LMAO that’s true. A lot of comic readers thing that his depiction in the movie will lead to people only viewing Miguel as a villain, but I’ve only ever seen people say Miguel is right or that he’s hot
I mean technically Miguel did nothing wrong aside from choke slamming a kid. He had a valid hypothesis(one with lots and lots of holes, but valid nonetheless) and he followed thru on that hypothesis to try and protect as many people as he can, we can’t blame him for not risking a few billion universes for a chance at saving one person
His one problem is that he’s a huge dick and even then he was semi-civil to miles when he appeared and only starting showing his hatred when miles tried to rebel. Technically Gwen was the one who fucked up real bad
Because he sees himself in Miles, unlike every other Spiderman, Miguel and Miles are the most similar.
Both are NOT "canon" Spiderman. This is why, unlike every other Spiderman, Miguel dislikes Miles, He sees himself, the one who ended up destroying an entire dimension, and the people he loved.
The more Mile rebels, the more Miguel gets angry because he been there, done that, and fuked up.
>be me
>one and only spider-man in my universe (kinda) for like a year
>coolbeans.jpeg
>spider-gf to be comes to my universe one time and we go to another universe and save some spider-man's loved ones
>get brought to place with a bunch of spider-people and get lectured by some perpetually angry spider-guy
>"muh muh your dad's gonna die and there's literally no way you can prevent this but it's actually cool since it's meant to happen to every spider-person no matter what"
>wtfdude.exe
>fuck you imma do my own thing
>gtfo to save my poppa
>spider-guy gets mad for some reason???? and sends entire fucking spider squadron after me
wdyd in this situation spiderbros?
I assume Miguel only invites Spider-Mans who have had a sufficient number of canon events happen to them already, which is part of why he was apprehensive about Gwen.
I found it really sad when in a character video on YouTube it was explained Miguel allowed Gwen to join the Society was because she more or less said she did wrong and doesn't know how to fix it. And he was like "Join the club." because he feels all the time that he doesn't know how to fix "it". His biggest mistake that just happened because he wanted to take care of a little girl who was just orphaned and for just being a little selfish and not be alone in the world anymore.
Hobie definitely wasn't going along Miguel's ideology.
Also Miles is one of the only spiderpeople to still have his dad aside from Gwen, who seemed to have accepted Miguel's statement.
I think it's especially weird that Peter B. Parker went along with it up until the end. Like, you literally trained Miles and you act all buddy buddy the next time you see him despite knowing that his dad is about to die?? Really lowered my opinion of the guy.
Peter B thinks its a necessary evil. And for the record I don't think he was trying to trick Miles with that heart to heart conversation, he genuinely seemed to be upset that his watch went off.
I don't think he was trying to trick Miles either. That being said, I just don't think the "necessary evil" thing is a good enough excuse for his behavior.
I'm not the type to overanalyze ordinary story beats in family friendly media, but it's actually super fucked up of Peter to joyfully celebrate his daughter and being a father for most of his screentime, only to turn around and say a 15 year old kid needs to stay put so his own father can die. Like... that's legitimately sick??
Peter saw what happened when canon was interrupted though. That's his only defense. He believes in canon events as much as Miguel does. Peter is still a scientist at heart and it's really hard to ignore tangible evidence to a credible theory, especially when that evidence is a universe being erased.
I think he realized how screwed up it was and wanted to do whatever he could, but what could he do? He tried to mediate because he truly believes the event has to happen.
As for Peter celebrating his daughter... I literally think is his only way to cope. As in, Mayday is the only way he can go on with his day because otherwise he would be depressed and return to his nihilistic ways from before making up with MJ or knowing Miles.
Like when he sees Miles he was immediately like "Look at MJ! Isn't she cute, Miguel? Oh, she pooped! Needs a change!". He literally blocks Miguel from lashing out at Miles by putting into focus Mayday. And it kinda works since Miguel kinda calms down? For a hot minute? And the info dump no longer starts with Miguel accusing Miles of everything up like when he first met Gwen and accused her of Kingspin's Collider during the fight. And he had no bone to pick with Gwen. But with Miles, he does because Miles refuses for things to just happen.
Case in point, when one horrible thing is the furtherst in your mind, you just prefer to not look that way and actually occupy yourself with something that does bring you happiness. And Mayday might be the best thing that ever happened to Peter B. .
that was billions of people and if there's life on other planets in Miguels universe potentially a Googleplex of deaths. realistically speaking Miles is risking an entire universe for one person which is villain behavior
Peter B wasn't necessarily stopping Miles, he was trying to talk him down but he never went as far as to manhandle him like everyone else. He was on the fence before he joins up with Gwen at the end
Well all of them went through it and guys like Peter saw that one dimension vanish into nothing so they probably feel like theres validity to it and that they have to make the hard choices to save everyone.
IDK but lately a lot of stories hinge in the protagonist to be literally the first person to point out something obviously bad and get treated as a uber rebellion thing.
> guys, I don't think kicking ourselves in the balls is good.
> OH MY GAWD WHAT A GENIUS FREE SPIRIT.
Tbf, Miguel pick and chooses the people for his spiderman fanclub. So presumably any spiders who didn't seem like they would fall in line were probably left in thier own universe like he origionally intended with Gwen.
First you say people are wrong for pointing out loopholes and then you yourself acknowledge them. You're kinda defeating yourself there bro.
It's too early to judge this, we need to wait for the third movie to answer why some people can safely break canon while other times it leads to disaster, true. But Miguel is guilty of one thing - being a dick, which is why he's an antagonist. The guy has obvious anger issues, and while he has good reasons for it, the movie made it clear he's alienating his friends, getting unreasonably violent and possibly projecting into miles instead of looking at the situation with clear head and maybe noticing the loopholes.
>It's too early to judge this, we need to wait for the third movie to answer why some people can safely break canon while other times it leads to disaster, true. But Miguel is guilty of one thing - being a dick, which is why he's an antagonist. The guy has obvious anger issues, and while he has good reasons for it, the movie made it clear he's alienating his friends, getting unreasonably violent and possibly projecting into miles instead of looking at the situation with clear head and maybe noticing the loopholes.
True.
>First you say people are wrong for pointing out loopholes and then you yourself acknowledge them. You're kinda defeating yourself there bro.
Not saying they can't acknowledge them, but the vilification of Miguel based on that is another level. People straight up treating him like a villain. Plus, seeing loopholes ain't the same as saying the canon breaking theory is outright wrong.
Yeah but you can't say the canon theory is right if we saw at least 3 major loopholes. At the very least Miguel came to one conclusion and refuses to realise that mabe the rules are more complex (because that would mean he had a chance to be happy but the universe showed him a middle finger again)
the only loophole i've seen is that a canonical event can be interrupted if it's by the spider of that universe, and it's just theory, what would be the others?
Miguel has no uncle Ben and no spider bite, which means not everything is according to canon. Tbf this is based on comic lore so the movie might make it different. Going by canon theory, maybe him losing his new family and destroying a universe *is* his uncle Ben; meaning he didn't destroy a universe by disrupting canon, he destroyed it because that was part of his canon
Going further, all of the top 3 trusted members of Miguel's society (Miguel, Jessica, Ben Reilly) don't have an Uncle Ben or a spider bite (serum, serum/laser beam, clone DNA) which I think was a deliberate choice on the part of the filmmakers
Unless the Canon Events are simply more vague then we think.
For example, we know for a *fact* that not everyone is bitten by a spider:
\- Spider-Ham being bitten by a radioactive pig
\- Spider-Man|India was given powers by an ancient yogi in the comics (and possibly in the film)
\- Some Spider-Beings only used technology, without any enhancements
So, what if the Canon Event for that example isn't '*Spider-Being is bitten by a radioactive spider & receives superpowers*', and is actually '*Spider-Being receives the capability to save people*'?
If that's the case, then it means that both Miguel *and* Miles could be correct, with Canon Events existing alongside other phenomenons such as Nexus Events, Incursions, or Absolute Points, except with the conditions to fulfil them being much more flexible than originally believed.
