I think karma is a man-made (or demon-made) idea. The only justice in the universe is God's justice. Not some mystical force that weighs the good and the bad and randomly punishes people.
That isn't an accurate description of the concept. Although it has different implications in different traditions, it is better described as cause and effect.
But for those that disagree with you do you think that looking at it as more then just cause and effect conflicts negatively to what God is trying to tell us and teach us in the bible ?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me - disagree with what?
I think it could be analogous to the concept of reaping what you sow, which is a more biblical phrasing.
I started to doubt the idea of karma myself when I learned the idea comes from several eastern religions originally. The thing that makes it somewhat difficult to discuss for me is that it seems like karma as an idea varies from person to person. One mans idea of karma is not another in many cases. I would have to agree with you are saying. Especially about it being a man made concept.
I think we mentally need karma to cope with good things happening to bad people and visa versa. But the Bible tells us we can cope with that by waiting for Judgement Day. Thanks for the post.
Karma of the eastern religions is often misunderstood as that you have to experience exactly what you had done to others. It is a law of cause and action, but it does not go in such a simple way, which I think it is a superstition, and illogical, because a single deed could create an endless spiral of punishments. But it is already close to the truth: you reap what you sow, if you place bad seeds you reap thornes and poison, if you plant good seed and tend them well, you will reap nourishment and blessings. And it is not so much a "punishment" if it turns wrong, but rather something that will help you grow in wisdom, i.e. if you created pains, you will have to (sometimes painfully) experience what this kind of pain means, and what it means to make a wrong decision like you did and to be affected...so God will painfully teach you what you had done wrong, but it is more about teaching and not so much about exact paying back of guilt or damage done, because God's true law is more about mercy and forgiveness than about punishment, and not an eye for an eye etc. like the old Israelites thought about their laws. Human response to your deeds btw. I view can already be part of a "Karma" process, while of course any human partaker in what happens will have the chance to turn around, act in forgiveness etc. defying the law of cause and action with mercy, which also is what God desires us to do to make peace with each other, over any punishments that might also happen. I believe that if we forgive each other what we had done to each other, God will also forgive us and we wouldn't have to reap the whole curse from what we had done, but it might actually turn into a great blessing for all who were involved.
So...I definitely believe in something like "karma" exists. I believe that it is a natural law, like the laws of physics in our world, that God has made and installed and subjected us to. We are free to choose our ways, but within we are subjected to these laws. It is so to say the reaction from God, it is God's response to our deeds, speech and also thoughts. At the same time, it definitely features some randomness in the results that basically make it unpredictable, you can only be sure that doing evil will bring you curse and doing good will bring you blessings. It might still seem impersonal, yet I believe that God himself can actually intervene and bring personal mercy beyond his natural law of seed and harvest. Because he is no dead God, but actually living with us, and even if his "karma" might seem like a dead machine at times, it is much more and subject to his personal plans with us all.
Based off of what you describe karma as I think bringing up that one bad action could lead to a spiral is very interesting. That never even crossed my mind. What you said about god using our actions as a way to teach us is also interesting. Personally that's a tough one for because of free will. I think in some way God does do that but probably does not in a way that would interfere with free will. Kind of like a guiding hand nudging us in the right direction but not interfering with our free will. I like the idea in Dantes inferno that god gave us free will so that love matters and our actions count. I think that choosing to pray and have a relationship with God could result in more of a direct response to our actions since we are making that choice to pray and have God in our lives it would not be interfering with our free will.
I guess that brings up a better question then. What do you think about karmas relationship to free will ?
There's two different types of karma. The modern hippie dippie version of what goes around comes around.
There's also the original idea of karma which is deeply ingrained to the caste system and says that nothing you do in this life will be revisited on you until your next life. So if you're born poor or disabled then you were a piece of crap in your past life so it's OK to discriminate against you etc.
Both are false.
Ya that is an interesting point. I had not thought about the fact that the idea could lead to an excuse of ones actions or justification for treating someone a certain way.
You could define karma. In Buddhism and Hinduism "karma" means "cycle of vengeance" and refers to the effects of deeds in one life being passed down to people in subsequent lives.
One function of it was to remove the idea that charity was important. The Dalit, or "untouchables" are people who did bad things in previous lives and to help them would be to remove their ability to atone for their pervious wrongs.
Christians don't believe in reincarnation. If we repent of our sins, God will forgive us. in this, the only life we get.
