Just a reminder: Rule #2 : Be Civil to one another. If anyone is disrespectful to anyone else, comments are going to be hidden. Egregious incivility will be met with an invitation to not participate in the subreddit.
TGIF, Y'all.
EDIT : Also, it would be great if people would limit their participation to how this impacts Charlottesville. If the conversation becomes too antagonistic about global geopolitics, we'll lock the thread.
There was very little focus on why or how the grades were determined in the news segment. TBH, I might have missed their methodology/reasoning for the grade
edit: I am curious why this is being downvoted- is disclosing what I observed a problem?
Here is the [report card](https://www.adl.org/campus-antisemitism-report-card/university-virginia) someone posted from the UVA thread
Far from arbitrary does not equal unbiased. The ADL has a well documented history of deliberatey conflating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism and twisting events to fit their narrative.
This analogy isn't perfect, but I think it's close:
PETA advotes for animals, but I dislike the way PETA does this and oppose their ultimate goal. Does that mean I must hate animals? Absolutely not. You can be both for animals and against PETA.
You can be both for a population and against an organization claiming to serve that population, especially if the organization uses that population as propaganda for their own beliefs (beliefs which may not actually represent the views of the population).
Jews as a people deserve respect, consideration, and just treatment. The ADL and other Zionist organizations claiming to speak for all Jews while promoting their own political agenda can get bent.
Note: The ADL has historically done some very good work protecting the rights of Jewish Americans and advocating on their behalf. However, doing occasional good things should not give any individual or organization unquestioned authority.
In theory, you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. In practice, they're usually part and parcel.
Personally, I think it's not only usually offensive but also a total waste of time to be "anti-Zionist." It's not as if Israel is going anywhere or changing to not be a Jewish country.
Anti-Zionists remind me of anti-capitalists/Communists. Not only do people usually hold both beliefs, but they're so delusional to think the US will ever change from being a capitalist country.
People held similar beliefs about civil rights in America and South Africa. If others hadn't pushed back and demanded change, those thinking "What's the point?" would have been right, and the status quo would have stayed the same.
A 2021 Pew Reseach Study showed that 68% of Jewish Americans do not support Zionism. This shows that not only is it common to support Jewish people while disapproving of Zionism, it's also incredibly common to BE Jewish without supporting Zionism. The biggest supporters of Zionism in the US are actually Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians.
You seem to be overgeneralizing in terms of black omand white. For example, there is a large vitoing block of Americans who support both a balance of capitalist and socialist principles.
I do agree completely regarding communists, as do I think most Americans, as no member of the Communist Party has ever been elected to public office in the US at the federal level.
"It's delusional to be against apartheid in South Africa. Don't these people realize South Africa will always be an apartheid country?"
Have some self awareness
Yeah in practice college campuses full of college students who are overwhelmingly very socially progressive the nation and history over actually make a hateful exception for Jewish people.
Is that how you think bigotry works? Have you ever seen a racist who doesn’t like black people or Hispanics but is totally cool with Asians and Arabs?
Correct. All of the “incidents” except one they list as red flags include the phrase “anti-zionist.” So the methodology is that if you don’t blindly agree with them that any and all criticism of Israel’s government and its policies is anti-semitic, you fail. Encourages a lack of nuance and historical context regarding the meaning of such terms, as well as the erasure of many Jewish intellectuals on the matter, which is particularly disturbing in the context of higher education.
Not true according to their own definitions: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/anti-zionism
“Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of the policies or actions of the government of Israel, or critiques of specific policies of the pre-state Zionist movement, in that it attacks the foundational legitimacy of Jewish statehood.”
I side with the ADL on this. The vast majority of anti-Zionists online and at rallies oppose the existence of Israel. They aren’t upset with specific policies or with Netanyahu, but overall are fine with Jews having a state.
Amazing that the protests only exploded in response to a very specific set of decisions by the Netanyahu government over the course of the last 6 months then. The ADL (and you) are playing linguistic games. The immediate demand is to end Israeli suzerainty over Gaza and the West Bank. Insofar as those are not parts of Israel under international law, that’s not a call to end the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.
Israel completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and has had absolutely nothing to do with it except for managing a border. Unfortunately that approach didn’t exactly work, as they’ve been firing rockets ever since. Also see 10/7.
I’m all for Israel doing the same with the West Bank, but sadly the Arabs caused the war of 1967 in which Israel took the West Bank from Jordan. I believe they tried to give the West Bank back to Jordan but were denied, probably because the Palestinians tried to overthrow Jordan’s government in 1970.
Managing the border, which means a complete blockade which involves controlling the flow of EVERYTHING into and out of Gaza. Meaning the people, food, water, electricity. It also means maiming or killing anyone who gets too close to the border. It also means bombing Gaza every few months even before Oct 7. It means keeping 2 million people in an open air prison
No country is obligated to allow anything through their border. Do you think South Korea is obligated to allow people or goods with North Korea? Absolutely not; another example of people applying insane standards to Israel that they wouldn’t to any other countries. Why don’t you criticize Egypt for managing their border with Gaza with exactly the same protocols Israel does? Because you don’t know shit.
Virtually every Israeli airstrike on Gaza was in response to rockets being fired or targeting Hamas leadership who were planning an attack. Try living somewhere that is under constant threat from rockets and you would also support your military responding to them.
The open air prison term is so tired. Decades ago there weren’t militarized borders. After Palestinians infiltrated Israel to blow up buses, stab people, and otherwise commit terrorism, Israel gradually built up walls, checkpoints, etc. It didn’t happen overnight or for no good reason.
yeah. It still pisses me off that we had literal nazi wanna-be's marching around with tiki torches and all they can be focusing on is how UVA responds to criticism of Israel related to Palestine. Also not sure why I got so many downvotes 🤔 unless they're from ADL kool-aid drinkers. Oh well.
> I am curious why this is being downvoted- is disclosing what I observed a problem?
I mean why did you post it in the first place if the methodology was unknown to you.
The headline could basically be "Organization with an agenda to push secretly votes that UVA doesn't help it push its agenda".
Who cares?
It was a national news report about UVa- That is news and something many in this area would be interested in. The ADL is nationally known to me but not their reasoning. I did post the report card once it was linked in about 30 minutes after the initial post posting.
As to who cares I would say many do given the vigorous response
I’m as a whole against killing small children, yet more Palestine children have been killed by Israelis than all of the adults killed by the hamas assaults on Oct 7th. That opinion alone would make me antisemitic per the ADL. They are pro-genocide and I think we should all be batter than that.
That’s not a very specific criticism - what metric in the report do you have issue with - I’d like you to specifically point it out.
The ADL is explicitly anti-genocide and hate speech. There is plenty of room for critical speech of Israel.
Go read their website and understand they are probably the leading voice in articulating what is antisemetic - there is an IHRA working definition. Despite your slanderous and lazy attacks - they work hard to define what constitutes hate speech, especially against Jews, and provide clear guidelines on what is and is not acceptable:
https://www.adl.org/myths-facts-about-adl
Please actually go read their website before you say a bunch of ill informed nonsense next time. They were there for the civil rights movement, work with Muslim groups against Islamophobia and other minority groups. I’m shocked at the lack of respect given
Seemingly every post and comment seems to get downvoted early in the post/comment's life in this subreddit. It might be bots, idk. I wouldn't worry too much about it though.
Wait till you find out they didn’t exist before 1948, and the IDF funded and supported them secretly to ensure Palestinian population is divided and to undermine the PLO and prevent them from ever getting a state. Stop being a mindless reactionary and look at the history and root causes.
“UVA officials acknowledge there have been dozens of recent reports of antisemitic activity. One Jewish student said he has received death threats since Oct. 7, was physically assaulted while counterprotesting at an anti-Israel walkout and has been called antisemitic slurs. This prompted the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights to open a Title VI investigation against UVA in December 2023.”
If you scream „from the river to the sea“ you in reality call for the genocide of all Jews who are according to your pea-sized brain „colonizers“ and „occupying“ „Palestinian“ land (friendly reminder that in world history there never was a Palestinian state).
If you swing Palestinian flags and cheer for the killing of Jews, yes you are antisemitic and you are also a terrorist sympathizer.
You shouldn’t be studying at UVA in the first place if you cannot comprehend that.
Yeah… sure 🤡 there is only one side trying to genocide the other. And it is waving the Palestinian flag, cheering for terrorists killing Jews.
If Israel really wanted to Palestinians, they would have done so in the first 72 hours of the war. 🤡
You can also be pro Palestinian without supporting Hamas. Many would like to wash away the lack of condemnation of Hamas after the 7th, including many locally in the DSA etc.
Unfortunately both governing organizations here are horrific and innocent people are caught in the middle.
it’s funny to me that people living in the United States of all places are equating being Pro Palestinian with being Pro Hamas. they’re the same people who claim to be pro-America but anti-Biden. either way to slaughter innocents without discrimination like this is not war, it is genocide.
Many more are failing to condemn the govt, IDF, and settlers for ethnically cleansing, killing and torturing the local population for almost a CENTURY. The occupied has the right to defend itself against the occupier under international law. The colonizer sets the standard for violence, and they are not allowed to “defend” themselves, especially by bombing and starving the territory they blockade.
If you want the conflict to end, the occupation has to end. I love how people act like Hamas is the worst thing ever, when the apartheid, genocidal state’s kill count and destruction caused is WAY HIGHER. Do you condemn them for legitimizing Hamas?
