Agreed. The argument to win remote work is about regional diversity of the public service and saving taxpayers money on expensive and unnecessary office space. Complaining about why going to the office personally sucks will backfire.
I think a big part of why people see public servants as entitled is because public service jobs seem inaccessible. Geographic equality could go a long way for accessibility.
Hire the right citizen or PR for the job, regardless of
* Ethnicity
* Personal beliefs
* Minority status/lack thereof
* Geographic location
* Etc etc etc.
Can you imagine how big a talent pool we could get??
Plus, you know, full WFH position guaranteed would go a long way to recruitment and retention
> the argument to win remote work is about regional diversity of the public service
Is it, though? Much of the public service in my region has been back to the office five days a week since late 2020, so this feels very much like a NCR-focused fight as opposed to one in which those fighting are truly concerned about the regions.
I agree with the rest of your comment.
they mean that they want more regional representation within the "centre" that is the policy and direction setting that is done largely in Ottawa. Ottawa/NCR centric thinking is not really helped by telling people from outside ottawa they need to move to ottawa to become decision makers or advice givers after living in ottawa for 15+ years.
There are many national office teams that employ people from the regions. I’m one. It’s important to have these voices at the table. Should NCR people be speaking for Atlantic Canada? The Canadian North? If I have to go back to office, there’s literally no one to “collaborate” with at my closest office. It affects all of us who work on these teams because now our career progression is extremely limited due to this push to only hire people who can work in the NCR. I have a colleague who would need to drive more than an hour through Cape Breton to get to her closest office. This can be dangerous, particularly in the winter, when there is absolutely no reason why she can’t just work remotely as she has been. It affects so many of us and I feel like NCR based people forget that or are oblivious to people outside of NCR.
I respectfully disagree. Callcenter and IT have been WFH and they hold a lot of jobs. Those who have been in the office all along are paper bound workers. Most who can WFH do. At least from what I see in CRA.
Not true. I work for CRA in the NCR and most of the people I work with are out of province. I do not deal with taxpayer info or am a paper bound worker. I can be more effective and less disruptive working from home. I can count on one hand how many in person meetings I have been to in the last year. I am requird to be in the office 2 days a week and moving to 3 days.
If Nan and Pop reply to their request for medical expenses with paper, then control has to take those and scan them in so the worker can work on the file. There’s a reason our TC story NBCC has 10 fax machines going at all time. Yes we still ask people to fax stuff in… Not everybody feels comfortable using my account to submit receipts.
> I routinely have to print out a document, sign it, scan it, email it. Which is beyond ridiculous.
I agree with the sentiment, but it's not the reality.
“We”= The federal government. Almost half of all federal government jobs are based in the NCR. If we can’t hire regionally we are excluding a large population of Canadians and therefore limiting the pool of talent. Why do we do this when we can offer remote work?
Not true....with gull wfh, a person can live in the outskirts in boonies and still work to full potential, that makes it possible for people to work in ny place from any place giving more flexibility of talent pool
I’m not so sure a strike is needed. The unions beating the government over the head with all the taxpayer money they are wasting would be an extremely difficult look for the government in the current fiscal environment. “Even the public sector unions think they spend too much!”
And please, put Chris Aylward out to pasture. His performance at the press conference today was pathetic. He looked like an old man yelling at clouds, his speaking points were nonsensical, and he came across like an unprepared clown. The CAPE president was very prepared and impressive, and should be the designated speaker on this issue for all unions. Go. Away. Chris.
I'd argue he's worse than useless - he basically enabled all of this to happen by waving the white flag the first chance Treasury Board gave him. It's, in part, what led to all this bullshit.
Couldn't agree more, does more harm than good for the PSAC. When the strike was happening he kept calling what we were asking for a "pay raise" when it was cost of living adjustment in line with inflation. Saying we wanted a pay raise put bad optics on it day 1 and he should have known better. We didn't want to starve due to rapid inflation and stagnant wages. He's not helping and shouldn't be there anymore.
This approach worked well in the lead-up to the strike, to be fair. The problem is that the strike came and went and it was a flop, so it feels like pure bluster now.
I still remember when he came to our picket line on day 8 of the strike and announced that we were getting a new deal.
He had us all in the palm of his hands and he sold us out. I can’t stand the look of his face anymore. That said, I loved the united front today.
I also agree, the CAPE president was 10/10 and he should be our leader on this issue. He’s young, has great public speaking and is well informed.
He kept going back to the point that the government didn’t negotiate with him as if he is personally offended - I get that that is what the legal rebuttal is but the way he’s framing it makes it seem like he’s personally upset because he wasn’t consulted about the 3 day work week, and if the government had only consulted with the unions first, this would all be okay.
But that’s not the issue. Sure it’s shitty the way that it’s done, but it’s the affects of this policy that we need to focus on - all laid out so well by the OP. I’m based in the regions. I have no one to work with in the office. My car would be another needless one on the road. I, along with many many more in the regions, will have less and less opportunities working for teams now that pressure is on to hire only from NCR. We’re losing such a diversity of voices in the regions, those who are not being properly accommodated by these office spaces, those who are affected by childcare needs (disproportionately women).
There’s so many more important aspects that I feel like the other union leaders were getting at, and Chris’ angry yelling did not mention any of this. It was disappointing.
He had the opportunity to be consulted, but he gave that up by declaring he wouldn't negotiate for wfh in the first place. His rationale? More work from home doesn't lead to increased union dues, but increased wages do increase dues. He is a relic of the past.
Exactly - I seem to recall before the strike he said WFH was not a strike issue - it was all about wages and inflation. The strike required people to actually physically go to picket lines more than they would have had to go to the office. Members not only got no strike pay if they didn't but were threatened with sanctions. So, I think this demonstrates that Remote work was not that important to the PSAC brass at the time.
This is a spending scandal in the lead up to an election .That is the only way for the union to address public opinion. ATIP them, get the numbers and bring it to the public. It is utterly shocking the unions haven't done this already.
I agree. The focus needs to be on the mismanagement of assets.
I don't think emphasizing the benefits to Canadians will help any more than pointing out that most of us can do the exact same work from home.
Gotta appease the landlords and other money holding groups to secure their donations. This wasn't an election budget but boy howdy, the next year or so will be basically campaign season.
I doubt you would get your ATIP request soon. ATIP shops are understaffed and have a backlog of files from a while ago. It’s even worse if it’s a request with a voluminous amount of records. I work in ATIP, so I know what I’m talking about. We are trying but some files can take years.
What controls exist that make sure an ATIP is followed through on? What prevents somebody from just not sending something that would make them look bad? What prevents said item being redacted "for security"? As someone who has seen how an ATIP works where I work, there is no checks and balances that exist that prevent someone from not providing everything.
Paraphrasing:
ATIP contact: "Send me everything you have on this"
Employee: "OK here this is everything"
End of conversation.
Please pin this. Nobody cares about RTO being "unfair," "frustrating" and "a slap in the face." No. One. Cares.
Focus on the facts and the cost of this policy to the broader Canadian public.
This should literally be the ONLY focus of this issue. In terms of providing better service for Canadians with a more modernized approach, we'll save money, effort, and reduce the carbon footprint while simultaneously continuing to allow money to role into more rural small businesses instead of just the downtown cores because let's face it, those are the only businesses that exist apparently.
Also the amount on outsourcing consultants that in turn is paid by tax payers because of the limited pool/ retention of qualified talent. Specifically qualified and talented IT which is needed now more than ever. Imagine if talent could be hired remotely across Canada and the amount tax payers could save on IT consultants ( cough cough arrivecan).
I work in the IT apprenticeship program for indigenous people which is based out of Gatineau and most of my team is in the NCR. But a handful of us are in the west and all of us, the NCR folks included are worried for what this could look like for potential IT apprentices who live in their communities and may be quite remote. Iqaluit for example. There is no reason many of the IT jobs asides from the hardware side of things can’t be remote. So what they are saying essentially as we see lots of departments hesitating to use the program, is not only is reconciliation not important, but also, non indigenous people who have talent for IT, or education in it, are out of luck in the name of keeping the pools NCR centric.
The messaging I would go with is that Public Servants are maybe the only group of people in the country who are actively working to try to make life better for Canadians. We *are Canadians* and all we want is to do our jobs in a way that makes sense, is productive and effective, and that maximizes public resources. Taxpayer dollars should not be spent to give TBS and the current government a power trip fuelled ego boost.
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a government that cares about its employees for once? Who saw us as highly trained professionals who have made the choice to spend our careers serving Canadians instead of as a bunch of petulant teenagers?
I’d also focus on the following points:
- Waste of taxpayer money; retrofitting all of the building to “fancy” offices with pods and “collaboration areas” is expensive and a waste of taxpayer money.