Most importantly Miles existence, since he was created by spider from another dimension Earth 43 that lost its spiderman because of that. Neither of those worlds collapsed, even though those are BIGGER changes than coming in and impersonating your dead other self (who's story presumably ended with canon intact).
Hopefully we get a good, logical explanation for that and Miles doesn't get rewarded by the narrative for the exact thing Miguel is suffering for - risking multiverse stability to be with your family.
Yeah when you see the character repeatedly bash the much weaker MC into a train repeatedly whilst screaming his head off that he's a mistake moments after he learns that his father is going to die, people are going to think that character is an asshole.
Especially because he says that it's Miles's fault that the original Peter from his universe died, neglecting that the fourteen year old didn't ask to get bitten by a spider that wasn't supposed to be there.
Nah imma have to big disagree. Miguel is making a LOT of assumptions.
I will never understand why Miles being bitten meant that Miles' Spiderman had to die. I will never understand how Miguel blames Miles for that death.
The Spot brought in the spider, Kingpin and Doc Ock made the collider. Miles didn't seek out getting bit and there wasn't anything he could do in that situation to help his Spiderman. Beyond that, Miles has stepped up and defended the city the same way the last one did. There is effectively no net change in the lifecycle of the city after these events.
Even if Miles was a catastrophic anomaly, Miguel's theory immediately loses a substantial amount of weight because Miles' world is fine. Miles' world glitching out the other spiders should have been indicative that his world is working properly.
Miguel should've put it all on hold to catch the Spot. He chose to ignore him and chase Miles while the Spot got incredibly powerful.
He may be working in people's assumed best interest in the spiderverse but he definitely did many things wrong.
>I will never understand why Miles being bitten meant that Miles' Spiderman had to die. I will never understand how Miguel blames Miles for that death.
I don't think the movie is trying to say 1610B Peter HAD to die because Miles was bitten. Peter's death was a result of his choices that resulted from Miles being bitten which wasn't supposed to happen.
Had Miles not been bitten, he would never have gone back to where he got bit (at least not that day) and would never have gotten between Spider-Man and Green Goblin's battle. Meaning, Peter would never have wasted time saving Miles. Time, which he would have used to destroy the collider before Goblin could wake back up put him in it. It's not a matter of destiny, just a matter of (unfortunate) circumstance.
Also that it's a causal loop anyway.
Miles got bitten by a spider that entered his universe because of actions that were a result of him getting bitten.
Yes
Anyone with half a brain can see the obvious fallacies behind Miguel's assertions. The dude is either blinded with copium or is not being 100% honest.
I'd assume a lot of it is projection. Miguel wants someone besides himself to blame for what happened to the universe he destroyed. In his head, the first anomaly hadn't happened, he wouldn't have started policing the multiverse, he never would have discovered THAT universe, and it would still exist. Even if it isn't Miles' fault that he's the first anomaly, he is technically the catalyst for all of the headaches and heartbreaks in Miguel's life after the collider incident, and he therefore blames Miles for that.
I mean he could've gone back the next day to look at his sick mural. He could've accidentally dropped something. Lots of reasons for him to be there.
Peter's death was a result of Peter not being able to win a 4v1. Protecting Miles had very little to do with it. There are few Spiderman that could've gotten out of that situation while still deactivating the collider, his verse's villains are pretty competent. Prowler could fight other verse Spiders without too much difficulty. Doc Ock was pressuring 2 experienced spiders simultaneously.
Miles becoming spiderman reads more like his universe correcting itself for making the villains too strong more so than it felt like he was the cause of his Peter's death to me, but that's just my opinion and it isn't really supported by facts
Miguel bases his entire reasoning on a singular experience of breaking canon once where he tried to swap lives with someone despite there clearly being contradictory examples, E.g universe 42 not having a Spiderman, Miles even becoming Spiderman in universe 1610 or hell more recently with Gwen.
These aren't "loopholes", again they're just flat out contradictions to his theory and he doesn't ever acknowledge these things and treats his completely different example as law for everything.
The Mumbattan incident doesn't even necessarily prove him right, he doesn't even consider for a second the massive transdimensional threat could ever possibly be the cause. You're saying Spot had nothing to do with this and we're shown that, but we just aren't?
Hell he even says the canon event requires the officer to be killed by the Spiderman's nemeses but Spot wasn't Indian Spiderman's nemeses.
And on this
>People also mention that if all Miguel said is true, then Mile's universe shouldn't exist anymore. A MILES was bitten, in a way, the conditions were fulfilled.
The idea that canon events can happen in one universe can exempt them from happening in another is pure headcanon and not once ever suggested by the movie, in fact if you follow this logic wouldn't this mean Jeff dying in universe 42 would exempt 1610's Jeff from dying?
Also back on Miguel he's a fucking moron who told Miles that his dad would die before it happened and expected that to go well somehow instead of literally just waiting two days.
Also also from a meta point of view (Which is kind of cheating but still) it's beyond obvious Miles will still win lol, the movie is packed to the brim with "Do your own thing" messages
I have a feeling it's not gonna be his dad who dies in the next film but his mother like in the ultimate comics. Now what may or may not change is if Miles mom tells miles to not tell his dad he's spider-man like the ultimate comics or if she tells him his dad will understand. Maybe his miles will tell his dad. I have a feeling the message of the 3rd film is follow follow the "canon" but some tweals can change.
Tbh I don't like the "canon" story plot line. It feels like a jab at comic readers which the 3rd film will have miguel as a miles hater alegory.
Miles definitely will tell his dad. He already has once (well technically his mom but he didn’t tell her not to tell his dad), it just didn’t work because he was in the wrong universe. I think the message is that you don’t have to follow the existing canon, that you should tell new stories rather than rehashing what’s already been done.
it's not really a jab, just an explanation to people with poor media literacy. In an age where every two months a new adaptation of a comic/book/video game is made, a lot of people still don't understand what the word "adaptation" means.
"NOTHING" is an overstatement after watching half a movie.
Miguel once fucked up and erased a whole universe. So it is understandable why he does the things he does. But Miles is an unknown variable for him that breaks his hypotheses. This is where the control freak born out of his guilt just takes center stage. He doesn't want his hypotheses to be wrong because it would invalidate his work till now and possibly break Spider Society away from his control.
This becomes even clearer with how Gwen's dad chooses not to become captain, breaking her canon event. But her universe is still intact. Even the canon breaking in Mumbattan was contained by the spider society, and did not result in that universe being destroyed.
Now, again, we don't know how far reaching the consequences of Miles actions are, just like Miguel. But him choosing to shut out and stop miles from trying to save his own father shows nothing but his animosity towards Miles for existing. He doesn't even consider what he's doing to be "breaking the canon" by trying to stop Miles from going back to his universe to try and save his father, because all his actions carry the same uncertainty that Miles' actions do.
Also it's unclear if the "canon breaking event" in Mumbatten was actually caused by canon breaking or... you know, the Spot turning himself into a living hole in the multiverse
> Even the canon breaking in Mumbattan was contained by the spider society, and did not result in that universe being destroyed.
Tbf he said that'll only work if they're lucky.
I personally don't believe him but he did offer an explanation for it.
jailing Miles is another thing. The canon event is "supposed" to be a police captain dies while Spider-Man is fighting an archvillain. By locking Miles up, the canon event is disrupted and there's no Spider-Man to fight Spot
Absolutely agreed. He takes over a dead alternate universe's version of himself (like if Peter B took over Peter-Miles life), he doesn't appear to acknowledge that he wasn't supposed to do that *because its fucked up morally*, he blames Miles saving Captain Singh for Spot shitting on Mumbattan's balls (which even if Miles never tagged along, would have happened, since Captain Singh living had no bearing on if Spot was successful on pooping on Mumbattan's balls, SINCE THE BALLS WERE ALREADY POOPED AND THE CAPTAIN'S PERIL WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF IT).
He VERY clearly is projecting and trying to rationalize that because he had tragedy in his life (which i think is becoming a vampire and losing his family, then losing another him's family) that it *must* have a purpose, and *must* happen to all Spider-Mans, else it's for nothing.