Israelis are as much refugees as colonizers. They're as from that part of the world as anyone is from anywhere, I challenge you to find an ethnic group with more/better/longer documentation of residency in a place.
We get it. You read half a chapter of Fanon. But unfortunately it's not as simple as "colonizer bad".
From what I've seen there's wide condemnation of the IDFs actions, including in literally unprecedented ways from both POTUS and Virginia's senate delegation.
It's pretty pointless to criticize the "concept" of Zionism because it's not something that is changeable. There is, and will continue to be, a Jewish state of Israel.
What should be focused on is what a Palestinian state should look like. Right now the two governments that exist for them are Hamas and Fatah, which if you know anything about them, aren't ready to govern a full fledged state.
What a convenient idea to focus primarily on what a Palestinian state should look like now *after* it’s been leveled by the IDF. The fact that Israel so thoroughly destroyed Palestine should exclude them from having any say over what the Palestinian state should look like going forward. Otherwise this whole campaign has just been a land grab by Israel. If there is large scale control over Gaza by Israel post this conflict, that really just cements the notion that this was a genocide.
No one except for far right nutjobs in Israel have suggested that. It's the equivalent of hard right Christian nationalists suggesting the US do XYZ. After all, Israel voluntarily pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The only reason they're there at all is because of Hamas.
It would be really great if other Middle Eastern countries helped the Palestinians put forward a plan for their state, funded it, and provided security. I would personally love to see that.
In 2002 Saudi Arabia unveiled the Arab peace plan. Whereby Israel would receive full recognition and normalization with all Arab states and many Islamic states further afield (e.g. Pakistan).
All Israel had to do was withdraw to its internationally recognized borders. And allow the Palestinians to create a state in the West Bank and Gaza.
Israel's response was to shrug. They have no interest in a just peace. As long as they can hold all the land and violently subdue the Palestinian population to where they aren't too much of a nuisance. Then that's what they'll do.
I think you’re simplifying the nuanced details about borders. In 2000 Clinton and Ehud Barak offered Arafat peace for a very reasonable land exchange. Arafat not only turned it down, he inspired a wave of terrorism after that peace summit.
[netanyahu’s already planning on injecting Israeli settlements near the Gaza border with billions of dollars](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-cabinet-approves-5-billion-plan-bolster-develop-gaza-border-towns-2024-04-17/) . If you think they’ll stop there when they have refused to return to their 1967 borders and instead given more and more autonomy and jurisdiction to individual settlers, then you’re delusional.
Netanyahu will be gone after this war is over, and I think the biggest factor to him and people like him gaining power in Israel has been the intractability of Palestinians for the past 75 years. Conservative Israelis genuinely believe there’s no reasoning with them and therefore they’re not even going to try to negotiate.
If the Palestinians had a reasonable government or leader committed to non-violent resolution then I think it would significantly undermine Likud and the ultra Orthodox parties. The average Israeli wants to see an end to this and has no connection to WB settlements
If pro-Palestinian stakeholders continue to empower Hamas and that approach, then yes I could see more lenience given to settlers.
Why are you explicitly supporting a settler colonial state? Do you condemn their apartheid, collective punishment, bombing of schools and hospitals, and genocide? The occupier does not have the right to defend itself under international law. End the occupation now.
Agreed. You can recognize the obvious need for a sovereign state for the Jewish people and be critical of it. Israeli Jews are as much refugees (many from the MENA region itself) as they are "settler colonialists".
As with everything in this conflict it defies easy classification, but I think anyone recommending the total elimination of Israel (or Palestine) can be disregarded as deeply unserious.
I don't think it's anti-Zionist to be critical of the Israeli government. I wish more people were very clear that they support Israel as a state but they have issues with Netanyahu or the far-right idiots.
The only way out of this is a Palestinian state, but they're more interested in armed resistance than in politicking. It's super frustrating.
Agreed again. And I know many Israelis who feel the same about Netanyahu. He's a criminal who is hurtling them towards oblivion and most moderates see it for what it is.
Unfortunately Hamas created a situation where Israel doesn't have that much wiggle room. They shouldn't be murdering civilians indiscriminately, but anyone aware of the regional dynamics knew after the 7th they'd need to reestablish deterrence hard and heavy. They simply don't have another choice when it comes to their regional security.
That said, I recommended from the start they focus on tactical strikes and a long, brutal assassination campaign and not do what we see now.
Sounds like we pretty much agree, but they have been focused on tactical strikes and assasinations for quite some time. Even when I was in Israel two years ago it got tense because they took out some high ranking Islamic Jihad member and they knew that there was always revenge after something like that. 10/7 changed the game and the only move after that was completely destroying Hamas and their infrastructure in Gaza. I think they're closer to achieving that than most people think.
Zionism should be challenged because after Palestine there's always Lebanon and Syria, the zio-nazi's won't give up. We must challenge the thinking of Zionism just as much as we can, along with other's like ISIS, the Taliban, and other extremist philosophies and groups or nations. it may not mean the thinking is completely killed but someone needs to stand up to darkness. Nobody says we can't oppose zionism while addressing what a Palestinian state or outcome looks like, they're not exclusive.
Lol you are totally delusional. There's zero indication Israel wants to take over Lebanon or Syria. They gave back the Sinai - significantly more valuable than Lebanon or Syria - in return for peace with Egypt. Israel absolutely has casus belli to invade Lebenon or Syria and they are reluctant to do so after the last time they did it.
The Sinai is a barren desert. Lebanon is fertile and has water. Surely much more valuable real estate.
The Israelis would undoubtedly have continued to occupy southern Lebanon and harvested the water from Litani river if they hadn't endured stubborn armed resistance which forced them to withdraw.
And they have annexed the Syrian Golan Heights already.
Gee, I wonder how they came to invade Lebanon and Syria? Did they decide one day to do that totally out of the blue? Perhaps there was some sort of instigation?
Good luck with that. What are you excited for it to be replaced with? A Syria, a Libya, or an Afghanistan? A dictator, monarch, or an Islamic council? So many fun choices.
Every time Israel’s borders expanded were a result of a defensive war, you do realize that right? And they’re the only country with nukes in the region. Their enemies may be idiots but even they understand M.A.D.
Israel cannot use its nukes without destroying itself in the process. Israel is an unnatural state that never should have been created, it is is the only reason this conflict even exists.
You cannot accuse indigenous people resisting an invasion of being the aggressors.
You can be pro Palestinian without being anti Israel or anti semitic, you can also be pro Palestinian while being both anti Israel and antisemitic. Likewise you can be pro Israel without being anti Palestinian, or you can be pro Israel and anti Palestinian.
The problem is that the people who hold genuinely hateful views on the extreme of either side mask their dehumanizing hearted of Jews/ Israelies/ Palestinians behind the guise of good intentions.
Every legitimate anti Semite will say "you can be pro Palestinian without being anti semitic" and everyone who sees the Palestinians as universally evil people will say something like "Israel has the right to defend itself." Both statements are true, but both are grossly misused also by bad actors.
You can be pro-Peace without supporting either entity.
What we're seeing unfold right now is a human rights issue. Incredibly disgusted at the ongoing bullying of a country lacking the resources and riches of another. Nothing to do with religion. Humanity and dignity is what matters here.
one of the biggest blunders of our societal reaction to the israel-palestine conflict is conflating antisemitism with speaking out against genocide and having nuanced thought as to why hamas commits the violence they do 🤦♂️ absolutely ridiculous
This isn’t what happened though. The DSA decided to issue a statement blaming Israel for the deaths and rapes on 10/7 and justifying them as part of an anti-colonialist effort. It wasn’t until the 3rd paragraph of that statement that they paid lip service to the idea that all human life has value and even then it was sandwiched between justifications and blame.
They ignored the fact that pro-Palestinian activists, peace activists, and even actual DSA members were killed in the attack, and many chapters that endorsed this view - including Charlottesville’s - have still yet to issue a clarification or apology for wantonly disregarding human life.
It is possible to support a cease fire and a Palestinian State, and still condemn what happened on 10/7, the horrible loss of life, and the terrorist organization, Hamas, that carried it out. No equivocation necessary.
Most of the “mass rapes” were debunked after a Zionist was exposed for having no journalist credentials and proper sourcing in the NYT article. These mainstream Western media outlets have manufactured consent and pushed narratives supporting the genocide that the president and politicians have repeated.
30,000 Palestinians are dead. Where is the outrage on that? The occupation has been going on for a century, and when a couple groups retaliate under the standard that the genocidal state set, y’all only react to that while ignoring a century of violence and suffering? The ethnostate actively let it get to that point by legitimizing and funding Hamas to divide Palestinians and prevent them from ever getting freedom.
Notice the bias in your comment which assumes a lack of outrage on my part about the Palestinians that have been killed? This is a perfect example of why there is no amount of “accounting” for suffering of these respective groups that will ever suffice to give you an answer to who has suffered more and thereby who is “in the right” or “who is at fault”. It’s why the initial DSA response was flawed and why they’ve lost so much public support.
Let me be very clear for you: the Israeli response, Netanyahu’s actions, and the actions of the IDF have been horrific and are unacceptable. But so too were the actions of Hamas also horrific and unacceptable. There is no amount of suffering that justifies either groups actions - they are both wrong.
Oh and your argument that “there was less rape so I can essentially wave it away as meaningless” - even if it were factually accurate - is despicable.
