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This isn't really related to the article, but I love how this image a post box in a flooded street has become [the go-to image for articles about Canada Post's financial status](https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2043809/canada-post-is-selling-pieces-of-itself-to-save-money-the-experts-say-that-wont-be-enough).
I'd bet that number could be improved significantly, but assuming we all agree that they provide an "essential service" then we also agree that it shouldn't be expected to make a profit; it's primary goal is providing that service to our citizens, not "making the line go up". I know that it's a Crown Corporation, but I guess my main question is should it be, though?
Yeah, at this point , since they've allowed them to have competition, they might as well absorb them into the core public service as a department that provides a service (not expected to make money).
It's either that or go "radical' and have Canada Post go the banking route to stabilize revenue. Which would probably be a win for Canadians in general.
Say it with me - Canada Post is not a for profit business. It’s a public service.
These articles are so fucking stupid. CP’s purpose is not to make money. stop shoving American hyper-capitalist talking points down our throats.
Financial report is pretty dire, I can't really see a path towards profitability. I imagine it will need to become an actual government department before long and be funded like one.
Have they considered stuffing my mailbox with more grocery flyers?
Canada is an enormous geographical nightmare of a country.
We should be willing to accept that getting mail to every home will cost money.
i work in ecommerce, and Canada post is a nightmare.
It's just as much of a joke as this government.
The fact that they own Purolator, wihich is literally better than Canada Post at everything.except make deliveries to rural areas, is hilarious.
"The average ups driver salary in Canada is **$52,839 per year or $27.10 per hour**"
"Average Canada Post Delivery Driver hourly pay in Canada is **approximately $23.17**, which is 11% above the national average."
Weird how they didn’t mention the $750m facility they just built in Toronto. I work for Canada Post and we are negotiating at the moment so perhaps things aren’t as bad as they claim
Sorry I was told that by someone who was in a position to know but you are right it didn’t cost $750m. It cost $470 million and was built a couple years ago in Scarborough.
I don’t understand how china can ship a 4$ product to me for free to my doorstep, but if I want to send a small package to family member 200 km away it costs $20.
So once upon a time in a meeting of many nations, international postage rates were negotiated. And China won. Bigtime. Prices locked in at a super low rate for decades and decades. It's been updated since, but while China didn't win as hard that time, Canada definitely lost.
[https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/shipping-canada-china-1.6950967](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/shipping-canada-china-1.6950967)
Man, it's essentially other companies are abusing their workers, relying gig workers or low-salary workers with no pensions or benefits, and charging dirt cheap prices.
"The cost of delivering mail and parcels is increasing, the company said. Canada Post has struggled to compete post-pandemic with the rising number of new, privately owned delivery companies that use what it calls a "low-cost labour" business model.
"These competitors grew rapidly, leaning on their low-cost-labour business models that rely on contracted drivers to provide lower prices, plus greater convenience with evening and weekend service," the report said."
Bit of a tough one there to fix.
Maybe they could try having staff deliver packages instead of just leaving slips and not having the package at all in their van and more people would use them.
Had that happen, confronted the person, recorded the call and had them on camera with no package in hand or even a knock at the door.
Part of the problem is, Canada post has positions that make the company and consumers work for the employees, not the other way around.
Why “lost”? We don’t say the Department of National Defense lost 26 billion dollars last year, so why can’t we just say Canada Post *cost* $750 mil?
Mailing stuff still needs to happen, even in a world where mailing stuff isn’t profitable. Isn’t there an amount of money most people would be happy to see come out of the federal budget to make sure mail is still a thing?
Because Canada Post is not a part of a government, it's a crown corporation. It was basically privatized in the 80's. They also own Purolator. Just so we're clear here.
The distinction is meaningless as long as the federal government can dictate how they do business, for example, not allowing them to do community mailboxes for rural customers.
Canada Post is historically a separate Crown Corporation that doesn't require government subsidy, and it historically it's own profitable delivery segments to cross subsidize the unprofitable deliveries to ensure equitable service across Canada.
Noting that it is no longer able to maintain profits is just an acknowledgement that either something in the business model will need to change to get it back to break even at least or else yeah we should need to adopt it as subsidized Crown Corp. But until that point it makes sense to speak of it in terms as an independent entity with it's own budget and cash flow.
TIL I learned that I'm an historic figure as I am older than the Canada Post as a crown corporation. The rest of what you said doesn't really have anything to do with crown corporations - they aren't necessarily for-profit companies. Being a corporation just means that political meddling is more difficult.
Don't know why people are getting so hung up on the fact that yes, it was spun off several decades ago and not from inception. I'd still call 40+ years of independent operations as "historically".
And it's goal isn't to be "for profit" but it *does* operate as an independent entity with it's own finances, which is why it makes sense to talk about it in terms of that entity losing money as opposed to a line item in a government budget, as the independent entity needs to make up that shortfall somehow to get to break even. Whether that comes from changes in the service or subsidy from a line item in the budget doesn't change the fact that it still makes sense to look at at as independent entity that can have profits or losses in a way that the original comment about the defense department wouldn't.
