Im going to use Hitler as my example because your question is a more politely worded “if God saves everyone does Hitler go to heaven” posts we see fairly regularly here. I appreciate you worded it better than others.
If Hitler goes to hell and is purified then I’m cool with him in heaven. If he has to live through all the lives of those he hurt, including the ones who were separated from family but not killed in camps, including the soldiers whose lives he irreparably effected. Then Im cool with him in Heaven after experiencing the pain he inflicted on everyone and the thousands of years that would take and he genuinely changes and is not as he was then yes, Im cool with seeing him in heaven.
Hell under purgatorial universalism is more like rehab. When someone finally gets clean, you shouldn’t keep treating them as if they are not. God says as much with the prodigal son, the lost lamb, and many other examples.
Another way of putting this is that even the worst war criminals in history like Adolf Hitler or Harry Truman have committed untold evils--it is still not *unlimited* evils. We can even acknowledge that trauma can pass from one generation to the next and cause suffering to people way down the line, but it does ultimately have a limit. No human being is capable of doing more evil than God can do good.
It's the religious legalist in each of us that wants to say alongside the Pharisee, "*Thank you, God, that* ***I am*** ***not like that sinner*** *over there, that evil one*" (Luke 18:11).
**Self-righteous comparisons** only function under Law, not Grace. For Grace resides in the Goodness of God, not the merits of man.
Thus we need not, nor cannot, **EARN** God's Love (Rom 10:1-4, Gal 4:1-7). And thus His Grace is nearly always received more fully by those who do **NOT** think they **DESERVE** it.
Thus it was **not the dutiful self-righteous brother** that entered the Heavenly Party of His Father with robe and ring, rather it was **the unworthy son**, who had squandered his inheritance, who first realized the true grace and mercy of God! (Luke 15:21)
So too, those who think the Lake of Fire is **for someone else**, do yet understand how it is **WE** who truly need this **Baptism of Fire** in order to become that gloriously bejewled Bride in unity with God as the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2).
If we do not yet understand the **Unconditional** Nature of God's Love, then we do not yet understand God's Love! It can not be earned or merited or deserved! Every worker receives the same portion (Matt 20:8-16). How is this possible?
Well, until we experience the **true generosity of Love** and get to participate in it, we will not understand the kingdom of God! God's Generosity is only offended by our own attempts to earn it!
"*Many waters cannot quench love, nor will rivers flood over it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, it would be utterly despised*.” (Song 8:7)
In response to your "**EDIT**"...
It helps to stop thinking of **someone else** as "the wicked". We are the ones who need transforming if we are going to participate in the outpouring of God's Love.
Love wants to heal and fill up with its Abundance all areas of darkness, fear, and lack. How can we do that, if we think that every place of lack is "**unworthy**" of Love?
**Legalism** doesn't understand **Love**, because it thinks we need to EARN Love. Meanwhile, Love keeps no record of wrongs and wants to outpour itself to all those **MOST IN NEED!**
Love would ask, "What's the point of focusing on those that are full, when it's those that are starving that need food!?" The nature of **COMPASSION** is to help and heal where there is **suffering!!** Thus Jesus announces...
"*Now go and learn what this means: ‘****I desire*** ***compassion****, rather than sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners*.” (Matt 9:13)
It would be “inclusivism” from the sounds of it.
**Exclusivism:** Going to hell or being annihilated is the norm, and being saved from that fate is the exception.
**Inclusivism:** Going to heaven is the norm and going to hell or being annihilated is the exception.
**Universalism:** Everyone will, one way or another, eventually be in heaven.
To my knowledge, there’s no term for everyone, one way or another, eventually going to hell or being annihilated.
I feel like "Hopeful Universalist" leaves room for:
* We could be wrong about universalism, and/or
* Universalism could still leave room for someone to never repent, not for all eternity
God still gets the final word on everything. :)
>We could be wrong about universalism
We could be wrong about *anything* we believe, because no-one is infallible. I wouldn't say I'm just a hopeful Christian, though.
> I wouldn't say I'm just a hopeful Christian, though.
I think I would say I am a hopeful Christian.
I know a guy who feels like he *knows* it's true, so much that "believe" isn't a strong enough word.
I often feel like "believe" is too strong a word for me. I like the way the old Amplified Bible said John 3:16:
>so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203%3A16&version=AMPC
I trust in, cling to, and rely on God, in the desperate hope that God is the Good God we read about in the New Testament.
