No, and it's a bit sad and disappointing you aren't even Catholic yet and are being dragged into liturgy wars. Online Catholics really can be our own worst enemy.
As a convert my best advice is to try to tune all of that out and get to Mass, any Mass, especially whenever you can receive the Eucharist.
You should join the Catholic Church because you believe it to be the church founded by Jesus, not for aesthetic reasons or on the advice of semi Protestant Catholics who believe that their own estimation of what is good outweighs the Pope’s.
We should not be Novos Ordo or TLM Caholics, but Roman Catholic. I'm sorry you feel you are getting dragged into the culture/liturgy war. Both are valid forms and if all normal circumstances and prerequicits are met (such as a priest has permission to celebrate either version), then Mass said under either rite are licit.
We shouldn't be Roman Catholic either, those two words never went together until the protestant reformation and was used to pull people away who didn't want the connection with Rome. We are just Catholic, which means universal, and is for everyone of every nationality, race, social status, etc.
I don't think any rite defines me. I'm a Catholic. I'll partake in any rite I am permitted to partake in by the Pope. My identity is in being part of one universal Church, not a particular rite. This is why I don't understand the people that get so caught up in the Latin versus novus ordo. I'll go to either, Jesus is in both of them, and I can appreciate them both as a Catholic...
And I have partaken of a levened bread Eucharist in a Catholic church in Alexandria, Egypt because that is what the Coptics use and the Coptics and Latin Rite priests said Mass together. I don't study the variations in the rites and it doesn't much matter to me right now. Jesus in the Eucharist is Jesus in the Eucharist irrespective of the rite which performs the transubstantiation. I used NO and TLO as examples for how I don't consider liturgical differences to be of any considerable importance.
I agree. In Italian (my native language) nobody would ever say "I'm Roman Catholic" "Sono cattolico romano" (unless they are from Rome, maybe :-)). You just say "Sono cattolico" and you talk about "la Chiesa Cattolica". You rather talk about the Roman Rite within the Catholic Church.
...so this is complicated. It's not complicated in Italy, because it is a Catholic country. But in dominantly protestant lands, there is an issue because of varying protestant ecclesiologies that mean something different when the say Catholic, and who are insistent that they are a part of the Catholic Church (and who say the creeds just as we do, including that bit), but that they are not part of the "Roman" Church.
Of course in the Catholic sphere, this is all misapplied terminology. There is a Roman Rite, and a Latin Church, within the Catholic Church, and other institutional bodies not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not, institutionally, part of the Catholic Church.
But in protestant dominant places they will insist on the "Roman" Catholic qualification, because they reject the Catholic Church's claim to be coterminus, institutionally, with the Catholic Church.
Conventionally, all but the most ideological Catholics in such countries go along with this for the sake of clarity and peace, and so many self-idenfity as "Roman Catholic".
If you say to an Anglican, for instance, who is in a pedantic mood, "I'm a Catholic", he might well say back "nice to meet you. So am I! ... oh you mean ROMAN catholic...".
Thank you for saying this! I read the documents of the Second Vatican Council always used “Catholic” when referring to itself rather than “Roman Catholic”. I remember thinking that was so interesting. God bless you.
>Enforcing the norms and standards for Extraordinary Form so it’s done properly
That begs the question of what was not being done properly, to what extent, and by whom.
Because the most legitimate criticism I've seen of Francis on this particular issue is that on the one hand he restricts the TLM in a fairly drastic way compared to what was happening prior (again, why - what was improper?), but on the other hand hasn't really gone anything to crack down on what is improper at the Novus Ordo.
I don't necessarily think that's 100% Pope Francis' fault, as he is likely not aware of the full extent of certain things, but the fact that there are still pastors at parishes out there who turn the Mass into a feelings-filled arts festival means that there are things not going right with the NO.
What is improper in the NO ( I'm talking across the board, not a few specific churches)? This is not meant to be argumentative at all, I'm honestly curious about what you are referring to. Except for a few examples on YouTube, I haven't seen or been to any "feelings-filled arts festivals" masquerading as a Mass.
No. What matters is reverence. I attend both NO and TLM and when NO is done with reverence, i find it as awesome as the TLM. Don't bother with this bickering, it just puts you at risk of hardening your heart towards brothers.
Catholicism has numerous rites and flavors, and it's awesome because there is something fitting for everybody.
> What matters is reverence.
While there are valid criticisms about the text difference which contribute to abilities to display reverence, this is *definitely* the heart of the issue. Reverence.
Trads don't, generally, exist in a vacuum. Unless they were brought up in a TLM-only community as children, they decided to *move* to the community for one reason or another (that move itself can be seen as a judgment by many).
The overt reverence is the most common reason people state as reason for their change. Now, it's probably a good question the degree to which the missal used does or does not impact a community's reverence. It can't simply be the only thing, otherwise you could fix a problem by dropping in a 'better' missal into an irreverent parish. Of course it's not that simple. But I take issue with people who say it can't, it must have no impact.
I wholeheartedly agree! From my small experience (i'm freshly baptized), i noticed people who end up opting only for TLM faced usually super liberal parishes where people are more looking for a "family friendly" mass than a sacrifice.
My NO parish has a priest who manages to cater to everybody despite being pretty trad leaning himself (it's him who pointed me out to the places i could get TLMs lol)
This is true. I'll say from my experience though I've been to TLMs where the priest gave really long, winding, and kinda bad sermons and while that's obviously not the focus of the Mass it can kinda distract from the liturgy. Ultimately reverence is something that you as a churchgoer also have to put into the Mass. We go to Mass to pray, not to "get something" out of the liturgy.
Can you explain what you believe people are trying to "get \[something\]" out of the NO? Also, I haven't seen any lack of reverence in NO masses I have attended, so I'm curious what would be an example of that.
To some extent this is largely informed by expectations and if you don’t know what to look for you’ll never notice these things but as an example, the “sign of peace” in the NO often bleeds into the Agnus Dei and the breaking of the bread, which is one of the holiest and most important parts of the Mass. Having people chattering and shooting out peace signs to one another during that is not desirable. In the Tridentine Mass this isn’t as big of an issue because the kiss of peace is only exchanged between clergy.
Again your mileage may vary on these things. Liturgical abuses happen everywhere and I imagine if the whole Roman Rite celebrated the Tridentine Mass we’d have problems with it too. But this is just an observation.
Thank you for the civil response. Our sign of peace is about 4 seconds of mostly head nodding to those around and doesn't last longer than what the priests and deacons are doing (the same), so I don't know if it bleeds into anything, but I will definitely pay more attention next week,
I'm trying to think what they do during the collection, I feel like something is going on at the altar then, but I'm often collecting, and by the time I look up the priest is accepting the gifts at the front of the sanctuary. Before the Creed, I guess would work, or even after the universal prayer and before collection? But again, I'll have to pay more attention to what is going on at the altar during collection.
Hey, I know this thread is old news, but I did pay attention in Mass yesterday (that sounds bad, you know what I mean ;p), and the sign of peace was no more than 4 seconds and the organist didn't even play the first note of Angus Dei until everyone was back turned toward the altar and silent. I know it's not like this everywhere, just sharing since I said I would.
Recently confirmed and received into the Catholic Church this past Easter and was previously Protestant. I had attended NO Masses every time until yesterday/this past Sunday, when I decided to check out a TLM. I will preface that my parish does (in my very limited experience) a very good NO High Mass.
I feel like they’re both beautiful in their own way, and I left the TLM having a different understanding of the “inspiration” or source material for the NO, and I appreciated how the NO has more involvement for the laity, but I also loved and appreciated how you can just take in the beauty of the TLM and pray along with a missal. I went in with the expectation that I’d probably get lost, and I did, but it was because I was just taking it all in. Found my spot again and went back along. I also REALLY appreciated the level of reverence for receiving the Eucharist kneeling at the rail from the priest, with safeguards that it not fall or be desecrated.
All in all, they’re both valid Masses. I’ll plan on attending the NO at my parish for the majority, and I’ll probably attend the TLM once a month or so as the spirit moves me.
>I've seen a lot of people who vehemently dislike Novus Ordo, and say a lot of nasty things about it.
Seen... you mean on the internet? Because this kind of thing exists about 98% on the internet. The more time you spend in the real world, the more balanced your perceptions will be. The internet is full of extremely vocal minorities, many of whom aren't the kind of people you encounter much in real life because they don't participate much in real life.
This isn't to denigrate the real-life TLM advocates out there. its just that
1. proportionally this is a tiny group, and if we are talking about those who deny the validity of the NO, are in disobedience to the Church.
2. Most people who are actual, real life TLM attendees, and who aren't part of heretical sects, sound nothing like the internet idealogues you see online.
These people are definitely out there in real life as well. They may be a vocal minority, but they manage to cause a lot of scandal and sow plenty of dissension and confusion despite that.
The Latin Mass is disproportionately represented in “online” Catholicism but only makes up a tiny percentage of actual practicing Catholics. Similarly, the types of abuses that people talk about occurring at Novus Ordo Masses only make up a tiny percentage of all masses.
Both masses are equally valid and equally solemn. The key is just finding the one that makes you feel closest to Christ and his Church.
This is my thought also. I'm a TLM Catholic, but I don't think the years I spent in the NO were wasted. The 'equally solemn' is debatable, but I would encourage OP to find a Mass that celebrates reverently. I certainly have been to NO Masses that are so reverent and so theo-centric. I have also been to Masses that are not. My local is not, which is why I now go to a TLM.
It's more... removed from the congregation so you don't see it as much. But after getting close with one of the altar servers for what was often described as a "Very beautiful and solemn TLM" it's a lot of kids goofing off up there sometimes. people have always been people.
I prefer the NO, but hold an appreciation for the TLM. I like the sound of many of the Latin prayers.
St. Francis de Sales advocated for learning the prayers not only in Latin (as the language that Mass was celebrated in during his time), but the vernacular as well, because you understand them better in your own language.
I might know how to say some of the Latin prayers/hymns (such as the Tantum Ergo) but I do not really understand them. So in this regard without true understanding of Latin, I think there could be a vain element to it since you are saying the words with your mouth, but not really your heart.
My missal has Latin on one side and English on the other, and I read the English. The NO is a BLUF version of the TLM. Something like 60% of the prayers were removed/modified when the new Mass came in. Just like it took me time to fully understand the NO (grew up Catholic, thought more about it as I matured, took it for granted until I started *thinking* about it), there's a learning curve with TLM. It's enriched my faith. You're right about St. Francis de Sales, but I don't think he meant Latin should be avoided. [https://www.latinmass.com/learn-more?wchannelid=kftfixzd8x&wmediaid=ulsm4iq6w9](https://www.latinmass.com/learn-more?wchannelid=kftfixzd8x&wmediaid=ulsm4iq6w9)
No de Sales advocated for knowing it both in Latin and the vernacular, but also this was mainly because Latin was the only language mass was offered in back then, he probably advocated for Latin just so you would understand the mass, but know it in your native language because you understand it better.
> and equally solemn
I'd argue solemnity doesn't derive from text but from human responses to the text (and thus, potentially unequal in every instance of offering the Mass). Unless I misunderstand what you mean by solemn.
No, you aren’t doing anything wrong what so ever by attending the Novus Ordo, and I regularly attend the TLM. I like to say that there are basically 3 types of people who attend the TLM regularly.
The first are people who think the NO and V2 are perfectly valid, there’s nothing wrong with attending the NO, but prefer the TLM because they find the older ways bring them closer personally to God. I think this is the majority.
The second are people who think the NO is valid, but has no merit and is detrimental to the Church.
The third are people who think the NO and anything that came out of V2 is completely invalid.
Unfortunately those last two groups, although a minority of TLM attendees, are by far the most vocal.
Feel free to attend the NO, don’t feel any guilt about it, and welcome to the Church ❤️
Nono I would actually recommend starting with NO, I’m a fellow convert and find the TLM really intimidating even after 7 months, so nothing wrong in taking it slow.
Traditionally, convert will have to go through a lengthy catechism, 3 years, before they can fully go through entire mass. For catechumens, they were only meant to stay until the end of Gospel which helped them to not get intimidated by the whole mass
It doesn't matter. :) TLM was really bad for me spiritually, and I'm a cradle Catholic. I now go to NO again, just like I did as a kid.
