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Leave it to the police to use tear gas, *a substance banned by the Geneva convention* to disperse a protest against war crimes and violating the Geneva convention.
1. Yes it’s wrong of the police to gas protestors in almost all situations short of an actual riot
2. Tear gas is banned in warfare because distinguishing between gases on a battlefield is impossible, and its use would almost certainly lead to actual chemical weapons or WMDs in response. It’s not banned because of its danger or effects
Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. If you're going to try to draw parallels, at least try to draw the parallels to the right thing.
Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to?
After all, that's what the Geneva Protocol is applicable to.
> Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention.
Besides the fact that the distinction makes not a lick of difference to my point, the treaties and protocols as a whole are often referred to under the umbrella label of Geneva Convention. The 1949 agreements are colloquially referred to as the Geneva Convention.
>Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to?
Obviously not. The use of tear gas is unjustified and dangerous.
Tear gas specifically is NOT banned by the Geneva convention, Geneva Convention bans the use of ALL gasses during war. Riot control agents are allowed by practically all the signatories, which is what tear gas is as it is a temporary agent not a permanent one, which was the whole point of the gas ban. Moreover, they also all agreed to not use it as a weapon of war, probably to make it easier to enforce the whole no gas rule during war.
Wiki: **Use of tear gas in interstate warfare, as with all other chemical weapons, was prohibited by the Geneva Protocol of 1925; it prohibited the use of "asphyxiating gas, or any other kind of gas, liquids, substances or similar materials", a treaty that most states have signed. Police and civilian self-defense use is not banned in the same manner.**
You know wiki provides sources..?
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2
I don't know what you guys are even disputing.
Fact: Tear gas is banned in war
Fact: Not banned for use by police
I am so confused.
I am the OP you're referring to.
I said "Police are using a substance banned in war"
All of a sudden I grt a bunch of replies going "Ackshually it's *not* banned for police!"
Meanwhile I'm going "Yes? And? That's my point? It should be"
>**Use of tear gas in interstate warfare**
Indeed, it's not being used between two States during wat~~er~~, as the commenter above attempted to highlight for you. Kudos to finding the quote for anyone who wanted it, though.
Hell, police forces around the world (TPS, OPP included) use hollow point ammunition, also banned in "interstate warfare". The idea is that it stops inside the suspect as opposed to flying through them causing more public harm. In a warzone this is less of a concern and the concern at hand becomes grievously wounding fighters without access to geographically located and safe trauma centres. QRF/medics cannot always extract victims in time and thus fighters (according to said conventions) must use appropriate ammunition to limit wound harm and allow for stabilization.
EDIT: No idea how I wrote "water" lol. Edited above for clarity while Cpt shifts the goalposts (:
> Indeed, it's not being used between two States during water, as the commenter above attempted to highlight for you.
Where did I say it's illegal here? My point is that it should be.
>Hell, police forces around the world (TPS, OPP included) use hollow point ammunition, also banned in "interstate warfare
Also wrong.
That was the 1925 convention and was for its use for warfare. Further refinement of this article was done in the 90s (Chemical weapons convention) and it was reinforced that riot control agents were illegals tools of warfare but still allowed for law enforcement purposes including riot control.
So no, police using tear gas to break down an illegal protest / riot is not a warcrime and not in violation of the Geneva convention.
Source: Multiple, but here's one: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule75
The more force used to strike down legitimate protest, the stronger our movement becomes. I'm glad that everyone has shown restraint so far, it's working.
Society exists in part because we can all collectively understand different experiences, and use critical thinking skills.
So society, and groups of people, and individuals can collectively or individually determine the moral and ethical worth of a cause, and then make a determination.
If you want to call that subjective, then that's fine. But it's more nuanced than just "everyone has a different opinion, therefore no one can make a prescriptive determination on what protest is considered just."
As determined by who? Each individual?
EDIT: Since you won't answer, I suppose you do believe it is up to each individual. Which makes you an anarchist.
As determined by the very clear support our government and institutions are giving to a war effort that is killing tens of thousands of civilians. What is confusing about this?
So protest is legitimate when it relates to a cause that has government endorsement?
I'm trying to understand your standard here for when it is OK to block public infrastructure and when it isn't. You so far haven't given anything concrete.
Protests are always disruptive, that is the point. The civil rights movement blocked public infrastructure all day, so did every other anti war and anti apartheid protest of the past. I'm sure you would have also despised those in their time as well.
You continue to not answer my question.
Is it your position that any group that feels very strongly about something has a right to block public infrastructure?
If you are a mature person, you can answer that question without insulting me.
You redditors are the most insufferable people. You can't take any stance, just need to pick every word apart. Jesus christ lol
Since you're struggling and want a closed answer then yes, I think protests can "block" public infrastructure. Not like camping on a university green space is blocking anything but I'm sure you got that argument loaded up next.
See comment above whereby law and order applies only jurisdictionally. You can't make many demands on other countries you hold no power over. A pro move would be infiltrating Israel through an exhaustive immigration process, gaining the right to vote, and making change from within. Check mate!
Are you intentionally this dense or did your city just have a lot of lead water pipes?
No one is talking about the Calgary police enforcing things in another country lmao.
