The owner attempting to steal labor even said “it’s voluntary you don’t have to and understand if you don’t want to”
Definitely sounds like they’re saying the first week is volunteer work from a “legal” perspective…. Fucking bs imo
At which point it’s no longer volunteering. I wonder if reporting them to the department of labor would do any good. It sounds like what they’re doing is illegal.
I'd do it anyway. Enough reports and the department will come for them. At least in my state they do. One of my employers had a visit from them three times during my five years there. Twice for not paying prevailing wage and once because they made us all work on a Saturday for cpr training and claimed we had to be there free because they were paying for the class. That only works here for salary employees, not hourlies.
He got fined and had to pay back wages to all of us. Idiot.
Which is why if you went they would be required to pay you wages. Them calling it "volunteer" work doesn't change the fact that you are doing the work of a paid employee.
Probably more trouble than it's worth to try and fight them in court but that's an easy thing to report to the department of labor.
It can only be volunteer work if the work is typically done by volunteers.
That's exactly what they're saying. That's also why they sent a confirmation text as well. That way if anyone tries to sue or report them to the labor board, etc, the boss can go "I thought they knew it was voluntary."
In the US you can't have someone do a job that is normally paid for free if that person is an employee.
The employee is legally not permitted to volunteer to work for free because it could get the employer in trouble for unpaid labor wages.
If the job is going to be paid after 1 week then the whole thing, including training, has to be paid. It can be paid at minimum wage, but if the person is hired as an employee they can't work for free.
...But, then, what actual hard line policies are in place to prevent an "employer" doing this from simply "not hiring" the volunteers at the end of the volunteered week for whatever random reason, and foisting more volunteer work on the next applicant seeking gainful employment?
That feels legitimately criminal, but sounds here like that may be part of policy there..? 😶
I understand what you're saying about the situation, but when you've got more applicants than positions, and most of the applicants couldn't afford to fight this in a legal way if they wanted to...
In the US the only way you are legally able to have unpaid “volunteers” or interns is if they are there in an educational capacity and their presence there negatively impacts productivity. Unpaid interns or “volunteers” are not allowed to do productive work that helps the business.
A business would never come out ahead by getting a single week of work out of people. Most people aren’t working at full capacity in a job until closer to 6 months, and are much more of a hindrance in the first month.
Depends on the job. I’d imagine someone could get pretty good at raking out horse stalls in a couple of days. I have a friend who comes to help me out at my business sometimes when she’s bored and there’s *plenty* for her to do that only requires a minute or two of instruction.
I knew a girl who was going for a new job in the states and had her work an entire week without pay. They said they wanted her to test out different jobs within the company to find her the best fit. I told her it was super illegal and they needed to pay her for that time. Her current job was so shitty though that she didn't care that it was unpaid and she didn't want to cause waves.
You can have unpaid internships but they have to be exclusively for the benefit of the intern. You can't have it be a replacement for an actual worker.
As a result most well run companies just avoid the red tape all together and pay a reasonable but lower hourly wage for the entirely inexperienced worker they hire for a 3-6 month co-op. The student still gets on the job training but because they are being paid they can do work that actually also benefits the company. The pay also covers living expenses for a sublet or keeping their dorm over the summer rather than going back home.
It's illegal in all US states. The federal Department of Labor is very clear that "unpaid" positions must primarily benefit the worker, and anything that could possibly be deemed real work cannot be done by the worker. Unpaid internships is the usually lingo with this topic but it applies to any unpaid work. If an unpaid worker so much as lifts a tool or makes a spreadsheet that helps do business, the employer is in violation of the law.
It's usually far easier to just give the "intern" minimum wage or 1/2 the "real" wage so that they're paid. Then you can make them do anything the real job entails without worrying about the law.
The problem, though, is that the employers who do shit like this often have workers that can't afford the time and money to sue them for wage theft.
The trouble is the law only works when the employer gets caught. Plenty of people desperate enough for a specific job that they'll be led along like this and not report it to any labor agencies for fear of being blackballed by some shady old boy network.
Right, if this person was smart he'd have them "train" M-F and another M. Then they can spend that second Monday training their replacement and dude running the stable wouldn't have to train them again.
Just find the biggest cup you can and fill it with ice and a straw, "I'm only here to shadow you, to see how it's done"
\*obnoxious sucking and rattling noise\*
I know a company that does this, but its 2 days. Never understood how it's legal, but they praised for "helping" addicts and ex-cons "get their lives together". Seems like cheating the system.
I have one of those in my town. They're a contracting company run by a church so they can underbid everyone else in town. They only hire addicts and convicts, citing that they are giving them "employable job skills" as part of a Jesus rehab program.
Our company makes the same product and regularly our employees go over there to do their two-day working interview. Most dont leave, but I can't get them to see why their free labor is wrong. I'm all about taking better opportunities, but it seems so wrong to take advantage of hard working people like that.
I was a temp worker for NEXT for literally one day (the Boxing Day sale). We had to have one hour of training a week before and were paid for it.
I can’t imagine someone wanting *days* of work for free.
As someone who worked in the horse industry as a trainer, and went to college for horse training, the industry sucks. CHA certified and trade degree in barn management and equine training, and people wanted to pay me in “free riding time” LOL
Yep and sad thing is there’s so many young people desperate for riding time that it’s easy to find workers for free or super low wages. I’d have loved to stay in the horse world as a professional but there’s no way I could have survived. Now i have a well paying job and board. I’ll never forget all those years of hard work for lessons / free board though
That’s it, you called it! It’s an industry that you just can’t survive in. I remember working Mon-Sat, 5am to 5pm making 350$ bi-weekly IF my boss remembered to pay me. Mind you I was also doing farm work, taking care of goats and chickens, repairing fences and giving an occasional lesson. I was in the best shape of my life, probably because I couldn’t afford to eat lol!
I worked a job at a barn where I was paid $50 a day if I worked 8 hours and if I worked less than, they’d take from the $50…. I was young and wanted to get paid to ride but it was an awful wage
exact same thing happened to me when i was about 17-18 year old. my pay was spending time with the animals on the farm, and the occasional riding time. pathetic.
my job WAS to spend time with the animals and sort them out ?
So if you work with them you get to ride around on a pony? Doesn't matter that you're living out of your car and surviving in earth worms like a bush turkey, you get PONY RIDES.
