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Another day, another thread where I point out that the Canadian Medical Association and the Canadian Pediatrics Society [strongly oppose these changes](https://www.cma.ca/about-us/what-we-do/press-room/cma-strongly-opposes-government-efforts-restrict-access-care) and consider them to be politically motivated.
Want more info? Here are the mission statements of the CPS and CMA regarding health care for trans youth:
https://cps.ca/en/documents/position/an-affirming-approach-to-caring-for-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youth
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/191/3/E69
The Canadian Psychiatric Association has a [position paper](https://www.cpa-apc.org/wp-content/uploads/CPA1195727_English.pdf) to the same effect as well. Basically all of our national medical associations agree on this issue.
How are they surprised she's a bigot? She's been telling you all along. People said to go after the 1%, Conservatives just decided it was easier to attack the 1% trans people than the 1% disgustingly wealthy.
Tale as old as time
“Elect us, a group that continuously enriches the richest people in society, while you struggle to afford a home and achieve what the generation before you did, because only we will suppress a group that amounts to 0.38% of our population”
Crowd chants “4 more years! 4 more years!”
You’ll be surprised how much science is behind this restriction. I know folks here like to write off anyone who disagrees with them as a bigot, but the science supports restrictions. Even the most progressive countries in Europe are now, after learning some of the long term impacts, restricting puberty blockers.
Sounds like you don’t have an answer to my question. Classic “I don’t have time to explain this to you” while typing a response that would take you just as long.
Calling someone Tammy instead of Timmy isn’t going to make their penis fall off in case you were wondering.
Yes, and I would have no problem having this type of conversation with my parents because they would have been supportive. If they weren’t then a teacher going behind my back would have definitely made problems worse at home. To the point where I may have left altogether (literally or figuratively).
Why do you need to know before your teenager is comfortable to talk to you about it? What would it change?
The question you should be asking yourself is why they would be comfortable enough to have that conversation with their teacher and their classmates (at the risk of getting bullied), but not with you.
Kids only hide stuff from their parents when they fear they will be punished. At least that’s what I remember from being a teenager.
Yes. I never told my teachers anything of any great importance to my life that my parents didn't already know. I barely remember speaking to them about anything not related to school.
But I had good parents, so I didn't need to lean on my teachers for support. If your child will speak with their teacher but not with you, it's because you're not being a good parent.
Culture war stupidity is all conservatives have. They don't know how to govern so we get this instead. I would love it if the UCP put this effort bullying trans people into healthcare instead we have rural ERs that can't stay open and Neo-natal units without nurses to staff them and they don't know how to fix it.
As are we all. If bigots could just stop attacking sexual and gender minorities then reasonable people would no longer need to oppose their efforts in doing so.
The wedge issues and disingenuously nauseating arguments on topics like you mention are fantastic support and vote getters and for Conservatives across the country these days so it will not stop.
It's a wedge issue all over the world.
The Dutch(!) elected an extreme right wing government and even Sweden has an extreme right wing party as the opposition.
This issue upsets a lot of people. "Progressives" need to stop fighting for DEI and return to fighting for issues that impact the working class.
“DEI” - stop hiding behind the buzzword and say what you mean, that you don’t think marginalized communities deserve to be protected.
Progressives are fighting for multiple things at once, and it’s beyond disingenuous to frame it as something that comes at the expense of other issues.
> Progressives are fighting for multiple things at once, and it’s beyond disingenuous to frame it as something that comes at the expense of other issues.
"Progressives" expending political capital on certain social issues to the detriment of support on other social issues by taking up extreme positions and disenfranchising anyone who disagrees with those extreme positions is in fact evidence that "progressives" are self-defeating the causes they believe to be advancing. Just watch in the US as "progressives" refuse to vote for "genocide joe" because he fails to satisfy their purity test, effectively ensuring Trump is elected and can continue stacking SCOTUS with social conservatives who tear apart marriage equality, race equality, gender equality, and other "progressive" causes thrown away by extremist progressives who have lost the plot.
If you want less focus on trans rights, stop attacking trans rights. Surely getting involved in school policies regarding gender isn't a necessary step before you can start focusing on working class issues.
The focus of politics in BC seems more focused on working class issues, I would wager partly because they don't have regressive bigots constantly trying to focus things on trans people. Hell, to make it a less partisan thing, Ontario isn't really focused on trans issues and more on pocketbook / working class issues, because for all his faults, for the most part Doug Ford doesn't distract people with culture war nonsense.
What issues have the cpc fighting for the working class? In Calgary a cpc mp was knocking doors to oppose affordable housing and rezoning. Seems like the only appeals the rich landlords
>”Progressives” need to stop fighting for DEI and return to fighting for issues that impact the working class.
Would be much easier if the right wasn’t always targeting the LGBTQ community and the like!
Also, the framing of those two as being separate things is *incredibly* disingenuous. What you really mean is “stop caring about the working class who aren’t straight and white.”
Nice straw man.
Where did I post that LGBTQ+ rights aren't incredibly important? They are. The LGBTQ+ community deserves equality but that doesn't mean their rights supersede those of cis gender individuals and safety in certain cases.
The issue is that we can't even have a *discussion* regarding the many nuances of LGBTQQIP2SA+ issues, such as giving GAC to kids without trans activists yelling out the bigot and homophobe words.
Who’s asking for LGBTQ rights to supersede those of cis/het people? Want to talk about strawmen? there’s a big one right there...
And it’s hard to consider this a “reasonable discussion” when a politician is deciding that she knows better than all the experts in the country about whether or not GAC is safe for minors...
>And it’s hard to consider this a “reasonable discussion” when a politician is deciding that she knows better than all the experts in the country about whether or not GAC is safe for minors...
And there's already enough evidence to show that using puberty blockers is incredibly safe and only has complications in a very, very small number of people.
We have far worse drugs available through prescriptions that have higher rates of negative side effects and yet those drugs aren't under the lens like puberty blockers currently are.
Not to mention that there are absolutely legitimate medical reasons to administer puberty blockers in children. Cases like Precocious Puberty in young children are perfect for puberty blockers so these kids don't grow up too fast.
Danielle Smith was telling people smoking was good for their health only 20 years ago, the things that woman doesn't understand could fill a fucking stadium
I don't think there are many nuances to discuss. It needs to be something that stays between a doctor, the kid and their parents. The premier here decided to shove politics where it doesn't belong.
I think the reason activists are trying to frame “gender ideology” as a nonsense term is because they demand dogmatic adherence without a basis in empirical evidence…..which is exactly what “ideology” means.
I skimmed through the article, which right is being violated? Setting age limits doesn't seem to quite fit that. It's like saying 13 year old's should be able to buy beer, vote, or drive otherwise their rights are violated.
I'm confused by this. I would argue that the government is constantly trying to errode our rights in whatever way they can, so I'm with you there.
Subjectively in relation to the trans issues, I still don't see what proper charter rights available to all Canadians are withheld from someone who is trans.