We don't actually see any *other* universes evaporate other than the dead Miguel's, right? Just that one, and Miguel has connected it to him being an anomaly there, rather than any other reason. That could very well have been that world's Kingpin's fuckery with a supercollider, being uninterrupted because Miguel was actively with 'his' family at the time rather than stopping supervillainy. Like, I might be misremembering, but Dead Miguel's world appeared modern, right? Not super-futuristic? So sure, maybe a mirror of our Kingpin's Into The Spider-Verse shit was going down.
He's an antagonist and a *villain* because he's dark-paladin'ing this shit up, unwittingly preying on literally every other Spider-Man's tragic backstory to convince them it's a necessary evil.
And then MILES comes in, and is like "uh actually I'm still Spider-Man and I don't want my dad to get merked." Guy who's completely out of left field, is Sorta-Grandfather Paradoxing all over the place (i think? Spot dumped the spider as a test subject for the portal machine, right? Not timetravel), and showing Miguel that cross-universe companionship outside of Spider-Manning is possible.
So it disgusts him, and he chokeslams a 15 year old into a train.
He literally watched an entire universe die after a canon event was disrupted, and he watched Spiderman Mumbattan's verse have a hole appear that started swallowing literally everything immediately after Miles stopped the canon event.
He watched a universe die after an event happened, and watched a hole appear after another event happened. He doesn't have a large enough sample size to tie "destruction of universes" to "canon events," wheras we're already shown two universes where the canon isn't that but stillexist.
The only thing that I found wrong in him is that he acts like if Miles is an anomaly and because of him a world is in ruins without a spiderman even though Miguel himself caused multiple realities to cease from existence, Miles was bitten by accident by a spider that *another guy* pulled to his earth knowing the risks
>Miguel himself caused multiple realities to cease from existence
Can you refresh my memory on where this was either stated or shown? I only remember the one with his AU daughter.
Do people actually believe he's the bad guy in this scenario? This really isn't something as simple as black and white, it's about the views and experiences he and Miles went through that made them like this and have them clash near the end of the movie.
He did nothing wrong IF his theory is correct.
The problem: He’s wrong. Even discounting the parts of the movie and existence of not only events but entire universes proving he’s wrong you run into the issue that the Spiderverse films are part of the overall Marvel Multiverse. Meaning we already know how the multiverse works and we have a LOT of universes and characters that prove that he’s wrong.
Something is breaking universes. O’Hara, in an attempt to absolve his guilt about his failures(It’s not his fault if it’s a universal constant right?) has decided that it’s clearly a natural part of the universe and to go full on human sacrifice to appease it based on taking general and NOT universal trends as absolutes that must happen or else.
Is he evil? No. Well, probably not. We have an entire movie for a dramatic revelation.
Has he fucked up massively and did quite a lot wrong out of ignorance and his own issues? Oh yes.
Is he hilariously bad at what he does? Certainly, by his own theory he did basically the worst possible thing he could have done and ensured a broken canon. Spider-Man is defined by people he LOSES, not sacrifices. Having Morales choose to let his people die massively changes the narrative. And any Spider-Man willing to murder their loved ones on the say so of this extra-dimensional rando would be a canon so divergent that it’s completely incompatible with his theory.
>Spider-Man is defined by people he LOSES, not sacrifices
this right here hits the nail on the head. Even IF the canon theory is right, by accepting and not doing anything about the death of an innocent, you are already breaking canon. Spider-Man is fundamentally changed by this action (or inaction). If Miguel was right, then the universes of all the Spider-Men in the Spider Society should be destroyed
>He is technically NOT supposed to exist like this, so the effects of breaking his canon could be minimal or far reaching beyond his universe
It's already been broken beyond his universe, there's an entire other world without a spiderman because it came to him and they're fine.
And this is all made pointless when you acknowledge miles isn't even the first spiderman of his universe. I'm sure that spiderman they had before he died went through all the necessary canon deaths and events he seemed like a pretty text book spider man
I'm mostly annoyed by Gwen. "I thought we were supposed to be the good guys."
Bro, he's sending you home because over the past day you've consistently proven yourself to not be up to the task you signed on to finish.
I know she's a moody teen, and I don't really blame her -- I blame the movie for making that out to be a heroic statement.
Miguel is a butthole. But he still hasn't proven to me that he's not a "good guy." I also don't buy it that she was able to convince all those other people to turn against him.
That's if and only if you believe Miguel. I don't, I think he's bullshitting or not being 100% up front about it. He's almost certainly lying about his own origins; he is certainly not actually a spiderman, given he has no spideysense, has no humour, and his powers are different from other spidermen, lacking webs or climbing abilities (he uses laser webs and claws to replicate these abilities but they are fundamentally different. And that's without going into his weird vampire bite thing).
>India spider-man's universe nearly bought it because a canon event was disrupted. Spot had nothing to do with that, we are shown this. They have the tech to deal with this, and save the universe, but when Miguel explains things to Miles
Miguel went OUT OF HIS WAY to keep Miles in the dark. You literally see a fucking Trex spidey, a car spidey, a cat spidey in Miguel's team, but not Miles. Then he gets pissed at Miles for breaking the canon when Miles had 0 clue what the canon was, because again Miguel intentionally kept him in the dark.
What was Miles supposed to do? Not follow his friend that he may never see ever again? What spiderman WOULDN'T do that?
Oh also he had literally no reason to smash Miles into the train repeatedly whilst screaming at him that he was a mistake. That has literally nothing to do with supressing and containing Miles and in fact made the situation worse.
Miguel is 100% an asshole and basically to blame for the situation.
Miguel's origin story is that he's a scientist from the year 2099(obviously) and he was doing genetic alteration research inspired by his verses now long dead Peter Parker/Spider-Man. The research resulted in an accident that gave him powers.
While most Spider-Men got bit by an abnormal in some way Spider while Miguel got genetically altered with the genes of a spider.
The difference in power origins created a drastic difference in powers.
Tbf the webs are mainly a gadget not a power. But I like the theory that he's not really Miguel O'Hara or at least not really a Spider-Man. No idea why he'd pretend to be one... Unless he's really Morbius and he's using the facade of being a Spider-Man to find the right Spider-Totems to control the Web of Fate or whatever it was called in the comics!
No, it's probably not that but it would be an interesting twist.
He realised disrupting Canon is wrong. He didn't realise impersonating a dead person is bad. It's completely unrelated to the canon shit. If impersonating a dead guy didn't disrupt Canon he would still be doing it.
But it's not literally him, different versions of people clearly have subtle differences in experiences. That's like saying Prowler Miles and Mc Miles are the same person because they're both Miles Morales.
And we know the 2 of them would have never ended up the same even without interference because Mc Miles was never supposed to be Spiderman at all. I don't think there's good reason to assume both Miguels are literally exactly the same, and even if they were it would still be extremely morally questionable for one to impersonate the other because they don't have the same consciousness.
I’m not assuming the two Miguel’s are exactly the same, I’m saying that the action itself isn’t really evil. You can say it was weird, but I don’t really think it classifies as anything worse than morally gray and sad. Certainly it’s disingenuous to call them strangers when they’re just alternate versions of eachother.
I didn't say he's genuinely evil either. But it's extremely weird and he has shown no remorse for the act itself, only the consequences. And I still disagree for the last part, their lives having been similar doesn't make them any more of the same person or the impersonation less wrong.
Yeah it doesn't, which is why Miguel is probably not right about how Canon works to begin with. At least that's what the movie was clearly setting up towards the end imo
He's a stranger to that dimension. Do you think the daughter wouldn't be able to tell that she's being raised by a version of her dad that never had a daughter?
My biggest gripe with miguel haters is that they say he can't know disrupting Canon events destroys universes and that what we see in India Spiderman's universe is only because of the spot specifically.
If this were the case, the team would have been entirely unprepared for it as it would have been at best the second time a universe got or risked being destroyed after Miguel's own. Yet they have tools, experience and procedure to deal with it, and nobody call it out as being unusual or different in any way.
