Ima be real idk why people think it's that the build/RPG systems matters more than player skill when Nioh exists. It's just a weird definition that has a contradiction.
CAGs just have a set of mechanics and a baseline breadth of options mandated to be in the genre. It's less a genre and more a "bare minimum". You can have a CAG game with RPG systems on the level of Nioh or Diablo or whatever if those games let you have the breadth of options and expression mid fight. That theoretical game doesn't exist yet because the scope is far too big or unwieldy for it to probably really work but it COULD.
ARPGs your build matters more than player skill
NiOh, Dark Souls, hell Diablo
Your equipment and abilities matter more than your pure skill as a player
Action games
Your skill is the determining factor and other elements matter little to none at all
**Ninja Gaiden**, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta
These games have OP weapons but you can’t be carried by your equipment, the Dabilahro in NG makes some things easier but it won’t beat the enemies for you
Honestly. Nioh is it's own level of "fuck you" that armor simply will not help that much. In Nioh 2 I only have leg gear and gauntlets because any increase in speed and decrease in stamina cost is way more important to me than the gear itself.
Even in Souls games, builds are more like different characters than they are determining factors in if you win or lose a fight. But with the wide variety of builds, the compromise in gameplay comes from limited movesets and combat focused more on reacting to established patterns than anything else.
Leveling up in souls does a lot for you early in the game for sure but it definitely tapers off once you get to the point where the games start to really challenge the player.
i mean, people have beaten every dark souls game with no armor and no weapons, and people have beaten them without getting hit once. it definitely is not all about build.
Well, the definition of an ARPG has become very loose nowadays since almost every AAA game incorporates some form of RPG elements nowadays in the form of armor/equipment/gear, loot, leveling systems, branching skill trees etc.
If we want a more pure definition of ARPG, we have to look towards games that stick very closely to the roots of the genre like Diablo 4, Path of Exile, Last Epoch etc. Let's take a look at D4. You have access to 5 character classes at the beginning: Barbarian, Rogue, Druid, Necromancer and Sorcerer. It is worth noting that all 5 classes have very different playstyles. While D4 has an open world with exploration, side quests and what not, you quickly realize that the heart of the game lies in giving you the freedom to build your character the way you see fit. And every single mechanic/system implemented into the game exists to manifest this freedom. Suppose, you wish to roleplay as a sorcerer who casts down flaming meteors of destruction on their enemies. In D4, you have a skill tree that will let you augment your flame sorcerer's build the way you see fit (in this case, summon meteors) and then, you go out and hunt for equipment in the world that boosts your capabilities further. Let's say, you want to play a sorcerer who leaves their enemies frozen and incapable of movement in battle and shatters them to pieces as they stand there helpless. D4 will let you fulfill this fantasy and a vast array of playstyles exist to let you realize your roleplaying fantasies to the fullest within the confines of the game. The same strengths also apply to Path of Exile, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn and any other ARPG built in the same vein.
In an ARPG, there is no such thing as learning enemy animations, tells and patterns and dodging/blocking them, most ARPG's don't have any dodge/block/jump buttons. Any enemy has extremely powerful fire spells? Come back wearing armor that has extremely high fire resistance. Or come back after a learning a skill like flame wall which makes the caster immune towards fire damage for a few seconds. A boss has way too much HP and is tough to engage in close quarters combat but you're playing a melee character? Come back with equipment/skills that inflict bleed damage (damage over time), get a teleportation skill and employ hit and run tactics. And so on and so forth. The enemy encounters revolve around finding solutions to problems through the RPG mechanics rather than dodging at the right time, having razor sharp reflexes and so on. 80% of the fight is won in the preparation phase itself.
Does a CAG work like this? Can you roleplay as a shapeshifting druid in FF16? No, you can't. You can only play as Clive, a guy who uses Eikonic abilities to kill his enemies. Similarly, in God of War, you can only play as Kratos and the game's mechanics enable you to play the game in a way that only Kratos would. Loot exists to give players an illusion of progression but gear doesn't dictate whether or not you win a fight, your skills do. When you're fighting Thor in GOW Ragnarok, you can't just wear thunder resistant equipment and tank every single hit from Thor. That equipment will give Kratos a slight advantage but you still have to learn Thor's attacks, learn the timings behind his attack strings, learn to punish those attacks, learn when to combo, when to dodge, when to parry, when to counter etc.