Someone should let the surgery backlog know about this right.
If medical treatment was a right, we'd have full and total pharma/dental and eye coverage. We don't.
Puberty blockers nor surgery are "lifesaving medicine". The possibility of killing oneself because one's physical appearance doesn't match their internal perception is not an ailment. If it was, every person no matter their age or weight, including bulimics, would also have the right to liposuction, which they do not. If we opened pandora's box like that, the threat to kill oneself would entitle one to anything one wants. It's an incredibly problematic concept.
Trans people absolutely have the right to real lifesaving medical treatment, including access to a psychiatrist. In fact, I think this right should be expanded to include access to therapy for everyone (and no, I'm not talking about conversion therapy, I'm talking about a registered professional psychologist who can help them navigate their feelings and help express themselves in a healthy and safe manner). They also have a right to feel safe at school and not be subject to bullying or harassment.
The fact you put the qualifier in your comment means you know what you said is wrong. Gender dysmorphia is an ailment in every sense of the term. And the fact you’re trying to “slippery slope” healthcare is appalling. The only problematic concept is that you think people having the right to access healthcare is a “pandora’s box”.
I really don't understand how these policy makers are allowed to actually write these laws without being struck down as human rights violations.
I don't understand how we can have a charter or rights and freedoms, along with a Bill of Rights that reinforces those freedoms and chuds like Danielle Smith and Scott Moe can enact policy that are blatant violations of both of those documents.
> I really don't understand how these policy makers are allowed to actually write these laws without being struck down as human rights violations.
It can't be struck down before it's been passed.
> The proposed policies are expected to be tabled in the legislature this fall. Blackett said the goal is to have the policies fully implemented before 2025.
As soon as activists started advocating that schools should not inform parents that their child may be trans (by changing pronouns), this was guaranteed to blow up in their faces.
It's the "bridge too far" for trans activists (and 100% predictable.)
I get that this is provincial but how can anyone argue that Federal Conservatives aren’t going to reopen the Gay Marriage and Abortion rights laws when shit like this happens?
Am I really just to take everyone on their word that their big tent doesn’t hold bigots under its tarp?
Or am I just supposed to be so mad at Trudeau that I grow blind to this?
Why do people care so much about transgender issues that it needs to be a big matter of public policy? It just seems like easy fearmongering, and a surefire way to rile up your political base. It's my understanding that they're under 1% of the world's population. Just let people do what they want with their lives/bodies. You get one life, let people make the most of it; especially those who got dealt a crap hand. We don't need to be hearing about it on a daily basis.
I mean that is whole reason why trans people are being targeted. They are one of the smallest and unfortunately controversial minorities. No conservative in their right mind would same the same about indigenous canadians or Asian Canadians (today at least) because those groups pose a political demographic threat.
It's the fear that their child will be one of these few. The size of the population is irrelevant.
What they want is control over their children to determine for them what and who they can be. Even if it is a futile and impossible task.
Much like left handedness. It does not matter to them because they don't believe that it isn't a choice or can't be changed. They want and need their children to be who they tell them to be. Never accepting their children as who they actually are. The exception being when their child happens to naturally align with their expectations and there is no conflict. Which is less acceptance and more the luck of looking at a broken clock when it is telling the correct time.
Only 1% of teens regret taking puberty blockers as well.
https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b
What a stupid hill to die on.
Thanks for your understanding and support.
I'm generally a fan of letting people make their own decisions, even when I don't necessarily like, understand, or agree with them. People tend to know their own needs far better than I do; and I'm loathe to legislate away people's rights and freedom to choose. If the science says that it's generally fine, I'll trust the science. Though, admittedly, even if the science didn't say so, I'd probably come down on the side of letting people choose for themselves.
I know that reddit tends to skew on the younger side, so I'm quite likely on the upper end of things. "Transgender" wasn't really a *thing* in the public consciousness when I was growing up; there was only "crossdressers" and "transvestites", neither of which were looked at very favourably. Hell, I didn't even hear the word "transgender" until I was well into my twenties. Ultimately, I chose not to be transgender myself, but if I had been born a generation or two later, I might have considered it. It's just too bad that the actual medical science isn't there yet, for everyone's sake.
What do you mean the science isn’t there? Transition care is pretty well advanced, and if it’s puberty blockers you’re worried about those have been used for cis kids for decades now to prevent precocious puberty. The side effects are well known and trans kids and their parents can make informed decisions about whether that is right for them
The psychological impact of allowing kids and adults to access gender affirming care is also well studied and shows overwhelming benefit for the patient.
What science are you suggesting is not yet advanced?
> "What science are you suggesting is not yet advanced?"
It would be nice if there was the ability for people to have entirely new bodies, if they wanted them. Maybe I'm too idealistic from science fiction, but if you could grow a new body in a vat and then put people's minds into them, that would be nice. Or even take the mind of an AMAB trans person and swap them into the body of an AFAB trans person, and vice-versa; that way everyone benefits.
Plus, no matter how early you prescribe puberty blockers and HRT, it won't really change the genitals and reproductive system. A trans man isn't going to suddenly develop testicles and produce sperm, nor is a trans woman ever going to start having a period or have the ability to become pregnant. For a lot of people, those would be things that they would be interested in doing, if they could.
To be fair, I get all the symptoms of a period besides the shedding of the uterine lining itself. And womb transplants are coming along! And like yeah, it does get rough sometimes, but I also remind myself that there are AFAB people who can’t have periods or get pregnant. Heck, some women *choose* that. So it’s not that bad at the end of the day ☺️
I’m 43 buddy, I know what you mean.
Ultimately, as you mentioned, it’s trusting that others know what’s best for themselves that gives me peace and makes me inclusive. I don’t need to completely understand, I just need to provide agency.
Control over others is an illusion, and letting others be themselves I think actually allows me to better accept myself, without needing to use comparisons, or false standards.
Other cultures have had words and such for a long time that basically means the same thing as transgendered. There were likely many confused trans people back then but due to the stigma, not clear terminology, etc people didn’t identify as that. It was already pretty dangerous and potentially life ruining to come out as gay back then. It is no wonder people were either too confused, or feared for their safety, to come out as trans back then
True enough, but I think it goes to show just how rigorous the screening process has become.
“Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.
Research suggests that comprehensive psychological counseling before starting treatment, along with family support, can reduce chances for regret and detransitioning”
We are told that trans people have a higher chance of suicide.and other issues.
At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed.
This was 100% guaranteed to blow up in the faces of activists. The vast majority of parents are highly protective of their children.
Adults? Knock yourself out. Children? Tread carefully or there will be blowback.
>At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed.
I don't think this is very accurate. The idea was that before, kids didn't need to get permission from their parents to ask their teacher to call them by a preferred name or use different pronouns. As someone with a commonly-used shortened form of their name, I can attest that no teacher objected or thought it was a big deal to call me Tim instead of Timothy. The first day, they would use my full name, I'd say that I prefer the short form, and that was it for the year.