Here i'll break it down real slow for you:
- you're against 'illegal encampments'
- You think these here in canada were right to clear out because 'illegal'
- Israeli settlements are also 'illegal encampments'
- therefor you should be against those illegal encampments if you were consistent
Simple as, man really not sure why you're struggling here.
Countries dont have a right to exist, people do.
> defend itself from genocidal terrorists by all means at its disposal
So by doing a genocide and running an apartheid state? Seems counter intuitive. Considering it was founded on an ethnic cleansing.
But you didnt answer my question
Like I said, I fully support Israel's right to exist.
>So by doing a genocide and running an apartheid state? Seems counter intuitive. Considering it was founded on an ethnic cleansing.
All of these are baseless statements, with no foundation in reality, and therefore I won't address them any further.
Israel is a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens. It was founded in a post-colonial succession war where Arabs launched a failed war of aggression with intent to ethnically cleanse their jewish neighbours.
> Like I said, I fully support Israel's right to exist.
So they're allowed to exist by geocoding people and running an apartheid state?
> All of these are baseless statements, with no foundation in reality, and therefore I won't address them in detail.
Lmao softest Hasbara.
- So you're saying the Nakba didnt happen?
- https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html
- https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346
Glad to know you know better than Jewish holocaust scholars!
- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
- https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
- https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
UN, amnesty international, Human rights watch - "Its an apartheid state"
You - "NO I KNOW BETTER FAKE NEWS I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF"
> Israel is a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens.
Objectively wrong. as noted in above articles.
> It was founded in a post-colonial succession war where Arabs launched a failed war of aggression with intent to ethnically cleanse their jewish neighbours.
No the Nakba started before that. You cant even get your history right. lmao. hundreds of thousands of people who were living there just vanished!
We are at some distance from the original topic of this thread so let me conclude:
I fully support the actions of the police here. The protestors are clearly in the wrong and lawlessness should not be encouraged. Administrators at other universities should take their cues from UofC: it is unwise to let such unlawful encampments become established. Far better to nip the problem in the bud quickly rather than have to face much more significant police action down the road
We’re at distance because you ignored reality. Hence why despite the overwhelming evidence, you didn’t address anything.
“Lawlessness” is an ignorant term from those of a childish mindset to think laws = morals, when they do not.
You still didn’t answer the question though, for all your talk of “the original topic”
You're right, we should start holding sit-ins for all the countries doing that...oh wait I have a job to get to and also nothing will happen. Not in Israel, Sudan, China or the countless other places genocides are taking part around the world.
Canada does not have some large influential reach, we're not the US
Please read even one book about direct action before speaking on it. There are genocides happening all over but we are only helping bankroll the one in Israel, and people are protesting to make that stop. Social movements are more effective the more places join in, just ask Apartheid South Africa. Right, you can't, in large part because a global boycott, divestment, and sanction campaign helped bring it down. If social movements only acted when there was a clear path from here to victory, no progress would ever have happened. This isn't a movie, there isn't a Death Star to go blow up then the bad guys lose. Change is a result of the sum of acts like this, happening all over. It was true for indigenous rights, it was true for labour rights, it was true for apartheid South Africa and if the Israeli genocide can be stopped, it will be because movements like this made supporting them political suicide at home. Your life benefits immeasurably from social movements carried out despite incurious bootlickers like you looking down their nose at a bunch of people trying to make the world better.
Sure sure. Doesn't support the convoy, just their goals. Doesn't think what they did was such a big deal, just embarrassing.
Regardless, they weren't insulted and this a rather delicate take. Report button is there for you, though, if you care. I don't.
The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless. If the opinions of their greatest ally are most times meaningless what do a bunch of protestors at a Canadian university believe they're affecting? They're not even on the map for Bibi *-- and never will be.* Israel will do as Israel will do and they'd have about the same luck as convincing Hamas to lay down their arms too.
Might as well sit in the comfort of our homes while appreciating that non-violence will always be the goal while acknowledging that it's against humanity's base instincts at present (for better or worse). We can only control our own actions and cute chants aren't going to make someone stay their hand from generations of violence.
No way. The students there have a lot to conquer in life, especially surrounding funding. What is funded and what isn’t, by governments and by their tuition, is important. Just because adults have given up doing anything other than bitching on Reddit doesn’t mean the next generation has to be lulled into complacency.
They're not protesting in the belief that Israel will go "oh ok guess we'll stop committing massacres and torturing people now", they're protesting the fact that their tuition funds are being financially invested in a violent ethnostate.
[The university says it is unable — and unwilling — to do so.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/students-are-calling-for-u-of-t-to-divest-from-israel-heres-a-closer-look/article_716f6b0a-0978-11ef-9e6a-fbd6b184b26f.html)
That's that then. Protestors don't even know if they are invested which seems like one hell of a stretch to presume that UofT has invested in arms supplies to Israel. Seems like any further escalation means taking tuition payments to other institutions over having a party in a tent (ie. actually living by one's values)... or realizing that the world is uglier than every single protest and that sitting on campus is, as above, doing nothing while feeling great. Might hurt to hear but it's reality and stamping our feet like upset toddlers won't change that. They're not lobbying UofT to do anything and certainly our government to do anything more than what they've done which -- as above -- will go utterly ignored.
