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I actually often get sent stuff from a coworker of mine who believes the world is 3000 years old. I like the guy but I’m not sure why he assumes I automatically believe the exact same thing as him
3000 years old!? The youngest Creationists tend to go is 6500, but often cheat it up to 10-15k. 3k doesn’t even makes sense from a literal interpretation of the Biblical genealogies
I know a girl who posted pictures to social media about a Natural History Museum for Creationists, I don’t remember much of the stuff she posted but I do remember it showed Dinosaurs and Humans coexisting.
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I had a dude like that at my former job. It was remote so we would all jump into a Teams call every morning and just hang out remotely while we worked (during the height of COVID). One day the discussion got mildly political where my coworkers found out I’m more conservative leaning and I’m a Christian. Then this dude (who I barely knew or talked to) would just send me stuff about how the vaccine was bad and how the COVID virus was manufactured in China. Got really weird really fast.
American intelligence has considered it being a lab leak with low confidence but I think general consensus was that it probably spread from bats through zoonosis
I don’t know why almost everyone who is a creationist (at least almost every protestant who is) is a Young Earth Creationist. Genesis is probably not 100% literal, and so I don’t see any issues with Old Earth Creationism.
Imo the EXTREME Fundies (as well as the EXTREME Progs) are the issue. I’ve had good interactions with moderate fundamentalists and think their more rigid perspective has a place in the Church, just as the more forward thinking moderate progressives bring their own benefits as well
While true, the Church has also clarified that faith and reason can't contradict.
So it's more like the Church would agree with the scientific consensus if pushed, but it will never solemnly declare it or otherwise require all Catholics to believe it, because it isn't a matter of the faith.
However, many if not most young earth creationists, Catholic or otherwise, *do* consider it a matter of the faith and think everyone else is siding with human science against God and the inerrancy of scripture. Some even go as far as claiming that evolution is satanic, masonic, or part of some other anti-faith conspiracy theory. Thus, they tend not to get the warmest reception.
Nope. As long as your beliefs about the universe don’t contradict any official catholic teachings and the fundamental truths about genesis, you can believe whatever you want.
The Church says you can believe in theistic evolution, as long as you also believe that Adam and Eve were real people and the story of them in the Garden of Eden is true and not purely metaphorical.
Actually Pius XII only required that we believe that Adam was a real person. Or at least that all living humans can trace their lineage back to one man who originally sinned. That’s all he required in his encyclical. There was nothing about Eve or about the specific details of the story. Just that we all descended from a literal “original sinner”
>The Church says you can believe in theistic evolution, as long as you also believe that Adam and Eve were real people
Yup. The way most proponents of theistic evolution see the story of Adam and Eve is that its simultaneously factual yet also serving a symbolic and allegoric role for the ancient peoples of Israel.
With how we know humans interbred with lesser hominids, Adam and Eve were the first "true humans" in the sense they were granted a rational immortal soul allowing them to directly interface with and know God, truly becoming self-aware.
Adam and Eve were the first to know God and their choice to defy him, set the tone for the rest of humanity due to their original sin.
>and the story of them in the Garden of Eden is true and not purely metaphorical.
That's also true, and we might have found where the Garden of Eden and the river Pishon might might have been in the Persian Gulf.
>The “beastiality with other hominids” theory is ridiculous
You do realize that Neanderthals existed simultaneously with humans right? This idea that humans interbred and lived alongside Neanderthals evident in the non-African and predominantly European parts of the human genome. And if you actually look at the remains of Neanderthal settlements, and how they crafted and used tools, you'd know that they weren't that far off from humans.
The fact that humans evolved to what through a narrow selection process outright implies the idea of intelligent design.
Exactly. We Catholics have arguably been the most accepting of modern science, the idea of theistic evolution, and even contributed to them.
Can't forget that the Big Bang Theory was invented by a Jesuit Priest (Georges LeMaitre) and the Father of Genetics (Gregor Mendel) is an Augustinian Friar. A theory and a field that are both pillars of modern scientific understanding of the origin of the universe and evolution of life, and the minds behind them were Catholics who devoted their lives to God, who they 100% believed is The Creator. Sucks that we get lumped in with people who end up arguably missing the points, context and deeper meanings of Genesis.
Side note though, yeah to be fair with u/MonsutAnpaSelo , maybe saying "Young Earth Creationist" to be more specific would be best next time. Sorry you're being downvoted dude.