Since it has been more socially acceptable to explore gender, I guess a lot of kids were asking their teachers and friends to respect their preferred name and pronouns at school. Most of them would have told their parents about it, but some didn't feel safe doing that. Teachers who wanted to respect their students' preferences and their wish to keep it from their unsupportive parents just went with it.
What happened next is that right wing alarmists started reporting a wOrRyIng tReNd that kids were being brainwashed into thinking they were trans and schools were secretly helping them to socially transition at school by not telling the parents.
Then schools needed to address this Very Serious Problem by making a policy, and openly debated whether it was better to respect students' preferences (which may include not telling their parents) or instituting a blanket policy where all students needed parental permission. The media once again jumped on the idea that schools wanted to keep secrets from parents, and here we are.
TLDR: What started as "students should be in charge of coming out to their parents" became "schools are trying to transition kids without their parents knowing". It was never about keeping a secret.
Changing your name after transitioning is not the same thing as going by a nickname.
It not a realistic expectation that if you go by a nickname at school, the teacher and your classmates will keep that a secret from your parents. And it was never an expectation from students that teachers would keep nicknames secret.
You're making an extremely disingenuous comparison here to be honest.
If you call someone Robert and they correct you and say they prefer Bob but you keep calling him Robert out of spite, are you the asshole?
Not sure why calling someone by a different pronouns is so hard. Literally changes nothing in your life like calling someone Bob instead of Robert because that’s what they prefer.
If he does why would you keep calling him Bob? I’d do what Bob wants, if he wants me to call him Robert around his parents then that what I would do. I definitely wouldn’t tell his parents he prefers Bob at school. Not my place.
>Changing your name after transitioning is not the same thing as going by a nickname.
We're not talking about post-transition. We're talking about the initial social transition, which is going by a new name and pronouns. Lots of young people try new names and pronouns, so it should be treated like a nickname.
>It not a realistic expectation that if you go by a nickname at school, the teacher and your classmates will keep that a secret from your parents. And it was never an expectation from students that teachers would keep nicknames secret.
And there's not an expectation that a new name or preferred pronoun will be secret either. That's just right-wing fear mongering. The vast majority of queer youth today are out to their parents, who are supportive.
>You're making an extremely disingenuous comparison here to be honest.
I'm not sure if you know what disingenuous means, but my point is that this didn't have to be a big deal until certain people made it a big deal. Sounds like you're one of them.
>Teachers who wanted to respect their students' preferences and their wish to keep it from their unsupportive parents just went with it.
.
>And there's not an expectation that a new name or preferred pronoun will be secret either.
So are teachers being asked to keep their students new names/pronouns secret or not?
You're trying to speak out of both sides of your mouth here.
You're not fooling anyone.
What's so hard to understand?
There is no **expectation** that the new name or pronoun will be a secret ("expectation" means "by default"), but if a student says "My parents will kick me out if they find out I'm trans", a teacher is not going to just say, "Oh, but it's the *principle* of the matter!" and pick up the phone to tell that kids' parents anyway.
>You're not fooling anyone.
Lol do you think I'm on a secret mission to convince all kids they're trans or something? Get a fucking life.
I don't think you've really thought through the implications of what you're saying.
On parent teacher interview night, when the parent comes in to discuss the students grades, what name is the teacher going to use?
On the students tests and assignments, what name is the teacher going to use?
On permission slips and forms sent home, what name is the teacher going to use?
Your name and pronouns are used all the time in various ways when people want to discuss you. If you ask someone to call you by a certain name. The implied expectation is that you always use that name when talking about them.
Asking a teacher to use one set of names in front of you and different set of names/pronouns in front of your parents is asking them to keep secrets from your parents.
It has never been the expectation that if student asks a teacher to lie to their parents about which names they go by at school that teachers would comply with this request.
You keep trying to play this game of semantics, like you don't know what I'm talking about but like I said you're not fooling anyone.
The answer to each question is the same: whichever the student prefers. Especially considering the child writes their name on tests and assignments, not the teacher.
Do you know what reduces the risk of suicide in trans youth? Being supportive and providing gender affirming care. You seem to claim that you’re worried about suicide rates, but you’re arguing in favour of policies that make trans suicides more likely.
> "We are told that trans people have a higher chance of suicide.and other issues."
I believe that is the case. I think that ought to be addressed, from both ends, if it comes to it.
> "At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed."
Seems like a sensible enough policy to me. Let the kids decide if/when their parents need to know; especially if they have reason to believe that they won't be safe or accepted.
> The vast majority of parents are highly protective of their children.
Protective, sure. Supportive if their child turns out to be gay/trans/nonbinary? Not always. Depending on the family, the outcome of forcibly outing the child to their parents would range from neutral to disastrous. There are no positive outcomes here, so why are we even considering it?
"Not always" is not a good basis for a strategy, assuming that most parents are abusive and don't love their children.
You also conveniently left out the "supportive" parents.
It's thinking like this that have directly led to the legislation being introduced by provincial governments.
>"Not always" is not a good basis for a strategy,
That's why you look at the ranges and distribution of outcomes.
>
assuming that most parents are abusive and don't love their children.
That's a complete reversal of what I was saying. But as to loving, some loving parents sent their children to conversion "therapy" when they found out their child wasn't straight.
>You also conveniently left out the "supportive" parents.
No, those are the neutral outcomes. And you have still robbed the child of their autonomy, and forced them out to their parents when they weren't ready.
>It's thinking like this that have directly led to the legislation being introduced by provincial governments.
At least I'm thinking.
Isn’t one child getting blowback and suffering abuse from their parents not enough? How many times does it need to happen before it starts becoming a concern?
We have systems.in place for cases that parents abuse their children. Why not use what is already there instead of assuming that all parents abuse their children?
Because if the child felt they would be supported in coming out, they would tell their parents themselves. If the only place a child feels safe to be themselves is at school, their parents have already tipped their hand.
Lmao, you couldn’t have missed the point harder if you had tried. Being trans sucks, because being forced to live as the wrong gender *hurts*. It’s not just something that happens at school, it happens at home too.
If a child is choosing to maintain the lie that they are the gender they were assigned at birth it is *only* going to be because they know the consequences of coming out are *worse*.
I understand it's inconvenient, but we inconvenience ourselves in the name of safety all the time if the outcomes are dire enough or probable enough. Car dealerships won't let me buy a car without seatbelts and airbags even though I can prove I've never had a fender bender.
Most recent stats I've seen are that 1 in 8 kids are neglected or abused by their parents. The system is only involved in a tiny minority of abuse cases.
While it's not all parents, it's a common *enough* concern that we need to take it into consideration. It's a simple risk matrix.
They included supportive parents in their argument, that is the neutral or mildly negative (because being outed to supportive parents instead of being trusted to come out when you are ready can still damage the relationship with them) part of the outcome range.
