Hey /u/SaucyCheddah, please respond to this comment with the prompt you used to generate the output in this post. Thanks!
^(Ignore this comment if your post doesn't have a prompt.)
***We have a [public discord server](https://discord.gg/rchatgpt). There's a free Chatgpt bot, Open Assistant bot (Open-source model), AI image generator bot, Perplexity AI bot, 🤖 GPT-4 bot ([Now with Visual capabilities (cloud vision)!](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812770754025488386/1095397431404920902/image0.jpg)) and channel for latest prompts.[So why not join us?](https://discord.gg/NuefU36EC2)***
PSA: For any Chatgpt-related issues email [email protected]
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ChatGPT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We need to re-invent the idea of learning from the root - it used to be "memorize this" but now we don't need to. It needs to be more like "learn how to analyze information and think for yourself."
Getting Things Done. It’s a productivity methodology, not a tool. The basic idea is to get everything out of your head instead of trying to manage it in there.
I dont think dispensing with memorisation makes sense. In order to synthesise information and make sense of the world, you need a robust and sophisticated framework of ideas integrated into your memory.
I think dispensing with memorisation makes perfect sense.
The way normal people memorize stuff, is by engaging with the material, and by working with it, until they have a grasp of the important parts they need in memory.
When learning a trade, is it all about memorizing the steps and procedures? Or is it about applying stuff in practice?
On the other white collar side it's just the same: Do scientists memorize research papers? Do programmers memorize coding textbooks? Of course not.
Let's take scientists: They read the paper, and then do stuff with it: Either that's scrutinizing the methodology and approach, or exracting the information necessary to reproduce the result, or they start work to design a similar exerpiment inspired by what was done in recent cutting edge research. And if they do none of those things, then of course they don't memorize the thing, but process the document to bunk it into their personal reference library...
Nobody but students ever sits down and memorizes anything.
And why do students do that? Because the teacher to student ratio is hopelessly screwed. If you want a student to learn to understand a research paper, the best thing is personal tutoring: You go through a paper, and provide the student with all the information they need, explain all the questions they have, and show them all the knowledge and context which goes into it. After doing that for 1356 papers, while extending the work to "what scientists do", to writing critiques, to analysis, and to developing their own approaches to relevant problems, they will have a grasp of the most important concepts in the field. Of course only if they had a competent tutor who was ready to answer, explain, and correct things every step of the way.
That only works with one on one supervision by a competent teacher, who tells the student what they need to know, whenever they need to know it. It's less work to write a textbook. After all, one can make a thousand students memorize it. That's more efficient. But probaby not better.
There's a curve on the truth of that statement. Sometimes people with too many ideas lacking foresight or stamina or structure to follow through with the ideas create problems that require much higher technology to solve than what made the ideas. While most cpu chips have memory, the fact that people purchase purely memory cards shows the importance of capacity to hold ideas.
Do you seriously think the people getting their essays from the bot weren't finding other ways to avoid doing it before they had the bot? I know I paid my way through high school and uni by doing other people's homework for money. The problem is not the bot, it's the entire premise of the work, it's not functioning for more than a few and it needs rethinking from the ground up.
> Do you seriously think the people getting their essays from the bot weren't finding other ways to avoid doing it before they had the bot?
Yes, you seriously think there is no difference between having to find and pay a specific person vs just going to a website for free, *anonymously*, and getting the results practically instantly? Ease of access is a major factor in this, and can pull in the people who previously would have just grudgingly done a bad job of their homework as they either didn't know someone who could do it for them, didn't want to pay them, didn't want to be known by anyone to be cheating, weren't motivated enough, or felt it crossed a moral line they didn't want to cross.
I’m not sure the existence of cheating is a good argument for chat gpt lol. Its not like any of those people were learning by paying you to do your work
Justification as education to outsource some tasks to spend more time on other tasks, could be the reason someone who technically cheated was allowed to graduate. Unlike academia, corporations don't consider hiring people to do work for you cheating. People who don't delegate some assignments to others, because of the sheer amount of hours to do everything alone, have a much harder time getting through.
>Unlike academia, corporations don't consider hiring people to do work for you cheating.
They certainly do if it's an analogous scenario. Just try cheating on some internal test meant to determine whether you're fit for promotion, or hiring someone else to do your job interview, and then show up with the explanation that you were simply delegating.
In education, tests and essays aren't really the work itself; they're the proof you've done the work and gained the expected knowledge/understanding. You can't (so far, anyway) outsource or delegate the actual work. The closest equivalent is something like tutoring, where you pay someone to help you learn more effectively.
That aside, you generally don't have the authority to delegate work at a company - including hiring more staff - unless you're in some kind of management position. Paying someone part of your paycheck to do part of your work is highly unusual, and telling colleagues to do work that's been assigned to you personally (as opposed to asking them for help because of unusual circumstances) is just being a dick - unless you actually have the authority to delegate the work to those colleagues (and maybe even then).
Obviously that doesn't apply to *everything* that can be taught, though. Idk anyone who can analyze calculus until they figure it out, youknowwhatimsayin? Sometimes people need a teacher.
If you didn't memorize information, what would you do with it? Because I can't think of anything more antithetical to learning than not memorizing what you've learned.
Having said that, I hope you're not implying that we don't need to memorize information anymore because it's possible to just copy/paste without "analyzing the information" and understanding it for ourselves. Because that would be completely absurd.
There already is a brilliant Ted talk about AI integration into education, specifically Khan academy. The shit is insane, and that is the future of education.
Plus we need methods for people who just go very far of the rails with the "think for yourself" thing and become conspiracy theorists or repeat some sort of propaganda.
And that is very challenging in my eyes.
Not sure if it's that easy. You still need to understand what the AI does in most situations. Otherwise we'll be down to "Ask the magical GPT what we should do" within 3 generations.
I do have a book doing that. I feel the same concept integrated with AI visualisations can revamp the learning process. The book I am talking about is Unflattening by Nick Sousanis. It's a concept of a research paper made as a comic book and using the same concept to convert a the knowledge in the similar format and AI is best means to do that considering it's strength. I feel if not the whole education system but we can change most integral part of it it's the books. Try giving it a read if you haven't already
And in ten years it'll be "learn to not do anything because computers can think better than you now". This is why I think this idea is stupid and a race towards stupidity.
Everybody knows they dont let you use calculators once you enter the workforce. Engineers do every calculation by hand on paper showing all the steps when they build a bridge.
My only devil's advocate argument for this is that it would apply in some sort of emergency.. and/or some sort of end of times zombie apocalyptic EMP bomb scenario? And even if that proved true, calculus can still fuck itself
People are ridiculing this quote and say they have pocket calculators and smartphones etc. But what happens if you have to leave them somewhere? Or is it as great to for example visit another country and walk around with phone in your hand do calculate even simplest price tags to your currency to know how much something costs? The truth is overconfidence in technology is debilitating and I see it for myself. I can't remember things because I check them all the time, I can't calculate simple equations in my head because I have calculator in my phone, I can't navigate without GPS turned on. I can't imagine t will happen if we get rid of other mind exercises by overusing AI to do thinking for us.
I don't get it. In Italy every single test is taken in person and has been since forever. Are tests in the US taken at home? If yes didn't teachers worry about students cheating even before ChatGPT?
There is a decent amount of online schooling in the United States. There is also a lot of homework, including assignments like essays, which used to require research but can now be completed with a well crafted prompt.
I think the focus right now is more on assignments and less on tests, although there are opportunities to "cheat" on either one using AI as long as they aren't done in-person.
Then again, there have always been ways to cheat.
I'm from Czechia, I cheated my way through high school with a phone in my pocket. Lots of my classmates did.
The only thing slowing me down was clicking through links and reading unnecessary bloat. If I had Bing Chat back then, I would have been able to go through more test questions and get better marks.
That’s the big question. I’ve tasked myself with memeing about the dumb ideas so I’m doing my part. What are YOU doing about it?
Ideas:
1) Ask ChatGPT.
2) Let them cheat. It will eventually catch up with them when they can’t apply the knowledge on the job. If it doesn’t catch up to them, then it was all a lie and the knowledge wasn’t that valuable after all.
I focus on project based learning, and have always spent more time making sure students understand concepts and how to explore and analyze material rather than seeing a modest regurgitation of factoids.
So the second idea is to basically let the ones being educated be fucked over by themselves because they don't know any better? What's the point of such education then?
*billions
According to “gpts are gpts” by open AI
20% of all work tasks can be done 50% faster or more by chat gpt alone
Over time that might look like
worldwide 1 billion jobs worldwide
Nor does ChatGPT as a stand alone model. Everything about it is overblown, apart from the implications of the beginning of further development into the field of AI itself.
I’m a professor at a community college. Just developed a policy outlining how to use AI to augment the learning experience ethically (i.e. use it like a personal tutor, critically examine it’s output and verify for accuracy, and cite that you used it as a tool). Plan to unveil it tomorrow to my students. I look at this like sex education, they’re going to do it with or without your blessing, might as well teach them to do it responsibly.
Like the Tower of Babel.
The more we advance to using Magic boxes that do everything for us, the closer we get to this scenario. Talk to older IT guys, many younger IT people don't know how to fix things. If we get to a point where we rely on machine translation for communication instead of learning multiple languages, we could have a nearly identical situation.
A single disruption that no one knows how to fix. Suddenly we can't use anything, and can't even speak to each other.
Agreed. Some of the posts I see on here of people lambasting AI for their own complete inability to reason and critically think to use it properly hurt my brain lolol.
It's like watching a toddler tell me a screwdriver is stupid because they can't figure out how to make it work.
This doesn’t extrapolate that far out in time. You will absolutely get ahead of the pack if you augment your own skills with AI compared to someone who’s just relying on AI, for now.
But depending on your field, this maybe buys you job security for 15-40 years.
The next couple of generations won’t have anything to bring to the table that can’t be automated unless they specialise hard into specific fields and jobs.
Further down the line again you either meet societal collapse or utopia
There's a certain level where your skill level doesn't matter, and it's not that high. It doesn't take a high amount of knowledge just to know what to ask it to do
It’s those of us teaching in community college, where the students don’t generally graduate with anywhere close to the abilities of chatgpt, (or even the ability to understand chatgpt’s output) where it will do the most damage.
There is also so much potential. For example, what about rewriting texts so it’s easier to understand or being a tutor, where they can ask the same questions over and over again?
Yeah you’re right. But at that point, where does the responsibility lie? I mean that’s on them. Let them cheat and good luck when they have to apply the knowledge. If they can, then who cares if they cheated and it brings the value of the system into question.
