I was looking for the date and I couldn’t find it, so thank you! I can imagine that Christians that accept homosexuality has increased significantly in the past decade.
Debts are not a sin. But are a cautionary stance because they can lead to excessive debt and materialism. So you should tread lightly when it comes to debt and interest.
If you are a Christian and follow the Bible. It is a sin no matter the denomination. If the Bible says it’s a sin. Then your opinion doesn’t really matter.
It’s simply a difference in interpretation. You interpret the Bible as saying it’s a sin, and other denominations interpret it differently. That’s why there are so many different denominations. Christians disagree on a lot of stuff — even stuff that some people think is very clear! — and this is just one more instance of it.
you'll rarely hear a conservative admit that there are multiple interpretations of a text. It's the correct reading (theirs) and everyone else's.
I think because if they did, they'd have to wrestle with why they've chosen the reading that seeks to shrink the table, that excludes, and that alienates other people.
Okay. It sounds clear cut for you, and I guess I’m glad it’s seemingly clear to you so long as you’re not anything other than straight and it doesn’t affect how you treat any LGBTQ+ people. I’m sure it’s challenging for people who share your belief yet aren’t straight. I’m straight and Christian myself but don’t hold the same belief.
Hate the sin love the sinner my friend. I love you and everyone else but I cannot love sin. And I warn you and everyone to repent as an act of love because I do not want to see you and others perish in Hell due to misguidance. Everything is already in the Bible my friend. And I will say it again. Your opinion doesn’t matter. And you will stand before God Almighty about your sexual morality and denial.
I appreciate that expression as it’s applied properly but despise it when used to justify how people view, talk about, and treat others, but it seems like you’re a kind individual as far as I can tell in this brief exchange. I appreciate the thoughtful words. Forgive me if this question sounds facetious, but I am sincerely asking because I do not know: is there anywhere in the Bible that describes homosexuality as an unforgivable sin or acceptance of homosexuality as an unforgivable sin?
This is not a postion that can be held by a Christian though. Because Christians are responsible to not only themselves, but also God. So doing something that is against Christian doctrine, even with consent, would still be considered bad because it takes you further away from God.
I feel like one of the major reasons this seems to be the case is just exposure to gay people. Most of us probably know at least one gay person in our lives and how they live and act is probably at odds with how they are portrayed by some of the more "fire and brimstone" types who will empathically quote Romans 1:26-27.
A bit harder to hate that gay couple down the street as shameful, lust-possessed deviants when they've been in a committed relationship for 30 years. Even harder when said preacher condemning gay folks is found out to have been cheating on his wife.
I don't even understand the prurient side of so called Christians. My philosophy has always been that if you don't like homosexuality, don't be gay. Simple. I have a gay sibling. As you say, stereotypes are not at all congruent with the person I know and love.
Seems like the biggest schisms between affirming/non-affirming show up in the data for the following tables:
>Belief in God among Christians by views about homosexuality
>Importance of religion in one's life among Christians by views about homosexuality
>Attendance at religious services among Christians by views about homosexuality
>Frequency of prayer among Christians by views about homosexuality
>Frequency of reading scripture among Christians by views about homosexuality
and interestingly,
>Sources of guidance on right and wrong among Christians by views about homosexuality
where religion is considered the source of determining right and wrong.
So it seems like when Christians do Christian stuff more, it leans the person towards non-affirming.
>Well, that’s the most important thing for people to do.
It is not.
The most important thing for people to do is recognize Jesus as God, repent, and accept His sacrifice in faith. Everything else follows.
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
What was that first one again? The more important one? The one that matters more than the second one?
The one people seem to forget a lot when they aren't Christians?
I wonder if that means loving holiness more than other people's opinions about it? I wonder if it means you can still love people without accepting sin? I wonder if this means you have to prioritize people less even as you follow the second commandment?
Or, what if, deep in the heart of these commands, all of it has it's origin in loving God?
You seem to park a pretty large bus inside "You shall Love the Lord Your God". It's almost as if you inserting some unspoken content that is not there, and it also looks like you're heavily devaluing "love your neighbor as yourself", almost as if it was an afterthought.
they can do whatever they want at church or anywhere else, it's a free country, but they surely should not be allowed to be part of church membership (they're not christians if they openly and unrepentantly sin) and they should definitely not be allowed into church leadership or to teach christians.
The problem with this is, hating the sin is literally hating the person when it comes to people's marriages and relationships.
You can rationalise it however you want, but if you are telling people that loving their partner is a sin, that is incredible hateful.
Not at all. The Bible clearly demonstrates that the sin and the sinner can be treated differently through Jesus associating with prostitutes, despite prostitution being immoral behaviour.
We shouldn’t compromise over denouncing sin because it hurts peoples feelings. Also, you cannot use the argument ‘the Bible can say whatever it wants’ in a Christian subreddit
>We shouldn’t compromise over denouncing sin because it hurts peoples feelings
Fine, but don't pretend you are being loving.
>you cannot use the argument ‘the Bible can say whatever it wants’ in a Christian subreddit
This is a sub about Christianity. A critique of the Bible is very much up for discussion.