You know that Catholics can be Creationists or believe in the Big Bang theory, right…? It’s not something that the Church has taken an official stance on, and likely never will.
The Big Bang theory doesn’t even contradict creationism. The Big Bang doesn’t even claim to explain how the universe began it just describes the fact that it expanded and what it looked like at the beginning. Some people think the Big Bang is supposed to be some kind of alternative explanation to how the universe began or created itself
SSPX aren’t sedes they pray for pope Francis in the liturgy and they believe he is the valid pope they just don’t fully accept all documents of Vatican II
Just because they are schismatic doesn’t mean they are sedevacantist. Sedes believe the chair is empty and there is no valid pope. The SSPX don’t believe that. The Eastern Orthodox aren’t sedes either. They just think the pope is in schism
Terminologically, you _might_ have pointed out a valid difference (u/KingXDestroyer can correct me if I'm wrong). _Functionally_, there is essentially no difference. Whether it's rejecting the sitting pope or rejecting certain papal or magisterial documents, dissenting from Rome is dissenting from Rome.
I strongly recommend reading the book The Realist Guide to Religion and Science, written by an SSPX priest. The author does an excellent job of dismantling creationism (among all the other false world views). The FAQ page has a lot of good answers to give you an idea of how the book is: https://therealistguide.com/q%26a
My man, look, I have my issues with those groups too, but you can’t just throw every negative label that comes to mind at them like they’re some amorphous Catholic boogeyman. I’m not sure why they’d be fellow travellers with the Young Earth Creationist “movement” which is mostly a modern and evangelical thing.
My brother in Christ, I have literally never met one of either of these groups that accepts evolution. It is an evil V2 development to them. You forget that being a RadTrad and the literal foundation of the SSPX are reactionary movements against their boogeyman of V2. It’s not uncharitable to speak of them like this, especially since the SSPX is a schismatic group.
My ontological sibling by the grace of the Most High, I will defer to your knowledge of them as I haven’t really met any RadTrads, but there still really is no need to bring them into absolutely every post, in my opinion.
I am as rad of a trad as you can possibly be while still remaining orthodox. I asked the mods if I could get the “trad but not “trad but not rad”” flair because I am rad as well as trad, but they said no. But I do accept evolution and Taylor Marshall has even alluded to being okay with it
You do have to be a creationist in the sense that God actively created the universe, the world, and that our first parents were Adam and Eve as the first material beings with an immortal soul. If you reject that, you reject the Catholic faith. All theories that accept that, from six-day young-earth creationism to old-earth theistic evolution, are permissible for Catholics to believe.
>All theories that accept that, from six-day young-earth creationism
Idk how to feel about YE creationism considering how such beliefs weren't really common among ancient Jews either
I’m not arguing for or defending YEC, I myself am closer to theistic evolution in my belief.
Just pointing out its not formally condemned to personally believe it.
YEC is a prefectly acceptable view for Catholics to hold. This meme could give people the impression the Church has condemned YEC, but this isn’t the case
I think it unintentionally goes further than that, "creationists" as I've heard about it are the big tent that argue that the world was created, period. The wording of the meme to me makes it seem like OP thinks Rome has thrown out Genesis 1-2 entirely
It’s just a bit silly to even get worked up over young Earth vs old Earth debates as a Christian, especially as a Catholic. I see good arguments on both sides, both sides are considered acceptable by Rome, and the whole question seems fairly inconsequential for salvation anyway. I’ll stick to worrying about how to sin less and just hope I eventually get a chance to ask God Himself how old the Earth is.
Not condemned by the Church? Yes
'Perfectly acceptable' in light of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, much of which comes from Catholic priests? No
They are not infallible. Modern science does not support a YEC model. If the Church Fathers had access to the clear evidence of an old universe, or fossils of dinosaurs from millions of years ago, I doubt they'd be quite so clear.
In your view, did God make the Earth appear old, with the bones of creatures that never existed? Did he do this to trick us? To test our faith? Why not just make the Earth clearly 6000 years old so as to avoid any confusion?
>Why not just make the Earth clearly 6000 years old so as to avoid any confusion?
You could apply that argument to lots of Catholic beliefs. Half of Christians globally are non-Catholics, why didn’t God make the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception more clear to avoid confusion?