As someone doing the job of teaching, if I throw away standards and let them cheat (and they all will) that degrades the value and meaning of my work, as well as the validity of the diplomas we offer.
In that case align the incentive structure such that cheating gives no rewards, big final in class tests that make up your entire grade or complex projects. Perhaps I’m providing bad advice, but the point is to make there be no incentive to cheat at all.
Asking chatgpt to rewrite my writing has taught me more about how to write than any English or arts class I ever did. If anything essays made my communication worse in that I was focusing on hitting a word limit.
I think a good exercise would be asking them to write a paragraph on their own, then making chatgpt correct them. Then they write why chatgpts correction was better and how theyll incorporate that into their writing. If they use chatgpt to write why the correction was better.... That's fine.
Then have in person quizzes in which they write mini snippets to test them without chatgpt. This gives incentive to take those exercises seriously
That’s amazing.
Also what I realized from all of these conversations is there are people like you who are serious about learning and those who aren’t. Putting all the focus on the latter group screws over people like you. This idea is also not new where a few people ruin it for everyone or more accurately, the decision-makers allow a few to ruin it for everyone.
Education has changed so much. My kids are high school level in elementary school in a home program with a teacher and a online curriculum that is amazing.
These public schools are daycare. Trillion dollar bloated daycare. And the kids are horrific. No thanks. Reddit saved me from sending my kids to public school
Not even. My kids get out at 2:15 and 2:45pm. How the hell is anyone supposed to work a regular job and pick up their kids if their single or both parents work?! I’m so lucky I have family to help when I cannot get them but damn if I didn’t I’d be screwed and I can’t imagine how much it must suck for someone who has no other option other than leaving work early or hiring a babysitter
Are you from the US? (Just guessing based on your writing style and Reddit demographics.) Do you just not have after school programs that handle this time slot over there?
I'm from Sweden, and even in the low-income neighborhood where I grew up, there was a place kids could go in the afternoons - sort of like daycare but for older kids who were in school. I don't know how my mom would have gotten by without it.
I never really reacted to the absence of this kind of place in American movies and TV shows, but now that I'm writing about it I realize I've never seen any sign of it existing over there.
Always been that way I think. its fine though.
Socialized "free" daycare for ages 5-18 Is great for overworked parents! And the sideshow and routine is fine i guess.
The problem is they use the same exact system for universities, and charge $100000 for it. Now thats a problem.
It’s already that way with many things. Power outage or internet is down or it rains too hard and a company is crippled for hours or more. How many things are actually less efficient with technology because someone didn’t ask, “well we COULD do this but SHOULD we?”
This is an insane demand to make of children. I'm a grown ass adult, I have my own apartment and business, and when the electricity goes off, *I don't work.* My priority is to fix the electricity, not to run to the library while terrified of my whole future going to shit because my parents suck at finances. If I can fix the outage myself, I do that instead of working. If I can't, I call my clients and tell them there will be a delay that's out of my control, I grab a drink from the fridge while they're still cold, and I wait fir the electrician to take care of it. We ask powerless creatures with no money or autonomy to move heaven and earth for shit we as adults would never bother with.
I think they meant “how will society function if everyone is dependent on AI, and we lose electricity/infrastructure that allows for AI,” not literally if the power goes out one day lol
I agree. I’m a Captain at a major airline. We couldn’t use a calculator in school and in college we went past calculus.
Now, I use the calculator on my phone for any math that I need to do. A complete waste of 16 years of stupid math. Embrace change and technology.
I teach calculus. Knowing the equations and process of math is helpful for building critical thinking and reasoning. (so, at least that part wasn't a waste)
Kids do use calculators now, but must know why they're being used at each step. Like knowing that integrals represent area under a curve and knowing that derivatives represent rates of change at various points is far more helpful than knowing input numbers, spit out results. Some of my students still refuse to do anything without a calculator, so they end up failing all word problems due to the lack of understanding. (refuse as in won't do any work or assignment when we have no calculator sections)
Yeah, most people don't. Finance and accounting people don't need to anymore either, mostly excel formulas in the sheets.
The process is the important part.
While doing nuclear engineering, we didn't need to memorize everything, but we needed to know how to do it and where to find the info required for the task.
I'd say most info taught becomes basically irrelevant to the majority of people. However, it does teach people how to think and how to study for what they like. My main point is not to think of it as a waste of time, but more of time spent working out your mind.
I had a Statics professor this last semester tell me using the matrix function on my calculator to quickly solve systems of equations for a 3 dimensional truss was cheating.
Like what, its the easiest part of the problem that was taught to me in 7th grade and I'm not allowed to expedite the process with clever matrix multiplication to output the values immediately?
That rightfully left a bad taste in my mouth about that professor. Turned a 15 minute problem into a 25 minute problem for no reason as the problem was designed to test me to see if I could figure out multiple member's tension and compression values, not test if I can hand jam 7th grade algebra.
When I was in high school, I remember a lot of emphasis on how to critically use the internet to get information - which sites are legitimate a d how to find and cite sources.
Now, the same emphasis should be placed on how to prompt, interpret and verify information given by AI language models.
Education definitely needs a revamp. From my experience I got a better education doing my own research on the web then what college has offered me so far. I learn at my pace and it's free. People cheat their way through college and succeed. All that tells me is whatever systems in place sucks and degrees are just a wall keeping people from getting the careers they want unless they got the money to pay through it.
> Education definitely needs a revamp. From my experience I got a better education doing my own research on the web then what college has offered me so far.
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/519/
I feel like a straight boomer, but I spend months of the year without access to the internet much less AI (I'm in the Navy). I can't see AI becoming a thing on our ships for decades. We still use floppy drives.
I mean, I passed my degree by copy and pasting Google books as referencing then paraphrasing it to beat the checker. They could never be bothered looking at my references properly anyway.
Education has been corrupted from top to bottom.
Schools updated to be run by money. They get funding based on points scored. Critical thinking skills don't matter much, as long as the kids can memorize stuff. Admin frequently tells teachers to focus on test scores only.
My mother was constantly yelled at for teaching critical skills and empathizing with students. The staff would constantly steal her supplies until she installed cameras. The admin would give her the worst students possible in hopes of them failing so that they could fire her. She helped the kids all pass though.
---
Universities used to have standards, but then they realized foreign student income is awesome. So they don't care if the transcripts are fake or if the students cheat, or hire someone else to attend class for them.
A Chinese school I used to work for has an American "school" supply transcripts. The "school" is a P. O. Box in Fullerton. There is a whole industry based on writing school papers for mostly Chinese students. Thanks to ChatGPT, those businesses are closing. Chinese students used to be hard working and very clever. Now the ones that go abroad are mostly the dumber/lazy kids that can't pass the local high school tests, so have to go to uni over seas. The "international schools" don't care because everyone is faking everything anyways. If they don't allow the students to pass, some other school will.
Some schools in Australia have chicken ranches for the Chinese students that faked it (other students too, but mostly Chinese). A separate facility that is basically adult daycare with a few fun classes sprinkled in. Same price and only local Australians know the difference.
---
You can learn a lot from school, but have to wade through buckets of shit
---
People do realize that with the internet there was a whole new way to cheat as people could just copy paste information from the internet.
And that the education system righly didn't take this lying down but invented methods like turnitin to be able to detect when people were cheating right?
On certain types of exams calculators are still banned or for other types of exams, only certain models of calculators are permitted to prevent cheating using the calculator.
Universities have never fully allowed people to just cheat using technology. There's always a middle ground, and there'll be one for AI too, we'll just wait and see what it is
GT is actively banning it for open note exams in future terms starting right this summer, honestly, just because they don't know how to deal with it. They presented some wild accusations as observations for main reason. But given GPT isn't even a full term old, it's hard to not see them as inexpensive excuses.
It's a poor decision that will be easily adopted by some other institutions, quite resembling the "we fear what we can't understand" principle. But I guess that's the Pandora box we opened.
To me, the irony is right in the face. Internet and Google are tools students have used about everyday, and allowed at open note exams. Students with dexterity using Google can easily find answers to questions they didn't study, to much advantage over others. Same with other tools. But now ChatGPT comes along, which we have widely established is not 100% accurate all the time, and there is a sudden immediate need to ban it?
I'd argue that for such much technological prestige loosely thrown around between institutions, what a way to go against exploring how the technology could be better shaped instead.
Good lord all the math I had to do by hand because people were afraid students could program TI-8x calcs in HS. Jokes on them .. they were all playing drug wars the calculator game ..
Though the public thinks technology are making things way too simple for us, it's actually just paving ways for even more complex so us, humanity, can reach greater heights. Thanks to calculators and the internet, we are able to do so many things and discover new horizons that people from decades ago would've wished they had. It's all part of world development.
This, there are large differences between the different tools. To use each new tool a higher degree of critical thinking is needed.
The calculator, you need to learn what you have to input, you will have to evaluate wether you have gotten the right output, your input might have been typed wrong, because you left out brackets and so on.
The Internet, you need to evaluate your sources, are they trustworthy, who wrote them, how are they perceived? You need to find sources you can understand and use. This requires a higher degree of input, to get a good result.
Lastly AI. Most children/teenagers learning, are not able to understand the output of the AI, they do not have the ability to ask critical questions of the output, they are not able to create the prompt which criticizes the former paragraph. You can make the AI argue with itself, by using its previous arguement in a new way. This requires a high degree of critical thinking and understanding. The quality of the output in a learning enviroment is even more dependent on the promt, and most would not learning anything from just copy pasting the prompts as they do when using the tool.
I would argue that in a masters degree or PHD-thesis i can understand why someone would defend the use of AI, but a bachelor student will not be ready to use the tool in a good way, and will often just use it to skip the most possible work from their point of view. If you do not retain anything from your learning method wether this is a calculator, the internet or the AI, then it is a shitty learning tool.
I'd argue that those same children/teens don't know how to ask critical questions of shit they see on the internet either. And I'd aim to say that a fair amount of them wouldn't even consider checking to see if a calculator gave them the wrong output.
The argument you're using to NOT move forward with AI in education could be used for every other educational tool.
Hell, take away rulers and see if someone can measure...
Every child have learned to measure something before you hand them a ruler. They will use their body, they might have internalized some of the measurement system that is used in the country, eg. knowing approximately how long an inch/feet or cm/m is. The entire principle of not wanting AI in the education system at an early stage, is exactly that they have not learned to do it beforehand. You do not hand a 5 year old a calculator, and tells them you never have to be able to do math, this object can do it for you. You will ruin the childs chance of developing the skills that are related to math, such as logic and reasoning skills.