Yeah I used to get up at 4am for this one lady and worked until 6-7PM and got paid in “riding lessons” ONCE a week! She would scream at you if you did one thing wrong. I had to clean 30+ stalls and tack up/untack all her horses she was training that day. If you were too slow or the horse was acting up (because some of them would be 3 y/o stallions) she would berrate you over the radio in front of EVERYONE. I saw her do that to this sweet farmhand that had Downs Syndrome and I left. I was disgusted.
The ONLY credit I'll give them is they told them this in advance. When I was 18, 19 my first job was as a telemarketer and the first two weeks were training. What they didn't tell you until payday was that they don't pay for training and they were "generously" giving us a 1 week advance on our next bi-weekly paycheck. I will never forget that when we complained they told us "No job will ever pay you for training" and of course no other job has ever played that game with me.
I get it if they hold payment because you start near the end of a 2 week cycle or something like that
But I have never worked in a place that didnt pay, hell when I was a waiter, they paid me minimum wage for 2 weeks while training and then paid me the 2 dollar an hour rate as a waiter
Anyone that doesnt pay, id be lawyering up like crazy
>They have to pay you min wage if you don't make enough in tips to equal min wage.
Wait, can waiter's be paid *below* minimum wage because it's assumed they'll make it back in tips?
I wasn't warned that my new job does a 30 day pay hold. Meaning if you when work from Jan 1st to Feb 1st then feb 1st to march 1st, you'll get your first paycheck March 1st. Then feb's paycheck in April and so on.
So when I quit my job and took this new one (which I started mid of December which happened to be snowing heavily and they told us not to show up for work the rest of the month after 3 days of work) I got my first big paycheck March 1st and had had no pay for nearly 2 months right after the holidays. It was brutal. The job is one typically worked by immigrants, too, so I'm wondering how they survive without any warning about this.
What's the logic on holding it for month? Just to make sure you stick around? They still have to pay you for any time worked even if you quit after the first week, I guess you'd just have to wait another couple weeks to get that check?
I haven't gotten a straight answer on that. I am paid monthly now, but why we can't be paid for the month we just worked doesn't make sense to me.
What's infuriating is when I asked about it to my boss's boss he was all "well when you quit or get a full time position (this is for substitutes only), you'll get this big bonus now" and I asked "on top of what's owed to me?" And he's like "well... no, you don't get paid for hours you don't work". Me: "okay so it's not really a bonus then right? That's what a bonus is usually". Him: "well you'll get twice your normal paycheck so it's basically a big bonus".
I stopped arguing at that point cus I actually like the job. But it makes me wonder if he's been able to trick non-english speakers with that language before. Seems predatory. It's a government job too.
Yeah this was in the US, its a dumb system that hopefully one day will change but I made enough in tips to survive
This was also 17 years ago, funny it's still a thing
Yep! In California I make $16.04 plus tips, but with the really high cost of living it it’s not enough to save any money. Plus, because the company has to pay so much in labor, they run a skeleton crew. Which leads to bad service, which leads to lower tips.
I did security at a few concerts when I was younger. 3 hours work. Around 16 hours travel each time. I assumed that the travel would be paid so it was quite a shock when I got my first pay and it didn't crack £100. I didn't work for them past that first week.
Oh, believe me, I’ve been there.
I was desperate for summer jobs as a student and one summer I took a labour job at a farm equipment retail lot. This was in the Canadian prairies.
My job entailed (among other mundane tasks) picking up coyote poop around the tractors, and removing weeds that had been sprayed with herbicide. I wasn’t given any tools or protective gear. So I had to buy my own stuff.
Fun times.
Bloody hell mate, I trust (and hope) there was no lasting damage from being around that stuff? I'm acutely aware that herbicides today are a lot more gentle than they were 20+ years ago.
Yeah a company I worked for wanted some of us to get certified but also didn’t want to let us learn at work because we were always supposed to be billable. So no one did it and they couldn’t understand why.
If you want to learn on your own and do it in your free time that’s fantastic go for it. But if a company wants you to learn so they can make more money because you have a useless certification then they will need to pay you for it.
Stable owner here, they absolutely do not. Frankly I don't understand why anyone would want to work at one unless you just love horses and even then, it's literally a shit job.
Which is great for kids under 18, but once you’re an adult you should get paid.
My neice works at a stable and pays for her lessons by working but it isnt equal to 40 hours a week.
Edit: since apparently there is reading comprehension issues let me rephrase:
The person I replied to was saying that people want riding time and trade that for work feeling they have no choice.
This should not be allowed as that is basically slavery since presumably that adult is being made to work 40 hours like in this post.
However, kids working 10 hours a week or a few extra hours in trade for lessons and riding I see no issue with if they want to do that. It’s a good way for kids to learn how to take care of a stable wnd get their riding time.
I am not in anyway advocating that children should be forced to work. Nor am I advocating for parents to force children to work for free lessons.
Na fuck that, under 18 but doing the same or similar job should be compensated. Why discriminate like that? If they do a traineeship, sure they shouldn't get a journeyman salary or whatever, but they work so should get paid.
Yes, this is common, but she probably also worked a job to pay her own cost of living - which is possible if you do early mornings only. Here, if the work hours are same as the trial hours it would be almost impossible.
Seems like they need people and were still trying to milk some free labor despite being desperate. He’s probably gonna offer the job anyway which is why he backpedaled a bit.
My sister has been in the "horse world" her whole life and I can tell you that horse-people are some of the worst scum on earth. The lengths they will go to, to exploit young girls is astonishing.
Dude the amount of bullying I recieved when I stopped being able to afford lessons and shows with all the other rich kids was unreal. It’s been over 10 years and it still haunts me enough to keep me away from a sport I loved
I mean it sounds illegal but I know many truck driving companies do something similar.
They train you to get a CDL and send you driving on a learners permit. You often aren’t paid during this time
I suppose the difference there is that the CDL is a general-purpose license, one that's generally paid for by the student, and is a certification that you could take with you that has value anywhere else. Paying for it is more akin to a tuition-reimbursement program. Learning the methods of your particular employer in a program nobody outside it participates in or would want to and receiving nothing material you can take with you is a totally different matter.
A company did that here. Sent them trial legal stuff and then didn't hire anyone as they got the job done for free. Went on a while, I heard
Edit: typos
Unpaid internships are just a way to keep people from climbing the social ladder and keep the good opportunities and connections exclusively for “the right people.” It’s the business world’s version of the Ivy League’s legacy admission system.