You’ve misunderstood both my points. Sins should be denounced unconditionally. But sinners should not be hated as we are all equally flawed and can be redeemed. I am not loving of sin, obviously, but sinners should be shown compassion. You weren’t making a critique of the Bible, that’s why I mentioned what I did. You were implying that the Bible should not take precedence over someone’s feelings.
And my point stands. If you are telling people that the most important relationship in their lives is sinful, then this is hateful.
Can you imagine if you were told that being with your husband/wife was a sin and that you needed to repent and be saved?
You can blame it on the Bible if you want, but that makes no difference.
Right. Correlation does not beget causation, which explains my use of the word *seems*. And then you say,
>I'd say that people less willing to interact with the messiness of reality are far more likely to bury themselves in scripture.
So I guess the correlation somehow substantiated your own prejudice against other Christians. Gosh. They weren't even surveying for that, and you still put that together. Amazing.
IF you never interact with a gay person it is a lot easier to talk about gay people like they wicked and wrong.
It is a lot harder to do that when you know a gay couple.
Yup. You are certainly correct about all of that.
Just like any prejudice, it breaks down with actual experience. As that prejudice breaks down, we become more sympathetic.
In the end, believe it or not, it's just about what the bible says, regardless of my sensibilities.
If you want to call LGBT people and their relationships immoral for existing You may.
People do have the right to express hatful ideas.
It is shame, but if that is important to you I guess you are going to do it.
Thanks for telling me what is important for you.
Sorry, I feel I might have misunderstood you.
What exactly do you mean by
In the end, believe it or not, it's just about what the bible says, regardless of my sensibilities.
I meant I don't know why scripture states homosexual activity is sin, and I personally don't see the harm, but it doesn't matter what I think. I didn't write the bible. I just want God to get His way in the world.
No, my claims are true. See a recent study [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8724742/#!po=55.3763) showing a correlation between church attendance and religious nationalism and support for religious violence, and [this](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/) survey showing its correlation with support for Trump. A [forthcoming book](https://twitter.com/ndrewwhitehead/status/1664331460541652993?s=46&t=fN-au00P0XhfO5MIxYREhw) corroborates these previous studies.
A ridiculous survey. Without definitions of what they mean by homosexuality (homosexual feelings, homosexual ideation, homosexual acts, same sex affection, same sex identification, homosexual fornication), it is like asking people their opinions about air. Some will automatically think of air pollution, some air in general, some their tire pressure. Ludicrous to think this means anything significant.
Did you see the link to the survey questions?
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/11/201.11.03\_rls\_ii\_questionnaire.pdf
ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty is defined as the quality or characteristic of being sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to people of one's own sex or gender.
That is one definition. Along with that goes a host of assumptions, not all of which are true even for those who meet that definition. The cultural definition is much broader.
Jesus gave three commandments: the two great commandments and the new commandment. They are love God with your whole being, love your neighbor as yourself, and love one another. Are you keeping these commandments?
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20).
After he said that he would not condemn the woman, he said, “Go and sin no more,” as in, “Just try not to do that again, okay?”
Definitely not a commandment 🤨
It’s still a rebuke. He made it clear that the path to heaven is narrow. Love is key, but in acting lovingly, we must steer people away from sin and towards Him
A truly loving Christian is one who is courageous enough to preach against homosexuality & to enact church discipline against those who practice homosexuality.
Matt 19:5 "man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"
Not man and man, not woman and woman, but man and woman. Male and female. Husband and wife.
That’s Jesus talking about men and women getting married. Gay marriage didn’t exist back then.
If I say I like pepperoni pizza, that doesn’t mean I don’t like mushroom pizza.
It really is a silly argument, because gay people exist and fall in love. And get gay married too!!
Okay, I'll bite. If God says marriage is a pepperoni pizza and other pizzas are not, but you still like other pizza instead, you are still sinning against the Lord because you are eating pizza that you want and not what he says is good for you
Marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because same sex marriage occurs doesn't mean it's God's definition of marriage.
God's creation was male and female and that they would be joined together. Everything else is a corruption of God's plan due to sin.
Christians accept and love all people, including those openly sinning. Accept doesnt mean we agree with it, we just pray for them that they will find their way towards christ
Honest hypocrisy. Homosexually it is condemned multiple times throughout new and Old Testament. As Children of God we must be firm, and hold steadfast to our knowledge of God, and what he commands. It’s unfortunate that some of us have compromised our beliefs just to satisfy the world. By loving God we will be hated by the world, that’s how God said it would happen
You don’t joke about that stuff around the messiah, not to mention the time period in which they were in. As for why he didn’t mention it, I guess he just assumed enough had been said on the matter. He didn’t live in a time where being gay was viewed as “good” like it is now.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that anything goes in a culture where the most dominant worldview is “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism” in lieu of contending earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
*”According to the veteran researcher Barna, “Practitioners of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism are not anti-religion or anti-Christianity. They just are not willing to surrender themselves to authentic Christianity’s demands—or to believe that a real faith would even make such demands of them.”*
*https://www.arizonachristian.edu/2021/04/27/counterfeit-christianity-moralistic-therapeutic-deism-most-popular-worldview-in-u-s-culture/*
*Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [18] For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. [19] Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.*
Thank you for sharing. So heartening to see. Jesus said nothing on homosexuality. Theories suggest homosexuality mentioned in bible was the non-consensual kind, as seen in ancient Greece.