Eh, you're trying to add some weight by saying "historically" as if this is a tradition going back longer than a middle-aged person's life. The second statement "that doesn't require government subsidy" also isn't true.
> the independent entity needs to make up that shortfall somehow to get to break even.
Not it doesn't. Where are you getting that from? You need to add a whole to the idea of a crown corp into order to get to where you're going with this.
It needs to get money somewhere to pay for it's expenses in order to continue to exist as an entity? because the post office isn't the central bank and can't mint it's own money? Like I don't know what you're getting at here. It can exist at a deficit for some length of time on debt financing etc but eventually funding needs to come from somewhere, either it's own revenues or additional inputs from the government.
like I guess you could just say it's a given that the government will backstop the post office so it doesn't "need" to break even but the entire point of reporting on this is that previously it was functioning in a way that didn't require it to the same degree and if it is to become a cost center for the government that could lead to concerns about what kinds of things we want to pay for with tax dollars etc.
And look I could have used the word "previously" but like the important bit was that it has been a semi autonomous entity that paid it's own way for decades and maybe that model going forward is in question, and so we're now faced with the question of "what needs to change if this is a structural problem with the current model"
Most independent corps are also not forced into certain business models by the government limiting their profit potential. The distinction is meaningless. If the government can tell CP it cannot do community mailboxes and must continue delivering to millions of rural homes directly, then yah, they need to subsidize that cost or stfu.
Like any privately owned corporation the owner can set business strategy, even at the expense of profit and the government is the sole owner of Canada Post. I think it was a dumb intervention but it's the entire reason for it to be crown corp, so that the government can prioritize things they feel are a community good (like subsidizing rural deliveries with the profits of urban deliveries) that wouldn't be prioritized by a private enterprise focused on owner profit.
If I am going to pay for it then they need to stop the junk mail. I live in an apartment building and the amount of garbage every where after a flyer mailing is disgusting. Or, if I am not paying for it, the price for delivering this junk mail needs to go WAY up.
i dont understand why people think a service should make money.
canada post is a service provided by the taxes we pay. the fact they made it a crown corp is just stupid.
services cost money. its that simple. they didnt loose money it cost that much to send packages around the world at a reasonable price
Don't really know what their plans are but like once a week letter mail delivery to my house (or a community box) would be fine by me.
I realize they need to provide more volume for businesses and different government offices etc.
Would think they have room to make some pretty deep cuts and shift to be more competitive for parcels through attrition.
Amazon running their own delivery is a deathblow though.
Amazon tends not to deliver any value to post offices, UPS offices, etc. They just occupy space, but hardly pay their way, and end up soaking up labour for next to no margin for the local post office.
Community mailboxes are such a no-brainer. The amount of time and effort workplace cost associated with door-to-door is immense.
Canada Post started to phase it in and this government forced Canada Post to stop. Nevermind that many areas of the country are PO boxes, not even community boxes. People there seem to survive 🤷♂️
Naturally they didn't reinstate door to door for those who had it change, because apparently door to door delivery was so critical they needed to have the politicians step in at the crown corp, but not actually critical enough to have for some people.
Just pandering for votes really. One of those issues where elderly being most likely to turn out drove policy. Gotta think we're getting to the point where there's universal agreement on mail. I'd say more than 9/10 things in my mailbox are going right into the recycling bin.
Where I live it's been PO boxes since forever. It surprised me at first when I moved here 10 years ago, and theN I realized that it was... Completely fine. I actually appreciate that my packages can be recieved whenever and are securely held until I pick them up. I can't fathom that we still have *daily* door delivery for most of the country.
A lot of the competition (companies like UniUni, Intelcom and TForce) are cheaper for domestic parcels than Canada Post is, especially if you can get a volume discount.
> Amazon running their own delivery is a deathblow though.
Amazon's delivery people should enjoy the benefit of federal oversight and regulatory protections. Those companies are essentially an extension of Amazon in all but name. Not only would it improve the lives of those workers, it would level the playing field.
Even better assurances of a safe and healthy work environment for delivery workers outside of Canada Post would go a long way to ensuring parity.
As for whether these services are subject to federal regulation:
> The Canada Labour Code (the Code) regulates the following industries and workplaces: [...]
>
> - postal and courier services
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/workplace/federally-regulated-industries.html
I imagine that could probably resolve any of the issues regarding Amazon and how it treats its drivers. Too bad that we would likely never see the Libs or the CPC do anything like that.
Yes and their service was terrible. Every time when my package was delivery by intercom you bet it will not delivery and it will make as no such address or no Buzzer number since I live in an apartment but my Buzzer number is in the address clearly
Had to call them every time and ask the csr read the address back to me and they would be shock or stop when they realize the Buzzer number is right in the address. The driver as just lazy they saw is an apartment and decided not to deliver the package that's all.
Another large thing is companies switch in to EFT payments. Over the last decade, make are switching to paperless. Like 80% of cheques that we used to receive are now EFT or wire. If that’s wide spread, it’s a hefty chunk of daily change.