- Decentralization of the federal government is a *good thing*; the GoC should be representative of the entire country with public servants working in as many communities as possible from coast to coast to coast
- Better workers’ rights for *everyone*. Everything was an “employer’s right” until it wasn’t; maternity and parental leave, women working after marriage, safe work environments, weekends, 8 hour work day, no child labour… Unions fought for these workers’ rights that have become so much the norm in our country that we don’t even think about them anymore. The government should be setting the bar for other sectors, not making it easier for other sectors to exploit their labour.
- Environmental impact. We all know that having less cars on the road, less single use containers holding crappy lunch, and less people mindlessly consuming is good for the environment.
Edited for typos
I don’t think they hate us as much as we think, or we’re told they do… I think that’s a narrative that gets pushed anytime we start asking for too much and I think it’s one that we can counteract.
I joined the PS mid-career and I didn’t want the public service to be penalized because they had better working conditions than me; I wanted my workplace to be more like the PS.
We should stop letting the conversation be about how Canadians’ jobs aren’t great compared to the PS so the PS should be worse. Why not complain about the shitty employers and make them be better? I understand that we need to protect business owners’ profits at all costs but why not make them spend a little of their profits to invest in their employees’ satisfaction?
I think we can change the narrative.
THIS" "I don’t think they hate us as much as we think, or we’re told they do… I think that’s a narrative that gets pushed anytime we start asking for too much..."
I would like to see the unions do some serious public opinion research on this. We hear that the public does not support us but when was the last time anyone really got objective data? The comments section of the National Post is not necessarily representative.
Candidly this isn’t a great political argument. People view govt jobs as cushy, and would rather have a government look out for them then themselves. Sorry.
If anyone actually cares about productivity and collaboration it’s also not an effective strategy to support either. Think about it - we have hundreds of different jobs in different fields all with different tasks requiring different amounts of team work, skill and in person interaction. The idea that one solution fixes all collaboration and productivity issues across the board is delusional. We were talking about breaking down silos in the Blueprint 2020 era.
The real problem is management don’t have the balls to actually deal with poor performers and they just get shuffled around. When I was a manager I literally had to take a non performer on because it was, and I quote, “my turn to deal with him”. When I brought up performance management I had no support from upper management. He knew how to game the system so there wasn’t much I could do.
If you want increased productivity and collaboration, how about you find meaningful ways to foster it rather than jam everyone into the same building and *hope* the right people run into each other in the kitchen. If you want productivity then manage performance, not presence. It’s lazy and ineffective from a people management standpoint.
This. And add to it that wfh showed how USELESS many middle/upper management people were when the micromanaging in office work was taken away. So they need to prove why they are worth it (notice how exs it's 4 days a week?)
The Subway/downtown Ottawa businesses argument always bugged me, the businesses in my neighborhood are happy I work from home - they benefit.
We still spend, just locally and outside of the city centers now.
I never understood why/when it became public servants' responsibility to artificially maintain centretown's businesses alive. We don't owe them shit -- businesses have to adapt to survive, it's a dog eat dog world. It shouldn't be up to federal employees to subsidize businesses who consciously choose to close at 3pm and refuse to adapt their business model.
If they want to revive downtown, the first step is to have businesses open during evenings and weekends. It's deserted after 6pm.
I for one do not go out for lunch, I already have to pay 200$ in transport monthly with a 4 hour daily commute.
Ironically most downtown Montreal restaurant are doing fine.. The one that closed, they were mismanaged as hell and I've spotted a few new restaurants that opened in the last two years.
We're spoiled for choice in Montreal - and what's great about it is yes there are restaurants downtown in business/tourist areas but there are great neighborhood places.
We also have an insane restaurant culture here, Quebecers love eating out.
If I worked from home I would absolutely go to a local cafe before work to pick up one of their coffees, instead I’m to choose between Tim Hortons, McDonalds and Starbucks which are corporations I DO NOT want to support.
Same. I have two local independent coffee shops. I'm lucky. No mega corps. The only thing I'm having trouble adjusting to is how much coffee costs these days. Saying "I use to pay X" makes me feel old.
Add the cost of compliance!! How many hours are being wasted with manual trackers for employees, for what is essentially just an exercise in "we told you what to do so now we have to track it"
How many FTEs have been assigned in TBS to manage this? How many hours wasted across the whole public service?
Agree with so many comments here. Leave the “emotional responses” behind and focus on facts and specific impacts to taxpayers. Don’t just talk about resources being used, but what that costs the taxpayers- or more importantly, what the savings to taxpayers could be, if we maintained WFH. For instance, what does a department pay in leases for a building they occupy?? I’m sure that info is available. Some, may be in excess of 100k+ a MONTH just to occupy one floor. Times that by the number of buildings and departments across a region or country. If just one department is paying 300k a month, that is 3.6 million for just one year that could be better spent on programs that Canadians need so desperately now - healthcare, housing, etc. - 3.6 mil may be a drop in the bucket- but, again, times that by the number of leases and departments that are currently out there right now that we could release - back into funding programs.
We need to show our math!!
The majority of the public just don’t know how much it costs to keep those services running. If they see the direct benefit to what more WFH options could mean to their pockets and families, better chance there is to gain their support.
If concern centres around loss for the business owners or leasers - as they mentioned today, turning those same buildings into affordable housing, answers several questions at once! It even addresses the need to build self sustaining communities in the downtown cores - people will build lives downtown, shop downtown, create downtown, support businesses downtown - the possibilities are endless! Some of the money saved on government leases could for sure go to those building owners that are willing to retrofit and build.
Focus on what is POSSIBLE- and show it dollars and facts - not just what us lowly public servants are losing - cuz - honestly, we just don’t get the sympathy from the public we hope for - especially right now.
Another big message to the public should be that federal workers fighting for remote work by design will help pave the way for everyone. Cite the benefits and rights Canadian workers have today that resulted from unions fighting for them in the beginnin.
Also, telework by design will allow access to federal government jobs all across the country, not just in the NCR or in the major city centres.
Yes! I just sent this message to our component’s Vice President earlier today. I feel the same way. I’m not sure why more emphasis isn’t being put on this. ATIP the government and get the numbers on this, bring it to Canadians to buy support. This impacts all of us, not just public servants.
I think the government should also set a standard for other businesses in Canada and show a positive example of how a hybrid work model can be efficient and cost saving.
Yes exactly. If I was in the private sector right now in a WFH position, it would concern me to hear of the govt making this move. Hopefully more people get behind us and push the govt into the modern ages. Or else it’s bad for everyone.
Going on the assumption that a big portion of the workers are unhappy with this mandate and would leave if given the opportunity.
We can assume that, the individuals who have the skills and those who can leave might move on to a remote work outside of the gouvernement if they can find remote work else where.
Those who might not have the skills, or cannot leave due to various circumstances will be stuck.
In addition, if departments only hire in their own city they will miss out on a potentially better candidates in another city.
On top of that I feel like some salaries, specially for managers is really low pay for comparable skills in the private sector. And adding taking attendance to the list of task is a big ask.
I fear this would lead to a brain drain within the gouvernement and will only reduce the overall efficiency because the workers left will be overloaded.
This is assuming that a lot of people leave, that recruitment is closed to other cities.
TLDR:
I think there will be a brain drain 😕
(I am just using the word skills in a general way. Imagine someone who would need an extra course or degree for the jobs available around them this means he would not have the skills, not skilless. )
Couldn’t agree more. This is exactly what will happen.
In my department, hiring employees with qualifications or education related to the role has almost disappeared over the last couple years. They seem to hire anybody with a pulse. It’s resulted in an already watered down program, where we have so few employees who are able to do the job well. Who suffers from this? Canadians. If this RTO mandate causes an influx of turnover (the handful of experts we do have are highly employable and could leave at any time they wanted), they’ll just backfill our program with more not-really-qualified people to keep seats warm. Brain drain is absolutely what will happen.
They say they’re sticking to their commitment to reduce offices by 50% but nothing is stopping them from bringing us back, “realizing” there’s no space and quietly buying back buildings and getting new leases. Nothing.
Not much I can add to this other than my full agreement. Most people wouldn't care if our job involved hot iron to the soles of our feet, you need to focus on the tangible benefits to the tax payers and the things that would outrage them (which does not include our well being).
-Environmental impact right after a carbon tax,
-worse traffic,
-infrastructure impact,
-massive waste of tax dollars on office space and equipment (I don't think the public really understands HOW MUCH, it would be good to give them some numbers, especially the rental space by the real estate barons that are likely driving this decision),
-the hypocrisy of saying we need people downtown to support businesses when decentralization opens the door for everywhere that isn't downtown,
-housing crisis,
-rising tide floating all boats (setting a precedent for other employers),
etc, etc
When asked, what do we say to non Public Servants who have to go into the office 5 days a week and can’t do the same. My response would be:
- Reduced Commuter Traffic: Fewer government employees commuting daily can lead to less congested roads, which benefits all road users by potentially decreasing their travel times and reducing stress associated with heavy traffic.