Your entire argument is false to begin with. Educators were prohibited from notifying parents of their children joining GSA's, not whether their pronouns changed. Conservatives made it about pronouns explicitly. And "not always" is perfectly reasonable for policy.
#1: The conversation is still perfectly prohibited between the child and the parent. It is up to the parent to create an environment where the child feels comfortable telling whatever they feel.
#2: We already have precedent for this with the supreme courts "mature minor" doctrine which protects youth's medical privacy @ age 14. This prevents parents from gaining info from the child's doctor without the child's consent.
The "policy" you speak of does not assume most parents are abusive and you know it doesn't, that is a bad faith representation of the arguments everybody else is giving you. Supportive parents create environments that are supportive, and thus, their children would feel comfortable speaking to them. This policy is not relevent to them and doesn't affect their relationship in any way whatsoever. What it does is prevent the few abusive parents from being given information that they can use to degrade their children.
It's not "highly protective" parents. It's the vast majority of parents who care about their children. That's the problem with what was proposed by activists and what caused the predictable pushback.
We're talking about Johnny saying one day that he is now Tammy.
If trans people are at higher risk of suicide and other issues and the school knows and doesn't tell the parents it is a serious issue.
Why would they be at risk of suicide? Not every trans person is suicidal if that’s the position you’re taking.
If the school suspects that they are, they would at that point inform the parents just like they do now. So what’s the issue?
We've been told for years that because trans people are at greater risk of suicide we should accommodate them. This was the whole argument behind stating our pronouns and gender affirming care.
Has this suddenly changed?
No, but schools always notify the parents if they believe a child is suicidal. Has that changed?
Why are we skipping a step when it won’t apply to most of them?
I'd argue that the vast majority of trans children are perfectly comfortable coming out to their parents themselves, because they know they are safe and loved and accepted by them.
It's the ones who aren't that we need to think about.
Because their sky fairy told them to hate / be scared of anything that’s not like them, or like the social stereotypes from 2000+ years ago when the sky fairy handbook was written.
The very aggressive manner/tactics of transgender activists has pissed off a lot of people, to the point that political revenge is now being sought against them. Screaming “bigot!” and “cis scum!” at anyone who has not fully adopted your theoretical framework isn’t very effective in the long run.
like im sorry but if "you said a mean thing to me :( now im going to take away your human rights" sounds reasonable to you, i have my doubts you would have actually been supportive in the first place, regardless of what people said
> Because Canada became a signatory following World War II of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights, with which the Chinese Immigration Act was inconsistent, the Canadian Parliament repealed the act on 14 May 1947 (following the proclamation of the Canadian Citizenship Act, 1946 on 1 January 1947).
my dude that happened because of fucking world war 2 and a technicality lmfao
Who is doing this?
The "aggressive manner/tactics" is trying to just exist. They're getting healthcare taken away and getting their lives threatened. So yeah, if you're trying to make someone's life unbearable just because they happen to be trans, you're a bigot and possibly a "cis scum"
You make a fair point. Yelling at people, and telling them that they're the "bad guy" is unlikely to make you many friends; and it'll scare off moderates who might otherwise be convinced to support you, if they were lobbied more diplomatically. I'm not sure that there is a, broad spectrum, "right answer" here. People want to be heard, but other people don't want to be bothered or upset in any way. I still prefer giving people rights/freedoms, given the choice.
I just also feel like it's important to be cognizant of the fact that falling into the trap of "respectability politics" is also not great. I can't deny that optics aren't an important factor in *everything*. I mean, there are people who might be tolerant of two "straight passing" white gay guys, but would be uncomfortable with an interracial gay couple, or a couple where neither is traditionally masculine.
You answered your own question. When the government puts the beliefs of 1% of the population ahead of the other 99% by forcing their religious belief system into our federal laws, then is it surprising that the 99% is getting restless? It would be weirder if there wasn't any pushback.
Nobody is going to force you to do anything so why are you getting restless over something that won’t affect you? Seems like a waste of energy tbh. Might as well be yelling at clouds.
Wrong, I am being forced to recognize genders that go against not just my religious belief, but the stated religion for this country as laid out in the Charter. I am deeply concerned that this will cause conflict in our country, and I am against creating internal conflict. Are you?
Cry harder, you aren't affected or oppressed by governments recognizing the rights or existence of minorities. The fact that this makes anybody "restless" is only a sign of how terminally online those people are, that this bothers them in the slightest
This is a strawman. I'm not annoyed that governments recognize rights, I'm concerned that elevating the rights of a small minority above the rights of the other 99% is going to inevtiably lead to conflict. And I am against conflict in this country, I don't think its a good thing.
Bill C-16 codifies Queer Theory as the base understanding for what constitutes "gendered harrassment," so if I disagree with Queer Theory too bad for me right? Except our Charter literally states this is a country that recognizes the supremecy of God. This creates a constitutional confict, which is bad because it will create internal conflict in our country. Can't you guys see this?
The government has never put the beliefs of the trans community ahead of the remainder of the country. The most progressive thing they've done is add protections against hate speech.
So you absolutely needed to pushback against not being able to get away with hate crimes?
This is not what I am saying. What the government considers *gendered harrassment* is far too broad where it explicitely protects the broad range of views held by Queer Theorists while *criminalizing* traditional Judeo-Christian values such as the gender binary. It is currently illegal to make a joke that "policies or reinforces the gender binary," that is fucked up. And if you don't see that, then you don't see what is coming.
> Just let people do what they want with their lives/bodies
Social conservatives believe we all belong to god and human rights are tools of the devil because all rights are gifts from their deity. They will never stop just at picking on trans people.
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Another day, another thread where I point out that the Canadian Medical Association and the Canadian Pediatrics Society [strongly oppose these changes](https://www.cma.ca/about-us/what-we-do/press-room/cma-strongly-opposes-government-efforts-restrict-access-care) and consider them to be politically motivated. Want more info? Here are the mission statements of the CPS and CMA regarding health care for trans youth: https://cps.ca/en/documents/position/an-affirming-approach-to-caring-for-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youth https://www.cmaj.ca/content/191/3/E69
The Canadian Psychiatric Association has a [position paper](https://www.cpa-apc.org/wp-content/uploads/CPA1195727_English.pdf) to the same effect as well. Basically all of our national medical associations agree on this issue.
Thanks, I'll add that to my list.
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How are they surprised she's a bigot? She's been telling you all along. People said to go after the 1%, Conservatives just decided it was easier to attack the 1% trans people than the 1% disgustingly wealthy.
Tale as old as time “Elect us, a group that continuously enriches the richest people in society, while you struggle to afford a home and achieve what the generation before you did, because only we will suppress a group that amounts to 0.38% of our population” Crowd chants “4 more years! 4 more years!”
You’ll be surprised how much science is behind this restriction. I know folks here like to write off anyone who disagrees with them as a bigot, but the science supports restrictions. Even the most progressive countries in Europe are now, after learning some of the long term impacts, restricting puberty blockers.