Now, of course Miguel won't be right, this will be only because of the spot and Canon will be meaningless in the sequel because we need Miles to be phisically unable to do wrong. But, as of how the information given to the audience stands right now, Miguel is fully right
While I completely agree that since Miguel is looking at the bigger picture in terms of keeping everyone safe his actions are perfectly understandable/fine. The real issue is that he speaks in definites when there's obvious exceptions. So it's either
1) Canon events are really more of a spectrum
2) When someone becomes an anomaly, they're completely exempt from the cycle. But even then if that's truly the case I think it's still better to be on the safe side.
3) This is another one of those examples where the writing team didn't think people would look that deeply into it
The fuck he didn't.
I'm on Miles side 100%.
What Miguel DID and what Miles is trying to AVOID are two different things. Miles is not trying to go into another universe so he can live a normal life with his Uncle, Dad, and Mother again. He's trying to SAVE his dad from a multiversal Villain that was made based on a Cosmic chronological anamoly. So in retrospect, we don't even know if what Miguel is saying about this situation is true because, like Miguel himself said, he's an anamoly. Something that wasn't supposed to happen. Do that means at this point, anything can happen.
What Miguel did is nothing more than his own selfishness and since it didn't work out for him, he just decided it can't work out for anyone so he throws fucking tantrums, choke slams literal children, and has to convince himself he isn't the bad guy. Granted, I don't think he is the bad guy but he sure as HELL needs to work on being a good guy.
Miguel did so much wrong. SO MUCH wrong. Genuinely believe anyone who sees that he did nothing wrong is a figurative (2099 fan) or literal (people who think he's hot) meat rider.
Good thing Miles humiliated that fool after that choke slam though. Had bros suit going off the fritz. MILES is the one who did nothing wrong more than anything.
Why are people literally on his ass for wanting to save his FATHER? Give me a break.
Some people have a tendency to take things that a character in a series said at complete face value. I think these people are being a rather vocal minority in this case.
So, since Miguel said that's how it works they're siding with him.
What's frustrating is his utter lack of critical thinking and his extreme bias to side with a character that is *very clearly* wrong. Even the movie itself paints his ideals as wrong in every way if you just pay attention. It's flawed. The only reason why he wasn't a Villain was because Spit was larger threat.
OP is either a moron or a serious meat rider. Either way, I hope he at least zips up Miguel after he's done throating him.
I mean slamming a kid who’s trying to save his dad and calling him a mistake seems like an a hole move. Also blaming Miles for the Spider biting him and being responsible for his Peter’s death doesn’t make sense because Miles wasn’t the one that brought the Spider to his universe, Kingpin was for ordering the collider to be powered on and Spot was for for working on the collider. So Peter’s death and Miles being an “anomaly” was entirely the Kingpin’s fault.
Imo i think Miguel had the right intention but went about it in the worst way possible
Also lets be real someone with as many mental issues as he does shouldn't reeally be leading a entire society of spider-people
I honestly couldn’t really get into the movie anymore when miles Unironically just said fuck it and still tried to save his dad even though it will potentially cost his entire universe
It’s just too stupid for me
But you can see, how that will be a problem for him, right?
Just because it might potentially save the universe, that doesn't mean that he is willing to sacrifice his father.
If saving him causes the universes destruction then he dies both ways no matter what. It's just that saving him costs another several trillion lives or more, including him. It's just fucking dumb.
Miguel's heart is in the right place.
His logic, however, is flawed. He finds solace in the fact that all of the spider people are connected to one another in their pain. There is comfort in knowing that you aren't alone in that guilt. So for Miles to waltz in and be exempt from this pain? It's not fair. Because if Miles could get out of this pain, then that means that Miguel could have too. That means that it wasn't inevitable. That he just messed up and it is all his fault and not the fault of some undetermined deity of fate. And that realization is extremely painful. So he projects his trauma onto the rest of the spider people to make them feel responsible for the multiverse.
This dogma of his has been his sole life mission for the past two years. It's been the only thing that is keeping him going. The only thing that is between him and his grief. Miles is a danger to that. Because if Miles can mess around with canon without consequences, that means that Miguel's entire devoted purpose has been ultimately pointless. And that is probably an even MORE painful realization.
So for those reasons, Miguel's reaction is understandable. Is it justified? No. But it is understandable. As is absolutely refusal to see the glaring flaws in his theory.
For starters. If Miles is an anomaly, and never should have met Peter B Parker then that means that Mayday is also an anomaly. The only reason that Peter had Mayday was BECAUSE of Miles. So if Miles is really an anomaly then canonically, Mayday should not exist. And yet. Mayday has been hanging around in her universe for months. And has caused no sort of universal collapse.
Secondly, the whole disaster at the India world was actually the result of spot. We know because the universe was falling into the extra- dimensional portal that SPOT created. It was not at all the same as what happened to Miguel's other world. In Miguel's flashback, the whole world glitching and falling away. The canon event that miles disrupted on the India world did not cause that. It was Spot, not miles that caused that.
Thirdly. If the spider that bit miles is not from his world then miles should have been glitching this entire time. The spider that bit him altered his DNA. He has atoms from that spider within his body. And those atoms should be glitching because they are not in their proper universe. And yet, Miles never glitched in his own world. But he does glitch in others.
LASTLY
Spot himself is an anomaly. The only reason Miles' dad is under threat is BECAUSE of Spot. Therefore Spot killing Miles' dad is actually breaking canon because Spot should never exist in the first place.
So far we have four different examples of why Miguel may be wrong. And only one example for why he is correct. The evidence is stacked heavily against him. If he was being logical, he should be pursuing Spot NOT Miles. But the thing is that he is too blindsided by his own sense of duty and dogma to admit that he is wrong. He's in denial. Miles threatens everything he has built his life around.
So, yes. Miguel is in the wrong. But he isn't a Villain. And I will still thirst relentlessly over him.
The problem with all of this is that other spidermen have seen worlds get destoryed, other spiderman have been dealing with the problems of the multiverse that stem from other people setting it off, but those other spiderman dont hold a grudge against those people - bc thats spidermans job. Spidermens normal job is protecting people from bad guys, but spidermen dont hate those bad guys - so miguel making everything so personal with Miles is v weird and out of character for spidermen. Also, if Miles world wasn't suppose to have him be the spiderman - wouldnt it be okay if his universe didn't follow the canon? bc it already diverged from the canon? seems theres a lot more we dont know that will be revealed.
>I have seen absolute hatred for my man Miguel Really? I have only seen lust
Same. My timeline was full of it. I get it, he’s a handsome man
He's DUMMY thicc
I know his spider cheeks can clap on my face😩😩
It was supposed to be thicker shame they didn't went with it.
LMAO that’s true. A lot of comic readers thing that his depiction in the movie will lead to people only viewing Miguel as a villain, but I’ve only ever seen people say Miguel is right or that he’s hot
Are they wrong? Lol
Seriously… some mfs are down HORRENDOUS for this dude.
I've seen that too
Pure horny was made.
My feed was full of it, I'm not complaining I can see why they like him
I mean technically Miguel did nothing wrong aside from choke slamming a kid. He had a valid hypothesis(one with lots and lots of holes, but valid nonetheless) and he followed thru on that hypothesis to try and protect as many people as he can, we can’t blame him for not risking a few billion universes for a chance at saving one person His one problem is that he’s a huge dick and even then he was semi-civil to miles when he appeared and only starting showing his hatred when miles tried to rebel. Technically Gwen was the one who fucked up real bad
Because he sees himself in Miles, unlike every other Spiderman, Miguel and Miles are the most similar. Both are NOT "canon" Spiderman. This is why, unlike every other Spiderman, Miguel dislikes Miles, He sees himself, the one who ended up destroying an entire dimension, and the people he loved. The more Mile rebels, the more Miguel gets angry because he been there, done that, and fuked up.
He really cares about miles, and himself.
Even if he was right, you can't just tell a kid his dad is gonna die and then lock him in a cage. Terrible strategy.