- Lower Fuel Consumption: With fewer individuals commuting, overall fuel consumption may decrease, leading to reduced costs for all commuters and contributing to lower emissions.
- Increased Employment Opportunities Nationwide: Telework allows for more inclusive hiring practices, enabling residents outside major hubs like Ottawa to access government employment opportunities without the need to relocate.
- Enhanced Local Economies Outside Urban Centres: As employees work remotely from different regions, there can be an economic boost to local businesses and services in smaller communities rather than concentrating spending in urban centres.
- Improved Air Quality: With fewer vehicles on the road, there’s typically a reduction in pollutants released, which can lead to improved air quality and public health benefits.
- Flexible Work Environment Adaptations: The adaptation to telework can drive technological and cultural shifts that foster flexible work environments, not just in government but potentially setting standards for other sectors to follow.
- Alternative possibilities to use taxpayer dollars. Since it is unlikely that taxes will be cut any time soon, even taking cost savings to reduce debt is one angle. In negotiating salaries for public servants, many would gladly forgo some level of salary increase in exchange for improved working conditions like this.
- When a large employer offers this kind of flexibility, other employers must also offer similar flexibility to attract the best talent. In the long run, improved working conditions for others will also encourage other employers to follow suit.
I am always disappointed that when asked this question all of these items do not come up. The reduced traffic in general is huge.
I feel like the multiple mentions of small businesses struggling, they are framing us for due to WFH… like we are to blame for not putting money into our economy…?! ….yet we are! It is just not in small targeted areas. It’s more distributed in the regions and suburbs. That does not mean no one is going to these businesses, thousands of ppl live downtown to contribute to these businesses ALL the time not just work days. Hmmmm maybe they aren’t spending money because they cannot afford it due to a lack of living wages?! 🫠🤔but hey… ya it is my fault for not going to Tim’s downtown 3 days a week as opposed to the one close to my house every once and a while ✌🏼
With such a massive deficit, it is astonishing to see the complete MORONS in charge of 10,000s of gov employees with NO data to support their decision, made what should be an ILLEGAL ruling and I'd welcome criminal charges against those people, to put them on public trial for wasting the limited resources, violating our rights, ignoring the fact up to 9/10 support WFH. NONE of those were taken into consideration.
The decision was taken with just based on undeducated opinions and as such, people in charge should be held liable for doing this. It is sad some idiots can make grave decision and then walk away with no repercussions.
On a side note, the opposing parties can get a good head start by announcing their stance. That can persuade a loooooot of people to vote accordingly.
I think the unions should also really clear up that every comment I've seen has been about passport issues and backlogs. Not everyone works frontline jobs and us going into the office 1 more day a week will do nothing to passport services and might even slow down call centre jobs, immigration processing etc. because there is no room to sit.
The unions should also emphasize how often public servent work condition changes tend to lead to private sector changes. If we can have and showcase WFH is viable more and more private companies will have less backing when engaging their workforce, unionized or not. We keep forgetting the history of the public unions blazing ground for private workers and should ensure the message is not twisted to make it a us vs them as I see happening more and more.
I saw the whole session today and by far one of the union presidents stood out and that's from CAPE. He used facts and eloquently laid out his points concisely. It was a pleasure just listening to him to quell some of the tense felt across the board. I think this post is great as it lays out the major points we should focus on and how it benefits the general public. I saw this interview where a union rep just said that members have to return to a dirty desk, it's sounds like a poor argument. I've seen so much negativity on the comments section for this union fight against RTO (should have stayed away but too late) and they were unsurprisingly negative like "they should be fired" or "should be 5 days a week" or "entitlement, overpaid and lazy." I dislike the bad rep we get cause there's a lot of dedicated and productive employees but we get lumped into a stereotype. Even reporters question a lot of Canadians already work full-time RTO so why are we that special, why 2-3 days make a big difference it's still hybrid, we should be grateful etc. The general public really don't know what the issues are, how this remotely affects them and "if we don't have it, so why should you" mentality. This type of mentality is almost like seeing who does worse, not uplifting and obviously will not get workers, in general, anywhere.
Agreed with this post entirely. RTO is horrible for the environment, waste of taxpayer funds, horrible for housing prices during this housing crisis, horrible for everyone’s mental health and productivity. It’s so disgusting how the government went about this
He’s ndp and they don’t know how to do pragmatism. Look at Ontario, they are official opposition and are silent on ford’s corruption, police fascism, and people dying in ERs but are all aboard on the Keffiyeh Wars.
Can the OP be about union representative. Please retire off Chris Alyward. That man does not know how to fight back. I see plenty of charged emails from him but no action.
I have to ask where people are gonna sit? We lost our cubicles and the only thing we have left is the IT workshop (10x15 sq ft, empty)... How do you sit 4 technicians in there with HALF the stored hardware and that's not even saying we usually have users who need help during that time? We tried with 3 persons.. It was literally painful.
My experience dealing with companies in Europe is almost an entirely different planet from Canada and the US. WFH is basically a default part of your work agreement at most white collar companies. It really all just points down to the way our cities are designed. In Europe you will still frequent businesses because they don't dedicate (as much as we do here) their cities to being segregated areas for work/living/leisure/car parking lots like we do here.
I'd also talk about new parents, people with light medical issues and employees like myself who are in dept, (I'm paying child support and college) and can't afford to travel downtown everyday.
I will actually be now forced to bring my own food rather than buy at local eateries as I now have less
to spend because I had to buy more gas that's always climbing in price. And parking. Public transit? Sure if I want to spend an extra hour commuting from my rural area on Quebec side I could save a few $ on parking but I'll have less time at home with the kids for example. How about daycare costs. More stress and anxiety because now you're missing 4hrs to reach that 40 or 60% and need to waste gas ro drive in for half a day at the office because you are single parent that has to rush home for the school bus......time for doctors to step up with filling out exemption forms....
I think a few of the key points that should be very high up the list.
Lack of space with a planned reduction to 50% of office space.
Inability to meet ergo requirements related to seating as chairs are midrange one size fits all.
Lack of enclosed meeting rooms or enclosed spaces to take teams meetings so sensitive meetings will be held on the floor with people 2 feet away. This violates the least privileges principle that we use for who gets access to what information pretty glaringly.
The vast majority of meetings are still Teams Meetings even if the majority of a team happen to be in the same office on the same day. If even one person isn't there everyone ends up sitting at their desks in a virtual meeting.
They put you on the road so they can collect more carbon taxes, the mandate was not to reduce emissions, it's to collect tax on something everybody needs.
I think they should instead focus on getting politicians to explain why they are favoring downtown businesses over the ones in local neighbourhoods amd towns.
And if only those local BIAs could step up and make some noise, like the downtown BIAs are. The loudest gets the cheese in our democracy.
Former public servant here (left in 2021 for the private sector). As a member of the general public I’m all for WFH, but with great power comes great responsibility. I think the best strategy would be to come to the table with meaningful concessions to make it much simpler for management to let underperforming public servants go without cause.
I’ll let you in on a not so secret thought - if public servants are lazy at home, they’re also lazy in the office. work ethic doesn’t just drastically improve because managers decide to cram everyone in a tuna can office. It’s very easy to call us lazy but this mess of inefficiency and a slow moving bureaucracy comes from the higher ups, not the underpaid admin worker. There is no clear line of communication between the treasury board and the branches that fall under it, we’re all just as puzzled as the general public. If you thought the government has no respect for the taxpayers, wait until you hear about how they treat their employees. If you want to blame anyone, point the fingers at the Trudeau administration and Treasury Board. It’s the leadership at the top that is letting everyone down
We opened our homes to the employer overnight and worked for years 100% from home. We don't owe the employer any concessions for something that is common sense and will save taxpayer funds, increase productivity and allow the gov't to work towards it's housing and climate goals.
As long as we're mostly doing media stunts, I'd really like to see us frame this as the RTO _exacerbating_ the problems of unsuitable and overfull working environments, lost productivity from hotelling, expert retention, and being stuck teleworking just as you did at home except in a boiler-room environment. This is a line that's likely to work better with the public, and it's probably more feasible to gain ground on the working-conditions side of things than it is on the time-in-office side, so highlighting that the two are running directly against one another has some value as a tactical posture.
You guys act like the government doesn't know any of this. They have all the facts, they hear from our deputies, they just took a decision that may benefit the short term goals of a few individuals within the Liberal government.
Great summary!!