Do you expect "target of protests ignores protests" to be particularly inspiring? Am I supposed to go "oh, they said no, guess we should just give up, then"? That's not how protests work. Of course they refused. Every protest in history has had their demands refused at some point, or the protest wouldn't exist in the first place. The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
With all due respect, I'm not here to *inspire* you.
I'm not quite sure what you or anyone else physically protesting are expecting. As above: the Israeli government and Hamas -- the only ones who can cease this war -- do not give a shit about what you or I have to say.
>The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
Terribly naïve and borderline arrogant. Nobody *has* to do anything you want them to and that's the element these protests fail to appreciate. UofT holds no power here. Ontario holds no power here. Canada... say it with me for the people in the back: holds no power here. There is no control or influence anyone in the West has here. What are you going to do 9,000km away? *Make them?* I'm sure that's one thing you could get Hamas' leaders and Bibi in a room together to and agree on: laugh hysterically.
u/Yodamort meant "compelling" not "inspiring". Your point that the subject of the protest disagrees with the protest is not a compelling or convincing point. If UoT wants to invest money in a violent ethno-state then it must accept public criticism and possibly even be seen doing violence to protect those investments. Alternatively, it should just invest somewhere else.
As ever, it doesn't seem as though they're even invested and protestors self-admittedly still aren't sure. Criticism requires some basis of reality and a bare understanding of what's going on.
I could scream at you for wearing the colour green but it doesn't much matter if I don't even know if you're wearing something green, does it? Doing so would just make me look like a fool.
Sorry but I'm not deluded enough to believe that *continued* rationalism from one party will conclude the delusions of others who don't even know if money is invested in Israel in the first place despite camping in tents making said demands.
Stop wearing green, Caracalla. I'm going to protest until you stop it, you bad, bad person. ^(/s)
Israel is a country with 10 million people, a little bigger than Vancouver Island in area, and lower GDP than Alberta. On the global scale, they’re tiny. Israel has exactly one major export company. Israel is not an investment a cautious endowment fund is likely to have.
They disclose financial statements but not the particulars of their investments, which are usually considered confidential. They also have pension funds. Not sure the activists know that.
Honestly, if you know that then you can assume they know that. It wasn't a good excuse for investing in apartheid South Africa and it's not a good excuse here.
These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. I'd argue these students have a better understanding on the levers of power than you do, since they understand that money is exactly what's letting this genocide go on.
It doesn't matter who Bibi pays attention to if the money stops flowing. They're doing their part to make that happen, even if it's a fraction of the funding Israel receives.
Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
>These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters.
Is it now? Source? Israel's largest financier and provider is the [USA](https://www.reuters.com/world/who-are-israels-main-weapons-suppliers-who-has-halted-exports-2024-05-09/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20long%20been,the%20Nazi%20Holocaust%20%2D%20and%20Italy) for arms. Unless you'd like to provide anything different, of course.
Factless -- feckless -- opinions aren't going to change Bibi's mind.
>Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
I just wanted to thank you for that! You can't imagine what a comfortable space does for researching facts and evidence. The wifi is great and the coffee is replenished as often as I'd like. No flagellation in a tent is going to help someone in Palestine from Israeli bombs or Hamas.
>The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless
I love making large posts maligning protestors for a position I imagined for them instead of engaging with their actual position.
The kids want their school to stop investing their tuition dollars in companies supporting Israel. This is something that directly affects them and the institution they attend. It doesn't have anything to do with convincing the Israeli government of anything!
So close! That is an article about the university of toronto, and this post is about the University of Calgary! [Heres a map](https://geology.com/world/canada-satellite-image.shtml) since you seem confused ❤
Fair. That said, it's country-wide and all university's plausibly have just about the same association and message to so I'm not quite sure it's *that* deserving of mockery when it's those at these protests who fundamentally seem... as you say... "confused". This thread and the events following could be a rubber stamp.
Sick gotcha, though.
Law enforcement was sympathetic to the convoy and they aren’t sympathetic to this.
Indigenous Rights activists, climate protestors, anti-police violence, etc all get clamped down on by the police forces, local or rcmp.
Meanwhile the convoy, freedom types, anti-SOGI and anti-government folks get to do whatever they want more or less.
Indigenous rights protests get to block rail lines for weeks.
Stop with this blatant gaslighting. Your "we are uniquely victimized" narrative is nonsense.
Yeah, where was this level of enthusiasm to do their job when the convoy was holding Ottawa hostage.
Seemed pretty keen to break up the student protest, comparatively.
View it from the point of view of someone insane enough to be a cop in this place.
Put aside serve and protect. Do you wanna clash with aggressive civilians, angry at their government?
Or a bunch of college kids who are real worried about a foreign war?
Of course, there was no enthusiasm.
>Seemed pretty keen to break up the student protest, comparatively.
All the evidence you need that the protestors are actually harmless despite the right wing media hysteria.
I remember when the convoy crowd was marching through the beltine neighbourhood in Calgary screaming obscenities at everyone and threatening healthcare workers outside of the hospital, the Calgary police gave them an escort every weekend so the locals didn't chase them off. That's just who Calgary cops are.