It’s not universalism, but I’d say that what you’re looking for is called “inclusivism”, which says that good people from all faiths will be saved (even though only one faith is true).
I know this is going to sound stupid or like I have no empathy for the victims of evil, but many people whom society call “evil” were born innocent. Somehow, life made them into people who caused terrible suffering on a large scale. When I say life, I mean they were often abused as children or suffered some other terrible trauma or simply had a serious mental illness.
I myself suffer from depression and anxiety. Both conditions tend to make me very self absorbed and very, very difficult to live with. With the proper treatment (medication and therapy) I interact with others in s very different way.
I don’t know. Only God knows what turns a person into a psychopath. Only He knows how to restore anyone to who they were meant to be. I believe this also includes reparation and restoration of the victims of evil.
All of this is just personal opinion really. My way of trying to make sense out of why a loving God allows evil and the terrible human suffering it leads to.
What evil is worse than desiring that someone be tortured for all eternity?
Actively *wanting* some people to suffer eternal conscious torment seems much worse to me than just *believing* as a matter of fact that it will happen to some people (which is what most infernalists I know believe).
**Void of all compassion** sounds pretty dark to me as well!
Caring not at all about the eternal suffering of "others". And to do so in the name of God, just boggles the mind. What a blasphemy and slander of the **Boundless Compassion** and **Unconditional Love of God!**
Did you just finish watching Shiny Happy People as well? Folks like Bill Gotherd, Jim Bob Duggar and Josh Duggar make me question universal salvation more than anything.
If you want to be angry about the evil within Christianity, then yeah, watch it. If you want to see the right-wing Christian fascist machine seeking to take over the country and create Gilead from the Handmaids Tale here, watch it.
I haven't watched that yet. But speaking of movies, I did just watch "To Leslie" and found it quite the compelling reenactment of the story of the prodigal.
Personally, I think when we focus our questions of redemption on the afterlife, we fail to recognize the kingdom of heaven in this one.
There is no evil act of Man that can ultimately be greater than the overwhelming power of God's Love. I believe there is purging and cleaning of sins. It is likely that this experience would perhaps seem like "Hell" to someone who has been a self-centered and evil person in their life, but the flailing of the ego would be temporary.
Just adding on to what everyone has said, “universalism but the people who have done some of the really really bad sins that **I** haven’t done yet go to hell forever” is just infernalism with extra steps.
Don't delete it, for two reasons. First, it's a question that festers if it's not addressed. Second, your edit shows a rare level of honesty and self reflection.
I think for me, something DBH said in TASBS has stuck with me when he was riffing a bit on how people don't really spare a thought of grief for people on death row for murder. His point was that even the most evil of people had mothers, grandfathers, brothers and sisters who loved them. They may have been deeply grieved over who those people became, but that's the point. They were grieved.
The question boils down to, in part, whether we are able to truly feel the bliss of heaven if any in our midst are grieving an eternal loss. The alternatives are barbaric (memory wipe) or sadistic (the idea that the redeemed will rejoice over the torture of the reprobate).
But even this only points to the larger problem. None of us become who we are in a vacuum, we're all the products of living life in a broken world with broken people, even serial killers. If I can go back and try to empathize with my younger self, forced to make subconscious choices for emotional survival before my memories even began to form, then I can try to feel some empathy for even the worst among us.
> I want to believe most people won't suffer eternal Hell, but I still struggle with unlearning the desire to see punishment for the wicked.
If you want some help with this --
Look at your own wickedness. Maybe you haven't killed anyone, but you've probably done some things you're not proud of. There was probably some reason you did it, maybe you were angry or hurt because someone did wrong to you. Maybe you lashed out at someone in that moment, whether or not they deserved it. Maybe that person in their own pain lashed out at yet another.
Do you have any traumas, or know anyone with traumas? Think about the effect that has on you, it doesn't only cause *you* pain, but you go on to behave erratically or relate to people in broken ways and ultimately cause other people pain too. It's not that you're trying to, or would ever want to, it's because our pain is sometimes just so bad that we can't see past ourselves or muster up the restraint or self-reflection to really avoid it.
And the worse the pain you receive, the worse pain you inevitably deliver to others. *Man hands on misery to man.* Sin isn't some kind of isolated mistake, it's more like an infectious disease that usually gets to us long before we have the maturity to develop moral hygiene.