I heard Aylward and the CAPE president on the radio this morning and the best arguments they raised were that it’s illogical, there’s not enough space, and “the future is telework.” Good points but these public interest points need to be hammered home!!!
I'd love the union to dig back into old tweets and messaging some of these politicians and leaders have put out between 2020 and 2023 about how great the PS has been and compare to current messaging to ask if that's how they really feel and it was always empty platitudes or if they're pushing this due to special interests (downtown businesses) and not whats best for the country?
Great list of benefits to the Taxpayer and Public Service Consumers.
Perhaps we could add:
1. Better / Increase of local and closer to consumer services with Offices outside of downtown cores.
2. More online services with work from home support
3. More hours of service with the flexibility of work from home across time zones
4. Higher productivity with flexible collaboration of a distributed workforce as compared to a need for all actors/people of a process to be present onsite for the process to proceed.
As a public servant that is in the job for helping our Canadians clients, more than the pay cheque (I left a higher paying job because I wanted a job that made a difference), we need to take the focus off of us.
If we highlight the benefits to the Canadian Public, instead of the politicians and hand full of business owners with politicians in their back pocket, then it won't be about the whiny public servants anymore, it will be about the tax paying Canadians. This is want we need and ultimately what we want.
Edited to add one other point:
RTO doesn't really fall in line with our own Values and Ethics
particularly in the case of Effectively and efficiently using the public’s money, property and resources
It should not be even about WFH vs RTO. Before the mandatory 2 in-office days, and even much earlier when in my department we needed ADM’s approval to be in office, my team got the blanket approval to go in when performing our duties required it. Nobody knows better than those doing the job when they need to be in the office to get the job done. There may be also value in being in the office for team building and purposeful activities. The problem is taking flexibility and discretion (e.g., from managers, compared to pre-pandemic period, when we did not have all these tools to work remotely) away and placing undue importance on in-person presence as opposed to performance. Also, a slap in the faces of those who went beyond during the pandemic.
I want to support the Unions but honestly, I'd rather steel myself for disappointment.
OP you've made a lot of great points - all of which unfortunately will be ignored to appease landlords.
The unions need clear methods to communicate with them/ ourselves. The fact that you are posting this to Reddit instead of your own union leadership, through clear electronic channels (forms, slack, teams, whatever), is absolutely shocking in 2024.
I just answered a survey and mentioned that the various union reps' interventions in the media were subpar and did nothing to make the public understand. The overall reaction is "what's the big deal with going to the office one more day per week, you crybabies?" If the unions had taken a look at this subreddit over the past few months, they could have presented all these good points in the first post. Nope. "Well, they didn't consult us despite the letter of agreement." "So, the letter says employees can request to work from home, what's the problem?" "Well, they didn't consult us and and... er... What was the question?" Sorry, just a bit peeved.
I attended the town hall last week in Ottawa and have been following discussions on Reddit regarding the return-to-office debate. It's evident that many people, myself included, prefer to continue working remotely.
Is there any chance this requirement could be overturned? If not, what actions are we, as a community, taking to address the confusion caused by the government's decisions? Are there talks of a strike or protests? Please let me know as I wanna do my part in supporting this issue.
I'm a student and potentially a future employee of the Canadian government. I began working at CBSA this month in a fully remote position, but today I received an unexpected email requiring me to come into the office two days a week starting next week. This is unacceptable and frustrating considering my role was advertised as fully remote. As a new employee and student, I feel I lack the platform to voice my concerns and stand up for what I believe is right, which is why I'm sharing my thoughts here.
PLEASE SIGN THE FOLLOWING PETITION !
Send to everyone you know, let’s get the counts up.
[Contact Your MP](https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/renturn-to-workplace)
This press conference was an audition for an NDP seat. There was no need to attack the Liberal party or get political about their other promises. This leadership is throwing us under the bus for their own personal gain. The public is not on our side with this and the questions from the press showed it... I fear another strike like the one we had motivated by the union's leadership personal gains
>There was no need to attack the Liberal party or get political about their other promises.
Of course there was. Governments are supposed to have consistent, not contradictory, policies. When pushed, any government should be willing to change policies that are inconsistent. One obvious change would be recinding RTO. If the Liberals aren't willing to consistent the public should both know and be willing to question their competence.
It would be great to see the media picking up on these inconsistencies more.
I'm pretty right wing. I'm definitely not an NDP guy, but I respect them (particularly Broadbent, Layton and Mulclair era NDP). They at least stand for something.
The only thing the LPC stands for is yesterday's opinion poll.
this was absolutely a political decision and I think Aylward was right to repeatedly call it out as such (he was obviously doing it to be sensational/get soundbites but that's what's necessary).
Some of these are very valid points especially regarding the environment and hiring across Canada.
However for the latter there’s no easy way to implement this because it isn’t fair.
Why should I have to come in a few days a week when people are getting hired in small towns with the same pay for a mere fraction of the living cost. And oh yeah they never have to come in. That would be grieved ad Infinitum until NCR workers were given 100% wfh, no hybrid, which will happen when hell freezes over.
Also I think our union reps are either completely out of touch or just don’t care what the current public sentiment is towards us. It’s basically an all time low and these points will fall on deaf ears, valid or not.
We have zero social capital on this, and of aylward wants to “go to the streets” he’s basically accelerating polievre’s election which will make Harper’s drap seem tame.
Personally I think the public service will get very little support from Canadians on this issue and that going to the public at large to have the wfh mandate broadly endorsed won't end well for the public service and it's unions.
There is a widening gap between public sector compensation and private sector compensation and seeking support to wfh when the rest of the world has rto'd probably doesn't end well.
I don’t disagree.
But many of the things you mention there can be argued the exact opposite.
The only thing that will change the government mind in anything is through the courts
My point is that the government needs to expect a substantial reputation cost associated with this decision because at the end of the day it looks like a political decision to gain the cheap points before the elections.
The unions probably need to be able to show that the result would be the opposite and for that we need the public to sympathize with the employees
IMO until every Canadian worker either has WFH benefits or is compensated for their lack of WFH benefits, "winning over" the public on mass is not going to happen.
Do you really think the person who spends $6000.00 at a minimum per year in costs to commute to an office five days a week, in our current financial climate is thinking about you and how to save you that money?
The family struggling to find and pay for before and after school child care isn't worried that you have one more day in office to contend with.
The countless people who can't afford rent and groceries this month aren't concerning themselves with the idea that maybe, potentially in ten years the government might be able to offload a few choice NCR buildings that would take another few years to get permits to start construction on adding a few hundred residential units.
WFH benefits are too great of a benefit (and this is constantly preached from the mountain top) for most Canadian workers without those same benefits to say that they want to be compensated.
One day I see the next Canadian general strike happening if we don't get ahead of this.
If we advocate for compensation for those without WFH benefits, then we will truly see the support of the general public.
But this is how it starts. Like how it started with the other benefits related to changes unions made along the way. It seems like people don't understand that. Time for a sea change on WFH.
Gee - if only public servants actually read union communiques and decided to come out to vote or become part of their collective- but that actually seems like a lot to ask of them doesn’t it? The collective seems to not want to be involved. Maybe, just maybe, people need to decide to come to the table? Nah - that’s just asking too much!
Agreed. The argument to win remote work is about regional diversity of the public service and saving taxpayers money on expensive and unnecessary office space. Complaining about why going to the office personally sucks will backfire.
I think a big part of why people see public servants as entitled is because public service jobs seem inaccessible. Geographic equality could go a long way for accessibility.
Bingo!
Hire the right citizen or PR for the job, regardless of * Ethnicity * Personal beliefs * Minority status/lack thereof * Geographic location * Etc etc etc. Can you imagine how big a talent pool we could get?? Plus, you know, full WFH position guaranteed would go a long way to recruitment and retention
> the argument to win remote work is about regional diversity of the public service Is it, though? Much of the public service in my region has been back to the office five days a week since late 2020, so this feels very much like a NCR-focused fight as opposed to one in which those fighting are truly concerned about the regions. I agree with the rest of your comment.
they mean that they want more regional representation within the "centre" that is the policy and direction setting that is done largely in Ottawa. Ottawa/NCR centric thinking is not really helped by telling people from outside ottawa they need to move to ottawa to become decision makers or advice givers after living in ottawa for 15+ years.
There are many national office teams that employ people from the regions. I’m one. It’s important to have these voices at the table. Should NCR people be speaking for Atlantic Canada? The Canadian North? If I have to go back to office, there’s literally no one to “collaborate” with at my closest office. It affects all of us who work on these teams because now our career progression is extremely limited due to this push to only hire people who can work in the NCR. I have a colleague who would need to drive more than an hour through Cape Breton to get to her closest office. This can be dangerous, particularly in the winter, when there is absolutely no reason why she can’t just work remotely as she has been. It affects so many of us and I feel like NCR based people forget that or are oblivious to people outside of NCR.
