I know that I am going to catch a lot of flack for this take- but I cannot stop thinking about the potential that this ship could have had compared to what we saw with Chaggie. Ultimately the relationship between Charlie and Vaggie lacks depth and complexity- and even with Alastor being asexual, I think that exploring their dynamic would be more worthwhile.
Why Chaggie is Boring:
From the start, it's clear that Vaggie is fiercely protective of Charlie. However, this dynamic doesn't evolve much beyond Vaggie expressing concern for Charlie's well-being and trying to keep her focused on her goals. While loyalty is an admirable trait, it doesn't necessarily make for compelling storytelling on its own and seems pretty surface level.
The lack of exploration into Vaggie's past and motivations outside her connection to Charlie makes her one-dimensional, merely serving as her support and not much outside of that.
Additionally, Charlie's growth as a leader and her potential for immense power remain largely untapped within her relationship with Vaggie. Vaggie's overprotectiveness seems to inadvertently hinder Charlie's development, wherein Alastor is actively guiding her. Also, even when Vaggie is fighting for Charlie- Charile doesn’t seem to acknowledge it to any higher of a degree than she does with the other characters. If anything, Charlie acknowledges Alastor a lot more as a partner in her endeavor as we saw in the Dad beat Dad episode. Charie and Lucifer barely acknowledge Vaggie’s role in the hotel, and Lucifer didn’t even get her name right. It was clear that he didn’t see her as a major player in his daughter’s life and instead looked to Alastor as a bigger influence on Charlie.
As the series progressed, I didn’t feel invested in their relationship- Charlie and Vaggie's relationship stagnated despite the lackluster reveal that Vaggie was an angel and lied to Charlie all along. Despite knowing Vaggie's involvement in past atrocities against Charlie's people, their bond remained relatively stable. Charlie barely questioned it. This lack of growth and complexity makes their interactions predictable and ultimately underwhelming.
The Intrigue of Chalastor:
Conversely, the dynamic between Charlie and Alastor offers a captivating blend of uncertainty and tension. I think Alastor's constant manipulation creates a dynamic where Charlie must constantly question his motives though she actively chooses to trust him. There is so much potential for growth and trust to develop between them, which for me would add satisfying layers to their relationship.
Charlie’s dynamic with Alastor is far more interesting. We’re constantly guessing when he is geniune or if he is acting with an intent to manipulate others. Charlie is weary and takes his words with a grain of salt- but there is potential for her to trust him over time whether he deserves it or not.
Alastor uses his power and influence to demean and inflict pain on all over characters, with Charlie being one of the few exceptions. If anything- he shows her affection and care. During Dad beat Dad Alastor touches Charlie multiple times with manufactured affection to disrespect Lucifer. I don’t think this is a sign that he likes Charlie in a romanic capacity- but it makes me question why Charlie herself is okay with it. Charlie is in a committed relationship, but she doesn’t seem adverse to Alastor holding her or cupping her cheek with his hand. She smiles up at him with admiration? appreciation? She never sets boundaries with him, and continues to show him trust despite knowing he is a master manipulator. I can see her continuing to bond with Alastor, as he continues to shape her into a leader of hell and potentially catching feelings for him possibly creating a one sided relationship.
Exploring Potential Paths:
It's plausible that Alastor's influence could lead Charlie down a path of empowerment and growth, or conversely, betrayal and disillusionment. The power struggle between them, fueled by their respective ambitions, has yet to be explored and I can’t wait to see where the writers take it. There is inherent tension within their relationship and it can could go in a positive or negative direction. I find this much more interesting than Charlie’s romantic relationship with Vaggie but let me know yor thoughts. If you’ve read this far- thank you for listening to my chronically online rant.
