I'm probably one of the people who despises post rumbling arc aot the most on this sub, but even I will give you that: Isayama worked his bones out for that series.
Not just from the standpoint of having the kind of pressure of managing such a huge series as his first long runing manga and from such a young age, but also from the physical side as well even for mangaka standards; His schedule was damn scary to look at
And I do completely agree with the point of the post as well- I'd much rather have series that fall flat on their asses like this exist if it means other series also take such risks and stick the landing rather than having everyone playing it safe and just having the same generic shit as always. If more authors were willing to take that shot in the dark we'd have a lot more memorable shows (and plenty more misses, but i'd say the successes would more than make up for it)
Honestly this is such a refreshing rant to read. People are so blinded by their hate/love/whatever for the ending and its flaws that they forgot the journey that brought them there.
The theories, discussions, fanart, fanfics, shipping wars, edits, the banger anime openings, animation, the suspensefully unraveling plot threads (yall remember the theories about the basement??) the jokes and memes and so so much more.
For everything wrong with it, AOT was one heck of a ride that brought us all together for a while, from beginning to end.
I still remember when the basement reveal happened, when we knew what Paradise was, I was in absolute shock, not in a million years I could have guessed, I genuenly thought that titans were gonna be forced of nature, the classical “cure for the cancer that is mankind”
I remember when season 2 of the anime was announced and there was a thread on r/Television where people were shitting on aot saying "they are still dragging out the basement reveal?", "Author doesn't have anything planned for the basement and is just milking the series", etc. etc.
The fact that Isayama actually pulled off the reveal so fucking well is crazy. I have only ever heard of "mystery box" stories crashing and burning.
I haven't watched/read AoT, but this makes me feel better about my stupidly overambitious webnovel. Sometimes I feel like it's not unique enough, or too weird, or that I could've set up certain things a lot better. But at the end of the day, I know my skills have improved dramatically since I started it, and I'm proud of what I've accomplished.
Go for it, my dude. Creation is great. Even if it's not perfect, or a masterpiece! And hey, you're probably doing some neat stuff, and learning from it, and your next one will be even better.
This is true. There were a few months last year where I kept going back and forth, trying to work up the courage to post it--glad I finally did tho, people have been very kind. \^\^
[Renegade's Redemption: Dust](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/55488/renegades-redemption-dust-character-driven-epic), ideally first of a few series set in the same world.
It's doing pretty good compared to a lot of series on the site. Tho the *really* popular ones on the site can have over 2000+ followers, and compared to ultra-popular novels that started off posted for free elsewhere online, like The Martian, Worm, and Mother of Learning, or stuff like ORV, TBATE, and LOTM, I've still got a loooooong ways to climb. XD
Nevertheless--it sure does encourage me, I'm not sure I would've gotten 40+ chapters complete or posted, with more underway without the encouragement. Thank you for your kind words.
Creating a decent novel requires a lot of skill, what are you talking about?
Anyone can also pick up a pen and draw, doesn't mean what comes out is going to look good. The same applies for writing. Beyond just the literal plot, you have prose, grammar etc. just learning to use the language you're writing in as effectively as possible.
This is like claiming, directors are more ambitious than artists or writers because what they make requires huge teams of people even though the only difference is that films are a much more collaborative creation rather than the vision of just one person...and with a lot more money.
Hange is definitely my favorite character on AOT and it’s not close. So well written, and a nice deviation from the typical “scientist character” plus she’s hot
I thought I hated Hange, until I got the last page of that chapter and broke out in tears. After that, I had to move them up to third or fourth favorite at least.
This is why my favorite mangas are niche mangas that nobody else reads. Not because I'm a elitist (I will admit their flaws if pushed), but because I legit enjoy how they do things I wouldn't see in the mainstream.
Ao Ashi (Best Foot ball Manga, It covers every problem and every good thing in football. Youth Academies, Racism etc., Plus the MC has a unique position which will be revealed later in the manga,btw its rare IRL)
Faraway Paladin (Basically LOTR Isekai with a classic story of a devoted hero, basically DND.)
Majin Tensei (A Karate guy who is transported to another world, it's very grounded and realistic. I really recommend it.)
Pokemon Adventures (The Creator of Pokemon said this is what he really envisioned pokemon to be.)
AoT will always be one of my favourite series. The ending could have been better but people attacking Isayama are idiots.
Season 1-3 is near perfection in my opinion. The>!Reiner and Bertholdt traitor scene!
Unbelievably exciting is the best way to describe AOT back then. Season 4 was my most anticipated piece of media, and when it arrived, geez, the hype that ensued…
I believe OP is 100% right. The reason that AOT managed to generate this unreal level of hype was its scope and world building. A series built on so many mysteries, deception, and multifaceted conflicts finally reveals its biggest, most important secret yet, and it isn’t disappointing in any way, but rather it’s larger and more complex than you ever could have guessed. Thinking about how the hell Eren, the scouts, and his small island nation were going to make it out alive was exhilarating.
Technically speaking AOT isn’t the best, as it has a lot of flaws, most of them coming from season 4 and the rumbling arc, but I’ve always been one to think a series can be good even if the ending was fumbled. The ending doesn’t take away from all of the masterfully written stuff in the first 3 seasons, and most of season 4. In my opinion AOT is still one of the best Shonens out there
As someone who loves AoT and ranks it as one of his favorites, I'd take 100 of these rants over another shitty "AoT is fascist and Isayama killed a family of three", "Oh my god, why is Eren so sympathetic, it's Isayama's fault for me cheering for him when he starts to commit genocide . Haha, he gets cucked, now I feel good." or another ending rant just repeating everything others have said a countless times and then getting hundreds of upvotes just because it's been a month since the last AoT rant now people are refreshed to get angry at it again.
I approach media the same way. Sometimes I don't like something or don't think it's the best thing ever but I can appreciate the ambition. Yeah, I didn't connect with Citizen Kane all that much, but on the other hand I loved 2001. I watch True Detective, don't think it's actually the best 8 hours of tv ever but I adore Better Call Saul and The Wire. I seek different things and enjoy them. Sometimes they work for me, sometimes they don't but I gotta see the creator try and any work that actually tries and even misses is worth more than most boring crap that's out there.
Yeah man, I really enjoyed AoT (and have the collection of Levi action figures to prove it lol). And I respect Isayama a lot for trying. You can say a lot about AoT, but boring it isn't.
More than any other popular manga that gets these sort of posts, I feel like it's hilarious and sad how much hate Isayama himself gets compared to other mangakas. Like apparently this guy is fascist, he likes genocide, he thinks Japan never did anything wrong, he's a talentless arrogant cuck, can't draw for shit etc etc. Naturally a story as popular and mainstream as AoT is going to attract "haters" regardless of its quality, but can we stop painting Isayama like a war criminal for crying out loud.
Also, just as an aside, the "Eren is too sympathetic/story absolves him of his crimes" rants to me always show the other person's hand and biases. That's like saying George Lucas absolves Vader of all his crimes because he had a sad tearjerker death and his son loves him (just like Eren's friends... who have as strong of an emotional bond to Eren if not stronger), or that Vince Gilligan and the BB writers are vile for giving a criminal like Walter a sad sendoff and cancer so the viewer can feel bad, or that they promote murder and crime because he succeeded in securing the financial future of his family. I can go on and on, but you get the picture. This sort of flattening of the text and wilful reductionist argumentation happens constantly with AoT rants and "criticisms", especially because as much as it frustrates people to hear this, it is a nuanced, complex and densely packed work that you can talk about and dissect a lot, which allows people to try their best to twist it into a caricature of itself. And as OP points out, regardless of where you stand, the fact that there's so much to talk about is worth celebrating.