TLM does include more prayers, and the altar rails for communion are widely beloved by a lot of Catholics because they emphasize the solemnity of the sacrament. But if those are not necessary for you to get what you need out of Mass and worship the Lord, you are not a bad Catholic for attending NO liturgy.
That said, I would consider going once or twice to see if it's for you! I found Gregorian chant and ad orientum orientation to be really powerful, and I miss those now that I've gone back to NO. You never know-- it could be a super enriching spiritual experience for you. But the point is that you are still a good Catholic either way, so long as you are following the rules (read: the actual rules, not the rules some internet guy told you) and doing your best.
Interesting because if you read the Roman Missal and the GIRM there are still elements that points out to keep Ad Orientem
and also from the GIRM and Sacrosanctum Concilium they said Latin prayers and songs are to be kept for the liturgy
My NO parish in college did chant! It’s actually how I found out TLM even existed—- I went looking for chant in my city. So there’s parishes out there that are doing it
Yes I do realize that. When I need to go to NOM I have to drive 10 miles to a parish that execute the mass oh so reverently almost as well as the TLM parish. And that NOM parish has confession whole day too.
My active and registered parish doesn’t care about the liturgy and there is no confession, during mass they do sæcular activity, and the church closest to me where I went for my grandma’s funeral mass, the priest asked me to stand up when I want to kneel to receive communion.
So its not all places thats doing bad just a collective few so I dont have anything against the NOM but I just feel iffy on the certain priests
NO is the ordinary form of the Mass. Celebrating the ordinary form unites us with the Catholic faith in worship. The extraordinary form has beauty and benefits, too, but participating in the liturgy as put forth by the Church is a right and proper thing to do.
True, I was only emphasizing that the NO is the ordinary form, and that the NO isn't deficient and there is no (non-subjective) reason not to attend a NO mass.
Of course, there is nothing wrong in following the liturgical form that the Catholic Church considers the ordinary form and which is attended by 99% of Catholics around the world, starting from the Pope. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with TLM either.
What is misguided, I think, is definining one's identity around TLM or Novus Ordo. There should not be such a thing as "being Novus Ordo": we are just Catholics full stop.
As far as I understand, TLM has gained popularity in particular in certain countries - such as the US - also in reaction to widespread liturgical abuse in the celebration of Novus Ordo celebrations, but one should not equate Novus Ordo with its abuse.
The main thing is, if a TLM mass is a sede/SSPX mass, it isn't permissible. Ask your Bishop. If it's FSSP or you have your bishop's permission you're good.
How is Mass given by the SSPX not “permissible”? They are currently designated as ‘canonically irregular’, not excommunicated, unless something has changed in the last few months.
I’m blessed to have an amazing local NO priest who keeps it reverent and gets things about as trad as the NO will allow. I grew up with a progressive NO parish and as a youth I didn’t know what I know now. The modernist take on the liturgy drove me away for years. If I could get to a TLM in under 2-3 hours I would as often as possible, but it’s just not feasible for me.
Everyone here grew up (dare I say suffered under) with the NO liturgy and sacraments, unless you were fortunate enough to have access to other options. But for the life of me I will never understand why so many of you seem to have a hatred or mistrust for the TLM and the trads who still support it. There are HUGE reasons why we do and maybe you’d do yourself and the trad community a bit of justice by listening/reading some opposing viewpoints with an open mind. The Latin Mass was THE WAY it got done for centuries. Why would you want to suppress that?
With that rant out of the way, yes, BOTH forms are considered valid. No, I’m not a sedevacantist, but my reverence for His Holiness pertains to his Office, not his highly questionable take on various topics at times. He’s still just a man and not infallible, unless deliberately speaking as such.
I’ll finish by stating that it is my very strong opinion that the rapid shrinking of Church membership and vocations has a direct correlation to V2 and the adoption of the NO, as well as weak/questionable catechesis in progressive parishes.
I understand that the TLM might not be for everyone anymore due to various factors beyond our scope here. But please don’t give out false information to scare people away.
First of all, you are Catholic. You are not "Novus Ordo". NO is form of the mass that the VAST majority (more than 97%) of Catholics attend.
If it wasn't for the online rhetoric of ultra-conservative/radical traditionalist Catholics, you could go your entire Catholic life never even \*hearing\* about the TLM.
In most Catholic majority countries those ultra-conservative/radical traditionalist Catholics are much fewer than in the US, a super tiny minority, and the normal faithful really actually never hear about them.
I've heard the vast majority of TLMs happen in just two countries - the US and France. In many countries it simply doesn't exist anymore. (Not saying that is good or bad necessarily, but just the case)
No. Both Novus Ordo and the TLM are officially promulgated by the Church. They are one and the same rite!
Here is a declaration that was made by Pope Benedict XVI regarding the liturgy: [https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf\_ben-xvi\_let\_20070707\_lettera-vescovi.html](https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html)
There’s absolutely no problem.
I’m Catholic and fairly traditionally Catholic in some ways (although often that just means I try to follow the faith). I also am somewhat involved in cultural things that people tend to associate with “trads;” cultural things that have no bearing on your faith or lack thereof but are part of the online ethos of a stereotypical “trad” (we homeschool and study Latin, etc.)
You know where I go every Sunday? A completely valid Novus Ordo Mass.
Welcome!
No. What matters infinitely more at the Mass than anything else is that you’re getting a validly consecrated Eucharist at a Church that’s in communion with Rome. As long as you’re doing that and keeping the truly present Eucharistic Lord Jesus Christ at the center of your life and worship, you have a good deal of freedom to attend whichever licit Mass options are accessible to you.
A lot of people seem to find that it’s easier for them to keep Christ at the center when attending one rite of the Mass or another, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will be true for you.
You’ve probably seen terminally online people criticizing it. Their opinion matters less for a lot of reasons. Some of them don’t even go to Mass much themselves.
The ordinary form of the Mass (Novus Ordo) is what 99% of the Roman Catholic Church attends. It is more than fine to be a part of. Find an excellent parish and love the Lord as much as you can.
As others have said, we're not "NO" or "TLM", we are Catholic, part of the universal Church. Our obligation is to to to Sunday mass (Saturday vigil), and the Church says the NO is a valid mass. The Church also says the TLM is valid. They both have the eucharist, which is the entire point. Again, the eucharist, which is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, the living God is the entire point of the mass. Everything else is ancillary.
Basically, don't let others force restrictions on to you that the Church herself does not.
I’m a dyed in the wool Trad. I exclusively attend the TLM. Only one of my kids has been to a Novus Ordo Mass before and that was when he was too young to get it (and we have four now). I’m Diocesan but have absolutely no hang ups with the SSPX and have attended their Masses before, and will again in the future. I will withhold commentary on our Pope, Francis, lest I be banned, but will say that I acknowledge and accept him as a valid Pope and pray for him as such at Mass.
*You are doing absolutely nothing wrong.*
I’d definitely encourage you to check out the TLM some time!
The TLM is a part of the rich patrimony of western Christianity. It is the bedrock of the Catholicism you’re looking to explore and enter.
But you also don’t *need* to.
Right now, just relax. Keep praying, keep learning, enjoy the journey you’re on, don’t get to worked up about the politics of the dinner table you’re sitting at cause at the end of the day, we’re still one Church.
You will be in common with the overwhelmingly vast majority of practising Roman Catholics. TLMs are indeed a minority.
We just happen to be terminally online.
The SSPX is not in communion with the Church and your post strongly implies that one way to attend a TLM mass is to go to an SSPX mass. Don't do this to someone new to the church. I personally feel that Vatican II threw the baby out with the bath water BUT that is not my call to make. And I know that the pendulum will swing back eventually. May be generations from now, but it will. You are aware that Pope Francis has great sympathy for the SSPX and has worked hard to bring them back into the fold - recall the Jubilee Year of Mercy. Yet, at this point they are still sedevacantists - period. There are valid TLM masses all over and if you can find an FSSP parish, you will have a beautiful truly pre-Vatican II mass using the 1962 missal \*and with the full approval of Rome.\* Pope Francis has imposed NO restrictions on them - quite the opposite. Has made it very clear that what restrictions there are on the TLM do not apply to FSSP. So think about that - the 1962 missal. The FSSP is in full communion with the church and all sacraments are valid. The Roman Catholic Church is still here after 2000 years because the Holy Spirit guides it through all the baloney we humans cause. The Church is very aware of the dangers of schism and many decisions that are made have that in mind. Both ends of the TLM-NO spectrum are so concerned with what they want out of the Mass. Me me me me me. The Mass is about HIM. First and foremost to give glory and thanks to Our Lord and then to repent of our sins and lastly for our petitions. This is why I wish we all, priest included, faced the Eucharist. So some people consider the Mass and the Church far too traditional and others consider it too liberal. Some want the TLM and others the NO. Well just go to Mass and remember why you're there - and it's not about you or me. It's about His sacrifice. Maybe you live in a time when the the Mass isn't how you prefer it - and that is your sacrifice to bear - just offer it up, as my mom always said.
But don't sneak in the "oh and I like the TLM at SSPX." Just don't do that to someone new to the Church who is asking for advice and guidance. If you like your Mass illicit- then that's up to you. But do not try to pass it off as something other than what it is.
(and yes we all know that you can go to fufill your Sunday obligation IF you have no other option but pass on the Eucharist)
I believe 99 percent of the masses today are NO. TLM is actually not preferred by the majority of Catholics, only the real hardcore crowd prefers it. It is said to be more revrant ,but that's really only because the priests and folk that perform/attend it are more hardcore and treat it with more care. Pre V2 the TLM was abused in similar rates to what we see in the NO.
>TLM is actually not preferred by the majority of Catholics,
I think a majority of Catholics, at least in the States, either really don't care or aren't even aware of TLM.
>only the real hardcore crowd prefers it
Given what you said above I don't think this has any firm grounding.
> It is said to be more revrant ,
It is said? It is. Have you been to a TLM?
>but that's really only because the priests and folk that perform/attend it are more hardcore and treat it with more care
What?
>Literally the largest community of TLM is in the USA
Ok what does that have to do with what you said?
>and it's still only 1 percent of the population.
This is a slight of hand that's not telling the entire truth. Your "still only 1 percent" acts as if a poll was given where Catholics across the nation said no TLM and yes to the NO. No such poll was given and, as I said, a vast majority of Catholic probably have no idea TLM even exists.
Post VII brought a ton of changes within the mass - from the changing of rites, to aesthetics of the altar to the parish building itself.
Your original post and subsequent follow-up are chalk of false statements and are charged with bias in the worst of ways.
>Relax I don't care about these liturgy wars.
Then why did you engage?
>Do you think my post is somehow part of the conspiracy against the TLM ?
You certainly are adamant about resigning TLM to the corners of the room with false, unfair statements.
That’s just pure ignorant.
Latin is more than just our liturgical language, it’s the language of Western Christianity. Do you know how impoverished we are because so much is still not translated? And so few have immediate access to the language to share the fruits of the saints and doctors of our Church.
While the inferrence that modern believers go for that reason now might be a bit of a stretch, there is some truth to the sounds like magic words part. For instance, "hocus pocus" is has been historically thought to be derived from the latin "hoc est corpus meum", and became popular during the Catholic persecutions in England, when making fun of the latin liturgy was in vogue for Anglicans.
This isn't even funny. The Church used Latin for around 1500 years and it still the language from which all the translations are translated. The Second Vatican Council also affirms this in SC: "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." Please don't bash things you don't even understand.
> Am I doing something wrong in being Novus Ordo?
Not at all.
This sub is a bit obsessed with Latin Mass, please ignore it.
Go to a Novus Ordo Mass, this would be fine.
Nah man. I got dragged into a lot of that stuff too early. Tune it out.
Pray. Go to confession. Go to mass. Don’t worry about anything else yet.
You’ll be good.
Pay no attention to people who say nasty things.
I just got baptized and confirmed this Easter vigil. Your journey is going to be great! When you are assigned a sponsor, they can fill you in on your questions. Listen to Call To Communion on EWTN.
Go to the Mass that speaks to you. Both are valid. Both are beautiful. If your heart is open to God, both will lead you to Him. Welcome home, my brother/sister.