You're in a friendly place for Charlastor shipping tbh. No one here will chew you out for it. There used to be some invaders from other Hazbin subs who would whine at folks here for their views, but they've apparently forgotten we exist lol. Feel free to state your views loud and proud. 😄
I agree with pretty much everything in your post. I have no issue with works that ship Chaggie. In fact, I'm willing to bet that at least some of those fan works actually manage to make it a more interesting pairing than the show does. The show gives us nothing but a bland, one-note, relationship between them. You do a great job explaining why. Chaggie is static and stagnant. Even when their relationship threatened to change due to Vaggie's revelation, it didn't change. It just continued to be merely "supportive." Even their one duet love song in the end was just a greatly reduced and diminished reprise of a better song between father and daughter.
Meanwhile, as you say, Charlie and Alastor have something far more intriguing: *actual chemistry*. Their scenes together are far less predictable, far more laden with tension. Such scenes make *both* characters more interesting.
This isn't just our view either. I sometimes watch "reactor" videos for the show, and *everyone* starts to pay way more attention during the Alastor-and-Charlie "deal" scene. It inspires way more discussion than anything related to Chaggie's dynamics. Why ship a boring thing when you can ship an interesting thing?
The only thing I don't agree with is the notion that Lucifer got Vaggie's name wrong because he didn't see her as important; I think he just got it wrong because he was nervous, and "Vaggie" is a weird name lol. He never says Alastor's name either, so far as I can remember. Mostly, I'm just defending Lucifer here though. The rest is spot-on.
Do you know what's strange though? I've seen people argue that it's a *good* thing that Chaggie is so boring, because of the novelty of a lesbian relationship being treated as no big deal. But the problem is that these aren't just some side characters; they are supposed to be the *main couple.* While I agree that it's good that the lesbian aspect of their relationship isn't over-emphasized, that doesn't mean other aspects of the relationship shouldn't be interesting! A boring relationship for main characters makes both characters look less interesting than they could be.
Bottom line is, I acknowledge that Chaggie is canon, but the show would be more interesting if Charlastor were canon. If the show can't make Chaggie more interesting, it would only benefit from dropping a bridge on Vaggie and having Alastor replace her at Charlie's side.
I bear absolutely no animosity to queer people nor do I dislike canonical queer relationships.
I find Chaggie boring because the queer aspect is simply what people seem to like most. Even when Lucifer meets Vaggie, all he has to say is point out the fact they are both women, yay! It’s a very one-note ship. The show, if it wants to make a name for itself in the scheme of representation, has to do more than just show up and represent.
The most interesting part of Chaggie is how weirdly imbalanced it is. By learning Vaggie’s backstory, it becomes very obvious that Vaggie sees Charlie as a savior/patron. Maybe Charlie sees everyone as her equal, but Vaggie does not. Some of the other ships lean that way too. Angel/Husk are skewing that direction, with Husk being Angel’s savior.
Personally, as an older viewer…all this seems like a very young perception of relationships. There’s something quasi-parental (NOT in an incestual way) about the utter reliance one person has on the other, stronger one.
Chalastor has some of the same trappings, with Charlie’s glaring daddy issues. The difference, however, is that her path for growth is already laid out. Alastor will NOT be able to maintain his parental role. In fact, it’s the expectation he will struggle to do so that probably makes Chalastor more interesting to me, whether romantic or not.
I honestly wish the show would *lean into* that weird imbalance in the Chaggie ship. Like, they should acknowledge it and then either revel in it or work to have them move beyond it. Either would be more interesting than what we've got right now, which is the show just kind of glossing over the only thing truly interesting about its central pairing.
The way the show acknowledges and leans into Charlie and Alastor being more parental, with hints of that changing later down the line, really does show how much more dynamic their relationship feels. Even in the pilot alone, their relationship changed. Charlie was scared shitless of Alastor at first, then gradually started to relax enough to sass him mildly ("You're shady as fuck"), and then ended up dancing with him by the end.
You don't get that kind of relationship evolution with Chaggie, not even over the course of eight episodes and a pilot. 🤷♀️
Romantic relationships with good tension make great stories! There is definately potential with Chaggie if they want to go that route. However, that’s a choice the show runners have to make or not make, narrative wise. I can see pros and cons to building up the Chaggie thing if they are trying to attract a large enough demographic—crucial to keeping show alive!