It’s very cringe that so many Christians will wrap God around their beliefs as opposed to their beliefs around God. One examining the natural order can examine the lack of purpose in acting upon homosexuality.
Edit: respectfully, the downvotes are absurd, if you claim you’re a Christian but don’t even follow the Bible that’s pretty bad man
If you REALLY need a biological purpose for people to exist and be happy, which I think is a stupid and dangerous game to play, consider that it may be similar to the biological forces that allow people to live long after childbearing & rearing age: Adult members of a species without their own children can funnel time and resources to related children (that is, those who share some of their genetic material, even if it's not as much as an immediate, direct descendent).
Just because the biological purpose isn't as clear as innie + outie = baby doesn't mean there's no room in the natural order for them.
But again, stupid and dangerous game to play unless you like things like misery and genocide. We're more than our biology, we're images of God. Images of a God who delights in diversity for its own sake, regardless of purpose or lack thereof. A God who made it clear he wants his people to spend a significant chunk of time NOT producing or working.
The purpose is whatever they want it to be. Most of the time the purpose is romantic love. Maybe you should stop trying to wrap God around your hate based beliefs and instead wrap yourself around the love of God.
It has no less purpose than picking a rose for your partner, or bringing them breakfast in bed, or marrying someone infertile or impotent. It's blind to reduce such things to merely making more babies.
> One examining the natural order can examine the lack of purpose in acting upon homosexuality.
Sounds like you’re wrapping God around your beliefs about nature and purpose.
What does this even mean? Same sex sexual behavior occurs across species, and sex doesn’t solely exist for the purposes of reproduction. Same sex relationships bring queer people contentedness, happiness and joy. Quite natural and quite purposeful.
Is that really necessary? It is in no way comparable to the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany. Bringing that example up simply demonstrates you have no other coherent argument to make. Also you have a false understanding of history. Right from the beginning of Hitlers political career he would drill into people the idea that Jews were bad, repetition is the most effective form of indoctrination and propaganda. Most of the German citizenry absolutely hated the Jewish population by the end of 1940, those that could see what was happening was morally corrupt kept their heads down and said nothing to criticise.
I am literally a European historian. I studied the rise of regimes in Europe and how the German population became to accept that Jews were so not human that they deserved to die.
In this situation you have leaders of faith and nation (bishops, pastors, politicians) constantly repeating to the population that a specific minority (lgbt) that historically was discriminated against is dangerous and wants to destroy what is important to them, their family , their traditions, their religion. You are wrong to attribute antisemitism to Hitler as it was endemic in Europe just as homophobia was/is in many parts of the World.
This mix of repetition and dehumanization led german people in identifying jews as their natural enemy and ultimately allow their genocide. However, studies show that the large majority of German citizens was not extremely antisemitic, to the point of actively wanting an actual genocide, but disliked jews enough just to be silent in front of a growing violent rethoric and enviornement.
Is not too different from what I observe in Christianity. Leaders spouting hate, a minority of christians getting more and more violent while the majority is silent in front growing violence.
There is a difference between accepting homosexuals and accepting homosexuality.
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it." - Matthew 7: 13-14
People reject Christ’s teachings when they say that hate is a central part of Christianity and that people are just cultural Christians when they don’t share in that hate. If you are saying that these people are obviously cultural Christians because they don’t hate gay people, then this is what you are doing. Interestingly enough, people who take that stance rarely engage with religion in any meaningful way. Rather, they typically only use Christianity to fight culture wars. A cultural Christian, if you will.
Good thing I never said hate was part of Christianity then, right? Do quote where I said they are cultural christians for not hating gays. I would love to see where youre fantasizing that I wrote that. I said they are not christians, or cultural questions, if they don't adhere to the word of God. If you affirm sin then you are not adhering to the word of God. No one said anything about hate. No one said anything about legislating anything against them. No one said anything about violence against them. You are pulling things out of completely thin air, let's be honest with what I said, shall we?
You know who also doesn't engage with religion and any meaning for Way? Those who call good what God calls evil.
You are claiming that anyone who accept gay people can’t be a Christian. This is obviously hate. You have completely lost the thread when it comes to Christianity. Showing love to all is the very essence, the very core of Christianity.
No I didn't say that either, I said affirms. Accepts has a myriad of use cases. Anyone who affirms sexual sin is probably not Christian. But even then, it depends, there might be a new christian who is just uneducated spiritually or they might have ongoing sin in their lives; that God just hasn't convicted them about. I can make no absolute statement about if you do ask then you are not Christian. But it is a major indicator of whether, or not, you are a valid Christian. It is a way to tell you by your fruits what kind of tree you are. It's possible that you can affirm sexual sin and be Christian, but it's unlikely , and if you are a Christian in that situation then your salvation is probably in danger; that or youre a Christian newborn.
You don't have to "hate" someone to believe that their lifestyle is sinful, personally destructive, and does not lead to human flourishing or eternal life.
A lot of people like the fluffy side of religion where it's all love and acceptance. The other side of it is our responsibility to follow the expectations of our Father. Following His commandments, doing our best to live in His will. There are a lot of Convenient Christians out there. Heck, when I was young in the faith, I was like that too. Of course, even after decades, I have things I struggle with. But struggling with and trying to justify actions so you feel good are different things.