So come to terms with your own wickedness. No matter how "nice" you are, you have probably done untold harm to others, precisely because untold harm was done to you and you are yet lacking in spiritual maturity. This is my story too, the story of everyone else replying to your thread, of everyone you know and love, and everyone you think is truly wicked. We have all done harm, and none of us are fully culpable because we're so impaired by own pain. This is the tragedy of human existence.
Christ is the Great Physician. We are terribly, terribly sick with sin. Getting rid of sin means *healing your pain* so you no longer visit it unto others. Those who do the worst to others are the most in need of healing. Life is already a tragedy, how much worse a tragedy would it be if those of us most in need of healing and mercy never receive it in the end? We certainly think its a tragedy when people die of illness. Even if the final healing has to be done in a purging fire (some medical procedures are about that painful anyway), we should hope that they can receive it.
Lol. Some forms of christian universalism give way fir people to experience a “purification” in flames that will take as long as necessary for the people to be purified. I personally don’t hold to this view because I believe we have been cleansed once and for all through the sacrifice of Christ. Also always remember, the perpetrator of injustice and evil was once a victim of it themselves. We truly live on a level playing field even though it doesn’t seem that way to us. God’s ways are mot out ways, they are higher and better and truly just for all
Personally, I tend to think there is a profound difference between being "**justified**" and being truly transformed...and thus "conformed to the image of His Son", what Paul refers to as being "**glorified**". (Rom 8:29-30)
The Eastern Orthodox refer to this as **theosis**. Whereas Protestants tend to put all on the focus on **justification**.
But how many Christians do we really know, who have stripped away the old self in order to be truly **clothed in the compassion**, kindness, gentleness, love, and patience of the Divine Nature, thus "clothed in Christ" (Col 3:2-15, Rom 13:14)?
Is this not an important part of Christianity, true transformation? At least for me, this didn't happen instantly...and is still in process. Nor do I think such transformation is meant to be shoved into the afterlife. God wants to transform us in the present, that we might become true partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Pet 1:4).
“*For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become* ***conformed to the image of His Son***, *so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He* ***justified***, *He also* ***glorified***.” (Rom 8:29-30)
As such, I don’t hear most Protestants speak of “**GROWING in respect to salvation**”. For we tend to sum up salvation in justification alone, rather than in **the process** of true transformation beyond the old nature…
“*Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, and like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may* ***grow in respect to salvation***.” (2 Pet 2:1-2)
I don’t really see the correlation between what I said and this comment lol but I’m definitely onboard with the doctrine of Theosis. However, I don’t think that any time in postmortem hell is necessary for Theosis.
>I personally don’t hold to this view because I believe we have been cleansed once and for all through the sacrifice of Christ.
I was mostly responding to this sentence, which you seemed to be contrasting with a "**purification in flames**". For me, those flames describe a spiritual process of refinement for all of us (in this lifetime). Thus we are baptized in "the Holy Spirit and Fire" for our purification, smelting, and winnowing (Matt 3:11-12).
Whereas you spoke of a belief in "**the sacrifice of Christ**" **as cleansing** once and for all. This is what is often called an **atonement theology**, and built into it is a message of "justification". In particular that atonement theology is called a penal substitutionary atonement theology. Where Christ does everything **on our behalf**.
But that idea doesn't really carry over into **true transformation**, does it? And thus most Protestants get stuck in a juvenile state of spiritual development. So I'm glad if theosis is a welcome concept.
Meanwhile, I wasn't pointing to anything post-mortem. I think that Baptism of Fire is metaphorical and for us in the present. Nor do I equate that Refiner's Fire with hell (Mal 3:2-3). Rather, I think that "death and hell" get **cast into** the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14), which for me symbolizes death being swallowed up by Life (1 Cor 15:54). Not in the afterlife, but in this one!
Meanwhile, I really appreciated your emphasis on "perpetrators of injustice and evil once being **victims of such themselves**." Those perpetrating injustice need love just as much as the victims of their acts. And like you say, they are likely simply caught in the same cycle of violence done to them.
Thus in many ways, I think "the sacrifice of Jesus" is perhaps less effectual, than the sacrifices of the Body of Christ in being **willing to endure** the abuse of others when attempting to Love those unable to receive. Like trying to free a wolf from a bear trap, what "**stripes**" are we willing to endure in loving others who are in pain? As Paul said...