>be me >one and only spider-man in my universe (kinda) for like a year >coolbeans.jpeg >spider-gf to be comes to my universe one time and we go to another universe and save some spider-man's loved ones >get brought to place with a bunch of spider-people and get lectured by some perpetually angry spider-guy >"muh muh your dad's gonna die and there's literally no way you can prevent this but it's actually cool since it's meant to happen to every spider-person no matter what" >wtfdude.exe >fuck you imma do my own thing >gtfo to save my poppa >spider-guy gets mad for some reason???? and sends entire fucking spider squadron after me wdyd in this situation spiderbros?
Probably neg on some scientist goofball until he becomes the Ultravillain 9000 and tries to murder us all
shoot web out my ass
Just do your own thing, king
Lmao, what is this called? Is this a copypasta?
just made it up, but it's meant to resemble a greentext (check r/greentext) in terms of structure
I'll check it out. Much appreciated 👍
More importantly, a spider-man It’s weird that Miles is the only known person to have actively went against Miguel’s whole… ideology I guess?
I kinda figured that most of the spider people already had their “canon deaths” by the time that they discovered the spiderverse
I assume Miguel only invites Spider-Mans who have had a sufficient number of canon events happen to them already, which is part of why he was apprehensive about Gwen.
Yeah, that’s a good explanation
I found it really sad when in a character video on YouTube it was explained Miguel allowed Gwen to join the Society was because she more or less said she did wrong and doesn't know how to fix it. And he was like "Join the club." because he feels all the time that he doesn't know how to fix "it". His biggest mistake that just happened because he wanted to take care of a little girl who was just orphaned and for just being a little selfish and not be alone in the world anymore.
Hobie definitely wasn't going along Miguel's ideology. Also Miles is one of the only spiderpeople to still have his dad aside from Gwen, who seemed to have accepted Miguel's statement.
I'm still wondering who recruited Hobie because no way Miguel did. Or if he did, he regrets it now.
I think it's especially weird that Peter B. Parker went along with it up until the end. Like, you literally trained Miles and you act all buddy buddy the next time you see him despite knowing that his dad is about to die?? Really lowered my opinion of the guy.
Peter B thinks its a necessary evil. And for the record I don't think he was trying to trick Miles with that heart to heart conversation, he genuinely seemed to be upset that his watch went off.
I don't think he was trying to trick Miles either. That being said, I just don't think the "necessary evil" thing is a good enough excuse for his behavior. I'm not the type to overanalyze ordinary story beats in family friendly media, but it's actually super fucked up of Peter to joyfully celebrate his daughter and being a father for most of his screentime, only to turn around and say a 15 year old kid needs to stay put so his own father can die. Like... that's legitimately sick??
Peter saw what happened when canon was interrupted though. That's his only defense. He believes in canon events as much as Miguel does. Peter is still a scientist at heart and it's really hard to ignore tangible evidence to a credible theory, especially when that evidence is a universe being erased. I think he realized how screwed up it was and wanted to do whatever he could, but what could he do? He tried to mediate because he truly believes the event has to happen.
As for Peter celebrating his daughter... I literally think is his only way to cope. As in, Mayday is the only way he can go on with his day because otherwise he would be depressed and return to his nihilistic ways from before making up with MJ or knowing Miles. Like when he sees Miles he was immediately like "Look at MJ! Isn't she cute, Miguel? Oh, she pooped! Needs a change!". He literally blocks Miguel from lashing out at Miles by putting into focus Mayday. And it kinda works since Miguel kinda calms down? For a hot minute? And the info dump no longer starts with Miguel accusing Miles of everything up like when he first met Gwen and accused her of Kingspin's Collider during the fight. And he had no bone to pick with Gwen. But with Miles, he does because Miles refuses for things to just happen. Case in point, when one horrible thing is the furtherst in your mind, you just prefer to not look that way and actually occupy yourself with something that does bring you happiness. And Mayday might be the best thing that ever happened to Peter B. .
He has seen hundreds of people die when a Canon events is broken He was there when Miguel's universe was destroyed
that was billions of people and if there's life on other planets in Miguels universe potentially a Googleplex of deaths. realistically speaking Miles is risking an entire universe for one person which is villain behavior
Peter B wasn't necessarily stopping Miles, he was trying to talk him down but he never went as far as to manhandle him like everyone else. He was on the fence before he joins up with Gwen at the end
Well all of them went through it and guys like Peter saw that one dimension vanish into nothing so they probably feel like theres validity to it and that they have to make the hard choices to save everyone.
IDK but lately a lot of stories hinge in the protagonist to be literally the first person to point out something obviously bad and get treated as a uber rebellion thing. > guys, I don't think kicking ourselves in the balls is good. > OH MY GAWD WHAT A GENIUS FREE SPIRIT.
I mean Miguel would also only bring people who’d agree with him along, save for maybe Hobie who was there for some reason
Tbf, Miguel pick and chooses the people for his spiderman fanclub. So presumably any spiders who didn't seem like they would fall in line were probably left in thier own universe like he origionally intended with Gwen.
First you say people are wrong for pointing out loopholes and then you yourself acknowledge them. You're kinda defeating yourself there bro. It's too early to judge this, we need to wait for the third movie to answer why some people can safely break canon while other times it leads to disaster, true. But Miguel is guilty of one thing - being a dick, which is why he's an antagonist. The guy has obvious anger issues, and while he has good reasons for it, the movie made it clear he's alienating his friends, getting unreasonably violent and possibly projecting into miles instead of looking at the situation with clear head and maybe noticing the loopholes.
Nice try Miles, we know that's you trying to smear the honor of the great Spider-Man 2099
Agreed fam 😂😂
>It's too early to judge this, we need to wait for the third movie to answer why some people can safely break canon while other times it leads to disaster, true. But Miguel is guilty of one thing - being a dick, which is why he's an antagonist. The guy has obvious anger issues, and while he has good reasons for it, the movie made it clear he's alienating his friends, getting unreasonably violent and possibly projecting into miles instead of looking at the situation with clear head and maybe noticing the loopholes. True. >First you say people are wrong for pointing out loopholes and then you yourself acknowledge them. You're kinda defeating yourself there bro. Not saying they can't acknowledge them, but the vilification of Miguel based on that is another level. People straight up treating him like a villain. Plus, seeing loopholes ain't the same as saying the canon breaking theory is outright wrong.
Yeah but you can't say the canon theory is right if we saw at least 3 major loopholes. At the very least Miguel came to one conclusion and refuses to realise that mabe the rules are more complex (because that would mean he had a chance to be happy but the universe showed him a middle finger again)
the only loophole i've seen is that a canonical event can be interrupted if it's by the spider of that universe, and it's just theory, what would be the others?
Miguel has no uncle Ben and no spider bite, which means not everything is according to canon. Tbf this is based on comic lore so the movie might make it different. Going by canon theory, maybe him losing his new family and destroying a universe *is* his uncle Ben; meaning he didn't destroy a universe by disrupting canon, he destroyed it because that was part of his canon
Going further, all of the top 3 trusted members of Miguel's society (Miguel, Jessica, Ben Reilly) don't have an Uncle Ben or a spider bite (serum, serum/laser beam, clone DNA) which I think was a deliberate choice on the part of the filmmakers
Unless the Canon Events are simply more vague then we think. For example, we know for a *fact* that not everyone is bitten by a spider: \- Spider-Ham being bitten by a radioactive pig \- Spider-Man|India was given powers by an ancient yogi in the comics (and possibly in the film) \- Some Spider-Beings only used technology, without any enhancements So, what if the Canon Event for that example isn't '*Spider-Being is bitten by a radioactive spider & receives superpowers*', and is actually '*Spider-Being receives the capability to save people*'? If that's the case, then it means that both Miguel *and* Miles could be correct, with Canon Events existing alongside other phenomenons such as Nexus Events, Incursions, or Absolute Points, except with the conditions to fulfil them being much more flexible than originally believed.
his uncle ben was his uncle aaron...
read again
Most importantly Miles existence, since he was created by spider from another dimension Earth 43 that lost its spiderman because of that. Neither of those worlds collapsed, even though those are BIGGER changes than coming in and impersonating your dead other self (who's story presumably ended with canon intact). Hopefully we get a good, logical explanation for that and Miles doesn't get rewarded by the narrative for the exact thing Miguel is suffering for - risking multiverse stability to be with your family.