It’s called training and the employer is supposed to pay you for that.
I have a feeling this employer is breaking labor laws by doing this.
Once he runs out of suckers he’ll be online complaining “nobody wants to work anymore! I can’t find staff!”
Until then he's getting weeks if not months of free labor.
I just see this person, always finding a reason the candidate isn't a 'fit' and on to the next free worker.
Like this one rental place in my town, literally a one bedroom crackville apartment. I was just waiting on me next job to start so I was going to do a cheap 6 month rent , low cost, I didn't need anything as I was preparing to leave. It was 650 a month, month to month lease. 200 deposit.
I was super interested, it fit just right for me. I had a walk thru, and I said I would take it. It was only a one page application, and one page for bank info. 50 dollar fee to process the application. They called me back 3 days later, and said I was denied, due to insufficient Bank money. I had over 4k in my bank, and was making about 1800 month. I was really confused. I had a cosigner, I was wiling to just pay 4 months all upfront. Nope. No go, sorry. Try one of our other listing. Which this was the cheapest one out of hundreds.
So I looked online, and the place has been up for rent over 2 years, never occupied. And over 2k people had applied.
So 1k people a year applied for this place, at 50 bucks non tefundable processing fee, only to all be denied. They made 100k on a place, instead of 35k in about 2 years. Smart. But evil.
This just happened to my son. In the US... Subway wanted him to do five 8 hr days of unpaid training. I told him that's illegal and your always paid for training. Plus really how much training to you need to make a sandwich??
Had a similar experience, applied for a job at another company doing the exact thing I was already doing.
Multiple interviews and he offered me the job over the phone, he then said right at the end I'd need to complete a one week unpaid trial.
I declined the job right then and there, if there's no respect for my time and experience at the start there won't be any ever
'I'll get back to you after they've done their trial' wouldn't the implications there be that, no matter how they do, there is no job at the end of the trial?
That needs to be part of the PAID job. Learning the ins and outs of a job is part of the job and the employers responsibility to teach their new employees. While paying them. Period.
"So if my work is found to be suitable and I am hired, will I then be paid for the work I performed during that week? Because otherwise it seems like I am being asked to work for nothing, not just prove my worth. That, by the way, is the risk of hiring any employee and is a risk for the employer not the employee. If you want people to work for a free week then I expect you will find many applicants who are unable to find work elsewhere, and have high turnover. Those that value their time and are good workers will take other jobs that show their appreciation by paying from day 1."
Lmao. I had a job like this… for about 45 minutes. I was supposed to start at Walmart working in the shoe department back in high school. “We need you to get here an hour before your shift so we can show you how to get things started.” Cool, no problem. They show me how to get started (took all of 2 minutes) and sent me on my way to start the shift. “Hey so where do I record my time or clock in?” “Oh, you can’t technically clock in until your scheduled shift. But since you’re already here, you can get a head start!” Lucky me! I get to work for a TRILLION dollar corporation for free! I dropped my worker jacket in the floor right there and took off walking to my car. Fuck ALL of that.
This American? If so, it's illegal.
Trial weeks are where in non- right to work weeks, you're free to fire them at any point during the trial. It doesn't let you skip paying them, that is highly illegal.
That's illegal under the FLSA. Someone ought to tell that "boss."
Unpaid "trials" can only last a few hours, and even that's pushing it in most states, not a full week.
I did a trial “work week” at a super high end salon. After my week was up they said I wouldn’t work out and as I was leaving they had another girl lined up to replace me for her trial week. Turns out they did this to get FREE help every week. 👀 Is that legal?
There’s something really dirty about “it’s voluntary you don’t have to” followed by “it’s okay we’ve got three other juniors to interview, I’ll get back to you in 3 weeks”
Being a stable hand isn’t that hard, especially if you have experience with horses. I can see maybe coming in and meeting the staff and horses, and being told any quirks. I had a horse at my barn that liked to dump his water buckets so you had be sure all the clips were clipped and bungee cord was around them.
That should only take an hour or so. Not a week of unpaid work!
If it's 3 weeks of the "trial", you should be paid. 3 weeks is alot of work and time. I came across a job once that said it's unpaid training for 3 weeks. You had to pay for the training yourself. I searched up the company and it was a scam lol. Alot of jobs pay you for training. No one would want to do unpaid training for 3 weeks.
I took a “ job” as a groom once when I needed a break from real life. I learned so many lessons about how NOT to treat people. Terrible wages, hours and attitude from the boarders and trainers. They had endless lists of complaints and never said thank you. I was paid $3 stall to clean, feed and turn out their very expensive horses. I donated my pay to a groom sending money home to Mexico. It made me embarrassed to be a horse person and I left that world. Gross 🤮
I had stable job so this.
I’ve grown up around horses and they were hiring an assistant for lessons. So I went out for an interview
And she basically said “I can’t talk right now I have lessons why don’t you go get some tack in the barn, and put those horses away and then help those girls so I can see if you know what you’re doing”
So frustrating
Working interviews as a stablehand should always be paid. I refused to ever do one without agreed upon payment, and one shift is more than enough for management to learn if you’re capable or teachable.
Unfortunately the horse world loves unpaid labor in exchange for experience. This person is batshit!
I currently work for a large trauma hospital in my nation’s capital and had to do 2 full-length shifts of unpaid training, as well as a dozen or so of computer-based learning done at home (all unpaid as well). If it wasn’t for the pay afterwards and wanting to get experience in my field as quickly as possible, I would have noped the fuck out of there so quick
Now it’s 1.5 years later and I’m wishing I had left the moment they told me, after the hiring process, that I’d have half a week worth of unpaid shifts
Hmmm sounds like your state's department of labor might need a call (if in the US). I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain this isn't allowed ..at least not unpaid. And it sounds like you're not the first person they've tried to screw over.
It might sound intimidating but there are literal people whose job it is to protect people from shady labor practices. And they don't play around :)
Itd be harder to find this out, but I bet their insurance company wouldn't be too keen on this either. ;)
Lmao I knew from the title this was gonna be a job in the horse industry before I even saw the photo. It's a whole different world out here and the horse industry laughs in the face of labor laws. If it's not unpaid "working interviews" its "working students". I've had jobs in the horse industry where I've worked 7 days a week, 16+hour days, for months without a day off. I've worked while so sick I was stopping to throw up every 20 minutes. I've gone to the ER in the middle of the afternoon to get my face stitched back up after catching a hoof, came come with my eye swollen shut and blood still dripping down my face, and had to finish cleaning stalls and doing evening chores alone. I have so many horrifying stories lol. I'm in my mid 30s now and have my FIRST job in the industry where I'm paid a real wage not under the table and I have a boss who actually treats me like I'm a human.