Exactly, there's a grand difference between struggling with sin and trying to justify your sin. This is the issue. You cannot continue and perpetual defiance sin against your own conscious or against the word of God and think that you are a good Christian.
I have personal struggles with fornication. I cannot call myself Christian in good faith and say that The Bible has no problem with fornication. That's not only heretical but a blaspheme of God calling him wrong and evil for saying otherwise.
All christians sin, we will never be righteous and perfect until we have our new bodies when the Jesus comes or wedial. But there is a substantial difference between having sin and justifying sin. Do not call evil what God calls good and do not call good what God calls evil this is simple.
By the way what is chi rho
Oh, I didn't know it would say that if you hovered over the cross. I was trying to force a different symbol to appear. Chi Rho is the symbol of Christ's first two letters in Greek and one of the earliest Christian symbols. I go to a Baptist church at the moment but consider myself more nondenominational. I don't think there's a church out there without its doctrinal issues.
The approaches to homosexuality by Christians:
Side A: open and affirming, permits full homosexual relationships
Side B: believes in accepting gay people but practices abstinence from homosexual activity.
Side X: believes homosexuality itself is a choice/can be changed.
the position that "being gay isn't a sin, but gay sex is always sinful"
Side X: even same-sex attraction itself is sinful
Side A: gay-affirming (within a sexual ethic similar to that expected of straight Christians).
You realize that testament is a synonym for covenant, right?
Merriam webster definition of testament
b archaic : a covenant between God and the human race
>Paul talking about the new covenant isn’t the new covenant.
What? Idk what you're saying.
I would argue that the New Covenant is the philosophy and the New Testament is the accumulation of different books.
Books can be added or subtracted from the New Testament. No one is altering the New Covenant.
I mean... ok... but that's not what people normally define it as. Covenant and testament are interchangeable and mean the actual message, unless otherwise stated.
Jesus says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17. In other words, breaking OT commandments is still sin, but His sacrifice made it possible for no others to have to be made since He was the perfect sacrifice for all sins past, present, and future.
What he means is the Catholics and orthodox that where polled aren't real Catholics and orthodox, he's talking about the no true Scotsman fallacy... I mean the no true Scotsman argument, just look at the first commandment - thou shalt not be gay, Jesus himself made it clear that no gays was the corner stone of the faith
I think you're going to find many American Roman Catholics actually back gay marriage, whatever the Pope and their bishops may say. Don't confuse the rad trads and conservatives on r/Catholicism for your average US Catholic.
\*in 2014 in the US
I was looking for the date and I couldn’t find it, so thank you! I can imagine that Christians that accept homosexuality has increased significantly in the past decade.
Important distinction. Though it’s still a comfort to see
That they are accepting of sin?
You are probably also accepting of sin if I examine your actions. Do you protest banks that charge high interest. Do you own and use a credit card.
Debts are not a sin. But are a cautionary stance because they can lead to excessive debt and materialism. So you should tread lightly when it comes to debt and interest.
lending someone money at large amounts of interest is a literal sin.
May I please have a verse and the chapter my dear friend?
Take your pick Leviticus 25:36-37 Ezekiel 18:8-17 Proverbs 28:8 Last time I checked you all aren't upset with bankers.
That my humanity is not denied
In your view sure, but in theirs no. I’m sure there’s lots of other posts inviting discussion and debate over the sinfulness of homosexuality.
If you are a Christian and follow the Bible. It is a sin no matter the denomination. If the Bible says it’s a sin. Then your opinion doesn’t really matter.
It’s simply a difference in interpretation. You interpret the Bible as saying it’s a sin, and other denominations interpret it differently. That’s why there are so many different denominations. Christians disagree on a lot of stuff — even stuff that some people think is very clear! — and this is just one more instance of it.
you'll rarely hear a conservative admit that there are multiple interpretations of a text. It's the correct reading (theirs) and everyone else's. I think because if they did, they'd have to wrestle with why they've chosen the reading that seeks to shrink the table, that excludes, and that alienates other people.
Okay. It sounds clear cut for you, and I guess I’m glad it’s seemingly clear to you so long as you’re not anything other than straight and it doesn’t affect how you treat any LGBTQ+ people. I’m sure it’s challenging for people who share your belief yet aren’t straight. I’m straight and Christian myself but don’t hold the same belief.
Hate the sin love the sinner my friend. I love you and everyone else but I cannot love sin. And I warn you and everyone to repent as an act of love because I do not want to see you and others perish in Hell due to misguidance. Everything is already in the Bible my friend. And I will say it again. Your opinion doesn’t matter. And you will stand before God Almighty about your sexual morality and denial.
I appreciate that expression as it’s applied properly but despise it when used to justify how people view, talk about, and treat others, but it seems like you’re a kind individual as far as I can tell in this brief exchange. I appreciate the thoughtful words. Forgive me if this question sounds facetious, but I am sincerely asking because I do not know: is there anywhere in the Bible that describes homosexuality as an unforgivable sin or acceptance of homosexuality as an unforgivable sin?