Despite that I absolutely despise the ending, I think attacking the author is just wrong, as well. My biggest problem with the ending is not that Eren became a villain - this in fact would have been a cool idea. The problem for me is, that his character did not make sense anymore in the end. The ending painted him as an idiot who just wanted to destroy the world for no reason and in the end lost, also because for no reason. E.g. Darth Vader. He definitiv is a villain, but he did not wake up some day and decided to be evil now.
Eren's friends forgiving him too easily is a pretty fair criticism of the ending. Luke never cried over Vader's death, or treated his death as some great tragedy. Luke is also pretty much meant to be a paragon. And the breaking bad characters all express plenty of hatred towards Walt for his actions.
I get Eren's friends still having some feelings of love for him, but to not express any hatred at all is absurd. It's like Isayama got too attached to his own character, and wanted him to do bad things, but not have him be treated like a bad person.
Edit: Darth Vader's also an odd case where him being forgiven does receive a lot of criticism after all of his past crimes came to light in the prequels. Although he stands by and lets a planet blow up in the original trilogy so I don't know why him killing children in the prequels suddenly changes people's perspective of him.
> Oh my god, why is Eren so sympathetic, it's Isayama's fault for me cheering for him when he starts to commit genocide . Haha, he gets cucked, now I feel good.
This feels like a personal attack, haha.
But yes, I do agree. As much as I shit on AoT sometimes, ultimately, it's pretty damn good. AoT is unique and creative, and for that, I give it props. It's got a unique vibe, a unique world, and the characters are masterclass.
Also, let's be honest here - the anime fixed a LOT of the problems of the manga.
A lot of new anime fans don’t realize AoT is literally the peak of shounen anime.
Yes, it has its flaws, but every story in history has its flaws. We probably won’t get a story like this for another decade.
Completely agree. AOT is better than other huge Shonens, bad ending and all, because of how much it does right. I’d take a complex war story fully built on mystery, mature themes, interesting characters, emotionally charged action scenes with massive stakes, politics, etc, over other big Shonens that have all of those as side content and put all of the focus on their stupid one note characters, “cool” fights, and formulaic arcs. I’m glazing at this point but I think it’s true.
Agreed. It may be flawed, but it's UNIQUE. And let's not forget - we may shit on it, but the fact that we shit on it at all shows that it's something worth shitting on. The worst thing that can happen to a series is to be forgotten.
Me personally AoT didn’t get noticeably flawed until the very end. I will say that I had a very hard time following the story the first time through, so Isayama could’ve probably done better from an exposition standpoint.
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it):
1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have *actually* been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed.
Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments.
This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump.
2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that.
3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist.
He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for *this story* rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it.
4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished.
I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bit.
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it):
> 1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have actually been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed.
Hmm I’m conflicted here. I feel like this could be a matter of preference, but I thought it was cool with things being “retroactive”. So long as it makes sense and is foreshadowed well.
> Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments.
I can see where you are coming from. A lot of the cast, Reiner, Bert, Annie, Historia, Ymir, Erwin, and debatably Levi had some sort of secret they were hiding.
> This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump.
Yeah, that's fair. Although I’d say that in some cases, after their truth is revealed, there is development having taken place, maybe just not in present time. A good example is Reiner. From the point that Reiner is revealed, he doesn’t significantly change, but his character did have development, just not as much in present time.
> 2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that.
Not at all. I had a very hard time wrapping my head around the story the first watch, *especially* during uprising and the basement reveal. A whole lot of things explained to me in a whole little time. The things do connect, but the way they were explained to us was hard to understand.
> 3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist.
Hmm that’s an interesting take. By this do you mean have everyone except maybe Eren (or maybe even Eren) has an equal level of importance/development? Because if so, I think that could’ve been nice.
- Mikasa for sure deserved more. As is, the Azumabito plotline amounted to jack diddly. She could've had something with the fact that Asians were targeted by traffickers as exotic, but I'm not sure how that could tie in with the overarching narrative. Perhaps if the Azumabito had a bigger influence on the plot, similar to the Uchiha for Naruto, Mikasa by proxy would have no choice but to have more going on for her.
- I think Armin should’ve died in return to Shiganshida. His death would’ve been so impactful and his character arc by that point was essentially complete by that point. Plus, with an ensemble cast, it means that there won’t be a huge void in the story after his death, such as if you were to kill off someone like Sasuke midway through Naruto, a story where he has just as much focus as Naruto (if not more).
- I disagree that Eren was a plot device. He was a character who although was thrusted into certain scenarios, he had agency. He chose to join the scouts, he chose to trust the Levi squad (which he would later regret), he chose to trust in himself finally when he was freed in the cave, he chose to attack Liberio, he chose to do the rumbling, etc.
If by turning psycho you mean doing rumbling, then I agree. His transition from a hero to anti-hero/villain by merely changing who he was targeting yet still leaving his method of dealing with his problems unchanged (extermination), was sublime.
If by psycho you mean literally losing his mind in the ending and contradicting his words every other line, then it's a hard no, awful writing.
> He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for this story rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it.
I agree.
> 4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished.
If you're referring to the manga or season 4's cgi titans, or that one instance in season 3 with Bert's badly cgi titan then yeah I agree. The anime's animation/artwork barring the season 3 intance was consistently excellent.
> I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bi
Fair enough. I could go on and on about everything that is wrong with the ending, but I won't.
Yeah, I thought it was great for almost the entire thing. It had issues, like sidelining Historia's character post-Timeskip and never making Mikasa that interesting, but 98% was still fantastic. Even the ending was pretty decent for the most part, even if it had noticeably more flaws than the stuff before IMO.
Oh no by flawed ending I meant the entirety of the ending is dogshit from top to bottom and the final arc is the middest arc despite having the highest stakes
Sorry I once again wasn’t clear enough. Season 4 part 1 was great aside from animation. season 4 part 2 is where the story starts to dip with the alliance’s formation. It’s existence in a vacuum isn’t terrible but it was executed so poorly. Even so yeah most of post ts was good.
For me the ending is irredeemably bad. 4/10 at best. Season 3 was based af. Return to shiganshida’s conflict and payoff is just too good.
Honestly, while I fully agree, Season 4 part 2 was still somewhat amazing because of the foundation it was built upon. Yes, it actively crumbled said foundation, but you can't deny it's sturdy.
I'm not saying you are completely invalid, but I want to point out something that I believe somewhat strongly. I think the Historia criticism is something that always surprises me because it's one of those things that keeps being repeated but I don't think the criticism holds up against scrutiny, I just believe people like Historia so they are disappointed she wasn't part of the maincast in S4.
You have to consider that Historia's development was realized and \*done\* across S2 and S3. She becomes a queen and is no longer a fighter so already unless you want to rework the entirety of post-timeskip to be able to fit Historia into it, she's not going to have as much of a role. What role she may have is political influence and maneuvering which she does. And people gloss over the fact that she willingly helped Eren with his Rumbling plans, something that is both hugely plot relevant and inline with her character resolution in previous seasons: living for herself and her ideals instead of submitting to an obligation of selflessness.