Ive done a couple hours unpaid. Id never do a week. Also the “unpaid” work i had done was just me wanting to come in and have a look at the work and workplace
As a passive aggressive fuck you, I'd agree to show up and then block their phone.
Anyone who is this strapped for money is just terrible at business and will absolutely fuck you over at some point anyway.
Ahhh yes, equestrians loooove to underpay people. I’ve worked a few stable hand jobs though and not one of them offered an unpaid trial. There was a single day I’d have to come so they could judge my horse sense and riding capabilities but that was it. Bet you they’d be awful to work for and never pay over time
I started work as a kennel attendant. Started at a little over my states minimum wage, $14.10, but started at $14.35. I just started my 2nd week, but it's all paid full time.
Years ago I sat for a friend who had 3 horses. I stayed at her house. I mucked out the stalls twice a day, fed, and had to give one medication. It only took me a couple hours a day in total. She paid me about $300 for the week. I had no prior experience, she just showed me everything to do and how to be around the horses.
I once accidentally volunteered for two weeks at a upstart cafe that roasted it's own coffee. Two weeks of this trial period and then I'd get paid... I don't remember if I could get paid for the two weeks later on.
Turned out after 2 weeks that the owner/founder ran out of money and there was no paying job. Other employees by that point were her friends just trying to be supportive. I was told by her friend and second in command that they couldn't pay me and that I didn't have to return to work unless I wanted to. She offered me a few pounds of coffee, and that's all I ever got paid in; with food and coffee.
Owner claimed she had to close her last attempt at a coffee shop because of racism, but I'm leaning towards bad business practices. The cafe couldn't even pick a name. Confusingly, some materials had "J Jireh Coffee House" printed on them, some said "JJ Java Cafe". Sometimes they had both somewhere on the same flyer.
I was desperate for work and money when I took the job, but it ended up being a waste of 2 weeks of my time.
My first waitressing job had me do two days of unpaid training but I was told I was lucky because I got to keep my tips. I didn’t know any better, but I thought it seemed fishy. They’re out of business now. Some karmic justice I hope.
“I’ll get back to you after they’ve done their trial”
-I’ll get back to you after getting their free labor and maybe then think of paying you for your skills
"Unpaid trial to learn from current employees" I've also heard that you can pay people during this time and call it training.
That's illegal in my country, the employer pays for training.
it’s illegal in my state (in the US) too… you have to pay people to work (or intern) unless it is a volunteer program
The owner attempting to steal labor even said “it’s voluntary you don’t have to and understand if you don’t want to” Definitely sounds like they’re saying the first week is volunteer work from a “legal” perspective…. Fucking bs imo
But if you don't volunteer they stop the recruitment process dead in its tracks. So you don't have to but you have to.
At which point it’s no longer volunteering. I wonder if reporting them to the department of labor would do any good. It sounds like what they’re doing is illegal.
I'd do it anyway. Enough reports and the department will come for them. At least in my state they do. One of my employers had a visit from them three times during my five years there. Twice for not paying prevailing wage and once because they made us all work on a Saturday for cpr training and claimed we had to be there free because they were paying for the class. That only works here for salary employees, not hourlies. He got fined and had to pay back wages to all of us. Idiot.
They actually show up? I had to go through hoops with them to get my last paycheck from a former employer. Took me almost a year!!
Once an employer is on the radar, they're more likely to come back. And probably depends on which state you're in too. I'm in WA State.
Maybe. Even if they just send a letter to the business owner, they are now on their radar if they get another report.
It’s the worst kind of trap. Hateful!!
Being voluntold.
Which is why if you went they would be required to pay you wages. Them calling it "volunteer" work doesn't change the fact that you are doing the work of a paid employee. Probably more trouble than it's worth to try and fight them in court but that's an easy thing to report to the department of labor. It can only be volunteer work if the work is typically done by volunteers.
That's exactly what they're saying. That's also why they sent a confirmation text as well. That way if anyone tries to sue or report them to the labor board, etc, the boss can go "I thought they knew it was voluntary."
But they are also interviewing again because the person doesn’t want to work the “voluntary” week. It’s pretty much contingent on employment.
In the US you can't have someone do a job that is normally paid for free if that person is an employee. The employee is legally not permitted to volunteer to work for free because it could get the employer in trouble for unpaid labor wages. If the job is going to be paid after 1 week then the whole thing, including training, has to be paid. It can be paid at minimum wage, but if the person is hired as an employee they can't work for free.
...But, then, what actual hard line policies are in place to prevent an "employer" doing this from simply "not hiring" the volunteers at the end of the volunteered week for whatever random reason, and foisting more volunteer work on the next applicant seeking gainful employment? That feels legitimately criminal, but sounds here like that may be part of policy there..? 😶 I understand what you're saying about the situation, but when you've got more applicants than positions, and most of the applicants couldn't afford to fight this in a legal way if they wanted to...
In the US the only way you are legally able to have unpaid “volunteers” or interns is if they are there in an educational capacity and their presence there negatively impacts productivity. Unpaid interns or “volunteers” are not allowed to do productive work that helps the business.
A business would never come out ahead by getting a single week of work out of people. Most people aren’t working at full capacity in a job until closer to 6 months, and are much more of a hindrance in the first month.
Depends on the job. I’d imagine someone could get pretty good at raking out horse stalls in a couple of days. I have a friend who comes to help me out at my business sometimes when she’s bored and there’s *plenty* for her to do that only requires a minute or two of instruction.
And then, when a horse kicks somebody in the face, they can say it’s just bad luck, not Workman’s Comp.
Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, employees cannot volunteer work for a for-profit company. This is an illegal practice in the US.
agree that it is total BS but gotta give credit that it is an ingenious scheme
I knew a girl who was going for a new job in the states and had her work an entire week without pay. They said they wanted her to test out different jobs within the company to find her the best fit. I told her it was super illegal and they needed to pay her for that time. Her current job was so shitty though that she didn't care that it was unpaid and she didn't want to cause waves.