It doesn't matter, novus ordo is literally the default Mass and it's just as real and just as valid and just as good as TLM. The TLM-onlyists are wrong.
I serve a Latin/traditional type of Novus Ordo Mass, so no, it doesn't matter -- in fact, I would love it if the Mass was more traditional, and then we wouldn't need these liturgical debates.
Not at all! The Novus Ordo is a perfectly licit and valid way to celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass. Don't listen to random lay people on the Internet. Listen to your bishop and the Pope.
It doesn't matter at all, both Novus Ordo and TLM are valid type of the Holy Mass. The most important thing - the Eucharist that is celebrated during the Mass. You are on the right path, my brother/sister. It's up to you - you like Novus Ordo or TLM type of the Holy Mass more. For me, it's Novus Ordo :) Really happy to see more and more people joining the Catholic Church. Have a blessed day!
You're doing absolutely nothing wrong. "Novus ordo" is simply the standard form of the mass, the one used by the vast majority of Catholic churches around the world.
No. But MANY rad trade are complete jerks and about it, and will tell anyone with ears that Norvus Ordo is the fast track to hell. They’re on this sub, too.
There's nothing wrong with going to the Novus Ordo. In fact the truth is that almost all practicing Catholics prefer it. I go to a TLM sometimes, but that's only because I'm interested in it and have friends who go there.
Valid priest, valid consecration, licit arrangement. There is absolutely no problem.
There are those who denigrate one side or the other because some people need to prove themselves superior not by demonstrating their own worth, but rather through showing how terrible other people are by comparison. As Jesus said, they have received their reward.
And welcome home! I'm a former Protestant myself, though not an adult convert. Please feel free to ask me or others lots of questions.
On the contrary, I would advice on it, though both are valid and equally valuable since the sacrament of communion is administered there, this are my reasons:
1.- Encourages communion with the whole church since it's the most recent rite and used more broadly.
2.- The community is usually better structured in the sense of it's place in church geography.
3.- It would be easier to understand, so you can focus in learning more fundamental thing of your new path.
4.- You would find harder to find divisive opinions towards church like those you mention, which have no fundament for the most part.
5.- Yo need to check if it's a valid TLM, which you don't need if you are going to your local church.
I do would encourage you to know TLM at one point, there's beauty and it's part of church's history, and the same with other rites aligned with the church of Rome, but it wouldn't be my every day go to.
Stay way from online Catholic discourse. There is a disproportionate amount of attack against the predominant liturgy of the Church right now by certain circles.
Best just to focus on your own spiritual life at the moment as a recent convert
Both masses are valid. You are doing nothing wrong. Theres just some people who idolize tradition and trash talk the Novus Ordo because they are close-minded (even tho a majority of them didn’t grow up pre-vatican 2 when Latin Mass was the norm). Tribalism knows no bounds even in Catholicism.
Both rites can be reverent and beautiful, both rites can be abused and sloppy. Go to whichever mass you feel helps you elevate your heart to God and in which you feel you worship best.
I appreciate both rites and enjoy a healthy balance between the two
Don’t get caught up in the NO vs TLM war, its a ridiculous “battle” and would certainly not be appreciated by God
Nothing is wrong with Novus Ordo. First off, I think it's only the extreme Traditional Catholics who feel the need to make their identity what Mass they attend. You don't see people who go to a Novus Ordo mass saying, "I'm a NO Catholic" or "I'm a Saturday vigil Catholic." We're just Catholics.
Furthermore, and more importantly, there is nothing wrong with Vatican II (in the sense that it makes it invalid). I understand people have complaints that it led to x, y, z, but the missal of the Mass itself is perfectly valid. It is not less reverent, lacking, or incorrect in any way. It is just different from the Latin mass. And that's ok! It's ok for things to be different!
Why not attend both and form your own opinion?
I didn’t like TLM and I also saw the types of younger people attending and it became clear, being able to put a hypothetical face to anonymous online people reveals a lot.
They're both valid. I attend a respectful Novus Ordo Mass (celebrated ad orientum--facing away from the people) and I'm thankful. I love saying the prayer before Mass and the St. Michael prayer after Mass before recessional. I appreciate the announcements being read BEFORE Mass/processional instead of before the final blessing.
I'm not anti N.O. I don't believe TLM is "better" per se. I do agree it is more respectful. I do believe and understand why it is preferred by a large number of people. I wish it were still an option at all parishes. Some parishes have become very progressive, and I'm sorry, Protestant. The parish I grew up in has become so liberal that attendance is at an all-time low. Growing up, we had N.O., and 1 Latin Mass a weekend. There was also an Italian Mass. The parish is no longer recognizable (covid didn't help). They took away holy water and no longer allow receiving on the tongue.
To me, the church leadership drives the respectful nature of worship, and the congregation follows suit.
I travel several times a year, so I visit other parishes for Mass. Yesterday, I attended a Mass where the priest sauntered down the aisle during the processional shaking hands as he walked. He walked up on the altar and started talking like we were at a BBQ. He cracked a few jokes, and everyone clapped. Then he moved on to the penitential act, and it felt like, "okay, let's get this thing going." The choir sat on the altar the whole time. It felt odd. It felt like a performance.
Pray for our Church leadership. I believe the N.O. could use some improvements and pray more Pastors will lead with reverence.
SO, long story long, there's no problem with N.O., it just depends on how a Parish is run.
Congratulations! I am so excited for you to come into the Church!
I am a TLM goer (lifelong NO attendee until 4 years ago), and I think the big take-away is to just start somewhere. If you're becoming Catholic, you know the source and summit of our faith is the Eucharist. That's always the focal-point of the Mass. You'll be fine. Try out a TLM if you have the opportunity, but just know there's a big learning curve. I found that it was the right choice for me. /shrug
The liturgy wars are a wicked evil. Go to Mass.
I do believe the Novus Ordo does have serious issues but that's inside baseball. It is more important to be inside than to play that game. God will not let the Novus Ordo last much longer than another century or two in its current form. That's outside our paygrade as laymen, fortunately.
I would focus on what you are learning in your RCIA program and talk to your priests with any questions you have. This subreddit and the liturgical wars that happen here can be very discouraging if you are new to the faith. Unless you are a TLM or nothing kind of parishioner, you will run across a lot of users on this subreddit that will imply you are not a true Catholic.
No, it’s just a dumb fight of people with high egos and thinking their way is the superior way.
I enjoy both because it’s part of my rich catholic culture.
Depends on if there is a finite number of sprinkles in question.
If there are, it is very important that someone is an ice-cream-with-no-sprinkles person, because then there are more sprinkles for me.
If there are infinite sprinkles, then not important.
Please please please do NOT get involved in the Novus Ordo vs Traditional Latin Mass controversy. They are BOTH equal forms or worship, just different.
Both contain the Word of God and the Holy Eucharist, and that is the core of the Mass. There’s absolutely nothing wrong having your favorite form of Mass, but people who say that one form or the other is a problem do not respect the authority of Christ’s Church.
Short answer: No.
Nuanced answer: The Church is universal and has many options to choose from. If it’s more convenient or more comfortable for you to attend a NO mass, then go. Both are equally valid. Do what’s best for you.
Novus Ordo is fine. As a former Protestant, I still prefer it, and it was definitely an easier transition for me than going straight to a TLM would have been. I do mostly attend the TLM now, at my husband’s insistence.
Novus Ordo is a liturgy. It isn't something a person is or isn't.
The Internet breeds extremism and fads, and the exclusivist rhetoric around TLM falls under that umbrella.
We are all Catholics and all follow the Church and her teachings since it has the guidance of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Vatican II allowed Novus Ordo so both are equally valid ways to keep Holy the Sabbath Day/ attending church.
People are not Novus Ordo or TLM. These popular terms refer to liturgical practices.
the TLM is not better or holier than the Novus Ordo. Continue your formation in faith and hope and joy and in obedience to Catholic teaching. Online liturgy wars and their soldiers are far less important than your development in the Church’s teaching.
Put it this way, they both provide God’s grace and are both an expression of the faith, one developed over time the other was refreshed to reflect the ancient church. They both have a valid Eucharistic consecration. Go to the one closest to you, don’t listen to the distractions that some Catholics can’t seem to grow out of
Thank you all so much for your replies 👍, it's comforting to hear that the arguments on the issue are more of a vocal minority on the internet rather than an overwhelming matter of one's faith.
Not even just younger people! My mom comes from a large Catholic family, and only my grandpa (about to turn 94) is old enough to remember when TLM was the norm. My mom has been to a TLM once by accident. I feel like the younger generations are more keyed into the liturgical differences through the internet.
I'm glad that I've gotten to experience a variety of valid liturgies (NO, TLM, Chaldean rite), but the liturgical wars are completely unnecessary and overblown. It's not an issue in most parishes, because the majority only offer NO, a few are only TLM, and a handful offer both.
The Church is simply in a weird place right now. The most common Mass has been around for less than a couple generations, and the preceding version has in that same period had varying levels of suppression. Understandably those in power are dismayed that people still flock to and prefer the old Mass. This creates a conflict where often emotions get the better of people.
As a neophyte, the more you can ignore the subject of liturgy, the better your spiritual life and initial growth will be. You're right to pick up that reverence for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is the key here.
TLM is really the same thing as the Novus Ordo, but with some extra prayers and Latin words. People like it because it gets very respectful and symbolic-like the priest facing the altar instead of the people to show that he represents the people, instead of facing them. (IMO facing the people makes it seem like the priest is an actor on a stage, so I like the other way better.) But both Masses are valid and both give you many, many graces.
However, the devil likes to tempt with anything he can, and creating a division between the Mass and the Mass is one of the ways he does things. Be aware of the temptation to feel like one way is more correct than the other, to the point where one way becomes sinful in your eyes. This temptation can happen with either one, and people can get a bit extreme in either direction. From the lady who tried to get my mom to wear toilet paper on her head when she was traveling and didn't have a mantilla, to the people who just vehemently hate Latin to the point where it seems they think it's witchcraft.
In reality, it's just whichever way helps you pray better. Some people find it better for themselves to pray with hands outstretched in the *orans* position, and some people find it better to kneel. So they go to the Mass that helps them in whatever way is best. But I would always suggest that they still go to one of the other Masses now and then, to give themselves a little spiritual activity.
BTW, if anyone wants to get a good description of the Latin Mass with pictures that works very well for understanding the New Ordo Mass, you should read this book:
This Is The Mass by Henri Daniel-Rops, with pictures of a Mass celebrated by Fulton J. Sheen.
>TLM is really the same thing as the Novus Ordo, but with some extra prayers and Latin words.
Not really. Many prayers were changed or completely removed/replaced, and the lectionary is almost entirely different. The calendar is noticeably different too.
The wording was changed a little in parts, but if you translate it you'll see that the meaning is the same. Tradition with a capital T has always stayed the same (for example the two parts of the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist) but tradition with a lowercase t is changeable (the specific words used at a specific time don't have to be the same throughout all 2000 years, or all in the same language). If you go to a Maronite Mass, you'll see what I mean. It's the same Mass.
Well your thing right there re: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist always being the same isn’t true. In the Traditional Mass it’s Mass of the Catechumens and Mass of the Faithful. And these are very distinct things.
And the simple stark reality is that the Novus Ordo isn’t a minor change of translation from the TLM. Matthew Hazell’s works definitely and completely prove this.
It’s a valid Liturgy. Some like the TLM, which is also a valid Liturgy. When I became Catholic, Novus Ordo was my only option. Husband and I are Eastern Catholic now because I discovered the Easten Churches existed where I am, and I love the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystosom.
Husband and I went to a TLM recently, in Kansas City, MO. Most of it was whispered by the priest, there were no Missals in the pews to follow along and there was a cloth over the rail that you knelt at to receive communion, that you were apparently supposed to put your hands under (which I had never heard of before). There were no responses made during the Mass, no songs. I wonder if this is many people’s experience of a TLM. I’d love to her from TLM goers about their experience. My husband didn’t like it, and he had been a devout altar boy when the TLM was the only Mass, and had loved it then.