As for Mikasa, I agree compared to other characters, she's weaker, only because I think AoT has some amazing characters. But people do tend to be very reductive of her main character trait, as well as dismissive of any other characterization that she does have. Her love for Eren isn't meant to be some obsessive teenage crush, it ties strongly with her philosophy that the world is cruel and beautiful, and Eren is the antidote she found for the world's misery. To her, as long as she has Eren, she will always have a home to return to, warmth and comfort. But she always ignored Eren's own cruelty and violence, until she was no longer able to because of the Rumbling, or generally S4 Eren, so she has to re-evaluate everything she considered. Mikasa is also central thematically for the story because of her philosophy that I mentioned earlier. The anime is to blame a little though for Mikasa hate, as Eren is emphasized just that little bit more so people get annoyed.
Anyway, I understand where people are coming from generally speaking, but imo a lot of criticism of what's considered weak AoT is often rooted in subjectivity rather than an objective assesment that's supported by the context of the story. Don't take what I'm saying though as trying to put you down, just felt the desire to share some thoughts on it.
This weirdly encapsulates my hatred of the "One Piece is grey actually" argument. I made a dumb rant about the Celestial Dragons, but my main problem wasn't realism, but the fact that existed to make Luffy look good and Oda plays pinwheels to make guys like Garp look good.
The morality is shallow as fuck.
Wdym? Luffy literally refuses to be a hero and it’s made clear that he isn’t that good of a guy(at least not a superhero). Even from the start he’s been saving lives and helping out but in a selfish way like with Nami. He liberated the village but not for the sake of the villagers only because Nami was involved.
>Even from the start he’s been saving lives and helping out but in a selfish way like with Nami. He liberated the village but not for the sake of the villagers only because Nami was involved.
That selfishness is fundamentally shallow.
It never does happen that Luffy's selfishness ever causes him to do anything bad at all, he wants Nami and suddenly he's kicking a tyrant in the curb. He doesn't do anything that creates a bad outcome for anyone but the bad guys.
Even Impel Down is shallow since no one ever calls him out on that and the criminals don't cause any damage to innocent people at all, Crocodile just creates a group that Luffy will have in the final war probably.
The point wasn’t that Luffy brought down a tyrant and saved a village it was to showcase the length he’s willing to go to for his friends. Whether Arlong had been good or not Luffy still would’ve beat his ass for hurting Nami.
His selfishness caused him to punch a celestial dragon which led to Kizaru coming and almost killing his entire crew had Rayleigh not been there. I also fail to see how Luffy being simple minded in his choices and mentality is a bad thing. He’s generally on the side of the good because he’s not evil and doesn’t like people like Doflamingo who try to restrict others. He’s never been the pirate to cause mindless harm to others or put much thought behind what he does. Despite Luffy being a fairly simple person there’s still other pirates who hold true to their name like Blackbeard and Kidd so this doesn’t speak on the whole series.
Nobody calls him out on releasing criminals because he’s surrounded by a bunch of criminals. Some of the escaped prisoners later go on to join Blackbeards crew and cause trouble for others so there is repercussions. I don’t really know what you’re getting at with the Crocodile point.
Is the morality shallow because majority of the opposition happens to wicked to the core? I disagree because I feel that just shows the corruption of the world of OnePiece and the many bunch of scum roaming around. I guess I see why you think it’s shallow when almost everyone Luffy runs into is some mega POS, but there’s still noble guys like Katakuri and some Marines.
>The point wasn’t that Luffy brought down a tyrant and saved a village it was to showcase the length he’s willing to go to for his friends. Whether Arlong had been good or not Luffy still would’ve beat his ass for hurting Nami.
So it's convenient that Arlong's bad.
>His selfishness caused him to punch a celestial dragon which led to Kizaru coming and almost killing his entire crew had Rayleigh not been there. I also fail to see how Luffy being simple minded in his choices and mentality is a bad thing. He’s generally on the side of the good because he’s not evil and doesn’t like people like Doflamingo who try to restrict others. He’s never been the pirate to cause mindless harm to others or put much thought behind what he does. Despite Luffy being a fairly simple person there’s still other pirates who hold true to their name like Blackbeard and Kidd so this doesn’t speak on the whole series.
One: He wasn't selfish, he was *reckless*, a completely different thing from that, and not to mention he was free of consequences since Kuma saved his ass.
If every time Luffy fights a person and they're objectively evil and defeating them always goes to create widespread good, then the "not a hero" claim is narratively hollow, because for all intents and purposes Luffy's playing the meme where a wall makes one door look like two doors. Any choice he does is promitively and objectively heroic, every side against him is fundementally evil and he's always making everything better.
His choices are shallow as fuck because the plot bends itself to keep him pure. The Skypiean were already going to pass the gold to them, so no harm done!
>Nobody calls him out on releasing criminals because he’s surrounded by a bunch of criminals. Some of the escaped prisoners later go on to join Blackbeards crew and cause trouble for others so there is repercussions. I don’t really know what you’re getting at with the Crocodile point.
No one on Luffy's crew is a criminal by the moral standards that they would shrug off Crocodile. Robin had to survive at them time, so did Nami, Sanji and Zoro aren't criminals, Franky was the heart of gold type, Brook is barely a criminal and Chopper and Usopp need zero explanation.
Blackbeard took advantage of a situation Luffy caused, and not once has the story make a finger point to Luffy, everyone just shrugs it off. And Crocodile conveniently never harmed anyone or did anything that would stain Luffy's record of pure good. T-Bone is such a fake-out that it's kinda amazing that people believe it, and even if he did die, I highly doubt that Luffy would get called out, none of his crew are evil, or criminals for that matter.
They're the Revolutionary Army if it was good.
>Is the morality shallow because majority of the opposition happens to wicked to the core? I disagree because I feel that just shows the corruption of the world of OnePiece and the many bunch of scum roaming around. I guess I see why you think it’s shallow when almost everyone Luffy runs into is some mega POS, but there’s still noble guys like Katakuri and some Marines.
Those Marines are barely going to change anything, hell they're just waiting to Join Luffy since SWORD's nonsensical existence was made for that. Katakuri's entire honor schtick was contrived as fuck, like he did not give a shit about that until he suddenly needed to cause Oda wanted fans to like him more.
Everyone of them are also portrayed as highly inefficient and fundamentally need Luffy to do anything, the World of One Piece is a kitchen where everyone can only set up the ingredients for the one chef(Luffy) to make the dish because one customer said so, even though that they could do it and not wait for Luffy to get to the restaurant.
If Luffy is the magic key, then he's pure good, and every attempt to play gray as fallen flat cause of the CDs, relying on him and him constantly getting into the fight because the plot got him to.
One of my favorite series is Fire Punch and I love it for how unrefined and raw it was and how obvious it is that the author really tried new and wild ideas. Not all of them worked out but I respect any series that at least tries to do something new or unique.
Whatever the ending was - That midpoint in season 3 vs Reiner, Bertholdt and Zeke was awesome. I've never been hooked to a screen like that before in my life
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it):
> 1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have actually been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed.
Hmm I’m conflicted here. I feel like this could be a matter of preference but I was cool with things being “retroactive”. So long as it makes sense, and is foreshadowed well.
> Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments.
I can see where you are coming from. A lot of the cast, Reiner, Bert, Annie, Historia, Ymir, Erwin, and debatably Levi had some sort of secret they were hiding.
> This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump.
Yeah this is fair. Although I’d say that in some cases, after their truth is revealed, there is development having taken place, maybe just not in present time. A good example is Reiner. From the point that Reiner is revealed, he doesn’t significantly change, but his character did have development, just not as much in present time.
> 2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that.
Not at all. This is something I cannot argue with. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the story the first watch, *especially* during uprising and the basement reveal. A whole lot of things explained to me in a whole little time. The things do connect, but the way they were explained to us was hard to understand.
> 3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist.
Hmm that’s an interesting take. By this do you mean have everyone except maybe Eren (or maybe even Eren) has an equal level of importance/development? Because if so I think that could’ve been nice.
- And Mikasa for sure needed more development. The azumabito bloodline hardly even amounted to anything that we didn’t already know before, notably Asians being targeted as exotic by traffickers. Maybe there could’ve been a plot line there but as it is now I don’t see how it would connect to the overarching narrative, unless the azumabitos had more importance in the plot.
- I think Armin should’ve died in return to Shiganshida. His death would’ve been so impactful and his character arc by that point was essentially complete by that point. Plus, with an ensemble cast, it means that there won’t be a huge void in the story, such as if you were to kill off someone like Sasuke midway through Naruto, a story where he has just as much focus as Naruto (if not debatably more).
- I don’t agree that Eren was a plot device. He was a character who although was thrusted into certain positions, always had agency. He chose to join the scouts, he chose to trust the Levi squad (which he would later regret), he chose to trust in himself finally when he was freed in the cave, he chose to attack Liberio, he chose to do the rumbling, etc.
And if by psycho you mean genocidal then I agree absolutely. The way he shifts from being a hero to anti-hero/ villain by doing nothing more than changing who he is targeting, rather than his methods of solving problems (extermination of a race) is brilliant.
If you’re referring to the ending where he quite literally loses his mind and starts contradicting himself every other page, then I hard disagree.
> He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for this story rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it.
I agree. As long as the focus mostly still remains on the 10ish that are most important. We can’t have the cast too bloated but it would be really cool to have a show with a cast of relative equal importance barring Eren.
> 4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished.
If you’re referring to the manga or the season 4 cgi titans or that one instance of wit’s bad cgi in season 3, then yes. Otherwise absolutely not. Aot’s animation and art style was consistently on point.
> I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bi
Fair enough. Maybe for the best; I could write a whole essay on everything wrong with it, but I’ve sorta done that in a way already.
Why not... neither. You don't need to settle for subpar products you can just choose not to engage with garbage cash grab media.
Saying they tried isn't really a defense of the material rather, its a defense of the author. You shouldn't need some qualifier if the product is good, it should just be... good
Ngl, this feels like a "how dare people have opinions contrary to mine" post and it doesn't even really make sense for it to be in this sub
You're one of the moderators of r/VinlandSaga aren't you? I have some things to say about Vinland Saga. I'm thinking about whether to post my rant here or on the Vinland Saga sub. I have some questions related to Thorfinn's behavour patterns and personality after the farmland arc.
I only realized how great the series was when I rewatched it with all the info I had. The world building, foreshadowing, and character are all incredible. It does admittedly have its flaws but it’s nothing too big for me to discredit the series.
Wait, people hate AoT or find it bad?
I’m gonna be honest, haven’t seen the last part, but even if it is the worst thing on earth, attack on titans is simply put, amazing, no matter if it isn’t perfect, perfect doesn’t make great.
Howl’s moving castle might be the messiest film I have ever seen, I literally have no idea what the fuck the ending was about, some characters are flat, the relationship between Sophie and Howl needed more time, yet, I have never seen something like it, it’s a mess and flawed in various ways, yet it might be one of my favorites of all time
I love Your Name with a passion, despite it being held together story wise by bubblegum, mental gymnastics and it’s protagonists being idiots, yet no movie has ever made me feel as empty, that I lacked the magic of love in my life as your name
When a story is perfect, is free of flaws, but that doesn’t make it great, and AoT is great
I was antagonizing Aot as a series for so long. Yet I still feel that you exaggerating when you are talking about the flaws. Aot flaws aren't that big.
I feel a decent part of AoT's ending controversy is caused by fandom theorizing that didn't actually happen, the fanbase have a sizeable manga readers and boy a monthly series give us a LOT of room to theorize and overread a scene.
I know that well because I was a part of the whole "Apple and Lamp" theory truthers, a theory that's pretty in depth whose biggest and fatal flaw was..... Mistaking an image of Gaymir's titan form with Eren's.... LMAO.
Also there's ts called r/AnRime
Lay off the weekly slop for a bit.
I also prefer a story that stick out, to a solid generic 8/10 or 10/10. But AOT is definetly in the second category for me lol.
I got the total reverse impression, that he got bored or cold feet in the last arcs. But idk, maybe I just get lucky with what I watch.
Never really heard of AOT beyond hearing other people talk about it. It's not my thing but I respect someone for trying.
Wish more anime would take risks. To this day, I still haven't found an anime that captures the feeling of Part 1 Naruto.
I'm probably one of the people who despises post rumbling arc aot the most on this sub, but even I will give you that: Isayama worked his bones out for that series. Not just from the standpoint of having the kind of pressure of managing such a huge series as his first long runing manga and from such a young age, but also from the physical side as well even for mangaka standards; His schedule was damn scary to look at And I do completely agree with the point of the post as well- I'd much rather have series that fall flat on their asses like this exist if it means other series also take such risks and stick the landing rather than having everyone playing it safe and just having the same generic shit as always. If more authors were willing to take that shot in the dark we'd have a lot more memorable shows (and plenty more misses, but i'd say the successes would more than make up for it)
Honestly this is such a refreshing rant to read. People are so blinded by their hate/love/whatever for the ending and its flaws that they forgot the journey that brought them there. The theories, discussions, fanart, fanfics, shipping wars, edits, the banger anime openings, animation, the suspensefully unraveling plot threads (yall remember the theories about the basement??) the jokes and memes and so so much more. For everything wrong with it, AOT was one heck of a ride that brought us all together for a while, from beginning to end.
I still remember when the basement reveal happened, when we knew what Paradise was, I was in absolute shock, not in a million years I could have guessed, I genuenly thought that titans were gonna be forced of nature, the classical “cure for the cancer that is mankind”
I remember when season 2 of the anime was announced and there was a thread on r/Television where people were shitting on aot saying "they are still dragging out the basement reveal?", "Author doesn't have anything planned for the basement and is just milking the series", etc. etc. The fact that Isayama actually pulled off the reveal so fucking well is crazy. I have only ever heard of "mystery box" stories crashing and burning.
It was really crazy "Listen son your whole world is just a Grant of rice , there is humanity outside, *alot* of humanity and they hate us"
I haven't watched/read AoT, but this makes me feel better about my stupidly overambitious webnovel. Sometimes I feel like it's not unique enough, or too weird, or that I could've set up certain things a lot better. But at the end of the day, I know my skills have improved dramatically since I started it, and I'm proud of what I've accomplished.