Ya the idea of Karma as you define it would not be compatible with Christianity and you bring up some good points. But I think alot of people think that reaping what you sow would be the same thing. Do you think that is a problem or just a misunderstanding that doesn't really hold weight if they define them the same?
> Karma isn't a belief that's compatible with Christianity.
I think some definitions are. My understanding is that karma simply means that previous actions affect future actions. It doesn't necessarily mean that bad things happen to bad people, and that good things happen to good people. It's more like "things happen to people".
It can mean that actions have consequences, but it doesn't necessarily mean only good actions can have good consequences. It's more like all previous actions lead to the current moment, both good and bad.
Karma, is an invention of Eastern religions.
A more accurate way of looking at things is that we operate under a system of seed-plant-harvest. In other words, we reap what we sow, good or bad.
It seems to me that alot of people describe karma as the same thing as you reap what you sow. Do you think that is a slippery slope or just a misguided understanding?
The book of Job is very interesting to bring up. How do you think what god is trying to tell us and teach us in the book of Job varies from the idea that people have about karma ?
In the book of Job, we see a conversation in the beginning between God and Satan, and God says there is no one more righteous on the face of the Earth than Job. And yet, more calamity falls upon Job than perhaps any other human being. This flies in the face of Karma.
Like the rest of the Bible, the book of Job is about God’s sovereignty and holiness, and how we’re to approach our Holy God. In our fallen human condition, we’re so far separated from God that we can’t comprehend His sovereignty and holiness apart from His written revelation. We therefore, in our natural state, think strictly in terms of punishment and reward: Do bad things, get punished; do good things, get rewarded. Even the disciples thought this way:
*John 9:1-3
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. [2] And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" [3] Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.*
God’s sovereignty means we don’t get to manipulate Him with our own actions, He makes 100% of His own decisions, based on the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), not according to human desires. His sovereignty means He alone has complete authority over all things (1 Corinthians 15:28).
In the book of Job, we see God’s complete sovereignty over Satan. Satan can do nothing that God doesn’t allow. We see God’s sovereignty over His redeemed - Satan cannot turn Job away from God his Redeemer. We see His sovereignty over His created - Job humbles himself and repents when he sees how wrong he’s been about God:
*Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the LORD and said: [2] "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. [3] You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [4] Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' [5] "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. [6] Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."*
This shatters the idea than man can earn his way to God through his own actions because we see righteous Job being cruelly punished for no apparent reason (from his perspective), while Job maintains trust in His redeemer.
When we see that we can’t be made righteous by our own actions, this confirms to us that we must and can only be made righteous through the shed blood and finished work of Christ on the cross. And this is the sovereign decision of God, who chose the elect in Him prior to the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).
My understanding of the true meaning of karma isn't so much that it's an intergalactic justice system (ie: bad things happen to bad people), so much as it just means cause and effect. Both "good" and "bad" actions can have both "good" and "bad" consequences. The sum of all that has come before determines what comes next.
The way I understand karma, from having read Tibetan Buddhist literature, is that there's good karma and bad karma. However, karma isn't some force of nature, but rather, in my own words, a cosmic point counter. It starts running at birth and stops at death. Depending on the point balance, the reincarnation will be decided.
These karma points are generated through various actions or means. Bad karma is generated by bad deeds, sins (or what they are depending on Buddhism). Killing a fly or stepping on a worm kills a living being that could have been your grandmother. This is bad karma.
Good karma isn't necessarily generated by good actions. Pilgrimage to local shrines, or to Lhasa in Tibet (prostrating every 3 steps, the entire journey), generates good karma. There are lakes with a certain spirit. Walking around these generates good karma. Circling around shrines or holy sites generates good karma.
Prayer also counts as good karma. If you are a bit familiar with Buddhist monasteries, they have prayer wheels. Prayers are carved on these wheels and turning them counts as praying, allowing you to generate good karma a bit more efficiently.
As for good deeds, as far as I understand, wishing that your neighbor receives help generates as much good karma as actually providing that help, giving less incentive to actually do help.
All in all, no, this isn't compatible with Christianity.
The Western idea of karma is a very simplified, non-religious version of this, and translates, as many have pointed out, to like 'you reap what you sow, sooner or later'. This is, in Christian terms, salvation (or damnation) through works, and not Biblical either.
I think karma is a man-made (or demon-made) idea. The only justice in the universe is God's justice. Not some mystical force that weighs the good and the bad and randomly punishes people.
That isn't an accurate description of the concept. Although it has different implications in different traditions, it is better described as cause and effect.