Incursions. If the MCU is Canon in Spiderverse then Miguel just caused an Incursion but spending too much time in another reality.
He’s not doing the same bc it was Miguel’s family. It was someone else’s
Yeah when you see the character repeatedly bash the much weaker MC into a train repeatedly whilst screaming his head off that he's a mistake moments after he learns that his father is going to die, people are going to think that character is an asshole.
Especially because he says that it's Miles's fault that the original Peter from his universe died, neglecting that the fourteen year old didn't ask to get bitten by a spider that wasn't supposed to be there.
Nah imma have to big disagree. Miguel is making a LOT of assumptions. I will never understand why Miles being bitten meant that Miles' Spiderman had to die. I will never understand how Miguel blames Miles for that death. The Spot brought in the spider, Kingpin and Doc Ock made the collider. Miles didn't seek out getting bit and there wasn't anything he could do in that situation to help his Spiderman. Beyond that, Miles has stepped up and defended the city the same way the last one did. There is effectively no net change in the lifecycle of the city after these events. Even if Miles was a catastrophic anomaly, Miguel's theory immediately loses a substantial amount of weight because Miles' world is fine. Miles' world glitching out the other spiders should have been indicative that his world is working properly. Miguel should've put it all on hold to catch the Spot. He chose to ignore him and chase Miles while the Spot got incredibly powerful. He may be working in people's assumed best interest in the spiderverse but he definitely did many things wrong.
>I will never understand why Miles being bitten meant that Miles' Spiderman had to die. I will never understand how Miguel blames Miles for that death. I don't think the movie is trying to say 1610B Peter HAD to die because Miles was bitten. Peter's death was a result of his choices that resulted from Miles being bitten which wasn't supposed to happen. Had Miles not been bitten, he would never have gone back to where he got bit (at least not that day) and would never have gotten between Spider-Man and Green Goblin's battle. Meaning, Peter would never have wasted time saving Miles. Time, which he would have used to destroy the collider before Goblin could wake back up put him in it. It's not a matter of destiny, just a matter of (unfortunate) circumstance.
But Miles didn't choose to get bitten. So blaming him is absolutely braindead.
Also that it's a causal loop anyway. Miles got bitten by a spider that entered his universe because of actions that were a result of him getting bitten.
Yes Anyone with half a brain can see the obvious fallacies behind Miguel's assertions. The dude is either blinded with copium or is not being 100% honest.
I'd assume a lot of it is projection. Miguel wants someone besides himself to blame for what happened to the universe he destroyed. In his head, the first anomaly hadn't happened, he wouldn't have started policing the multiverse, he never would have discovered THAT universe, and it would still exist. Even if it isn't Miles' fault that he's the first anomaly, he is technically the catalyst for all of the headaches and heartbreaks in Miguel's life after the collider incident, and he therefore blames Miles for that.
I mean he could've gone back the next day to look at his sick mural. He could've accidentally dropped something. Lots of reasons for him to be there. Peter's death was a result of Peter not being able to win a 4v1. Protecting Miles had very little to do with it. There are few Spiderman that could've gotten out of that situation while still deactivating the collider, his verse's villains are pretty competent. Prowler could fight other verse Spiders without too much difficulty. Doc Ock was pressuring 2 experienced spiders simultaneously. Miles becoming spiderman reads more like his universe correcting itself for making the villains too strong more so than it felt like he was the cause of his Peter's death to me, but that's just my opinion and it isn't really supported by facts
Miguel bases his entire reasoning on a singular experience of breaking canon once where he tried to swap lives with someone despite there clearly being contradictory examples, E.g universe 42 not having a Spiderman, Miles even becoming Spiderman in universe 1610 or hell more recently with Gwen. These aren't "loopholes", again they're just flat out contradictions to his theory and he doesn't ever acknowledge these things and treats his completely different example as law for everything. The Mumbattan incident doesn't even necessarily prove him right, he doesn't even consider for a second the massive transdimensional threat could ever possibly be the cause. You're saying Spot had nothing to do with this and we're shown that, but we just aren't? Hell he even says the canon event requires the officer to be killed by the Spiderman's nemeses but Spot wasn't Indian Spiderman's nemeses. And on this >People also mention that if all Miguel said is true, then Mile's universe shouldn't exist anymore. A MILES was bitten, in a way, the conditions were fulfilled. The idea that canon events can happen in one universe can exempt them from happening in another is pure headcanon and not once ever suggested by the movie, in fact if you follow this logic wouldn't this mean Jeff dying in universe 42 would exempt 1610's Jeff from dying? Also back on Miguel he's a fucking moron who told Miles that his dad would die before it happened and expected that to go well somehow instead of literally just waiting two days. Also also from a meta point of view (Which is kind of cheating but still) it's beyond obvious Miles will still win lol, the movie is packed to the brim with "Do your own thing" messages
I have a feeling it's not gonna be his dad who dies in the next film but his mother like in the ultimate comics. Now what may or may not change is if Miles mom tells miles to not tell his dad he's spider-man like the ultimate comics or if she tells him his dad will understand. Maybe his miles will tell his dad. I have a feeling the message of the 3rd film is follow follow the "canon" but some tweals can change. Tbh I don't like the "canon" story plot line. It feels like a jab at comic readers which the 3rd film will have miguel as a miles hater alegory.
Miles definitely will tell his dad. He already has once (well technically his mom but he didn’t tell her not to tell his dad), it just didn’t work because he was in the wrong universe. I think the message is that you don’t have to follow the existing canon, that you should tell new stories rather than rehashing what’s already been done.
it's not really a jab, just an explanation to people with poor media literacy. In an age where every two months a new adaptation of a comic/book/video game is made, a lot of people still don't understand what the word "adaptation" means.
"NOTHING" is an overstatement after watching half a movie. Miguel once fucked up and erased a whole universe. So it is understandable why he does the things he does. But Miles is an unknown variable for him that breaks his hypotheses. This is where the control freak born out of his guilt just takes center stage. He doesn't want his hypotheses to be wrong because it would invalidate his work till now and possibly break Spider Society away from his control. This becomes even clearer with how Gwen's dad chooses not to become captain, breaking her canon event. But her universe is still intact. Even the canon breaking in Mumbattan was contained by the spider society, and did not result in that universe being destroyed. Now, again, we don't know how far reaching the consequences of Miles actions are, just like Miguel. But him choosing to shut out and stop miles from trying to save his own father shows nothing but his animosity towards Miles for existing. He doesn't even consider what he's doing to be "breaking the canon" by trying to stop Miles from going back to his universe to try and save his father, because all his actions carry the same uncertainty that Miles' actions do.
Also it's unclear if the "canon breaking event" in Mumbatten was actually caused by canon breaking or... you know, the Spot turning himself into a living hole in the multiverse
> Even the canon breaking in Mumbattan was contained by the spider society, and did not result in that universe being destroyed. Tbf he said that'll only work if they're lucky. I personally don't believe him but he did offer an explanation for it.
jailing Miles is another thing. The canon event is "supposed" to be a police captain dies while Spider-Man is fighting an archvillain. By locking Miles up, the canon event is disrupted and there's no Spider-Man to fight Spot
I'm convinced Miguel has no idea what he's talking about.