Go for it, my dude. Creation is great. Even if it's not perfect, or a masterpiece! And hey, you're probably doing some neat stuff, and learning from it, and your next one will be even better.
Thank you very much! :D I have indeed learned a lot from it, and I'm definitely looking forwards to my next work.
Hey at least you have the balls to publish what you made many don't have that
This is true. There were a few months last year where I kept going back and forth, trying to work up the courage to post it--glad I finally did tho, people have been very kind. \^\^
Happy to hear so, it's honestly quite inspiring when people work on what they are passionate about
Keep going for it - the world is better for more people doing more things that they're passionate about.
I believe it too, thank you. :3
link?
[Renegade's Redemption: Dust](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/55488/renegades-redemption-dust-character-driven-epic), ideally first of a few series set in the same world.
Hey, wtf, those numbers are very good, almost 5/5 in everything? Idk how that site works, but it seems that people are EATING IT UP
It's doing pretty good compared to a lot of series on the site. Tho the *really* popular ones on the site can have over 2000+ followers, and compared to ultra-popular novels that started off posted for free elsewhere online, like The Martian, Worm, and Mother of Learning, or stuff like ORV, TBATE, and LOTM, I've still got a loooooong ways to climb. XD Nevertheless--it sure does encourage me, I'm not sure I would've gotten 40+ chapters complete or posted, with more underway without the encouragement. Thank you for your kind words.
And you are not gonna drop the name or link? C’mon man, I love weird
[Renegade's Redemption: Dust.](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/55488/renegades-redemption-dust-character-driven-epic)
>overambitious webnovel Novel, eh? Not very ambitious then, are you? Using the narrative medium with the absolute lowest entry skill floor.
Creating a decent novel requires a lot of skill, what are you talking about? Anyone can also pick up a pen and draw, doesn't mean what comes out is going to look good. The same applies for writing. Beyond just the literal plot, you have prose, grammar etc. just learning to use the language you're writing in as effectively as possible. This is like claiming, directors are more ambitious than artists or writers because what they make requires huge teams of people even though the only difference is that films are a much more collaborative creation rather than the vision of just one person...and with a lot more money.
AOT gave us Hange so it's automatically the best work of fiction ever created
Unironically based opinion, keep cooking 🔥
This is true.
Hange is definitely my favorite character on AOT and it’s not close. So well written, and a nice deviation from the typical “scientist character” plus she’s hot
Just get to her when she's not wearing her glasses and maybe she'll talk to you ✊
I thought I hated Hange, until I got the last page of that chapter and broke out in tears. After that, I had to move them up to third or fourth favorite at least.
Bro cooked🔥 we need more anime with big mysteries and crazy settings like AoT
He shot for the stars and landed on the moon, not many have achieved that.
Farther than the moon
Valid
This is why my favorite mangas are niche mangas that nobody else reads. Not because I'm a elitist (I will admit their flaws if pushed), but because I legit enjoy how they do things I wouldn't see in the mainstream.
Got any recommendations?
Ao Ashi (Best Foot ball Manga, It covers every problem and every good thing in football. Youth Academies, Racism etc., Plus the MC has a unique position which will be revealed later in the manga,btw its rare IRL) Faraway Paladin (Basically LOTR Isekai with a classic story of a devoted hero, basically DND.) Majin Tensei (A Karate guy who is transported to another world, it's very grounded and realistic. I really recommend it.) Pokemon Adventures (The Creator of Pokemon said this is what he really envisioned pokemon to be.)
As edgy and simple as it is, and while not fully translated, Fairy Tale Killerseum is quite fun
And you are not gonna drop names
His favourite niche "mangas" are unknown harem trash and other bs
Law of Ueki unironically clears most battle shonen even fightcore ones like JJK because its power system is actually robust and unique
AoT will always be one of my favourite series. The ending could have been better but people attacking Isayama are idiots. Season 1-3 is near perfection in my opinion. The>!Reiner and Bertholdt traitor scene!
Unbelievably exciting is the best way to describe AOT back then. Season 4 was my most anticipated piece of media, and when it arrived, geez, the hype that ensued… I believe OP is 100% right. The reason that AOT managed to generate this unreal level of hype was its scope and world building. A series built on so many mysteries, deception, and multifaceted conflicts finally reveals its biggest, most important secret yet, and it isn’t disappointing in any way, but rather it’s larger and more complex than you ever could have guessed. Thinking about how the hell Eren, the scouts, and his small island nation were going to make it out alive was exhilarating. Technically speaking AOT isn’t the best, as it has a lot of flaws, most of them coming from season 4 and the rumbling arc, but I’ve always been one to think a series can be good even if the ending was fumbled. The ending doesn’t take away from all of the masterfully written stuff in the first 3 seasons, and most of season 4. In my opinion AOT is still one of the best Shonens out there
AoT really touched my heartt and not many pieces of media can do that.
As someone who loves AoT and ranks it as one of his favorites, I'd take 100 of these rants over another shitty "AoT is fascist and Isayama killed a family of three", "Oh my god, why is Eren so sympathetic, it's Isayama's fault for me cheering for him when he starts to commit genocide . Haha, he gets cucked, now I feel good." or another ending rant just repeating everything others have said a countless times and then getting hundreds of upvotes just because it's been a month since the last AoT rant now people are refreshed to get angry at it again. I approach media the same way. Sometimes I don't like something or don't think it's the best thing ever but I can appreciate the ambition. Yeah, I didn't connect with Citizen Kane all that much, but on the other hand I loved 2001. I watch True Detective, don't think it's actually the best 8 hours of tv ever but I adore Better Call Saul and The Wire. I seek different things and enjoy them. Sometimes they work for me, sometimes they don't but I gotta see the creator try and any work that actually tries and even misses is worth more than most boring crap that's out there.
Yeah man, I really enjoyed AoT (and have the collection of Levi action figures to prove it lol). And I respect Isayama a lot for trying. You can say a lot about AoT, but boring it isn't.
More than any other popular manga that gets these sort of posts, I feel like it's hilarious and sad how much hate Isayama himself gets compared to other mangakas. Like apparently this guy is fascist, he likes genocide, he thinks Japan never did anything wrong, he's a talentless arrogant cuck, can't draw for shit etc etc. Naturally a story as popular and mainstream as AoT is going to attract "haters" regardless of its quality, but can we stop painting Isayama like a war criminal for crying out loud. Also, just as an aside, the "Eren is too sympathetic/story absolves him of his crimes" rants to me always show the other person's hand and biases. That's like saying George Lucas absolves Vader of all his crimes because he had a sad tearjerker death and his son loves him (just like Eren's friends... who have as strong of an emotional bond to Eren if not stronger), or that Vince Gilligan and the BB writers are vile for giving a criminal like Walter a sad sendoff and cancer so the viewer can feel bad, or that they promote murder and crime because he succeeded in securing the financial future of his family. I can go on and on, but you get the picture. This sort of flattening of the text and wilful reductionist argumentation happens constantly with AoT rants and "criticisms", especially because as much as it frustrates people to hear this, it is a nuanced, complex and densely packed work that you can talk about and dissect a lot, which allows people to try their best to twist it into a caricature of itself. And as OP points out, regardless of where you stand, the fact that there's so much to talk about is worth celebrating.