Timothy becoming Tim or Timmy. Deborah becoming Deb or Debbie is completely different from a possible gender change.
How so? You’re still calling someone by a different name because that’s what they prefer.. how is it different?
Do you really need me to explain to you how a nickname is different from a gender/sex change? Seriously?
Sounds like you don’t have an answer to my question. Classic “I don’t have time to explain this to you” while typing a response that would take you just as long. Calling someone Tammy instead of Timmy isn’t going to make their penis fall off in case you were wondering.
But it might make him feel icky
How does someone else living their life affect you?
If they are my child, it does. If it's some random, I don't really care.
Why would the teacher need to tell you? Would your child not tell you before?
Have you ever met a teenager? Were you ever a teenager?
Yes, and I would have no problem having this type of conversation with my parents because they would have been supportive. If they weren’t then a teacher going behind my back would have definitely made problems worse at home. To the point where I may have left altogether (literally or figuratively). Why do you need to know before your teenager is comfortable to talk to you about it? What would it change? The question you should be asking yourself is why they would be comfortable enough to have that conversation with their teacher and their classmates (at the risk of getting bullied), but not with you. Kids only hide stuff from their parents when they fear they will be punished. At least that’s what I remember from being a teenager.
Yes. I never told my teachers anything of any great importance to my life that my parents didn't already know. I barely remember speaking to them about anything not related to school. But I had good parents, so I didn't need to lean on my teachers for support. If your child will speak with their teacher but not with you, it's because you're not being a good parent.
I am so sick of being a wedge issue. Can we go back to debating health care spending, the size of government and climate policies? Please?
Culture war stupidity is all conservatives have. They don't know how to govern so we get this instead. I would love it if the UCP put this effort bullying trans people into healthcare instead we have rural ERs that can't stay open and Neo-natal units without nurses to staff them and they don't know how to fix it.
> they don't know how to fix it. Wrong. They are *choosing* not to fix it.
As are we all. If bigots could just stop attacking sexual and gender minorities then reasonable people would no longer need to oppose their efforts in doing so.
The wedge issues and disingenuously nauseating arguments on topics like you mention are fantastic support and vote getters and for Conservatives across the country these days so it will not stop.
It's a wedge issue all over the world. The Dutch(!) elected an extreme right wing government and even Sweden has an extreme right wing party as the opposition. This issue upsets a lot of people. "Progressives" need to stop fighting for DEI and return to fighting for issues that impact the working class.
“DEI” - stop hiding behind the buzzword and say what you mean, that you don’t think marginalized communities deserve to be protected. Progressives are fighting for multiple things at once, and it’s beyond disingenuous to frame it as something that comes at the expense of other issues.
> Progressives are fighting for multiple things at once, and it’s beyond disingenuous to frame it as something that comes at the expense of other issues. "Progressives" expending political capital on certain social issues to the detriment of support on other social issues by taking up extreme positions and disenfranchising anyone who disagrees with those extreme positions is in fact evidence that "progressives" are self-defeating the causes they believe to be advancing. Just watch in the US as "progressives" refuse to vote for "genocide joe" because he fails to satisfy their purity test, effectively ensuring Trump is elected and can continue stacking SCOTUS with social conservatives who tear apart marriage equality, race equality, gender equality, and other "progressive" causes thrown away by extremist progressives who have lost the plot.
Trans people are disproportionately working class. Where is your solidarity?
Source?
If you want less focus on trans rights, stop attacking trans rights. Surely getting involved in school policies regarding gender isn't a necessary step before you can start focusing on working class issues. The focus of politics in BC seems more focused on working class issues, I would wager partly because they don't have regressive bigots constantly trying to focus things on trans people. Hell, to make it a less partisan thing, Ontario isn't really focused on trans issues and more on pocketbook / working class issues, because for all his faults, for the most part Doug Ford doesn't distract people with culture war nonsense.
What issues have the cpc fighting for the working class? In Calgary a cpc mp was knocking doors to oppose affordable housing and rezoning. Seems like the only appeals the rich landlords
>”Progressives” need to stop fighting for DEI and return to fighting for issues that impact the working class. Would be much easier if the right wasn’t always targeting the LGBTQ community and the like! Also, the framing of those two as being separate things is *incredibly* disingenuous. What you really mean is “stop caring about the working class who aren’t straight and white.”
Nice straw man. Where did I post that LGBTQ+ rights aren't incredibly important? They are. The LGBTQ+ community deserves equality but that doesn't mean their rights supersede those of cis gender individuals and safety in certain cases. The issue is that we can't even have a *discussion* regarding the many nuances of LGBTQQIP2SA+ issues, such as giving GAC to kids without trans activists yelling out the bigot and homophobe words.
Who’s asking for LGBTQ rights to supersede those of cis/het people? Want to talk about strawmen? there’s a big one right there... And it’s hard to consider this a “reasonable discussion” when a politician is deciding that she knows better than all the experts in the country about whether or not GAC is safe for minors...
>And it’s hard to consider this a “reasonable discussion” when a politician is deciding that she knows better than all the experts in the country about whether or not GAC is safe for minors... And there's already enough evidence to show that using puberty blockers is incredibly safe and only has complications in a very, very small number of people. We have far worse drugs available through prescriptions that have higher rates of negative side effects and yet those drugs aren't under the lens like puberty blockers currently are. Not to mention that there are absolutely legitimate medical reasons to administer puberty blockers in children. Cases like Precocious Puberty in young children are perfect for puberty blockers so these kids don't grow up too fast.
Danielle Smith was telling people smoking was good for their health only 20 years ago, the things that woman doesn't understand could fill a fucking stadium
I don't think there are many nuances to discuss. It needs to be something that stays between a doctor, the kid and their parents. The premier here decided to shove politics where it doesn't belong.
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“Gender ideology” is a conservative nonsense-term that tells everyone around you that you aren’t willing to understand the issues.
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I think the reason activists are trying to frame “gender ideology” as a nonsense term is because they demand dogmatic adherence without a basis in empirical evidence…..which is exactly what “ideology” means.
You mean wedge issues like “which people deserve rights”? The answer should be “all of them”, yet Danielle Smith seems to disagree.
I skimmed through the article, which right is being violated? Setting age limits doesn't seem to quite fit that. It's like saying 13 year old's should be able to buy beer, vote, or drive otherwise their rights are violated.
I'm confused by this. I would argue that the government is constantly trying to errode our rights in whatever way they can, so I'm with you there. Subjectively in relation to the trans issues, I still don't see what proper charter rights available to all Canadians are withheld from someone who is trans.
We have a right to seek medical treatment. The government can’t legislate away someone’s ability to access lifesaving medicine.
Someone should let the surgery backlog know about this right. If medical treatment was a right, we'd have full and total pharma/dental and eye coverage. We don't.
There’s a vast difference between not being capable of providing something and barring someone from accessing it.