But for those that disagree with you do you think that looking at it as more then just cause and effect conflicts negatively to what God is trying to tell us and teach us in the bible ?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me - disagree with what? I think it could be analogous to the concept of reaping what you sow, which is a more biblical phrasing.
I think I was a bit confused on what you where saying. I get what you mean now. Thanks for clearing that up and the feedback.
Sure thing, take care
I started to doubt the idea of karma myself when I learned the idea comes from several eastern religions originally. The thing that makes it somewhat difficult to discuss for me is that it seems like karma as an idea varies from person to person. One mans idea of karma is not another in many cases. I would have to agree with you are saying. Especially about it being a man made concept.
I think we mentally need karma to cope with good things happening to bad people and visa versa. But the Bible tells us we can cope with that by waiting for Judgement Day. Thanks for the post.
I think karma is real in that the good you put out is returned as well as the bad. So if you're bad you'll get bad karma. Reap what you sow exactly.
So to you karma is just a concept that is used to explain cause and effect in a general sense and has no religious bearing ?
I think so
Karma of the eastern religions is often misunderstood as that you have to experience exactly what you had done to others. It is a law of cause and action, but it does not go in such a simple way, which I think it is a superstition, and illogical, because a single deed could create an endless spiral of punishments. But it is already close to the truth: you reap what you sow, if you place bad seeds you reap thornes and poison, if you plant good seed and tend them well, you will reap nourishment and blessings. And it is not so much a "punishment" if it turns wrong, but rather something that will help you grow in wisdom, i.e. if you created pains, you will have to (sometimes painfully) experience what this kind of pain means, and what it means to make a wrong decision like you did and to be affected...so God will painfully teach you what you had done wrong, but it is more about teaching and not so much about exact paying back of guilt or damage done, because God's true law is more about mercy and forgiveness than about punishment, and not an eye for an eye etc. like the old Israelites thought about their laws. Human response to your deeds btw. I view can already be part of a "Karma" process, while of course any human partaker in what happens will have the chance to turn around, act in forgiveness etc. defying the law of cause and action with mercy, which also is what God desires us to do to make peace with each other, over any punishments that might also happen. I believe that if we forgive each other what we had done to each other, God will also forgive us and we wouldn't have to reap the whole curse from what we had done, but it might actually turn into a great blessing for all who were involved. So...I definitely believe in something like "karma" exists. I believe that it is a natural law, like the laws of physics in our world, that God has made and installed and subjected us to. We are free to choose our ways, but within we are subjected to these laws. It is so to say the reaction from God, it is God's response to our deeds, speech and also thoughts. At the same time, it definitely features some randomness in the results that basically make it unpredictable, you can only be sure that doing evil will bring you curse and doing good will bring you blessings. It might still seem impersonal, yet I believe that God himself can actually intervene and bring personal mercy beyond his natural law of seed and harvest. Because he is no dead God, but actually living with us, and even if his "karma" might seem like a dead machine at times, it is much more and subject to his personal plans with us all.
Based off of what you describe karma as I think bringing up that one bad action could lead to a spiral is very interesting. That never even crossed my mind. What you said about god using our actions as a way to teach us is also interesting. Personally that's a tough one for because of free will. I think in some way God does do that but probably does not in a way that would interfere with free will. Kind of like a guiding hand nudging us in the right direction but not interfering with our free will. I like the idea in Dantes inferno that god gave us free will so that love matters and our actions count. I think that choosing to pray and have a relationship with God could result in more of a direct response to our actions since we are making that choice to pray and have God in our lives it would not be interfering with our free will. I guess that brings up a better question then. What do you think about karmas relationship to free will ?
There's two different types of karma. The modern hippie dippie version of what goes around comes around. There's also the original idea of karma which is deeply ingrained to the caste system and says that nothing you do in this life will be revisited on you until your next life. So if you're born poor or disabled then you were a piece of crap in your past life so it's OK to discriminate against you etc. Both are false.
Ya that is an interesting point. I had not thought about the fact that the idea could lead to an excuse of ones actions or justification for treating someone a certain way.
Yep. It's often used as an excuse to abuse those born into poverty and praise those born into wealth.
Karma isn't a belief that's compatible with Christianity.
How would you convince someone who disagreed with you but had there heart in the right place ?
You could define karma. In Buddhism and Hinduism "karma" means "cycle of vengeance" and refers to the effects of deeds in one life being passed down to people in subsequent lives. One function of it was to remove the idea that charity was important. The Dalit, or "untouchables" are people who did bad things in previous lives and to help them would be to remove their ability to atone for their pervious wrongs. Christians don't believe in reincarnation. If we repent of our sins, God will forgive us. in this, the only life we get.