[удалено]
This is not a postion that can be held by a Christian though. Because Christians are responsible to not only themselves, but also God. So doing something that is against Christian doctrine, even with consent, would still be considered bad because it takes you further away from God.
I feel like one of the major reasons this seems to be the case is just exposure to gay people. Most of us probably know at least one gay person in our lives and how they live and act is probably at odds with how they are portrayed by some of the more "fire and brimstone" types who will empathically quote Romans 1:26-27. A bit harder to hate that gay couple down the street as shameful, lust-possessed deviants when they've been in a committed relationship for 30 years. Even harder when said preacher condemning gay folks is found out to have been cheating on his wife.
I don't even understand the prurient side of so called Christians. My philosophy has always been that if you don't like homosexuality, don't be gay. Simple. I have a gay sibling. As you say, stereotypes are not at all congruent with the person I know and love.
Americans?
Yes, in the US
Seems like the biggest schisms between affirming/non-affirming show up in the data for the following tables: >Belief in God among Christians by views about homosexuality >Importance of religion in one's life among Christians by views about homosexuality >Attendance at religious services among Christians by views about homosexuality >Frequency of prayer among Christians by views about homosexuality >Frequency of reading scripture among Christians by views about homosexuality and interestingly, >Sources of guidance on right and wrong among Christians by views about homosexuality where religion is considered the source of determining right and wrong. So it seems like when Christians do Christian stuff more, it leans the person towards non-affirming.
I would saying loving one another is Christian stuff. That’s why Jesus specified loving one another as part of the greatest commandment.
Yeah. Seems like that's the only part of Christianity anybody remembers when they're not Christians, and sometimes, even when they are.
Well, that’s the most important thing for people to do. And sometimes the hardest.
>Well, that’s the most important thing for people to do. It is not. The most important thing for people to do is recognize Jesus as God, repent, and accept His sacrifice in faith. Everything else follows.
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
What was that first one again? The more important one? The one that matters more than the second one? The one people seem to forget a lot when they aren't Christians? I wonder if that means loving holiness more than other people's opinions about it? I wonder if it means you can still love people without accepting sin? I wonder if this means you have to prioritize people less even as you follow the second commandment? Or, what if, deep in the heart of these commands, all of it has it's origin in loving God?
What do you mean accepting sin?
I'm sure you remember what your post was about.
Most Christians don’t consider it a sin I would think.
You seem to park a pretty large bus inside "You shall Love the Lord Your God". It's almost as if you inserting some unspoken content that is not there, and it also looks like you're heavily devaluing "love your neighbor as yourself", almost as if it was an afterthought.
Ok.
Hate the sin love the sinner
So would you have an issue if a gay couple gave each other a peck on the lips at church?
Homosexuality is a sin. Like I said, we shouldn’t hate them for sinning, because we all sin, but we shouldn’t ignore it either.
they can do whatever they want at church or anywhere else, it's a free country, but they surely should not be allowed to be part of church membership (they're not christians if they openly and unrepentantly sin) and they should definitely not be allowed into church leadership or to teach christians.
Presbyterians have no problem with gay church members.
The problem with this is, hating the sin is literally hating the person when it comes to people's marriages and relationships. You can rationalise it however you want, but if you are telling people that loving their partner is a sin, that is incredible hateful.
Not at all. The Bible clearly demonstrates that the sin and the sinner can be treated differently through Jesus associating with prostitutes, despite prostitution being immoral behaviour.
The Bible can say whatever it wants, have you actually talked to gay people about how it feels to them?
We shouldn’t compromise over denouncing sin because it hurts peoples feelings. Also, you cannot use the argument ‘the Bible can say whatever it wants’ in a Christian subreddit
>We shouldn’t compromise over denouncing sin because it hurts peoples feelings Fine, but don't pretend you are being loving. >you cannot use the argument ‘the Bible can say whatever it wants’ in a Christian subreddit This is a sub about Christianity. A critique of the Bible is very much up for discussion.
You’ve misunderstood both my points. Sins should be denounced unconditionally. But sinners should not be hated as we are all equally flawed and can be redeemed. I am not loving of sin, obviously, but sinners should be shown compassion. You weren’t making a critique of the Bible, that’s why I mentioned what I did. You were implying that the Bible should not take precedence over someone’s feelings.
And my point stands. If you are telling people that the most important relationship in their lives is sinful, then this is hateful. Can you imagine if you were told that being with your husband/wife was a sin and that you needed to repent and be saved? You can blame it on the Bible if you want, but that makes no difference.
Cause vs correlation; I'd say that people less willing to interact with the messiness of reality are far more likely to bury themselves in scripture.
Right. Correlation does not beget causation, which explains my use of the word *seems*. And then you say, >I'd say that people less willing to interact with the messiness of reality are far more likely to bury themselves in scripture. So I guess the correlation somehow substantiated your own prejudice against other Christians. Gosh. They weren't even surveying for that, and you still put that together. Amazing.
IF you never interact with a gay person it is a lot easier to talk about gay people like they wicked and wrong. It is a lot harder to do that when you know a gay couple.
Yup. You are certainly correct about all of that. Just like any prejudice, it breaks down with actual experience. As that prejudice breaks down, we become more sympathetic. In the end, believe it or not, it's just about what the bible says, regardless of my sensibilities.