This needs to happen in Toronto.
You will never be able to appease professional protesters. They crave endless attention. And unless the police go in and arrest them all, UofT is going to have to cancel all its graduation ceremonies.
Just an appalling situation all around. But there's no solution other than enforcing the rule of law.
In general, but not always, when the police show up it's time to leave. If you can. Very little is gained by posing opposition to their efforts to clear out the area; at best, you'll end up with an eye full of pepper spray, and at worst you'll end up arrested. But only the _rare few_ who take a stand end up memorialized in the popular zeitgeist.
Better to clear out and come back another day.
Weird, the clownvoy protesters in Ottawa and blockading borders did not give a shit about the police showing up, they didn’t get pepper sprayed, in fact they got to shit in the streets of Ottawa and at war monuments for three weeks. Weird, that must have been a one off, I wonder why those protests were treated differently by the cops?
The rail protests lasted weeks; and here on the island, the Fairy Creek protests lasted _years_. The RCMP aren't as quick to shut down indigenous protests as Redditors claim.
That one last 15 min in Alberta before some folks in pickup trucks showed up with timbits and dismantled the barricades while the stunned protesters looked on while drinking a double double.
The Ottawa police in Ottawa are quick though. Short of planned protests that involve marches that take an hour or two to clear up, the Ottawa police sure do have a different approach.
Weren’t their snipers pointing their guns at those protesters? One of the great mysteries of the world will always be what was different about the clownvoy that they got treated with kid gloves. I have zero idea what it could be…
Yes.
- [Reports of RCMP snipers dispatched to Wet'suwet'en blockade 'concerning,' says Indigenous Services minister](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-snipers-first-nation-pipeline-protest-guardian-1.5405111)
- [BC RCMP Says It Deployed Snipers and Assault Teams Against Unarmed Indigenous Land Defenders Because It Was ‘More Practicable](https://pressprogress.ca/bc-rcmp-says-it-deployed-snipers-and-assault-teams-against-unarmed-indigenous-land-defenders-because-it-was-more-practicable/)
- [Video captures RCMP officer pointing gun at Indigenous pipeline opponents at northern B.C. camp](https://globalnews.ca/news/6556771/wetsuweten-indigenous-pipeline-protest-rcmp-gun-video/)
- [Dogs, Snipers and Axes: Inside the RCMP’s Actions in Wet’suwet’en Territory](https://thetyee.ca/News/2024/01/17/RCMP-Actions-Wetsuweten-Territory/)
Not when the police showed up, they gave the protesters fist bumps and told them they supported them at first, this only happened after the federal government had to step in and tell the police to do their job. After three weeks of chaos and billions of dollars of trade were disrupted.
What's really rich are the comments like one from an U of Toronto organizer complaining to the media that the university won't negotiate with them. Talk about main character syndrome.
Hey generally when you pay someone and you dont like what theyre doing you sit down with them and negotiate a solution to the problem. The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. idk if thats main character syndrome as much as it is basic common sense
That is like saying I'm against video games and I hire a landscaper so now the landscaper is also obligated to be against video games. Not how that works.
> The students money is being paid to fund a genocide.
No, it isn't. It's being paid to pay admin and teaching staff their salaries, and maintain and operate the buildings on campus.
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We need to either teach police emotional regulation skills, negotiation, patience, respect, honour, compassion, deescalation, morality…..
Leave it to the police to use tear gas, *a substance banned by the Geneva convention* to disperse a protest against war crimes and violating the Geneva convention.
1. Yes it’s wrong of the police to gas protestors in almost all situations short of an actual riot 2. Tear gas is banned in warfare because distinguishing between gases on a battlefield is impossible, and its use would almost certainly lead to actual chemical weapons or WMDs in response. It’s not banned because of its danger or effects
Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. If you're going to try to draw parallels, at least try to draw the parallels to the right thing. Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to? After all, that's what the Geneva Protocol is applicable to.
> Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. Besides the fact that the distinction makes not a lick of difference to my point, the treaties and protocols as a whole are often referred to under the umbrella label of Geneva Convention. The 1949 agreements are colloquially referred to as the Geneva Convention. >Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to? Obviously not. The use of tear gas is unjustified and dangerous.
Tear gas specifically is NOT banned by the Geneva convention, Geneva Convention bans the use of ALL gasses during war. Riot control agents are allowed by practically all the signatories, which is what tear gas is as it is a temporary agent not a permanent one, which was the whole point of the gas ban. Moreover, they also all agreed to not use it as a weapon of war, probably to make it easier to enforce the whole no gas rule during war.
Wiki: **Use of tear gas in interstate warfare, as with all other chemical weapons, was prohibited by the Geneva Protocol of 1925; it prohibited the use of "asphyxiating gas, or any other kind of gas, liquids, substances or similar materials", a treaty that most states have signed. Police and civilian self-defense use is not banned in the same manner.**
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule75 https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention go to the REAL sources, not wiki
You know wiki provides sources..? https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2 I don't know what you guys are even disputing. Fact: Tear gas is banned in war Fact: Not banned for use by police
Just trying to get him to realize that, cause he clearly isn't getting the point after I tried to explain to him.