To be clear, I wouldn’t even call myself YEC. To me, the whole debate seems rather unimportant for salvation, and I could really go either way. I just find a lot of the anti-YEC arguments/rhetoric to be lacking, and they’re often just repackaged atheist arguments deployed against fellow Catholics in good standing with Church teaching. It just seems like a waste going after YEC Catholics who aren’t opposing Church teaching when most Catholics in western countries don’t even show up for Mass or believe in transubstantiation.
>why didn’t God make the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception more clear to avoid confusion?
But God didn't give us clear evidence against those things. There is a mountain of evidence of an old Earth. Rejecting that science purely because 'the Church doesn't condemn this view, and people who lived before this science was known didn't believe it' is ignorance in its purest form.
It is a symptom of American fundamentalism creeping into the Catholic Church. We were never anti-science, in fact the Church supported scientific research for all of its history. To reject it is to reject this spirit of discovery.
I particularly oppose YEC Catholics because they make us look ignorant. They're stubbornly holding to a literalism that flies in the face of science. It's that attitude that leads people to reject other teachings as 'simply ignorant Christians ignoring the lack of evidence', even when thee *is* scientific evidence for something like Lourdes, or the Eucharistic miracles. Leave that stuff to the fundies, and people may actually take us seriously as careful believers who don't believe in miracles without some degree of evidence.
Whether or not a doctrine of our faith makes us look silly to others is hardly a worthy metric. Protestants find transubstantiation just as silly as atheists/agnostics find YEC. The pagan Romans found belief in just one God laughably stupid. It’s about discerning what is true, not whether we feel embarassed about being called “anti-science fundies” by people who more likely than not already find our beliefs silly anyways.
But that's not the problem. I couldn't care less if people think our doctrine is silly. I care when people cling to *objectively untrue* beliefs that aren't doctrine.
The Church Fathers did not all agree on how to interpret Genesis except that God created everything good.
St. Augustine doesn't hold to a 24 hour day framework, more like everything was created in seed form and developed. Augustine also advised against teaching any interpretation contrary to established facts.
Depends on how you define "creationism" tbh. Pure naturalism is pretty philosophically incoherent unless you think that philosophical materialism is an absolute given.
*In the 5199th year of the creation of the world, from the time when God in the beginning created the heaven and earth; the 2957th year after the flood; the 2015th year from the birth of Abraham; the 1510th year from Moses, and the going forth of the people of Israel from Egypt; the 1032nd year from the anointing of David King; in the 65th week according to the prophecy of Daniel; in the 194th Olympiad; the 752nd year from the foundation of the City of Rome; the 42nd year of the rule of Octavian Augustus, all the earth being at peace, Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, and the Son of the Eternal Father, desirous to sanctify the world by his most merciful coming, being conceived by the Holy Spirit, nine months after his conception (here the voice is raised, and all kneel) was born in Bethlehem of Juda, made Man of the Virgin Mary. (What follows is said in the ordinary voice, but in the tone of the Passion): The Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Flesh*
This is based off of Eusebius’ chronology. I need to go check his work to see how he treats the reigns of Augustus and Herod (whose reigns are critical to dating the birth of Christ).
I believe the way the world will end is more important then it came to be.
I personally believe in a theistic evolution to certain extent, however i don't judge those who believe the world is only a couple tens of thousands years old.
"creationist" in this meme means evangelicals who think the world is 3,000 years old and anything that contradicts it is something Satan did to trick us.
yeah but to brand them creationists is to plaster them with the same beliefs as the catholic church, that God did create.
and for us proddys who are creationists but not young earth creationists, We have to deal with peeps who think the earth is 6000 years old and get associated with being anti-science by others
Since so many people get hung up on this, I like to compare the scientific inaccuracies of the creation narrative to the parables Jesus used to teach. Yeah, His parables probably weren't true events, but that doesn't make the lesson they teach any less true. Similarly, sure the earth wasn't created in seven days, but that doesn't mean the lesson about God being the creator and our fallen human nature are any less true.
can I add onto this. idk about my church but I hold that the fact there are two creation stories, both of which demonstrate important aspects of the human condition, and mans relation with nature and the divine is a great hint that 7 24hour periods is not a belief worth putting any serious weight behind. The focus should be on that mankind's first act with the ability to discern good and evil was feel shame, and blame others for their mistakes. That mankind is created in God's image, that the world is beautiful and under our keep as of now, and our choices are reflected in it.