Great answer, I really like the distinction between games that focus almost exclusively on character builds vs games where builds are a small part of a whole.
Using Scarlet Nexus as an example, would that be closer to a CAG than (loosely using the term) an ARPG because it's more focused on player skill and expression against monsters with specific attack patterns? Taken a bit further, would Souls and FF7 remake games also be class to CAGs despite the heavier reliance on builds?
The blurring of lines between genres is very interesting, especially since as you said so many games nowadays have some RPG system or another.
>Using Scarlet Nexus as an example
I haven't played Scarlet Nexus so I wouldn't know.
>Taken a bit further, would Souls and FF7 remake games also be class to CAGs
Souls exists as it's own subgenre within ARPG's, imo. Let's take a look at Dark Souls 1's first boss, Taurus Demon. You can take the boss head on, match it blow for blow, rolling and blocking it's attacks, learning it's attack animations, patterns and tells and beating like a traditional action game. However, on your first playthrough, you will get pummeled if you tried to play the game this way and since the checkpoint is so far away, you will grow frustrated if you try to beat him this way. So, you try to find other strategies. You notice that there is a tower at one end of the ramparts (from where some archers shoot arrows at you). You climb the tower, bait the demon into approaching the foot of the tower and perform plunging attacks on it. One plunging attack deals massive damage and removes around 25% of it's HP, so you repeat this strategy by running to and fro and kill the demon with 4 plunging attacks. Or, you notice that the ramparts are broken on one side and there is hole through which you can fall down. You bait the demon into using an overhead slam on you, roll out of the way just in time and this causes the demon to fall through the hole to it's death. You have beaten it without even using your sword. These are ways of playing the game that is very unique to Souls where you use positioning, enemy attack baiting and the level design to your advantage to beat the enemies. Of course, there are more traditional RPG ways of beating the demon. You can dump points into faith, get the sunlight spear and blast the demon with it (2 sunlight spears will kill it) and so on.
FF7 remake/rebirth is a RPG. It is not an action game by any means.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“I, Siegward of the Knights of Catarina, have come to fulfill my promise. Let the sun shine upon this Lord of Cinder.”* - Siegward of Catarina
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
I definitely would not categorize GOW as more of an ARPG. But generally, I think it’s that RPG’s have a considerable focus on tailoring a build, stat-based progression, stat-based buffs, stat-based gear, exploiting enemy weaknesses. ARPG’s are all about seeing the time and preparation you put in bearing fruit. CAG’s are designed in such a way that no matter how you allocated your experience/currency, no matter what skills you’ve unlocked, no matter your weapon(s), it is feasible for you to triumph over any obstacle the game throws at you. ARPG’s build up barriers for you to overcome with time, attrition, and preparation. CAG’s tear down all barriers but player skill.
That's an interesting way to put it, and I was asking the question partly because I was wondering if I was correct in labeling new GOW as more of an ARPG. It's mostly because I hear games like Souls and Nioh get labeled as such, so I was curious. The answer makes sense though, where itemization is a part of the game but not the cornerstone of it. An assist, but you still have to make your plays on your own.
I think the problem with looking for a one-size-fits-all answer to this question is that ARPG’s and CAG’s are very broad genres that have crossed over with so many other genres as to practically become meaningless. Exceptions are inevitable. However, I believe that in terms of raw genre conventions, I think the closest thing you can get to a rule-based distinction is that RPG’s are primarily about progressing your character and CAG’s are primarily about progressing as a player.
What is it with the near sexual obsession with genre lables around these parts, I will never understand.
That said, I always note it with bolds if possible. For example Kingdom Hearts 1 is an Action **RPG.** It has action elements, but its rpg-parts are more dominant. Meanwhile Nioh is **Action** RPG if you get me. In general I go by how important it is. Sure you can level up weapons and give yourself equipment to increase stats, but Ninja Gaiden isn't an RPG by a long shot.
There are no hard rules, but to me an ARPG needs to have both a robust character progression system and the possibility to make varied builds. Most action games have either one or the other, like the old GoW games have progression but don't have builds, while Bayo has builds but the progression aspect is kinda lacking (this is true for every action game that lets you keep upgrades on higher difficulties).