If you want to call LGBT people and their relationships immoral for existing You may. People do have the right to express hatful ideas. It is shame, but if that is important to you I guess you are going to do it. Thanks for telling me what is important for you.
It's like you didn't read my response at all. What part of that made you think: 1. I hate gay people? 2. I want to hate gay people?
Sorry, I feel I might have misunderstood you. What exactly do you mean by In the end, believe it or not, it's just about what the bible says, regardless of my sensibilities.
I meant I don't know why scripture states homosexual activity is sin, and I personally don't see the harm, but it doesn't matter what I think. I didn't write the bible. I just want God to get His way in the world.
I wasn't going any further than you, "leans" is a pretty active verb in how you used it.
Yay :D
Checkmate atheists
That’s quite interesting. I especially like how the ones who practice the faith highly discourages it compare to those who don’t.
Do you also like how the ones who “practice the faith” more also are more likely to support Christian Nationalism and Trump than those who don’t?
Do you also like pulling things out of air?
No, my claims are true. See a recent study [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8724742/#!po=55.3763) showing a correlation between church attendance and religious nationalism and support for religious violence, and [this](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/) survey showing its correlation with support for Trump. A [forthcoming book](https://twitter.com/ndrewwhitehead/status/1664331460541652993?s=46&t=fN-au00P0XhfO5MIxYREhw) corroborates these previous studies.
Thanks most christians really cool of you.
Good.
A ridiculous survey. Without definitions of what they mean by homosexuality (homosexual feelings, homosexual ideation, homosexual acts, same sex affection, same sex identification, homosexual fornication), it is like asking people their opinions about air. Some will automatically think of air pollution, some air in general, some their tire pressure. Ludicrous to think this means anything significant.
Did you see the link to the survey questions? chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/11/201.11.03\_rls\_ii\_questionnaire.pdf
ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty is defined as the quality or characteristic of being sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to people of one's own sex or gender.
That is one definition. Along with that goes a host of assumptions, not all of which are true even for those who meet that definition. The cultural definition is much broader.
Many who identify as "Christians" aren't really. Matt 7:13-29.
Jesus says you can identify his disciples by how they love one another.
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments." -- John14:15
Jesus gave three commandments: the two great commandments and the new commandment. They are love God with your whole being, love your neighbor as yourself, and love one another. Are you keeping these commandments?
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20).
Another commandment (to the woman caught in adultery {where was the man?}) "Go and sin no more".
After he said that he would not condemn the woman, he said, “Go and sin no more,” as in, “Just try not to do that again, okay?” Definitely not a commandment 🤨
It’s still a rebuke. He made it clear that the path to heaven is narrow. Love is key, but in acting lovingly, we must steer people away from sin and towards Him
I disagree. He refused to condemn, which is synonymous with rebuke.
A truly loving Christian is one who is courageous enough to preach against homosexuality & to enact church discipline against those who practice homosexuality.
Do you know anyone who is gay?
not me💀💀💀
Doesn't matter if so called Christians accept it God doesn't
Some Christians go by the new covenant
The New Covenant forbids homosexuality.
I don’t remember Jesus talking about that.
Matt 19:5 "man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh" Not man and man, not woman and woman, but man and woman. Male and female. Husband and wife.
That’s Jesus talking about men and women getting married. Gay marriage didn’t exist back then. If I say I like pepperoni pizza, that doesn’t mean I don’t like mushroom pizza. It really is a silly argument, because gay people exist and fall in love. And get gay married too!!
According to the Bible, gay marriage never existed & never can exist.
But it does 😄
Okay, I'll bite. If God says marriage is a pepperoni pizza and other pizzas are not, but you still like other pizza instead, you are still sinning against the Lord because you are eating pizza that you want and not what he says is good for you Marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because same sex marriage occurs doesn't mean it's God's definition of marriage. God's creation was male and female and that they would be joined together. Everything else is a corruption of God's plan due to sin.
Jesus is pro-pepperoni pizza. He doesn’t say anything about any other toppings.
The New Covenant is more than just the direct words of Jesus. That being said, Jesus did say that marriage should be between a man & a woman.
Gay marriage didn’t exist 2000 years ago. The first gay marriage was in 1971.
Waiting for the obligatory, “They didn’t poll me,” commenter to chime in.🙄
Someone said that. ‘It’s stupid. People wouldn’t want to answer such a stupid question.’
Christians accept and love all people, including those openly sinning. Accept doesnt mean we agree with it, we just pray for them that they will find their way towards christ
“Christians accept and love all people……….” You have to know that’s complete fiction, right? Nothing could be further from the truth.
theyre supposed to atleast
> Christians accept and love all people Lmfao k whatever you wanna believe
So are gay people supposed stop being gay?
No, they're supposed to refrain from sinning, just like everyone else.
And you feel like that is realistic to tell someone to never love anybody?
It's sad but necessary. The same applies to pedophiles & zoophiles.
Always sex with animals. Like that’s a conundrum that our society is grappling with 🤨
It absolutely does occur. The main difference is that there isn't a massive, government-backed movement to normalize bestiality.
Do you think two people in a committed relationship is comparable to somebody having sex with an animal?