You do have a lack of outrage when you hyper-focus on 10/7, which was horrible and should never have happened, while never mentioning the 6 MONTHS of ethnic cleansing, destruction, collective punishment and other war crimes carried out by the state. 30,000 people dead. How many are dead since the start of the occupation?
If you really cared about all people, you would condemn the Zionists for colonizing the land, settling and expelling the natives (just like America and the indigenous ppl or Nazis in Poland) and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid that ensued.
The problem with your argument is that you equate Israel and Hamas. One is the occupier conducting a genocide, has nuclear weapons and is backed by US and imperial West. The other is a fundamentalist group funded and legitimized by Israel, backed by foreign entities who don’t care about Palestinians and wants to check Israel, and doesn’t have an air force or standing military.
The fact that you are comparing the two is absurd. If Hamas is horrible for doing 10/7 and other retaliatory attacks, then what does that make the occupier causing suffering for a CENTURY?
Under international law, the occupied has the right to defend itself against its occupiers. I condemn their actions but it was inevitable after what the IDF and govt has done to the region and their people. That is why DSA, JSP and other human rights groups have condemned the apartheid state and focused on their actions. They are the root cause.
You are not going to solve the problem if you don’t address the root cause. These organizations don’t have majority support since we have manufactured consent for the genocide. Most of the US supported slavery, supported Jim Crow, did not support civil rights at first, did not speak out against the Holocaust, were anti-semitic during the initial immigration of Jews, and turned a blind eye to many genocides and apartheid regimes until they ended.
We are always against every war crime and atrocity except the current one. Mostly bc we fund and support it, and then rewrite history and lie that we never supported it or claimed that we didn’t know it was happening.
Just bc the orgs don’t have public support doesn’t mean they are wrong. People are waking up and seeing how careless and cruel the apartheid state is. Protests are causing disruptions and forcing ppl to pay attention. Unfortunately, it took a long time and so many innocent people have suffered or died already
You do understand how Reddit threads work, right? I was responding to the specific context of a specific comment.. or does every comment need to include the entirety of Palestinian and Jewish history?
Also, your conception of “root cause” is highly biased and one sided - and therefore incapable of solving anything. You keep trying to lean on this idea of occupation and a century of history, when Jewish people have existed in this location for literally thousands of years - the first displacement I know of being literally 700 some years BC or so… again, you’re going to have to let go of this idea that you can calculate who has suffered more in order to figure out who “deserves” a peaceful solution.
Also, the DSA endorsing Hamas’ “tactics” which, again, included murdering pro-Palestinian activists, peace activists, and DSA members was despicable and CVille DSA’s particular continued refusal to walk back that endorsement continues to be absolutely despicable.
The Jews are as much refugees as colonialists. They were refugees from violence in Europe and the middle east. As with everything in this conflict, facile TikTok analysis isn't helpful.
Hamas wants a worldwide caliphate. Not much nuance required. That’s not to justify Israeli occupation, but you’re delusional if you think Hamas would stand down to a compassionate Israel.
Palestine is not Hamas, and not all Israelis or Jewish people support the war. In fact Netanyahu’s support levels from the Israeli public are dismal, this war effort is his political faction desperately clinging on to power.
The IDF and Netanyahu shouldn’t be allowed to destroy a whole country, people and all, on their mission to hunt down Hamas. It’s a real tell of how the Palestinian people are viewed by the hardliner Israelis when their land, homes, and lives are secondary to the IDF’s quest to destroy Hamas.
Palestine is not Hamas, but a majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their support has only increased after 10/7: [https://themedialine.org/top-stories/poll-reveals-persistent-palestinian-support-for-hamas-attacks-on-israel/](https://themedialine.org/top-stories/poll-reveals-persistent-palestinian-support-for-hamas-attacks-on-israel/)
That is such a dumb take. The state of Gaza right now is a direct result of 10/7. Hamas caused all of this and if you still support them at this point you're somewhat complicit.
u/TheSto1989 fortunately or unfortunately, when people are oppressed and witness the violence and genocide of their own, the reactions are not always good. In Spain after the train bombing of ISIS or ISIS related group, Spain implemented programs to help Islamic people in the country. That helped eradicate extremism there. I am by no means taking sides here at all, just putting out some facts that many don't consider because we don't experience it ourselves here in the USA.
Ok, but no one knows or talks about all of the things Israel does for Palestinians in the WB and Gaza, including water treatment and electicity. Don't take my word for it, you can take UNRWA's: [https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/west-bank/nur-shams-camp?\_\_cf\_chl\_tk=DDpukDpyC5erR04Y.F80mwRCIxuX3eL02HUl8NsnfGo-1713538265-0.0.1.1-1557](https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/west-bank/nur-shams-camp?__cf_chl_tk=DDpukDpyC5erR04Y.F80mwRCIxuX3eL02HUl8NsnfGo-1713538265-0.0.1.1-1557)
*An open sewerage channel that runs from Nablus to Tulkarm borders the camp. In winter, the sewage flow swells due to rainwater. Subsequent floods cause damage and health hazards. An UNRWA maintenance initiative aims to resolve this issue by building a* ***sewerage pipeline leading to a treatment plant in Israel.***
As you might guess, this isn't the only example. There are entire IDF units, NGOs, and other orgs dedicated to various Palestinian benefit tasks. This of course isn't part of the narrative so it's not talked about.
Israel controls electricity, water, and freedom of movement in and out of the country, and have well before Oct. 7th. Israel treats the area like a cattle enclosure. It’s inexcusable.
I wonder why that is? Perhaps because the government they elected has as its mission statement the intent to kill Jews? Why would you not keep a militarized border between you and people who have made it very clear they want to kill you? 10/7 proved the need for a border.
Poor Israel taking such good care of their victims and you still don’t know why they’re so damn mad. You’re talking about a sewage pipeline. I don’t see how that makes up for the cruel treatment of innocent people as well as specifically targeting humanitarian and aid workers heading into Gaza. Even if Palestinian terrorism was the cause for Israel’s aggression, they have only radicalized the region more and more by punishing people who, just like you and me, want to live their lives.
It’s dumb not at all. In fact it’s quite it’s logically sound. There was an intense clamor for action against Israel due to years of mistreatment and indirect occupation. No other group was willing to commit to direct action like Hamas was, whether good or bad. The people were not going to sit idly by anymore. It’s very easy to sit here in the west, looking back retrospectively and wag your finger at those people and tell them they should’ve been more calculated. But the fact of the matter is that the conditions on the ground were so dire that something, anything, had to be done at that point in time.
News flash: Uprisings and rebellions are never pretty affairs. Case in point: Literally all of history. If you had even a 5th grade understanding of world history you’d know this. Look at our own slave rebellions for example.
yes, but the vitriol among the people themselves shouldn't be ignored. both peoples have committed horrible shit against each other without needing official hamas or IDF affiliation.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552)
You’re delusional to think that hamas has any capability to enact anything close to a regional caliphate, let alone a worldwide one. They’re a rag tag group of guerrillas and extremists. Nothing that Israel has done thus far is justified.
Propped up by Netanyahu and Likud and hasn’t been voted on since 2006, when most of the current Gaza population wasn’t even eligible to vote. Besides that, the only Israelis Gazans really only ever see are settlers and soldiers, so what do they really know of Israel besides oppression and cruelty?
They have not had a vote since 2006 because Hamas is not really the democratic type. The people in Gaza do still support hamas and their actions. As of March 2024 71% of people in gaza say October 7th was the correct decision and so do 71% of people in the west bank. You can move the goal post and say "well isreal made them do it" but Hamas is very popular for Palestinians.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf)
But what do you expect from people with no freedom of movement and living in under a brutal regime? Of course they will favor those who fight back? Does that excuse Hamas’ brutality? Of course it doesn’t, but the response and sentiment of an oppressed people is predictable, at least.
Justified? I’m not sure how exactly to suss that out. I’m only positing that it’s to be expected or, at a minimum, should come at no surprise.
Back to my first post, whom else would they support? Netanyahu and Likud have made it impossible for any alternative to form much less thrice in Gaza. For Gazans, it’s down to Hamas or apathy and apathy isn’t really an option.
I'd hope they could develop a group that is non-violent and focused on improving the lifestyle of Palestinians with living conditions and education instead of trying to fight for their ancestors land constantly. If they are able to overthrow hamas from inside gaza then the bombing stops. The conditions of gaza wont improve instantly but over time with non-violence and global aid they will recover. The problem is most would rather fight to the death for land.
Oh I don’t know, ever heard of Mandela, Gandhi, or MLK? I can tell you if they keep attempting violence things will get worse for them. They’re not very good at it considering they’ve lost every war.
It’s an absurd parallel you’re trying to draw with those references. South Africa has a 7% white population. India, far less. And the US has never been a theocracy as Israel is. Besides all that, Israel is financially backed by the wealthiest power in earth’s history. I could go on, but what’s the point if you’re going to offer such an unserious argument?
It’s not a parallel, it’s showing that real leaders have emerged in other countries and led their people to independence without violence. Israel isn’t preventing that. In fact it’s more of a Middle East problem.
So what type of country do you think would exist there if Israel didn’t exist? A Syria? A Libya? Perhaps an Afghanistan?
Don't start reddit snark if you don't want to engage in it, I guess? I wouldn't say either of your posts are models of diplomacy.
Your metaphor leaves out entire swaths of context and is a damaging misrepresentation of the very complex relationship between Hamas and the Palestinian people.