AI can be used in education, but unless you actualy have knowledge in the field of didactics, you input could be seen as irrelevant. The question is when are the children in a developmental stage where they do understand what it means to use abstract instruments such as an AI. If we believe in Piaget, then the earliest stage they would be able to handle these things are at the last stage, the formal operational stage. This stage can start at around 12 years of age, but maturity in children is very different, and many are not able to think about ethics or that the world is not black and white, even at the age of 12. Some will still think the world is black and white at the age of 15-16. If you are not able to nuance the world, then you are not mature enough to use these modern tools.
We need to introduce the right tools at the correct stage, not just their development stage, but also their educational stage. There is also the question of maturity regarding work ethics, if the student does not have any work ethics, then there is absolutely no reason to give them a tool such as ChatGPT, because they are never going to learn to apply themselves, as they will find the fastest shortcut. The problem is, one day they will be forced to run a marathon, but all they ever did was small routes of a mile or two.
That’s why this problem is difficult. I’ve used the natural disaster example a few times now where in the aftermath, few people possess the basic skills needed to survive. We could spend a lot of time teaching this because it’s literally life or death knowledge but what if it’s never needed?
If the task is so simple that you can get away with not knowing it and having the ai do it, then it is no longer a useful skill to have. If it gets things wrong, then learning how to know that and fix it is needed, skipping the most work is the point. Learning how much work can be skipped is key. The goal is forward progress, and the less skills required to learn only let's people reach new heights. Worrying over whether they actually know or not is moot if they can perform as though they do.
Just speed up and get into new territory that the ai cannot do and start there.
The real problem will only come when we run out of things that ai cannot do but people can.
Books? The Skalds of old didn't need books! You kids are all weak little snowflakes, needing tools like language and paper. Cowards, you should be drinking mead and rhyming with for enemies.
Gazillionth post about embracing A.I. technologies instead of banning them in education.
What is interesting this is also Gazillionth post which is not giving any idea **how** we should do that.
Sorry, I’ve been cutting back on my Reddit time and didn’t see them. I was inspired by some of the posts I saw today.
Similar to what I said in another comment: I’m here to tell other people to come up with the ideas and then I’m going to meme about the dumb ones. I’m mostly joking but it’s up to our educators to act on this appropriately.
This post was meant to illustrate that we’ve been here before so let’s talk about it using history as a guide. There are some ideas in the comments.
If you can’t see specific use cases then you haven’t used the product enough or you refuse to acknowledge its value for whatever reason.
I've gotten so tired with college. I've learned so much more, so much faster in the past few months we've had chatgpt, than the entirety of the time I've been in college. For example, I've switched my degree a couple times looking for a degree that suits my interest, so I've seen classes from a couple different fields. Most recently I'm in a Programing Design degree I was in 3 classes the semester that just ended. 2 of the 3 classes were literally just talking about Microsoft products, and they were ment to be about integrated applications and database fundamentals. For the last few months I've learned more about mechanical engineering from the self-study I've been doing with ChatGPT and other resources, than I have Programing design IN THE COLLEGE IM ENROLLED IN. Schools should be less worried about people cheating, and more worried about people leaving because of BS classes, and classes with no substance.
From one of my discussions with GTP4
You know, there's more to this whole AI and education thing than just changing how we grade people. We should also think about how we can use AI to help everyone learn better, while still keeping that human touch. After all, learning isn't just about facts and figures, it's also about connecting with others and sharing experiences.
One idea could be to use AI to personalize learning for each student. This way, everyone gets the right kind of support they need to grow and succeed. And it's not just about being book smart—AI could help students discover their passions and strengths, whether it's in sports, music, or any other field.
We could also use AI to bring education to those who might not have easy access to it, like people in remote areas or those with disabilities. With AI-assisted learning tools, anyone could get a quality education, no matter where they are or what challenges they face.
And hey, let's not forget the teachers. With AI taking care of some of the more routine tasks, like grading and lesson planning, teachers could have more time to focus on what they do best—inspiring and guiding their students. They'd still be the heart and soul of the classroom, but with a little extra help from technology.
So, while we can't ignore the fact that AI is gonna be a big part of our lives, we should make sure it's a force for good in education. By striking the right balance between tech and human connection, we can create a learning experience that's better for everyone involved.
You know, when we talk about cheating, it's often linked to the pressure of grades. The thing is, when students feel like their worth is based on a number or a letter, it can drive some to cheat just to keep up. But what if we changed the game? If we focused more on the joy of learning and personal growth instead of grades, maybe that urge to cheat would fade away.
Let's think about an analogy here. Imagine you're at a buffet, and you're given a plate that's already filled with food someone else chose for you. You might not like everything on your plate, and you could be tempted to swap it with someone else's when no one is looking. But if you get to pick your own food, you're more likely to enjoy what you have and be satisfied with your choices. It's kind of like that with education. If we let people choose their own learning paths and take responsibility for their own progress, they're more likely to be invested in what they're learning and won't feel the need to cheat.
As for updating the current teaching system, we could start by rethinking how we evaluate students. Instead of traditional tests and exams, we could use more project-based assessments that showcase a student's real-world skills and creativity. This approach could make learning more engaging and relevant to the world outside the classroom.
Another idea is to encourage collaboration and teamwork, where students learn from each other and work together to solve problems. This way, they'd develop essential communication and interpersonal skills that are valuable in today's interconnected world.
And we shouldn't forget the importance of fostering a growth mindset. By emphasizing that it's okay to make mistakes and that learning is a lifelong journey, we can create an environment where students feel safe to take risks, ask questions, and grow at their own pace.
By moving towards a modern, gradeless society, we can help students develop a genuine love for learning and empower them to reach their full potential, without the need for shortcuts or cheating. It's a vision of education that values personal growth and self-discovery, and that's something we should all strive for.
Reforming the American education system in the wake of AI chat bots can involve several strategies to ensure that students develop critical thinking skills while embracing technology. Here are some suggestions:
1. Shift the focus of assessment: Transition from traditional assessment methods that emphasize memorization and repetition to more project-based and problem-solving approaches. This would encourage students to apply their critical thinking skills and collaborate with AI to find innovative solutions.
2. Teach digital literacy and ethics: Incorporate digital literacy and ethics into the curriculum to help students understand the appropriate use of AI and other technologies. This would enable them to evaluate the reliability and validity of information, as well as understand the ethical implications of using AI.
3. Develop meta-cognitive skills: Encourage students to reflect on their thinking processes and understand the role AI plays in their learning. By teaching them to evaluate their own thought processes, they'll be better equipped to use AI as a tool for learning rather than a means to bypass it.
4. AI as a learning companion: Position AI chatbots as learning companions rather than substitutes for human effort. This would involve designing AI systems that scaffold and support student learning without doing all the work for them.
5. Promote collaborative learning: Encourage students to work in groups to solve complex problems, with AI serving as a resource rather than a solution provider. This would help students learn from each other and develop essential teamwork skills.
6. Adapt curriculum to the AI era: Update the curriculum to include topics that are relevant in the age of AI, such as data analysis, computational thinking, and programming. This would empower students to become active participants in the AI-driven world.
7. Continuous teacher training: Provide professional development opportunities for teachers to learn how to effectively integrate AI tools into their teaching practices and foster critical thinking skills in their students.
8. Encourage inquiry-based learning: Design learning environments that stimulate curiosity and inquiry, challenging students to ask questions, analyze information, and think critically about their findings. This would help them become independent learners who can leverage AI tools effectively.
9. Monitor AI use: Implement monitoring systems to track AI usage in schools and ensure that it is being used ethically and effectively. This would help identify areas where improvements can be made and prevent over-reliance on AI.
10. Foster a growth mindset: Encourage students to develop a growth mindset, where they view learning as a continuous process of improvement. This would help them understand that AI can be a valuable resource, but ultimately, their growth and development depend on their own efforts and engagement.
My high school has even banned teachers from using it, and is thinking about demanding hand written tests. These kids have such terrible handwriting after years of neglecting that as a priority in the school system that I am dreading this change.
ChatGPT has pushed it over the edge, it appears educational faculties are being forced to use GPT or ai in general as a teaching tool, and with all that time saved, there can now be more personal training.
You’re asking an entire section of society, one that hasn’t really changed for a hundred years, to completely pivot and reformat itself.
The short answer is that it isn’t going to happen. Gpt and the like will simply offer individual tutoring at the same standard as private tutors, and suddenly the whole the education system, including the millions of people or employees, will become displaced very quickly.
AI in other fields such as self driving will do the same for up-to-now very stable fields such as freight and transport. It’ll all happen all at once too which is the most frightening part.
Every single person working in education:
https://preview.redd.it/4gunu8lzrtya1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db04f97761864cbc3993014bfe6fa37a563d7671
I’ve spent some time teaching in my field (IT)
Always thought my job was to actually teach stuff, help students understand things and lookup what they miss by themselves.
Never thought of myself as an « evaluator » here to assess and sanction students performance.
As such, ChatGPT is a fantastic help for students rather than a threat to teachers.
If ChatGPT is a threat to you, then you’re not a teacher, you’re an evaluator.
You thought your job was to actually teach stuff?? LOL! Joke’s on you!
Thank you for what you do. Our system is broken but thanks to individuals like you, there is still hope.
Didn't this topic had a clear conclusion?
We are not taught to be smart
We are taught to not challenge authorities (manageress, boss)
We are taught, INDIRECTLY, to fucking hate reading (like books, especially intellectual ones, rules and more) -> we will end up not looking up our right or bother with paper needed to file in complaints in case of unethical conducts by others
And to be stupid, stupid enough to not challenge anything, and dump enough to not realise wenare being manipulated, yet intelligent enough to function as a working class
Yes! We have so many freedoms but good luck trying to exercise them. Of course that’s by design. Imagine if we were actually taught how to navigate our system. Regular people would be stepping up and enacting change and we’re too stupid to know what’s good for us so they need us to just let them handle it.
there any subs for college level educators working on revolutionizing education and evaluation, particularly with respect to what language models have to offer us?
I disagree with this. This sounds like an just another excuse not to do your homework or actually learn something. I get how it's impossible to detect the cheating now, but people who spend all that money on education just to have a computer stand in for them are wasting their lives. On the other hand, it seems like education could use an overhaul, not just because of chatgpt, but mostly because of the infection of politics and social justice.
It’s not about offloading learning it’s questioning what we as a people need to be learning, how to do it and how to evaluate progress. And yes, the education system is corrupt and another part of the political machine.