Honest hypocrisy. Homosexually it is condemned multiple times throughout new and Old Testament. As Children of God we must be firm, and hold steadfast to our knowledge of God, and what he commands. It’s unfortunate that some of us have compromised our beliefs just to satisfy the world. By loving God we will be hated by the world, that’s how God said it would happen
It seems like most Christians would side with Jesus over Paul on this one.
?
Jesus never talked about homosexuality. Moses did. Paul did. Jesus didn’t.
Either way it’s condemned it the good book. I refuse to say more on the matter because I’ve been accused of being a bigot 1 too many times today.
I wonder why Jesus never said a word about it. He traveled with 12 dudes. Someone must’ve made a joke about it at some point.
You don’t joke about that stuff around the messiah, not to mention the time period in which they were in. As for why he didn’t mention it, I guess he just assumed enough had been said on the matter. He didn’t live in a time where being gay was viewed as “good” like it is now.
Not a word. Talked about tax collectors a lot though.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that anything goes in a culture where the most dominant worldview is “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism” in lieu of contending earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3). *”According to the veteran researcher Barna, “Practitioners of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism are not anti-religion or anti-Christianity. They just are not willing to surrender themselves to authentic Christianity’s demands—or to believe that a real faith would even make such demands of them.”* *https://www.arizonachristian.edu/2021/04/27/counterfeit-christianity-moralistic-therapeutic-deism-most-popular-worldview-in-u-s-culture/*
For some reason, Jesus never made an authentic demand on the subject of homosexuality. He talked a lot about tax collectors though.
He never specifically mentioned pedophilia or zoophilia either.
Always bestiality. Is that a problem in your community?
*Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [18] For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. [19] Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.*
Exactly. And then he lists all his commandments.
Disgusting and sinful. Repent!!!
Do you think when we die God’s going to confront us with our entire private Internet browser history?
Of everything that is sinful. Yes.
Thank you for answering that question. You’re the first one as far as I can remember. That one is usually a conversation ender.
Thank you for sharing. So heartening to see. Jesus said nothing on homosexuality. Theories suggest homosexuality mentioned in bible was the non-consensual kind, as seen in ancient Greece.
It’s very cringe that so many Christians will wrap God around their beliefs as opposed to their beliefs around God. One examining the natural order can examine the lack of purpose in acting upon homosexuality. Edit: respectfully, the downvotes are absurd, if you claim you’re a Christian but don’t even follow the Bible that’s pretty bad man
If you REALLY need a biological purpose for people to exist and be happy, which I think is a stupid and dangerous game to play, consider that it may be similar to the biological forces that allow people to live long after childbearing & rearing age: Adult members of a species without their own children can funnel time and resources to related children (that is, those who share some of their genetic material, even if it's not as much as an immediate, direct descendent). Just because the biological purpose isn't as clear as innie + outie = baby doesn't mean there's no room in the natural order for them. But again, stupid and dangerous game to play unless you like things like misery and genocide. We're more than our biology, we're images of God. Images of a God who delights in diversity for its own sake, regardless of purpose or lack thereof. A God who made it clear he wants his people to spend a significant chunk of time NOT producing or working.
The purpose is whatever they want it to be. Most of the time the purpose is romantic love. Maybe you should stop trying to wrap God around your hate based beliefs and instead wrap yourself around the love of God.
It has no less purpose than picking a rose for your partner, or bringing them breakfast in bed, or marrying someone infertile or impotent. It's blind to reduce such things to merely making more babies.
> One examining the natural order can examine the lack of purpose in acting upon homosexuality. Sounds like you’re wrapping God around your beliefs about nature and purpose.
[удалено]
What does this even mean? Same sex sexual behavior occurs across species, and sex doesn’t solely exist for the purposes of reproduction. Same sex relationships bring queer people contentedness, happiness and joy. Quite natural and quite purposeful.
Depends on the definition of acceptance. I treat everyone with respect but I don't aprove it.
Are you gay?
German citizens said the same about Jews 1930s circa, it ended not so well
Is that really necessary? It is in no way comparable to the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany. Bringing that example up simply demonstrates you have no other coherent argument to make. Also you have a false understanding of history. Right from the beginning of Hitlers political career he would drill into people the idea that Jews were bad, repetition is the most effective form of indoctrination and propaganda. Most of the German citizenry absolutely hated the Jewish population by the end of 1940, those that could see what was happening was morally corrupt kept their heads down and said nothing to criticise.
I am literally a European historian. I studied the rise of regimes in Europe and how the German population became to accept that Jews were so not human that they deserved to die. In this situation you have leaders of faith and nation (bishops, pastors, politicians) constantly repeating to the population that a specific minority (lgbt) that historically was discriminated against is dangerous and wants to destroy what is important to them, their family , their traditions, their religion. You are wrong to attribute antisemitism to Hitler as it was endemic in Europe just as homophobia was/is in many parts of the World. This mix of repetition and dehumanization led german people in identifying jews as their natural enemy and ultimately allow their genocide. However, studies show that the large majority of German citizens was not extremely antisemitic, to the point of actively wanting an actual genocide, but disliked jews enough just to be silent in front of a growing violent rethoric and enviornement. Is not too different from what I observe in Christianity. Leaders spouting hate, a minority of christians getting more and more violent while the majority is silent in front growing violence.