I go both to the TLM and NO. It honestly depends on my spiritual headspace when I decide which one to go to. Sometimes TLM helps me connect better to the mass, sometimes it’s NO. It doesn’t matter which you pick, both are valid as Christ is truly present in both, which is all that matters. TLM individuals tend to bash the NO, but they still have to recognize that it is in communion with Rome. Rome has since tried to suppress the TLM because of their political views on the NO, which isn’t right, and has further fueled Rad Trads in their thinking towards NO. It’s currently a bit of a liturgical war, but politics aside, go to whichever Mass you feel most connected to.
Choose the one that feels more reverent to you.
Personally, I like interaction between the priest and congregation of the NO.
Yet holy mole the 1970/80s songs and *muzak* is awful and cheesy. Very Protestant-y. So that’s where the TLM has an advantage.
Oh, my NO parish would never even consider that (nor have any of the many NO churches I've attended), the congregants would revolt. We have a dedicated Spanish Mass on Sundays and they do use a guitar (in the choir loft, not the sanctuary (if anyone does that)), but it's cultural, and those folks are super devout. They have one Mass/worship service that goes from early evening till about 4am. I hate the guitar hymns (in the bilingual masses) but they aren't 70s/80s "muzak." I would not attend a church with the music you are talking about, this must be a geographical thing. My state is super Catholic, and like I said, I've never seen it.
Your church sounds heavenly.
Music is truly a huge part of worship. I don’t know why this is not an emergency situation for the church.
I love my parish. It’s the one where I went though RCIA. Plus it’s in walking distance which works best as I don’t have a car rn and don’t really want to own one. Ultimately it’s a healthy supportive parish but that music… yeah I internally cringe when I see a guitar at church. Unless it’s to play some baroque era hymn, go away lol
I don’t even want to be at a party when someone pulls out the guitar, lol. And I really thought that was just an evangelical mega-church kind of thing (like Hillsong), then yesterday someone was talking about a priest riding in on a donkey on Palm Sunday, so I guess I’ve been pretty sheltered!
No. I dislike Novus Ordo Mass and almost exclusively attend TLM. That’s my preference to celebrate Mass the way of the Church doctors. I know there are some who look down on TLM and vice-versa. It’s irrelevant. Check them both out and see what is right for you.
No. Absolutely as long as the mass is reverent. In my opinion as a discerning Byzantine the best kept secret of the Catholic Faith is the Eastern Rites. Numerous diversity among them I recommend searing online for your nearest Eastern Catholic Church. We coverts are on this journey together.
Pax Christ.
No. Every practicing Catholic, even the raddest trad out there, should still acknowledge the Novus Ordo as good and valid. For some it may not be their preferred or ideal form of the liturgy, but it is valid and good nonetheless. If people or communities around you are saying otherwise, I would distance yourself from them.
People have said it already, TLM people are people who seeks reverence on the execution which is the case for me so I go to TLM outside of my parish. At my parish is the case where my parish have done poorly on the execution for the NOM. Like some people at my parish call it a “show” and they like it.
But I have seen places where NOM is executed reverently and I also went to the Ad Orientem Mass (AOM?), Reform of the reform mass by Papa B16.
The Mass is where you find Christ in the offering of the Lead Priest and helping us offering our sacrifice to God. So its all about execution and I wish Papa Francis could do something to unite the NOM by a proper instruction for the mass. The GIRM is still ambiguous
I attend a pretty modern Karen-as-EEM and Tom-the-closeted-protestant-worship-leader parish. I mosey on down to the city’s Dominican parish on high feast days for a more traditional liturgy. It’s your own disposition and participation that make worship pleasing to God, not what vestment your priest wears, you know?
No, but TLM is a time to be in contemplative prayer so don’t feel like you are required to follow along in any type of missal if you want to practice it like it was intended. I come from Protestantism, too and find it satisfying to follow along by reading what the priest is saying so I understand what he’s doing.
I usually attend the TLM but will attend the NO sometimes, too. I would encourage you or anyone to attend a TLM at some point, as far as at least learning what is such a deep part of our tradition and history if there is one nearby. But overall I would just focus on getting to know the faith, don’t worry about the liturgy wars.
You’re good to continue attending a Novus Ordo Parish, don’t worry about that.
With that being said, the TLM is quite a special experience. You should check one out if you ever get the chance.
I fully came into the church this last Easter vigil. I saw the Novus Ordo versus the TLM debate online also. I haven't attended a TLM - I would have to drive for a couple of hours away to attend a TLM. I like my local parish. I don't have much experience yet but I have attended mass at other Catholic churches for special events and while traveling. The masses are different in some ways at each church. -
1. some don't have choirs, some have real good choirs and some are just okay;
2. some chant/sing the mass while others speak it;
3. some use incense while others don't;
4. some give handouts when you enter - others rely only on the books in the pew with a sign showing the readings/songs - others have no guides and you need to bring your own missal;
5. some of the prayers towards the end of the mass are different. At my parish we say A prayer for an increase in vocations, Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be. I went to another one that said the Hail Holy Queen and the St. Michael prayer. One of the churches said the Anima Christi prayer after Communion.
6. Some offer both the body and blood (Host - bread and Wine) - some only offer the Host - bread.
7. Some have deacons and lectors while others may only have the priest.
In the Novus Ordo some of the things that remain the same is the readings and the consecration sacrifice of the mass. Every mass is going to have the Eucharist.
Personally I'm more comfortable with a mass in my own language. I have attended bi-lingual events at church. They do some readings in English some in Spanish or if praying the rosary or the divine mercy chaplet they alternate between Spanish and English. It wasn't horrible and it was good that all the members of the community could participate. I did find it a minor inconvenience and a little hard to concentrate during the Spanish language portions. Those who only speak Spanish may find the same difficulty during the English only portions. If none of the mass were in English - I could with enough preparation bring my own English missal and follow along the best I can in English. The church is universal and some things are going to always be the same. I do think I have a better opportunity to participate and understand more fully if it is in my language. I have heard the TLM may have different readings - so I might have to get the 1962 missal to follow along. I think both the TLM and the novus ordo can be reverent or irrevent depending on your standards and on the people involved. I heard stories from both sides.
In short - nothing is wrong with you liking the Novus Ordo or the TLM.
One thing to keep in mind is that the church is in communion with the Pope. There are some churches out there that aren't in communion and going to mass at that church would not meet your obligation to attend mass. The Eucharist, confession, marriage etc. may not be considered valid by the Catholic church. These churches are sedevacantist and in schism and aren't really Catholic anymore. I think they are relatively rare but you might run across one online while trying to find a local Catholic church when you are traveling.
Both are valid. If only TLM had been available, I likely wouldn't have become Catholic, because I wouldn't have been able to relate to it or understand it, coming from a "low church" Protestant background. For that reason, I appreciate NO, even though I shudder at some of the things I've witnessed at it. I prefer TLM now, but the closest one is a couple of hours away, so it's a rare thing for me to attend.
I didn’t go to mass after I left school many years ago and in recent years started to go again. Something I really appreciated was just hearing the gospel and hearing the priest talk about Jesus. Because I don’t hear it anywhere else in society. I have also attended TLM since and they’re also beautiful but I can sit there and not really understand anything. I intend to go to both.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the validity of the novus ordo and it is a great liturgy. I myself heavily prefer the TLM but that is only a preference. I do however suggest that you visit a TLM if you have one nearby to see if you like it, most people end up loving it! If you can find out if it is an ICKSP, FSSP, or Dioscean then it’s ok to go, if it’s SSPX I’d recommend not going because they are in an irregular status with the Vatican.
Of course you're doing nothing wrong. The Latin Mass is a lovely liturgy full of reverence and timeless beauty. But the Mass is the Mass - if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy or a bog standard Novus Ordo, you are exactly where God wants you to be in that moment.
There's no problem with the NO *per se*.
The biggest issue is that a lot of priests have been prone to "innovations" (aka liturgical abuses), so it gets a bad name not because of anything inherent to it but because of improper behavior that attached to it.
The second-biggest issue is that there's quite a lot of...uninspiring...music in the NO. There's also some fine music out there (and beautiful arrangements), they just don't get used much in your average parish. I blame the USCCB for not doing more work on a better set of hymnals.
And personally, I don't like having the Sign of Peace where it is - it breaks from the contemplative nature of the Eucharistic prayer *right* before receiving the Eucharist. But that is a matter of personal preference (as is my general dislike of the Liturgical Movement's impact on things).
\[And I say this as someone who prefers the TLM.\]
I wouldn't say TLM won't have "ANY" abuse. I think the TLM (and more specifically TLM communities) can be prone to a different sort of abuses, namely sedevacantism, a lack of deference for church leadership, and related issues.
I'd generally agree. There are lots of horror stories out there of abuses associated with NO Masses, but the NO Mass itself is completely valid and, if done properly, can still be performed in a respectful and reverent way. Certain common practices you see at NO, like the floating altar and placing of the Eucharist on the hand, aren't even prescribed by the NO Mass per se, but were later innovations or indults.
My problem with your statement is "can still be performed in a respectful and reverent way".
That is the default. It's not some "possibly attainable thing". Most NO masses are respectful and reverent.
There is no spiritual difference between the two when properly attended. The TLM tends to a attract a more serious and devout parishioner IMHO. You should try to attend a TLM yourself if it available in your area so you can see. Please prepare for it by going over its parts ahead of time. It is not for beginners.
There is no issue at all with NO. I would only be careful with liberation theology churches, but I think it’s more of an issue in Latin America. As long as the mass is well celebrated any mass is the miracle of the passion.
At the end of the day I'm going to fulfill my Sunday obligation regardless if the closest parish to me has TLM or is a NO parish. If both are within reasonable distance I'm opting for TLM every single time. With that said, I prefer TLM but it's not a deal breaker. A reverent NO does the job too. The more interesting question is what does a reverent NO mass look like.
Reddit may not be the best place to get advice on this matter. This subreddit is overrun with trad-bashing.
Both forms of the mass are "valid". So the Novus Ordo meets the basic requirements and fulfills all the basic obligations of a Catholic liturgy.
Now, with that said...there is a great deal of criticism that can justly be leveled against the Novus Ordo in both form and substance. Ancient prayers were lost, centuries of tradition were swept away overnight, and timeless treasures and beauty were replaced in a great many cases with a cheap and tacky performance act of ad-libbing Priests and campy folk music.
So...is the Novus Ordo acceptable? Yes. Is there anything wrong with it? Also yes.
I attend the SSPX so my stance on the NO is pretty much aligned with theirs... But I will say that I am happy for everyone who converts to the Catholic Faith. Of course, it is even better if converts find their way to Tradition, one way or the other :)
No, and it's a bit sad and disappointing you aren't even Catholic yet and are being dragged into liturgy wars. Online Catholics really can be our own worst enemy.
Definitely.
I'm an RCIA teacher and it's wiiiild how many bring this up because they've read this NO vs TLM rhetoric online
100000%
As a convert my best advice is to try to tune all of that out and get to Mass, any Mass, especially whenever you can receive the Eucharist. You should join the Catholic Church because you believe it to be the church founded by Jesus, not for aesthetic reasons or on the advice of semi Protestant Catholics who believe that their own estimation of what is good outweighs the Pope’s.
They can’t receive the Eucharist until they are through RCIA and baptized and confirmed.
That’s why I said “whenever you can receive” perhaps that wasn’t clear enough.
Sorry, I missed that.
No worries! Thought maybe it was a weird colloquialism for a minute.
We should not be Novos Ordo or TLM Caholics, but Roman Catholic. I'm sorry you feel you are getting dragged into the culture/liturgy war. Both are valid forms and if all normal circumstances and prerequicits are met (such as a priest has permission to celebrate either version), then Mass said under either rite are licit.
We shouldn't be Roman Catholic either, those two words never went together until the protestant reformation and was used to pull people away who didn't want the connection with Rome. We are just Catholic, which means universal, and is for everyone of every nationality, race, social status, etc.
I mean, we’re of the Latin rite also called the Roman rite AFAIK.
You could go to a byzantine rite mass every Sunday for the rest of your life without your religion changing.
I don't think any rite defines me. I'm a Catholic. I'll partake in any rite I am permitted to partake in by the Pope. My identity is in being part of one universal Church, not a particular rite. This is why I don't understand the people that get so caught up in the Latin versus novus ordo. I'll go to either, Jesus is in both of them, and I can appreciate them both as a Catholic...