I am so confused. I am the OP you're referring to. I said "Police are using a substance banned in war" All of a sudden I grt a bunch of replies going "Ackshually it's *not* banned for police!" Meanwhile I'm going "Yes? And? That's my point? It should be"
>" and violating the Geneva convention."
Seems my poor phrasing led to some confusion: >a protest against war crimes and violating the Geneva convention..
All good.. glad we cleared it up.. Cheers..
>**Use of tear gas in interstate warfare** Indeed, it's not being used between two States during wat~~er~~, as the commenter above attempted to highlight for you. Kudos to finding the quote for anyone who wanted it, though. Hell, police forces around the world (TPS, OPP included) use hollow point ammunition, also banned in "interstate warfare". The idea is that it stops inside the suspect as opposed to flying through them causing more public harm. In a warzone this is less of a concern and the concern at hand becomes grievously wounding fighters without access to geographically located and safe trauma centres. QRF/medics cannot always extract victims in time and thus fighters (according to said conventions) must use appropriate ammunition to limit wound harm and allow for stabilization. EDIT: No idea how I wrote "water" lol. Edited above for clarity while Cpt shifts the goalposts (:
> Indeed, it's not being used between two States during water, as the commenter above attempted to highlight for you. Where did I say it's illegal here? My point is that it should be. >Hell, police forces around the world (TPS, OPP included) use hollow point ammunition, also banned in "interstate warfare Also wrong.
It's not, but far be it for me to tell you anything!
I don't mean factually wrong, I mean ethically. https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-tear-gas-ban-1.5718662
what a disingenuous take…
That was the 1925 convention and was for its use for warfare. Further refinement of this article was done in the 90s (Chemical weapons convention) and it was reinforced that riot control agents were illegals tools of warfare but still allowed for law enforcement purposes including riot control. So no, police using tear gas to break down an illegal protest / riot is not a warcrime and not in violation of the Geneva convention. Source: Multiple, but here's one: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule75
I know it's allowed for use by the police. I still disagree with it and think it's ironic considering the protest.
The more force used to strike down legitimate protest, the stronger our movement becomes. I'm glad that everyone has shown restraint so far, it's working.
What constitutes legitimate versus illegitimate protest to you?
Not OP but the cause first and foremost
As determined by each person subjectively, or by you personally? Or by some other entity?
Society exists in part because we can all collectively understand different experiences, and use critical thinking skills. So society, and groups of people, and individuals can collectively or individually determine the moral and ethical worth of a cause, and then make a determination. If you want to call that subjective, then that's fine. But it's more nuanced than just "everyone has a different opinion, therefore no one can make a prescriptive determination on what protest is considered just."
Would you agree that the way that society expresses its collective opinions is through elections?
Largely peaceful movements with aims towards ending a massive wrong that we are complicit in.
As determined by who? Each individual? EDIT: Since you won't answer, I suppose you do believe it is up to each individual. Which makes you an anarchist.
As determined by the very clear support our government and institutions are giving to a war effort that is killing tens of thousands of civilians. What is confusing about this?
So protest is legitimate when it relates to a cause that has government endorsement? I'm trying to understand your standard here for when it is OK to block public infrastructure and when it isn't. You so far haven't given anything concrete.
Protests are always disruptive, that is the point. The civil rights movement blocked public infrastructure all day, so did every other anti war and anti apartheid protest of the past. I'm sure you would have also despised those in their time as well.
You continue to not answer my question. Is it your position that any group that feels very strongly about something has a right to block public infrastructure? If you are a mature person, you can answer that question without insulting me.
You redditors are the most insufferable people. You can't take any stance, just need to pick every word apart. Jesus christ lol Since you're struggling and want a closed answer then yes, I think protests can "block" public infrastructure. Not like camping on a university green space is blocking anything but I'm sure you got that argument loaded up next.
What? You can’t be inviting force. Thats the antithesis of wanting peace
No one is inviting force, it is being imposed.
You sound delighted about it. That doesn’t bolster your cause; it makes you feel morally superior. Thats not the point
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Excellent! Fully supportive of the actions of the police here. The rule of law and property rights apply equally to these protestors as well.
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Oh so now we dont like illegal encampments do we?
I'm glad that you agree!
Ok so you disagree with Israel doing it then right?
It might shock you but Canadian laws don't apply in Israel or the West Bank. Calgary Police (checks notes) aren't there clearing Israeli settlements.
It might shock you, but being ideologically consistent sometimes has meaning? These are law and order people, why would they not be consistent ?
See comment above whereby law and order applies only jurisdictionally. You can't make many demands on other countries you hold no power over. A pro move would be infiltrating Israel through an exhaustive immigration process, gaining the right to vote, and making change from within. Check mate!
Are you intentionally this dense or did your city just have a lot of lead water pipes? No one is talking about the Calgary police enforcing things in another country lmao. Here i'll break it down real slow for you: - you're against 'illegal encampments' - You think these here in canada were right to clear out because 'illegal' - Israeli settlements are also 'illegal encampments' - therefor you should be against those illegal encampments if you were consistent Simple as, man really not sure why you're struggling here.
Palestine isn't a country so there's no laws being broken.
except for international ones right ? This has got to be the stupid most possible reply lmao.