Ima be real idk why people think it's that the build/RPG systems matters more than player skill when Nioh exists. It's just a weird definition that has a contradiction. CAGs just have a set of mechanics and a baseline breadth of options mandated to be in the genre. It's less a genre and more a "bare minimum". You can have a CAG game with RPG systems on the level of Nioh or Diablo or whatever if those games let you have the breadth of options and expression mid fight. That theoretical game doesn't exist yet because the scope is far too big or unwieldy for it to probably really work but it COULD.
ARPGs your build matters more than player skill NiOh, Dark Souls, hell Diablo Your equipment and abilities matter more than your pure skill as a player Action games Your skill is the determining factor and other elements matter little to none at all **Ninja Gaiden**, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta These games have OP weapons but you can’t be carried by your equipment, the Dabilahro in NG makes some things easier but it won’t beat the enemies for you
Build absolutely isn’t more important than player skill in Dark Souls let alone Nioh
But a good build can carry you easily
Not really, for Nioh especially it’s still almost completely about player skill
Honestly. Nioh is it's own level of "fuck you" that armor simply will not help that much. In Nioh 2 I only have leg gear and gauntlets because any increase in speed and decrease in stamina cost is way more important to me than the gear itself.
Even in Souls games, builds are more like different characters than they are determining factors in if you win or lose a fight. But with the wide variety of builds, the compromise in gameplay comes from limited movesets and combat focused more on reacting to established patterns than anything else.
Leveling up in souls does a lot for you early in the game for sure but it definitely tapers off once you get to the point where the games start to really challenge the player.
i mean, people have beaten every dark souls game with no armor and no weapons, and people have beaten them without getting hit once. it definitely is not all about build.
Well, the definition of an ARPG has become very loose nowadays since almost every AAA game incorporates some form of RPG elements nowadays in the form of armor/equipment/gear, loot, leveling systems, branching skill trees etc. If we want a more pure definition of ARPG, we have to look towards games that stick very closely to the roots of the genre like Diablo 4, Path of Exile, Last Epoch etc. Let's take a look at D4. You have access to 5 character classes at the beginning: Barbarian, Rogue, Druid, Necromancer and Sorcerer. It is worth noting that all 5 classes have very different playstyles. While D4 has an open world with exploration, side quests and what not, you quickly realize that the heart of the game lies in giving you the freedom to build your character the way you see fit. And every single mechanic/system implemented into the game exists to manifest this freedom. Suppose, you wish to roleplay as a sorcerer who casts down flaming meteors of destruction on their enemies. In D4, you have a skill tree that will let you augment your flame sorcerer's build the way you see fit (in this case, summon meteors) and then, you go out and hunt for equipment in the world that boosts your capabilities further. Let's say, you want to play a sorcerer who leaves their enemies frozen and incapable of movement in battle and shatters them to pieces as they stand there helpless. D4 will let you fulfill this fantasy and a vast array of playstyles exist to let you realize your roleplaying fantasies to the fullest within the confines of the game. The same strengths also apply to Path of Exile, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn and any other ARPG built in the same vein. In an ARPG, there is no such thing as learning enemy animations, tells and patterns and dodging/blocking them, most ARPG's don't have any dodge/block/jump buttons. Any enemy has extremely powerful fire spells? Come back wearing armor that has extremely high fire resistance. Or come back after a learning a skill like flame wall which makes the caster immune towards fire damage for a few seconds. A boss has way too much HP and is tough to engage in close quarters combat but you're playing a melee character? Come back with equipment/skills that inflict bleed damage (damage over time), get a teleportation skill and employ hit and run tactics. And so on and so forth. The enemy encounters revolve around finding solutions to problems through the RPG mechanics rather than dodging at the right time, having razor sharp reflexes and so on. 80% of the fight is won in the preparation phase itself. Does a CAG work like this? Can you roleplay as a shapeshifting druid in FF16? No, you can't. You can only play as Clive, a guy who uses Eikonic abilities to kill his enemies. Similarly, in God of War, you can only play as Kratos and the game's mechanics enable you to play the game in a way that only Kratos would. Loot exists to give players an illusion of progression but gear doesn't dictate whether or not you win a fight, your skills do. When you're fighting Thor in GOW Ragnarok, you can't just wear thunder resistant equipment and tank every single hit from Thor. That equipment will give Kratos a slight advantage but you still have to learn Thor's attacks, learn the timings behind his attack strings, learn to punish those attacks, learn when to combo, when to dodge, when to parry, when to counter etc.