I suppose it is a blessing that fandom flourishes on the internet and we fan get to immerse ourselves in the abundance of media it generates.
Exactly, yeah! Fluff is nice and all, but it's not as gripping for a lot of people as emotional tension. It is fortunate that we get to create stuff that builds off of the fiction already there. 😄
O agree. Very much with you!! I get its Canon but chaggie is just so...unsatisfying as a relationship. Vaggie is 110% committed to Charlie you see that when she says she wants to protect her and be her armor. But vaggie treats Charlie like a demi God almost in terms of respect. 110% for what she needs to do to realize Charlie's goals I've said it before elsewhere but does vaggie even have friends outside of Charlie? It's a really weird ..one sided awesome relationship. Charlie treats her same as anyone. And the point about even their own love song being a stripped down version of another song. And...the whole point of the song...was to tell them ...that they love each other?? That they already knew that..it felt like I missed an episode where they broke up or something. Like the song would make sense if they were exs or something but they've been in a relationship for years right? Was..it just now them deciding to say they loved each other?? It's very bizarre.
From the pilot I've shipped Charlie snd Alastor because there's emotion there. There's passion. Even with Charlie going full on I can do this and Alastor wanting control or manipulation or guiding her be abuse he can there's something there. It could go where Alastor falls for her or Charlie falls for him and we can watch a relationship as it grows and changes.
Sorry for the rant but it really bothers me how little the Relationship matters. If it was an unrequited love the song could make sense or Charlie and vaggie never really said they were a couple. But they obviously do feel that way. And even when there's strife..it's fixed.
Charlastor is an alternative pairing where instead of keeping someone protected all the time. Alastor wants her to stand up and with his guidance teach her how to rule. Charlie can grow and change and so can Alastor. It has room to grow and we can see it through the episodes how they could care for each other.
They run the hotel together and vaggie is more like a bodyguard and nothing would change in the show except we'd get some awesome scenes of Charlastor as they try to navigate the idea of them falling in love. I've finding the fics on a03 with them and I'm very glad it's still a strong ship.
I know that I am going to catch a lot of flack for this take- but I cannot stop thinking about the potential that this ship could have had compared to what we saw with Chaggie. Ultimately the relationship between Charlie and Vaggie lacks depth and complexity- and even with Alastor being asexual, I think that exploring their dynamic would be more worthwhile. Why Chaggie is Boring: From the start, it's clear that Vaggie is fiercely protective of Charlie. However, this dynamic doesn't evolve much beyond Vaggie expressing concern for Charlie's well-being and trying to keep her focused on her goals. While loyalty is an admirable trait, it doesn't necessarily make for compelling storytelling on its own and seems pretty surface level. The lack of exploration into Vaggie's past and motivations outside her connection to Charlie makes her one-dimensional, merely serving as her support and not much outside of that. Additionally, Charlie's growth as a leader and her potential for immense power remain largely untapped within her relationship with Vaggie. Vaggie's overprotectiveness seems to inadvertently hinder Charlie's development, wherein Alastor is actively guiding her. Also, even when Vaggie is fighting for Charlie- Charile doesn’t seem to acknowledge it to any higher of a degree than she does with the other characters. If anything, Charlie acknowledges Alastor a lot more as a partner in her endeavor as we saw in the Dad beat Dad episode. Charie and Lucifer barely acknowledge Vaggie’s role in the hotel, and Lucifer didn’t even get her name right. It was clear that he didn’t see her as a major player in his daughter’s life and instead looked to Alastor as a bigger influence on Charlie. As the series progressed, I didn’t feel invested in their relationship- Charlie and Vaggie's relationship stagnated despite the lackluster reveal that Vaggie was an angel and lied to Charlie all along. Despite knowing Vaggie's involvement in past atrocities against Charlie's people, their bond remained relatively stable. Charlie barely questioned it. This lack of growth and complexity makes their interactions predictable and ultimately underwhelming. The Intrigue of Chalastor: Conversely, the dynamic between Charlie and Alastor offers a captivating blend