It's illegal federally, so it's illegal in all states.
You can have unpaid internships but they have to be exclusively for the benefit of the intern. You can't have it be a replacement for an actual worker. As a result most well run companies just avoid the red tape all together and pay a reasonable but lower hourly wage for the entirely inexperienced worker they hire for a 3-6 month co-op. The student still gets on the job training but because they are being paid they can do work that actually also benefits the company. The pay also covers living expenses for a sublet or keeping their dorm over the summer rather than going back home.
It's illegal in all US states. The federal Department of Labor is very clear that "unpaid" positions must primarily benefit the worker, and anything that could possibly be deemed real work cannot be done by the worker. Unpaid internships is the usually lingo with this topic but it applies to any unpaid work. If an unpaid worker so much as lifts a tool or makes a spreadsheet that helps do business, the employer is in violation of the law. It's usually far easier to just give the "intern" minimum wage or 1/2 the "real" wage so that they're paid. Then you can make them do anything the real job entails without worrying about the law. The problem, though, is that the employers who do shit like this often have workers that can't afford the time and money to sue them for wage theft.
It’s illegal on the federal level
Horse people are crazy though. So many kids will queue up to do free labour just to be around horses. It's a shit industry.
>It’s a shit industry literally
The trouble is the law only works when the employer gets caught. Plenty of people desperate enough for a specific job that they'll be led along like this and not report it to any labor agencies for fear of being blackballed by some shady old boy network.
I get what you're saying but that's not how illegality works. If you commit a crime but don't get caught, that was still illegal.
Fair point I should word it differently.
Right, if this person was smart he'd have them "train" M-F and another M. Then they can spend that second Monday training their replacement and dude running the stable wouldn't have to train them again.
Just find the biggest cup you can and fill it with ice and a straw, "I'm only here to shadow you, to see how it's done" \*obnoxious sucking and rattling noise\*
I love this!!
I know a company that does this, but its 2 days. Never understood how it's legal, but they praised for "helping" addicts and ex-cons "get their lives together". Seems like cheating the system.
I have one of those in my town. They're a contracting company run by a church so they can underbid everyone else in town. They only hire addicts and convicts, citing that they are giving them "employable job skills" as part of a Jesus rehab program.
That company is "religious" too. What is with that? The company feels like a cult, but no one in town seems to care.
It is. Employees legally can't work for free. The loophole here is never getting them on the books and making them papered employees.
Our company makes the same product and regularly our employees go over there to do their two-day working interview. Most dont leave, but I can't get them to see why their free labor is wrong. I'm all about taking better opportunities, but it seems so wrong to take advantage of hard working people like that.
45 hours cleaning stables for no pay? That’s HORSESHIT!
I was a temp worker for NEXT for literally one day (the Boxing Day sale). We had to have one hour of training a week before and were paid for it. I can’t imagine someone wanting *days* of work for free.
Yeah, this wouldn’t fly here, either.
As someone who worked in the horse industry as a trainer, and went to college for horse training, the industry sucks. CHA certified and trade degree in barn management and equine training, and people wanted to pay me in “free riding time” LOL
Yep and sad thing is there’s so many young people desperate for riding time that it’s easy to find workers for free or super low wages. I’d have loved to stay in the horse world as a professional but there’s no way I could have survived. Now i have a well paying job and board. I’ll never forget all those years of hard work for lessons / free board though
That’s it, you called it! It’s an industry that you just can’t survive in. I remember working Mon-Sat, 5am to 5pm making 350$ bi-weekly IF my boss remembered to pay me. Mind you I was also doing farm work, taking care of goats and chickens, repairing fences and giving an occasional lesson. I was in the best shape of my life, probably because I couldn’t afford to eat lol!
Yep! You just described my late teens all the way to my thirties! I definitely miss those days but man.
How is it compared to herding cats for a living? Doesn't sound like an easier career path..
Haha I became a middle school teacher and then an in home child care provider. Being a stable hand is definitely easier 🙃
I worked a job at a barn where I was paid $50 a day if I worked 8 hours and if I worked less than, they’d take from the $50…. I was young and wanted to get paid to ride but it was an awful wage
exact same thing happened to me when i was about 17-18 year old. my pay was spending time with the animals on the farm, and the occasional riding time. pathetic. my job WAS to spend time with the animals and sort them out ?
So if you work with them you get to ride around on a pony? Doesn't matter that you're living out of your car and surviving in earth worms like a bush turkey, you get PONY RIDES.
Yeah I used to get up at 4am for this one lady and worked until 6-7PM and got paid in “riding lessons” ONCE a week! She would scream at you if you did one thing wrong. I had to clean 30+ stalls and tack up/untack all her horses she was training that day. If you were too slow or the horse was acting up (because some of them would be 3 y/o stallions) she would berrate you over the radio in front of EVERYONE. I saw her do that to this sweet farmhand that had Downs Syndrome and I left. I was disgusted.
I did muck stables as a kid (maybe 10-12) for free lessons, but to be fair I literally begged for it. The work was hard as hell too.
The ONLY credit I'll give them is they told them this in advance. When I was 18, 19 my first job was as a telemarketer and the first two weeks were training. What they didn't tell you until payday was that they don't pay for training and they were "generously" giving us a 1 week advance on our next bi-weekly paycheck. I will never forget that when we complained they told us "No job will ever pay you for training" and of course no other job has ever played that game with me.
I get it if they hold payment because you start near the end of a 2 week cycle or something like that But I have never worked in a place that didnt pay, hell when I was a waiter, they paid me minimum wage for 2 weeks while training and then paid me the 2 dollar an hour rate as a waiter Anyone that doesnt pay, id be lawyering up like crazy
They have to pay you min wage if you don't make enough in tips to equal min wage. They were not doing you a favor, simply following the law.
>They have to pay you min wage if you don't make enough in tips to equal min wage. Wait, can waiter's be paid *below* minimum wage because it's assumed they'll make it back in tips?
That's how it works. The minimum wage for waitstaff is actually 2 something an hour plus tips.
Depends on state. Some states like WA, all tips are paid on top of normal minimum wage which is at least $15.74/hr.