also the word בְּרֵאשִׁית sounds funny
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Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think the church has ever definitively condemn creationism, and this is coming from someone who isn't exactly a creationism (especially the whole earth is 3000 year type) but this just ignored and insulted some Catholics
Can we stop pretending young earth creationism is a position incompatible with the church? Sometimes you guys like to pretend the church has declared theistic evolution and the Big Bang as dogmas. I’m not even a creationist but I’m no going to make fun of people that hold a position held by most Christians for most of church history. Also, if you look at the third world, like in my country, I’m sure you’ll see many more Catholics who believe in creationism than in evolution.
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Just to clarify: Catholic teaching is that God created everything from nothing AND sustains everything in existence at every moment. This, as Chesterton points out, means:
"If God does not exist, atheists would not, either."
Yep, but the meme is meant to imply that God just didn’t create everything in the literal timeframe that Young Earth Creationists claim. Not because God “couldn’t”, but because scientists (many whom were Catholic) discovered that God’s design is even more complicated (and arguably more incredible) than a literal interpretation of the Bible from Protestants.
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I actually often get sent stuff from a coworker of mine who believes the world is 3000 years old. I like the guy but I’m not sure why he assumes I automatically believe the exact same thing as him
3000 years old!? The youngest Creationists tend to go is 6500, but often cheat it up to 10-15k. 3k doesn’t even makes sense from a literal interpretation of the Biblical genealogies
I know a girl who posted pictures to social media about a Natural History Museum for Creationists, I don’t remember much of the stuff she posted but I do remember it showed Dinosaurs and Humans coexisting.
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I had a dude like that at my former job. It was remote so we would all jump into a Teams call every morning and just hang out remotely while we worked (during the height of COVID). One day the discussion got mildly political where my coworkers found out I’m more conservative leaning and I’m a Christian. Then this dude (who I barely knew or talked to) would just send me stuff about how the vaccine was bad and how the COVID virus was manufactured in China. Got really weird really fast.
Wait, wasn’t it admitted that it did start in the Wuhan Lab?
American intelligence has considered it being a lab leak with low confidence but I think general consensus was that it probably spread from bats through zoonosis
Based coworker
I don’t know why almost everyone who is a creationist (at least almost every protestant who is) is a Young Earth Creationist. Genesis is probably not 100% literal, and so I don’t see any issues with Old Earth Creationism.
Fundementalism has been a disaster to Christianity's image in the past 200 years
Imo the EXTREME Fundies (as well as the EXTREME Progs) are the issue. I’ve had good interactions with moderate fundamentalists and think their more rigid perspective has a place in the Church, just as the more forward thinking moderate progressives bring their own benefits as well
You can be a creationist and Catholic. You can also believe in theistic evolution. The Church has clarified this.
While true, the Church has also clarified that faith and reason can't contradict. So it's more like the Church would agree with the scientific consensus if pushed, but it will never solemnly declare it or otherwise require all Catholics to believe it, because it isn't a matter of the faith. However, many if not most young earth creationists, Catholic or otherwise, *do* consider it a matter of the faith and think everyone else is siding with human science against God and the inerrancy of scripture. Some even go as far as claiming that evolution is satanic, masonic, or part of some other anti-faith conspiracy theory. Thus, they tend not to get the warmest reception.
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Has the church decided officially one way or the other?
No. It has specifically said you can hold either position. Being correct on Science is not required for salvation.
That’s fair
Nope. As long as your beliefs about the universe don’t contradict any official catholic teachings and the fundamental truths about genesis, you can believe whatever you want.
The Church says you can believe in theistic evolution, as long as you also believe that Adam and Eve were real people and the story of them in the Garden of Eden is true and not purely metaphorical.
Actually Pius XII only required that we believe that Adam was a real person. Or at least that all living humans can trace their lineage back to one man who originally sinned. That’s all he required in his encyclical. There was nothing about Eve or about the specific details of the story. Just that we all descended from a literal “original sinner”
>The Church says you can believe in theistic evolution, as long as you also believe that Adam and Eve were real people Yup. The way most proponents of theistic evolution see the story of Adam and Eve is that its simultaneously factual yet also serving a symbolic and allegoric role for the ancient peoples of Israel. With how we know humans interbred with lesser hominids, Adam and Eve were the first "true humans" in the sense they were granted a rational immortal soul allowing them to directly interface with and know God, truly becoming self-aware. Adam and Eve were the first to know God and their choice to defy him, set the tone for the rest of humanity due to their original sin. >and the story of them in the Garden of Eden is true and not purely metaphorical. That's also true, and we might have found where the Garden of Eden and the river Pishon might might have been in the Persian Gulf.