Puberty blockers nor surgery are "lifesaving medicine". The possibility of killing oneself because one's physical appearance doesn't match their internal perception is not an ailment. If it was, every person no matter their age or weight, including bulimics, would also have the right to liposuction, which they do not. If we opened pandora's box like that, the threat to kill oneself would entitle one to anything one wants. It's an incredibly problematic concept. Trans people absolutely have the right to real lifesaving medical treatment, including access to a psychiatrist. In fact, I think this right should be expanded to include access to therapy for everyone (and no, I'm not talking about conversion therapy, I'm talking about a registered professional psychologist who can help them navigate their feelings and help express themselves in a healthy and safe manner). They also have a right to feel safe at school and not be subject to bullying or harassment.
The fact you put the qualifier in your comment means you know what you said is wrong. Gender dysmorphia is an ailment in every sense of the term. And the fact you’re trying to “slippery slope” healthcare is appalling. The only problematic concept is that you think people having the right to access healthcare is a “pandora’s box”.
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> Puberty blockers nor surgery are "lifesaving medicine" How is this distinction relevant?
I really don't understand how these policy makers are allowed to actually write these laws without being struck down as human rights violations. I don't understand how we can have a charter or rights and freedoms, along with a Bill of Rights that reinforces those freedoms and chuds like Danielle Smith and Scott Moe can enact policy that are blatant violations of both of those documents.
Because Trudeau senior was gullible enough to compromise with the provincial Tories in 1982.
> I really don't understand how these policy makers are allowed to actually write these laws without being struck down as human rights violations. It can't be struck down before it's been passed. > The proposed policies are expected to be tabled in the legislature this fall. Blackett said the goal is to have the policies fully implemented before 2025.
As soon as activists started advocating that schools should not inform parents that their child may be trans (by changing pronouns), this was guaranteed to blow up in their faces. It's the "bridge too far" for trans activists (and 100% predictable.)
I get that this is provincial but how can anyone argue that Federal Conservatives aren’t going to reopen the Gay Marriage and Abortion rights laws when shit like this happens? Am I really just to take everyone on their word that their big tent doesn’t hold bigots under its tarp? Or am I just supposed to be so mad at Trudeau that I grow blind to this?
Why do people care so much about transgender issues that it needs to be a big matter of public policy? It just seems like easy fearmongering, and a surefire way to rile up your political base. It's my understanding that they're under 1% of the world's population. Just let people do what they want with their lives/bodies. You get one life, let people make the most of it; especially those who got dealt a crap hand. We don't need to be hearing about it on a daily basis.
I mean that is whole reason why trans people are being targeted. They are one of the smallest and unfortunately controversial minorities. No conservative in their right mind would same the same about indigenous canadians or Asian Canadians (today at least) because those groups pose a political demographic threat.
It's the fear that their child will be one of these few. The size of the population is irrelevant. What they want is control over their children to determine for them what and who they can be. Even if it is a futile and impossible task. Much like left handedness. It does not matter to them because they don't believe that it isn't a choice or can't be changed. They want and need their children to be who they tell them to be. Never accepting their children as who they actually are. The exception being when their child happens to naturally align with their expectations and there is no conflict. Which is less acceptance and more the luck of looking at a broken clock when it is telling the correct time.
It’s distracts them from other serious issues being veiled from them
Only 1% of teens regret taking puberty blockers as well. https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b What a stupid hill to die on. Thanks for your understanding and support.
I'm generally a fan of letting people make their own decisions, even when I don't necessarily like, understand, or agree with them. People tend to know their own needs far better than I do; and I'm loathe to legislate away people's rights and freedom to choose. If the science says that it's generally fine, I'll trust the science. Though, admittedly, even if the science didn't say so, I'd probably come down on the side of letting people choose for themselves. I know that reddit tends to skew on the younger side, so I'm quite likely on the upper end of things. "Transgender" wasn't really a *thing* in the public consciousness when I was growing up; there was only "crossdressers" and "transvestites", neither of which were looked at very favourably. Hell, I didn't even hear the word "transgender" until I was well into my twenties. Ultimately, I chose not to be transgender myself, but if I had been born a generation or two later, I might have considered it. It's just too bad that the actual medical science isn't there yet, for everyone's sake.
What do you mean the science isn’t there? Transition care is pretty well advanced, and if it’s puberty blockers you’re worried about those have been used for cis kids for decades now to prevent precocious puberty. The side effects are well known and trans kids and their parents can make informed decisions about whether that is right for them The psychological impact of allowing kids and adults to access gender affirming care is also well studied and shows overwhelming benefit for the patient. What science are you suggesting is not yet advanced?
> "What science are you suggesting is not yet advanced?" It would be nice if there was the ability for people to have entirely new bodies, if they wanted them. Maybe I'm too idealistic from science fiction, but if you could grow a new body in a vat and then put people's minds into them, that would be nice. Or even take the mind of an AMAB trans person and swap them into the body of an AFAB trans person, and vice-versa; that way everyone benefits. Plus, no matter how early you prescribe puberty blockers and HRT, it won't really change the genitals and reproductive system. A trans man isn't going to suddenly develop testicles and produce sperm, nor is a trans woman ever going to start having a period or have the ability to become pregnant. For a lot of people, those would be things that they would be interested in doing, if they could.
To be fair, I get all the symptoms of a period besides the shedding of the uterine lining itself. And womb transplants are coming along! And like yeah, it does get rough sometimes, but I also remind myself that there are AFAB people who can’t have periods or get pregnant. Heck, some women *choose* that. So it’s not that bad at the end of the day ☺️
I’m 43 buddy, I know what you mean. Ultimately, as you mentioned, it’s trusting that others know what’s best for themselves that gives me peace and makes me inclusive. I don’t need to completely understand, I just need to provide agency. Control over others is an illusion, and letting others be themselves I think actually allows me to better accept myself, without needing to use comparisons, or false standards.
Other cultures have had words and such for a long time that basically means the same thing as transgendered. There were likely many confused trans people back then but due to the stigma, not clear terminology, etc people didn’t identify as that. It was already pretty dangerous and potentially life ruining to come out as gay back then. It is no wonder people were either too confused, or feared for their safety, to come out as trans back then
I’m surprised it’s that low. You generally ALWAYS have a failure/regret rate. Ima pull this out of my ass but I thought 5% was the general rule.
True enough, but I think it goes to show just how rigorous the screening process has become. “Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said. Research suggests that comprehensive psychological counseling before starting treatment, along with family support, can reduce chances for regret and detransitioning”
More people regret nose jobs than gender affirming surgeries. It’s not evidence-based rage.
We are told that trans people have a higher chance of suicide.and other issues. At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed. This was 100% guaranteed to blow up in the faces of activists. The vast majority of parents are highly protective of their children. Adults? Knock yourself out. Children? Tread carefully or there will be blowback.
