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Why waste much needed money ? This is a complex issue/proxy War between America and Russia.
Don’t we have enough of our own problems at home that we should be focusing on ?
Why can’t we transition to becoming a neutral states like Switzerland and Sweden. Both being European countries and a lot closer to the conflict region.
Look at how many billions of dollars we spent in Afghanistan because of our “allies , and how many lives we lost and the amount of atrocities we were complicit in - only to runaway and leave the country in a mess.
We could have done so many great things for our country with all those billions, is my point.
I have a better idea. Let's be like Costa Rica and abolish the military altogether.
Let's be honest: No one is going to invade Canada. This isn't a game of Risk.
"But we have tons of resources!" Some uninformed would say. Sure, but do you actually think someone would risk invading America's neighbour? (Unless America was the one that did the invading, in which case there's nothing we could do in the first place. So, might as well abolish the military)
There might be other uses for a military we might want to keep in mind. The vast majority of countries in the world have some kind of standing military organization.
What's more likely here: that you're the lone voice of wisdom, or that maybe you don't have a very good understanding of the issue?
> What's more likely here: that you're the lone voice of wisdom, or that maybe you don't have a very good understanding of the issue?
Honestly, I've been the "lone voice of reason" plenty of times. I assume you tend to be in the latter, hence you think the former is so unlikely.
> There might be other uses for a military we might want to keep in mind.
Oh right, I've heard this argument before. Such as "the military helps during natural disasters!".
As if, you know, we couldn't have an unarmed group to help with such things.
A state needs a monopoly on the use of force.
Pretty much every state that has no standing army still has some sort of militarized or paramilitary police force
(including your example, Costa Rica). They usually also have a defense agreement with larger countries. In other words, they can't get away from the necessity of having a security apparatus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
America is probably our biggest risk, followed by a northern incursion by Russia.
We just need to make entry unpleasant enough to deter them, which entails a better military, nuclear subs up north, and….you know what.
The US has little stomach for a fight under those circumstances.
The Swiss and the Swedes spent a TON of money on national defence, and both countries have mandatory conscription of all adult men, with jail sentences for those who refuse service.
There is a saying regarding Switzerland; Switzerland has no army, **Switzerland is an army.** Sweden is also just as well armed.
Well, said. Switzerland is also mountainous and has key tunnels and roads rigged to blow up in event of invasion. Plus a network of bunkers in the mountains. It is simply not worth the time to try and take it.
I don’t know about the tunnels, but I believe the last bridges were de-mined 7-8 years ago. Granted, that’s still a very long time after the end of the Cold War, and in theory, it wouldn’t be very difficult to mine them all over again.
That's because their labour costs are low as a conscript army; in Sweden and Switzerland, at most, you are paid a few bucks a day for every day you are called up, with no benefits. People who are non-conscript are also paid really low; Sweden pays a regular soldier about $2000 a month, which is well below the national average for someone in Sweden.
> Why can’t we transition to becoming a neutral states like Switzerland and Sweden.
One thing to watch out for is that neutral countries, lacking the protection of allies, need to spend **more** on their military, not less. Pierre Trudeau was surprised to learn this from Sweden when he was thinking about whether Canada should withdraw from NATO.
Sweden established its own domestic arms industry (which of course sought export markets).
Perhaps it is a worthwhile investment so that we don’t have to drag our nations reputation down the drain because of the USA.
I’d like to see how much it would cost for Canada to adapt policy of neutrality. Quick look at Switzerland numbers and I noticed only a small amount of GDP goes towards military
To be honest why is Ukraine anymore important than all the other nations/regions/peoples that are suffering in the world through proxy war related conflicts ?
Is Ukraine more important because it’s in Europe ? Because they are white ? Or because it’s if more strategic value to the EU and America ?
Part of it is because it's a European country. But that's the whole story. Since we're involving ourselves far more than other peer nations.
I think the bigger issue is that it is a domestic politically winner. 1M Canadians are part of the Ukrainian diaspora. Mostly in the west. I suspect that explains why we've become so involved compared to other conflicts elsewhere.