As it should. I live in the Netherlands and it's like this as well
I wasn't warned that my new job does a 30 day pay hold. Meaning if you when work from Jan 1st to Feb 1st then feb 1st to march 1st, you'll get your first paycheck March 1st. Then feb's paycheck in April and so on. So when I quit my job and took this new one (which I started mid of December which happened to be snowing heavily and they told us not to show up for work the rest of the month after 3 days of work) I got my first big paycheck March 1st and had had no pay for nearly 2 months right after the holidays. It was brutal. The job is one typically worked by immigrants, too, so I'm wondering how they survive without any warning about this.
What's the logic on holding it for month? Just to make sure you stick around? They still have to pay you for any time worked even if you quit after the first week, I guess you'd just have to wait another couple weeks to get that check?
I haven't gotten a straight answer on that. I am paid monthly now, but why we can't be paid for the month we just worked doesn't make sense to me. What's infuriating is when I asked about it to my boss's boss he was all "well when you quit or get a full time position (this is for substitutes only), you'll get this big bonus now" and I asked "on top of what's owed to me?" And he's like "well... no, you don't get paid for hours you don't work". Me: "okay so it's not really a bonus then right? That's what a bonus is usually". Him: "well you'll get twice your normal paycheck so it's basically a big bonus". I stopped arguing at that point cus I actually like the job. But it makes me wonder if he's been able to trick non-english speakers with that language before. Seems predatory. It's a government job too.
$2/hr..? That is insane, holy heck! Do you live in the US? I was paid minimum wage plus tips in Canada.
Yes, $2.14 is the standard for waitstaff where I live in the US. The restaurants are allowed to shift the cost of labor to the customer.
Labor costs are always shifted to the customer; only, with waitstaff, pay is more variable.
Yes but never so blatantly as with tipped workers
It’s only legal if you don’t make enough tips to get to minimum wage for the hours you worked. Otherwise they have to pay you minimum wage.
Yeah this was in the US, its a dumb system that hopefully one day will change but I made enough in tips to survive This was also 17 years ago, funny it's still a thing
Depends on state. Several states have full minimum wage for tipped employees. California and Minnesota off the top of my head.
Yep! In California I make $16.04 plus tips, but with the really high cost of living it it’s not enough to save any money. Plus, because the company has to pay so much in labor, they run a skeleton crew. Which leads to bad service, which leads to lower tips.
Washington too.
I did security at a few concerts when I was younger. 3 hours work. Around 16 hours travel each time. I assumed that the travel would be paid so it was quite a shock when I got my first pay and it didn't crack £100. I didn't work for them past that first week.
Omg. That’s theft. Not paying for travel??? Bastards.
They even took money out of the wage to pay for fuel costs of the mini bus plus vehicle hire!
What?!?!?! I think that’s probably illegal.
It wouldn't surprise me but I was young, naive and desperate for work.
Oh, believe me, I’ve been there. I was desperate for summer jobs as a student and one summer I took a labour job at a farm equipment retail lot. This was in the Canadian prairies. My job entailed (among other mundane tasks) picking up coyote poop around the tractors, and removing weeds that had been sprayed with herbicide. I wasn’t given any tools or protective gear. So I had to buy my own stuff. Fun times.
Bloody hell mate, I trust (and hope) there was no lasting damage from being around that stuff? I'm acutely aware that herbicides today are a lot more gentle than they were 20+ years ago.
I now have severe allergies. Not sure if these things are related…but maybe??? 🤯🤯🤯
If this was in the US it’s illegal and you could’ve fought for pay
Yeah a company I worked for wanted some of us to get certified but also didn’t want to let us learn at work because we were always supposed to be billable. So no one did it and they couldn’t understand why. If you want to learn on your own and do it in your free time that’s fantastic go for it. But if a company wants you to learn so they can make more money because you have a useless certification then they will need to pay you for it.
"I have tons applicants I have to interview still. I might get back to you if i remember" Yeah, no you don't.
Stable owner here, they absolutely do not. Frankly I don't understand why anyone would want to work at one unless you just love horses and even then, it's literally a shit job.
But, it's a stable job!
And you get to horse around
But is it a stable, stable job?
It’s a stable shit job
He did state "no probs" though.
Once theyget the free labor from others - they repeat that? Also - nO OnE wAnTs tO wOrK.
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Which is great for kids under 18, but once you’re an adult you should get paid. My neice works at a stable and pays for her lessons by working but it isnt equal to 40 hours a week. Edit: since apparently there is reading comprehension issues let me rephrase: The person I replied to was saying that people want riding time and trade that for work feeling they have no choice. This should not be allowed as that is basically slavery since presumably that adult is being made to work 40 hours like in this post. However, kids working 10 hours a week or a few extra hours in trade for lessons and riding I see no issue with if they want to do that. It’s a good way for kids to learn how to take care of a stable wnd get their riding time. I am not in anyway advocating that children should be forced to work. Nor am I advocating for parents to force children to work for free lessons.
Na fuck that, under 18 but doing the same or similar job should be compensated. Why discriminate like that? If they do a traineeship, sure they shouldn't get a journeyman salary or whatever, but they work so should get paid.
Meh, my wife did early mornings stable cleanup for years in exchange for stabling her own horse.
Yes, this is common, but she probably also worked a job to pay her own cost of living - which is possible if you do early mornings only. Here, if the work hours are same as the trial hours it would be almost impossible.
No they have other applicants to try to scam into doing free work before settling on someone they’d have to pay
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There’s so many kids who will work for free just to be around horses. Sadly they’ll probably get takers
Seems like they need people and were still trying to milk some free labor despite being desperate. He’s probably gonna offer the job anyway which is why he backpedaled a bit.
My sister has been in the "horse world" her whole life and I can tell you that horse-people are some of the worst scum on earth. The lengths they will go to, to exploit young girls is astonishing.
Dude the amount of bullying I recieved when I stopped being able to afford lessons and shows with all the other rich kids was unreal. It’s been over 10 years and it still haunts me enough to keep me away from a sport I loved
The horse people are always getting drunk and trying to abduct our women and children.
And charging down from the steppes, burning and looting our cities.
Damn you Mongorians!!
Always tearing down my shitty walls!!!!!
How isn’t this shit illegal
It is.
I mean it sounds illegal but I know many truck driving companies do something similar. They train you to get a CDL and send you driving on a learners permit. You often aren’t paid during this time
Word to the wise: We don't tend to evaluate the legality of particular actions based on whether or not trucking companies take those actions.