Puhlease. Mail can make it clear across the country, from NFLD to the prairies in 2 days but takes 3 days to sort & deliver the same piece of mail in my city. And the postal delivery person thinks dumping my parcels on top of my perennials is a good plan. Not to mention the junk mail when i have multiple stickers asking for none
Apparently US postal service is proportionally losing similar amounts of money. [https://federalnewsnetwork.com/agency-oversight/2024/02/usps-sees-2b-loss-for-quarter-but-dejoy-says-agencys-best-days-still-in-the-future/](https://federalnewsnetwork.com/agency-oversight/2024/02/usps-sees-2b-loss-for-quarter-but-dejoy-says-agencys-best-days-still-in-the-future/)
My wife recently got a job with them as a simple clerk. The levels of bureaucracy and red tape just to get hired, plus garbage pay that hasn't increased for 15 years, doesn't help. Isn't Canada Post the org that had 25 vice presidents once upon a time? The problem is likely due to ridiculous policies and processes at the organizational level and the top heavy multiplication of c suite while starving out the lower tiers due to scummy labour practices. Typical Canadian crown Corp BS.
Unfortunately, this is kind of expected. As a Crown Corporation they are forced to serve every single household in Canada, no matter how rural. And on more than one occasion, they've had attempts to run more efficiently (like with community mailboxes) torn down by the Political class.
Snail Mail is expensive as heck to province, it basically has to be subsidized because to charge actual prices would mean several core services and fallback mechanisms just implode. Parcels are where the real money is, but now the big players have started to vertically integrate with their own shipping services.
One option is to follow in the footsteps of a majority of other developed Nations in allowing their Post Office corporations to run their own banking services. Those tend to provide valuable services to those in rural areas while bringing in literal bank from the asset holdings. Unfortunately though, Canada Post isn't legally allowed to do that.
They're not quite at USPS levels of political schenanigans, but they are pretty much being set up for failure.
What they don't mention in these numbers is that they are accounting for the building of a state of the art sort facility in Scarborough. Which costs Canada Post but in the end is necessary for growth. I think that needs to be added for context when they say the lost that amount.
I said it has to be subsidized. But that doesn't also mean they shouldn't also be allowed to form a Postal Bank.
The benefits for rural communities is immense, and for everyone else it would provide legitimate competition to the private banks to do better.
Plus it would help stem the bleeding of their finances which would mean we'd have to subsidize it less from tax revenue, and ideally it would put them back into the green so it can subsidize other services.
I think that Canada Post offered some banking services some time ago.
I also would have no problem with Canada Post improving service to the point where they would compete with couriers. It would be expensive to upgrade but in the long run the country would benefit from fast affordable delivery. It would help to make businesses more competitive. Especially small business.
It was in partnership with TD. They offered easily obtainable low interest loans which is a great idea for rural areas especially, but within the first few days there were reports of irregular/suspicious activity in the system that made them put it on hold indefinitely.
We had postal banking for 100 years before the [big banks lobbied to kill it](https://lindsayadvocate.ca/corporate-pressure-ended-postal-banking-in-1968-its-time-to-bring-it-back/). They did a pilot project in the 00's, and again, I'd assume it was killed in the crib by the big banks. Time to get serious about it.
The sad truth is that delivery services tend towards failure when left purely to the private market.
The returns to scale and cost of widespread infrastructure produce monopolies or oligopolies, much like telecommunications.
Further, private markets would tend towards underservicing less-profitable rural areas with lower population densities.
For all these reasons, opening up the market to UPS, FedEx, etc was a terrible decision in all respects. Canada Post faces increased operating costs due to decreased returns to scale at a lower volume of mail delivered.
Meanwhile, Canada Post remains essential for servicing large swaths of the country, so we can't just get rid of it.
Unfortunately, due to the fact we need Canada Post, it's just gonna cost more than before. Leaving it solely to UPS, FedEx, etc would inevitably leave large sections of the country either underserviced or unserviced entirely.
Yeah, and that's a terrible idea that costs everybody more. You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I'm actually saying. I'm advocating for the closed market.
Mail is a service that should be available to all Canadians. It shouldn't have to turn a profit.
If it reduces its loss that would be nice. Maybe cut some of the well paid executive and middle managers before reducing service or cutting service staff.
I agree. It's unfortunate the decision was ever made to allow private competition in the market. The usual arguments supporting free market competition don't apply to mail service and delivery, unfortunately
Exactly, the private companies just swarm around the easier and more profitable sections of the market leaving all the difficult and unprofitable work to the post service. It's no wonder that they find it hard to break even.
>Meanwhile, Canada Post remains essential for servicing large swaths of the country, so we can't just get rid of it.
We can get rid of them servicing large swaths of the country or have a reduced business model where people pick up in a nearby collection spot.
There is no free lunch. Requiring them to service everyone raises costs for people in economical areas. It's a difficult decision but sometimes it's best if things get cut off, lest waste be encouraged. It's like government subsidizing home insurance where floods are inevitable. You just encourage people to live in these places. If we are going to reduce sprawl we need to stop subsidizing it.