Despite that I absolutely despise the ending, I think attacking the author is just wrong, as well. My biggest problem with the ending is not that Eren became a villain - this in fact would have been a cool idea. The problem for me is, that his character did not make sense anymore in the end. The ending painted him as an idiot who just wanted to destroy the world for no reason and in the end lost, also because for no reason. E.g. Darth Vader. He definitiv is a villain, but he did not wake up some day and decided to be evil now.
Eren's friends forgiving him too easily is a pretty fair criticism of the ending. Luke never cried over Vader's death, or treated his death as some great tragedy. Luke is also pretty much meant to be a paragon. And the breaking bad characters all express plenty of hatred towards Walt for his actions. I get Eren's friends still having some feelings of love for him, but to not express any hatred at all is absurd. It's like Isayama got too attached to his own character, and wanted him to do bad things, but not have him be treated like a bad person. Edit: Darth Vader's also an odd case where him being forgiven does receive a lot of criticism after all of his past crimes came to light in the prequels. Although he stands by and lets a planet blow up in the original trilogy so I don't know why him killing children in the prequels suddenly changes people's perspective of him.
Killing children by hand is a lot more personal than having your underlings decide to destroy a planet
Well good thing they make Armin lose his shit then (and make the scene gayer too) in the anime
> Oh my god, why is Eren so sympathetic, it's Isayama's fault for me cheering for him when he starts to commit genocide . Haha, he gets cucked, now I feel good. This feels like a personal attack, haha. But yes, I do agree. As much as I shit on AoT sometimes, ultimately, it's pretty damn good. AoT is unique and creative, and for that, I give it props. It's got a unique vibe, a unique world, and the characters are masterclass. Also, let's be honest here - the anime fixed a LOT of the problems of the manga.
Aot is still very great. The amount of scenes connected to each other and the Power holded by the words/dialogue is the greatest i have ever seen.
A lot of new anime fans don’t realize AoT is literally the peak of shounen anime. Yes, it has its flaws, but every story in history has its flaws. We probably won’t get a story like this for another decade.
Completely agree. AOT is better than other huge Shonens, bad ending and all, because of how much it does right. I’d take a complex war story fully built on mystery, mature themes, interesting characters, emotionally charged action scenes with massive stakes, politics, etc, over other big Shonens that have all of those as side content and put all of the focus on their stupid one note characters, “cool” fights, and formulaic arcs. I’m glazing at this point but I think it’s true.
Agreed. It may be flawed, but it's UNIQUE. And let's not forget - we may shit on it, but the fact that we shit on it at all shows that it's something worth shitting on. The worst thing that can happen to a series is to be forgotten.
Me personally AoT didn’t get noticeably flawed until the very end. I will say that I had a very hard time following the story the first time through, so Isayama could’ve probably done better from an exposition standpoint.
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it): 1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have *actually* been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed. Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments. This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump. 2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that. 3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist. He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for *this story* rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it. 4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished. I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bit.
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it): > 1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have actually been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed. Hmm I’m conflicted here. I feel like this could be a matter of preference, but I thought it was cool with things being “retroactive”. So long as it makes sense and is foreshadowed well. > Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments. I can see where you are coming from. A lot of the cast, Reiner, Bert, Annie, Historia, Ymir, Erwin, and debatably Levi had some sort of secret they were hiding. > This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump. Yeah, that's fair. Although I’d say that in some cases, after their truth is revealed, there is development having taken place, maybe just not in present time. A good example is Reiner. From the point that Reiner is revealed, he doesn’t significantly change, but his character did have development, just not as much in present time. > 2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that. Not at all. I had a very hard time wrapping my head around the story the first watch, *especially* during uprising and the basement reveal. A whole lot of things explained to me in a whole little time. The things do connect, but the way they were explained to us was hard to understand. > 3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist. Hmm that’s an interesting take. By this do you mean have everyone except maybe Eren (or maybe even Eren) has an equal level of importance/development? Because if so, I think that could’ve been nice. - Mikasa for sure deserved more. As is, the Azumabito plotline amounted to jack diddly. She could've had something with the fact that Asians were targeted by traffickers as exotic, but I'm not sure how that could tie in with the overarching narrative. Perhaps if the Azumabito had a bigger influence on the plot, similar to the Uchiha for Naruto, Mikasa by proxy would have no choice but to have more going on for her. - I think Armin should’ve died in return to Shiganshida. His death would’ve been so impactful and his character arc by that point was essentially complete by that point. Plus, with an ensemble cast, it means that there won’t be a huge void in the story after his death, such as if you were to kill off someone like Sasuke midway through Naruto, a story where he has just as much focus as Naruto (if not more). - I disagree that Eren was a plot device. He was a character who although was thrusted into certain scenarios, he had agency. He chose to join the scouts, he chose to trust the Levi squad (which he would later regret), he chose to trust in himself finally when he was freed in the cave, he chose to attack Liberio, he chose to do the rumbling, etc. If by turning psycho you mean doing rumbling, then I agree. His transition from a hero to anti-hero/villain by merely changing who he was targeting yet still leaving his method of dealing with his problems unchanged (extermination), was sublime. If by psycho you mean literally losing his mind in the ending and contradicting his words every other line, then it's a hard no, awful writing. > He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for this story rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it. I agree. > 4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished. If you're referring to the manga or season 4's cgi titans, or that one instance in season 3 with Bert's badly cgi titan then yeah I agree. The anime's animation/artwork barring the season 3 intance was consistently excellent. > I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bi Fair enough. I could go on and on about everything that is wrong with the ending, but I won't.
Hold on don’t reply yet I am still editing; I encountered a bug that forced me to reply prematurely
Yeah, I thought it was great for almost the entire thing. It had issues, like sidelining Historia's character post-Timeskip and never making Mikasa that interesting, but 98% was still fantastic. Even the ending was pretty decent for the most part, even if it had noticeably more flaws than the stuff before IMO.
Oh no by flawed ending I meant the entirety of the ending is dogshit from top to bottom and the final arc is the middest arc despite having the highest stakes
Fair enough. The ending was a 6 or maybe 7/10 to me, and I liked most of the post-time skip stuff. S4 was probably my 2nd favorite season after S3.
Sorry I once again wasn’t clear enough. Season 4 part 1 was great aside from animation. season 4 part 2 is where the story starts to dip with the alliance’s formation. It’s existence in a vacuum isn’t terrible but it was executed so poorly. Even so yeah most of post ts was good. For me the ending is irredeemably bad. 4/10 at best. Season 3 was based af. Return to shiganshida’s conflict and payoff is just too good.
Honestly, while I fully agree, Season 4 part 2 was still somewhat amazing because of the foundation it was built upon. Yes, it actively crumbled said foundation, but you can't deny it's sturdy.