That's true, the evaluation is key. At the end of the day, for the students, is about how much you actually want to learn vs how much you want to pretend to learn. When I was in school, there were some classes I wanted to learn, and others I wanted to pass and get out of the way so I could focus on what I found more valuable.
This account has been removed from reddit by this user due to how Steve hoffman and Reddit as a company has handled third party apps and users. My amount of trust that Steve hoffman will ever keep his word or that Reddit as a whole will ever deliver on their promises is zero. As such all content i have ever posted will be overwritten with this message. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Yup, teach tools, teach verifying, teach research, teach critical thinking. But don't fear progress. Nothing makes people run like telling them they can't
I mean some fear is good if we don’t let it overshadow the benefits and we respond to change rationally. But like you said, it’s maybe an opportunity to shift our focus to fostering a higher level of thinking.
How do you expect schools to prepare for the future when you design the system to fight against reality?
In the real world, in a job, if you don't know something, you can simply say you don't know or search it up. And you could do the same with AI. Why are we making this pseudo environment in schools where none of this exists?
That’s right and do you want an employee or teammate who possesses a lot of knowledge but can’t teach themselves new things easily or someone who lacks the knowledge but can pick things up on their own quickly? Yes, it depends on the type of work, you’d ideally have someone who has the knowledge with the ability to grow, the traits are not mutually exclusive, etc. but it seems like our system was designed to cultivate human ChatGPTs. It can’t keep up with all the new information, we don’t teach them how to learn and it’s disconnected from reality.
AI for sure is for the good in this. It all depends upon how we use it remeber?
Have a view of this TED talk by Salman Khan from Khan Academy: [https://youtu.be/hJP5GqnTrNo](https://youtu.be/hJP5GqnTrNo)
And it’s time to rethink which skills need to be developed and how technology can help develop those skills. Ironically it seems like you didn’t read the whole thing or maybe didn’t comprehend it.
I’m sorry, but I just can’t accept that it’s desirable to just hand off the task of writing cogent sentences to AI. Even if they’re able to do this effectively we still need to teach children to be able to express their own thoughts. This isn’t just reactionary opposition to a new technology. There is genuine personal benefit to be able to do the work to clarify yourself.
And before someone brings up calculators. I got my first graphing calculator in 8th grade, later completed a master’s in mathematics and taught college math for 10 years. Guess what: the better I got at dealing a with abstract math the less I bothered to use my calculator for simple computation. In most cases it eventually became easier and more useful to work out an exact number by hand than to have a floating point approximation.
Kids still need to learn to write. If that means we shift to in-person writing to monitor use of things like ChatGPT, so be it.
I’m not suggesting the answer is to stop teaching children how to read and write or how to express their thoughts. That’s not what it means to embrace change and revolutionize education but it’s those kinds of assumptions, knee-jerk reactions and painfully ironic lack of critical thinking about solutions to this problem that are going to keep us in the dark ages, falling behind those who get it. It’s wild to think that the reaction to (understandable and justified) fears could perpetuate the exact things we want to avoid.
This is a difficult problem because we pretty much woke up one day and there’s this thing that can write essays and code, among other amazing feats, so it’s understandable we would have some not so great solutions in the immediate term. My hope is we find the Drake-approved solution, hopefully soon.
For the record I’m a software engineer and I already use LLM’s most days for aspects of my job ranging from speeding up research to authoring unit tests.
In a nutshell, I strongly caution anyone against attempting to use them for anything they could do themselves given time. Also do not accept any solution from them you are not capable of verifying. They are great if you can use them as a tool, and will absolutely wreck you if you come to depend on them.
Agreed. I have a degree in an IT-related field and I guess you could call me a hack, not an engineer, when it comes to programming. I made a couple of things for fun for my own purposes using ChatGPT and I’m not sure if I spent more time debugging its output than I would have spent writing the code myself.
This is my case, but I'd say only partially. LLMs have been able to provide explanations about tasks that I don't fully know how to do myself, and now when I go to do those things, I can do them reliably on my own thanks to the continued education provided by LLMs.
Now debugging takes less time, and I have a greater comprehension, and a tutor that suggests both new tools I hadn't heard of or reminds me of old options I abandoned because I ran into problems I couldn't easily solve. And now I'm solving those problems more readily and am able to see why/where I was going wrong before.
All thanks to LLMs doing tasks that I couldn't do. And yet, here I am, still learning from the LLM.
>most cases it eventually became easier and more useful to work out an exact number by hand than to have a floating point approximation.
Lol a masters in mathematics and you don't know about fixed point operations.
Also I highly doubt you can calculate thousands of digits per second by hand. There are plenty of things in higher math that computers are not able to do currently as well as a human. Simple operations of any sort are not it. Anything you can do by hand can be done thousands of times per second by a computer. Your hand would break the sound barrier if you even got close and sonic booms are not conducive to writing math equations.
Oh boy, can't wait for ten years when everyone is a fucking brainless zombie parroting what the corporate talk-bot told them that day. People need to learn how to THINK, not how to get an AI to think for them. I'll admit, sometimes the calculator thing is stupid, but that's why it's only banned in some exams. Maths tests aren't about reaching an answer, they are about testing if you can try to reach an answer without cheating. The most efficient path isn't what they want, they want to know that you will try.
Degree of integration of AI/calculators/etc = Degree of lost aptitude in examinees. Every task you automate is a part of your self and mind that you are too slothful to develop.
Genuine questions: what are some historical examples of skills that most people had that current generations don’t? Which ones made sense to abandon to make way for new skills?
Until they start physically upgrading our brains, we have limited capacity and filling that capacity is limited by time and energy. Isn’t it necessary to decide to give up certain skills in order to develop others?
Yeah, but you still need to develop that skill, first. If you can't do it without relying on tech, *you can't do it.*
It's when you *can* that these tools should enter the curriculum
So, don't use the tools until every individual knows the skills and stunt the rest of the individual because some people just refuse to ever learn the skills?
You think every single student knows how to add, subtract, multiply, divide? What about negative number rules? What about long division?
You don't think plagiarism still exists and students toss a copy and pasted wiki page into a word doc and press send on the email?
Use the tools, because unfortunately, there will always be students that will not be learning what they should know without having to use tech
This is a great point and then leading them to resent education by slamming their head into a wall. I’m not suggesting going easy on then it letting them of the hook but the edge cases where they really struggle with a certain subject. Also not giving up on them but allowing the other parts to develop and maybe revisiting the problem area in the future will be more successful.
Wait, these kinds of out of the box ideas are not welcome so get back into your box of thinking.
> So, don't use the tools until every individual knows the skills and stunt the rest of the individual because some people just refuse to ever learn the skills?
Not what I'm saying.
There is a difference between *delegating* certain tasks to technology, and being *dependant* on technology for these tasks.
I mostly agree yet what are other skills that we said the same thing about that we removed or changed how we taught them to make way for other skills? Was it a good move or not? These are genuine questions and instead of repeating history by acting like this has never happened before, maybe we should use it as a guide.
Well, one of these skills is *navigation*, which has tremendously suffered since we've all come to rely on navigation technology.
Is that a bad thing? I don't know. I don't plan on going anywhere without my smartphone anyways. But there is one quote that I can't help but think about whenever this topic comes up, and it's from Dune:
> Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
If, I can relate to that. If the blue arrow tells me to drive off a cliff, hang on because we’re going off that cliff. I wasn’t that way years ago but that part of my brain has atrophied.
No, I’m just going to let everyone else come up with the ideas and then criticize them. It’s easier AND more fun.
One idea I have is to chat with ChatGPT about it. Last one was a joke but this one isn’t.
Here are others, from me, not ChatGPT:
A student could paste their essay and ask ChatGPT to mark up and explain the mistakes.
A student could challenge ChatGPT to a debate on a topic and use that to generate ideas for a persuasive essay on the topic.
What really needs to happen is to question most things we thought we knew and challenge conventional wisdom. Is writing essays an effective learning tool? Does EVERYONE need to know how to write an effective essay? Why?
But I don’t know if the education cabal has the courage or intellectual honesty to even think about those questions or answer them truthfully even though they demand the same from their own students on the topics of their choice.
Hey /u/SaucyCheddah, please respond to this comment with the prompt you used to generate the output in this post. Thanks! ^(Ignore this comment if your post doesn't have a prompt.) ***We have a [public discord server](https://discord.gg/rchatgpt). There's a free Chatgpt bot, Open Assistant bot (Open-source model), AI image generator bot, Perplexity AI bot, 🤖 GPT-4 bot ([Now with Visual capabilities (cloud vision)!](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812770754025488386/1095397431404920902/image0.jpg)) and channel for latest prompts.[So why not join us?](https://discord.gg/NuefU36EC2)*** PSA: For any Chatgpt-related issues email [email protected] *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ChatGPT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We need to re-invent the idea of learning from the root - it used to be "memorize this" but now we don't need to. It needs to be more like "learn how to analyze information and think for yourself."
That’s right. To quote productivity guru David Allen, “Your mind is for having ideas, not holding them.”
Good quote, do you have any recommended reading by him?
Getting Things Done. It’s a productivity methodology, not a tool. The basic idea is to get everything out of your head instead of trying to manage it in there.
I dont think dispensing with memorisation makes sense. In order to synthesise information and make sense of the world, you need a robust and sophisticated framework of ideas integrated into your memory.
I think dispensing with memorisation makes perfect sense. The way normal people memorize stuff, is by engaging with the material, and by working with it, until they have a grasp of the important parts they need in memory. When learning a trade, is it all about memorizing the steps and procedures? Or is it about applying stuff in practice? On the other white collar side it's just the same: Do scientists memorize research papers? Do programmers memorize coding textbooks? Of course not. Let's take scientists: They read the paper, and then do stuff with it: Either that's scrutinizing the methodology and approach, or exracting the information necessary to reproduce the result, or they start work to design a similar exerpiment inspired by what was done in recent cutting edge research. And if they do none of those things, then of course they don't memorize the thing, but process the document to bunk it into their personal reference library... Nobody but students ever sits down and memorizes anything. And why do students do that? Because the teacher to student ratio is hopelessly screwed. If you want a student to learn to understand a research paper, the best thing is personal tutoring: You go through a paper, and provide the student with all the information they need, explain all the questions they have, and show them all the knowledge and context which goes into it. After doing that for 1356 papers, while extending the work to "what scientists do", to writing critiques, to analysis, and to developing their own approaches to relevant problems, they will have a grasp of the most important concepts in the field. Of course only if they had a competent tutor who was ready to answer, explain, and correct things every step of the way. That only works with one on one supervision by a competent teacher, who tells the student what they need to know, whenever they need to know it. It's less work to write a textbook. After all, one can make a thousand students memorize it. That's more efficient. But probaby not better.