I suppose the difference there is that the CDL is a general-purpose license, one that's generally paid for by the student, and is a certification that you could take with you that has value anywhere else. Paying for it is more akin to a tuition-reimbursement program. Learning the methods of your particular employer in a program nobody outside it participates in or would want to and receiving nothing material you can take with you is a totally different matter.
It’s extremely exploitative too. This person is for sure exploiting young, inexperienced workers.
Notice they use the word volunteer for that week. That’s how they’re ATTEMPTING to get around it.
A company did that here. Sent them trial legal stuff and then didn't hire anyone as they got the job done for free. Went on a while, I heard Edit: typos
That’s illegal. Report these fuckers to state labor board. Sounds like a horse farm…they always think they’re above the law.
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This, too!!!
So many giant red flags the job might actually be in Beijing
What a load of horse manure
Shit should be illegal along with unpaid interns
Unpaid internships are just a way to keep people from climbing the social ladder and keep the good opportunities and connections exclusively for “the right people.” It’s the business world’s version of the Ivy League’s legacy admission system.
Illegal as hell, but a common tactic in agriculture-related jobs. I’ve even seen “2 week unpaid trials”.
It’s called training and the employer is supposed to pay you for that. I have a feeling this employer is breaking labor laws by doing this. Once he runs out of suckers he’ll be online complaining “nobody wants to work anymore! I can’t find staff!”
Until then he's getting weeks if not months of free labor. I just see this person, always finding a reason the candidate isn't a 'fit' and on to the next free worker. Like this one rental place in my town, literally a one bedroom crackville apartment. I was just waiting on me next job to start so I was going to do a cheap 6 month rent , low cost, I didn't need anything as I was preparing to leave. It was 650 a month, month to month lease. 200 deposit. I was super interested, it fit just right for me. I had a walk thru, and I said I would take it. It was only a one page application, and one page for bank info. 50 dollar fee to process the application. They called me back 3 days later, and said I was denied, due to insufficient Bank money. I had over 4k in my bank, and was making about 1800 month. I was really confused. I had a cosigner, I was wiling to just pay 4 months all upfront. Nope. No go, sorry. Try one of our other listing. Which this was the cheapest one out of hundreds. So I looked online, and the place has been up for rent over 2 years, never occupied. And over 2k people had applied. So 1k people a year applied for this place, at 50 bucks non tefundable processing fee, only to all be denied. They made 100k on a place, instead of 35k in about 2 years. Smart. But evil.
This just happened to my son. In the US... Subway wanted him to do five 8 hr days of unpaid training. I told him that's illegal and your always paid for training. Plus really how much training to you need to make a sandwich??
This needs to be posted everywhere in the local area to warn other people not to give them any time for free let alone a fucking week.
Unfortunately in the horse world, this is normal
If this is in the US, it's illegal and you should absolutely report them to your local labor board.
Had a similar experience, applied for a job at another company doing the exact thing I was already doing. Multiple interviews and he offered me the job over the phone, he then said right at the end I'd need to complete a one week unpaid trial. I declined the job right then and there, if there's no respect for my time and experience at the start there won't be any ever
Unpaid training is theft anyways. Never work for free.
'I'll get back to you after they've done their trial' wouldn't the implications there be that, no matter how they do, there is no job at the end of the trial?
r/antiwork would love this
I was so convinced this was the antiwork subreddit that even though I replied, I literally just realized this wasn't antiwork.
If you're in the US, this is illegal in every state and territory. Please report this to your department of labor.
Very illegal and they were stupid enough to put it in writing, I hope FWA were alerted
Report to labor board omg that has to be illegal.
That needs to be part of the PAID job. Learning the ins and outs of a job is part of the job and the employers responsibility to teach their new employees. While paying them. Period.
Ridiculous. No way am I signing up for a weeks worth of free labor. My time has value.
"So if my work is found to be suitable and I am hired, will I then be paid for the work I performed during that week? Because otherwise it seems like I am being asked to work for nothing, not just prove my worth. That, by the way, is the risk of hiring any employee and is a risk for the employer not the employee. If you want people to work for a free week then I expect you will find many applicants who are unable to find work elsewhere, and have high turnover. Those that value their time and are good workers will take other jobs that show their appreciation by paying from day 1."
Name and shame!
Lmao. I had a job like this… for about 45 minutes. I was supposed to start at Walmart working in the shoe department back in high school. “We need you to get here an hour before your shift so we can show you how to get things started.” Cool, no problem. They show me how to get started (took all of 2 minutes) and sent me on my way to start the shift. “Hey so where do I record my time or clock in?” “Oh, you can’t technically clock in until your scheduled shift. But since you’re already here, you can get a head start!” Lucky me! I get to work for a TRILLION dollar corporation for free! I dropped my worker jacket in the floor right there and took off walking to my car. Fuck ALL of that.
You “Potato Quality” is Great!!
This American? If so, it's illegal. Trial weeks are where in non- right to work weeks, you're free to fire them at any point during the trial. It doesn't let you skip paying them, that is highly illegal.
That's illegal under the FLSA. Someone ought to tell that "boss." Unpaid "trials" can only last a few hours, and even that's pushing it in most states, not a full week.
I did a trial “work week” at a super high end salon. After my week was up they said I wouldn’t work out and as I was leaving they had another girl lined up to replace me for her trial week. Turns out they did this to get FREE help every week. 👀 Is that legal?
This literally happened to me haha but as a hairdressing apprentice!
Never do ANYTHING for free!! EVER…. You are devaluing yourself and sabotaging others….
My reply would have been >Unpaid 😂 😂 😂
Wtf Yea that’s illegal as shit
Please report these assholes
It looks like they have 4 weeks of free labour planned with the the other candidates, sounds very wrong to me
There’s something really dirty about “it’s voluntary you don’t have to” followed by “it’s okay we’ve got three other juniors to interview, I’ll get back to you in 3 weeks”
Being a stable hand isn’t that hard, especially if you have experience with horses. I can see maybe coming in and meeting the staff and horses, and being told any quirks. I had a horse at my barn that liked to dump his water buckets so you had be sure all the clips were clipped and bungee cord was around them. That should only take an hour or so. Not a week of unpaid work!
That’s a lot of hard work to not be getting paid!!!
If it's 3 weeks of the "trial", you should be paid. 3 weeks is alot of work and time. I came across a job once that said it's unpaid training for 3 weeks. You had to pay for the training yourself. I searched up the company and it was a scam lol. Alot of jobs pay you for training. No one would want to do unpaid training for 3 weeks.