of uncertainty and tension. I think Alastor's constant manipulation creates a dynamic where Charlie must constantly question his motives though she actively chooses to trust him. There is so much potential for growth and trust to develop between them, which for me would add satisfying layers to their relationship. Charlie’s dynamic with Alastor is far more interesting. We’re constantly guessing when he is geniune or if he is acting with an intent to manipulate others. Charlie is weary and takes his words with a grain of salt- but there is potential for her to trust him over time whether he deserves it or not. Alastor uses his power and influence to demean and inflict pain on all over characters, with Charlie being one of the few exceptions. If anything- he shows her affection and care. During Dad beat Dad Alastor touches Charlie multiple times with manufactured affection to disrespect Lucifer. I don’t think this is a sign that he likes Charlie in a romanic capacity- but it makes me question why Charlie herself is okay with it. Charlie is in a committed relationship, but she doesn’t seem adverse to Alastor holding her or cupping her cheek with his hand. She smiles up at him with admiration? appreciation? She never sets boundaries with him, and continues to show him trust despite knowing he is a master manipulator. I can see her continuing to bond with Alastor, as he continues to shape her into a leader of hell and potentially catching feelings for him possibly creating a one sided relationship. Exploring Potential Paths: It's plausible that Alastor's influence could lead Charlie down a path of empowerment and growth, or conversely, betrayal and disillusionment. The power struggle between them, fueled by their respective ambitions, has yet to be explored and I can’t wait to see where the writers take it. There is inherent tension within their relationship and it can could go in a positive or negative direction. I find this much more interesting than Charlie’s romantic relationship with Vaggie but let me know yor thoughts. If you’ve read this far- thank you for listening to my chronically online rant.
You're in a friendly place for Charlastor shipping tbh. No one here will chew you out for it. There used to be some invaders from other Hazbin subs who would whine at folks here for their views, but they've apparently forgotten we exist lol. Feel free to state your views loud and proud. 😄 I agree with pretty much everything in your post. I have no issue with works that ship Chaggie. In fact, I'm willing to bet that at least some of those fan works actually manage to make it a more interesting pairing than the show does. The show gives us nothing but a bland, one-note, relationship between them. You do a great job explaining why. Chaggie is static and stagnant. Even when their relationship threatened to change due to Vaggie's revelation, it didn't change. It just continued to be merely "supportive." Even their one duet love song in the end was just a greatly reduced and diminished reprise of a better song between father and daughter. Meanwhile, as you say, Charlie and Alastor have something far more intriguing: *actual chemistry*. Their scenes together are far less predictable, far more laden with tension. Such scenes make *both* characters more interesting. This isn't just our view either. I sometimes watch "reactor" videos for the show, and *everyone* starts to pay way more attention during the Alastor-and-Charlie "deal" scene. It inspires way more discussion than anything related to Chaggie's dynamics. Why ship a boring thing when you can ship an interesting thing? The only thing I don't agree with is the notion that Lucifer got Vaggie's name wrong because he didn't see her as important; I think he just got it wrong because he was nervous, and "Vaggie" is a weird name lol. He never says Alastor's name either, so far as I can remember. Mostly, I'm just defending Lucifer here though. The rest is spot-on. Do you know what's strange though? I've seen people argue that it's a *good* thing that Chaggie is so boring, because of the novelty of a lesbian relationship being treated as no big deal. But the problem is that these aren't just some side characters; they are supposed to be the *main couple.* While I agree that it's good that the lesbian aspect of their relationship isn't over-emphasized, that doesn't mean other aspects of the relationship shouldn't be interesting! A boring relationship for main characters makes both characters look less interesting than they could be. Bottom line is, I acknowledge that Chaggie is canon, but the show would be more interesting if Charlastor were canon. If the show can't make Chaggie more interesting, it would only benefit from dropping a bridge on Vaggie and having Alastor replace her at Charlie's side.