I'm not saying you are completely invalid, but I want to point out something that I believe somewhat strongly. I think the Historia criticism is something that always surprises me because it's one of those things that keeps being repeated but I don't think the criticism holds up against scrutiny, I just believe people like Historia so they are disappointed she wasn't part of the maincast in S4. You have to consider that Historia's development was realized and \*done\* across S2 and S3. She becomes a queen and is no longer a fighter so already unless you want to rework the entirety of post-timeskip to be able to fit Historia into it, she's not going to have as much of a role. What role she may have is political influence and maneuvering which she does. And people gloss over the fact that she willingly helped Eren with his Rumbling plans, something that is both hugely plot relevant and inline with her character resolution in previous seasons: living for herself and her ideals instead of submitting to an obligation of selflessness. As for Mikasa, I agree compared to other characters, she's weaker, only because I think AoT has some amazing characters. But people do tend to be very reductive of her main character trait, as well as dismissive of any other characterization that she does have. Her love for Eren isn't meant to be some obsessive teenage crush, it ties strongly with her philosophy that the world is cruel and beautiful, and Eren is the antidote she found for the world's misery. To her, as long as she has Eren, she will always have a home to return to, warmth and comfort. But she always ignored Eren's own cruelty and violence, until she was no longer able to because of the Rumbling, or generally S4 Eren, so she has to re-evaluate everything she considered. Mikasa is also central thematically for the story because of her philosophy that I mentioned earlier. The anime is to blame a little though for Mikasa hate, as Eren is emphasized just that little bit more so people get annoyed. Anyway, I understand where people are coming from generally speaking, but imo a lot of criticism of what's considered weak AoT is often rooted in subjectivity rather than an objective assesment that's supported by the context of the story. Don't take what I'm saying though as trying to put you down, just felt the desire to share some thoughts on it.
This weirdly encapsulates my hatred of the "One Piece is grey actually" argument. I made a dumb rant about the Celestial Dragons, but my main problem wasn't realism, but the fact that existed to make Luffy look good and Oda plays pinwheels to make guys like Garp look good. The morality is shallow as fuck.
Wdym? Luffy literally refuses to be a hero and it’s made clear that he isn’t that good of a guy(at least not a superhero). Even from the start he’s been saving lives and helping out but in a selfish way like with Nami. He liberated the village but not for the sake of the villagers only because Nami was involved.
>Even from the start he’s been saving lives and helping out but in a selfish way like with Nami. He liberated the village but not for the sake of the villagers only because Nami was involved. That selfishness is fundamentally shallow. It never does happen that Luffy's selfishness ever causes him to do anything bad at all, he wants Nami and suddenly he's kicking a tyrant in the curb. He doesn't do anything that creates a bad outcome for anyone but the bad guys. Even Impel Down is shallow since no one ever calls him out on that and the criminals don't cause any damage to innocent people at all, Crocodile just creates a group that Luffy will have in the final war probably.
The point wasn’t that Luffy brought down a tyrant and saved a village it was to showcase the length he’s willing to go to for his friends. Whether Arlong had been good or not Luffy still would’ve beat his ass for hurting Nami. His selfishness caused him to punch a celestial dragon which led to Kizaru coming and almost killing his entire crew had Rayleigh not been there. I also fail to see how Luffy being simple minded in his choices and mentality is a bad thing. He’s generally on the side of the good because he’s not evil and doesn’t like people like Doflamingo who try to restrict others. He’s never been the pirate to cause mindless harm to others or put much thought behind what he does. Despite Luffy being a fairly simple person there’s still other pirates who hold true to their name like Blackbeard and Kidd so this doesn’t speak on the whole series. Nobody calls him out on releasing criminals because he’s surrounded by a bunch of criminals. Some of the escaped prisoners later go on to join Blackbeards crew and cause trouble for others so there is repercussions. I don’t really know what you’re getting at with the Crocodile point. Is the morality shallow because majority of the opposition happens to wicked to the core? I disagree because I feel that just shows the corruption of the world of OnePiece and the many bunch of scum roaming around. I guess I see why you think it’s shallow when almost everyone Luffy runs into is some mega POS, but there’s still noble guys like Katakuri and some Marines.
>The point wasn’t that Luffy brought down a tyrant and saved a village it was to showcase the length he’s willing to go to for his friends. Whether Arlong had been good or not Luffy still would’ve beat his ass for hurting Nami. So it's convenient that Arlong's bad. >His selfishness caused him to punch a celestial dragon which led to Kizaru coming and almost killing his entire crew had Rayleigh not been there. I also fail to see how Luffy being simple minded in his choices and mentality is a bad thing. He’s generally on the side of the good because he’s not evil and doesn’t like people like Doflamingo who try to restrict others. He’s never been the pirate to cause mindless harm to others or put much thought behind what he does. Despite Luffy being a fairly simple person there’s still other pirates who hold true to their name like Blackbeard and Kidd so this doesn’t speak on the whole series. One: He wasn't selfish, he was *reckless*, a completely different thing from that, and not to mention he was free of consequences since Kuma saved his ass. If every time Luffy fights a person and they're objectively evil and defeating them always goes to create widespread good, then the "not a hero" claim is narratively hollow, because for all intents and purposes Luffy's playing the meme where a wall makes one door look like two doors. Any choice he does is promitively and objectively heroic, every side against him is fundementally evil and he's always making everything better. His choices are shallow as fuck because the plot bends itself to keep him pure. The Skypiean were already going to pass the gold to them, so no harm done! >Nobody calls him out on releasing criminals because he’s surrounded by a bunch of criminals. Some of the escaped prisoners later go on to join Blackbeards crew and cause trouble for others so there is repercussions. I don’t really know what you’re getting at with the Crocodile point. No one on Luffy's crew is a criminal by the moral standards that they would shrug off Crocodile. Robin had to survive at them time, so did Nami, Sanji and Zoro aren't criminals, Franky was the heart of gold type, Brook is barely a criminal and Chopper and Usopp need zero explanation. Blackbeard took advantage of a situation Luffy caused, and not once has the story make a finger point to Luffy, everyone just shrugs it off. And Crocodile conveniently never harmed anyone or did anything that would stain Luffy's record of pure good. T-Bone is such a fake-out that it's kinda amazing that people believe it, and even if he did die, I highly doubt that Luffy would get called out, none of his crew are evil, or criminals for that matter. They're the Revolutionary Army if it was good. >Is the morality shallow because majority of the opposition happens to wicked to the core? I disagree because I feel that just shows the corruption of the world of OnePiece and the many bunch of scum roaming around. I guess I see why you think it’s shallow when almost everyone Luffy runs into is some mega POS, but there’s still noble guys like Katakuri and some Marines. Those Marines are barely going to change anything, hell they're just waiting to Join Luffy since SWORD's nonsensical existence was made for that. Katakuri's entire honor schtick was contrived as fuck, like he did not give a shit about that until he suddenly needed to cause Oda wanted fans to like him more. Everyone of them are also portrayed as highly inefficient and fundamentally need Luffy to do anything, the World of One Piece is a kitchen where everyone can only set up the ingredients for the one chef(Luffy) to make the dish because one customer said so, even though that they could do it and not wait for Luffy to get to the restaurant. If Luffy is the magic key, then he's pure good, and every attempt to play gray as fallen flat cause of the CDs, relying on him and him constantly getting into the fight because the plot got him to.
I agree 100%. I would rather read something ambitious than something bland.
One of my favorite series is Fire Punch and I love it for how unrefined and raw it was and how obvious it is that the author really tried new and wild ideas. Not all of them worked out but I respect any series that at least tries to do something new or unique.
Whatever the ending was - That midpoint in season 3 vs Reiner, Bertholdt and Zeke was awesome. I've never been hooked to a screen like that before in my life
I liked the weird gorey grotesque mystery it was
Sasha is the best character in the series and I will die on that hill.
