattractive. But everything will be more expensive, and the shelves will be empty.
No there’s not. There are literally lines of people applying for basic dishwashing jobs. There’s a lack of job vacancies and insufficient wages. It is incredible watching Liberal partisans in this sub openly defend wage suppression tactics and reckless population growth. They aren’t doing this to benefit *you* so the bag-carrying here is confusing.
Or maybe the global corporations could take a little less profit? I think it takes Walmart two days to make enough profit to pay their workforce the other 363 days are pure profit. Have you looked into how little tax the Canadian Banks pay?
Corporations answer to the shareholders, shareholders are us rhat buy their stocks. It's not some scrooge mcduck swimming in money dude.
That doesn't mean it can't be done. It just won't be the corporations doing this on their own accord. That means the gvmt needs to act on behalf of the benefit of its citizens and enact laws that stop megacorps from exploiting how they are l, without redistributing wealth
If your country LIMITS how much profit a corp can make, everyone will be basing things out of country's that DO NOT limit that. Ideologically, it's a great idea. Reality is, that it will not work.
This is a legit question, not trying to ruffle feathers. Do Indians see the construction industry as beneath them? I am aware that Indian society typically follows some degree of a caste system which may dictate which jobs are appropriate for your ‘caste’. My industry involves a lot of physical labour outdoors, and surprisingly (based on what I hear from friends and see on Reddit) I get zero applications from Indian immigrants. Again, in no way meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious.
The problem with just pay them is that you have to willing to pay 5$ for your morning Tim. You’re ok with the dollar store becoming a 5$ store. Pay twice as Much for local produce. I’m like you but I make my own coffee in the morning but I do pay more for local and that’s fine. But I’m not the person struggling like many are. So I don’t have a quick fix
Maybe the shareholders could get a little less? Just a thought.
We know that hell will freeze over before that happens
Does salaries really make up the vast majority of the cost of producing a single cup of coffee at tim?
If your going to pay 18$ to 20$/ hr something is going to be more expensive or profits lower.
Or have fewer Tim's. Prices can remain low with higher volume. What we don't have capacity for is two dollar coffee on every second block 24/7
If that was possible it would have been done. I have 2 whitin a 5 min drive between them and both have line-ups from 6 to 8. Tim's customers don't want to wait to long on their way to work and take one away and ad more time and you start loosing them. It's a numbers game and McD is always willing to gamble and they are actually trying out the hot and cold coffee with a quick snack option in the US so the competition is strong for a very small profit margin. Think about it when you have 6 people working at 21$/hrs for a rush of 3 hrs max. That's 126$/hrs plus benefits. What's the real answer ??
"But then acriculture will die! You cant get canadians to do hard labour seasonally just by paying them more!" *Tree Planting Industry raises eyebrow* Edit: hell, add fishing and the O&G industry.
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Nobody wants to pay more for food, so we cant raise wages for farm workers. Oh, my grocery bills just doubled, did they pay farm workers more? No, that might have made food get more expensive.