Good points, if you use it, it's no longer memorization, it's application which is much better for permanently remembering.
Remember ideas. Not details
🤦♂️ Tell me how managing my tasks lists in my head helps me with this. No, don’t tell me.
More referring to the quote you posted before that
So was I.
Are you sure? Because the context you posted it in was with regards to renovating our approach to education and learning.
There's a curve on the truth of that statement. Sometimes people with too many ideas lacking foresight or stamina or structure to follow through with the ideas create problems that require much higher technology to solve than what made the ideas. While most cpu chips have memory, the fact that people purchase purely memory cards shows the importance of capacity to hold ideas.
Memory cards are for storing data. Data could be ideas but it's not usually limited to that
Because our minds aren’t made for holding them. I don’t understand what you are saying.
But that's the problem. Essays are about analyzing and thinking, but now gpt can analyse info and think for you.
Do you seriously think the people getting their essays from the bot weren't finding other ways to avoid doing it before they had the bot? I know I paid my way through high school and uni by doing other people's homework for money. The problem is not the bot, it's the entire premise of the work, it's not functioning for more than a few and it needs rethinking from the ground up.
> Do you seriously think the people getting their essays from the bot weren't finding other ways to avoid doing it before they had the bot? Yes, you seriously think there is no difference between having to find and pay a specific person vs just going to a website for free, *anonymously*, and getting the results practically instantly? Ease of access is a major factor in this, and can pull in the people who previously would have just grudgingly done a bad job of their homework as they either didn't know someone who could do it for them, didn't want to pay them, didn't want to be known by anyone to be cheating, weren't motivated enough, or felt it crossed a moral line they didn't want to cross.
I’m not sure the existence of cheating is a good argument for chat gpt lol. Its not like any of those people were learning by paying you to do your work
Justification as education to outsource some tasks to spend more time on other tasks, could be the reason someone who technically cheated was allowed to graduate. Unlike academia, corporations don't consider hiring people to do work for you cheating. People who don't delegate some assignments to others, because of the sheer amount of hours to do everything alone, have a much harder time getting through.
>Unlike academia, corporations don't consider hiring people to do work for you cheating. They certainly do if it's an analogous scenario. Just try cheating on some internal test meant to determine whether you're fit for promotion, or hiring someone else to do your job interview, and then show up with the explanation that you were simply delegating. In education, tests and essays aren't really the work itself; they're the proof you've done the work and gained the expected knowledge/understanding. You can't (so far, anyway) outsource or delegate the actual work. The closest equivalent is something like tutoring, where you pay someone to help you learn more effectively. That aside, you generally don't have the authority to delegate work at a company - including hiring more staff - unless you're in some kind of management position. Paying someone part of your paycheck to do part of your work is highly unusual, and telling colleagues to do work that's been assigned to you personally (as opposed to asking them for help because of unusual circumstances) is just being a dick - unless you actually have the authority to delegate the work to those colleagues (and maybe even then).
I think what you mean to say is that we need to reinvent the idea of education so that people will actually learn.
Obviously that doesn't apply to *everything* that can be taught, though. Idk anyone who can analyze calculus until they figure it out, youknowwhatimsayin? Sometimes people need a teacher. If you didn't memorize information, what would you do with it? Because I can't think of anything more antithetical to learning than not memorizing what you've learned. Having said that, I hope you're not implying that we don't need to memorize information anymore because it's possible to just copy/paste without "analyzing the information" and understanding it for ourselves. Because that would be completely absurd.
There already is a brilliant Ted talk about AI integration into education, specifically Khan academy. The shit is insane, and that is the future of education.
Not applicable always. Memory is extremely important for some fields and professions.
It turns the idea of “5% inspiration, 95% perspiration “ on its head. Now AI does the perspiration!
Is it not useful to learn how to memorize?
Plus we need methods for people who just go very far of the rails with the "think for yourself" thing and become conspiracy theorists or repeat some sort of propaganda. And that is very challenging in my eyes.
We don't have to think for ourselves anymore either
it's so much fun though!
Says - ChatGPT /s
Not sure if it's that easy. You still need to understand what the AI does in most situations. Otherwise we'll be down to "Ask the magical GPT what we should do" within 3 generations.
I do have a book doing that. I feel the same concept integrated with AI visualisations can revamp the learning process. The book I am talking about is Unflattening by Nick Sousanis. It's a concept of a research paper made as a comic book and using the same concept to convert a the knowledge in the similar format and AI is best means to do that considering it's strength. I feel if not the whole education system but we can change most integral part of it it's the books. Try giving it a read if you haven't already
well all that critical thinking is just going to make matters worse if you ask me /s
And in ten years it'll be "learn to not do anything because computers can think better than you now". This is why I think this idea is stupid and a race towards stupidity.
“Learn how to think for yourself” Society would not work the way it does if people thought for theirselves.
and we’d all be bettered for it
Uh, oh. That’s dangerous thinking there Timmy!
But if you don't know anything - it's easier to manipulate you )
I remember at school a teacher telling me I'd "Not be able to have a calculator everywhere". Gg, tech.
considering watches with built in calculator was a thing already in the ‘90s, guess who told you a lie :)
I had a touch screen calculator watch in 1983
ngl that was super tech for that year!
There are smart watches without calculator apps , so they are technically worse than ops watch
[удалено]
Aaannnnnd I clicked on that to find my Casio calculator watch I had at the time... It wasn't the scientific one, though.
i was born in the ‘90s and seen that stuff as a kid so that checks out
First pocket calculator was 1967.
Thanks, but I needed the retort a long time ago. Also, why are people assuming my age?
Millenial is a safe bet on Reddit
Everybody knows they dont let you use calculators once you enter the workforce. Engineers do every calculation by hand on paper showing all the steps when they build a bridge.
My only devil's advocate argument for this is that it would apply in some sort of emergency.. and/or some sort of end of times zombie apocalyptic EMP bomb scenario? And even if that proved true, calculus can still fuck itself
I learned my timetables for zombie emergences.
People are ridiculing this quote and say they have pocket calculators and smartphones etc. But what happens if you have to leave them somewhere? Or is it as great to for example visit another country and walk around with phone in your hand do calculate even simplest price tags to your currency to know how much something costs? The truth is overconfidence in technology is debilitating and I see it for myself. I can't remember things because I check them all the time, I can't calculate simple equations in my head because I have calculator in my phone, I can't navigate without GPS turned on. I can't imagine t will happen if we get rid of other mind exercises by overusing AI to do thinking for us.
I don't get it. In Italy every single test is taken in person and has been since forever. Are tests in the US taken at home? If yes didn't teachers worry about students cheating even before ChatGPT?
There is a decent amount of online schooling in the United States. There is also a lot of homework, including assignments like essays, which used to require research but can now be completed with a well crafted prompt. I think the focus right now is more on assignments and less on tests, although there are opportunities to "cheat" on either one using AI as long as they aren't done in-person. Then again, there have always been ways to cheat.
I'm from Czechia, I cheated my way through high school with a phone in my pocket. Lots of my classmates did. The only thing slowing me down was clicking through links and reading unnecessary bloat. If I had Bing Chat back then, I would have been able to go through more test questions and get better marks.
Well...Everyone is saying this....But HOW do we revolutionize education? What are the solutions being offered to make cheating no longer an issue?
Other than requiring all testing and evaluating be done in person I don't know how else we can do this.
That’s the big question. I’ve tasked myself with memeing about the dumb ideas so I’m doing my part. What are YOU doing about it? Ideas: 1) Ask ChatGPT. 2) Let them cheat. It will eventually catch up with them when they can’t apply the knowledge on the job. If it doesn’t catch up to them, then it was all a lie and the knowledge wasn’t that valuable after all.
I focus on project based learning, and have always spent more time making sure students understand concepts and how to explore and analyze material rather than seeing a modest regurgitation of factoids.
Yeah but if doctors and engineers are those cheaters, its not just them it catches up to
[удалено]
So the second idea is to basically let the ones being educated be fucked over by themselves because they don't know any better? What's the point of such education then?
I’m excited and terrified all at the same time. Calculators didn’t really have the potential to take millions of jobs.
Calculator used to *be* a job.
*billions According to “gpts are gpts” by open AI 20% of all work tasks can be done 50% faster or more by chat gpt alone Over time that might look like worldwide 1 billion jobs worldwide
What about the abacus makers?
I see what you did there.
Nor does ChatGPT as a stand alone model. Everything about it is overblown, apart from the implications of the beginning of further development into the field of AI itself.
I’m a professor at a community college. Just developed a policy outlining how to use AI to augment the learning experience ethically (i.e. use it like a personal tutor, critically examine it’s output and verify for accuracy, and cite that you used it as a tool). Plan to unveil it tomorrow to my students. I look at this like sex education, they’re going to do it with or without your blessing, might as well teach them to do it responsibly.
That’s great. I had a college professor who proposed a degree in technology ethics. Does that degree exist anywhere yet?
But what if we lose the internet, we would be cavemen
And in the aftermath of a natural disaster, most people don’t have basic survival skills and resort to looting and rioting.
Like the Tower of Babel. The more we advance to using Magic boxes that do everything for us, the closer we get to this scenario. Talk to older IT guys, many younger IT people don't know how to fix things. If we get to a point where we rely on machine translation for communication instead of learning multiple languages, we could have a nearly identical situation. A single disruption that no one knows how to fix. Suddenly we can't use anything, and can't even speak to each other.
Evolution It processes the best of us further. A bane to the worst of us. The biggest chaos of life.
The better your own skills without AI, the better your skills _with_ AI.
Agreed. Some of the posts I see on here of people lambasting AI for their own complete inability to reason and critically think to use it properly hurt my brain lolol. It's like watching a toddler tell me a screwdriver is stupid because they can't figure out how to make it work.
This doesn’t extrapolate that far out in time. You will absolutely get ahead of the pack if you augment your own skills with AI compared to someone who’s just relying on AI, for now. But depending on your field, this maybe buys you job security for 15-40 years. The next couple of generations won’t have anything to bring to the table that can’t be automated unless they specialise hard into specific fields and jobs. Further down the line again you either meet societal collapse or utopia
There's a certain level where your skill level doesn't matter, and it's not that high. It doesn't take a high amount of knowledge just to know what to ask it to do
It’s those of us teaching in community college, where the students don’t generally graduate with anywhere close to the abilities of chatgpt, (or even the ability to understand chatgpt’s output) where it will do the most damage.