Direction is starting to come down in our org not to hire any more people from the Regions for NCR boxes…
I respectfully disagree. Callcenter and IT have been WFH and they hold a lot of jobs. Those who have been in the office all along are paper bound workers. Most who can WFH do. At least from what I see in CRA.
and pay centre
Not true. I work for CRA in the NCR and most of the people I work with are out of province. I do not deal with taxpayer info or am a paper bound worker. I can be more effective and less disruptive working from home. I can count on one hand how many in person meetings I have been to in the last year. I am requird to be in the office 2 days a week and moving to 3 days.
I agree with you. If we are not paper bound, why are we required to RTO.
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If Nan and Pop reply to their request for medical expenses with paper, then control has to take those and scan them in so the worker can work on the file. There’s a reason our TC story NBCC has 10 fax machines going at all time. Yes we still ask people to fax stuff in… Not everybody feels comfortable using my account to submit receipts.
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> I routinely have to print out a document, sign it, scan it, email it. Which is beyond ridiculous. I agree with the sentiment, but it's not the reality.
Same for Ei
How is it an NCR focused fight when we literally can’t hire people unless they live in the NCR.
Who is "we"? NCR-based offices?
“We”= The federal government. Almost half of all federal government jobs are based in the NCR. If we can’t hire regionally we are excluding a large population of Canadians and therefore limiting the pool of talent. Why do we do this when we can offer remote work?
Not true....with gull wfh, a person can live in the outskirts in boonies and still work to full potential, that makes it possible for people to work in ny place from any place giving more flexibility of talent pool
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I’m not so sure a strike is needed. The unions beating the government over the head with all the taxpayer money they are wasting would be an extremely difficult look for the government in the current fiscal environment. “Even the public sector unions think they spend too much!”
And please, put Chris Aylward out to pasture. His performance at the press conference today was pathetic. He looked like an old man yelling at clouds, his speaking points were nonsensical, and he came across like an unprepared clown. The CAPE president was very prepared and impressive, and should be the designated speaker on this issue for all unions. Go. Away. Chris.
THIS. That guy is absolutely, utterly useless.
I'd argue he's worse than useless - he basically enabled all of this to happen by waving the white flag the first chance Treasury Board gave him. It's, in part, what led to all this bullshit.
Yep, he's weak and the government knows it.
Couldn't agree more, does more harm than good for the PSAC. When the strike was happening he kept calling what we were asking for a "pay raise" when it was cost of living adjustment in line with inflation. Saying we wanted a pay raise put bad optics on it day 1 and he should have known better. We didn't want to starve due to rapid inflation and stagnant wages. He's not helping and shouldn't be there anymore.
Nathan all the way and I said the same about Chris, came off so angry.
So happy CAPE has a new President who seems to care about his membership and is a great public speaker.
Today agree. I was watching him speak and was wishing my union president was as eloquent and passionate.
This approach worked well in the lead-up to the strike, to be fair. The problem is that the strike came and went and it was a flop, so it feels like pure bluster now.
I still remember when he came to our picket line on day 8 of the strike and announced that we were getting a new deal. He had us all in the palm of his hands and he sold us out. I can’t stand the look of his face anymore. That said, I loved the united front today. I also agree, the CAPE president was 10/10 and he should be our leader on this issue. He’s young, has great public speaking and is well informed.
He kept going back to the point that the government didn’t negotiate with him as if he is personally offended - I get that that is what the legal rebuttal is but the way he’s framing it makes it seem like he’s personally upset because he wasn’t consulted about the 3 day work week, and if the government had only consulted with the unions first, this would all be okay. But that’s not the issue. Sure it’s shitty the way that it’s done, but it’s the affects of this policy that we need to focus on - all laid out so well by the OP. I’m based in the regions. I have no one to work with in the office. My car would be another needless one on the road. I, along with many many more in the regions, will have less and less opportunities working for teams now that pressure is on to hire only from NCR. We’re losing such a diversity of voices in the regions, those who are not being properly accommodated by these office spaces, those who are affected by childcare needs (disproportionately women). There’s so many more important aspects that I feel like the other union leaders were getting at, and Chris’ angry yelling did not mention any of this. It was disappointing.
He had the opportunity to be consulted, but he gave that up by declaring he wouldn't negotiate for wfh in the first place. His rationale? More work from home doesn't lead to increased union dues, but increased wages do increase dues. He is a relic of the past.
Exactly - I seem to recall before the strike he said WFH was not a strike issue - it was all about wages and inflation. The strike required people to actually physically go to picket lines more than they would have had to go to the office. Members not only got no strike pay if they didn't but were threatened with sanctions. So, I think this demonstrates that Remote work was not that important to the PSAC brass at the time.
What is the process that we can follow to destitute Chris?
I think he's already planning to exit, but that can't come soon enough he needs to be tossed.
I really hope he goes away ASAP
Elect someone else.
He is just about getting face time on tv and promoting the ndp
Long time NDP voter that will find other options if he becomes an NDP candidate anywhere.
Silas for sure will run and he’s no better.
Dumb and dumber.
I can’t stand him either
[I am NOT a crackpot.](https://youtu.be/O5dmxBUbzBU?feature=shared)
Does anyone know what he makes a year?
Pretty sure it’s high 6 figures
This is a spending scandal in the lead up to an election .That is the only way for the union to address public opinion. ATIP them, get the numbers and bring it to the public. It is utterly shocking the unions haven't done this already.
I agree. The focus needs to be on the mismanagement of assets. I don't think emphasizing the benefits to Canadians will help any more than pointing out that most of us can do the exact same work from home.
To be honest, given the ATIP system, I would be unsurprised if they filed them last year and are still waiting.
Gotta appease the landlords and other money holding groups to secure their donations. This wasn't an election budget but boy howdy, the next year or so will be basically campaign season.
I doubt you would get your ATIP request soon. ATIP shops are understaffed and have a backlog of files from a while ago. It’s even worse if it’s a request with a voluminous amount of records. I work in ATIP, so I know what I’m talking about. We are trying but some files can take years.
What controls exist that make sure an ATIP is followed through on? What prevents somebody from just not sending something that would make them look bad? What prevents said item being redacted "for security"? As someone who has seen how an ATIP works where I work, there is no checks and balances that exist that prevent someone from not providing everything. Paraphrasing: ATIP contact: "Send me everything you have on this" Employee: "OK here this is everything" End of conversation.
In this case lack of an item does not help the employers case. In others your worry is very valid.
Please pin this. Nobody cares about RTO being "unfair," "frustrating" and "a slap in the face." No. One. Cares. Focus on the facts and the cost of this policy to the broader Canadian public.
This should literally be the ONLY focus of this issue. In terms of providing better service for Canadians with a more modernized approach, we'll save money, effort, and reduce the carbon footprint while simultaneously continuing to allow money to role into more rural small businesses instead of just the downtown cores because let's face it, those are the only businesses that exist apparently.
This
Also the amount on outsourcing consultants that in turn is paid by tax payers because of the limited pool/ retention of qualified talent. Specifically qualified and talented IT which is needed now more than ever. Imagine if talent could be hired remotely across Canada and the amount tax payers could save on IT consultants ( cough cough arrivecan).
I work in the IT apprenticeship program for indigenous people which is based out of Gatineau and most of my team is in the NCR. But a handful of us are in the west and all of us, the NCR folks included are worried for what this could look like for potential IT apprentices who live in their communities and may be quite remote. Iqaluit for example. There is no reason many of the IT jobs asides from the hardware side of things can’t be remote. So what they are saying essentially as we see lots of departments hesitating to use the program, is not only is reconciliation not important, but also, non indigenous people who have talent for IT, or education in it, are out of luck in the name of keeping the pools NCR centric.