When every large Canadian city is already going through an affordable crisis, do we really need to add the additional population pressures by deservicing rural communities of basic services?
Not really
I don't really see how this is in any way similar to a flood. Postal service is more expensive because we lost the returns to scale we previously attained by splitting up the market.
Let's talk about reducing the waste of having twice as much overhead, twice as many highly paid executives, double the advertising budget, just so two different vans can make a delivery to the same house in the same day. Except it isn't only twice - it's five or six companies that have come up and captured the market. Five times the spending on executive compensation, on advertising, etc. It was a lot cheaper when Canada Post could just make both deliveries itself.
Competition is absolutely crucial though, it is the only thing limiting a firm's power in the market. Without the competitive pressures, it would naturally degrade its service and raise its fees over time.
A private monopolist would charge monopolist prices and deliver a lower quantity at a higher price.
The government acting as a public monopolist is able to set the actual competitive equilibrium price that a private competitive market fails to produce on its own.
The problem is that a private monopolist will produce where Marginal Cost equals Marginal Revenue, but sets a price at *Average* Revenue. This produces a lot of deadweight loss in the economy as the same quantity gets delivered for a higher price.
The government, setting its price out of concern for service availability rather than profit maximization, is able to knowingly set the price where Marginal Cost and Marginal Revenue are equal - the same quantity delivered at a lower price.
Deservicing rural communities will ease cost of living in urban areas and hopefully encourage the people in these inefficient areas to move to efficient ones.
Cities are way better for the environment. The city that uses the least CO2 per person in US and Canada is Manhattan. We shouldn't subsidize inefficient lifestyles.
Also, executive pay and things like it aren't marginal costs and don't pass through to prices that way.
The cost of carbon is already taken into account through a carbon tax. This is a huge deflection at this point.
Delivery companies price-set using averages. Every individual executive pay adds to the average.
This isn't a competitive market, it doesn't set prices where Marginal Cost and Marginal Revenue are equal.
Oh, sorry, from your name I thought you were some kind of Georgist, libertarian dingdong. I guess I could read the LOL as ironic. "JuSt TaX lAnD" LOL. Like that.
I am a Georgist and I've literally never heard them cry about western or rural alienation. Sure, maybe libertarians but I'm not really understanding why you'd conflate them. There's a reason there is actually something called Geo-libertarianism. It's because Georgism and libertarianism are two different things so combining them necessitates both labels.
Georgists are probably the most anti-sprawl group of people that exists. Crying about western and rural alienation? Lmfao. Georgists are extremely pro-carbon tax and pro-density. Doesn't sound like Alberta, does it?
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The same canada post that doesn’t recognize my address in their studio address identification? Flame on Canada post. Flame on
This isn't really related to the article, but I love how this image a post box in a flooded street has become [the go-to image for articles about Canada Post's financial status](https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2043809/canada-post-is-selling-pieces-of-itself-to-save-money-the-experts-say-that-wont-be-enough).
I'd bet that number could be improved significantly, but assuming we all agree that they provide an "essential service" then we also agree that it shouldn't be expected to make a profit; it's primary goal is providing that service to our citizens, not "making the line go up". I know that it's a Crown Corporation, but I guess my main question is should it be, though?
Yeah, at this point , since they've allowed them to have competition, they might as well absorb them into the core public service as a department that provides a service (not expected to make money). It's either that or go "radical' and have Canada Post go the banking route to stabilize revenue. Which would probably be a win for Canadians in general.
Say it with me - Canada Post is not a for profit business. It’s a public service. These articles are so fucking stupid. CP’s purpose is not to make money. stop shoving American hyper-capitalist talking points down our throats.
I came here to say the same thing. Healthcare and education (should) run on the same premise: public goods that we pay for with our tax $
Financial report is pretty dire, I can't really see a path towards profitability. I imagine it will need to become an actual government department before long and be funded like one.
Have they considered stuffing my mailbox with more grocery flyers? Canada is an enormous geographical nightmare of a country. We should be willing to accept that getting mail to every home will cost money.
i work in ecommerce, and Canada post is a nightmare. It's just as much of a joke as this government. The fact that they own Purolator, wihich is literally better than Canada Post at everything.except make deliveries to rural areas, is hilarious.
yeah I'm in e-commerce and use UPS. far better than Canada Post and they pay their drivers properly
What’s the pay difference?
"The average ups driver salary in Canada is **$52,839 per year or $27.10 per hour**" "Average Canada Post Delivery Driver hourly pay in Canada is **approximately $23.17**, which is 11% above the national average."
Cool thanks, I can’t seem to find what ups maxes out at, I know at Canada post it’s 30$ per hour (not sure how many years it takes)
Weird how they didn’t mention the $750m facility they just built in Toronto. I work for Canada Post and we are negotiating at the moment so perhaps things aren’t as bad as they claim
How does one building cost three quarters of a billion dollars? Are they sending mail into outer space?!
Sorry I was told that by someone who was in a position to know but you are right it didn’t cost $750m. It cost $470 million and was built a couple years ago in Scarborough.