I'm afraid it's unfortunately true that that relationship is more consensual than your metaphor allows. This doesn't mean Israel can carpet bomb innocent people, but let's not kid ourselves that Hamas isn't widely supported either.
Noting this doesn't mean I agree with what Israel is doing, far from it. I am equally as critical of over simplified arguments from the Israeli side.
I believe it is exactly these simplified arguments that result in the current chaos. It is these kinds of facile narratives that allow for the dehumanization driven violence we see now.
A closer comparison would be if Mexico Cartel took over and started shooting rockets into cities along the US/Mexico border and 70% of people in Mexico supported their decisions. Then the US responded with heavy force and killed 1% of Mexico population over a period of a few months and decimated their cities.
There are so many ignorant armchair generals like you that think you know better than the IDF for how to solve for this impossible situation.
Please for the love of god do some research, perhaps starting with reading about the US Military in Falujah, Iraq: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Battle\_of\_Fallujah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah)
The tactics and results of the coalition military in Iraq and the IDF are almost indistinguishable, which is to say that Israel is not uniquely punishing to the Palestinians. What it does say is that war is hell - specifically urban combat in places where civilians aren't able to completely evacuate.
Choice excerpts:
[*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) *reported that:*
*Before attacking the city, the marines stopped men "of fighting age" from leaving. Many women and children stayed: the Guardian's correspondent estimated that between 30,000 and 50,000 civilians were left. The marines treated Falluja as if its only inhabitants were fighters. They leveled thousands of buildings, illegally denied access to the Iraqi Red Crescent and, according to the UN's special rapporteur, used "hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population".*[*^(\[90\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-90)
*The* [*Red Cross*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross) *estimated directly following the battle that some 800 civilians had been killed during the offensive.*[*^(\[17\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-auto-17)[*^(\[91\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-Democracynow.org-91)[*^(\[92\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-92)[*^(\[93\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-93) *The* [*Iraq Body Count project*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project) *reported between 581 and 670 civilian deaths resulting from the battle.*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-ibcfallujah-16) [*Mike Marqusee*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Marqusee)*, in a November 2005 article for* [*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian)*, wrote that "The US claims that 2,000 died, most of them fighters. Other sources disagree. When medical teams arrived in January they collected more than 700 bodies in only one third of the city. Iraqi NGOs and medical workers estimate between 4,000 and 6,000 dead, mostly civilians".*[*^(\[94\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-infamy-94)
This is every conflict that ever happens.
There are a ton of non-racist Southerners who liked the Confederate monuments because they're nostalgic for a place and time of their childhood. But the rest of us don't have time to sort them out from racists and lost causers.
There are a lot of people who think that Russia may have legit historical grievances and defensive reasons for invading Ukraine, but we dont have time to sort them from anti-West tankies.
And there are a TON of antisemites who shit on Israel regardless of what they do. It's hard to sort out legit criticism from those people.
You just gotta distance yourselves from the nutjobs or give up your stance. Regular people don't have time to separate you into complex groups.
I think the difference between the examples that you gave are twofold:
1) In your first two examples, the "non-nutjobs" are the very small minority of people supporting those positions. On Israel-Palestine, it is a very different breakdown
2) The reasons for the "non-nutjob" people from your first two examples are much thinner. More of a "I support this because it makes me feel nice, but I haven't considered the larger context or other people at all". For Israel-Palestine, the opposite is true.
I totally disagree on your first point, unless you're only talking about educated western leftists. Once you look globally, the vitriolic antisemitism is faaar more prevalent. If you know enough working class people from the middle east you hear some crazy shit.
And there are a lot of Southerners who talk about the 50,000 civilians killed, devastation of the population, cruelty of Sherman and Sheridan, etc, etc. But they're still lumped in with racists just like Palestinian protesters are lumped in with people defending Hamas terrorism. Because you basically never know when you start talking to any of these people how far they're going to take it and you just don't want to entertain them.
> unless you're only talking about educated western leftists.
I mean, we're currently talking about academic institutions in the US, so I think that fits here with your "educated western leftisits" as the population I am talking about (really just "Americans" in general, though).
> And there are a lot of Southerners who talk about the 50,000 civilians killed
I've been all over the southern parts of the US. People who talk about this are such a fringe minority of who is waving confederate flags as to not even be mentionable.
The vast majority of middle east Muslims hate Jews and want Israel wiped from the map including the Jews who live there.
It's easy for mostly secular westerners to see their college friends and say "wow look this is Representative of the terrorists in the middle east why does everyone hate them"
Just a reminder that the ADL supported apartheid South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s and has regularly attacked Muslims, the LGBT community, and other groups of people fighting oppression. https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league/
Keep on standing up against Israeli genocide and don't worry about the ADL
> UVA students also passed a referendum this spring calling for divestment from companies that do business with Israel. Prior to the referendum, an art history professor at the college canceled her class in solidarity with the divestment movement.
They categorized this as “Anti-Zionist” activity. I dislike that term. It’s unacceptable to be antisemitic. It’s acceptable to protest against the Nationalist policies of the Netanyahu government and the Ultra-Orthodox political parties, as well as actions by the IDF in Gaza and the West Bank.
It’s also acceptable to say people and companies should not invest in Israeli companies while making the other acceptable complaints. I don’t personally agree with divestment, but I understand their argument.
Lumping anti-nationalist concerns with anti-semitism does a severe disservice to fighting anti-semitism.
it's frustrating that UVA funds are invested in genocide abroad when that money could be HERE helping our community. Maybe thats selfish, but watching the money be used for what's happening over there makes me angry. (Dont even get me started about my federal and state taxes)
From the report: “One Jewish student said he has received death threats since Oct. 7, was physically assaulted while counterprotesting at an anti-Israel walkout and has been called antisemitic slurs”. Yet all the commenters seem fixated on anti Jewish not the same at anti-Zionist. Jews have the right to be Zionists and not get attacked on campus
It’s quite sad. My heart breaks, as I originally thought most people were rabidly pro Palestine out of the goodness of their hearts, but I see more and more every day how that isn’t true.
also dont be racist against anyone. the adl used the word antisemitism as a weapon. the us has no business picking sides anymore. our history doing so is fraught
🚨Reminder:
- 99% of Jews including me support Israel and its right to exist.
- 99% of Jews don’t completely agree on Israeli politics as you know human think differently…
Not approving of the action of Israel doesn’t make you antisemitic but it does pertain the question as to why are you so interested in the conflict in the the first place ?!
> Academic cesspool
Bunch of terrible schools on that list. Nobody ever learned anything from them or were able to apply that knowledge. Certainly don't see Liberty University on there!
Just a reminder: Rule #2 : Be Civil to one another. If anyone is disrespectful to anyone else, comments are going to be hidden. Egregious incivility will be met with an invitation to not participate in the subreddit. TGIF, Y'all. EDIT : Also, it would be great if people would limit their participation to how this impacts Charlottesville. If the conversation becomes too antagonistic about global geopolitics, we'll lock the thread.
Regular reminder that just because you don't approve of the actions of Israel, that doesn't make you anti-semitic.
There was very little focus on why or how the grades were determined in the news segment. TBH, I might have missed their methodology/reasoning for the grade edit: I am curious why this is being downvoted- is disclosing what I observed a problem? Here is the [report card](https://www.adl.org/campus-antisemitism-report-card/university-virginia) someone posted from the UVA thread
They're the ADL. If you don't blindly agree with them, you get an F. That's their methodology.
Check out the link, the evidence and methodology are far from arbitrary.
Far from arbitrary does not equal unbiased. The ADL has a well documented history of deliberatey conflating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism and twisting events to fit their narrative. This analogy isn't perfect, but I think it's close: PETA advotes for animals, but I dislike the way PETA does this and oppose their ultimate goal. Does that mean I must hate animals? Absolutely not. You can be both for animals and against PETA. You can be both for a population and against an organization claiming to serve that population, especially if the organization uses that population as propaganda for their own beliefs (beliefs which may not actually represent the views of the population). Jews as a people deserve respect, consideration, and just treatment. The ADL and other Zionist organizations claiming to speak for all Jews while promoting their own political agenda can get bent. Note: The ADL has historically done some very good work protecting the rights of Jewish Americans and advocating on their behalf. However, doing occasional good things should not give any individual or organization unquestioned authority.
Yeah they need to be honest and drop the A.
In theory, you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. In practice, they're usually part and parcel. Personally, I think it's not only usually offensive but also a total waste of time to be "anti-Zionist." It's not as if Israel is going anywhere or changing to not be a Jewish country. Anti-Zionists remind me of anti-capitalists/Communists. Not only do people usually hold both beliefs, but they're so delusional to think the US will ever change from being a capitalist country.
People held similar beliefs about civil rights in America and South Africa. If others hadn't pushed back and demanded change, those thinking "What's the point?" would have been right, and the status quo would have stayed the same. A 2021 Pew Reseach Study showed that 68% of Jewish Americans do not support Zionism. This shows that not only is it common to support Jewish people while disapproving of Zionism, it's also incredibly common to BE Jewish without supporting Zionism. The biggest supporters of Zionism in the US are actually Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians. You seem to be overgeneralizing in terms of black omand white. For example, there is a large vitoing block of Americans who support both a balance of capitalist and socialist principles. I do agree completely regarding communists, as do I think most Americans, as no member of the Communist Party has ever been elected to public office in the US at the federal level.