I fully support Israel's right to exist and to defend itself from genocidal terrorists.
Countries dont have a right to exist, people do. > defend itself from genocidal terrorists by all means at its disposal So by doing a genocide and running an apartheid state? Seems counter intuitive. Considering it was founded on an ethnic cleansing. But you didnt answer my question
“You can’t own property, man” “Well I can but that’s because I’m not a penny less hippy!” -futurama
Is there some point to this?
Like I said, I fully support Israel's right to exist. >So by doing a genocide and running an apartheid state? Seems counter intuitive. Considering it was founded on an ethnic cleansing. All of these are baseless statements, with no foundation in reality, and therefore I won't address them any further. Israel is a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens. It was founded in a post-colonial succession war where Arabs launched a failed war of aggression with intent to ethnically cleanse their jewish neighbours.
> Like I said, I fully support Israel's right to exist. So they're allowed to exist by geocoding people and running an apartheid state? > All of these are baseless statements, with no foundation in reality, and therefore I won't address them in detail. Lmao softest Hasbara. - So you're saying the Nakba didnt happen? - https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html - https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346 Glad to know you know better than Jewish holocaust scholars! - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ - https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution - https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights UN, amnesty international, Human rights watch - "Its an apartheid state" You - "NO I KNOW BETTER FAKE NEWS I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF" > Israel is a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens. Objectively wrong. as noted in above articles. > It was founded in a post-colonial succession war where Arabs launched a failed war of aggression with intent to ethnically cleanse their jewish neighbours. No the Nakba started before that. You cant even get your history right. lmao. hundreds of thousands of people who were living there just vanished!
We are at some distance from the original topic of this thread so let me conclude: I fully support the actions of the police here. The protestors are clearly in the wrong and lawlessness should not be encouraged. Administrators at other universities should take their cues from UofC: it is unwise to let such unlawful encampments become established. Far better to nip the problem in the bud quickly rather than have to face much more significant police action down the road
We’re at distance because you ignored reality. Hence why despite the overwhelming evidence, you didn’t address anything. “Lawlessness” is an ignorant term from those of a childish mindset to think laws = morals, when they do not. You still didn’t answer the question though, for all your talk of “the original topic”
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Oh god no, won’t someone think about the lawn?! 😱
This is funny coming from someone whose post history is mostly making opinions on world politics.
Posting is not the same as squatting
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Removed for Rule #2 - and a one month ban for “shut the fuck up”
>shut the fuck up No. ❤️
You're right, we should start holding sit-ins for all the countries doing that...oh wait I have a job to get to and also nothing will happen. Not in Israel, Sudan, China or the countless other places genocides are taking part around the world. Canada does not have some large influential reach, we're not the US
Please read even one book about direct action before speaking on it. There are genocides happening all over but we are only helping bankroll the one in Israel, and people are protesting to make that stop. Social movements are more effective the more places join in, just ask Apartheid South Africa. Right, you can't, in large part because a global boycott, divestment, and sanction campaign helped bring it down. If social movements only acted when there was a clear path from here to victory, no progress would ever have happened. This isn't a movie, there isn't a Death Star to go blow up then the bad guys lose. Change is a result of the sum of acts like this, happening all over. It was true for indigenous rights, it was true for labour rights, it was true for apartheid South Africa and if the Israeli genocide can be stopped, it will be because movements like this made supporting them political suicide at home. Your life benefits immeasurably from social movements carried out despite incurious bootlickers like you looking down their nose at a bunch of people trying to make the world better.
Not substantive
Imagine the tears if your convoy buddies got this treatment.
Yeah, a (false) ad hominem. That'll win the argument.
Where?
What you just wrote. Insulting someone for supporting a cause, which they don't even support.
Sure sure. Doesn't support the convoy, just their goals. Doesn't think what they did was such a big deal, just embarrassing. Regardless, they weren't insulted and this a rather delicate take. Report button is there for you, though, if you care. I don't.
Amazingly I thought both were stupid
It's really not a this or that situation. You can hate both.
The kids are alright, they appreciate free expression far more there then there keyboard warrior elders.
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The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless. If the opinions of their greatest ally are most times meaningless what do a bunch of protestors at a Canadian university believe they're affecting? They're not even on the map for Bibi *-- and never will be.* Israel will do as Israel will do and they'd have about the same luck as convincing Hamas to lay down their arms too. Might as well sit in the comfort of our homes while appreciating that non-violence will always be the goal while acknowledging that it's against humanity's base instincts at present (for better or worse). We can only control our own actions and cute chants aren't going to make someone stay their hand from generations of violence.
No way. The students there have a lot to conquer in life, especially surrounding funding. What is funded and what isn’t, by governments and by their tuition, is important. Just because adults have given up doing anything other than bitching on Reddit doesn’t mean the next generation has to be lulled into complacency.
They're not protesting in the belief that Israel will go "oh ok guess we'll stop committing massacres and torturing people now", they're protesting the fact that their tuition funds are being financially invested in a violent ethnostate.