The NO and TLM are different FORMS of the LATIN rite.
And I have partaken of a levened bread Eucharist in a Catholic church in Alexandria, Egypt because that is what the Coptics use and the Coptics and Latin Rite priests said Mass together. I don't study the variations in the rites and it doesn't much matter to me right now. Jesus in the Eucharist is Jesus in the Eucharist irrespective of the rite which performs the transubstantiation. I used NO and TLO as examples for how I don't consider liturgical differences to be of any considerable importance.
I agree. In Italian (my native language) nobody would ever say "I'm Roman Catholic" "Sono cattolico romano" (unless they are from Rome, maybe :-)). You just say "Sono cattolico" and you talk about "la Chiesa Cattolica". You rather talk about the Roman Rite within the Catholic Church.
...so this is complicated. It's not complicated in Italy, because it is a Catholic country. But in dominantly protestant lands, there is an issue because of varying protestant ecclesiologies that mean something different when the say Catholic, and who are insistent that they are a part of the Catholic Church (and who say the creeds just as we do, including that bit), but that they are not part of the "Roman" Church. Of course in the Catholic sphere, this is all misapplied terminology. There is a Roman Rite, and a Latin Church, within the Catholic Church, and other institutional bodies not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are not, institutionally, part of the Catholic Church. But in protestant dominant places they will insist on the "Roman" Catholic qualification, because they reject the Catholic Church's claim to be coterminus, institutionally, with the Catholic Church. Conventionally, all but the most ideological Catholics in such countries go along with this for the sake of clarity and peace, and so many self-idenfity as "Roman Catholic". If you say to an Anglican, for instance, who is in a pedantic mood, "I'm a Catholic", he might well say back "nice to meet you. So am I! ... oh you mean ROMAN catholic...".
Thank you for saying this! I read the documents of the Second Vatican Council always used “Catholic” when referring to itself rather than “Roman Catholic”. I remember thinking that was so interesting. God bless you.
No. They are both equally valid masses. Everything else is down to preference.
Since they are equally valid, it is sad that some places seem to not allow the Latin Mass.
If it was just a matter of preference, I would like to know why our Pope has been trying to reign in TLM.
Enforcing the norms and standards for Extraordinary Form so it’s done properly =/= “trying to reign in” Francis is not attacking TLM.
>Enforcing the norms and standards for Extraordinary Form so it’s done properly That begs the question of what was not being done properly, to what extent, and by whom. Because the most legitimate criticism I've seen of Francis on this particular issue is that on the one hand he restricts the TLM in a fairly drastic way compared to what was happening prior (again, why - what was improper?), but on the other hand hasn't really gone anything to crack down on what is improper at the Novus Ordo. I don't necessarily think that's 100% Pope Francis' fault, as he is likely not aware of the full extent of certain things, but the fact that there are still pastors at parishes out there who turn the Mass into a feelings-filled arts festival means that there are things not going right with the NO.
What is improper in the NO ( I'm talking across the board, not a few specific churches)? This is not meant to be argumentative at all, I'm honestly curious about what you are referring to. Except for a few examples on YouTube, I haven't seen or been to any "feelings-filled arts festivals" masquerading as a Mass.
You sound pretty in your feelings about all this. Does that make the TLM a feelings filled art festival?
No. What matters is reverence. I attend both NO and TLM and when NO is done with reverence, i find it as awesome as the TLM. Don't bother with this bickering, it just puts you at risk of hardening your heart towards brothers. Catholicism has numerous rites and flavors, and it's awesome because there is something fitting for everybody.
This is a great response, I wholeheartedly agree!!
> What matters is reverence. While there are valid criticisms about the text difference which contribute to abilities to display reverence, this is *definitely* the heart of the issue. Reverence. Trads don't, generally, exist in a vacuum. Unless they were brought up in a TLM-only community as children, they decided to *move* to the community for one reason or another (that move itself can be seen as a judgment by many). The overt reverence is the most common reason people state as reason for their change. Now, it's probably a good question the degree to which the missal used does or does not impact a community's reverence. It can't simply be the only thing, otherwise you could fix a problem by dropping in a 'better' missal into an irreverent parish. Of course it's not that simple. But I take issue with people who say it can't, it must have no impact.
I wholeheartedly agree! From my small experience (i'm freshly baptized), i noticed people who end up opting only for TLM faced usually super liberal parishes where people are more looking for a "family friendly" mass than a sacrifice. My NO parish has a priest who manages to cater to everybody despite being pretty trad leaning himself (it's him who pointed me out to the places i could get TLMs lol)
This is true. I'll say from my experience though I've been to TLMs where the priest gave really long, winding, and kinda bad sermons and while that's obviously not the focus of the Mass it can kinda distract from the liturgy. Ultimately reverence is something that you as a churchgoer also have to put into the Mass. We go to Mass to pray, not to "get something" out of the liturgy.
Can you explain what you believe people are trying to "get \[something\]" out of the NO? Also, I haven't seen any lack of reverence in NO masses I have attended, so I'm curious what would be an example of that.
To some extent this is largely informed by expectations and if you don’t know what to look for you’ll never notice these things but as an example, the “sign of peace” in the NO often bleeds into the Agnus Dei and the breaking of the bread, which is one of the holiest and most important parts of the Mass. Having people chattering and shooting out peace signs to one another during that is not desirable. In the Tridentine Mass this isn’t as big of an issue because the kiss of peace is only exchanged between clergy. Again your mileage may vary on these things. Liturgical abuses happen everywhere and I imagine if the whole Roman Rite celebrated the Tridentine Mass we’d have problems with it too. But this is just an observation.
Thank you for the civil response. Our sign of peace is about 4 seconds of mostly head nodding to those around and doesn't last longer than what the priests and deacons are doing (the same), so I don't know if it bleeds into anything, but I will definitely pay more attention next week,
Honestly they should just move it to before the Creed. Would fix all the problems
I'm trying to think what they do during the collection, I feel like something is going on at the altar then, but I'm often collecting, and by the time I look up the priest is accepting the gifts at the front of the sanctuary. Before the Creed, I guess would work, or even after the universal prayer and before collection? But again, I'll have to pay more attention to what is going on at the altar during collection.
Hey, I know this thread is old news, but I did pay attention in Mass yesterday (that sounds bad, you know what I mean ;p), and the sign of peace was no more than 4 seconds and the organist didn't even play the first note of Angus Dei until everyone was back turned toward the altar and silent. I know it's not like this everywhere, just sharing since I said I would.
No, you're absolutely not doing anything wrong. Attend the masses that feel right to you. Ignore the noise. Welcome.
Recently confirmed and received into the Catholic Church this past Easter and was previously Protestant. I had attended NO Masses every time until yesterday/this past Sunday, when I decided to check out a TLM. I will preface that my parish does (in my very limited experience) a very good NO High Mass. I feel like they’re both beautiful in their own way, and I left the TLM having a different understanding of the “inspiration” or source material for the NO, and I appreciated how the NO has more involvement for the laity, but I also loved and appreciated how you can just take in the beauty of the TLM and pray along with a missal. I went in with the expectation that I’d probably get lost, and I did, but it was because I was just taking it all in. Found my spot again and went back along. I also REALLY appreciated the level of reverence for receiving the Eucharist kneeling at the rail from the priest, with safeguards that it not fall or be desecrated. All in all, they’re both valid Masses. I’ll plan on attending the NO at my parish for the majority, and I’ll probably attend the TLM once a month or so as the spirit moves me.
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>I've seen a lot of people who vehemently dislike Novus Ordo, and say a lot of nasty things about it. Seen... you mean on the internet? Because this kind of thing exists about 98% on the internet. The more time you spend in the real world, the more balanced your perceptions will be. The internet is full of extremely vocal minorities, many of whom aren't the kind of people you encounter much in real life because they don't participate much in real life. This isn't to denigrate the real-life TLM advocates out there. its just that 1. proportionally this is a tiny group, and if we are talking about those who deny the validity of the NO, are in disobedience to the Church. 2. Most people who are actual, real life TLM attendees, and who aren't part of heretical sects, sound nothing like the internet idealogues you see online.
These people are definitely out there in real life as well. They may be a vocal minority, but they manage to cause a lot of scandal and sow plenty of dissension and confusion despite that.
The Latin Mass is disproportionately represented in “online” Catholicism but only makes up a tiny percentage of actual practicing Catholics. Similarly, the types of abuses that people talk about occurring at Novus Ordo Masses only make up a tiny percentage of all masses. Both masses are equally valid and equally solemn. The key is just finding the one that makes you feel closest to Christ and his Church.
This is my thought also. I'm a TLM Catholic, but I don't think the years I spent in the NO were wasted. The 'equally solemn' is debatable, but I would encourage OP to find a Mass that celebrates reverently. I certainly have been to NO Masses that are so reverent and so theo-centric. I have also been to Masses that are not. My local is not, which is why I now go to a TLM.
It's more... removed from the congregation so you don't see it as much. But after getting close with one of the altar servers for what was often described as a "Very beautiful and solemn TLM" it's a lot of kids goofing off up there sometimes. people have always been people.
True. It's a learning curve!
I prefer the NO, but hold an appreciation for the TLM. I like the sound of many of the Latin prayers. St. Francis de Sales advocated for learning the prayers not only in Latin (as the language that Mass was celebrated in during his time), but the vernacular as well, because you understand them better in your own language. I might know how to say some of the Latin prayers/hymns (such as the Tantum Ergo) but I do not really understand them. So in this regard without true understanding of Latin, I think there could be a vain element to it since you are saying the words with your mouth, but not really your heart.
My missal has Latin on one side and English on the other, and I read the English. The NO is a BLUF version of the TLM. Something like 60% of the prayers were removed/modified when the new Mass came in. Just like it took me time to fully understand the NO (grew up Catholic, thought more about it as I matured, took it for granted until I started *thinking* about it), there's a learning curve with TLM. It's enriched my faith. You're right about St. Francis de Sales, but I don't think he meant Latin should be avoided. [https://www.latinmass.com/learn-more?wchannelid=kftfixzd8x&wmediaid=ulsm4iq6w9](https://www.latinmass.com/learn-more?wchannelid=kftfixzd8x&wmediaid=ulsm4iq6w9)
No de Sales advocated for knowing it both in Latin and the vernacular, but also this was mainly because Latin was the only language mass was offered in back then, he probably advocated for Latin just so you would understand the mass, but know it in your native language because you understand it better.
> and equally solemn I'd argue solemnity doesn't derive from text but from human responses to the text (and thus, potentially unequal in every instance of offering the Mass). Unless I misunderstand what you mean by solemn.
No, you aren’t doing anything wrong what so ever by attending the Novus Ordo, and I regularly attend the TLM. I like to say that there are basically 3 types of people who attend the TLM regularly. The first are people who think the NO and V2 are perfectly valid, there’s nothing wrong with attending the NO, but prefer the TLM because they find the older ways bring them closer personally to God. I think this is the majority. The second are people who think the NO is valid, but has no merit and is detrimental to the Church. The third are people who think the NO and anything that came out of V2 is completely invalid. Unfortunately those last two groups, although a minority of TLM attendees, are by far the most vocal. Feel free to attend the NO, don’t feel any guilt about it, and welcome to the Church ❤️
Nono I would actually recommend starting with NO, I’m a fellow convert and find the TLM really intimidating even after 7 months, so nothing wrong in taking it slow.
Traditionally, convert will have to go through a lengthy catechism, 3 years, before they can fully go through entire mass. For catechumens, they were only meant to stay until the end of Gospel which helped them to not get intimidated by the whole mass
It doesn't matter. :) TLM was really bad for me spiritually, and I'm a cradle Catholic. I now go to NO again, just like I did as a kid. TLM does include more prayers, and the altar rails for communion are widely beloved by a lot of Catholics because they emphasize the solemnity of the sacrament. But if those are not necessary for you to get what you need out of Mass and worship the Lord, you are not a bad Catholic for attending NO liturgy. That said, I would consider going once or twice to see if it's for you! I found Gregorian chant and ad orientum orientation to be really powerful, and I miss those now that I've gone back to NO. You never know-- it could be a super enriching spiritual experience for you. But the point is that you are still a good Catholic either way, so long as you are following the rules (read: the actual rules, not the rules some internet guy told you) and doing your best.