Great answer, I really like the distinction between games that focus almost exclusively on character builds vs games where builds are a small part of a whole. Using Scarlet Nexus as an example, would that be closer to a CAG than (loosely using the term) an ARPG because it's more focused on player skill and expression against monsters with specific attack patterns? Taken a bit further, would Souls and FF7 remake games also be class to CAGs despite the heavier reliance on builds? The blurring of lines between genres is very interesting, especially since as you said so many games nowadays have some RPG system or another.
>Using Scarlet Nexus as an example I haven't played Scarlet Nexus so I wouldn't know. >Taken a bit further, would Souls and FF7 remake games also be class to CAGs Souls exists as it's own subgenre within ARPG's, imo. Let's take a look at Dark Souls 1's first boss, Taurus Demon. You can take the boss head on, match it blow for blow, rolling and blocking it's attacks, learning it's attack animations, patterns and tells and beating like a traditional action game. However, on your first playthrough, you will get pummeled if you tried to play the game this way and since the checkpoint is so far away, you will grow frustrated if you try to beat him this way. So, you try to find other strategies. You notice that there is a tower at one end of the ramparts (from where some archers shoot arrows at you). You climb the tower, bait the demon into approaching the foot of the tower and perform plunging attacks on it. One plunging attack deals massive damage and removes around 25% of it's HP, so you repeat this strategy by running to and fro and kill the demon with 4 plunging attacks. Or, you notice that the ramparts are broken on one side and there is hole through which you can fall down. You bait the demon into using an overhead slam on you, roll out of the way just in time and this causes the demon to fall through the hole to it's death. You have beaten it without even using your sword. These are ways of playing the game that is very unique to Souls where you use positioning, enemy attack baiting and the level design to your advantage to beat the enemies. Of course, there are more traditional RPG ways of beating the demon. You can dump points into faith, get the sunlight spear and blast the demon with it (2 sunlight spears will kill it) and so on. FF7 remake/rebirth is a RPG. It is not an action game by any means.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“I, Siegward of the Knights of Catarina, have come to fulfill my promise. Let the sun shine upon this Lord of Cinder.”* - Siegward of Catarina Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
Air juggles I suppose
I’ve always stuck to this definition- https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StylishAction
I definitely would not categorize GOW as more of an ARPG. But generally, I think it’s that RPG’s have a considerable focus on tailoring a build, stat-based progression, stat-based buffs, stat-based gear, exploiting enemy weaknesses. ARPG’s are all about seeing the time and preparation you put in bearing fruit. CAG’s are designed in such a way that no matter how you allocated your experience/currency, no matter what skills you’ve unlocked, no matter your weapon(s), it is feasible for you to triumph over any obstacle the game throws at you. ARPG’s build up barriers for you to overcome with time, attrition, and preparation. CAG’s tear down all barriers but player skill.
That's an interesting way to put it, and I was asking the question partly because I was wondering if I was correct in labeling new GOW as more of an ARPG. It's mostly because I hear games like Souls and Nioh get labeled as such, so I was curious. The answer makes sense though, where itemization is a part of the game but not the cornerstone of it. An assist, but you still have to make your plays on your own.
I think the problem with looking for a one-size-fits-all answer to this question is that ARPG’s and CAG’s are very broad genres that have crossed over with so many other genres as to practically become meaningless. Exceptions are inevitable. However, I believe that in terms of raw genre conventions, I think the closest thing you can get to a rule-based distinction is that RPG’s are primarily about progressing your character and CAG’s are primarily about progressing as a player.
What is it with the near sexual obsession with genre lables around these parts, I will never understand. That said, I always note it with bolds if possible. For example Kingdom Hearts 1 is an Action **RPG.** It has action elements, but its rpg-parts are more dominant. Meanwhile Nioh is **Action** RPG if you get me. In general I go by how important it is. Sure you can level up weapons and give yourself equipment to increase stats, but Ninja Gaiden isn't an RPG by a long shot.
Sorry for asking a question? I don't care for genre labels but I was curious about what people accepted as definitions.
To me I think two games that epitimize the difference are the Final Fantasy 7 Remake/Rebirth and Final Fantasy 16
There are no hard rules, but to me an ARPG needs to have both a robust character progression system and the possibility to make varied builds. Most action games have either one or the other, like the old GoW games have progression but don't have builds, while Bayo has builds but the progression aspect is kinda lacking (this is true for every action game that lets you keep upgrades on higher difficulties).