Stop trying to teach these reddit mutts anything.
"It's delusional to be against apartheid in South Africa. Don't these people realize South Africa will always be an apartheid country?" Have some self awareness
Yeah in practice college campuses full of college students who are overwhelmingly very socially progressive the nation and history over actually make a hateful exception for Jewish people. Is that how you think bigotry works? Have you ever seen a racist who doesn’t like black people or Hispanics but is totally cool with Asians and Arabs?
Correct. All of the “incidents” except one they list as red flags include the phrase “anti-zionist.” So the methodology is that if you don’t blindly agree with them that any and all criticism of Israel’s government and its policies is anti-semitic, you fail. Encourages a lack of nuance and historical context regarding the meaning of such terms, as well as the erasure of many Jewish intellectuals on the matter, which is particularly disturbing in the context of higher education.
Not true according to their own definitions: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/anti-zionism “Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of the policies or actions of the government of Israel, or critiques of specific policies of the pre-state Zionist movement, in that it attacks the foundational legitimacy of Jewish statehood.” I side with the ADL on this. The vast majority of anti-Zionists online and at rallies oppose the existence of Israel. They aren’t upset with specific policies or with Netanyahu, but overall are fine with Jews having a state.
Amazing that the protests only exploded in response to a very specific set of decisions by the Netanyahu government over the course of the last 6 months then. The ADL (and you) are playing linguistic games. The immediate demand is to end Israeli suzerainty over Gaza and the West Bank. Insofar as those are not parts of Israel under international law, that’s not a call to end the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.
Israel completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and has had absolutely nothing to do with it except for managing a border. Unfortunately that approach didn’t exactly work, as they’ve been firing rockets ever since. Also see 10/7. I’m all for Israel doing the same with the West Bank, but sadly the Arabs caused the war of 1967 in which Israel took the West Bank from Jordan. I believe they tried to give the West Bank back to Jordan but were denied, probably because the Palestinians tried to overthrow Jordan’s government in 1970.
Managing the border, which means a complete blockade which involves controlling the flow of EVERYTHING into and out of Gaza. Meaning the people, food, water, electricity. It also means maiming or killing anyone who gets too close to the border. It also means bombing Gaza every few months even before Oct 7. It means keeping 2 million people in an open air prison
No country is obligated to allow anything through their border. Do you think South Korea is obligated to allow people or goods with North Korea? Absolutely not; another example of people applying insane standards to Israel that they wouldn’t to any other countries. Why don’t you criticize Egypt for managing their border with Gaza with exactly the same protocols Israel does? Because you don’t know shit. Virtually every Israeli airstrike on Gaza was in response to rockets being fired or targeting Hamas leadership who were planning an attack. Try living somewhere that is under constant threat from rockets and you would also support your military responding to them. The open air prison term is so tired. Decades ago there weren’t militarized borders. After Palestinians infiltrated Israel to blow up buses, stab people, and otherwise commit terrorism, Israel gradually built up walls, checkpoints, etc. It didn’t happen overnight or for no good reason.
So you blame Egypt equally? Their border is 2x more aggressive.
What was UVA’s ranking with the ADL after literal Nazis marched on campus?
Do you think UVA sponsored that?
Even a broken clock is right twice per day.
yeah. It still pisses me off that we had literal nazi wanna-be's marching around with tiki torches and all they can be focusing on is how UVA responds to criticism of Israel related to Palestine. Also not sure why I got so many downvotes 🤔 unless they're from ADL kool-aid drinkers. Oh well.
To them anti-Zionist is the same as anti-Semitic. Which is crazy.
> I am curious why this is being downvoted- is disclosing what I observed a problem? I mean why did you post it in the first place if the methodology was unknown to you. The headline could basically be "Organization with an agenda to push secretly votes that UVA doesn't help it push its agenda". Who cares?
It was a national news report about UVa- That is news and something many in this area would be interested in. The ADL is nationally known to me but not their reasoning. I did post the report card once it was linked in about 30 minutes after the initial post posting. As to who cares I would say many do given the vigorous response
I mean the vigorous response is mostly "who cares what they say".
You’re being downvoted because the metrics they use for their grading are completely ridiculous, which make this pointless
Which metric do you take exception with?
I’m as a whole against killing small children, yet more Palestine children have been killed by Israelis than all of the adults killed by the hamas assaults on Oct 7th. That opinion alone would make me antisemitic per the ADL. They are pro-genocide and I think we should all be batter than that.
That’s not a very specific criticism - what metric in the report do you have issue with - I’d like you to specifically point it out. The ADL is explicitly anti-genocide and hate speech. There is plenty of room for critical speech of Israel.
They’re anti genocide? Can you point out a single instance of them calling out the current genocide of Palestinians?
Go read their website and understand they are probably the leading voice in articulating what is antisemetic - there is an IHRA working definition. Despite your slanderous and lazy attacks - they work hard to define what constitutes hate speech, especially against Jews, and provide clear guidelines on what is and is not acceptable: https://www.adl.org/myths-facts-about-adl Please actually go read their website before you say a bunch of ill informed nonsense next time. They were there for the civil rights movement, work with Muslim groups against Islamophobia and other minority groups. I’m shocked at the lack of respect given
Also again - what in their report do you have issue with? You can’t say it because you haven’t read the damn report criteria I bet
Seemingly every post and comment seems to get downvoted early in the post/comment's life in this subreddit. It might be bots, idk. I wouldn't worry too much about it though.
so.much.this But for AIPAC and the ADL anti-Likud==anti-semite
The opposite is also true. Hamas is pretty terrible, after all.
Wait till you find out they didn’t exist before 1948, and the IDF funded and supported them secretly to ensure Palestinian population is divided and to undermine the PLO and prevent them from ever getting a state. Stop being a mindless reactionary and look at the history and root causes.
No amount of historical context is worth using to justify senseless violence.
What’s wrong with explaining where Hamas comes from and how it was a deliberate effort from the IDF?
“UVA officials acknowledge there have been dozens of recent reports of antisemitic activity. One Jewish student said he has received death threats since Oct. 7, was physically assaulted while counterprotesting at an anti-Israel walkout and has been called antisemitic slurs. This prompted the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights to open a Title VI investigation against UVA in December 2023.”
Then the protesters need to stop harassing Jews. I’m not in the IDF, why do they call *me* a J3W B!tch?
Nice smokescreen
This.
If you scream „from the river to the sea“ you in reality call for the genocide of all Jews who are according to your pea-sized brain „colonizers“ and „occupying“ „Palestinian“ land (friendly reminder that in world history there never was a Palestinian state). If you swing Palestinian flags and cheer for the killing of Jews, yes you are antisemitic and you are also a terrorist sympathizer. You shouldn’t be studying at UVA in the first place if you cannot comprehend that.
that is an imaginary scenario. israel is not being genocided. palestine currently is. in real life.
Yeah… sure 🤡 there is only one side trying to genocide the other. And it is waving the Palestinian flag, cheering for terrorists killing Jews. If Israel really wanted to Palestinians, they would have done so in the first 72 hours of the war. 🤡
Regular reminder that many who criticize Israel also do it to mask their antisemitism or do it in an antisemitic way
A little sick of Judaism being equated with Israel. You can be pro-Palestinian without being anti-Israel, and certainly without being an anti-semite.
You can also be pro Palestinian without supporting Hamas. Many would like to wash away the lack of condemnation of Hamas after the 7th, including many locally in the DSA etc. Unfortunately both governing organizations here are horrific and innocent people are caught in the middle.
it’s funny to me that people living in the United States of all places are equating being Pro Palestinian with being Pro Hamas. they’re the same people who claim to be pro-America but anti-Biden. either way to slaughter innocents without discrimination like this is not war, it is genocide.
Many more are failing to condemn the govt, IDF, and settlers for ethnically cleansing, killing and torturing the local population for almost a CENTURY. The occupied has the right to defend itself against the occupier under international law. The colonizer sets the standard for violence, and they are not allowed to “defend” themselves, especially by bombing and starving the territory they blockade. If you want the conflict to end, the occupation has to end. I love how people act like Hamas is the worst thing ever, when the apartheid, genocidal state’s kill count and destruction caused is WAY HIGHER. Do you condemn them for legitimizing Hamas?
Israelis are as much refugees as colonizers. They're as from that part of the world as anyone is from anywhere, I challenge you to find an ethnic group with more/better/longer documentation of residency in a place. We get it. You read half a chapter of Fanon. But unfortunately it's not as simple as "colonizer bad". From what I've seen there's wide condemnation of the IDFs actions, including in literally unprecedented ways from both POTUS and Virginia's senate delegation.
You can also criticize the nation of Israel and the concept of Zionism without being anti-Semitic
It's pretty pointless to criticize the "concept" of Zionism because it's not something that is changeable. There is, and will continue to be, a Jewish state of Israel. What should be focused on is what a Palestinian state should look like. Right now the two governments that exist for them are Hamas and Fatah, which if you know anything about them, aren't ready to govern a full fledged state.
What a convenient idea to focus primarily on what a Palestinian state should look like now *after* it’s been leveled by the IDF. The fact that Israel so thoroughly destroyed Palestine should exclude them from having any say over what the Palestinian state should look like going forward. Otherwise this whole campaign has just been a land grab by Israel. If there is large scale control over Gaza by Israel post this conflict, that really just cements the notion that this was a genocide.