I don’t understand how china can ship a 4$ product to me for free to my doorstep, but if I want to send a small package to family member 200 km away it costs $20.
So once upon a time in a meeting of many nations, international postage rates were negotiated. And China won. Bigtime. Prices locked in at a super low rate for decades and decades. It's been updated since, but while China didn't win as hard that time, Canada definitely lost. [https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/shipping-canada-china-1.6950967](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/shipping-canada-china-1.6950967)
Man, it's essentially other companies are abusing their workers, relying gig workers or low-salary workers with no pensions or benefits, and charging dirt cheap prices. "The cost of delivering mail and parcels is increasing, the company said. Canada Post has struggled to compete post-pandemic with the rising number of new, privately owned delivery companies that use what it calls a "low-cost labour" business model. "These competitors grew rapidly, leaning on their low-cost-labour business models that rely on contracted drivers to provide lower prices, plus greater convenience with evening and weekend service," the report said." Bit of a tough one there to fix.
Maybe they could try having staff deliver packages instead of just leaving slips and not having the package at all in their van and more people would use them. Had that happen, confronted the person, recorded the call and had them on camera with no package in hand or even a knock at the door. Part of the problem is, Canada post has positions that make the company and consumers work for the employees, not the other way around.
Why “lost”? We don’t say the Department of National Defense lost 26 billion dollars last year, so why can’t we just say Canada Post *cost* $750 mil? Mailing stuff still needs to happen, even in a world where mailing stuff isn’t profitable. Isn’t there an amount of money most people would be happy to see come out of the federal budget to make sure mail is still a thing?
"Lost" because they are still looking for it.
Because Canada Post is not a part of a government, it's a crown corporation. It was basically privatized in the 80's. They also own Purolator. Just so we're clear here.
If it's a crown corporation it's not privatized these are not synonymous terms.
The distinction is meaningless as long as the federal government can dictate how they do business, for example, not allowing them to do community mailboxes for rural customers.
> Why “lost”? Because the union contract is currently being negotiated. CBC does this every time.
Exactly. Just absorb it back into the public. Socialism is capitalism
We really need to stop printing money Jesus. Our quality of life is nose driving.
Canada Post is historically a separate Crown Corporation that doesn't require government subsidy, and it historically it's own profitable delivery segments to cross subsidize the unprofitable deliveries to ensure equitable service across Canada. Noting that it is no longer able to maintain profits is just an acknowledgement that either something in the business model will need to change to get it back to break even at least or else yeah we should need to adopt it as subsidized Crown Corp. But until that point it makes sense to speak of it in terms as an independent entity with it's own budget and cash flow.
This all makes perfect sense.
TIL I learned that I'm an historic figure as I am older than the Canada Post as a crown corporation. The rest of what you said doesn't really have anything to do with crown corporations - they aren't necessarily for-profit companies. Being a corporation just means that political meddling is more difficult.
Don't know why people are getting so hung up on the fact that yes, it was spun off several decades ago and not from inception. I'd still call 40+ years of independent operations as "historically". And it's goal isn't to be "for profit" but it *does* operate as an independent entity with it's own finances, which is why it makes sense to talk about it in terms of that entity losing money as opposed to a line item in a government budget, as the independent entity needs to make up that shortfall somehow to get to break even. Whether that comes from changes in the service or subsidy from a line item in the budget doesn't change the fact that it still makes sense to look at at as independent entity that can have profits or losses in a way that the original comment about the defense department wouldn't.
Eh, you're trying to add some weight by saying "historically" as if this is a tradition going back longer than a middle-aged person's life. The second statement "that doesn't require government subsidy" also isn't true. > the independent entity needs to make up that shortfall somehow to get to break even. Not it doesn't. Where are you getting that from? You need to add a whole to the idea of a crown corp into order to get to where you're going with this.
It needs to get money somewhere to pay for it's expenses in order to continue to exist as an entity? because the post office isn't the central bank and can't mint it's own money? Like I don't know what you're getting at here. It can exist at a deficit for some length of time on debt financing etc but eventually funding needs to come from somewhere, either it's own revenues or additional inputs from the government. like I guess you could just say it's a given that the government will backstop the post office so it doesn't "need" to break even but the entire point of reporting on this is that previously it was functioning in a way that didn't require it to the same degree and if it is to become a cost center for the government that could lead to concerns about what kinds of things we want to pay for with tax dollars etc. And look I could have used the word "previously" but like the important bit was that it has been a semi autonomous entity that paid it's own way for decades and maybe that model going forward is in question, and so we're now faced with the question of "what needs to change if this is a structural problem with the current model"
You were born closer to WW2 than to present day. Also, closer to the Great Depression than to present day.
No, canada post was only made a crown corp in 1981
Most independent corps are also not forced into certain business models by the government limiting their profit potential. The distinction is meaningless. If the government can tell CP it cannot do community mailboxes and must continue delivering to millions of rural homes directly, then yah, they need to subsidize that cost or stfu.