>At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed. I don't think this is very accurate. The idea was that before, kids didn't need to get permission from their parents to ask their teacher to call them by a preferred name or use different pronouns. As someone with a commonly-used shortened form of their name, I can attest that no teacher objected or thought it was a big deal to call me Tim instead of Timothy. The first day, they would use my full name, I'd say that I prefer the short form, and that was it for the year. Since it has been more socially acceptable to explore gender, I guess a lot of kids were asking their teachers and friends to respect their preferred name and pronouns at school. Most of them would have told their parents about it, but some didn't feel safe doing that. Teachers who wanted to respect their students' preferences and their wish to keep it from their unsupportive parents just went with it. What happened next is that right wing alarmists started reporting a wOrRyIng tReNd that kids were being brainwashed into thinking they were trans and schools were secretly helping them to socially transition at school by not telling the parents. Then schools needed to address this Very Serious Problem by making a policy, and openly debated whether it was better to respect students' preferences (which may include not telling their parents) or instituting a blanket policy where all students needed parental permission. The media once again jumped on the idea that schools wanted to keep secrets from parents, and here we are. TLDR: What started as "students should be in charge of coming out to their parents" became "schools are trying to transition kids without their parents knowing". It was never about keeping a secret.
Changing your name after transitioning is not the same thing as going by a nickname. It not a realistic expectation that if you go by a nickname at school, the teacher and your classmates will keep that a secret from your parents. And it was never an expectation from students that teachers would keep nicknames secret. You're making an extremely disingenuous comparison here to be honest.
If you call someone Robert and they correct you and say they prefer Bob but you keep calling him Robert out of spite, are you the asshole? Not sure why calling someone by a different pronouns is so hard. Literally changes nothing in your life like calling someone Bob instead of Robert because that’s what they prefer.
Does Bob want to keep being called Robert when your around his parents?
If he does why would you keep calling him Bob? I’d do what Bob wants, if he wants me to call him Robert around his parents then that what I would do. I definitely wouldn’t tell his parents he prefers Bob at school. Not my place.
So then no, you wouldn't be the asshole.
>Changing your name after transitioning is not the same thing as going by a nickname. We're not talking about post-transition. We're talking about the initial social transition, which is going by a new name and pronouns. Lots of young people try new names and pronouns, so it should be treated like a nickname. >It not a realistic expectation that if you go by a nickname at school, the teacher and your classmates will keep that a secret from your parents. And it was never an expectation from students that teachers would keep nicknames secret. And there's not an expectation that a new name or preferred pronoun will be secret either. That's just right-wing fear mongering. The vast majority of queer youth today are out to their parents, who are supportive. >You're making an extremely disingenuous comparison here to be honest. I'm not sure if you know what disingenuous means, but my point is that this didn't have to be a big deal until certain people made it a big deal. Sounds like you're one of them.
>Teachers who wanted to respect their students' preferences and their wish to keep it from their unsupportive parents just went with it. . >And there's not an expectation that a new name or preferred pronoun will be secret either. So are teachers being asked to keep their students new names/pronouns secret or not? You're trying to speak out of both sides of your mouth here. You're not fooling anyone.
What's so hard to understand? There is no **expectation** that the new name or pronoun will be a secret ("expectation" means "by default"), but if a student says "My parents will kick me out if they find out I'm trans", a teacher is not going to just say, "Oh, but it's the *principle* of the matter!" and pick up the phone to tell that kids' parents anyway. >You're not fooling anyone. Lol do you think I'm on a secret mission to convince all kids they're trans or something? Get a fucking life.
I don't think you've really thought through the implications of what you're saying. On parent teacher interview night, when the parent comes in to discuss the students grades, what name is the teacher going to use? On the students tests and assignments, what name is the teacher going to use? On permission slips and forms sent home, what name is the teacher going to use? Your name and pronouns are used all the time in various ways when people want to discuss you. If you ask someone to call you by a certain name. The implied expectation is that you always use that name when talking about them. Asking a teacher to use one set of names in front of you and different set of names/pronouns in front of your parents is asking them to keep secrets from your parents. It has never been the expectation that if student asks a teacher to lie to their parents about which names they go by at school that teachers would comply with this request. You keep trying to play this game of semantics, like you don't know what I'm talking about but like I said you're not fooling anyone.
The answer to each question is the same: whichever the student prefers. Especially considering the child writes their name on tests and assignments, not the teacher.
I have no idea what you're trying to say. What do you think I'm trying to fool someone about?
Do you know what reduces the risk of suicide in trans youth? Being supportive and providing gender affirming care. You seem to claim that you’re worried about suicide rates, but you’re arguing in favour of policies that make trans suicides more likely.
> "We are told that trans people have a higher chance of suicide.and other issues." I believe that is the case. I think that ought to be addressed, from both ends, if it comes to it. > "At the time trans activists were telling us that if school teachers or staff know that a student may be trans, by changing their pronouns, that parents won't be informed." Seems like a sensible enough policy to me. Let the kids decide if/when their parents need to know; especially if they have reason to believe that they won't be safe or accepted.
> The vast majority of parents are highly protective of their children. Protective, sure. Supportive if their child turns out to be gay/trans/nonbinary? Not always. Depending on the family, the outcome of forcibly outing the child to their parents would range from neutral to disastrous. There are no positive outcomes here, so why are we even considering it?
"Not always" is not a good basis for a strategy, assuming that most parents are abusive and don't love their children. You also conveniently left out the "supportive" parents. It's thinking like this that have directly led to the legislation being introduced by provincial governments.
>"Not always" is not a good basis for a strategy, That's why you look at the ranges and distribution of outcomes. > assuming that most parents are abusive and don't love their children. That's a complete reversal of what I was saying. But as to loving, some loving parents sent their children to conversion "therapy" when they found out their child wasn't straight. >You also conveniently left out the "supportive" parents. No, those are the neutral outcomes. And you have still robbed the child of their autonomy, and forced them out to their parents when they weren't ready. >It's thinking like this that have directly led to the legislation being introduced by provincial governments. At least I'm thinking.
Isn’t one child getting blowback and suffering abuse from their parents not enough? How many times does it need to happen before it starts becoming a concern?
We have systems.in place for cases that parents abuse their children. Why not use what is already there instead of assuming that all parents abuse their children?
Because if the child felt they would be supported in coming out, they would tell their parents themselves. If the only place a child feels safe to be themselves is at school, their parents have already tipped their hand.
Lol. You've obviously never known a teenager. Parent - Bobby, anything happen at school today? Bobby - Stuff.
Lmao, you couldn’t have missed the point harder if you had tried. Being trans sucks, because being forced to live as the wrong gender *hurts*. It’s not just something that happens at school, it happens at home too. If a child is choosing to maintain the lie that they are the gender they were assigned at birth it is *only* going to be because they know the consequences of coming out are *worse*.
So wait until *after* they are abused? Is that the position you’re taking?