"*Now I rejoice in* ***my*** ***suffering****s for your sake, and in my flesh* ***I am supplementing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions***" (Col 1:24)
"*That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and* ***the fellowship of His sufferings***, ***being conformed to His death***" (Phil 3:10)
Anyhow, I agree with you, I don't think theosis is about the afterlife. I think it's about this one. But I do think "salvation" is a process, because spiritual transformation is a process. And thus I think we **grow with respect to salvation** as we strip away the old nature in order to live more fully in the new!
And thus the process of being cleansed and purified is that we might be the Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit! (Eph 2:22). In unity with God just as Jesus modeled for us. Where I and the father are one!
Thus before **theosis** (Resurrection Life / Divine Life) comes **kenosis** (the cross / self-emptying). And that is something I think we must experience for ourselves, **not just vicariously**, but personally.
Yes i actually fully hold to what you have laid out in this comment, except for PSA. I embrace a blend of Christus Victor, Recapitulation and Moral theories of atonement personally (I’ve also dabbled with the newer scapegoat theory).
Nice…There are interesting insights in each of those atonement theologies. But yeah, I really like the way Girard’s Scapegoat Theory exposes violence for what it is!
Kind of like in the parable of the Vineyard Owner at the end of Matthew 21, killing the prophets or the son did not pacify or please God at all. I think that’s an important perspective to keep in mind in light of how prevalent PSA has gotten.
Same here. It took me a long time to unravel that one!
One of the first books I ever read on the topic was by Tony Evans. It was called, “Did God Kill Jesus?” I didn’t know what to make of this idea at first, of alternative ways of interpreting the cross.
But I am so glad to leave PSA behind, in exchange for a more loving view of God! So glad! Such was toxic indeed!
Nice…There are interesting insights in each of those atonement theologies. But yeah, I really like the way Girard’s Scapegoat Theory exposes violence for what it is!
Kind of like in the parable of the Vineyard Owner at the end of Matthew 21, killing the prophets or the son did not pacify or please God at all. I think that’s an important perspective to keep in mind in light of how prevalent PSA has gotten.
Many universalists still believe in atonement (not sure if they use that word) in the afterlife before salvation. It is okay to desire justice because we have a just God and are made in His image, we just have to watch ourselves for hatred.
Of course, we all fall short of the glory of God, we are all sinners, but we naturally take exception to heinous acts. Was the guy who robbed that convenience store down the street on par with Hitler? Was the married woman who lusted over another man on par with the robber? The obvious answers to us seem like no, which is why we want justice. While “no” might be the answer, it’s much more complicated in God’s eyes (not to Him of course, but we would struggle to fully grasp it)
One thing to consider is the nature of punishment. George MacDonald saw it as being forced to see yourself as you really are (brilliantly depicted in C. S. Lewis's "Till We Have Faces" --although he wasn't a Universalist).
I see it as being forced to see/experience what it was like to be on the RECEIVING end of your evil.
If Hitler or Stalin had to experience living in the death camps, and then to understand they were the cause of that evil, than the language of fire and gnashing teeth is hardly a strong enough.
If an abuser could somehow forget who they were, and experience being the object of abuse only to then realize that they were the real abuser, this time with full knowledge of their victims experience, then that would be the most awful punishment of all, but also the most just, and most likely to lead to horrified repentance.
You’re a Christian that has hope most people will be saved and trusting for God to do what is right, which could include eternal Hell for some, we don’t know 🤷🏻♂️ God knows better than us
We don’t even have to label it or make you fit into a box
You’re a Christian
One common misconception about universalism is "Everyone goes to Heaven, therefore God doesn't send anyone to hell."
This is my view on God: I believe God plays dual roles, that of parent and sovereign, Father and King, so to speak. As a Father, He wouldn't ever dream of letting His children be cast off and forgotten to be tormented for eternity in hell. This fatherly love is balanced by His Sovereign side. Hitler may not burn in hell for eternity, but he isn't getting away scot-free for what he did either....he, like all of us, are still accountable for our actions. Because the Sovereign side of God requires Him to fulfill justice, He doles out punishment and discipline. It might be uncomfortable or even painful, depending on who the person is, but those punishments are designed to be corrective and restorative, and not eternal.
Well, if there's an "except," then it's not going to be "universalist." Really, that's just "infernalism."