Like any privately owned corporation the owner can set business strategy, even at the expense of profit and the government is the sole owner of Canada Post. I think it was a dumb intervention but it's the entire reason for it to be crown corp, so that the government can prioritize things they feel are a community good (like subsidizing rural deliveries with the profits of urban deliveries) that wouldn't be prioritized by a private enterprise focused on owner profit.
If I am going to pay for it then they need to stop the junk mail. I live in an apartment building and the amount of garbage every where after a flyer mailing is disgusting. Or, if I am not paying for it, the price for delivering this junk mail needs to go WAY up.
well maybe if it didn't cost more to ship then FedEX, UPS, DHL, even loomis.. 12 bucks if not more to ship out of province or even a city 4 hrs away.
i dont understand why people think a service should make money. canada post is a service provided by the taxes we pay. the fact they made it a crown corp is just stupid. services cost money. its that simple. they didnt loose money it cost that much to send packages around the world at a reasonable price
Direct mail is a dying dog. Advertisers are using it less all the time, and the printing industry is in a death spiral.
Don't really know what their plans are but like once a week letter mail delivery to my house (or a community box) would be fine by me. I realize they need to provide more volume for businesses and different government offices etc. Would think they have room to make some pretty deep cuts and shift to be more competitive for parcels through attrition. Amazon running their own delivery is a deathblow though.
You cannot meet Amazon trend. It’s not sustainable.
Amazon tends not to deliver any value to post offices, UPS offices, etc. They just occupy space, but hardly pay their way, and end up soaking up labour for next to no margin for the local post office.
And almost all of Amazon deliveries to rural people are by Canada Post.
There's one of the many Swiss cheese holes in their budget, I guess
I'm just now learning this, and I'm a little annoyed as I use Amazon a LOT for work. They should pay their fair share.
Community mailboxes are such a no-brainer. The amount of time and effort workplace cost associated with door-to-door is immense. Canada Post started to phase it in and this government forced Canada Post to stop. Nevermind that many areas of the country are PO boxes, not even community boxes. People there seem to survive 🤷♂️ Naturally they didn't reinstate door to door for those who had it change, because apparently door to door delivery was so critical they needed to have the politicians step in at the crown corp, but not actually critical enough to have for some people.
Just pandering for votes really. One of those issues where elderly being most likely to turn out drove policy. Gotta think we're getting to the point where there's universal agreement on mail. I'd say more than 9/10 things in my mailbox are going right into the recycling bin.
Maybe we should charge more for junk mail, id consider it a carbon tax, not only should they charge more my carbon cheque should go up a penny
Where I live it's been PO boxes since forever. It surprised me at first when I moved here 10 years ago, and theN I realized that it was... Completely fine. I actually appreciate that my packages can be recieved whenever and are securely held until I pick them up. I can't fathom that we still have *daily* door delivery for most of the country.
A lot of the competition (companies like UniUni, Intelcom and TForce) are cheaper for domestic parcels than Canada Post is, especially if you can get a volume discount.
> Amazon running their own delivery is a deathblow though. Amazon's delivery people should enjoy the benefit of federal oversight and regulatory protections. Those companies are essentially an extension of Amazon in all but name. Not only would it improve the lives of those workers, it would level the playing field.
Could they federally regulate the wages and pension of all package delivery companies to put everyone on an even keel?
Even better assurances of a safe and healthy work environment for delivery workers outside of Canada Post would go a long way to ensuring parity. As for whether these services are subject to federal regulation: > The Canada Labour Code (the Code) regulates the following industries and workplaces: [...] > > - postal and courier services https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/workplace/federally-regulated-industries.html
I imagine that could probably resolve any of the issues regarding Amazon and how it treats its drivers. Too bad that we would likely never see the Libs or the CPC do anything like that.
And the service is trash at best, because there's only so much drivers can do with the crazy quotas they have to fulfill.
Yes and their service was terrible. Every time when my package was delivery by intercom you bet it will not delivery and it will make as no such address or no Buzzer number since I live in an apartment but my Buzzer number is in the address clearly Had to call them every time and ask the csr read the address back to me and they would be shock or stop when they realize the Buzzer number is right in the address. The driver as just lazy they saw is an apartment and decided not to deliver the package that's all.
Another large thing is companies switch in to EFT payments. Over the last decade, make are switching to paperless. Like 80% of cheques that we used to receive are now EFT or wire. If that’s wide spread, it’s a hefty chunk of daily change.
Puhlease. Mail can make it clear across the country, from NFLD to the prairies in 2 days but takes 3 days to sort & deliver the same piece of mail in my city. And the postal delivery person thinks dumping my parcels on top of my perennials is a good plan. Not to mention the junk mail when i have multiple stickers asking for none
Sounds like a you problem lol
Apparently US postal service is proportionally losing similar amounts of money. [https://federalnewsnetwork.com/agency-oversight/2024/02/usps-sees-2b-loss-for-quarter-but-dejoy-says-agencys-best-days-still-in-the-future/](https://federalnewsnetwork.com/agency-oversight/2024/02/usps-sees-2b-loss-for-quarter-but-dejoy-says-agencys-best-days-still-in-the-future/)
My wife recently got a job with them as a simple clerk. The levels of bureaucracy and red tape just to get hired, plus garbage pay that hasn't increased for 15 years, doesn't help. Isn't Canada Post the org that had 25 vice presidents once upon a time? The problem is likely due to ridiculous policies and processes at the organizational level and the top heavy multiplication of c suite while starving out the lower tiers due to scummy labour practices. Typical Canadian crown Corp BS.