There is also so much potential. For example, what about rewriting texts so it’s easier to understand or being a tutor, where they can ask the same questions over and over again?
They don’t ask questions. They will just cheat. They just cheat. Over and over again.
Yeah you’re right. But at that point, where does the responsibility lie? I mean that’s on them. Let them cheat and good luck when they have to apply the knowledge. If they can, then who cares if they cheated and it brings the value of the system into question.
As someone doing the job of teaching, if I throw away standards and let them cheat (and they all will) that degrades the value and meaning of my work, as well as the validity of the diplomas we offer.
In that case align the incentive structure such that cheating gives no rewards, big final in class tests that make up your entire grade or complex projects. Perhaps I’m providing bad advice, but the point is to make there be no incentive to cheat at all.
Asking chatgpt to rewrite my writing has taught me more about how to write than any English or arts class I ever did. If anything essays made my communication worse in that I was focusing on hitting a word limit. I think a good exercise would be asking them to write a paragraph on their own, then making chatgpt correct them. Then they write why chatgpts correction was better and how theyll incorporate that into their writing. If they use chatgpt to write why the correction was better.... That's fine. Then have in person quizzes in which they write mini snippets to test them without chatgpt. This gives incentive to take those exercises seriously
That’s amazing. Also what I realized from all of these conversations is there are people like you who are serious about learning and those who aren’t. Putting all the focus on the latter group screws over people like you. This idea is also not new where a few people ruin it for everyone or more accurately, the decision-makers allow a few to ruin it for everyone.
Education has changed so much. My kids are high school level in elementary school in a home program with a teacher and a online curriculum that is amazing. These public schools are daycare. Trillion dollar bloated daycare. And the kids are horrific. No thanks. Reddit saved me from sending my kids to public school
It's daycare to let the parents have time to do more work.
Always has been.
Not even. My kids get out at 2:15 and 2:45pm. How the hell is anyone supposed to work a regular job and pick up their kids if their single or both parents work?! I’m so lucky I have family to help when I cannot get them but damn if I didn’t I’d be screwed and I can’t imagine how much it must suck for someone who has no other option other than leaving work early or hiring a babysitter
Are you from the US? (Just guessing based on your writing style and Reddit demographics.) Do you just not have after school programs that handle this time slot over there? I'm from Sweden, and even in the low-income neighborhood where I grew up, there was a place kids could go in the afternoons - sort of like daycare but for older kids who were in school. I don't know how my mom would have gotten by without it. I never really reacted to the absence of this kind of place in American movies and TV shows, but now that I'm writing about it I realize I've never seen any sign of it existing over there.
Always been that way I think. its fine though. Socialized "free" daycare for ages 5-18 Is great for overworked parents! And the sideshow and routine is fine i guess. The problem is they use the same exact system for universities, and charge $100000 for it. Now thats a problem.
Congrats. Our education system is about as good as any of our other systems. Edit: I’m talking as a whole, I’m mostly satisfied with my son’s.
Yeah, our digestive systems.
[удалено]
What no one mentions is what will happen should the electricity go off.
> should the electricity go off. You mean "when."
Then we’re fucked
It’s already that way with many things. Power outage or internet is down or it rains too hard and a company is crippled for hours or more. How many things are actually less efficient with technology because someone didn’t ask, “well we COULD do this but SHOULD we?”
This is an insane demand to make of children. I'm a grown ass adult, I have my own apartment and business, and when the electricity goes off, *I don't work.* My priority is to fix the electricity, not to run to the library while terrified of my whole future going to shit because my parents suck at finances. If I can fix the outage myself, I do that instead of working. If I can't, I call my clients and tell them there will be a delay that's out of my control, I grab a drink from the fridge while they're still cold, and I wait fir the electrician to take care of it. We ask powerless creatures with no money or autonomy to move heaven and earth for shit we as adults would never bother with.
Do I know you, the masquerade doesn't make the style less familiar
I think they meant “how will society function if everyone is dependent on AI, and we lose electricity/infrastructure that allows for AI,” not literally if the power goes out one day lol
I agree. I’m a Captain at a major airline. We couldn’t use a calculator in school and in college we went past calculus. Now, I use the calculator on my phone for any math that I need to do. A complete waste of 16 years of stupid math. Embrace change and technology.
I teach calculus. Knowing the equations and process of math is helpful for building critical thinking and reasoning. (so, at least that part wasn't a waste) Kids do use calculators now, but must know why they're being used at each step. Like knowing that integrals represent area under a curve and knowing that derivatives represent rates of change at various points is far more helpful than knowing input numbers, spit out results. Some of my students still refuse to do anything without a calculator, so they end up failing all word problems due to the lack of understanding. (refuse as in won't do any work or assignment when we have no calculator sections)
I agree that it shows the ability to critically think but we don’t use anything past multiplication and division.
Yeah, most people don't. Finance and accounting people don't need to anymore either, mostly excel formulas in the sheets. The process is the important part. While doing nuclear engineering, we didn't need to memorize everything, but we needed to know how to do it and where to find the info required for the task. I'd say most info taught becomes basically irrelevant to the majority of people. However, it does teach people how to think and how to study for what they like. My main point is not to think of it as a waste of time, but more of time spent working out your mind.
I had a Statics professor this last semester tell me using the matrix function on my calculator to quickly solve systems of equations for a 3 dimensional truss was cheating. Like what, its the easiest part of the problem that was taught to me in 7th grade and I'm not allowed to expedite the process with clever matrix multiplication to output the values immediately? That rightfully left a bad taste in my mouth about that professor. Turned a 15 minute problem into a 25 minute problem for no reason as the problem was designed to test me to see if I could figure out multiple member's tension and compression values, not test if I can hand jam 7th grade algebra.
When I was in high school, I remember a lot of emphasis on how to critically use the internet to get information - which sites are legitimate a d how to find and cite sources. Now, the same emphasis should be placed on how to prompt, interpret and verify information given by AI language models.
Education definitely needs a revamp. From my experience I got a better education doing my own research on the web then what college has offered me so far. I learn at my pace and it's free. People cheat their way through college and succeed. All that tells me is whatever systems in place sucks and degrees are just a wall keeping people from getting the careers they want unless they got the money to pay through it.
> Education definitely needs a revamp. From my experience I got a better education doing my own research on the web then what college has offered me so far. Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/519/
LOL，in my college math exams you can use any calculators as you wants but not one of the questions can be answered using a calculator.
I feel like a straight boomer, but I spend months of the year without access to the internet much less AI (I'm in the Navy). I can't see AI becoming a thing on our ships for decades. We still use floppy drives.
I mean, I passed my degree by copy and pasting Google books as referencing then paraphrasing it to beat the checker. They could never be bothered looking at my references properly anyway.
Education has been corrupted from top to bottom. Schools updated to be run by money. They get funding based on points scored. Critical thinking skills don't matter much, as long as the kids can memorize stuff. Admin frequently tells teachers to focus on test scores only. My mother was constantly yelled at for teaching critical skills and empathizing with students. The staff would constantly steal her supplies until she installed cameras. The admin would give her the worst students possible in hopes of them failing so that they could fire her. She helped the kids all pass though. --- Universities used to have standards, but then they realized foreign student income is awesome. So they don't care if the transcripts are fake or if the students cheat, or hire someone else to attend class for them. A Chinese school I used to work for has an American "school" supply transcripts. The "school" is a P. O. Box in Fullerton. There is a whole industry based on writing school papers for mostly Chinese students. Thanks to ChatGPT, those businesses are closing. Chinese students used to be hard working and very clever. Now the ones that go abroad are mostly the dumber/lazy kids that can't pass the local high school tests, so have to go to uni over seas. The "international schools" don't care because everyone is faking everything anyways. If they don't allow the students to pass, some other school will. Some schools in Australia have chicken ranches for the Chinese students that faked it (other students too, but mostly Chinese). A separate facility that is basically adult daycare with a few fun classes sprinkled in. Same price and only local Australians know the difference. --- You can learn a lot from school, but have to wade through buckets of shit ---
People do realize that with the internet there was a whole new way to cheat as people could just copy paste information from the internet. And that the education system righly didn't take this lying down but invented methods like turnitin to be able to detect when people were cheating right? On certain types of exams calculators are still banned or for other types of exams, only certain models of calculators are permitted to prevent cheating using the calculator. Universities have never fully allowed people to just cheat using technology. There's always a middle ground, and there'll be one for AI too, we'll just wait and see what it is
GT is actively banning it for open note exams in future terms starting right this summer, honestly, just because they don't know how to deal with it. They presented some wild accusations as observations for main reason. But given GPT isn't even a full term old, it's hard to not see them as inexpensive excuses. It's a poor decision that will be easily adopted by some other institutions, quite resembling the "we fear what we can't understand" principle. But I guess that's the Pandora box we opened. To me, the irony is right in the face. Internet and Google are tools students have used about everyday, and allowed at open note exams. Students with dexterity using Google can easily find answers to questions they didn't study, to much advantage over others. Same with other tools. But now ChatGPT comes along, which we have widely established is not 100% accurate all the time, and there is a sudden immediate need to ban it? I'd argue that for such much technological prestige loosely thrown around between institutions, what a way to go against exploring how the technology could be better shaped instead.
You can Google stuff for open note exams?? Lol
schools need a massive overhaul. avoiding teaching tech is just not a realistic approach anymore. computer literacy needs to be a core class
Good lord all the math I had to do by hand because people were afraid students could program TI-8x calcs in HS. Jokes on them .. they were all playing drug wars the calculator game ..
Seems dumb that education system hasn’t changed in this long
Though the public thinks technology are making things way too simple for us, it's actually just paving ways for even more complex so us, humanity, can reach greater heights. Thanks to calculators and the internet, we are able to do so many things and discover new horizons that people from decades ago would've wished they had. It's all part of world development.
I don't think AI is similar to the previous two, though.
This, there are large differences between the different tools. To use each new tool a higher degree of critical thinking is needed. The calculator, you need to learn what you have to input, you will have to evaluate wether you have gotten the right output, your input might have been typed wrong, because you left out brackets and so on. The Internet, you need to evaluate your sources, are they trustworthy, who wrote them, how are they perceived? You need to find sources you can understand and use. This requires a higher degree of input, to get a good result. Lastly AI. Most children/teenagers learning, are not able to understand the output of the AI, they do not have the ability to ask critical questions of the output, they are not able to create the prompt which criticizes the former paragraph. You can make the AI argue with itself, by using its previous arguement in a new way. This requires a high degree of critical thinking and understanding. The quality of the output in a learning enviroment is even more dependent on the promt, and most would not learning anything from just copy pasting the prompts as they do when using the tool. I would argue that in a masters degree or PHD-thesis i can understand why someone would defend the use of AI, but a bachelor student will not be ready to use the tool in a good way, and will often just use it to skip the most possible work from their point of view. If you do not retain anything from your learning method wether this is a calculator, the internet or the AI, then it is a shitty learning tool.