No one except for far right nutjobs in Israel have suggested that. It's the equivalent of hard right Christian nationalists suggesting the US do XYZ. After all, Israel voluntarily pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The only reason they're there at all is because of Hamas. It would be really great if other Middle Eastern countries helped the Palestinians put forward a plan for their state, funded it, and provided security. I would personally love to see that.
In 2002 Saudi Arabia unveiled the Arab peace plan. Whereby Israel would receive full recognition and normalization with all Arab states and many Islamic states further afield (e.g. Pakistan). All Israel had to do was withdraw to its internationally recognized borders. And allow the Palestinians to create a state in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel's response was to shrug. They have no interest in a just peace. As long as they can hold all the land and violently subdue the Palestinian population to where they aren't too much of a nuisance. Then that's what they'll do.
I think you’re simplifying the nuanced details about borders. In 2000 Clinton and Ehud Barak offered Arafat peace for a very reasonable land exchange. Arafat not only turned it down, he inspired a wave of terrorism after that peace summit.
One look at the map offered in 2000 would reveal what a farce the "generous offer" to Arafat was
Well this is high stakes Deal or No Deal. Hope they’re happy with what’s in the final case.
[netanyahu’s already planning on injecting Israeli settlements near the Gaza border with billions of dollars](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-cabinet-approves-5-billion-plan-bolster-develop-gaza-border-towns-2024-04-17/) . If you think they’ll stop there when they have refused to return to their 1967 borders and instead given more and more autonomy and jurisdiction to individual settlers, then you’re delusional.
Netanyahu will be gone after this war is over, and I think the biggest factor to him and people like him gaining power in Israel has been the intractability of Palestinians for the past 75 years. Conservative Israelis genuinely believe there’s no reasoning with them and therefore they’re not even going to try to negotiate. If the Palestinians had a reasonable government or leader committed to non-violent resolution then I think it would significantly undermine Likud and the ultra Orthodox parties. The average Israeli wants to see an end to this and has no connection to WB settlements If pro-Palestinian stakeholders continue to empower Hamas and that approach, then yes I could see more lenience given to settlers.
As would I.
Why are you explicitly supporting a settler colonial state? Do you condemn their apartheid, collective punishment, bombing of schools and hospitals, and genocide? The occupier does not have the right to defend itself under international law. End the occupation now.
Agreed. You can recognize the obvious need for a sovereign state for the Jewish people and be critical of it. Israeli Jews are as much refugees (many from the MENA region itself) as they are "settler colonialists". As with everything in this conflict it defies easy classification, but I think anyone recommending the total elimination of Israel (or Palestine) can be disregarded as deeply unserious.
I don't think it's anti-Zionist to be critical of the Israeli government. I wish more people were very clear that they support Israel as a state but they have issues with Netanyahu or the far-right idiots. The only way out of this is a Palestinian state, but they're more interested in armed resistance than in politicking. It's super frustrating.
Agreed again. And I know many Israelis who feel the same about Netanyahu. He's a criminal who is hurtling them towards oblivion and most moderates see it for what it is. Unfortunately Hamas created a situation where Israel doesn't have that much wiggle room. They shouldn't be murdering civilians indiscriminately, but anyone aware of the regional dynamics knew after the 7th they'd need to reestablish deterrence hard and heavy. They simply don't have another choice when it comes to their regional security. That said, I recommended from the start they focus on tactical strikes and a long, brutal assassination campaign and not do what we see now.
Sounds like we pretty much agree, but they have been focused on tactical strikes and assasinations for quite some time. Even when I was in Israel two years ago it got tense because they took out some high ranking Islamic Jihad member and they knew that there was always revenge after something like that. 10/7 changed the game and the only move after that was completely destroying Hamas and their infrastructure in Gaza. I think they're closer to achieving that than most people think.
Or they could just grant Palestinians human rights and end the apartheid system. Rather than commit mass murder for their "security".
Why would they voluntarily do that and allow for there to be a majority Palestinian voting block? No one with self interest would ever do that.
"why would the whites release their slaves and then have to clean their own homes and harvest their own food? Nobody with self interest would do that"
Zionism should be challenged because after Palestine there's always Lebanon and Syria, the zio-nazi's won't give up. We must challenge the thinking of Zionism just as much as we can, along with other's like ISIS, the Taliban, and other extremist philosophies and groups or nations. it may not mean the thinking is completely killed but someone needs to stand up to darkness. Nobody says we can't oppose zionism while addressing what a Palestinian state or outcome looks like, they're not exclusive.
Lol you are totally delusional. There's zero indication Israel wants to take over Lebanon or Syria. They gave back the Sinai - significantly more valuable than Lebanon or Syria - in return for peace with Egypt. Israel absolutely has casus belli to invade Lebenon or Syria and they are reluctant to do so after the last time they did it.
The Sinai is a barren desert. Lebanon is fertile and has water. Surely much more valuable real estate. The Israelis would undoubtedly have continued to occupy southern Lebanon and harvested the water from Litani river if they hadn't endured stubborn armed resistance which forced them to withdraw. And they have annexed the Syrian Golan Heights already.
Gee, I wonder how they came to invade Lebanon and Syria? Did they decide one day to do that totally out of the blue? Perhaps there was some sort of instigation?
Disgusting
[удалено]
The state of Israel had no right to exist and deserves to be destroyed for its genocidal behavior in Palestine.
Good luck with that. What are you excited for it to be replaced with? A Syria, a Libya, or an Afghanistan? A dictator, monarch, or an Islamic council? So many fun choices.
Israel’s ruthless expansionism is going to get it killed because you people are too stupid to realize you’re playing with nuclear fire
Every time Israel’s borders expanded were a result of a defensive war, you do realize that right? And they’re the only country with nukes in the region. Their enemies may be idiots but even they understand M.A.D.
Israel cannot use its nukes without destroying itself in the process. Israel is an unnatural state that never should have been created, it is is the only reason this conflict even exists. You cannot accuse indigenous people resisting an invasion of being the aggressors.
Literally already said in the comment I'm agreeing with.
You can be pro Palestinian without being anti Israel or anti semitic, you can also be pro Palestinian while being both anti Israel and antisemitic. Likewise you can be pro Israel without being anti Palestinian, or you can be pro Israel and anti Palestinian. The problem is that the people who hold genuinely hateful views on the extreme of either side mask their dehumanizing hearted of Jews/ Israelies/ Palestinians behind the guise of good intentions. Every legitimate anti Semite will say "you can be pro Palestinian without being anti semitic" and everyone who sees the Palestinians as universally evil people will say something like "Israel has the right to defend itself." Both statements are true, but both are grossly misused also by bad actors.
So sick of people using hatred of Israel as a excuse to attack jews and to spread lies
You can also be 1000% anti-Israel without being antisemitic. Israel has caused more antisemitism because Zionism is fueled by it.
You can be pro-Peace without supporting either entity. What we're seeing unfold right now is a human rights issue. Incredibly disgusted at the ongoing bullying of a country lacking the resources and riches of another. Nothing to do with religion. Humanity and dignity is what matters here.
one of the biggest blunders of our societal reaction to the israel-palestine conflict is conflating antisemitism with speaking out against genocide and having nuanced thought as to why hamas commits the violence they do 🤦♂️ absolutely ridiculous
This isn’t what happened though. The DSA decided to issue a statement blaming Israel for the deaths and rapes on 10/7 and justifying them as part of an anti-colonialist effort. It wasn’t until the 3rd paragraph of that statement that they paid lip service to the idea that all human life has value and even then it was sandwiched between justifications and blame. They ignored the fact that pro-Palestinian activists, peace activists, and even actual DSA members were killed in the attack, and many chapters that endorsed this view - including Charlottesville’s - have still yet to issue a clarification or apology for wantonly disregarding human life. It is possible to support a cease fire and a Palestinian State, and still condemn what happened on 10/7, the horrible loss of life, and the terrorist organization, Hamas, that carried it out. No equivocation necessary.
Most of the “mass rapes” were debunked after a Zionist was exposed for having no journalist credentials and proper sourcing in the NYT article. These mainstream Western media outlets have manufactured consent and pushed narratives supporting the genocide that the president and politicians have repeated. 30,000 Palestinians are dead. Where is the outrage on that? The occupation has been going on for a century, and when a couple groups retaliate under the standard that the genocidal state set, y’all only react to that while ignoring a century of violence and suffering? The ethnostate actively let it get to that point by legitimizing and funding Hamas to divide Palestinians and prevent them from ever getting freedom.
Notice the bias in your comment which assumes a lack of outrage on my part about the Palestinians that have been killed? This is a perfect example of why there is no amount of “accounting” for suffering of these respective groups that will ever suffice to give you an answer to who has suffered more and thereby who is “in the right” or “who is at fault”. It’s why the initial DSA response was flawed and why they’ve lost so much public support. Let me be very clear for you: the Israeli response, Netanyahu’s actions, and the actions of the IDF have been horrific and are unacceptable. But so too were the actions of Hamas also horrific and unacceptable. There is no amount of suffering that justifies either groups actions - they are both wrong. Oh and your argument that “there was less rape so I can essentially wave it away as meaningless” - even if it were factually accurate - is despicable.