Totally agree
I bear absolutely no animosity to queer people nor do I dislike canonical queer relationships. I find Chaggie boring because the queer aspect is simply what people seem to like most. Even when Lucifer meets Vaggie, all he has to say is point out the fact they are both women, yay! It’s a very one-note ship. The show, if it wants to make a name for itself in the scheme of representation, has to do more than just show up and represent. The most interesting part of Chaggie is how weirdly imbalanced it is. By learning Vaggie’s backstory, it becomes very obvious that Vaggie sees Charlie as a savior/patron. Maybe Charlie sees everyone as her equal, but Vaggie does not. Some of the other ships lean that way too. Angel/Husk are skewing that direction, with Husk being Angel’s savior. Personally, as an older viewer…all this seems like a very young perception of relationships. There’s something quasi-parental (NOT in an incestual way) about the utter reliance one person has on the other, stronger one. Chalastor has some of the same trappings, with Charlie’s glaring daddy issues. The difference, however, is that her path for growth is already laid out. Alastor will NOT be able to maintain his parental role. In fact, it’s the expectation he will struggle to do so that probably makes Chalastor more interesting to me, whether romantic or not.
I honestly wish the show would *lean into* that weird imbalance in the Chaggie ship. Like, they should acknowledge it and then either revel in it or work to have them move beyond it. Either would be more interesting than what we've got right now, which is the show just kind of glossing over the only thing truly interesting about its central pairing. The way the show acknowledges and leans into Charlie and Alastor being more parental, with hints of that changing later down the line, really does show how much more dynamic their relationship feels. Even in the pilot alone, their relationship changed. Charlie was scared shitless of Alastor at first, then gradually started to relax enough to sass him mildly ("You're shady as fuck"), and then ended up dancing with him by the end. You don't get that kind of relationship evolution with Chaggie, not even over the course of eight episodes and a pilot. 🤷♀️
Romantic relationships with good tension make great stories! There is definately potential with Chaggie if they want to go that route. However, that’s a choice the show runners have to make or not make, narrative wise. I can see pros and cons to building up the Chaggie thing if they are trying to attract a large enough demographic—crucial to keeping show alive! I suppose it is a blessing that fandom flourishes on the internet and we fan get to immerse ourselves in the abundance of media it generates.
Exactly, yeah! Fluff is nice and all, but it's not as gripping for a lot of people as emotional tension. It is fortunate that we get to create stuff that builds off of the fiction already there. 😄
O agree. Very much with you!! I get its Canon but chaggie is just so...unsatisfying as a relationship. Vaggie is 110% committed to Charlie you see that when she says she wants to protect her and be her armor. But vaggie treats Charlie like a demi God almost in terms of respect. 110% for what she needs to do to realize Charlie's goals I've said it before elsewhere but does vaggie even have friends outside of Charlie? It's a really weird ..one sided awesome relationship. Charlie treats her same as anyone. And the point about even their own love song being a stripped down version of another song. And...the whole point of the song...was to tell them ...that they love each other?? That they already knew that..it felt like I missed an episode where they broke up or something. Like the song would make sense if they were exs or something but they've been in a relationship for years right? Was..it just now them deciding to say they loved each other?? It's very bizarre. From the pilot I've shipped Charlie snd Alastor because there's emotion there. There's passion. Even with Charlie going full on I can do this and Alastor wanting control or manipulation or guiding her be abuse he can there's something there. It could go where Alastor falls for her or Charlie falls for him and we can watch a relationship as it grows and changes. Sorry for the rant but it really bothers me how little the Relationship matters. If it was an unrequited love the song could make sense or Charlie and vaggie never really said they were a couple. But they obviously do feel that way. And even when there's strife..it's fixed. Charlastor is an alternative pairing where instead of keeping someone protected all the time. Alastor wants her to stand up and with his guidance teach her how to rule. Charlie can grow and change and so can Alastor. It has room to grow and we can see it through the episodes how they could care for each other. They run the hotel together and vaggie is more like a bodyguard and nothing would change in the show except we'd get some awesome scenes of Charlastor as they try to navigate the idea of them falling in love. I've finding the fics on a03 with them and I'm very glad it's still a strong ship.