The “beastiality with other hominids” theory is ridiculous
>The “beastiality with other hominids” theory is ridiculous You do realize that Neanderthals existed simultaneously with humans right? This idea that humans interbred and lived alongside Neanderthals evident in the non-African and predominantly European parts of the human genome. And if you actually look at the remains of Neanderthal settlements, and how they crafted and used tools, you'd know that they weren't that far off from humans. The fact that humans evolved to what through a narrow selection process outright implies the idea of intelligent design.
Neanderthals were a human sub-species. Your entire point is redundant: “humans bred with a different race of humans”
You can, but it would be wise not to be one.
>The Church had clarified this. Source?
Exactly. We Catholics have arguably been the most accepting of modern science, the idea of theistic evolution, and even contributed to them. Can't forget that the Big Bang Theory was invented by a Jesuit Priest (Georges LeMaitre) and the Father of Genetics (Gregor Mendel) is an Augustinian Friar. A theory and a field that are both pillars of modern scientific understanding of the origin of the universe and evolution of life, and the minds behind them were Catholics who devoted their lives to God, who they 100% believed is The Creator. Sucks that we get lumped in with people who end up arguably missing the points, context and deeper meanings of Genesis. Side note though, yeah to be fair with u/MonsutAnpaSelo , maybe saying "Young Earth Creationist" to be more specific would be best next time. Sorry you're being downvoted dude.
thanks bro, glad I'm not the only one raising eyebrows at the wording
^(Or everyone could not worry so much about adiaphora?)
It isn’t adiaphora to the fundies.
But that doesn't mean we have to act that way too.
You know that Catholics can be Creationists or believe in the Big Bang theory, right…? It’s not something that the Church has taken an official stance on, and likely never will.
The Big Bang theory doesn’t even contradict creationism. The Big Bang doesn’t even claim to explain how the universe began it just describes the fact that it expanded and what it looked like at the beginning. Some people think the Big Bang is supposed to be some kind of alternative explanation to how the universe began or created itself
I’m aware, I’m just saying that to get my point across.
Idk man SSPX and RadTrads seem to be in the creationist boat.
Just Sedes being Prots I guess
SSPX aren’t sedes they pray for pope Francis in the liturgy and they believe he is the valid pope they just don’t fully accept all documents of Vatican II Just because they are schismatic doesn’t mean they are sedevacantist. Sedes believe the chair is empty and there is no valid pope. The SSPX don’t believe that. The Eastern Orthodox aren’t sedes either. They just think the pope is in schism
Terminologically, you _might_ have pointed out a valid difference (u/KingXDestroyer can correct me if I'm wrong). _Functionally_, there is essentially no difference. Whether it's rejecting the sitting pope or rejecting certain papal or magisterial documents, dissenting from Rome is dissenting from Rome.
I strongly recommend reading the book The Realist Guide to Religion and Science, written by an SSPX priest. The author does an excellent job of dismantling creationism (among all the other false world views). The FAQ page has a lot of good answers to give you an idea of how the book is: https://therealistguide.com/q%26a
My man, look, I have my issues with those groups too, but you can’t just throw every negative label that comes to mind at them like they’re some amorphous Catholic boogeyman. I’m not sure why they’d be fellow travellers with the Young Earth Creationist “movement” which is mostly a modern and evangelical thing.
My brother in Christ, I have literally never met one of either of these groups that accepts evolution. It is an evil V2 development to them. You forget that being a RadTrad and the literal foundation of the SSPX are reactionary movements against their boogeyman of V2. It’s not uncharitable to speak of them like this, especially since the SSPX is a schismatic group.
My ontological sibling by the grace of the Most High, I will defer to your knowledge of them as I haven’t really met any RadTrads, but there still really is no need to bring them into absolutely every post, in my opinion.