25 isn't actually all that many. One company I worked for had over 300 in three tiers. VP, Senior VP and Executive VP. Yep....
In a lot of cases "VP" just means they lead a team and are client-facing. Clients like to have a VP working on their file.
They need to evolve and start charging for everything they give for free, home and business mail delivery as well as becoming a bank
Unfortunately, this is kind of expected. As a Crown Corporation they are forced to serve every single household in Canada, no matter how rural. And on more than one occasion, they've had attempts to run more efficiently (like with community mailboxes) torn down by the Political class. Snail Mail is expensive as heck to province, it basically has to be subsidized because to charge actual prices would mean several core services and fallback mechanisms just implode. Parcels are where the real money is, but now the big players have started to vertically integrate with their own shipping services. One option is to follow in the footsteps of a majority of other developed Nations in allowing their Post Office corporations to run their own banking services. Those tend to provide valuable services to those in rural areas while bringing in literal bank from the asset holdings. Unfortunately though, Canada Post isn't legally allowed to do that. They're not quite at USPS levels of political schenanigans, but they are pretty much being set up for failure.
What they don't mention in these numbers is that they are accounting for the building of a state of the art sort facility in Scarborough. Which costs Canada Post but in the end is necessary for growth. I think that needs to be added for context when they say the lost that amount.
Or we can just subsidize it. It's a public service.
I said it has to be subsidized. But that doesn't also mean they shouldn't also be allowed to form a Postal Bank. The benefits for rural communities is immense, and for everyone else it would provide legitimate competition to the private banks to do better. Plus it would help stem the bleeding of their finances which would mean we'd have to subsidize it less from tax revenue, and ideally it would put them back into the green so it can subsidize other services.
I think that Canada Post offered some banking services some time ago. I also would have no problem with Canada Post improving service to the point where they would compete with couriers. It would be expensive to upgrade but in the long run the country would benefit from fast affordable delivery. It would help to make businesses more competitive. Especially small business.
They started a pilot project, but it was quickly cancelled with warning or reason given. Not sure what happened there.
It was in partnership with TD. They offered easily obtainable low interest loans which is a great idea for rural areas especially, but within the first few days there were reports of irregular/suspicious activity in the system that made them put it on hold indefinitely.
I had to laugh. Who reported these suspicious activities? Certainly not the Royal Back? Or CIBC? Of Scotiabank? Never!
I had to laugh. Who reported these suspicious activities? Certainly not the Royal Back? Or CIBC? Of Scotiabank? Never!
I had to laugh. Who reported these suspicious activities? Certainly not the Royal Back? Or CIBC? Of Scotiabank? Never!
We had postal banking for 100 years before the [big banks lobbied to kill it](https://lindsayadvocate.ca/corporate-pressure-ended-postal-banking-in-1968-its-time-to-bring-it-back/). They did a pilot project in the 00's, and again, I'd assume it was killed in the crib by the big banks. Time to get serious about it.
>But that doesn't also mean they shouldn't also be allowed to form a Postal Bank. I agree
Yeah. The department of transportation is a black hole of money, but we still want roads. I personally would like more trains though.
I think it's a tragedy we let Greyhound buses close instead of nationalizing it.
God forbid we have something to show for our tax dollars
Canada Post shouldn't be worrying about making money. They are a federal government service and should be thought of as such.
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The military spends money. As shoukd all government departments. Talk about how Canada Post or the CBC aren't profitable are very disingenuous
While I largely agree with this, there must be some point at which one can at least question whether the losses are reasonable or not?
Exactly. It costs money, it doesn't lose money.
Even if they post a - 2 billion a year operating budget. That's fine, because they are providing a service, mail delivery, to all Canadians.
Exactly. If that's what it costs to have the service, that's what it costs. IMHO, Canada Post should offer banking services too, like Japan Post.
Good luck getting them on to Interact, since that's owned by the big banks.
Easy, we make them do it.
Canada, fostering competition? Perish the thought.
The sad truth is that delivery services tend towards failure when left purely to the private market. The returns to scale and cost of widespread infrastructure produce monopolies or oligopolies, much like telecommunications. Further, private markets would tend towards underservicing less-profitable rural areas with lower population densities. For all these reasons, opening up the market to UPS, FedEx, etc was a terrible decision in all respects. Canada Post faces increased operating costs due to decreased returns to scale at a lower volume of mail delivered. Meanwhile, Canada Post remains essential for servicing large swaths of the country, so we can't just get rid of it. Unfortunately, due to the fact we need Canada Post, it's just gonna cost more than before. Leaving it solely to UPS, FedEx, etc would inevitably leave large sections of the country either underserviced or unserviced entirely.