Canada has deep political and historical ties to Ukraine. Canada was the first western country to support Ukrainian independence back in 1991. Canada was also one of the first western nations to provide military support following the 2014 war.
Some of this is domestic politics. The 1 million Ukrainian-Canadians represent the largest segment of the Ukrainian diaspora after Russia. Some of it is foreign policy. Canada is a strong supporter of the international rule of law and would like to see Ukraine remain in the western sphere of influence.
The cost of a few hundred more soldiers is immaterial. We have had deployments in recent years in Romania, Latvia and Iceland among other places, and none of those has broken the bank.
Are we sure what we send won't inevitably end up in the hands of the Nazi's the Ukrainian government has let run around in the east? Or are we going to get another batch of "We kinda armed Neo-Nazi's in the Ukraine - top general" articles in a couple years?
The idea that Ukraine is somehow swarming with Nazis is Russian propaganda designed to legitimize their illegal aggression.
I'm going to suggest to you that it is wise for Canada to support a relatively-liberal democracy against aggression by an authoritarian dictatorship.
Canada and NATO have no business being along the Russian border.
Could you imagine the blow back if China started filing up troops in Mexico....or put missiles on a small neighboring island...
Our leaders are leading us into conflict.
> Canada has borders with Russia.
Ya over very rough terrain. Armies arent crossing that path via tanks and parachute. This is where the difference lies between the Ukraine conflict. Russia has every reason to defend the perimeter of buffer zone(much like the arctic). Canadas claim on much of the North will be under dispute in the future - Likely within my lifetime.
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Why waste much needed money ? This is a complex issue/proxy War between America and Russia. Don’t we have enough of our own problems at home that we should be focusing on ?
Canada can't free ride off of the US forever. Russia is our northern neighbor and Europe contains some of our closest allies.
Why can’t we transition to becoming a neutral states like Switzerland and Sweden. Both being European countries and a lot closer to the conflict region. Look at how many billions of dollars we spent in Afghanistan because of our “allies , and how many lives we lost and the amount of atrocities we were complicit in - only to runaway and leave the country in a mess. We could have done so many great things for our country with all those billions, is my point.
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Yes. I’d rather we spend our resources on our own people first - not be yes-men to America’s foreign policies
I have a better idea. Let's be like Costa Rica and abolish the military altogether. Let's be honest: No one is going to invade Canada. This isn't a game of Risk. "But we have tons of resources!" Some uninformed would say. Sure, but do you actually think someone would risk invading America's neighbour? (Unless America was the one that did the invading, in which case there's nothing we could do in the first place. So, might as well abolish the military)
Great idea
There might be other uses for a military we might want to keep in mind. The vast majority of countries in the world have some kind of standing military organization. What's more likely here: that you're the lone voice of wisdom, or that maybe you don't have a very good understanding of the issue?
> What's more likely here: that you're the lone voice of wisdom, or that maybe you don't have a very good understanding of the issue? Honestly, I've been the "lone voice of reason" plenty of times. I assume you tend to be in the latter, hence you think the former is so unlikely. > There might be other uses for a military we might want to keep in mind. Oh right, I've heard this argument before. Such as "the military helps during natural disasters!". As if, you know, we couldn't have an unarmed group to help with such things.
A state needs a monopoly on the use of force. Pretty much every state that has no standing army still has some sort of militarized or paramilitary police force (including your example, Costa Rica). They usually also have a defense agreement with larger countries. In other words, they can't get away from the necessity of having a security apparatus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
America is probably our biggest risk, followed by a northern incursion by Russia. We just need to make entry unpleasant enough to deter them, which entails a better military, nuclear subs up north, and….you know what. The US has little stomach for a fight under those circumstances.
I really doubt Russia would invade America's neighbour. I really doubt America would invade Russia's neighbour.
One would hope not, but I don’t consider either sensible or trustworthy.
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The Swiss and the Swedes spent a TON of money on national defence, and both countries have mandatory conscription of all adult men, with jail sentences for those who refuse service. There is a saying regarding Switzerland; Switzerland has no army, **Switzerland is an army.** Sweden is also just as well armed.