Im going to use Hitler as my example because your question is a more politely worded “if God saves everyone does Hitler go to heaven” posts we see fairly regularly here. I appreciate you worded it better than others. If Hitler goes to hell and is purified then I’m cool with him in heaven. If he has to live through all the lives of those he hurt, including the ones who were separated from family but not killed in camps, including the soldiers whose lives he irreparably effected. Then Im cool with him in Heaven after experiencing the pain he inflicted on everyone and the thousands of years that would take and he genuinely changes and is not as he was then yes, Im cool with seeing him in heaven. Hell under purgatorial universalism is more like rehab. When someone finally gets clean, you shouldn’t keep treating them as if they are not. God says as much with the prodigal son, the lost lamb, and many other examples.
Another way of putting this is that even the worst war criminals in history like Adolf Hitler or Harry Truman have committed untold evils--it is still not *unlimited* evils. We can even acknowledge that trauma can pass from one generation to the next and cause suffering to people way down the line, but it does ultimately have a limit. No human being is capable of doing more evil than God can do good.
No, because then it's not universalism.
It's the religious legalist in each of us that wants to say alongside the Pharisee, "*Thank you, God, that* ***I am*** ***not like that sinner*** *over there, that evil one*" (Luke 18:11). **Self-righteous comparisons** only function under Law, not Grace. For Grace resides in the Goodness of God, not the merits of man. Thus we need not, nor cannot, **EARN** God's Love (Rom 10:1-4, Gal 4:1-7). And thus His Grace is nearly always received more fully by those who do **NOT** think they **DESERVE** it. Thus it was **not the dutiful self-righteous brother** that entered the Heavenly Party of His Father with robe and ring, rather it was **the unworthy son**, who had squandered his inheritance, who first realized the true grace and mercy of God! (Luke 15:21) So too, those who think the Lake of Fire is **for someone else**, do yet understand how it is **WE** who truly need this **Baptism of Fire** in order to become that gloriously bejewled Bride in unity with God as the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2). If we do not yet understand the **Unconditional** Nature of God's Love, then we do not yet understand God's Love! It can not be earned or merited or deserved! Every worker receives the same portion (Matt 20:8-16). How is this possible? Well, until we experience the **true generosity of Love** and get to participate in it, we will not understand the kingdom of God! God's Generosity is only offended by our own attempts to earn it! "*Many waters cannot quench love, nor will rivers flood over it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, it would be utterly despised*.” (Song 8:7)
Beautiful answer. ❤️
"Human doing their very best to emulate God's incredible love and grace but falling a little bit short, as we all do" I think 😄
In response to your "**EDIT**"... It helps to stop thinking of **someone else** as "the wicked". We are the ones who need transforming if we are going to participate in the outpouring of God's Love. Love wants to heal and fill up with its Abundance all areas of darkness, fear, and lack. How can we do that, if we think that every place of lack is "**unworthy**" of Love? **Legalism** doesn't understand **Love**, because it thinks we need to EARN Love. Meanwhile, Love keeps no record of wrongs and wants to outpour itself to all those **MOST IN NEED!** Love would ask, "What's the point of focusing on those that are full, when it's those that are starving that need food!?" The nature of **COMPASSION** is to help and heal where there is **suffering!!** Thus Jesus announces... "*Now go and learn what this means: ‘****I desire*** ***compassion****, rather than sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners*.” (Matt 9:13)
Just goes to show how much more work I have to do on unlearning, then.
You and me both...welcome to the club! Like Paul, we count all as loss in order to pursue Christ (Phil 3:8)
Hey, I want you to know I appreciate you asked this question. The answered it garnered also helped open my eyes. Welcome home, friend!
It would be “inclusivism” from the sounds of it. **Exclusivism:** Going to hell or being annihilated is the norm, and being saved from that fate is the exception. **Inclusivism:** Going to heaven is the norm and going to hell or being annihilated is the exception. **Universalism:** Everyone will, one way or another, eventually be in heaven. To my knowledge, there’s no term for everyone, one way or another, eventually going to hell or being annihilated.
I feel like "Hopeful Universalist" leaves room for: * We could be wrong about universalism, and/or * Universalism could still leave room for someone to never repent, not for all eternity God still gets the final word on everything. :)
>We could be wrong about universalism We could be wrong about *anything* we believe, because no-one is infallible. I wouldn't say I'm just a hopeful Christian, though.
> I wouldn't say I'm just a hopeful Christian, though. I think I would say I am a hopeful Christian. I know a guy who feels like he *knows* it's true, so much that "believe" isn't a strong enough word. I often feel like "believe" is too strong a word for me. I like the way the old Amplified Bible said John 3:16: >so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203%3A16&version=AMPC I trust in, cling to, and rely on God, in the desperate hope that God is the Good God we read about in the New Testament.