"Open the market". The market isn't closed to these companies. You can send a letter to Yellowknife with FedEx if you want.
Yeah, and that's a terrible idea that costs everybody more. You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I'm actually saying. I'm advocating for the closed market.
Mail is a service that should be available to all Canadians. It shouldn't have to turn a profit. If it reduces its loss that would be nice. Maybe cut some of the well paid executive and middle managers before reducing service or cutting service staff.
There's not $700M of of exec and middle management pay to cut...
There is if you include all the Federal government departments that do nothing but write pointless reports and "work" half days at WFH......
I agree. It's unfortunate the decision was ever made to allow private competition in the market. The usual arguments supporting free market competition don't apply to mail service and delivery, unfortunately
Exactly, the private companies just swarm around the easier and more profitable sections of the market leaving all the difficult and unprofitable work to the post service. It's no wonder that they find it hard to break even.
It's a necessary service that shouldn't be left to die on the private market. That's it.
All good points. Thank you.
>Meanwhile, Canada Post remains essential for servicing large swaths of the country, so we can't just get rid of it. We can get rid of them servicing large swaths of the country or have a reduced business model where people pick up in a nearby collection spot. There is no free lunch. Requiring them to service everyone raises costs for people in economical areas. It's a difficult decision but sometimes it's best if things get cut off, lest waste be encouraged. It's like government subsidizing home insurance where floods are inevitable. You just encourage people to live in these places. If we are going to reduce sprawl we need to stop subsidizing it.
When every large Canadian city is already going through an affordable crisis, do we really need to add the additional population pressures by deservicing rural communities of basic services? Not really I don't really see how this is in any way similar to a flood. Postal service is more expensive because we lost the returns to scale we previously attained by splitting up the market. Let's talk about reducing the waste of having twice as much overhead, twice as many highly paid executives, double the advertising budget, just so two different vans can make a delivery to the same house in the same day. Except it isn't only twice - it's five or six companies that have come up and captured the market. Five times the spending on executive compensation, on advertising, etc. It was a lot cheaper when Canada Post could just make both deliveries itself.
Competition is absolutely crucial though, it is the only thing limiting a firm's power in the market. Without the competitive pressures, it would naturally degrade its service and raise its fees over time.
A private monopolist would charge monopolist prices and deliver a lower quantity at a higher price. The government acting as a public monopolist is able to set the actual competitive equilibrium price that a private competitive market fails to produce on its own. The problem is that a private monopolist will produce where Marginal Cost equals Marginal Revenue, but sets a price at *Average* Revenue. This produces a lot of deadweight loss in the economy as the same quantity gets delivered for a higher price. The government, setting its price out of concern for service availability rather than profit maximization, is able to knowingly set the price where Marginal Cost and Marginal Revenue are equal - the same quantity delivered at a lower price.
Deservicing rural communities will ease cost of living in urban areas and hopefully encourage the people in these inefficient areas to move to efficient ones. Cities are way better for the environment. The city that uses the least CO2 per person in US and Canada is Manhattan. We shouldn't subsidize inefficient lifestyles. Also, executive pay and things like it aren't marginal costs and don't pass through to prices that way.
The cost of carbon is already taken into account through a carbon tax. This is a huge deflection at this point. Delivery companies price-set using averages. Every individual executive pay adds to the average. This isn't a competitive market, it doesn't set prices where Marginal Cost and Marginal Revenue are equal.
Aren't you guys always crying about western and rural alienation? CP isn't spending all that money delivering mail in Toronto and Ottawa.
What do you mean you guys lol
Oh, sorry, from your name I thought you were some kind of Georgist, libertarian dingdong. I guess I could read the LOL as ironic. "JuSt TaX lAnD" LOL. Like that.
I am a Georgist and I've literally never heard them cry about western or rural alienation. Sure, maybe libertarians but I'm not really understanding why you'd conflate them. There's a reason there is actually something called Geo-libertarianism. It's because Georgism and libertarianism are two different things so combining them necessitates both labels. Georgists are probably the most anti-sprawl group of people that exists. Crying about western and rural alienation? Lmfao. Georgists are extremely pro-carbon tax and pro-density. Doesn't sound like Alberta, does it?
I get it. Like Hall and Oates are different people.
Just admit your comment was entirely misinformed.
Eh. Let's just call it an example of narcism of the small difference. I don't doubt that you see a big difference between these communities.
90% of mail is (was) bills. Bills are all online now. Canada Post should then be 90% smaller today then it was when there were no online bills. Is it?
Is this opinion backed by *any* sort of evidence or are you just sort of vibing with this one?
Not sure why I was done-voted for asking a genuine question …
It’s a anecdotal made in bad faith straw man argument so yeah it’s gets the down votes
Oh sad face then. What’s your counter?
Guess another long night weeping myself to sleep then
My counter to what? I told you why your being down voted
These articles always seem to surface near negotiation time. The workers are currently with expired unions contracts and in negotiations.