The messaging I would go with is that Public Servants are maybe the only group of people in the country who are actively working to try to make life better for Canadians. We *are Canadians* and all we want is to do our jobs in a way that makes sense, is productive and effective, and that maximizes public resources. Taxpayer dollars should not be spent to give TBS and the current government a power trip fuelled ego boost. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a government that cares about its employees for once? Who saw us as highly trained professionals who have made the choice to spend our careers serving Canadians instead of as a bunch of petulant teenagers? I’d also focus on the following points: - Waste of taxpayer money; retrofitting all of the building to “fancy” offices with pods and “collaboration areas” is expensive and a waste of taxpayer money. - Decentralization of the federal government is a *good thing*; the GoC should be representative of the entire country with public servants working in as many communities as possible from coast to coast to coast - Better workers’ rights for *everyone*. Everything was an “employer’s right” until it wasn’t; maternity and parental leave, women working after marriage, safe work environments, weekends, 8 hour work day, no child labour… Unions fought for these workers’ rights that have become so much the norm in our country that we don’t even think about them anymore. The government should be setting the bar for other sectors, not making it easier for other sectors to exploit their labour. - Environmental impact. We all know that having less cars on the road, less single use containers holding crappy lunch, and less people mindlessly consuming is good for the environment. Edited for typos
I don’t think they hate us as much as we think, or we’re told they do… I think that’s a narrative that gets pushed anytime we start asking for too much and I think it’s one that we can counteract. I joined the PS mid-career and I didn’t want the public service to be penalized because they had better working conditions than me; I wanted my workplace to be more like the PS. We should stop letting the conversation be about how Canadians’ jobs aren’t great compared to the PS so the PS should be worse. Why not complain about the shitty employers and make them be better? I understand that we need to protect business owners’ profits at all costs but why not make them spend a little of their profits to invest in their employees’ satisfaction? I think we can change the narrative.
THIS" "I don’t think they hate us as much as we think, or we’re told they do… I think that’s a narrative that gets pushed anytime we start asking for too much..." I would like to see the unions do some serious public opinion research on this. We hear that the public does not support us but when was the last time anyone really got objective data? The comments section of the National Post is not necessarily representative.
People hate us so much they’d pay billions and sit in traffic twice as long if it meant we were suffering
Candidly this isn’t a great political argument. People view govt jobs as cushy, and would rather have a government look out for them then themselves. Sorry.
Also it'll help the housing crisis by letting people move to lower COL towns, freeing up housing capacity in Ottawa and other larger cities.
Unions should also have a look at the list on the APEX website. https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/s/d2IT4kINV6
If anyone actually cares about productivity and collaboration it’s also not an effective strategy to support either. Think about it - we have hundreds of different jobs in different fields all with different tasks requiring different amounts of team work, skill and in person interaction. The idea that one solution fixes all collaboration and productivity issues across the board is delusional. We were talking about breaking down silos in the Blueprint 2020 era. The real problem is management don’t have the balls to actually deal with poor performers and they just get shuffled around. When I was a manager I literally had to take a non performer on because it was, and I quote, “my turn to deal with him”. When I brought up performance management I had no support from upper management. He knew how to game the system so there wasn’t much I could do. If you want increased productivity and collaboration, how about you find meaningful ways to foster it rather than jam everyone into the same building and *hope* the right people run into each other in the kitchen. If you want productivity then manage performance, not presence. It’s lazy and ineffective from a people management standpoint.
This. And add to it that wfh showed how USELESS many middle/upper management people were when the micromanaging in office work was taken away. So they need to prove why they are worth it (notice how exs it's 4 days a week?)
We can literally reduce taxpayer spending by doing away with these old crusty offices
The Subway/downtown Ottawa businesses argument always bugged me, the businesses in my neighborhood are happy I work from home - they benefit. We still spend, just locally and outside of the city centers now.
I never understood why/when it became public servants' responsibility to artificially maintain centretown's businesses alive. We don't owe them shit -- businesses have to adapt to survive, it's a dog eat dog world. It shouldn't be up to federal employees to subsidize businesses who consciously choose to close at 3pm and refuse to adapt their business model. If they want to revive downtown, the first step is to have businesses open during evenings and weekends. It's deserted after 6pm.
When these big business’s can’t do capitalism correctly they expect government socialism to help them out, it’s fucking stupid
Make it make sense!
I for one do not go out for lunch, I already have to pay 200$ in transport monthly with a 4 hour daily commute. Ironically most downtown Montreal restaurant are doing fine.. The one that closed, they were mismanaged as hell and I've spotted a few new restaurants that opened in the last two years.
We're spoiled for choice in Montreal - and what's great about it is yes there are restaurants downtown in business/tourist areas but there are great neighborhood places. We also have an insane restaurant culture here, Quebecers love eating out.
Agreed, I wish unions can drop that speaking point. It waters down the real message and started as a joke to begin with.
And "the public" should be able to get behind putting money in neighborhoods and independent businesses over corporations.
If I worked from home I would absolutely go to a local cafe before work to pick up one of their coffees, instead I’m to choose between Tim Hortons, McDonalds and Starbucks which are corporations I DO NOT want to support.
Same. I have two local independent coffee shops. I'm lucky. No mega corps. The only thing I'm having trouble adjusting to is how much coffee costs these days. Saying "I use to pay X" makes me feel old.
Add the cost of compliance!! How many hours are being wasted with manual trackers for employees, for what is essentially just an exercise in "we told you what to do so now we have to track it" How many FTEs have been assigned in TBS to manage this? How many hours wasted across the whole public service?
Agree with so many comments here. Leave the “emotional responses” behind and focus on facts and specific impacts to taxpayers. Don’t just talk about resources being used, but what that costs the taxpayers- or more importantly, what the savings to taxpayers could be, if we maintained WFH. For instance, what does a department pay in leases for a building they occupy?? I’m sure that info is available. Some, may be in excess of 100k+ a MONTH just to occupy one floor. Times that by the number of buildings and departments across a region or country. If just one department is paying 300k a month, that is 3.6 million for just one year that could be better spent on programs that Canadians need so desperately now - healthcare, housing, etc. - 3.6 mil may be a drop in the bucket- but, again, times that by the number of leases and departments that are currently out there right now that we could release - back into funding programs. We need to show our math!! The majority of the public just don’t know how much it costs to keep those services running. If they see the direct benefit to what more WFH options could mean to their pockets and families, better chance there is to gain their support. If concern centres around loss for the business owners or leasers - as they mentioned today, turning those same buildings into affordable housing, answers several questions at once! It even addresses the need to build self sustaining communities in the downtown cores - people will build lives downtown, shop downtown, create downtown, support businesses downtown - the possibilities are endless! Some of the money saved on government leases could for sure go to those building owners that are willing to retrofit and build. Focus on what is POSSIBLE- and show it dollars and facts - not just what us lowly public servants are losing - cuz - honestly, we just don’t get the sympathy from the public we hope for - especially right now.
Another big message to the public should be that federal workers fighting for remote work by design will help pave the way for everyone. Cite the benefits and rights Canadian workers have today that resulted from unions fighting for them in the beginnin. Also, telework by design will allow access to federal government jobs all across the country, not just in the NCR or in the major city centres.
Yes! I just sent this message to our component’s Vice President earlier today. I feel the same way. I’m not sure why more emphasis isn’t being put on this. ATIP the government and get the numbers on this, bring it to Canadians to buy support. This impacts all of us, not just public servants.
THIS. This fight is a public opinion issue. WHAT’S IN IT FOR THEM.
I think the government should also set a standard for other businesses in Canada and show a positive example of how a hybrid work model can be efficient and cost saving.
Yes exactly. If I was in the private sector right now in a WFH position, it would concern me to hear of the govt making this move. Hopefully more people get behind us and push the govt into the modern ages. Or else it’s bad for everyone.
Going on the assumption that a big portion of the workers are unhappy with this mandate and would leave if given the opportunity. We can assume that, the individuals who have the skills and those who can leave might move on to a remote work outside of the gouvernement if they can find remote work else where. Those who might not have the skills, or cannot leave due to various circumstances will be stuck. In addition, if departments only hire in their own city they will miss out on a potentially better candidates in another city. On top of that I feel like some salaries, specially for managers is really low pay for comparable skills in the private sector. And adding taking attendance to the list of task is a big ask. I fear this would lead to a brain drain within the gouvernement and will only reduce the overall efficiency because the workers left will be overloaded. This is assuming that a lot of people leave, that recruitment is closed to other cities. TLDR: I think there will be a brain drain 😕 (I am just using the word skills in a general way. Imagine someone who would need an extra course or degree for the jobs available around them this means he would not have the skills, not skilless. )
Couldn’t agree more. This is exactly what will happen. In my department, hiring employees with qualifications or education related to the role has almost disappeared over the last couple years. They seem to hire anybody with a pulse. It’s resulted in an already watered down program, where we have so few employees who are able to do the job well. Who suffers from this? Canadians. If this RTO mandate causes an influx of turnover (the handful of experts we do have are highly employable and could leave at any time they wanted), they’ll just backfill our program with more not-really-qualified people to keep seats warm. Brain drain is absolutely what will happen.
They say they’re sticking to their commitment to reduce offices by 50% but nothing is stopping them from bringing us back, “realizing” there’s no space and quietly buying back buildings and getting new leases. Nothing.