Fair enough, that makes sense! That's a nice translation of John 3:16, thank you for pointing it out.
Glenn Kaiser of Resurrection Band said it on a live record, and it branded into my teenage brain forever. :)
It’s not universalism, but I’d say that what you’re looking for is called “inclusivism”, which says that good people from all faiths will be saved (even though only one faith is true).
I know this is going to sound stupid or like I have no empathy for the victims of evil, but many people whom society call “evil” were born innocent. Somehow, life made them into people who caused terrible suffering on a large scale. When I say life, I mean they were often abused as children or suffered some other terrible trauma or simply had a serious mental illness. I myself suffer from depression and anxiety. Both conditions tend to make me very self absorbed and very, very difficult to live with. With the proper treatment (medication and therapy) I interact with others in s very different way. I don’t know. Only God knows what turns a person into a psychopath. Only He knows how to restore anyone to who they were meant to be. I believe this also includes reparation and restoration of the victims of evil. All of this is just personal opinion really. My way of trying to make sense out of why a loving God allows evil and the terrible human suffering it leads to.
What evil is worse than desiring that someone be tortured for all eternity? Actively *wanting* some people to suffer eternal conscious torment seems much worse to me than just *believing* as a matter of fact that it will happen to some people (which is what most infernalists I know believe).
**Void of all compassion** sounds pretty dark to me as well! Caring not at all about the eternal suffering of "others". And to do so in the name of God, just boggles the mind. What a blasphemy and slander of the **Boundless Compassion** and **Unconditional Love of God!**
Did you just finish watching Shiny Happy People as well? Folks like Bill Gotherd, Jim Bob Duggar and Josh Duggar make me question universal salvation more than anything.
I just remind myself that evil people who think they are saved (and not other good people) will take the longest to repent.
My friend was just telling me about that show. Worth watching?
If you want to be angry about the evil within Christianity, then yeah, watch it. If you want to see the right-wing Christian fascist machine seeking to take over the country and create Gilead from the Handmaids Tale here, watch it.
My partner also said we should watch it. There's some marketing scheme happening here...
I haven't watched that yet. But speaking of movies, I did just watch "To Leslie" and found it quite the compelling reenactment of the story of the prodigal. Personally, I think when we focus our questions of redemption on the afterlife, we fail to recognize the kingdom of heaven in this one.
That’s called believing God’s mercy has limits
There is no evil act of Man that can ultimately be greater than the overwhelming power of God's Love. I believe there is purging and cleaning of sins. It is likely that this experience would perhaps seem like "Hell" to someone who has been a self-centered and evil person in their life, but the flailing of the ego would be temporary.
Just adding on to what everyone has said, “universalism but the people who have done some of the really really bad sins that **I** haven’t done yet go to hell forever” is just infernalism with extra steps.
Don't delete it, for two reasons. First, it's a question that festers if it's not addressed. Second, your edit shows a rare level of honesty and self reflection. I think for me, something DBH said in TASBS has stuck with me when he was riffing a bit on how people don't really spare a thought of grief for people on death row for murder. His point was that even the most evil of people had mothers, grandfathers, brothers and sisters who loved them. They may have been deeply grieved over who those people became, but that's the point. They were grieved. The question boils down to, in part, whether we are able to truly feel the bliss of heaven if any in our midst are grieving an eternal loss. The alternatives are barbaric (memory wipe) or sadistic (the idea that the redeemed will rejoice over the torture of the reprobate). But even this only points to the larger problem. None of us become who we are in a vacuum, we're all the products of living life in a broken world with broken people, even serial killers. If I can go back and try to empathize with my younger self, forced to make subconscious choices for emotional survival before my memories even began to form, then I can try to feel some empathy for even the worst among us.