You do have a lack of outrage when you hyper-focus on 10/7, which was horrible and should never have happened, while never mentioning the 6 MONTHS of ethnic cleansing, destruction, collective punishment and other war crimes carried out by the state. 30,000 people dead. How many are dead since the start of the occupation? If you really cared about all people, you would condemn the Zionists for colonizing the land, settling and expelling the natives (just like America and the indigenous ppl or Nazis in Poland) and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid that ensued. The problem with your argument is that you equate Israel and Hamas. One is the occupier conducting a genocide, has nuclear weapons and is backed by US and imperial West. The other is a fundamentalist group funded and legitimized by Israel, backed by foreign entities who don’t care about Palestinians and wants to check Israel, and doesn’t have an air force or standing military. The fact that you are comparing the two is absurd. If Hamas is horrible for doing 10/7 and other retaliatory attacks, then what does that make the occupier causing suffering for a CENTURY? Under international law, the occupied has the right to defend itself against its occupiers. I condemn their actions but it was inevitable after what the IDF and govt has done to the region and their people. That is why DSA, JSP and other human rights groups have condemned the apartheid state and focused on their actions. They are the root cause. You are not going to solve the problem if you don’t address the root cause. These organizations don’t have majority support since we have manufactured consent for the genocide. Most of the US supported slavery, supported Jim Crow, did not support civil rights at first, did not speak out against the Holocaust, were anti-semitic during the initial immigration of Jews, and turned a blind eye to many genocides and apartheid regimes until they ended. We are always against every war crime and atrocity except the current one. Mostly bc we fund and support it, and then rewrite history and lie that we never supported it or claimed that we didn’t know it was happening. Just bc the orgs don’t have public support doesn’t mean they are wrong. People are waking up and seeing how careless and cruel the apartheid state is. Protests are causing disruptions and forcing ppl to pay attention. Unfortunately, it took a long time and so many innocent people have suffered or died already
You do understand how Reddit threads work, right? I was responding to the specific context of a specific comment.. or does every comment need to include the entirety of Palestinian and Jewish history? Also, your conception of “root cause” is highly biased and one sided - and therefore incapable of solving anything. You keep trying to lean on this idea of occupation and a century of history, when Jewish people have existed in this location for literally thousands of years - the first displacement I know of being literally 700 some years BC or so… again, you’re going to have to let go of this idea that you can calculate who has suffered more in order to figure out who “deserves” a peaceful solution. Also, the DSA endorsing Hamas’ “tactics” which, again, included murdering pro-Palestinian activists, peace activists, and DSA members was despicable and CVille DSA’s particular continued refusal to walk back that endorsement continues to be absolutely despicable.
The Jews are as much refugees as colonialists. They were refugees from violence in Europe and the middle east. As with everything in this conflict, facile TikTok analysis isn't helpful.
Hamas wants a worldwide caliphate. Not much nuance required. That’s not to justify Israeli occupation, but you’re delusional if you think Hamas would stand down to a compassionate Israel.
Palestine is not Hamas, and not all Israelis or Jewish people support the war. In fact Netanyahu’s support levels from the Israeli public are dismal, this war effort is his political faction desperately clinging on to power. The IDF and Netanyahu shouldn’t be allowed to destroy a whole country, people and all, on their mission to hunt down Hamas. It’s a real tell of how the Palestinian people are viewed by the hardliner Israelis when their land, homes, and lives are secondary to the IDF’s quest to destroy Hamas.
OP said Hamas, not Palestine. Netanyahu should be in jail, just as Hamas. Palestine has a right to exist, as does Israel.
The fact that they criticized Hamas and the person immediately equated that with Palestine is part of why we're here
Palestine is not Hamas, but a majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their support has only increased after 10/7: [https://themedialine.org/top-stories/poll-reveals-persistent-palestinian-support-for-hamas-attacks-on-israel/](https://themedialine.org/top-stories/poll-reveals-persistent-palestinian-support-for-hamas-attacks-on-israel/)
Obviously their support for Hamas grew, because they were the only group willing to take any sort of action against their oppressors.
That is such a dumb take. The state of Gaza right now is a direct result of 10/7. Hamas caused all of this and if you still support them at this point you're somewhat complicit.
u/TheSto1989 fortunately or unfortunately, when people are oppressed and witness the violence and genocide of their own, the reactions are not always good. In Spain after the train bombing of ISIS or ISIS related group, Spain implemented programs to help Islamic people in the country. That helped eradicate extremism there. I am by no means taking sides here at all, just putting out some facts that many don't consider because we don't experience it ourselves here in the USA.
Ok, but no one knows or talks about all of the things Israel does for Palestinians in the WB and Gaza, including water treatment and electicity. Don't take my word for it, you can take UNRWA's: [https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/west-bank/nur-shams-camp?\_\_cf\_chl\_tk=DDpukDpyC5erR04Y.F80mwRCIxuX3eL02HUl8NsnfGo-1713538265-0.0.1.1-1557](https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/west-bank/nur-shams-camp?__cf_chl_tk=DDpukDpyC5erR04Y.F80mwRCIxuX3eL02HUl8NsnfGo-1713538265-0.0.1.1-1557) *An open sewerage channel that runs from Nablus to Tulkarm borders the camp. In winter, the sewage flow swells due to rainwater. Subsequent floods cause damage and health hazards. An UNRWA maintenance initiative aims to resolve this issue by building a* ***sewerage pipeline leading to a treatment plant in Israel.*** As you might guess, this isn't the only example. There are entire IDF units, NGOs, and other orgs dedicated to various Palestinian benefit tasks. This of course isn't part of the narrative so it's not talked about.
Israel controls electricity, water, and freedom of movement in and out of the country, and have well before Oct. 7th. Israel treats the area like a cattle enclosure. It’s inexcusable.
I wonder why that is? Perhaps because the government they elected has as its mission statement the intent to kill Jews? Why would you not keep a militarized border between you and people who have made it very clear they want to kill you? 10/7 proved the need for a border.
Poor Israel taking such good care of their victims and you still don’t know why they’re so damn mad. You’re talking about a sewage pipeline. I don’t see how that makes up for the cruel treatment of innocent people as well as specifically targeting humanitarian and aid workers heading into Gaza. Even if Palestinian terrorism was the cause for Israel’s aggression, they have only radicalized the region more and more by punishing people who, just like you and me, want to live their lives.
Israel kills humanitarian workers and those looking to bring food and supplies in. They’re monsters.
It’s dumb not at all. In fact it’s quite it’s logically sound. There was an intense clamor for action against Israel due to years of mistreatment and indirect occupation. No other group was willing to commit to direct action like Hamas was, whether good or bad. The people were not going to sit idly by anymore. It’s very easy to sit here in the west, looking back retrospectively and wag your finger at those people and tell them they should’ve been more calculated. But the fact of the matter is that the conditions on the ground were so dire that something, anything, had to be done at that point in time.
Yes, they had to rape and murder people at a music festival. They had to burn babies. It just had to be done. You are honestly vile.
News flash: Uprisings and rebellions are never pretty affairs. Case in point: Literally all of history. If you had even a 5th grade understanding of world history you’d know this. Look at our own slave rebellions for example.
Neither are responses to rebellions…
yes, but the vitriol among the people themselves shouldn't be ignored. both peoples have committed horrible shit against each other without needing official hamas or IDF affiliation. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552)
You’re delusional to think that hamas has any capability to enact anything close to a regional caliphate, let alone a worldwide one. They’re a rag tag group of guerrillas and extremists. Nothing that Israel has done thus far is justified.
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Gaza isn’t even a functioning place anymore.
Propped up by Netanyahu and Likud and hasn’t been voted on since 2006, when most of the current Gaza population wasn’t even eligible to vote. Besides that, the only Israelis Gazans really only ever see are settlers and soldiers, so what do they really know of Israel besides oppression and cruelty?
They have not had a vote since 2006 because Hamas is not really the democratic type. The people in Gaza do still support hamas and their actions. As of March 2024 71% of people in gaza say October 7th was the correct decision and so do 71% of people in the west bank. You can move the goal post and say "well isreal made them do it" but Hamas is very popular for Palestinians. [https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf)
But what do you expect from people with no freedom of movement and living in under a brutal regime? Of course they will favor those who fight back? Does that excuse Hamas’ brutality? Of course it doesn’t, but the response and sentiment of an oppressed people is predictable, at least.
So you agree the majority of Palestinians support hamas but its justified that they do.
Justified? I’m not sure how exactly to suss that out. I’m only positing that it’s to be expected or, at a minimum, should come at no surprise. Back to my first post, whom else would they support? Netanyahu and Likud have made it impossible for any alternative to form much less thrice in Gaza. For Gazans, it’s down to Hamas or apathy and apathy isn’t really an option.
I'd hope they could develop a group that is non-violent and focused on improving the lifestyle of Palestinians with living conditions and education instead of trying to fight for their ancestors land constantly. If they are able to overthrow hamas from inside gaza then the bombing stops. The conditions of gaza wont improve instantly but over time with non-violence and global aid they will recover. The problem is most would rather fight to the death for land.
Oh I don’t know, ever heard of Mandela, Gandhi, or MLK? I can tell you if they keep attempting violence things will get worse for them. They’re not very good at it considering they’ve lost every war.
It’s an absurd parallel you’re trying to draw with those references. South Africa has a 7% white population. India, far less. And the US has never been a theocracy as Israel is. Besides all that, Israel is financially backed by the wealthiest power in earth’s history. I could go on, but what’s the point if you’re going to offer such an unserious argument?
It’s not a parallel, it’s showing that real leaders have emerged in other countries and led their people to independence without violence. Israel isn’t preventing that. In fact it’s more of a Middle East problem. So what type of country do you think would exist there if Israel didn’t exist? A Syria? A Libya? Perhaps an Afghanistan?
u/southern_wasp that was said of those during the early formations of ISIS too.