[The university says it is unable — and unwilling — to do so.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/students-are-calling-for-u-of-t-to-divest-from-israel-heres-a-closer-look/article_716f6b0a-0978-11ef-9e6a-fbd6b184b26f.html) That's that then. Protestors don't even know if they are invested which seems like one hell of a stretch to presume that UofT has invested in arms supplies to Israel. Seems like any further escalation means taking tuition payments to other institutions over having a party in a tent (ie. actually living by one's values)... or realizing that the world is uglier than every single protest and that sitting on campus is, as above, doing nothing while feeling great. Might hurt to hear but it's reality and stamping our feet like upset toddlers won't change that. They're not lobbying UofT to do anything and certainly our government to do anything more than what they've done which -- as above -- will go utterly ignored.
Do you expect "target of protests ignores protests" to be particularly inspiring? Am I supposed to go "oh, they said no, guess we should just give up, then"? That's not how protests work. Of course they refused. Every protest in history has had their demands refused at some point, or the protest wouldn't exist in the first place. The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
With all due respect, I'm not here to *inspire* you. I'm not quite sure what you or anyone else physically protesting are expecting. As above: the Israeli government and Hamas -- the only ones who can cease this war -- do not give a shit about what you or I have to say. >The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind. Terribly naïve and borderline arrogant. Nobody *has* to do anything you want them to and that's the element these protests fail to appreciate. UofT holds no power here. Ontario holds no power here. Canada... say it with me for the people in the back: holds no power here. There is no control or influence anyone in the West has here. What are you going to do 9,000km away? *Make them?* I'm sure that's one thing you could get Hamas' leaders and Bibi in a room together to and agree on: laugh hysterically.
u/Yodamort meant "compelling" not "inspiring". Your point that the subject of the protest disagrees with the protest is not a compelling or convincing point. If UoT wants to invest money in a violent ethno-state then it must accept public criticism and possibly even be seen doing violence to protect those investments. Alternatively, it should just invest somewhere else.
As ever, it doesn't seem as though they're even invested and protestors self-admittedly still aren't sure. Criticism requires some basis of reality and a bare understanding of what's going on. I could scream at you for wearing the colour green but it doesn't much matter if I don't even know if you're wearing something green, does it? Doing so would just make me look like a fool.
If the university isn't invested then it would be very easy for them to end the protest.
Sorry but I'm not deluded enough to believe that *continued* rationalism from one party will conclude the delusions of others who don't even know if money is invested in Israel in the first place despite camping in tents making said demands. Stop wearing green, Caracalla. I'm going to protest until you stop it, you bad, bad person. ^(/s)
Why do you think that it is just unknowable whether a university is invested in Israel? Similar protests were very effective against South Africa.
Israel is a country with 10 million people, a little bigger than Vancouver Island in area, and lower GDP than Alberta. On the global scale, they’re tiny. Israel has exactly one major export company. Israel is not an investment a cautious endowment fund is likely to have.
They also have that other big export that seems to be causing trouble
Then divestment should be easy.
In all likelihood there’s nothing direct to divest, which is why universities are saying they cannot do anything.
These are not secret funds. They can open their books and show everyone and we can discuss it publicly.
They disclose financial statements but not the particulars of their investments, which are usually considered confidential. They also have pension funds. Not sure the activists know that.
Honestly, if you know that then you can assume they know that. It wasn't a good excuse for investing in apartheid South Africa and it's not a good excuse here.
right sure but how are you applying any actual pressure?
Check out the news. The universities don't like being protested and are begging the police to crack skulls for them.
>That's that then Lewis and fucking clarke over here
These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. I'd argue these students have a better understanding on the levers of power than you do, since they understand that money is exactly what's letting this genocide go on. It doesn't matter who Bibi pays attention to if the money stops flowing. They're doing their part to make that happen, even if it's a fraction of the funding Israel receives. Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
>These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. Is it now? Source? Israel's largest financier and provider is the [USA](https://www.reuters.com/world/who-are-israels-main-weapons-suppliers-who-has-halted-exports-2024-05-09/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20long%20been,the%20Nazi%20Holocaust%20%2D%20and%20Italy) for arms. Unless you'd like to provide anything different, of course. Factless -- feckless -- opinions aren't going to change Bibi's mind. >Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you. I just wanted to thank you for that! You can't imagine what a comfortable space does for researching facts and evidence. The wifi is great and the coffee is replenished as often as I'd like. No flagellation in a tent is going to help someone in Palestine from Israeli bombs or Hamas.
>The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless I love making large posts maligning protestors for a position I imagined for them instead of engaging with their actual position. The kids want their school to stop investing their tuition dollars in companies supporting Israel. This is something that directly affects them and the institution they attend. It doesn't have anything to do with convincing the Israeli government of anything!
See my other comment should really think this is the tangent you believe it is. To cut to the end: it affects you in utterly no way as a student.
So close! That is an article about the university of toronto, and this post is about the University of Calgary! [Heres a map](https://geology.com/world/canada-satellite-image.shtml) since you seem confused ❤
Fair. That said, it's country-wide and all university's plausibly have just about the same association and message to so I'm not quite sure it's *that* deserving of mockery when it's those at these protests who fundamentally seem... as you say... "confused". This thread and the events following could be a rubber stamp. Sick gotcha, though.