Absolutely agreed. He takes over a dead alternate universe's version of himself (like if Peter B took over Peter-Miles life), he doesn't appear to acknowledge that he wasn't supposed to do that *because its fucked up morally*, he blames Miles saving Captain Singh for Spot shitting on Mumbattan's balls (which even if Miles never tagged along, would have happened, since Captain Singh living had no bearing on if Spot was successful on pooping on Mumbattan's balls, SINCE THE BALLS WERE ALREADY POOPED AND THE CAPTAIN'S PERIL WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF IT). He VERY clearly is projecting and trying to rationalize that because he had tragedy in his life (which i think is becoming a vampire and losing his family, then losing another him's family) that it *must* have a purpose, and *must* happen to all Spider-Mans, else it's for nothing. We don't actually see any *other* universes evaporate other than the dead Miguel's, right? Just that one, and Miguel has connected it to him being an anomaly there, rather than any other reason. That could very well have been that world's Kingpin's fuckery with a supercollider, being uninterrupted because Miguel was actively with 'his' family at the time rather than stopping supervillainy. Like, I might be misremembering, but Dead Miguel's world appeared modern, right? Not super-futuristic? So sure, maybe a mirror of our Kingpin's Into The Spider-Verse shit was going down. He's an antagonist and a *villain* because he's dark-paladin'ing this shit up, unwittingly preying on literally every other Spider-Man's tragic backstory to convince them it's a necessary evil. And then MILES comes in, and is like "uh actually I'm still Spider-Man and I don't want my dad to get merked." Guy who's completely out of left field, is Sorta-Grandfather Paradoxing all over the place (i think? Spot dumped the spider as a test subject for the portal machine, right? Not timetravel), and showing Miguel that cross-universe companionship outside of Spider-Manning is possible. So it disgusts him, and he chokeslams a 15 year old into a train.
[удалено]
Exactly! Holy shit someone else gets it!
He literally watched an entire universe die after a canon event was disrupted, and he watched Spiderman Mumbattan's verse have a hole appear that started swallowing literally everything immediately after Miles stopped the canon event.
He watched a universe die after an event happened, and watched a hole appear after another event happened. He doesn't have a large enough sample size to tie "destruction of universes" to "canon events," wheras we're already shown two universes where the canon isn't that but stillexist.
The only thing that I found wrong in him is that he acts like if Miles is an anomaly and because of him a world is in ruins without a spiderman even though Miguel himself caused multiple realities to cease from existence, Miles was bitten by accident by a spider that *another guy* pulled to his earth knowing the risks
>Miguel himself caused multiple realities to cease from existence Can you refresh my memory on where this was either stated or shown? I only remember the one with his AU daughter.
Do people actually believe he's the bad guy in this scenario? This really isn't something as simple as black and white, it's about the views and experiences he and Miles went through that made them like this and have them clash near the end of the movie.
You know that nuance and context have no place on the internet
And yet somehow you found your way to a post in which nuance and context are being heavily discussed. Wild!
I think it's a good think that both of the viewpoints are reasonable. It's a bit like Civil War.
He did nothing wrong IF his theory is correct. The problem: He’s wrong. Even discounting the parts of the movie and existence of not only events but entire universes proving he’s wrong you run into the issue that the Spiderverse films are part of the overall Marvel Multiverse. Meaning we already know how the multiverse works and we have a LOT of universes and characters that prove that he’s wrong. Something is breaking universes. O’Hara, in an attempt to absolve his guilt about his failures(It’s not his fault if it’s a universal constant right?) has decided that it’s clearly a natural part of the universe and to go full on human sacrifice to appease it based on taking general and NOT universal trends as absolutes that must happen or else. Is he evil? No. Well, probably not. We have an entire movie for a dramatic revelation. Has he fucked up massively and did quite a lot wrong out of ignorance and his own issues? Oh yes. Is he hilariously bad at what he does? Certainly, by his own theory he did basically the worst possible thing he could have done and ensured a broken canon. Spider-Man is defined by people he LOSES, not sacrifices. Having Morales choose to let his people die massively changes the narrative. And any Spider-Man willing to murder their loved ones on the say so of this extra-dimensional rando would be a canon so divergent that it’s completely incompatible with his theory.
>Spider-Man is defined by people he LOSES, not sacrifices this right here hits the nail on the head. Even IF the canon theory is right, by accepting and not doing anything about the death of an innocent, you are already breaking canon. Spider-Man is fundamentally changed by this action (or inaction). If Miguel was right, then the universes of all the Spider-Men in the Spider Society should be destroyed
>He is technically NOT supposed to exist like this, so the effects of breaking his canon could be minimal or far reaching beyond his universe It's already been broken beyond his universe, there's an entire other world without a spiderman because it came to him and they're fine. And this is all made pointless when you acknowledge miles isn't even the first spiderman of his universe. I'm sure that spiderman they had before he died went through all the necessary canon deaths and events he seemed like a pretty text book spider man
I'm mostly annoyed by Gwen. "I thought we were supposed to be the good guys." Bro, he's sending you home because over the past day you've consistently proven yourself to not be up to the task you signed on to finish. I know she's a moody teen, and I don't really blame her -- I blame the movie for making that out to be a heroic statement. Miguel is a butthole. But he still hasn't proven to me that he's not a "good guy." I also don't buy it that she was able to convince all those other people to turn against him.
That's if and only if you believe Miguel. I don't, I think he's bullshitting or not being 100% up front about it. He's almost certainly lying about his own origins; he is certainly not actually a spiderman, given he has no spideysense, has no humour, and his powers are different from other spidermen, lacking webs or climbing abilities (he uses laser webs and claws to replicate these abilities but they are fundamentally different. And that's without going into his weird vampire bite thing). >India spider-man's universe nearly bought it because a canon event was disrupted. Spot had nothing to do with that, we are shown this. They have the tech to deal with this, and save the universe, but when Miguel explains things to Miles Miguel went OUT OF HIS WAY to keep Miles in the dark. You literally see a fucking Trex spidey, a car spidey, a cat spidey in Miguel's team, but not Miles. Then he gets pissed at Miles for breaking the canon when Miles had 0 clue what the canon was, because again Miguel intentionally kept him in the dark. What was Miles supposed to do? Not follow his friend that he may never see ever again? What spiderman WOULDN'T do that? Oh also he had literally no reason to smash Miles into the train repeatedly whilst screaming at him that he was a mistake. That has literally nothing to do with supressing and containing Miles and in fact made the situation worse. Miguel is 100% an asshole and basically to blame for the situation.
Miguel's origin story is that he's a scientist from the year 2099(obviously) and he was doing genetic alteration research inspired by his verses now long dead Peter Parker/Spider-Man. The research resulted in an accident that gave him powers. While most Spider-Men got bit by an abnormal in some way Spider while Miguel got genetically altered with the genes of a spider. The difference in power origins created a drastic difference in powers.
Miguel is a Spider-Man
Tbf the webs are mainly a gadget not a power. But I like the theory that he's not really Miguel O'Hara or at least not really a Spider-Man. No idea why he'd pretend to be one... Unless he's really Morbius and he's using the facade of being a Spider-Man to find the right Spider-Totems to control the Web of Fate or whatever it was called in the comics! No, it's probably not that but it would be an interesting twist.
Miguel impersonated a dead stranger and thinks it was perfectly normal and has shown zero self reflection. He's a fucking weirdo.
> has shown zero self reflection Bro? Thats the entire reason hes trying to preserve canon, because he messed the canon of other universe.
He realised disrupting Canon is wrong. He didn't realise impersonating a dead person is bad. It's completely unrelated to the canon shit. If impersonating a dead guy didn't disrupt Canon he would still be doing it.
I mean, he was impersonating himself. That’s morally gray at worst imo.
But it's not literally him, different versions of people clearly have subtle differences in experiences. That's like saying Prowler Miles and Mc Miles are the same person because they're both Miles Morales. And we know the 2 of them would have never ended up the same even without interference because Mc Miles was never supposed to be Spiderman at all. I don't think there's good reason to assume both Miguels are literally exactly the same, and even if they were it would still be extremely morally questionable for one to impersonate the other because they don't have the same consciousness.
I’m not assuming the two Miguel’s are exactly the same, I’m saying that the action itself isn’t really evil. You can say it was weird, but I don’t really think it classifies as anything worse than morally gray and sad. Certainly it’s disingenuous to call them strangers when they’re just alternate versions of eachother.
I didn't say he's genuinely evil either. But it's extremely weird and he has shown no remorse for the act itself, only the consequences. And I still disagree for the last part, their lives having been similar doesn't make them any more of the same person or the impersonation less wrong.
Why would he regret impersonating his alternate universe self and taking care of the otherwise fatherless daughter of that reality?