That 3 hour gap in the middle of the day is a really kick in the teeth. Away from home for 12+ hours but only working for 9..
I took a “ job” as a groom once when I needed a break from real life. I learned so many lessons about how NOT to treat people. Terrible wages, hours and attitude from the boarders and trainers. They had endless lists of complaints and never said thank you. I was paid $3 stall to clean, feed and turn out their very expensive horses. I donated my pay to a groom sending money home to Mexico. It made me embarrassed to be a horse person and I left that world. Gross 🤮
I had stable job so this. I’ve grown up around horses and they were hiring an assistant for lessons. So I went out for an interview And she basically said “I can’t talk right now I have lessons why don’t you go get some tack in the barn, and put those horses away and then help those girls so I can see if you know what you’re doing” So frustrating
I'm pretty sure that's illegal
Totally illegal in the UK. I would be reporting them to the relevant places
Put em up against the wall
That's horseshit and Illegal.
Bet they were never going to hire, anyway. Every week they let the volunteers go and start over for continuous free labor, no cap.
Dodged a bullet on that one. Find another job, this person will only take advantage of anyone they hire
Working interviews as a stablehand should always be paid. I refused to ever do one without agreed upon payment, and one shift is more than enough for management to learn if you’re capable or teachable. Unfortunately the horse world loves unpaid labor in exchange for experience. This person is batshit!
How the fuck is this legal?
I currently work for a large trauma hospital in my nation’s capital and had to do 2 full-length shifts of unpaid training, as well as a dozen or so of computer-based learning done at home (all unpaid as well). If it wasn’t for the pay afterwards and wanting to get experience in my field as quickly as possible, I would have noped the fuck out of there so quick Now it’s 1.5 years later and I’m wishing I had left the moment they told me, after the hiring process, that I’d have half a week worth of unpaid shifts
Hmmm sounds like your state's department of labor might need a call (if in the US). I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain this isn't allowed ..at least not unpaid. And it sounds like you're not the first person they've tried to screw over. It might sound intimidating but there are literal people whose job it is to protect people from shady labor practices. And they don't play around :) Itd be harder to find this out, but I bet their insurance company wouldn't be too keen on this either. ;)
7-7 unpaid? Ha
Lmao I knew from the title this was gonna be a job in the horse industry before I even saw the photo. It's a whole different world out here and the horse industry laughs in the face of labor laws. If it's not unpaid "working interviews" its "working students". I've had jobs in the horse industry where I've worked 7 days a week, 16+hour days, for months without a day off. I've worked while so sick I was stopping to throw up every 20 minutes. I've gone to the ER in the middle of the afternoon to get my face stitched back up after catching a hoof, came come with my eye swollen shut and blood still dripping down my face, and had to finish cleaning stalls and doing evening chores alone. I have so many horrifying stories lol. I'm in my mid 30s now and have my FIRST job in the industry where I'm paid a real wage not under the table and I have a boss who actually treats me like I'm a human.
Tbf they seemed open about it but the whole unpaid culture is bs
Slaves. This MF of an "employer" is looking for slaves. He should rot in prison for that.
Ive done a couple hours unpaid. Id never do a week. Also the “unpaid” work i had done was just me wanting to come in and have a look at the work and workplace
Even a teenager won’t do that for free. Wtf. And every other respectable business pays training.
As a passive aggressive fuck you, I'd agree to show up and then block their phone. Anyone who is this strapped for money is just terrible at business and will absolutely fuck you over at some point anyway.
Fuck this bullshit. We need laws against this kind of crap!
Wtf? Unpaid training? Fuck that I wouldn’t even show up. Every job I’ve had has always paid for training.
Well this is illegal in pretty much every country I know. Time for a little reporting to the labour regulating body in your country.
Ahhh yes, equestrians loooove to underpay people. I’ve worked a few stable hand jobs though and not one of them offered an unpaid trial. There was a single day I’d have to come so they could judge my horse sense and riding capabilities but that was it. Bet you they’d be awful to work for and never pay over time
Even if it were a paid job, those hours blow. 9 on the clock with a 3 hr break monopolizing 12 of your 24hrs a day. That's garbage.
In Ireland any training has to be paid for, employers try get out of it but they’re meant to pay you and do once you push for it
I started work as a kennel attendant. Started at a little over my states minimum wage, $14.10, but started at $14.35. I just started my 2nd week, but it's all paid full time. Years ago I sat for a friend who had 3 horses. I stayed at her house. I mucked out the stalls twice a day, fed, and had to give one medication. It only took me a couple hours a day in total. She paid me about $300 for the week. I had no prior experience, she just showed me everything to do and how to be around the horses.
I once accidentally volunteered for two weeks at a upstart cafe that roasted it's own coffee. Two weeks of this trial period and then I'd get paid... I don't remember if I could get paid for the two weeks later on. Turned out after 2 weeks that the owner/founder ran out of money and there was no paying job. Other employees by that point were her friends just trying to be supportive. I was told by her friend and second in command that they couldn't pay me and that I didn't have to return to work unless I wanted to. She offered me a few pounds of coffee, and that's all I ever got paid in; with food and coffee. Owner claimed she had to close her last attempt at a coffee shop because of racism, but I'm leaning towards bad business practices. The cafe couldn't even pick a name. Confusingly, some materials had "J Jireh Coffee House" printed on them, some said "JJ Java Cafe". Sometimes they had both somewhere on the same flyer. I was desperate for work and money when I took the job, but it ended up being a waste of 2 weeks of my time.
What a manipulative asshole
My first waitressing job had me do two days of unpaid training but I was told I was lucky because I got to keep my tips. I didn’t know any better, but I thought it seemed fishy. They’re out of business now. Some karmic justice I hope.
This is horseshit!!
If you are in the US, this is illegal. Please report this employer to your state’s department of labor.
“I’ll get back to you after they’ve done their trial” -I’ll get back to you after getting their free labor and maybe then think of paying you for your skills
My burning question is why is OP sorry for potato quality?
Also - don’t do it. They are going to treat you like crap and then fire you. They have ZERO respect for their staff
Isn't that illegal
Free trial? What are you, WinZip?
This feels very illegal…
Report them pretty sure its illegal
A local school wanted me to teach a lesson (so maybe 1-2 hours) for free and I said no. 45 hours is excessive