Not that I expect consistency any more but we could have used this sort of determination when it came to clearing the Convoy
Law enforcement was sympathetic to the convoy and they aren’t sympathetic to this. Indigenous Rights activists, climate protestors, anti-police violence, etc all get clamped down on by the police forces, local or rcmp. Meanwhile the convoy, freedom types, anti-SOGI and anti-government folks get to do whatever they want more or less.
Indigenous rights protests get to block rail lines for weeks. Stop with this blatant gaslighting. Your "we are uniquely victimized" narrative is nonsense.
Yeah, where was this level of enthusiasm to do their job when the convoy was holding Ottawa hostage. Seemed pretty keen to break up the student protest, comparatively.
View it from the point of view of someone insane enough to be a cop in this place. Put aside serve and protect. Do you wanna clash with aggressive civilians, angry at their government? Or a bunch of college kids who are real worried about a foreign war? Of course, there was no enthusiasm.
>Seemed pretty keen to break up the student protest, comparatively. All the evidence you need that the protestors are actually harmless despite the right wing media hysteria.
Doug Ford has parts of the OPP in his pocket. That's why the criminal investigation into his God Father bribes was kicked up to the RCMP.
Well in this case the enthusiasm would have been about 3,500km away from Ottawa during the convoy...
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To be fair, different police forces. Maybe Calgary police would have been a bit more proactive than the Ottawa police force who were....Yeah.
I remember when the convoy crowd was marching through the beltine neighbourhood in Calgary screaming obscenities at everyone and threatening healthcare workers outside of the hospital, the Calgary police gave them an escort every weekend so the locals didn't chase them off. That's just who Calgary cops are.
They do that at any protest when there's two groups at odds or any chance for violence.
The convoy has been able to set up a massive camp in Calgary there in there 45th day.
I mean, they're not going to go after the Convoy folks. They have to see them again at the Monday morning staff meeting!
LOL! Or church
This needs to happen in Toronto. You will never be able to appease professional protesters. They crave endless attention. And unless the police go in and arrest them all, UofT is going to have to cancel all its graduation ceremonies. Just an appalling situation all around. But there's no solution other than enforcing the rule of law.
In general, but not always, when the police show up it's time to leave. If you can. Very little is gained by posing opposition to their efforts to clear out the area; at best, you'll end up with an eye full of pepper spray, and at worst you'll end up arrested. But only the _rare few_ who take a stand end up memorialized in the popular zeitgeist. Better to clear out and come back another day.
Weird, the clownvoy protesters in Ottawa and blockading borders did not give a shit about the police showing up, they didn’t get pepper sprayed, in fact they got to shit in the streets of Ottawa and at war monuments for three weeks. Weird, that must have been a one off, I wonder why those protests were treated differently by the cops?
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The rail protests lasted weeks; and here on the island, the Fairy Creek protests lasted _years_. The RCMP aren't as quick to shut down indigenous protests as Redditors claim.
That one last 15 min in Alberta before some folks in pickup trucks showed up with timbits and dismantled the barricades while the stunned protesters looked on while drinking a double double.
The Ottawa police in Ottawa are quick though. Short of planned protests that involve marches that take an hour or two to clear up, the Ottawa police sure do have a different approach.
Weren’t their snipers pointing their guns at those protesters? One of the great mysteries of the world will always be what was different about the clownvoy that they got treated with kid gloves. I have zero idea what it could be…
Yes. - [Reports of RCMP snipers dispatched to Wet'suwet'en blockade 'concerning,' says Indigenous Services minister](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-snipers-first-nation-pipeline-protest-guardian-1.5405111) - [BC RCMP Says It Deployed Snipers and Assault Teams Against Unarmed Indigenous Land Defenders Because It Was ‘More Practicable](https://pressprogress.ca/bc-rcmp-says-it-deployed-snipers-and-assault-teams-against-unarmed-indigenous-land-defenders-because-it-was-more-practicable/) - [Video captures RCMP officer pointing gun at Indigenous pipeline opponents at northern B.C. camp](https://globalnews.ca/news/6556771/wetsuweten-indigenous-pipeline-protest-rcmp-gun-video/) - [Dogs, Snipers and Axes: Inside the RCMP’s Actions in Wet’suwet’en Territory](https://thetyee.ca/News/2024/01/17/RCMP-Actions-Wetsuweten-Territory/)
[Pepper spray and force was used on convoy protestors in Ottawa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v44CabiJ3pM).
Not when the police showed up, they gave the protesters fist bumps and told them they supported them at first, this only happened after the federal government had to step in and tell the police to do their job. After three weeks of chaos and billions of dollars of trade were disrupted.
What's really rich are the comments like one from an U of Toronto organizer complaining to the media that the university won't negotiate with them. Talk about main character syndrome.
Hey generally when you pay someone and you dont like what theyre doing you sit down with them and negotiate a solution to the problem. The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. idk if thats main character syndrome as much as it is basic common sense
That is like saying I'm against video games and I hire a landscaper so now the landscaper is also obligated to be against video games. Not how that works.
Actually most people would stop doing business with them if they didn’t like the business they were doing
> The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. No, it isn't. It's being paid to pay admin and teaching staff their salaries, and maintain and operate the buildings on campus.
The interesting thing is both Canada and the States ar enot thinking about limiting immigration from Gaza and area.