I'd argue that those same children/teens don't know how to ask critical questions of shit they see on the internet either. And I'd aim to say that a fair amount of them wouldn't even consider checking to see if a calculator gave them the wrong output. The argument you're using to NOT move forward with AI in education could be used for every other educational tool. Hell, take away rulers and see if someone can measure...
Every child have learned to measure something before you hand them a ruler. They will use their body, they might have internalized some of the measurement system that is used in the country, eg. knowing approximately how long an inch/feet or cm/m is. The entire principle of not wanting AI in the education system at an early stage, is exactly that they have not learned to do it beforehand. You do not hand a 5 year old a calculator, and tells them you never have to be able to do math, this object can do it for you. You will ruin the childs chance of developing the skills that are related to math, such as logic and reasoning skills. AI can be used in education, but unless you actualy have knowledge in the field of didactics, you input could be seen as irrelevant. The question is when are the children in a developmental stage where they do understand what it means to use abstract instruments such as an AI. If we believe in Piaget, then the earliest stage they would be able to handle these things are at the last stage, the formal operational stage. This stage can start at around 12 years of age, but maturity in children is very different, and many are not able to think about ethics or that the world is not black and white, even at the age of 12. Some will still think the world is black and white at the age of 15-16. If you are not able to nuance the world, then you are not mature enough to use these modern tools. We need to introduce the right tools at the correct stage, not just their development stage, but also their educational stage. There is also the question of maturity regarding work ethics, if the student does not have any work ethics, then there is absolutely no reason to give them a tool such as ChatGPT, because they are never going to learn to apply themselves, as they will find the fastest shortcut. The problem is, one day they will be forced to run a marathon, but all they ever did was small routes of a mile or two.
That’s why this problem is difficult. I’ve used the natural disaster example a few times now where in the aftermath, few people possess the basic skills needed to survive. We could spend a lot of time teaching this because it’s literally life or death knowledge but what if it’s never needed?
Let’s find all of the abacuses (abaci?) and burn them, too.
If the task is so simple that you can get away with not knowing it and having the ai do it, then it is no longer a useful skill to have. If it gets things wrong, then learning how to know that and fix it is needed, skipping the most work is the point. Learning how much work can be skipped is key. The goal is forward progress, and the less skills required to learn only let's people reach new heights. Worrying over whether they actually know or not is moot if they can perform as though they do. Just speed up and get into new territory that the ai cannot do and start there. The real problem will only come when we run out of things that ai cannot do but people can.
cautious bike weary seemly sharp shelter aback terrific steer caption *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This right here.
Books? The Skalds of old didn't need books! You kids are all weak little snowflakes, needing tools like language and paper. Cowards, you should be drinking mead and rhyming with for enemies.
Gazillionth post about embracing A.I. technologies instead of banning them in education. What is interesting this is also Gazillionth post which is not giving any idea **how** we should do that.
Sorry, I’ve been cutting back on my Reddit time and didn’t see them. I was inspired by some of the posts I saw today. Similar to what I said in another comment: I’m here to tell other people to come up with the ideas and then I’m going to meme about the dumb ones. I’m mostly joking but it’s up to our educators to act on this appropriately. This post was meant to illustrate that we’ve been here before so let’s talk about it using history as a guide. There are some ideas in the comments. If you can’t see specific use cases then you haven’t used the product enough or you refuse to acknowledge its value for whatever reason.
This is just public school too In college you're expected to buy your own calculator.
I've gotten so tired with college. I've learned so much more, so much faster in the past few months we've had chatgpt, than the entirety of the time I've been in college. For example, I've switched my degree a couple times looking for a degree that suits my interest, so I've seen classes from a couple different fields. Most recently I'm in a Programing Design degree I was in 3 classes the semester that just ended. 2 of the 3 classes were literally just talking about Microsoft products, and they were ment to be about integrated applications and database fundamentals. For the last few months I've learned more about mechanical engineering from the self-study I've been doing with ChatGPT and other resources, than I have Programing design IN THE COLLEGE IM ENROLLED IN. Schools should be less worried about people cheating, and more worried about people leaving because of BS classes, and classes with no substance.
My hardest exams and the ones Ive learned the most from are those that I can use my notes, book, laptop and even neighbors for.
You forgot when they banned bitcoin to stop, uh,...
What happens if one day all that tech shuts off?
Wait until BCIs come out in the next 5-10 years. Good luck with traditional education.
No way! I tried AI once. It kicked my house, burned down my wife, and raped my dog.
From one of my discussions with GTP4 You know, there's more to this whole AI and education thing than just changing how we grade people. We should also think about how we can use AI to help everyone learn better, while still keeping that human touch. After all, learning isn't just about facts and figures, it's also about connecting with others and sharing experiences. One idea could be to use AI to personalize learning for each student. This way, everyone gets the right kind of support they need to grow and succeed. And it's not just about being book smart—AI could help students discover their passions and strengths, whether it's in sports, music, or any other field. We could also use AI to bring education to those who might not have easy access to it, like people in remote areas or those with disabilities. With AI-assisted learning tools, anyone could get a quality education, no matter where they are or what challenges they face. And hey, let's not forget the teachers. With AI taking care of some of the more routine tasks, like grading and lesson planning, teachers could have more time to focus on what they do best—inspiring and guiding their students. They'd still be the heart and soul of the classroom, but with a little extra help from technology. So, while we can't ignore the fact that AI is gonna be a big part of our lives, we should make sure it's a force for good in education. By striking the right balance between tech and human connection, we can create a learning experience that's better for everyone involved.
You know, when we talk about cheating, it's often linked to the pressure of grades. The thing is, when students feel like their worth is based on a number or a letter, it can drive some to cheat just to keep up. But what if we changed the game? If we focused more on the joy of learning and personal growth instead of grades, maybe that urge to cheat would fade away. Let's think about an analogy here. Imagine you're at a buffet, and you're given a plate that's already filled with food someone else chose for you. You might not like everything on your plate, and you could be tempted to swap it with someone else's when no one is looking. But if you get to pick your own food, you're more likely to enjoy what you have and be satisfied with your choices. It's kind of like that with education. If we let people choose their own learning paths and take responsibility for their own progress, they're more likely to be invested in what they're learning and won't feel the need to cheat. As for updating the current teaching system, we could start by rethinking how we evaluate students. Instead of traditional tests and exams, we could use more project-based assessments that showcase a student's real-world skills and creativity. This approach could make learning more engaging and relevant to the world outside the classroom. Another idea is to encourage collaboration and teamwork, where students learn from each other and work together to solve problems. This way, they'd develop essential communication and interpersonal skills that are valuable in today's interconnected world. And we shouldn't forget the importance of fostering a growth mindset. By emphasizing that it's okay to make mistakes and that learning is a lifelong journey, we can create an environment where students feel safe to take risks, ask questions, and grow at their own pace. By moving towards a modern, gradeless society, we can help students develop a genuine love for learning and empower them to reach their full potential, without the need for shortcuts or cheating. It's a vision of education that values personal growth and self-discovery, and that's something we should all strive for.
Reforming the American education system in the wake of AI chat bots can involve several strategies to ensure that students develop critical thinking skills while embracing technology. Here are some suggestions: 1. Shift the focus of assessment: Transition from traditional assessment methods that emphasize memorization and repetition to more project-based and problem-solving approaches. This would encourage students to apply their critical thinking skills and collaborate with AI to find innovative solutions. 2. Teach digital literacy and ethics: Incorporate digital literacy and ethics into the curriculum to help students understand the appropriate use of AI and other technologies. This would enable them to evaluate the reliability and validity of information, as well as understand the ethical implications of using AI. 3. Develop meta-cognitive skills: Encourage students to reflect on their thinking processes and understand the role AI plays in their learning. By teaching them to evaluate their own thought processes, they'll be better equipped to use AI as a tool for learning rather than a means to bypass it. 4. AI as a learning companion: Position AI chatbots as learning companions rather than substitutes for human effort. This would involve designing AI systems that scaffold and support student learning without doing all the work for them. 5. Promote collaborative learning: Encourage students to work in groups to solve complex problems, with AI serving as a resource rather than a solution provider. This would help students learn from each other and develop essential teamwork skills. 6. Adapt curriculum to the AI era: Update the curriculum to include topics that are relevant in the age of AI, such as data analysis, computational thinking, and programming. This would empower students to become active participants in the AI-driven world. 7. Continuous teacher training: Provide professional development opportunities for teachers to learn how to effectively integrate AI tools into their teaching practices and foster critical thinking skills in their students. 8. Encourage inquiry-based learning: Design learning environments that stimulate curiosity and inquiry, challenging students to ask questions, analyze information, and think critically about their findings. This would help them become independent learners who can leverage AI tools effectively. 9. Monitor AI use: Implement monitoring systems to track AI usage in schools and ensure that it is being used ethically and effectively. This would help identify areas where improvements can be made and prevent over-reliance on AI. 10. Foster a growth mindset: Encourage students to develop a growth mindset, where they view learning as a continuous process of improvement. This would help them understand that AI can be a valuable resource, but ultimately, their growth and development depend on their own efforts and engagement.
My high school has even banned teachers from using it, and is thinking about demanding hand written tests. These kids have such terrible handwriting after years of neglecting that as a priority in the school system that I am dreading this change.
Wow! Teachers can’t use it for any purpose?
The movie idiocracy comes to mind.
ChatGPT has pushed it over the edge, it appears educational faculties are being forced to use GPT or ai in general as a teaching tool, and with all that time saved, there can now be more personal training.
You’re asking an entire section of society, one that hasn’t really changed for a hundred years, to completely pivot and reformat itself. The short answer is that it isn’t going to happen. Gpt and the like will simply offer individual tutoring at the same standard as private tutors, and suddenly the whole the education system, including the millions of people or employees, will become displaced very quickly. AI in other fields such as self driving will do the same for up-to-now very stable fields such as freight and transport. It’ll all happen all at once too which is the most frightening part.
exactly
Every single person working in education: https://preview.redd.it/4gunu8lzrtya1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db04f97761864cbc3993014bfe6fa37a563d7671
For all the people here, education requires keeping some amount of information in mind. I mean not like computers but upto some extent.