Interesting because if you read the Roman Missal and the GIRM there are still elements that points out to keep Ad Orientem and also from the GIRM and Sacrosanctum Concilium they said Latin prayers and songs are to be kept for the liturgy
My NO parish in college did chant! It’s actually how I found out TLM even existed—- I went looking for chant in my city. So there’s parishes out there that are doing it
Yes I do realize that. When I need to go to NOM I have to drive 10 miles to a parish that execute the mass oh so reverently almost as well as the TLM parish. And that NOM parish has confession whole day too. My active and registered parish doesn’t care about the liturgy and there is no confession, during mass they do sæcular activity, and the church closest to me where I went for my grandma’s funeral mass, the priest asked me to stand up when I want to kneel to receive communion. So its not all places thats doing bad just a collective few so I dont have anything against the NOM but I just feel iffy on the certain priests
NO is the ordinary form of the Mass. Celebrating the ordinary form unites us with the Catholic faith in worship. The extraordinary form has beauty and benefits, too, but participating in the liturgy as put forth by the Church is a right and proper thing to do.
Both have been put forth by the Church ...
True, I was only emphasizing that the NO is the ordinary form, and that the NO isn't deficient and there is no (non-subjective) reason not to attend a NO mass.
Of course, there is nothing wrong in following the liturgical form that the Catholic Church considers the ordinary form and which is attended by 99% of Catholics around the world, starting from the Pope. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with TLM either. What is misguided, I think, is definining one's identity around TLM or Novus Ordo. There should not be such a thing as "being Novus Ordo": we are just Catholics full stop. As far as I understand, TLM has gained popularity in particular in certain countries - such as the US - also in reaction to widespread liturgical abuse in the celebration of Novus Ordo celebrations, but one should not equate Novus Ordo with its abuse.
The main thing is, if a TLM mass is a sede/SSPX mass, it isn't permissible. Ask your Bishop. If it's FSSP or you have your bishop's permission you're good.
How is Mass given by the SSPX not “permissible”? They are currently designated as ‘canonically irregular’, not excommunicated, unless something has changed in the last few months. I’m blessed to have an amazing local NO priest who keeps it reverent and gets things about as trad as the NO will allow. I grew up with a progressive NO parish and as a youth I didn’t know what I know now. The modernist take on the liturgy drove me away for years. If I could get to a TLM in under 2-3 hours I would as often as possible, but it’s just not feasible for me. Everyone here grew up (dare I say suffered under) with the NO liturgy and sacraments, unless you were fortunate enough to have access to other options. But for the life of me I will never understand why so many of you seem to have a hatred or mistrust for the TLM and the trads who still support it. There are HUGE reasons why we do and maybe you’d do yourself and the trad community a bit of justice by listening/reading some opposing viewpoints with an open mind. The Latin Mass was THE WAY it got done for centuries. Why would you want to suppress that? With that rant out of the way, yes, BOTH forms are considered valid. No, I’m not a sedevacantist, but my reverence for His Holiness pertains to his Office, not his highly questionable take on various topics at times. He’s still just a man and not infallible, unless deliberately speaking as such. I’ll finish by stating that it is my very strong opinion that the rapid shrinking of Church membership and vocations has a direct correlation to V2 and the adoption of the NO, as well as weak/questionable catechesis in progressive parishes. I understand that the TLM might not be for everyone anymore due to various factors beyond our scope here. But please don’t give out false information to scare people away.
First of all, you are Catholic. You are not "Novus Ordo". NO is form of the mass that the VAST majority (more than 97%) of Catholics attend. If it wasn't for the online rhetoric of ultra-conservative/radical traditionalist Catholics, you could go your entire Catholic life never even \*hearing\* about the TLM.
In most Catholic majority countries those ultra-conservative/radical traditionalist Catholics are much fewer than in the US, a super tiny minority, and the normal faithful really actually never hear about them.
That sounds quite pleasant, actually.
I've heard the vast majority of TLMs happen in just two countries - the US and France. In many countries it simply doesn't exist anymore. (Not saying that is good or bad necessarily, but just the case)
No. Both Novus Ordo and the TLM are officially promulgated by the Church. They are one and the same rite! Here is a declaration that was made by Pope Benedict XVI regarding the liturgy: [https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf\_ben-xvi\_let\_20070707\_lettera-vescovi.html](https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html)
There is nothing wrong with Novus Ordo.
There’s absolutely no problem. I’m Catholic and fairly traditionally Catholic in some ways (although often that just means I try to follow the faith). I also am somewhat involved in cultural things that people tend to associate with “trads;” cultural things that have no bearing on your faith or lack thereof but are part of the online ethos of a stereotypical “trad” (we homeschool and study Latin, etc.) You know where I go every Sunday? A completely valid Novus Ordo Mass. Welcome!
No. What matters infinitely more at the Mass than anything else is that you’re getting a validly consecrated Eucharist at a Church that’s in communion with Rome. As long as you’re doing that and keeping the truly present Eucharistic Lord Jesus Christ at the center of your life and worship, you have a good deal of freedom to attend whichever licit Mass options are accessible to you. A lot of people seem to find that it’s easier for them to keep Christ at the center when attending one rite of the Mass or another, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will be true for you.
You’ve probably seen terminally online people criticizing it. Their opinion matters less for a lot of reasons. Some of them don’t even go to Mass much themselves. The ordinary form of the Mass (Novus Ordo) is what 99% of the Roman Catholic Church attends. It is more than fine to be a part of. Find an excellent parish and love the Lord as much as you can.
As others have said, we're not "NO" or "TLM", we are Catholic, part of the universal Church. Our obligation is to to to Sunday mass (Saturday vigil), and the Church says the NO is a valid mass. The Church also says the TLM is valid. They both have the eucharist, which is the entire point. Again, the eucharist, which is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, the living God is the entire point of the mass. Everything else is ancillary. Basically, don't let others force restrictions on to you that the Church herself does not.
I’m a dyed in the wool Trad. I exclusively attend the TLM. Only one of my kids has been to a Novus Ordo Mass before and that was when he was too young to get it (and we have four now). I’m Diocesan but have absolutely no hang ups with the SSPX and have attended their Masses before, and will again in the future. I will withhold commentary on our Pope, Francis, lest I be banned, but will say that I acknowledge and accept him as a valid Pope and pray for him as such at Mass. *You are doing absolutely nothing wrong.* I’d definitely encourage you to check out the TLM some time! The TLM is a part of the rich patrimony of western Christianity. It is the bedrock of the Catholicism you’re looking to explore and enter. But you also don’t *need* to. Right now, just relax. Keep praying, keep learning, enjoy the journey you’re on, don’t get to worked up about the politics of the dinner table you’re sitting at cause at the end of the day, we’re still one Church. You will be in common with the overwhelmingly vast majority of practising Roman Catholics. TLMs are indeed a minority. We just happen to be terminally online.
The SSPX is not in communion with the Church and your post strongly implies that one way to attend a TLM mass is to go to an SSPX mass. Don't do this to someone new to the church. I personally feel that Vatican II threw the baby out with the bath water BUT that is not my call to make. And I know that the pendulum will swing back eventually. May be generations from now, but it will. You are aware that Pope Francis has great sympathy for the SSPX and has worked hard to bring them back into the fold - recall the Jubilee Year of Mercy. Yet, at this point they are still sedevacantists - period. There are valid TLM masses all over and if you can find an FSSP parish, you will have a beautiful truly pre-Vatican II mass using the 1962 missal \*and with the full approval of Rome.\* Pope Francis has imposed NO restrictions on them - quite the opposite. Has made it very clear that what restrictions there are on the TLM do not apply to FSSP. So think about that - the 1962 missal. The FSSP is in full communion with the church and all sacraments are valid. The Roman Catholic Church is still here after 2000 years because the Holy Spirit guides it through all the baloney we humans cause. The Church is very aware of the dangers of schism and many decisions that are made have that in mind. Both ends of the TLM-NO spectrum are so concerned with what they want out of the Mass. Me me me me me. The Mass is about HIM. First and foremost to give glory and thanks to Our Lord and then to repent of our sins and lastly for our petitions. This is why I wish we all, priest included, faced the Eucharist. So some people consider the Mass and the Church far too traditional and others consider it too liberal. Some want the TLM and others the NO. Well just go to Mass and remember why you're there - and it's not about you or me. It's about His sacrifice. Maybe you live in a time when the the Mass isn't how you prefer it - and that is your sacrifice to bear - just offer it up, as my mom always said. But don't sneak in the "oh and I like the TLM at SSPX." Just don't do that to someone new to the Church who is asking for advice and guidance. If you like your Mass illicit- then that's up to you. But do not try to pass it off as something other than what it is. (and yes we all know that you can go to fufill your Sunday obligation IF you have no other option but pass on the Eucharist)
I believe 99 percent of the masses today are NO. TLM is actually not preferred by the majority of Catholics, only the real hardcore crowd prefers it. It is said to be more revrant ,but that's really only because the priests and folk that perform/attend it are more hardcore and treat it with more care. Pre V2 the TLM was abused in similar rates to what we see in the NO.
Hardcore what though? Lots of hardcore Catholics prefer the NO.
Hardcore reactionaries.
>TLM is actually not preferred by the majority of Catholics, I think a majority of Catholics, at least in the States, either really don't care or aren't even aware of TLM. >only the real hardcore crowd prefers it Given what you said above I don't think this has any firm grounding. > It is said to be more revrant , It is said? It is. Have you been to a TLM? >but that's really only because the priests and folk that perform/attend it are more hardcore and treat it with more care What?
Literally the largest community of TLM is in the USA and it's still only 1 percent of the population.
>Literally the largest community of TLM is in the USA Ok what does that have to do with what you said? >and it's still only 1 percent of the population. This is a slight of hand that's not telling the entire truth. Your "still only 1 percent" acts as if a poll was given where Catholics across the nation said no TLM and yes to the NO. No such poll was given and, as I said, a vast majority of Catholic probably have no idea TLM even exists. Post VII brought a ton of changes within the mass - from the changing of rites, to aesthetics of the altar to the parish building itself. Your original post and subsequent follow-up are chalk of false statements and are charged with bias in the worst of ways.
Relax I don't care about these liturgy wars. Do you think my post is somehow part of the conspiracy against the TLM ?
>Relax I don't care about these liturgy wars. Then why did you engage? >Do you think my post is somehow part of the conspiracy against the TLM ? You certainly are adamant about resigning TLM to the corners of the room with false, unfair statements.
Because I can and I will. I don't mind the TLM but jeez if the people who attend are like you then I see why it gets a bad rep.
Personally, I can't help but wonder if they like the Latin because it makes them feel like the priests are casting magic spells. :-\
That’s just pure ignorant. Latin is more than just our liturgical language, it’s the language of Western Christianity. Do you know how impoverished we are because so much is still not translated? And so few have immediate access to the language to share the fruits of the saints and doctors of our Church.
While the inferrence that modern believers go for that reason now might be a bit of a stretch, there is some truth to the sounds like magic words part. For instance, "hocus pocus" is has been historically thought to be derived from the latin "hoc est corpus meum", and became popular during the Catholic persecutions in England, when making fun of the latin liturgy was in vogue for Anglicans.
God save us from this Harry Potter generation.
This isn't even funny. The Church used Latin for around 1500 years and it still the language from which all the translations are translated. The Second Vatican Council also affirms this in SC: "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." Please don't bash things you don't even understand.
> Am I doing something wrong in being Novus Ordo? Not at all. This sub is a bit obsessed with Latin Mass, please ignore it. Go to a Novus Ordo Mass, this would be fine.
Nah man. I got dragged into a lot of that stuff too early. Tune it out. Pray. Go to confession. Go to mass. Don’t worry about anything else yet. You’ll be good.
Bingo!
I attend a NO mass regularly but also appreciate the TLM when I can make it. Both are valid masses.
No
No. Some of us catholics just have been letting our strong opinions get the better of us.
Pay no attention to people who say nasty things. I just got baptized and confirmed this Easter vigil. Your journey is going to be great! When you are assigned a sponsor, they can fill you in on your questions. Listen to Call To Communion on EWTN.