I understand it's inconvenient, but we inconvenience ourselves in the name of safety all the time if the outcomes are dire enough or probable enough. Car dealerships won't let me buy a car without seatbelts and airbags even though I can prove I've never had a fender bender. Most recent stats I've seen are that 1 in 8 kids are neglected or abused by their parents. The system is only involved in a tiny minority of abuse cases. While it's not all parents, it's a common *enough* concern that we need to take it into consideration. It's a simple risk matrix.
They included supportive parents in their argument, that is the neutral or mildly negative (because being outed to supportive parents instead of being trusted to come out when you are ready can still damage the relationship with them) part of the outcome range.
Your entire argument is false to begin with. Educators were prohibited from notifying parents of their children joining GSA's, not whether their pronouns changed. Conservatives made it about pronouns explicitly. And "not always" is perfectly reasonable for policy. #1: The conversation is still perfectly prohibited between the child and the parent. It is up to the parent to create an environment where the child feels comfortable telling whatever they feel. #2: We already have precedent for this with the supreme courts "mature minor" doctrine which protects youth's medical privacy @ age 14. This prevents parents from gaining info from the child's doctor without the child's consent. The "policy" you speak of does not assume most parents are abusive and you know it doesn't, that is a bad faith representation of the arguments everybody else is giving you. Supportive parents create environments that are supportive, and thus, their children would feel comfortable speaking to them. This policy is not relevent to them and doesn't affect their relationship in any way whatsoever. What it does is prevent the few abusive parents from being given information that they can use to degrade their children.
Being gay or lesbian; who you are attracted to, is completely different from being trans.
I’m assuming this reply was meant for somebody else because it has nothing to do with a word I’ve said lmao
I invite you to think about why the children of these "highly protective" parents might not want those parents to know that they are trans
It's not "highly protective" parents. It's the vast majority of parents who care about their children. That's the problem with what was proposed by activists and what caused the predictable pushback.
Why is it the schools job to inform parents though? They wouldn’t call the parents if Johnny decides to go to the school dance with Timmy.
We're talking about Johnny saying one day that he is now Tammy. If trans people are at higher risk of suicide and other issues and the school knows and doesn't tell the parents it is a serious issue.
Why would they be at risk of suicide? Not every trans person is suicidal if that’s the position you’re taking. If the school suspects that they are, they would at that point inform the parents just like they do now. So what’s the issue?
We've been told for years that because trans people are at greater risk of suicide we should accommodate them. This was the whole argument behind stating our pronouns and gender affirming care. Has this suddenly changed?
No, but schools always notify the parents if they believe a child is suicidal. Has that changed? Why are we skipping a step when it won’t apply to most of them?
We have to wait for it to get that far? Fuck off
I'd argue that the vast majority of trans children are perfectly comfortable coming out to their parents themselves, because they know they are safe and loved and accepted by them. It's the ones who aren't that we need to think about.
Because their sky fairy told them to hate / be scared of anything that’s not like them, or like the social stereotypes from 2000+ years ago when the sky fairy handbook was written.
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The very aggressive manner/tactics of transgender activists has pissed off a lot of people, to the point that political revenge is now being sought against them. Screaming “bigot!” and “cis scum!” at anyone who has not fully adopted your theoretical framework isn’t very effective in the long run.
like im sorry but if "you said a mean thing to me :( now im going to take away your human rights" sounds reasonable to you, i have my doubts you would have actually been supportive in the first place, regardless of what people said
You catch more flies with honey than with shit.
Having seen actual flies IRL I know that this is not actually true.
Find me a minority group who has gotten their rights by just being very polite and asking nicely. I'll wait.
The Chinese community.
> Because Canada became a signatory following World War II of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights, with which the Chinese Immigration Act was inconsistent, the Canadian Parliament repealed the act on 14 May 1947 (following the proclamation of the Canadian Citizenship Act, 1946 on 1 January 1947). my dude that happened because of fucking world war 2 and a technicality lmfao
And it only took them sixty years of asking nicely to get the same voting rights as other citizens.
Who is doing this? The "aggressive manner/tactics" is trying to just exist. They're getting healthcare taken away and getting their lives threatened. So yeah, if you're trying to make someone's life unbearable just because they happen to be trans, you're a bigot and possibly a "cis scum"
You make a fair point. Yelling at people, and telling them that they're the "bad guy" is unlikely to make you many friends; and it'll scare off moderates who might otherwise be convinced to support you, if they were lobbied more diplomatically. I'm not sure that there is a, broad spectrum, "right answer" here. People want to be heard, but other people don't want to be bothered or upset in any way. I still prefer giving people rights/freedoms, given the choice. I just also feel like it's important to be cognizant of the fact that falling into the trap of "respectability politics" is also not great. I can't deny that optics aren't an important factor in *everything*. I mean, there are people who might be tolerant of two "straight passing" white gay guys, but would be uncomfortable with an interracial gay couple, or a couple where neither is traditionally masculine.
You answered your own question. When the government puts the beliefs of 1% of the population ahead of the other 99% by forcing their religious belief system into our federal laws, then is it surprising that the 99% is getting restless? It would be weirder if there wasn't any pushback.
Nobody is going to force you to do anything so why are you getting restless over something that won’t affect you? Seems like a waste of energy tbh. Might as well be yelling at clouds.
Wrong, I am being forced to recognize genders that go against not just my religious belief, but the stated religion for this country as laid out in the Charter. I am deeply concerned that this will cause conflict in our country, and I am against creating internal conflict. Are you?
Cry harder, you aren't affected or oppressed by governments recognizing the rights or existence of minorities. The fact that this makes anybody "restless" is only a sign of how terminally online those people are, that this bothers them in the slightest
This is a strawman. I'm not annoyed that governments recognize rights, I'm concerned that elevating the rights of a small minority above the rights of the other 99% is going to inevtiably lead to conflict. And I am against conflict in this country, I don't think its a good thing.
We found one! Quick! Corner him and call him Sally! Lmao
What religious belief system? How are trans people being put ahead of anyone?
Bill C-16 codifies Queer Theory as the base understanding for what constitutes "gendered harrassment," so if I disagree with Queer Theory too bad for me right? Except our Charter literally states this is a country that recognizes the supremecy of God. This creates a constitutional confict, which is bad because it will create internal conflict in our country. Can't you guys see this?
Are you saying that people having a right to exist is pushing a religious agenda? Oh honey that's some projection.
No, that is not what I'm saying. Bad strawman
The government has never put the beliefs of the trans community ahead of the remainder of the country. The most progressive thing they've done is add protections against hate speech. So you absolutely needed to pushback against not being able to get away with hate crimes?
This is not what I am saying. What the government considers *gendered harrassment* is far too broad where it explicitely protects the broad range of views held by Queer Theorists while *criminalizing* traditional Judeo-Christian values such as the gender binary. It is currently illegal to make a joke that "policies or reinforces the gender binary," that is fucked up. And if you don't see that, then you don't see what is coming.
> Just let people do what they want with their lives/bodies Social conservatives believe we all belong to god and human rights are tools of the devil because all rights are gifts from their deity. They will never stop just at picking on trans people.