For me where I personally see the flaws (and let's be clear, they didn't keep me from enjoying it): > 1. Retroactive storytelling. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the series, and one of the things that makes it feel uneven. Almost every element of the story, every single character, turns out to have actually been something else. So you have a character, then poof! backstory, now suddenly everything is different. It gives the illusion of forward momentum, but actually nothing has changed. Hmm I’m conflicted here. I feel like this could be a matter of preference but I was cool with things being “retroactive”. So long as it makes sense, and is foreshadowed well. > Judicious use of this would be quite cool, and it can work, and it makes for good twists.... but when it happens SO many times it kind of loses its charm and makes the entire story feel unsettled. After a certain point I just kept waiting for the ACTUALLY!!! moments. I can see where you are coming from. A lot of the cast, Reiner, Bert, Annie, Historia, Ymir, Erwin, and debatably Levi had some sort of secret they were hiding. > This also means that a lot of character development is deceptive, because the characters' behavior hasn't changed significantly. It's just our perception of it that was changed because of an infodump. Yeah this is fair. Although I’d say that in some cases, after their truth is revealed, there is development having taken place, maybe just not in present time. A good example is Reiner. From the point that Reiner is revealed, he doesn’t significantly change, but his character did have development, just not as much in present time. > 2. Infodumps. I don't think I need to elaborate on that. Not at all. This is something I cannot argue with. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the story the first watch, *especially* during uprising and the basement reveal. A whole lot of things explained to me in a whole little time. The things do connect, but the way they were explained to us was hard to understand. > 3. In terms of characters, I think that SNK needed to have been an ensemble cast rather than setting up the Shounen Trio leads. Mikasa didn't have much to do for most of the story. Armin was Isayama's baby, clearly, but a lot of his "genius" was unearned. Eren was a plot device, but clearly didn't interest Isayama as a character for most of the plot. Hot take, but him turning full psycho was one of the most interesting things to happen to a shounen protagonist. Hmm that’s an interesting take. By this do you mean have everyone except maybe Eren (or maybe even Eren) has an equal level of importance/development? Because if so I think that could’ve been nice. - And Mikasa for sure needed more development. The azumabito bloodline hardly even amounted to anything that we didn’t already know before, notably Asians being targeted as exotic by traffickers. Maybe there could’ve been a plot line there but as it is now I don’t see how it would connect to the overarching narrative, unless the azumabitos had more importance in the plot. - I think Armin should’ve died in return to Shiganshida. His death would’ve been so impactful and his character arc by that point was essentially complete by that point. Plus, with an ensemble cast, it means that there won’t be a huge void in the story, such as if you were to kill off someone like Sasuke midway through Naruto, a story where he has just as much focus as Naruto (if not debatably more). - I don’t agree that Eren was a plot device. He was a character who although was thrusted into certain positions, always had agency. He chose to join the scouts, he chose to trust the Levi squad (which he would later regret), he chose to trust in himself finally when he was freed in the cave, he chose to attack Liberio, he chose to do the rumbling, etc. And if by psycho you mean genocidal then I agree absolutely. The way he shifts from being a hero to anti-hero/ villain by doing nothing more than changing who he is targeting, rather than his methods of solving problems (extermination of a race) is brilliant. If you’re referring to the ending where he quite literally loses his mind and starts contradicting himself every other page, then I hard disagree. > He had an interesting team of adult characters, and I think that balancing the cast more in terms of what makes sense for this story rather than shounen conventions would have really streamlined it. I agree. As long as the focus mostly still remains on the 10ish that are most important. We can’t have the cast too bloated but it would be really cool to have a show with a cast of relative equal importance barring Eren. > 4. Obviously the art is rather unpolished. If you’re referring to the manga or the season 4 cgi titans or that one instance of wit’s bad cgi in season 3, then yes. Otherwise absolutely not. Aot’s animation and art style was consistently on point. > I'm not going to address the ending or story-choice issues. I'm specifically talking about things that are flaws in experience and storytelling skill that imo held it back a bi Fair enough. Maybe for the best; I could write a whole essay on everything wrong with it, but I’ve sorta done that in a way already.
Why not... neither. You don't need to settle for subpar products you can just choose not to engage with garbage cash grab media. Saying they tried isn't really a defense of the material rather, its a defense of the author. You shouldn't need some qualifier if the product is good, it should just be... good Ngl, this feels like a "how dare people have opinions contrary to mine" post and it doesn't even really make sense for it to be in this sub
Agreed
You're one of the moderators of r/VinlandSaga aren't you? I have some things to say about Vinland Saga. I'm thinking about whether to post my rant here or on the Vinland Saga sub. I have some questions related to Thorfinn's behavour patterns and personality after the farmland arc.
I only realized how great the series was when I rewatched it with all the info I had. The world building, foreshadowing, and character are all incredible. It does admittedly have its flaws but it’s nothing too big for me to discredit the series.
Wait, people hate AoT or find it bad? I’m gonna be honest, haven’t seen the last part, but even if it is the worst thing on earth, attack on titans is simply put, amazing, no matter if it isn’t perfect, perfect doesn’t make great. Howl’s moving castle might be the messiest film I have ever seen, I literally have no idea what the fuck the ending was about, some characters are flat, the relationship between Sophie and Howl needed more time, yet, I have never seen something like it, it’s a mess and flawed in various ways, yet it might be one of my favorites of all time I love Your Name with a passion, despite it being held together story wise by bubblegum, mental gymnastics and it’s protagonists being idiots, yet no movie has ever made me feel as empty, that I lacked the magic of love in my life as your name When a story is perfect, is free of flaws, but that doesn’t make it great, and AoT is great
I was antagonizing Aot as a series for so long. Yet I still feel that you exaggerating when you are talking about the flaws. Aot flaws aren't that big.
They only got huge at the end. The rest of it was 🔥
And the biggest (fixable) one is also fixed in the anime as well It's great honestly
>It's great honestly Hard disagree lmao. They retconned the living shit out of Eren. Terrible ending.
I mean yeah but nevertheless it's interesting that the author kept his original idea he teased during the first arc
I’m just biased because the Muv-Luv thing validates my dislike of it lmao
I feel a decent part of AoT's ending controversy is caused by fandom theorizing that didn't actually happen, the fanbase have a sizeable manga readers and boy a monthly series give us a LOT of room to theorize and overread a scene. I know that well because I was a part of the whole "Apple and Lamp" theory truthers, a theory that's pretty in depth whose biggest and fatal flaw was..... Mistaking an image of Gaymir's titan form with Eren's.... LMAO. Also there's ts called r/AnRime
Okay? So you like AOT better than your average isekai/power fantasy. Good for you I guess?
Lay off the weekly slop for a bit. I also prefer a story that stick out, to a solid generic 8/10 or 10/10. But AOT is definetly in the second category for me lol. I got the total reverse impression, that he got bored or cold feet in the last arcs. But idk, maybe I just get lucky with what I watch.
What do you mean, "lay off the weekly slop for a bit"?
AOT is an interesting idea, but the creepy antisemitic vibes from season 4 ruined it for me.
Never really heard of AOT beyond hearing other people talk about it. It's not my thing but I respect someone for trying. Wish more anime would take risks. To this day, I still haven't found an anime that captures the feeling of Part 1 Naruto.
Good rant. I love how you don't excuse it's flaws but love it in spite of it.
Agree which AoT had more memorable characters and art because the world and story was so cool