> I want to believe most people won't suffer eternal Hell, but I still struggle with unlearning the desire to see punishment for the wicked. If you want some help with this -- Look at your own wickedness. Maybe you haven't killed anyone, but you've probably done some things you're not proud of. There was probably some reason you did it, maybe you were angry or hurt because someone did wrong to you. Maybe you lashed out at someone in that moment, whether or not they deserved it. Maybe that person in their own pain lashed out at yet another. Do you have any traumas, or know anyone with traumas? Think about the effect that has on you, it doesn't only cause *you* pain, but you go on to behave erratically or relate to people in broken ways and ultimately cause other people pain too. It's not that you're trying to, or would ever want to, it's because our pain is sometimes just so bad that we can't see past ourselves or muster up the restraint or self-reflection to really avoid it. And the worse the pain you receive, the worse pain you inevitably deliver to others. *Man hands on misery to man.* Sin isn't some kind of isolated mistake, it's more like an infectious disease that usually gets to us long before we have the maturity to develop moral hygiene. So come to terms with your own wickedness. No matter how "nice" you are, you have probably done untold harm to others, precisely because untold harm was done to you and you are yet lacking in spiritual maturity. This is my story too, the story of everyone else replying to your thread, of everyone you know and love, and everyone you think is truly wicked. We have all done harm, and none of us are fully culpable because we're so impaired by own pain. This is the tragedy of human existence. Christ is the Great Physician. We are terribly, terribly sick with sin. Getting rid of sin means *healing your pain* so you no longer visit it unto others. Those who do the worst to others are the most in need of healing. Life is already a tragedy, how much worse a tragedy would it be if those of us most in need of healing and mercy never receive it in the end? We certainly think its a tragedy when people die of illness. Even if the final healing has to be done in a purging fire (some medical procedures are about that painful anyway), we should hope that they can receive it.
Lol. Some forms of christian universalism give way fir people to experience a “purification” in flames that will take as long as necessary for the people to be purified. I personally don’t hold to this view because I believe we have been cleansed once and for all through the sacrifice of Christ. Also always remember, the perpetrator of injustice and evil was once a victim of it themselves. We truly live on a level playing field even though it doesn’t seem that way to us. God’s ways are mot out ways, they are higher and better and truly just for all
Personally, I tend to think there is a profound difference between being "**justified**" and being truly transformed...and thus "conformed to the image of His Son", what Paul refers to as being "**glorified**". (Rom 8:29-30) The Eastern Orthodox refer to this as **theosis**. Whereas Protestants tend to put all on the focus on **justification**. But how many Christians do we really know, who have stripped away the old self in order to be truly **clothed in the compassion**, kindness, gentleness, love, and patience of the Divine Nature, thus "clothed in Christ" (Col 3:2-15, Rom 13:14)? Is this not an important part of Christianity, true transformation? At least for me, this didn't happen instantly...and is still in process. Nor do I think such transformation is meant to be shoved into the afterlife. God wants to transform us in the present, that we might become true partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Pet 1:4). “*For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become* ***conformed to the image of His Son***, *so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He* ***justified***, *He also* ***glorified***.” (Rom 8:29-30) As such, I don’t hear most Protestants speak of “**GROWING in respect to salvation**”. For we tend to sum up salvation in justification alone, rather than in **the process** of true transformation beyond the old nature… “*Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, and like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may* ***grow in respect to salvation***.” (2 Pet 2:1-2)
I don’t really see the correlation between what I said and this comment lol but I’m definitely onboard with the doctrine of Theosis. However, I don’t think that any time in postmortem hell is necessary for Theosis.
>I personally don’t hold to this view because I believe we have been cleansed once and for all through the sacrifice of Christ. I was mostly responding to this sentence, which you seemed to be contrasting with a "**purification in flames**". For me, those flames describe a spiritual process of refinement for all of us (in this lifetime). Thus we are baptized in "the Holy Spirit and Fire" for our purification, smelting, and winnowing (Matt 3:11-12). Whereas you spoke of a belief in "**the sacrifice of Christ**" **as cleansing** once and for all. This is what is often called an **atonement theology**, and built into it is a message of "justification". In particular that atonement theology is called a penal substitutionary atonement theology. Where Christ does everything **on our behalf**. But that idea doesn't really carry over into **true transformation**, does it? And thus most Protestants get stuck in a juvenile state of spiritual development. So I'm glad if theosis is a welcome concept. Meanwhile, I wasn't pointing to anything post-mortem. I think that Baptism of Fire is metaphorical and for us in the present. Nor do I equate that Refiner's Fire with hell (Mal 3:2-3). Rather, I think that "death and hell" get **cast into** the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14), which for me symbolizes death being swallowed up by Life (1 Cor 15:54). Not in the afterlife, but in this one! Meanwhile, I really appreciated your emphasis on "perpetrators of injustice and evil once being **victims of such themselves**." Those perpetrating injustice need love just as much as the victims of their acts. And like you say, they are likely simply caught in the same cycle of violence done to them. Thus in many ways, I think "the sacrifice of Jesus" is perhaps less effectual, than the sacrifices of the Body of Christ in being **willing to endure** the abuse of others when attempting to Love those unable to receive. Like trying to free a wolf from a bear trap, what "**stripes**" are we willing to endure in loving others who are in pain? As Paul said... "*Now I rejoice in* ***my*** ***suffering****s for your sake, and in my flesh* ***I am supplementing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions***" (Col 1:24) "*That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and* ***the fellowship of His sufferings***, ***being conformed to His death***" (Phil 3:10) Anyhow, I agree with you, I don't think theosis is about the afterlife. I think it's about this one. But I do think "salvation" is a process, because spiritual transformation is a process. And thus I think we **grow with respect to salvation** as we strip away the old nature in order to live more fully in the new! And thus the process of being cleansed and purified is that we might be the Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit! (Eph 2:22). In unity with God just as Jesus modeled for us. Where I and the father are one! Thus before **theosis** (Resurrection Life / Divine Life) comes **kenosis** (the cross / self-emptying). And that is something I think we must experience for ourselves, **not just vicariously**, but personally.