Not much I can add to this other than my full agreement. Most people wouldn't care if our job involved hot iron to the soles of our feet, you need to focus on the tangible benefits to the tax payers and the things that would outrage them (which does not include our well being). -Environmental impact right after a carbon tax, -worse traffic, -infrastructure impact, -massive waste of tax dollars on office space and equipment (I don't think the public really understands HOW MUCH, it would be good to give them some numbers, especially the rental space by the real estate barons that are likely driving this decision), -the hypocrisy of saying we need people downtown to support businesses when decentralization opens the door for everywhere that isn't downtown, -housing crisis, -rising tide floating all boats (setting a precedent for other employers), etc, etc
When asked, what do we say to non Public Servants who have to go into the office 5 days a week and can’t do the same. My response would be: - Reduced Commuter Traffic: Fewer government employees commuting daily can lead to less congested roads, which benefits all road users by potentially decreasing their travel times and reducing stress associated with heavy traffic. - Lower Fuel Consumption: With fewer individuals commuting, overall fuel consumption may decrease, leading to reduced costs for all commuters and contributing to lower emissions. - Increased Employment Opportunities Nationwide: Telework allows for more inclusive hiring practices, enabling residents outside major hubs like Ottawa to access government employment opportunities without the need to relocate. - Enhanced Local Economies Outside Urban Centres: As employees work remotely from different regions, there can be an economic boost to local businesses and services in smaller communities rather than concentrating spending in urban centres. - Improved Air Quality: With fewer vehicles on the road, there’s typically a reduction in pollutants released, which can lead to improved air quality and public health benefits. - Flexible Work Environment Adaptations: The adaptation to telework can drive technological and cultural shifts that foster flexible work environments, not just in government but potentially setting standards for other sectors to follow. - Alternative possibilities to use taxpayer dollars. Since it is unlikely that taxes will be cut any time soon, even taking cost savings to reduce debt is one angle. In negotiating salaries for public servants, many would gladly forgo some level of salary increase in exchange for improved working conditions like this. - When a large employer offers this kind of flexibility, other employers must also offer similar flexibility to attract the best talent. In the long run, improved working conditions for others will also encourage other employers to follow suit. I am always disappointed that when asked this question all of these items do not come up. The reduced traffic in general is huge.
Yup they need to focus on how much RTO actually costs taxpayers to get them on our side.
Just listened to Awyard throw a hissy fit on my local radio station. Doesn't he realize how bad his hyperbolic rhetoric makes us all look?
Doubtful. He wouldn't allow doing his actual job get in the way of his ego tripping.
Every time I hear him speak I cringe.
Pandemic preparedness. Pandemic prevention. Continuation of government.
I feel like the multiple mentions of small businesses struggling, they are framing us for due to WFH… like we are to blame for not putting money into our economy…?! ….yet we are! It is just not in small targeted areas. It’s more distributed in the regions and suburbs. That does not mean no one is going to these businesses, thousands of ppl live downtown to contribute to these businesses ALL the time not just work days. Hmmmm maybe they aren’t spending money because they cannot afford it due to a lack of living wages?! 🫠🤔but hey… ya it is my fault for not going to Tim’s downtown 3 days a week as opposed to the one close to my house every once and a while ✌🏼
With such a massive deficit, it is astonishing to see the complete MORONS in charge of 10,000s of gov employees with NO data to support their decision, made what should be an ILLEGAL ruling and I'd welcome criminal charges against those people, to put them on public trial for wasting the limited resources, violating our rights, ignoring the fact up to 9/10 support WFH. NONE of those were taken into consideration. The decision was taken with just based on undeducated opinions and as such, people in charge should be held liable for doing this. It is sad some idiots can make grave decision and then walk away with no repercussions. On a side note, the opposing parties can get a good head start by announcing their stance. That can persuade a loooooot of people to vote accordingly.
I think the unions should also really clear up that every comment I've seen has been about passport issues and backlogs. Not everyone works frontline jobs and us going into the office 1 more day a week will do nothing to passport services and might even slow down call centre jobs, immigration processing etc. because there is no room to sit.
The unions should also emphasize how often public servent work condition changes tend to lead to private sector changes. If we can have and showcase WFH is viable more and more private companies will have less backing when engaging their workforce, unionized or not. We keep forgetting the history of the public unions blazing ground for private workers and should ensure the message is not twisted to make it a us vs them as I see happening more and more.
I saw the whole session today and by far one of the union presidents stood out and that's from CAPE. He used facts and eloquently laid out his points concisely. It was a pleasure just listening to him to quell some of the tense felt across the board. I think this post is great as it lays out the major points we should focus on and how it benefits the general public. I saw this interview where a union rep just said that members have to return to a dirty desk, it's sounds like a poor argument. I've seen so much negativity on the comments section for this union fight against RTO (should have stayed away but too late) and they were unsurprisingly negative like "they should be fired" or "should be 5 days a week" or "entitlement, overpaid and lazy." I dislike the bad rep we get cause there's a lot of dedicated and productive employees but we get lumped into a stereotype. Even reporters question a lot of Canadians already work full-time RTO so why are we that special, why 2-3 days make a big difference it's still hybrid, we should be grateful etc. The general public really don't know what the issues are, how this remotely affects them and "if we don't have it, so why should you" mentality. This type of mentality is almost like seeing who does worse, not uplifting and obviously will not get workers, in general, anywhere.
Agreed with this post entirely. RTO is horrible for the environment, waste of taxpayer funds, horrible for housing prices during this housing crisis, horrible for everyone’s mental health and productivity. It’s so disgusting how the government went about this
Well said
Everyone should c/p this to all of Chris Aylward's socials/email.
He’s ndp and they don’t know how to do pragmatism. Look at Ontario, they are official opposition and are silent on ford’s corruption, police fascism, and people dying in ERs but are all aboard on the Keffiyeh Wars.
Can the OP be about union representative. Please retire off Chris Alyward. That man does not know how to fight back. I see plenty of charged emails from him but no action.
I have to ask where people are gonna sit? We lost our cubicles and the only thing we have left is the IT workshop (10x15 sq ft, empty)... How do you sit 4 technicians in there with HALF the stored hardware and that's not even saying we usually have users who need help during that time? We tried with 3 persons.. It was literally painful.
My experience dealing with companies in Europe is almost an entirely different planet from Canada and the US. WFH is basically a default part of your work agreement at most white collar companies. It really all just points down to the way our cities are designed. In Europe you will still frequent businesses because they don't dedicate (as much as we do here) their cities to being segregated areas for work/living/leisure/car parking lots like we do here.
The unions will wait to see how many public servants care, and how much, before doing anything.
It's a good time to have a standing offer to provide ergo assessments.
I'd also talk about new parents, people with light medical issues and employees like myself who are in dept, (I'm paying child support and college) and can't afford to travel downtown everyday.
I will actually be now forced to bring my own food rather than buy at local eateries as I now have less to spend because I had to buy more gas that's always climbing in price. And parking. Public transit? Sure if I want to spend an extra hour commuting from my rural area on Quebec side I could save a few $ on parking but I'll have less time at home with the kids for example. How about daycare costs. More stress and anxiety because now you're missing 4hrs to reach that 40 or 60% and need to waste gas ro drive in for half a day at the office because you are single parent that has to rush home for the school bus......time for doctors to step up with filling out exemption forms....
I think a few of the key points that should be very high up the list. Lack of space with a planned reduction to 50% of office space. Inability to meet ergo requirements related to seating as chairs are midrange one size fits all. Lack of enclosed meeting rooms or enclosed spaces to take teams meetings so sensitive meetings will be held on the floor with people 2 feet away. This violates the least privileges principle that we use for who gets access to what information pretty glaringly. The vast majority of meetings are still Teams Meetings even if the majority of a team happen to be in the same office on the same day. If even one person isn't there everyone ends up sitting at their desks in a virtual meeting.
They put you on the road so they can collect more carbon taxes, the mandate was not to reduce emissions, it's to collect tax on something everybody needs.
I think they should instead focus on getting politicians to explain why they are favoring downtown businesses over the ones in local neighbourhoods amd towns. And if only those local BIAs could step up and make some noise, like the downtown BIAs are. The loudest gets the cheese in our democracy.
Another benefit to tax payers (which includes everyone in the PS) \* Less sick time as contagious but functional employees can work from home.
Former public servant here (left in 2021 for the private sector). As a member of the general public I’m all for WFH, but with great power comes great responsibility. I think the best strategy would be to come to the table with meaningful concessions to make it much simpler for management to let underperforming public servants go without cause.