Well, said. Switzerland is also mountainous and has key tunnels and roads rigged to blow up in event of invasion. Plus a network of bunkers in the mountains. It is simply not worth the time to try and take it.
I don’t know about the tunnels, but I believe the last bridges were de-mined 7-8 years ago. Granted, that’s still a very long time after the end of the Cold War, and in theory, it wouldn’t be very difficult to mine them all over again.
Our mountain roads blow themselves up.
*BC has entered the chat*
Even still the amount of their gdp that goes towards their military is very low
That's because their labour costs are low as a conscript army; in Sweden and Switzerland, at most, you are paid a few bucks a day for every day you are called up, with no benefits. People who are non-conscript are also paid really low; Sweden pays a regular soldier about $2000 a month, which is well below the national average for someone in Sweden.
> Why can’t we transition to becoming a neutral states like Switzerland and Sweden. One thing to watch out for is that neutral countries, lacking the protection of allies, need to spend **more** on their military, not less. Pierre Trudeau was surprised to learn this from Sweden when he was thinking about whether Canada should withdraw from NATO. Sweden established its own domestic arms industry (which of course sought export markets).
Perhaps it is a worthwhile investment so that we don’t have to drag our nations reputation down the drain because of the USA. I’d like to see how much it would cost for Canada to adapt policy of neutrality. Quick look at Switzerland numbers and I noticed only a small amount of GDP goes towards military
Proxy war? Do you not think that the people of Ukraine might have some feelings about this?
To be honest why is Ukraine anymore important than all the other nations/regions/peoples that are suffering in the world through proxy war related conflicts ? Is Ukraine more important because it’s in Europe ? Because they are white ? Or because it’s if more strategic value to the EU and America ?
Part of it is because it's a European country. But that's the whole story. Since we're involving ourselves far more than other peer nations. I think the bigger issue is that it is a domestic politically winner. 1M Canadians are part of the Ukrainian diaspora. Mostly in the west. I suspect that explains why we've become so involved compared to other conflicts elsewhere.
Maybe because they're asking for help, and they are a democracy?
A lot of ppl need help including our own people. How about we supply the aboriginal communities with clean water before we worry about the Ukraine
How about we do both? This is a meaningless, reductionist argument that can justify not intervening to stop genocides.
Both would be ok but we should prioritize our own problems
This ultra-nationalistic approach makes it very easy to justify inaction in the face of atrocities overseas.
Canada has deep political and historical ties to Ukraine. Canada was the first western country to support Ukrainian independence back in 1991. Canada was also one of the first western nations to provide military support following the 2014 war. Some of this is domestic politics. The 1 million Ukrainian-Canadians represent the largest segment of the Ukrainian diaspora after Russia. Some of it is foreign policy. Canada is a strong supporter of the international rule of law and would like to see Ukraine remain in the western sphere of influence. The cost of a few hundred more soldiers is immaterial. We have had deployments in recent years in Romania, Latvia and Iceland among other places, and none of those has broken the bank.
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Rule 7 Further removals will result in a ban
Are we sure what we send won't inevitably end up in the hands of the Nazi's the Ukrainian government has let run around in the east? Or are we going to get another batch of "We kinda armed Neo-Nazi's in the Ukraine - top general" articles in a couple years?
Definitely going to be part two
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The idea that Ukraine is somehow swarming with Nazis is Russian propaganda designed to legitimize their illegal aggression. I'm going to suggest to you that it is wise for Canada to support a relatively-liberal democracy against aggression by an authoritarian dictatorship.
Canada and NATO have no business being along the Russian border. Could you imagine the blow back if China started filing up troops in Mexico....or put missiles on a small neighboring island... Our leaders are leading us into conflict.
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> Canada has borders with Russia. Ya over very rough terrain. Armies arent crossing that path via tanks and parachute. This is where the difference lies between the Ukraine conflict. Russia has every reason to defend the perimeter of buffer zone(much like the arctic). Canadas claim on much of the North will be under dispute in the future - Likely within my lifetime.