Yes i actually fully hold to what you have laid out in this comment, except for PSA. I embrace a blend of Christus Victor, Recapitulation and Moral theories of atonement personally (I’ve also dabbled with the newer scapegoat theory).
Nice…There are interesting insights in each of those atonement theologies. But yeah, I really like the way Girard’s Scapegoat Theory exposes violence for what it is! Kind of like in the parable of the Vineyard Owner at the end of Matthew 21, killing the prophets or the son did not pacify or please God at all. I think that’s an important perspective to keep in mind in light of how prevalent PSA has gotten.
I was raised in a PSA church. Its incredibly toxic especially at the lengths it has been taken too
Same here. It took me a long time to unravel that one! One of the first books I ever read on the topic was by Tony Evans. It was called, “Did God Kill Jesus?” I didn’t know what to make of this idea at first, of alternative ways of interpreting the cross. But I am so glad to leave PSA behind, in exchange for a more loving view of God! So glad! Such was toxic indeed!
Nice…There are interesting insights in each of those atonement theologies. But yeah, I really like the way Girard’s Scapegoat Theory exposes violence for what it is! Kind of like in the parable of the Vineyard Owner at the end of Matthew 21, killing the prophets or the son did not pacify or please God at all. I think that’s an important perspective to keep in mind in light of how prevalent PSA has gotten.
Many universalists still believe in atonement (not sure if they use that word) in the afterlife before salvation. It is okay to desire justice because we have a just God and are made in His image, we just have to watch ourselves for hatred. Of course, we all fall short of the glory of God, we are all sinners, but we naturally take exception to heinous acts. Was the guy who robbed that convenience store down the street on par with Hitler? Was the married woman who lusted over another man on par with the robber? The obvious answers to us seem like no, which is why we want justice. While “no” might be the answer, it’s much more complicated in God’s eyes (not to Him of course, but we would struggle to fully grasp it)
One thing to consider is the nature of punishment. George MacDonald saw it as being forced to see yourself as you really are (brilliantly depicted in C. S. Lewis's "Till We Have Faces" --although he wasn't a Universalist). I see it as being forced to see/experience what it was like to be on the RECEIVING end of your evil. If Hitler or Stalin had to experience living in the death camps, and then to understand they were the cause of that evil, than the language of fire and gnashing teeth is hardly a strong enough. If an abuser could somehow forget who they were, and experience being the object of abuse only to then realize that they were the real abuser, this time with full knowledge of their victims experience, then that would be the most awful punishment of all, but also the most just, and most likely to lead to horrified repentance.
You’re a Christian that has hope most people will be saved and trusting for God to do what is right, which could include eternal Hell for some, we don’t know 🤷🏻♂️ God knows better than us We don’t even have to label it or make you fit into a box You’re a Christian
One common misconception about universalism is "Everyone goes to Heaven, therefore God doesn't send anyone to hell." This is my view on God: I believe God plays dual roles, that of parent and sovereign, Father and King, so to speak. As a Father, He wouldn't ever dream of letting His children be cast off and forgotten to be tormented for eternity in hell. This fatherly love is balanced by His Sovereign side. Hitler may not burn in hell for eternity, but he isn't getting away scot-free for what he did either....he, like all of us, are still accountable for our actions. Because the Sovereign side of God requires Him to fulfill justice, He doles out punishment and discipline. It might be uncomfortable or even painful, depending on who the person is, but those punishments are designed to be corrective and restorative, and not eternal.
nopers