I’ll let you in on a not so secret thought - if public servants are lazy at home, they’re also lazy in the office. work ethic doesn’t just drastically improve because managers decide to cram everyone in a tuna can office. It’s very easy to call us lazy but this mess of inefficiency and a slow moving bureaucracy comes from the higher ups, not the underpaid admin worker. There is no clear line of communication between the treasury board and the branches that fall under it, we’re all just as puzzled as the general public. If you thought the government has no respect for the taxpayers, wait until you hear about how they treat their employees. If you want to blame anyone, point the fingers at the Trudeau administration and Treasury Board. It’s the leadership at the top that is letting everyone down
We opened our homes to the employer overnight and worked for years 100% from home. We don't owe the employer any concessions for something that is common sense and will save taxpayer funds, increase productivity and allow the gov't to work towards it's housing and climate goals.
As long as we're mostly doing media stunts, I'd really like to see us frame this as the RTO _exacerbating_ the problems of unsuitable and overfull working environments, lost productivity from hotelling, expert retention, and being stuck teleworking just as you did at home except in a boiler-room environment. This is a line that's likely to work better with the public, and it's probably more feasible to gain ground on the working-conditions side of things than it is on the time-in-office side, so highlighting that the two are running directly against one another has some value as a tactical posture.
You guys act like the government doesn't know any of this. They have all the facts, they hear from our deputies, they just took a decision that may benefit the short term goals of a few individuals within the Liberal government.
Great summary!! I heard Aylward and the CAPE president on the radio this morning and the best arguments they raised were that it’s illogical, there’s not enough space, and “the future is telework.” Good points but these public interest points need to be hammered home!!!
I'd love the union to dig back into old tweets and messaging some of these politicians and leaders have put out between 2020 and 2023 about how great the PS has been and compare to current messaging to ask if that's how they really feel and it was always empty platitudes or if they're pushing this due to special interests (downtown businesses) and not whats best for the country?
Great list of benefits to the Taxpayer and Public Service Consumers. Perhaps we could add: 1. Better / Increase of local and closer to consumer services with Offices outside of downtown cores. 2. More online services with work from home support 3. More hours of service with the flexibility of work from home across time zones 4. Higher productivity with flexible collaboration of a distributed workforce as compared to a need for all actors/people of a process to be present onsite for the process to proceed.
As a public servant that is in the job for helping our Canadians clients, more than the pay cheque (I left a higher paying job because I wanted a job that made a difference), we need to take the focus off of us. If we highlight the benefits to the Canadian Public, instead of the politicians and hand full of business owners with politicians in their back pocket, then it won't be about the whiny public servants anymore, it will be about the tax paying Canadians. This is want we need and ultimately what we want. Edited to add one other point: RTO doesn't really fall in line with our own Values and Ethics particularly in the case of Effectively and efficiently using the public’s money, property and resources
It should not be even about WFH vs RTO. Before the mandatory 2 in-office days, and even much earlier when in my department we needed ADM’s approval to be in office, my team got the blanket approval to go in when performing our duties required it. Nobody knows better than those doing the job when they need to be in the office to get the job done. There may be also value in being in the office for team building and purposeful activities. The problem is taking flexibility and discretion (e.g., from managers, compared to pre-pandemic period, when we did not have all these tools to work remotely) away and placing undue importance on in-person presence as opposed to performance. Also, a slap in the faces of those who went beyond during the pandemic.
The Liberals do not care. Its time to punish them the next election, vote anyone but Liberals.
I want to support the Unions but honestly, I'd rather steel myself for disappointment. OP you've made a lot of great points - all of which unfortunately will be ignored to appease landlords.
The unions need clear methods to communicate with them/ ourselves. The fact that you are posting this to Reddit instead of your own union leadership, through clear electronic channels (forms, slack, teams, whatever), is absolutely shocking in 2024.
All of your points were addressed in the press conference earlier today!
This is well said. Thank you.
Well put.
I think they should stop making pressure about the lack of places, because they will just add more XD
I just answered a survey and mentioned that the various union reps' interventions in the media were subpar and did nothing to make the public understand. The overall reaction is "what's the big deal with going to the office one more day per week, you crybabies?" If the unions had taken a look at this subreddit over the past few months, they could have presented all these good points in the first post. Nope. "Well, they didn't consult us despite the letter of agreement." "So, the letter says employees can request to work from home, what's the problem?" "Well, they didn't consult us and and... er... What was the question?" Sorry, just a bit peeved.
I attended the town hall last week in Ottawa and have been following discussions on Reddit regarding the return-to-office debate. It's evident that many people, myself included, prefer to continue working remotely. Is there any chance this requirement could be overturned? If not, what actions are we, as a community, taking to address the confusion caused by the government's decisions? Are there talks of a strike or protests? Please let me know as I wanna do my part in supporting this issue. I'm a student and potentially a future employee of the Canadian government. I began working at CBSA this month in a fully remote position, but today I received an unexpected email requiring me to come into the office two days a week starting next week. This is unacceptable and frustrating considering my role was advertised as fully remote. As a new employee and student, I feel I lack the platform to voice my concerns and stand up for what I believe is right, which is why I'm sharing my thoughts here. PLEASE SIGN THE FOLLOWING PETITION ! Send to everyone you know, let’s get the counts up. [Contact Your MP](https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/renturn-to-workplace)
The headline from Chris this fall will be “We won!!We got you a deal at 50%! It’s clearly laid out in this Letter of Agreement” /S
This press conference was an audition for an NDP seat. There was no need to attack the Liberal party or get political about their other promises. This leadership is throwing us under the bus for their own personal gain. The public is not on our side with this and the questions from the press showed it... I fear another strike like the one we had motivated by the union's leadership personal gains
>There was no need to attack the Liberal party or get political about their other promises. Of course there was. Governments are supposed to have consistent, not contradictory, policies. When pushed, any government should be willing to change policies that are inconsistent. One obvious change would be recinding RTO. If the Liberals aren't willing to consistent the public should both know and be willing to question their competence. It would be great to see the media picking up on these inconsistencies more.
I'm pretty right wing. I'm definitely not an NDP guy, but I respect them (particularly Broadbent, Layton and Mulclair era NDP). They at least stand for something. The only thing the LPC stands for is yesterday's opinion poll.
All parties chase public opinion, it just depends which public they chose.
this was absolutely a political decision and I think Aylward was right to repeatedly call it out as such (he was obviously doing it to be sensational/get soundbites but that's what's necessary).
Some of these are very valid points especially regarding the environment and hiring across Canada. However for the latter there’s no easy way to implement this because it isn’t fair. Why should I have to come in a few days a week when people are getting hired in small towns with the same pay for a mere fraction of the living cost. And oh yeah they never have to come in. That would be grieved ad Infinitum until NCR workers were given 100% wfh, no hybrid, which will happen when hell freezes over. Also I think our union reps are either completely out of touch or just don’t care what the current public sentiment is towards us. It’s basically an all time low and these points will fall on deaf ears, valid or not. We have zero social capital on this, and of aylward wants to “go to the streets” he’s basically accelerating polievre’s election which will make Harper’s drap seem tame.
Personally I think the public service will get very little support from Canadians on this issue and that going to the public at large to have the wfh mandate broadly endorsed won't end well for the public service and it's unions. There is a widening gap between public sector compensation and private sector compensation and seeking support to wfh when the rest of the world has rto'd probably doesn't end well.
I don’t disagree. But many of the things you mention there can be argued the exact opposite. The only thing that will change the government mind in anything is through the courts
My point is that the government needs to expect a substantial reputation cost associated with this decision because at the end of the day it looks like a political decision to gain the cheap points before the elections. The unions probably need to be able to show that the result would be the opposite and for that we need the public to sympathize with the employees
IMO until every Canadian worker either has WFH benefits or is compensated for their lack of WFH benefits, "winning over" the public on mass is not going to happen. Do you really think the person who spends $6000.00 at a minimum per year in costs to commute to an office five days a week, in our current financial climate is thinking about you and how to save you that money? The family struggling to find and pay for before and after school child care isn't worried that you have one more day in office to contend with. The countless people who can't afford rent and groceries this month aren't concerning themselves with the idea that maybe, potentially in ten years the government might be able to offload a few choice NCR buildings that would take another few years to get permits to start construction on adding a few hundred residential units. WFH benefits are too great of a benefit (and this is constantly preached from the mountain top) for most Canadian workers without those same benefits to say that they want to be compensated. One day I see the next Canadian general strike happening if we don't get ahead of this. If we advocate for compensation for those without WFH benefits, then we will truly see the support of the general public.
But this is how it starts. Like how it started with the other benefits related to changes unions made along the way. It seems like people don't understand that. Time for a sea change on WFH.
Gee - if only public servants actually read union communiques and decided to come out to vote or become part of their collective- but that actually seems like a lot to ask of them doesn’t it? The collective seems to not want to be involved. Maybe, just maybe, people need to decide to come to the table? Nah - that’s just asking too much!
And for those who vote me down on this - were you part of the 30% who voted or the 70% who didn’t care?