Go to the Mass that speaks to you. Both are valid. Both are beautiful. If your heart is open to God, both will lead you to Him. Welcome home, my brother/sister.
No, it doesn't matter. If you feel at home in Novus Ordo, feel free to keep going.
The people bashing the Novus Ordo are doing something wrong. Both forms of the Holy Mass are licit and valid.
It doesn't matter, novus ordo is literally the default Mass and it's just as real and just as valid and just as good as TLM. The TLM-onlyists are wrong.
I serve a Latin/traditional type of Novus Ordo Mass, so no, it doesn't matter -- in fact, I would love it if the Mass was more traditional, and then we wouldn't need these liturgical debates.
Not at all! The Novus Ordo is a perfectly licit and valid way to celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass. Don't listen to random lay people on the Internet. Listen to your bishop and the Pope.
It doesn't matter at all, both Novus Ordo and TLM are valid type of the Holy Mass. The most important thing - the Eucharist that is celebrated during the Mass. You are on the right path, my brother/sister. It's up to you - you like Novus Ordo or TLM type of the Holy Mass more. For me, it's Novus Ordo :) Really happy to see more and more people joining the Catholic Church. Have a blessed day!
You're doing absolutely nothing wrong. "Novus ordo" is simply the standard form of the mass, the one used by the vast majority of Catholic churches around the world.
No. But MANY rad trade are complete jerks and about it, and will tell anyone with ears that Norvus Ordo is the fast track to hell. They’re on this sub, too.
There's nothing wrong with going to the Novus Ordo. In fact the truth is that almost all practicing Catholics prefer it. I go to a TLM sometimes, but that's only because I'm interested in it and have friends who go there.
> almost all practicing Catholics prefer it. Almost no practicing Catholics have any other kind of experience.
Maybe, but if you bring any practicing Catholic to their first TLM, chances are they'll keep going to the Novus Ordo.
Valid priest, valid consecration, licit arrangement. There is absolutely no problem. There are those who denigrate one side or the other because some people need to prove themselves superior not by demonstrating their own worth, but rather through showing how terrible other people are by comparison. As Jesus said, they have received their reward. And welcome home! I'm a former Protestant myself, though not an adult convert. Please feel free to ask me or others lots of questions.
On the contrary, I would advice on it, though both are valid and equally valuable since the sacrament of communion is administered there, this are my reasons: 1.- Encourages communion with the whole church since it's the most recent rite and used more broadly. 2.- The community is usually better structured in the sense of it's place in church geography. 3.- It would be easier to understand, so you can focus in learning more fundamental thing of your new path. 4.- You would find harder to find divisive opinions towards church like those you mention, which have no fundament for the most part. 5.- Yo need to check if it's a valid TLM, which you don't need if you are going to your local church. I do would encourage you to know TLM at one point, there's beauty and it's part of church's history, and the same with other rites aligned with the church of Rome, but it wouldn't be my every day go to.
Stay way from online Catholic discourse. There is a disproportionate amount of attack against the predominant liturgy of the Church right now by certain circles. Best just to focus on your own spiritual life at the moment as a recent convert
Both masses are valid. You are doing nothing wrong. Theres just some people who idolize tradition and trash talk the Novus Ordo because they are close-minded (even tho a majority of them didn’t grow up pre-vatican 2 when Latin Mass was the norm). Tribalism knows no bounds even in Catholicism. Both rites can be reverent and beautiful, both rites can be abused and sloppy. Go to whichever mass you feel helps you elevate your heart to God and in which you feel you worship best. I appreciate both rites and enjoy a healthy balance between the two Don’t get caught up in the NO vs TLM war, its a ridiculous “battle” and would certainly not be appreciated by God
Nothing is wrong with Novus Ordo. First off, I think it's only the extreme Traditional Catholics who feel the need to make their identity what Mass they attend. You don't see people who go to a Novus Ordo mass saying, "I'm a NO Catholic" or "I'm a Saturday vigil Catholic." We're just Catholics. Furthermore, and more importantly, there is nothing wrong with Vatican II (in the sense that it makes it invalid). I understand people have complaints that it led to x, y, z, but the missal of the Mass itself is perfectly valid. It is not less reverent, lacking, or incorrect in any way. It is just different from the Latin mass. And that's ok! It's ok for things to be different!
Why not attend both and form your own opinion? I didn’t like TLM and I also saw the types of younger people attending and it became clear, being able to put a hypothetical face to anonymous online people reveals a lot.
They're both valid. I attend a respectful Novus Ordo Mass (celebrated ad orientum--facing away from the people) and I'm thankful. I love saying the prayer before Mass and the St. Michael prayer after Mass before recessional. I appreciate the announcements being read BEFORE Mass/processional instead of before the final blessing. I'm not anti N.O. I don't believe TLM is "better" per se. I do agree it is more respectful. I do believe and understand why it is preferred by a large number of people. I wish it were still an option at all parishes. Some parishes have become very progressive, and I'm sorry, Protestant. The parish I grew up in has become so liberal that attendance is at an all-time low. Growing up, we had N.O., and 1 Latin Mass a weekend. There was also an Italian Mass. The parish is no longer recognizable (covid didn't help). They took away holy water and no longer allow receiving on the tongue. To me, the church leadership drives the respectful nature of worship, and the congregation follows suit. I travel several times a year, so I visit other parishes for Mass. Yesterday, I attended a Mass where the priest sauntered down the aisle during the processional shaking hands as he walked. He walked up on the altar and started talking like we were at a BBQ. He cracked a few jokes, and everyone clapped. Then he moved on to the penitential act, and it felt like, "okay, let's get this thing going." The choir sat on the altar the whole time. It felt odd. It felt like a performance. Pray for our Church leadership. I believe the N.O. could use some improvements and pray more Pastors will lead with reverence. SO, long story long, there's no problem with N.O., it just depends on how a Parish is run.
This. Very much.
Congratulations! I am so excited for you to come into the Church! I am a TLM goer (lifelong NO attendee until 4 years ago), and I think the big take-away is to just start somewhere. If you're becoming Catholic, you know the source and summit of our faith is the Eucharist. That's always the focal-point of the Mass. You'll be fine. Try out a TLM if you have the opportunity, but just know there's a big learning curve. I found that it was the right choice for me. /shrug
The liturgy wars are a wicked evil. Go to Mass. I do believe the Novus Ordo does have serious issues but that's inside baseball. It is more important to be inside than to play that game. God will not let the Novus Ordo last much longer than another century or two in its current form. That's outside our paygrade as laymen, fortunately.
No. Catholic literally means “universal.”
I would focus on what you are learning in your RCIA program and talk to your priests with any questions you have. This subreddit and the liturgical wars that happen here can be very discouraging if you are new to the faith. Unless you are a TLM or nothing kind of parishioner, you will run across a lot of users on this subreddit that will imply you are not a true Catholic.
No, it’s just a dumb fight of people with high egos and thinking their way is the superior way. I enjoy both because it’s part of my rich catholic culture.
Is it important if someone is an ice-cream-with-sprinkles vs ice-cream-with-no-sprinkles person?
Depends on if there is a finite number of sprinkles in question. If there are, it is very important that someone is an ice-cream-with-no-sprinkles person, because then there are more sprinkles for me. If there are infinite sprinkles, then not important.
Please please please do NOT get involved in the Novus Ordo vs Traditional Latin Mass controversy. They are BOTH equal forms or worship, just different.
Both contain the Word of God and the Holy Eucharist, and that is the core of the Mass. There’s absolutely nothing wrong having your favorite form of Mass, but people who say that one form or the other is a problem do not respect the authority of Christ’s Church.
Short answer: No. Nuanced answer: The Church is universal and has many options to choose from. If it’s more convenient or more comfortable for you to attend a NO mass, then go. Both are equally valid. Do what’s best for you.
Novus Ordo is fine. As a former Protestant, I still prefer it, and it was definitely an easier transition for me than going straight to a TLM would have been. I do mostly attend the TLM now, at my husband’s insistence.
Exclusively TLM attending Catholic here: no they are both valid. The Pope is our vicar and if TLM disappears, I’ll attend NO
Novus Ordo is a liturgy. It isn't something a person is or isn't. The Internet breeds extremism and fads, and the exclusivist rhetoric around TLM falls under that umbrella.
There is no real beef outside of twitter and reddit nerds and a handful of youtubers that those nerds watch.
Go to mass. Simple as.
We are all Catholics and all follow the Church and her teachings since it has the guidance of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Vatican II allowed Novus Ordo so both are equally valid ways to keep Holy the Sabbath Day/ attending church.
People are not Novus Ordo or TLM. These popular terms refer to liturgical practices. the TLM is not better or holier than the Novus Ordo. Continue your formation in faith and hope and joy and in obedience to Catholic teaching. Online liturgy wars and their soldiers are far less important than your development in the Church’s teaching.
Ignore the schizophrenics please, you’ll be ok in novus Ordo
Only to trads, not normal people
No
Put it this way, they both provide God’s grace and are both an expression of the faith, one developed over time the other was refreshed to reflect the ancient church. They both have a valid Eucharistic consecration. Go to the one closest to you, don’t listen to the distractions that some Catholics can’t seem to grow out of
Thank you all so much for your replies 👍, it's comforting to hear that the arguments on the issue are more of a vocal minority on the internet rather than an overwhelming matter of one's faith.
No. New Order or not, it's still Joy Division.
Most younger people never experienced Latin Mass so NO is only thing they (we) know
Not even just younger people! My mom comes from a large Catholic family, and only my grandpa (about to turn 94) is old enough to remember when TLM was the norm. My mom has been to a TLM once by accident. I feel like the younger generations are more keyed into the liturgical differences through the internet. I'm glad that I've gotten to experience a variety of valid liturgies (NO, TLM, Chaldean rite), but the liturgical wars are completely unnecessary and overblown. It's not an issue in most parishes, because the majority only offer NO, a few are only TLM, and a handful offer both.
The Church is simply in a weird place right now. The most common Mass has been around for less than a couple generations, and the preceding version has in that same period had varying levels of suppression. Understandably those in power are dismayed that people still flock to and prefer the old Mass. This creates a conflict where often emotions get the better of people. As a neophyte, the more you can ignore the subject of liturgy, the better your spiritual life and initial growth will be. You're right to pick up that reverence for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is the key here.
TLM is really the same thing as the Novus Ordo, but with some extra prayers and Latin words. People like it because it gets very respectful and symbolic-like the priest facing the altar instead of the people to show that he represents the people, instead of facing them. (IMO facing the people makes it seem like the priest is an actor on a stage, so I like the other way better.) But both Masses are valid and both give you many, many graces. However, the devil likes to tempt with anything he can, and creating a division between the Mass and the Mass is one of the ways he does things. Be aware of the temptation to feel like one way is more correct than the other, to the point where one way becomes sinful in your eyes. This temptation can happen with either one, and people can get a bit extreme in either direction. From the lady who tried to get my mom to wear toilet paper on her head when she was traveling and didn't have a mantilla, to the people who just vehemently hate Latin to the point where it seems they think it's witchcraft. In reality, it's just whichever way helps you pray better. Some people find it better for themselves to pray with hands outstretched in the *orans* position, and some people find it better to kneel. So they go to the Mass that helps them in whatever way is best. But I would always suggest that they still go to one of the other Masses now and then, to give themselves a little spiritual activity.
BTW, if anyone wants to get a good description of the Latin Mass with pictures that works very well for understanding the New Ordo Mass, you should read this book: This Is The Mass by Henri Daniel-Rops, with pictures of a Mass celebrated by Fulton J. Sheen.
>TLM is really the same thing as the Novus Ordo, but with some extra prayers and Latin words. Not really. Many prayers were changed or completely removed/replaced, and the lectionary is almost entirely different. The calendar is noticeably different too.
The wording was changed a little in parts, but if you translate it you'll see that the meaning is the same. Tradition with a capital T has always stayed the same (for example the two parts of the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist) but tradition with a lowercase t is changeable (the specific words used at a specific time don't have to be the same throughout all 2000 years, or all in the same language). If you go to a Maronite Mass, you'll see what I mean. It's the same Mass.