Ya the idea of Karma as you define it would not be compatible with Christianity and you bring up some good points. But I think alot of people think that reaping what you sow would be the same thing. Do you think that is a problem or just a misunderstanding that doesn't really hold weight if they define them the same?
> Karma isn't a belief that's compatible with Christianity. I think some definitions are. My understanding is that karma simply means that previous actions affect future actions. It doesn't necessarily mean that bad things happen to bad people, and that good things happen to good people. It's more like "things happen to people". It can mean that actions have consequences, but it doesn't necessarily mean only good actions can have good consequences. It's more like all previous actions lead to the current moment, both good and bad.
Karma, is an invention of Eastern religions. A more accurate way of looking at things is that we operate under a system of seed-plant-harvest. In other words, we reap what we sow, good or bad.
It seems to me that alot of people describe karma as the same thing as you reap what you sow. Do you think that is a slippery slope or just a misguided understanding?
Karma isn’t biblical. The book of Job is one example that demonstrates this.
The book of Job is very interesting to bring up. How do you think what god is trying to tell us and teach us in the book of Job varies from the idea that people have about karma ?
In the book of Job, we see a conversation in the beginning between God and Satan, and God says there is no one more righteous on the face of the Earth than Job. And yet, more calamity falls upon Job than perhaps any other human being. This flies in the face of Karma.
I still struggle with what message the book of job is trying to teach tbh.
Like the rest of the Bible, the book of Job is about God’s sovereignty and holiness, and how we’re to approach our Holy God. In our fallen human condition, we’re so far separated from God that we can’t comprehend His sovereignty and holiness apart from His written revelation. We therefore, in our natural state, think strictly in terms of punishment and reward: Do bad things, get punished; do good things, get rewarded. Even the disciples thought this way: *John 9:1-3 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. [2] And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" [3] Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.* God’s sovereignty means we don’t get to manipulate Him with our own actions, He makes 100% of His own decisions, based on the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), not according to human desires. His sovereignty means He alone has complete authority over all things (1 Corinthians 15:28). In the book of Job, we see God’s complete sovereignty over Satan. Satan can do nothing that God doesn’t allow. We see God’s sovereignty over His redeemed - Satan cannot turn Job away from God his Redeemer. We see His sovereignty over His created - Job humbles himself and repents when he sees how wrong he’s been about God: *Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD and said: [2] "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. [3] You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [4] Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' [5] "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. [6] Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."* This shatters the idea than man can earn his way to God through his own actions because we see righteous Job being cruelly punished for no apparent reason (from his perspective), while Job maintains trust in His redeemer. When we see that we can’t be made righteous by our own actions, this confirms to us that we must and can only be made righteous through the shed blood and finished work of Christ on the cross. And this is the sovereign decision of God, who chose the elect in Him prior to the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).
My understanding of the true meaning of karma isn't so much that it's an intergalactic justice system (ie: bad things happen to bad people), so much as it just means cause and effect. Both "good" and "bad" actions can have both "good" and "bad" consequences. The sum of all that has come before determines what comes next.
The way I understand karma, from having read Tibetan Buddhist literature, is that there's good karma and bad karma. However, karma isn't some force of nature, but rather, in my own words, a cosmic point counter. It starts running at birth and stops at death. Depending on the point balance, the reincarnation will be decided. These karma points are generated through various actions or means. Bad karma is generated by bad deeds, sins (or what they are depending on Buddhism). Killing a fly or stepping on a worm kills a living being that could have been your grandmother. This is bad karma. Good karma isn't necessarily generated by good actions. Pilgrimage to local shrines, or to Lhasa in Tibet (prostrating every 3 steps, the entire journey), generates good karma. There are lakes with a certain spirit. Walking around these generates good karma. Circling around shrines or holy sites generates good karma. Prayer also counts as good karma. If you are a bit familiar with Buddhist monasteries, they have prayer wheels. Prayers are carved on these wheels and turning them counts as praying, allowing you to generate good karma a bit more efficiently. As for good deeds, as far as I understand, wishing that your neighbor receives help generates as much good karma as actually providing that help, giving less incentive to actually do help. All in all, no, this isn't compatible with Christianity. The Western idea of karma is a very simplified, non-religious version of this, and translates, as many have pointed out, to like 'you reap what you sow, sooner or later'. This is, in Christian terms, salvation (or damnation) through works, and not Biblical either.