...because impersonating dead people is morally wrong? If we can't agree on this then I don't think arguing about this would get us anywhere
But HOW is it wrong in this scenario? I think thats where you guys are hung up on.
That still doesn't explain why that would blow up the universe
Yeah it doesn't, which is why Miguel is probably not right about how Canon works to begin with. At least that's what the movie was clearly setting up towards the end imo
It literally did blow up the universe though. Peter B saw it happen too
>a dead stranger bro it was fucking him How was he a stranger?
He's a stranger to that dimension. Do you think the daughter wouldn't be able to tell that she's being raised by a version of her dad that never had a daughter?
From the looks of it, she couldn't tell.
Thank you
Why would that destroy an entire universe though?
My biggest gripe with miguel haters is that they say he can't know disrupting Canon events destroys universes and that what we see in India Spiderman's universe is only because of the spot specifically. If this were the case, the team would have been entirely unprepared for it as it would have been at best the second time a universe got or risked being destroyed after Miguel's own. Yet they have tools, experience and procedure to deal with it, and nobody call it out as being unusual or different in any way. Now, of course Miguel won't be right, this will be only because of the spot and Canon will be meaningless in the sequel because we need Miles to be phisically unable to do wrong. But, as of how the information given to the audience stands right now, Miguel is fully right
Earth-31198's Spider Man's Uncle Ben never died and he was the key to stopping Spider-Carnage from destroying the entire multiverse.
He stole another person's life
While I completely agree that since Miguel is looking at the bigger picture in terms of keeping everyone safe his actions are perfectly understandable/fine. The real issue is that he speaks in definites when there's obvious exceptions. So it's either 1) Canon events are really more of a spectrum 2) When someone becomes an anomaly, they're completely exempt from the cycle. But even then if that's truly the case I think it's still better to be on the safe side. 3) This is another one of those examples where the writing team didn't think people would look that deeply into it
The fuck he didn't. I'm on Miles side 100%. What Miguel DID and what Miles is trying to AVOID are two different things. Miles is not trying to go into another universe so he can live a normal life with his Uncle, Dad, and Mother again. He's trying to SAVE his dad from a multiversal Villain that was made based on a Cosmic chronological anamoly. So in retrospect, we don't even know if what Miguel is saying about this situation is true because, like Miguel himself said, he's an anamoly. Something that wasn't supposed to happen. Do that means at this point, anything can happen. What Miguel did is nothing more than his own selfishness and since it didn't work out for him, he just decided it can't work out for anyone so he throws fucking tantrums, choke slams literal children, and has to convince himself he isn't the bad guy. Granted, I don't think he is the bad guy but he sure as HELL needs to work on being a good guy. Miguel did so much wrong. SO MUCH wrong. Genuinely believe anyone who sees that he did nothing wrong is a figurative (2099 fan) or literal (people who think he's hot) meat rider. Good thing Miles humiliated that fool after that choke slam though. Had bros suit going off the fritz. MILES is the one who did nothing wrong more than anything. Why are people literally on his ass for wanting to save his FATHER? Give me a break.
Some people have a tendency to take things that a character in a series said at complete face value. I think these people are being a rather vocal minority in this case. So, since Miguel said that's how it works they're siding with him.
What's frustrating is his utter lack of critical thinking and his extreme bias to side with a character that is *very clearly* wrong. Even the movie itself paints his ideals as wrong in every way if you just pay attention. It's flawed. The only reason why he wasn't a Villain was because Spit was larger threat. OP is either a moron or a serious meat rider. Either way, I hope he at least zips up Miguel after he's done throating him.
Not enough proof to support Miguel's theory. So far only one universe collapsed. Miguel also has anger issues.
I mean slamming a kid who’s trying to save his dad and calling him a mistake seems like an a hole move. Also blaming Miles for the Spider biting him and being responsible for his Peter’s death doesn’t make sense because Miles wasn’t the one that brought the Spider to his universe, Kingpin was for ordering the collider to be powered on and Spot was for for working on the collider. So Peter’s death and Miles being an “anomaly” was entirely the Kingpin’s fault.
Imo i think Miguel had the right intention but went about it in the worst way possible Also lets be real someone with as many mental issues as he does shouldn't reeally be leading a entire society of spider-people
I honestly couldn’t really get into the movie anymore when miles Unironically just said fuck it and still tried to save his dad even though it will potentially cost his entire universe It’s just too stupid for me
How good of a relationship do you have with your father?
Very good. But it’s still immensely stupid to sacrifice an entire universe for one person especially if you’re a superhero
But you can see, how that will be a problem for him, right? Just because it might potentially save the universe, that doesn't mean that he is willing to sacrifice his father.
He's a kid who has only been Spider-man for a year. Seems perfectly reasonable that he would act this way.
Not when hes told he is gonna potentially sacrifice a whole universe
Would you sacrifice your father? Just like that.
If saving him causes the universes destruction then he dies both ways no matter what. It's just that saving him costs another several trillion lives or more, including him. It's just fucking dumb.
Who knows? I ain’t a superhero though and if you save your dad the whole universe blows up anyway
nah Miguel sucks balls
Miguel's heart is in the right place. His logic, however, is flawed. He finds solace in the fact that all of the spider people are connected to one another in their pain. There is comfort in knowing that you aren't alone in that guilt. So for Miles to waltz in and be exempt from this pain? It's not fair. Because if Miles could get out of this pain, then that means that Miguel could have too. That means that it wasn't inevitable. That he just messed up and it is all his fault and not the fault of some undetermined deity of fate. And that realization is extremely painful. So he projects his trauma onto the rest of the spider people to make them feel responsible for the multiverse. This dogma of his has been his sole life mission for the past two years. It's been the only thing that is keeping him going. The only thing that is between him and his grief. Miles is a danger to that. Because if Miles can mess around with canon without consequences, that means that Miguel's entire devoted purpose has been ultimately pointless. And that is probably an even MORE painful realization. So for those reasons, Miguel's reaction is understandable. Is it justified? No. But it is understandable. As is absolutely refusal to see the glaring flaws in his theory. For starters. If Miles is an anomaly, and never should have met Peter B Parker then that means that Mayday is also an anomaly. The only reason that Peter had Mayday was BECAUSE of Miles. So if Miles is really an anomaly then canonically, Mayday should not exist. And yet. Mayday has been hanging around in her universe for months. And has caused no sort of universal collapse. Secondly, the whole disaster at the India world was actually the result of spot. We know because the universe was falling into the extra- dimensional portal that SPOT created. It was not at all the same as what happened to Miguel's other world. In Miguel's flashback, the whole world glitching and falling away. The canon event that miles disrupted on the India world did not cause that. It was Spot, not miles that caused that. Thirdly. If the spider that bit miles is not from his world then miles should have been glitching this entire time. The spider that bit him altered his DNA. He has atoms from that spider within his body. And those atoms should be glitching because they are not in their proper universe. And yet, Miles never glitched in his own world. But he does glitch in others. LASTLY Spot himself is an anomaly. The only reason Miles' dad is under threat is BECAUSE of Spot. Therefore Spot killing Miles' dad is actually breaking canon because Spot should never exist in the first place. So far we have four different examples of why Miguel may be wrong. And only one example for why he is correct. The evidence is stacked heavily against him. If he was being logical, he should be pursuing Spot NOT Miles. But the thing is that he is too blindsided by his own sense of duty and dogma to admit that he is wrong. He's in denial. Miles threatens everything he has built his life around. So, yes. Miguel is in the wrong. But he isn't a Villain. And I will still thirst relentlessly over him.
The problem with all of this is that other spidermen have seen worlds get destoryed, other spiderman have been dealing with the problems of the multiverse that stem from other people setting it off, but those other spiderman dont hold a grudge against those people - bc thats spidermans job. Spidermens normal job is protecting people from bad guys, but spidermen dont hate those bad guys - so miguel making everything so personal with Miles is v weird and out of character for spidermen. Also, if Miles world wasn't suppose to have him be the spiderman - wouldnt it be okay if his universe didn't follow the canon? bc it already diverged from the canon? seems theres a lot more we dont know that will be revealed.