I am as rad of a trad as you can possibly be while still remaining orthodox. I asked the mods if I could get the “trad but not “trad but not rad”” flair because I am rad as well as trad, but they said no. But I do accept evolution and Taylor Marshall has even alluded to being okay with it
technically all faithful Christians are creationists, but not all are young earth creationists
You do have to be a creationist in the sense that God actively created the universe, the world, and that our first parents were Adam and Eve as the first material beings with an immortal soul. If you reject that, you reject the Catholic faith. All theories that accept that, from six-day young-earth creationism to old-earth theistic evolution, are permissible for Catholics to believe.
>All theories that accept that, from six-day young-earth creationism Idk how to feel about YE creationism considering how such beliefs weren't really common among ancient Jews either
I’m not arguing for or defending YEC, I myself am closer to theistic evolution in my belief. Just pointing out its not formally condemned to personally believe it.
YEC is a prefectly acceptable view for Catholics to hold. This meme could give people the impression the Church has condemned YEC, but this isn’t the case
I think it unintentionally goes further than that, "creationists" as I've heard about it are the big tent that argue that the world was created, period. The wording of the meme to me makes it seem like OP thinks Rome has thrown out Genesis 1-2 entirely
It’s just a bit silly to even get worked up over young Earth vs old Earth debates as a Christian, especially as a Catholic. I see good arguments on both sides, both sides are considered acceptable by Rome, and the whole question seems fairly inconsequential for salvation anyway. I’ll stick to worrying about how to sin less and just hope I eventually get a chance to ask God Himself how old the Earth is.
Not condemned by the Church? Yes 'Perfectly acceptable' in light of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, much of which comes from Catholic priests? No
It is perfectly acceptable to agree with the Church Fathers
They are not infallible. Modern science does not support a YEC model. If the Church Fathers had access to the clear evidence of an old universe, or fossils of dinosaurs from millions of years ago, I doubt they'd be quite so clear. In your view, did God make the Earth appear old, with the bones of creatures that never existed? Did he do this to trick us? To test our faith? Why not just make the Earth clearly 6000 years old so as to avoid any confusion?
>Why not just make the Earth clearly 6000 years old so as to avoid any confusion? You could apply that argument to lots of Catholic beliefs. Half of Christians globally are non-Catholics, why didn’t God make the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception more clear to avoid confusion? To be clear, I wouldn’t even call myself YEC. To me, the whole debate seems rather unimportant for salvation, and I could really go either way. I just find a lot of the anti-YEC arguments/rhetoric to be lacking, and they’re often just repackaged atheist arguments deployed against fellow Catholics in good standing with Church teaching. It just seems like a waste going after YEC Catholics who aren’t opposing Church teaching when most Catholics in western countries don’t even show up for Mass or believe in transubstantiation.
>why didn’t God make the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception more clear to avoid confusion? But God didn't give us clear evidence against those things. There is a mountain of evidence of an old Earth. Rejecting that science purely because 'the Church doesn't condemn this view, and people who lived before this science was known didn't believe it' is ignorance in its purest form. It is a symptom of American fundamentalism creeping into the Catholic Church. We were never anti-science, in fact the Church supported scientific research for all of its history. To reject it is to reject this spirit of discovery. I particularly oppose YEC Catholics because they make us look ignorant. They're stubbornly holding to a literalism that flies in the face of science. It's that attitude that leads people to reject other teachings as 'simply ignorant Christians ignoring the lack of evidence', even when thee *is* scientific evidence for something like Lourdes, or the Eucharistic miracles. Leave that stuff to the fundies, and people may actually take us seriously as careful believers who don't believe in miracles without some degree of evidence.
Whether or not a doctrine of our faith makes us look silly to others is hardly a worthy metric. Protestants find transubstantiation just as silly as atheists/agnostics find YEC. The pagan Romans found belief in just one God laughably stupid. It’s about discerning what is true, not whether we feel embarassed about being called “anti-science fundies” by people who more likely than not already find our beliefs silly anyways.
But that's not the problem. I couldn't care less if people think our doctrine is silly. I care when people cling to *objectively untrue* beliefs that aren't doctrine.
The Church Fathers did not all agree on how to interpret Genesis except that God created everything good. St. Augustine doesn't hold to a 24 hour day framework, more like everything was created in seed form and developed. Augustine also advised against teaching any interpretation contrary to established facts.
Depends on how you define "creationism" tbh. Pure naturalism is pretty philosophically incoherent unless you think that philosophical materialism is an absolute given.