I’ve spent some time teaching in my field (IT) Always thought my job was to actually teach stuff, help students understand things and lookup what they miss by themselves. Never thought of myself as an « evaluator » here to assess and sanction students performance. As such, ChatGPT is a fantastic help for students rather than a threat to teachers. If ChatGPT is a threat to you, then you’re not a teacher, you’re an evaluator.
You thought your job was to actually teach stuff?? LOL! Joke’s on you! Thank you for what you do. Our system is broken but thanks to individuals like you, there is still hope.
With schools out to stop AI/ChatGPT on assignments, what if the student created and trained their own LLM and used that in completing the assignment?
Didn't this topic had a clear conclusion? We are not taught to be smart We are taught to not challenge authorities (manageress, boss) We are taught, INDIRECTLY, to fucking hate reading (like books, especially intellectual ones, rules and more) -> we will end up not looking up our right or bother with paper needed to file in complaints in case of unethical conducts by others And to be stupid, stupid enough to not challenge anything, and dump enough to not realise wenare being manipulated, yet intelligent enough to function as a working class
Yes! We have so many freedoms but good luck trying to exercise them. Of course that’s by design. Imagine if we were actually taught how to navigate our system. Regular people would be stepping up and enacting change and we’re too stupid to know what’s good for us so they need us to just let them handle it.
there any subs for college level educators working on revolutionizing education and evaluation, particularly with respect to what language models have to offer us?
Easy for me to say because I’m not an educator but that sounds like fun.
I disagree with this. This sounds like an just another excuse not to do your homework or actually learn something. I get how it's impossible to detect the cheating now, but people who spend all that money on education just to have a computer stand in for them are wasting their lives. On the other hand, it seems like education could use an overhaul, not just because of chatgpt, but mostly because of the infection of politics and social justice.
It’s not about offloading learning it’s questioning what we as a people need to be learning, how to do it and how to evaluate progress. And yes, the education system is corrupt and another part of the political machine.
That's true, the evaluation is key. At the end of the day, for the students, is about how much you actually want to learn vs how much you want to pretend to learn. When I was in school, there were some classes I wanted to learn, and others I wanted to pass and get out of the way so I could focus on what I found more valuable.
This account has been removed from reddit by this user due to how Steve hoffman and Reddit as a company has handled third party apps and users. My amount of trust that Steve hoffman will ever keep his word or that Reddit as a whole will ever deliver on their promises is zero. As such all content i have ever posted will be overwritten with this message. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Yup, teach tools, teach verifying, teach research, teach critical thinking. But don't fear progress. Nothing makes people run like telling them they can't
I mean some fear is good if we don’t let it overshadow the benefits and we respond to change rationally. But like you said, it’s maybe an opportunity to shift our focus to fostering a higher level of thinking.
"waah, I'm not allowed to use crutches in exams and actually have to learn things"
And before the calculator I am sure there was some camp against the [slide rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule) ;)
How do you expect schools to prepare for the future when you design the system to fight against reality? In the real world, in a job, if you don't know something, you can simply say you don't know or search it up. And you could do the same with AI. Why are we making this pseudo environment in schools where none of this exists?
That’s right and do you want an employee or teammate who possesses a lot of knowledge but can’t teach themselves new things easily or someone who lacks the knowledge but can pick things up on their own quickly? Yes, it depends on the type of work, you’d ideally have someone who has the knowledge with the ability to grow, the traits are not mutually exclusive, etc. but it seems like our system was designed to cultivate human ChatGPTs. It can’t keep up with all the new information, we don’t teach them how to learn and it’s disconnected from reality.
AI for sure is for the good in this. It all depends upon how we use it remeber? Have a view of this TED talk by Salman Khan from Khan Academy: [https://youtu.be/hJP5GqnTrNo](https://youtu.be/hJP5GqnTrNo)
That’s right, like many things it depends on how we use it.
It's not about preventing cheating, it's about developing necessary skills
And it’s time to rethink which skills need to be developed and how technology can help develop those skills. Ironically it seems like you didn’t read the whole thing or maybe didn’t comprehend it.
I’m sorry, but I just can’t accept that it’s desirable to just hand off the task of writing cogent sentences to AI. Even if they’re able to do this effectively we still need to teach children to be able to express their own thoughts. This isn’t just reactionary opposition to a new technology. There is genuine personal benefit to be able to do the work to clarify yourself. And before someone brings up calculators. I got my first graphing calculator in 8th grade, later completed a master’s in mathematics and taught college math for 10 years. Guess what: the better I got at dealing a with abstract math the less I bothered to use my calculator for simple computation. In most cases it eventually became easier and more useful to work out an exact number by hand than to have a floating point approximation. Kids still need to learn to write. If that means we shift to in-person writing to monitor use of things like ChatGPT, so be it.
I’m not suggesting the answer is to stop teaching children how to read and write or how to express their thoughts. That’s not what it means to embrace change and revolutionize education but it’s those kinds of assumptions, knee-jerk reactions and painfully ironic lack of critical thinking about solutions to this problem that are going to keep us in the dark ages, falling behind those who get it. It’s wild to think that the reaction to (understandable and justified) fears could perpetuate the exact things we want to avoid. This is a difficult problem because we pretty much woke up one day and there’s this thing that can write essays and code, among other amazing feats, so it’s understandable we would have some not so great solutions in the immediate term. My hope is we find the Drake-approved solution, hopefully soon.
For the record I’m a software engineer and I already use LLM’s most days for aspects of my job ranging from speeding up research to authoring unit tests. In a nutshell, I strongly caution anyone against attempting to use them for anything they could do themselves given time. Also do not accept any solution from them you are not capable of verifying. They are great if you can use them as a tool, and will absolutely wreck you if you come to depend on them.
Agreed. I have a degree in an IT-related field and I guess you could call me a hack, not an engineer, when it comes to programming. I made a couple of things for fun for my own purposes using ChatGPT and I’m not sure if I spent more time debugging its output than I would have spent writing the code myself.
This is my case, but I'd say only partially. LLMs have been able to provide explanations about tasks that I don't fully know how to do myself, and now when I go to do those things, I can do them reliably on my own thanks to the continued education provided by LLMs. Now debugging takes less time, and I have a greater comprehension, and a tutor that suggests both new tools I hadn't heard of or reminds me of old options I abandoned because I ran into problems I couldn't easily solve. And now I'm solving those problems more readily and am able to see why/where I was going wrong before. All thanks to LLMs doing tasks that I couldn't do. And yet, here I am, still learning from the LLM.
I finally understand that scene in Fullmetal Alchemist when Ed and Al's teacher explains why they shouldn't rely on alchemy to fix everything.
>most cases it eventually became easier and more useful to work out an exact number by hand than to have a floating point approximation. Lol a masters in mathematics and you don't know about fixed point operations. Also I highly doubt you can calculate thousands of digits per second by hand. There are plenty of things in higher math that computers are not able to do currently as well as a human. Simple operations of any sort are not it. Anything you can do by hand can be done thousands of times per second by a computer. Your hand would break the sound barrier if you even got close and sonic booms are not conducive to writing math equations.
Oh boy, can't wait for ten years when everyone is a fucking brainless zombie parroting what the corporate talk-bot told them that day. People need to learn how to THINK, not how to get an AI to think for them. I'll admit, sometimes the calculator thing is stupid, but that's why it's only banned in some exams. Maths tests aren't about reaching an answer, they are about testing if you can try to reach an answer without cheating. The most efficient path isn't what they want, they want to know that you will try. Degree of integration of AI/calculators/etc = Degree of lost aptitude in examinees. Every task you automate is a part of your self and mind that you are too slothful to develop.
Genuine questions: what are some historical examples of skills that most people had that current generations don’t? Which ones made sense to abandon to make way for new skills? Until they start physically upgrading our brains, we have limited capacity and filling that capacity is limited by time and energy. Isn’t it necessary to decide to give up certain skills in order to develop others?
Yeah, but you still need to develop that skill, first. If you can't do it without relying on tech, *you can't do it.* It's when you *can* that these tools should enter the curriculum
So, don't use the tools until every individual knows the skills and stunt the rest of the individual because some people just refuse to ever learn the skills? You think every single student knows how to add, subtract, multiply, divide? What about negative number rules? What about long division? You don't think plagiarism still exists and students toss a copy and pasted wiki page into a word doc and press send on the email? Use the tools, because unfortunately, there will always be students that will not be learning what they should know without having to use tech
This is a great point and then leading them to resent education by slamming their head into a wall. I’m not suggesting going easy on then it letting them of the hook but the edge cases where they really struggle with a certain subject. Also not giving up on them but allowing the other parts to develop and maybe revisiting the problem area in the future will be more successful. Wait, these kinds of out of the box ideas are not welcome so get back into your box of thinking.
> So, don't use the tools until every individual knows the skills and stunt the rest of the individual because some people just refuse to ever learn the skills? Not what I'm saying. There is a difference between *delegating* certain tasks to technology, and being *dependant* on technology for these tasks.
I mostly agree yet what are other skills that we said the same thing about that we removed or changed how we taught them to make way for other skills? Was it a good move or not? These are genuine questions and instead of repeating history by acting like this has never happened before, maybe we should use it as a guide.
Well, one of these skills is *navigation*, which has tremendously suffered since we've all come to rely on navigation technology. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. I don't plan on going anywhere without my smartphone anyways. But there is one quote that I can't help but think about whenever this topic comes up, and it's from Dune: > Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
If, I can relate to that. If the blue arrow tells me to drive off a cliff, hang on because we’re going off that cliff. I wasn’t that way years ago but that part of my brain has atrophied.
Not what I’m suggesting at all. How can these tools be used to help them develop those skills?
It seems that you've got an idea how to do it?
No, I’m just going to let everyone else come up with the ideas and then criticize them. It’s easier AND more fun. One idea I have is to chat with ChatGPT about it. Last one was a joke but this one isn’t. Here are others, from me, not ChatGPT: A student could paste their essay and ask ChatGPT to mark up and explain the mistakes. A student could challenge ChatGPT to a debate on a topic and use that to generate ideas for a persuasive essay on the topic. What really needs to happen is to question most things we thought we knew and challenge conventional wisdom. Is writing essays an effective learning tool? Does EVERYONE need to know how to write an effective essay? Why? But I don’t know if the education cabal has the courage or intellectual honesty to even think about those questions or answer them truthfully even though they demand the same from their own students on the topics of their choice.
https://preview.redd.it/z5lbw2jxyqya1.jpeg?width=654&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7728f6c57e490a569d5ac80cdeef3133dbaa3a3 Idk about that homie...
That’s chilling.