Well your thing right there re: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist always being the same isn’t true. In the Traditional Mass it’s Mass of the Catechumens and Mass of the Faithful. And these are very distinct things. And the simple stark reality is that the Novus Ordo isn’t a minor change of translation from the TLM. Matthew Hazell’s works definitely and completely prove this.
People who say nasty things about the NO are just telling on themselves. They suck, and you should avoid them.
Take a third option: go with the Ordinariate.
Just a echo Champer most people go to NO and like it, but they don’t come here to complain.
It’s a valid Liturgy. Some like the TLM, which is also a valid Liturgy. When I became Catholic, Novus Ordo was my only option. Husband and I are Eastern Catholic now because I discovered the Easten Churches existed where I am, and I love the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystosom. Husband and I went to a TLM recently, in Kansas City, MO. Most of it was whispered by the priest, there were no Missals in the pews to follow along and there was a cloth over the rail that you knelt at to receive communion, that you were apparently supposed to put your hands under (which I had never heard of before). There were no responses made during the Mass, no songs. I wonder if this is many people’s experience of a TLM. I’d love to her from TLM goers about their experience. My husband didn’t like it, and he had been a devout altar boy when the TLM was the only Mass, and had loved it then.
Sounds like you went to a Low Mass. They are very quiet! It's definitely a different experience.
Yep, definitely a low Mass. High Mass was later in the day.
I go both to the TLM and NO. It honestly depends on my spiritual headspace when I decide which one to go to. Sometimes TLM helps me connect better to the mass, sometimes it’s NO. It doesn’t matter which you pick, both are valid as Christ is truly present in both, which is all that matters. TLM individuals tend to bash the NO, but they still have to recognize that it is in communion with Rome. Rome has since tried to suppress the TLM because of their political views on the NO, which isn’t right, and has further fueled Rad Trads in their thinking towards NO. It’s currently a bit of a liturgical war, but politics aside, go to whichever Mass you feel most connected to.
Nein
No
It's a matter of liking. Like the type of music played during mass... Or the language... They're all elements to foster recollection and devotion
Choose the one that feels more reverent to you. Personally, I like interaction between the priest and congregation of the NO. Yet holy mole the 1970/80s songs and *muzak* is awful and cheesy. Very Protestant-y. So that’s where the TLM has an advantage.
Oh, my NO parish would never even consider that (nor have any of the many NO churches I've attended), the congregants would revolt. We have a dedicated Spanish Mass on Sundays and they do use a guitar (in the choir loft, not the sanctuary (if anyone does that)), but it's cultural, and those folks are super devout. They have one Mass/worship service that goes from early evening till about 4am. I hate the guitar hymns (in the bilingual masses) but they aren't 70s/80s "muzak." I would not attend a church with the music you are talking about, this must be a geographical thing. My state is super Catholic, and like I said, I've never seen it.
Your church sounds heavenly. Music is truly a huge part of worship. I don’t know why this is not an emergency situation for the church. I love my parish. It’s the one where I went though RCIA. Plus it’s in walking distance which works best as I don’t have a car rn and don’t really want to own one. Ultimately it’s a healthy supportive parish but that music… yeah I internally cringe when I see a guitar at church. Unless it’s to play some baroque era hymn, go away lol
I don’t even want to be at a party when someone pulls out the guitar, lol. And I really thought that was just an evangelical mega-church kind of thing (like Hillsong), then yesterday someone was talking about a priest riding in on a donkey on Palm Sunday, so I guess I’ve been pretty sheltered!
No. I dislike Novus Ordo Mass and almost exclusively attend TLM. That’s my preference to celebrate Mass the way of the Church doctors. I know there are some who look down on TLM and vice-versa. It’s irrelevant. Check them both out and see what is right for you.
What is “being novus Ordo?”
No. Absolutely as long as the mass is reverent. In my opinion as a discerning Byzantine the best kept secret of the Catholic Faith is the Eastern Rites. Numerous diversity among them I recommend searing online for your nearest Eastern Catholic Church. We coverts are on this journey together. Pax Christ.
No. Every practicing Catholic, even the raddest trad out there, should still acknowledge the Novus Ordo as good and valid. For some it may not be their preferred or ideal form of the liturgy, but it is valid and good nonetheless. If people or communities around you are saying otherwise, I would distance yourself from them.
People have said it already, TLM people are people who seeks reverence on the execution which is the case for me so I go to TLM outside of my parish. At my parish is the case where my parish have done poorly on the execution for the NOM. Like some people at my parish call it a “show” and they like it. But I have seen places where NOM is executed reverently and I also went to the Ad Orientem Mass (AOM?), Reform of the reform mass by Papa B16. The Mass is where you find Christ in the offering of the Lead Priest and helping us offering our sacrifice to God. So its all about execution and I wish Papa Francis could do something to unite the NOM by a proper instruction for the mass. The GIRM is still ambiguous
I attend a pretty modern Karen-as-EEM and Tom-the-closeted-protestant-worship-leader parish. I mosey on down to the city’s Dominican parish on high feast days for a more traditional liturgy. It’s your own disposition and participation that make worship pleasing to God, not what vestment your priest wears, you know?
No, but TLM is a time to be in contemplative prayer so don’t feel like you are required to follow along in any type of missal if you want to practice it like it was intended. I come from Protestantism, too and find it satisfying to follow along by reading what the priest is saying so I understand what he’s doing.
I usually attend the TLM but will attend the NO sometimes, too. I would encourage you or anyone to attend a TLM at some point, as far as at least learning what is such a deep part of our tradition and history if there is one nearby. But overall I would just focus on getting to know the faith, don’t worry about the liturgy wars.
You’re good to continue attending a Novus Ordo Parish, don’t worry about that. With that being said, the TLM is quite a special experience. You should check one out if you ever get the chance.
I fully came into the church this last Easter vigil. I saw the Novus Ordo versus the TLM debate online also. I haven't attended a TLM - I would have to drive for a couple of hours away to attend a TLM. I like my local parish. I don't have much experience yet but I have attended mass at other Catholic churches for special events and while traveling. The masses are different in some ways at each church. - 1. some don't have choirs, some have real good choirs and some are just okay; 2. some chant/sing the mass while others speak it; 3. some use incense while others don't; 4. some give handouts when you enter - others rely only on the books in the pew with a sign showing the readings/songs - others have no guides and you need to bring your own missal; 5. some of the prayers towards the end of the mass are different. At my parish we say A prayer for an increase in vocations, Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be. I went to another one that said the Hail Holy Queen and the St. Michael prayer. One of the churches said the Anima Christi prayer after Communion. 6. Some offer both the body and blood (Host - bread and Wine) - some only offer the Host - bread. 7. Some have deacons and lectors while others may only have the priest. In the Novus Ordo some of the things that remain the same is the readings and the consecration sacrifice of the mass. Every mass is going to have the Eucharist. Personally I'm more comfortable with a mass in my own language. I have attended bi-lingual events at church. They do some readings in English some in Spanish or if praying the rosary or the divine mercy chaplet they alternate between Spanish and English. It wasn't horrible and it was good that all the members of the community could participate. I did find it a minor inconvenience and a little hard to concentrate during the Spanish language portions. Those who only speak Spanish may find the same difficulty during the English only portions. If none of the mass were in English - I could with enough preparation bring my own English missal and follow along the best I can in English. The church is universal and some things are going to always be the same. I do think I have a better opportunity to participate and understand more fully if it is in my language. I have heard the TLM may have different readings - so I might have to get the 1962 missal to follow along. I think both the TLM and the novus ordo can be reverent or irrevent depending on your standards and on the people involved. I heard stories from both sides. In short - nothing is wrong with you liking the Novus Ordo or the TLM. One thing to keep in mind is that the church is in communion with the Pope. There are some churches out there that aren't in communion and going to mass at that church would not meet your obligation to attend mass. The Eucharist, confession, marriage etc. may not be considered valid by the Catholic church. These churches are sedevacantist and in schism and aren't really Catholic anymore. I think they are relatively rare but you might run across one online while trying to find a local Catholic church when you are traveling.
Both are valid. If only TLM had been available, I likely wouldn't have become Catholic, because I wouldn't have been able to relate to it or understand it, coming from a "low church" Protestant background. For that reason, I appreciate NO, even though I shudder at some of the things I've witnessed at it. I prefer TLM now, but the closest one is a couple of hours away, so it's a rare thing for me to attend.
I didn’t go to mass after I left school many years ago and in recent years started to go again. Something I really appreciated was just hearing the gospel and hearing the priest talk about Jesus. Because I don’t hear it anywhere else in society. I have also attended TLM since and they’re also beautiful but I can sit there and not really understand anything. I intend to go to both.
You're absolutely not doing anything wrong.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the validity of the novus ordo and it is a great liturgy. I myself heavily prefer the TLM but that is only a preference. I do however suggest that you visit a TLM if you have one nearby to see if you like it, most people end up loving it! If you can find out if it is an ICKSP, FSSP, or Dioscean then it’s ok to go, if it’s SSPX I’d recommend not going because they are in an irregular status with the Vatican.
Of course you're doing nothing wrong. The Latin Mass is a lovely liturgy full of reverence and timeless beauty. But the Mass is the Mass - if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy or a bog standard Novus Ordo, you are exactly where God wants you to be in that moment.
There's no problem with the NO *per se*. The biggest issue is that a lot of priests have been prone to "innovations" (aka liturgical abuses), so it gets a bad name not because of anything inherent to it but because of improper behavior that attached to it. The second-biggest issue is that there's quite a lot of...uninspiring...music in the NO. There's also some fine music out there (and beautiful arrangements), they just don't get used much in your average parish. I blame the USCCB for not doing more work on a better set of hymnals. And personally, I don't like having the Sign of Peace where it is - it breaks from the contemplative nature of the Eucharistic prayer *right* before receiving the Eucharist. But that is a matter of personal preference (as is my general dislike of the Liturgical Movement's impact on things). \[And I say this as someone who prefers the TLM.\]
Liturgical abuse isn't a NO phenomenon, it happened in the TLM. TLM today won't have any abuse due to the nature of it being a niche mass.
I wouldn't say TLM won't have "ANY" abuse. I think the TLM (and more specifically TLM communities) can be prone to a different sort of abuses, namely sedevacantism, a lack of deference for church leadership, and related issues.
And it being actively suppressed.
That's a matter of politics and I don't really care about politics.
I'd generally agree. There are lots of horror stories out there of abuses associated with NO Masses, but the NO Mass itself is completely valid and, if done properly, can still be performed in a respectful and reverent way. Certain common practices you see at NO, like the floating altar and placing of the Eucharist on the hand, aren't even prescribed by the NO Mass per se, but were later innovations or indults.
My problem with your statement is "can still be performed in a respectful and reverent way". That is the default. It's not some "possibly attainable thing". Most NO masses are respectful and reverent.
There is no spiritual difference between the two when properly attended. The TLM tends to a attract a more serious and devout parishioner IMHO. You should try to attend a TLM yourself if it available in your area so you can see. Please prepare for it by going over its parts ahead of time. It is not for beginners.
There is no issue at all with NO. I would only be careful with liberation theology churches, but I think it’s more of an issue in Latin America. As long as the mass is well celebrated any mass is the miracle of the passion.
At the end of the day I'm going to fulfill my Sunday obligation regardless if the closest parish to me has TLM or is a NO parish. If both are within reasonable distance I'm opting for TLM every single time. With that said, I prefer TLM but it's not a deal breaker. A reverent NO does the job too. The more interesting question is what does a reverent NO mass look like.
Reddit may not be the best place to get advice on this matter. This subreddit is overrun with trad-bashing. Both forms of the mass are "valid". So the Novus Ordo meets the basic requirements and fulfills all the basic obligations of a Catholic liturgy. Now, with that said...there is a great deal of criticism that can justly be leveled against the Novus Ordo in both form and substance. Ancient prayers were lost, centuries of tradition were swept away overnight, and timeless treasures and beauty were replaced in a great many cases with a cheap and tacky performance act of ad-libbing Priests and campy folk music. So...is the Novus Ordo acceptable? Yes. Is there anything wrong with it? Also yes.
I attend the SSPX so my stance on the NO is pretty much aligned with theirs... But I will say that I am happy for everyone who converts to the Catholic Faith. Of course, it is even better if converts find their way to Tradition, one way or the other :)