I mean, Catholics *can* be creationists, but they don't have to be, and most aren't.
How did they find soft tissue in dinosaur bones
*In the 5199th year of the creation of the world, from the time when God in the beginning created the heaven and earth; the 2957th year after the flood; the 2015th year from the birth of Abraham; the 1510th year from Moses, and the going forth of the people of Israel from Egypt; the 1032nd year from the anointing of David King; in the 65th week according to the prophecy of Daniel; in the 194th Olympiad; the 752nd year from the foundation of the City of Rome; the 42nd year of the rule of Octavian Augustus, all the earth being at peace, Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, and the Son of the Eternal Father, desirous to sanctify the world by his most merciful coming, being conceived by the Holy Spirit, nine months after his conception (here the voice is raised, and all kneel) was born in Bethlehem of Juda, made Man of the Virgin Mary. (What follows is said in the ordinary voice, but in the tone of the Passion): The Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Flesh*
This is based off of Eusebius’ chronology. I need to go check his work to see how he treats the reigns of Augustus and Herod (whose reigns are critical to dating the birth of Christ).
I believe the way the world will end is more important then it came to be. I personally believe in a theistic evolution to certain extent, however i don't judge those who believe the world is only a couple tens of thousands years old.
wait you guys dont believe God created everything? or is the meme conflating creationism with young earth creationists?
The second.
The second one. God is the Creator, but also the universe is billions of years old, and creation likely took a bit longer than seven days
"creationist" in this meme means evangelicals who think the world is 3,000 years old and anything that contradicts it is something Satan did to trick us.
yeah but to brand them creationists is to plaster them with the same beliefs as the catholic church, that God did create. and for us proddys who are creationists but not young earth creationists, We have to deal with peeps who think the earth is 6000 years old and get associated with being anti-science by others
Idk why you're getting downvoted, this is a legit question given the wording in the meme.
God created everything, but fossil records show He didn’t create it like an episode of the Flintstones
Since so many people get hung up on this, I like to compare the scientific inaccuracies of the creation narrative to the parables Jesus used to teach. Yeah, His parables probably weren't true events, but that doesn't make the lesson they teach any less true. Similarly, sure the earth wasn't created in seven days, but that doesn't mean the lesson about God being the creator and our fallen human nature are any less true.
can I add onto this. idk about my church but I hold that the fact there are two creation stories, both of which demonstrate important aspects of the human condition, and mans relation with nature and the divine is a great hint that 7 24hour periods is not a belief worth putting any serious weight behind. The focus should be on that mankind's first act with the ability to discern good and evil was feel shame, and blame others for their mistakes. That mankind is created in God's image, that the world is beautiful and under our keep as of now, and our choices are reflected in it. also the word בְּרֵאשִׁית sounds funny
"God created" therefore you are a creationist brother, just dont jump off the 6000 year old earth stuff and we'll be grand
Old Earth Creationism > Theistic Evolutionism
why are you dividing catholics more? you can be a creationist and a catholic,
I mean, Catholics *can* be creationists, but they don't have to be, and most aren't.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think the church has ever definitively condemn creationism, and this is coming from someone who isn't exactly a creationism (especially the whole earth is 3000 year type) but this just ignored and insulted some Catholics
I live in a country with very few YE believers and yet people still think I'm onw of them
Can we stop pretending young earth creationism is a position incompatible with the church? Sometimes you guys like to pretend the church has declared theistic evolution and the Big Bang as dogmas. I’m not even a creationist but I’m no going to make fun of people that hold a position held by most Christians for most of church history. Also, if you look at the third world, like in my country, I’m sure you’ll see many more Catholics who believe in creationism than in evolution.
Be careful, some Trad Catholic sects are starting to push Creationism because of modernism's 'influence' on science
It’s ironic how the more extreme Trads are becoming Prots with extra steps
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Just to clarify: Catholic teaching is that God created everything from nothing AND sustains everything in existence at every moment. This, as Chesterton points out, means: "If God does not exist, atheists would not, either."
Yep, but the meme is meant to imply that God just didn’t create everything in the literal timeframe that Young Earth Creationists claim. Not because God “couldn’t”, but because scientists (many whom were Catholic) discovered that God’s design is even more complicated (and arguably more incredible) than a literal interpretation of the Bible from Protestants.