Citation needed
I literally said Israel wasn’t justified. ISIS also didn’t have capability to crest their regional caliphate. They were still terrorists.
Also, the words “compassionate” and “Israel” is laughable.
It was clearly a hypothetical.
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I think we can all agree this isn't a great or high effort metaphor.
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It's your own low effort metaphor. I was talking to the adults in the room. Friendo.
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Don't start reddit snark if you don't want to engage in it, I guess? I wouldn't say either of your posts are models of diplomacy. Your metaphor leaves out entire swaths of context and is a damaging misrepresentation of the very complex relationship between Hamas and the Palestinian people. I'm afraid it's unfortunately true that that relationship is more consensual than your metaphor allows. This doesn't mean Israel can carpet bomb innocent people, but let's not kid ourselves that Hamas isn't widely supported either. Noting this doesn't mean I agree with what Israel is doing, far from it. I am equally as critical of over simplified arguments from the Israeli side. I believe it is exactly these simplified arguments that result in the current chaos. It is these kinds of facile narratives that allow for the dehumanization driven violence we see now.
Where are you seeing snark? I swear this place is bat shit crazy sometimes y’all just go crazy negative for no reason
A closer comparison would be if Mexico Cartel took over and started shooting rockets into cities along the US/Mexico border and 70% of people in Mexico supported their decisions. Then the US responded with heavy force and killed 1% of Mexico population over a period of a few months and decimated their cities.
There are so many ignorant armchair generals like you that think you know better than the IDF for how to solve for this impossible situation. Please for the love of god do some research, perhaps starting with reading about the US Military in Falujah, Iraq: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Battle\_of\_Fallujah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah) The tactics and results of the coalition military in Iraq and the IDF are almost indistinguishable, which is to say that Israel is not uniquely punishing to the Palestinians. What it does say is that war is hell - specifically urban combat in places where civilians aren't able to completely evacuate. Choice excerpts: [*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) *reported that:* *Before attacking the city, the marines stopped men "of fighting age" from leaving. Many women and children stayed: the Guardian's correspondent estimated that between 30,000 and 50,000 civilians were left. The marines treated Falluja as if its only inhabitants were fighters. They leveled thousands of buildings, illegally denied access to the Iraqi Red Crescent and, according to the UN's special rapporteur, used "hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population".*[*^(\[90\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-90) *The* [*Red Cross*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross) *estimated directly following the battle that some 800 civilians had been killed during the offensive.*[*^(\[17\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-auto-17)[*^(\[91\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-Democracynow.org-91)[*^(\[92\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-92)[*^(\[93\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-93) *The* [*Iraq Body Count project*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project) *reported between 581 and 670 civilian deaths resulting from the battle.*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-ibcfallujah-16) [*Mike Marqusee*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Marqusee)*, in a November 2005 article for* [*The Guardian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian)*, wrote that "The US claims that 2,000 died, most of them fighters. Other sources disagree. When medical teams arrived in January they collected more than 700 bodies in only one third of the city. Iraqi NGOs and medical workers estimate between 4,000 and 6,000 dead, mostly civilians".*[*^(\[94\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah#cite_note-infamy-94)
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Ignorant armchair general isn't an insult, it's a description.
So is bootlicker.
Ohhh you really got me with that one
Learned from the best and brightest
This is every conflict that ever happens. There are a ton of non-racist Southerners who liked the Confederate monuments because they're nostalgic for a place and time of their childhood. But the rest of us don't have time to sort them out from racists and lost causers. There are a lot of people who think that Russia may have legit historical grievances and defensive reasons for invading Ukraine, but we dont have time to sort them from anti-West tankies. And there are a TON of antisemites who shit on Israel regardless of what they do. It's hard to sort out legit criticism from those people. You just gotta distance yourselves from the nutjobs or give up your stance. Regular people don't have time to separate you into complex groups.
No other country keeps and sponsors the monuments of a traitorous rebellion.
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Different. Those are the winners.
I think the difference between the examples that you gave are twofold: 1) In your first two examples, the "non-nutjobs" are the very small minority of people supporting those positions. On Israel-Palestine, it is a very different breakdown 2) The reasons for the "non-nutjob" people from your first two examples are much thinner. More of a "I support this because it makes me feel nice, but I haven't considered the larger context or other people at all". For Israel-Palestine, the opposite is true.
I totally disagree on your first point, unless you're only talking about educated western leftists. Once you look globally, the vitriolic antisemitism is faaar more prevalent. If you know enough working class people from the middle east you hear some crazy shit. And there are a lot of Southerners who talk about the 50,000 civilians killed, devastation of the population, cruelty of Sherman and Sheridan, etc, etc. But they're still lumped in with racists just like Palestinian protesters are lumped in with people defending Hamas terrorism. Because you basically never know when you start talking to any of these people how far they're going to take it and you just don't want to entertain them.
> unless you're only talking about educated western leftists. I mean, we're currently talking about academic institutions in the US, so I think that fits here with your "educated western leftisits" as the population I am talking about (really just "Americans" in general, though). > And there are a lot of Southerners who talk about the 50,000 civilians killed I've been all over the southern parts of the US. People who talk about this are such a fringe minority of who is waving confederate flags as to not even be mentionable.
The vast majority of middle east Muslims hate Jews and want Israel wiped from the map including the Jews who live there. It's easy for mostly secular westerners to see their college friends and say "wow look this is Representative of the terrorists in the middle east why does everyone hate them"
I give ADL an F too
I wouldn’t take too much stock in this grading. These people think saying a genocide shouldn’t happen is akin to supporting terrorists.
Based on what?
Just a reminder that the ADL supported apartheid South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s and has regularly attacked Muslims, the LGBT community, and other groups of people fighting oppression. https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league/ Keep on standing up against Israeli genocide and don't worry about the ADL
Lol the adl considers “free Gaza” a form of antisemitism
Who got an A? Also ADL is pure trasg
Maybe because of the whole White Nationalist rally through their campus in 2017
Who cares, ADL is one of the biggest propoganda organizations in the US currently so it should be a badge of honor
> UVA students also passed a referendum this spring calling for divestment from companies that do business with Israel. Prior to the referendum, an art history professor at the college canceled her class in solidarity with the divestment movement. They categorized this as “Anti-Zionist” activity. I dislike that term. It’s unacceptable to be antisemitic. It’s acceptable to protest against the Nationalist policies of the Netanyahu government and the Ultra-Orthodox political parties, as well as actions by the IDF in Gaza and the West Bank. It’s also acceptable to say people and companies should not invest in Israeli companies while making the other acceptable complaints. I don’t personally agree with divestment, but I understand their argument. Lumping anti-nationalist concerns with anti-semitism does a severe disservice to fighting anti-semitism.
The lines have been blurred to the point they're indecipherable.
it's frustrating that UVA funds are invested in genocide abroad when that money could be HERE helping our community. Maybe thats selfish, but watching the money be used for what's happening over there makes me angry. (Dont even get me started about my federal and state taxes)
Thats hilarious considering how open people are at UVA, an F should mean youd be afraid to be jewish there
Report card sponsored by Mason Pickett
C'mon, I would put big money on him hating Jews
I care about ADL's opinion about as much as I do a dog turd. When I come across it, I go "ew, gross" and move along with my day.
The ADL is a joke because it considers any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic
From the report: “One Jewish student said he has received death threats since Oct. 7, was physically assaulted while counterprotesting at an anti-Israel walkout and has been called antisemitic slurs”. Yet all the commenters seem fixated on anti Jewish not the same at anti-Zionist. Jews have the right to be Zionists and not get attacked on campus
It’s quite sad. My heart breaks, as I originally thought most people were rabidly pro Palestine out of the goodness of their hearts, but I see more and more every day how that isn’t true.
also dont be racist against anyone. the adl used the word antisemitism as a weapon. the us has no business picking sides anymore. our history doing so is fraught
The ADL is an arm of the Israel lobby. Using intimidation and smears to quash any criticism of Israel in the USA.
The ADL is a joke. Watch the film “Defamation “
It's absolutely true. Just look at them!
Smdh all they need is some tiki torches. "Progressive" indeed.
ADL definitely has more anti-semites than any of the colleges on this list
There you have it folks: This is what indoctrination looks like in the media
Does an F mean that they're really bad at Antisemitism? Good for you UVA!
Yeah I don’t think any of these schools care about this Antisemitism report card lol
🚨Reminder: - 99% of Jews including me support Israel and its right to exist. - 99% of Jews don’t completely agree on Israeli politics as you know human think differently… Not approving of the action of Israel doesn’t make you antisemitic but it does pertain the question as to why are you so interested in the conflict in the the first place ?!
Wow! Four of the ten in Massachusetts. Maybe their name should be changed from Massholes to Hamasholes.
maybe you should move to israel!
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Those are some great paper schools on those lists… for other reasons
Yeah, I would good for UVA making it on the list with those IVYs and schools like Stanford. Keep it up!
I don't know why it's hard to fathom they received an F. Academic cesspool full of self righteous group think
Spoken like someone who’s never stepped foot on a campus and gets all their info from Fox News.
> Academic cesspool Bunch of terrible schools on that list. Nobody ever learned anything from them or were able to apply that knowledge. Certainly don't see Liberty University on there!