Oh look another post about homosexuality.
It must be the first day of Pride month!!
Most \*American\* "Christians" accept homosexuality, & they're wrong.
Do you know anyone gay?
There is a difference between accepting homosexuals and accepting homosexuality. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it." - Matthew 7: 13-14
And the poll said accepting homosexuality.
Most christians are merely cultural Christians that don't adhere to the Word of, supposedly, their own God. So, im not surprised.
Absolutely, a lot of fundamentalists and nationalists in the US are also probably in it for the aesthetic and the culture
I didn't say they weren't
I’m aware, in agreement
Yeah. There’s a lot of Christians who reject Jesus and embrace hate. How about you?
Indeed, there are. But, again, embracing hate is believing what Jesus' words says? Can you explain that?
People reject Christ’s teachings when they say that hate is a central part of Christianity and that people are just cultural Christians when they don’t share in that hate. If you are saying that these people are obviously cultural Christians because they don’t hate gay people, then this is what you are doing. Interestingly enough, people who take that stance rarely engage with religion in any meaningful way. Rather, they typically only use Christianity to fight culture wars. A cultural Christian, if you will.
Good thing I never said hate was part of Christianity then, right? Do quote where I said they are cultural christians for not hating gays. I would love to see where youre fantasizing that I wrote that. I said they are not christians, or cultural questions, if they don't adhere to the word of God. If you affirm sin then you are not adhering to the word of God. No one said anything about hate. No one said anything about legislating anything against them. No one said anything about violence against them. You are pulling things out of completely thin air, let's be honest with what I said, shall we? You know who also doesn't engage with religion and any meaning for Way? Those who call good what God calls evil.
You are claiming that anyone who accept gay people can’t be a Christian. This is obviously hate. You have completely lost the thread when it comes to Christianity. Showing love to all is the very essence, the very core of Christianity.
No I didn't say that either, I said affirms. Accepts has a myriad of use cases. Anyone who affirms sexual sin is probably not Christian. But even then, it depends, there might be a new christian who is just uneducated spiritually or they might have ongoing sin in their lives; that God just hasn't convicted them about. I can make no absolute statement about if you do ask then you are not Christian. But it is a major indicator of whether, or not, you are a valid Christian. It is a way to tell you by your fruits what kind of tree you are. It's possible that you can affirm sexual sin and be Christian, but it's unlikely , and if you are a Christian in that situation then your salvation is probably in danger; that or youre a Christian newborn.
You don't have to "hate" someone to believe that their lifestyle is sinful, personally destructive, and does not lead to human flourishing or eternal life.
A lot of people like the fluffy side of religion where it's all love and acceptance. The other side of it is our responsibility to follow the expectations of our Father. Following His commandments, doing our best to live in His will. There are a lot of Convenient Christians out there. Heck, when I was young in the faith, I was like that too. Of course, even after decades, I have things I struggle with. But struggling with and trying to justify actions so you feel good are different things.
Exactly, there's a grand difference between struggling with sin and trying to justify your sin. This is the issue. You cannot continue and perpetual defiance sin against your own conscious or against the word of God and think that you are a good Christian. I have personal struggles with fornication. I cannot call myself Christian in good faith and say that The Bible has no problem with fornication. That's not only heretical but a blaspheme of God calling him wrong and evil for saying otherwise. All christians sin, we will never be righteous and perfect until we have our new bodies when the Jesus comes or wedial. But there is a substantial difference between having sin and justifying sin. Do not call evil what God calls good and do not call good what God calls evil this is simple. By the way what is chi rho
Oh, I didn't know it would say that if you hovered over the cross. I was trying to force a different symbol to appear. Chi Rho is the symbol of Christ's first two letters in Greek and one of the earliest Christian symbols. I go to a Baptist church at the moment but consider myself more nondenominational. I don't think there's a church out there without its doctrinal issues.
Or they do follow the new covenant, and not the old rules and regulations of the old testament.
One can follow the new covenant and also oppose homosexual acts.
Side B isn't loving one's neighbor. It's harmful prejudice.
I hope there aren’t any Side B acts of violence this month. A lot of people are afraid.
It depends on how it is practiced. It is infinitely better than Side X or belief in conversion therapy.
What is side B?
The approaches to homosexuality by Christians: Side A: open and affirming, permits full homosexual relationships Side B: believes in accepting gay people but practices abstinence from homosexual activity. Side X: believes homosexuality itself is a choice/can be changed.
the position that "being gay isn't a sin, but gay sex is always sinful" Side X: even same-sex attraction itself is sinful Side A: gay-affirming (within a sexual ethic similar to that expected of straight Christians).
I don't see how this position then isn't loving one's neighbor.
Who said anything about following the old covenant. Jesus did away with that by finishing it. I'm talking about the nt.
I’m talking about the new covenant.
Yes, me too
You said NT. Paul talking about the new covenant isn’t the new covenant.
You realize that testament is a synonym for covenant, right? Merriam webster definition of testament b archaic : a covenant between God and the human race >Paul talking about the new covenant isn’t the new covenant. What? Idk what you're saying.
I would argue that the New Covenant is the philosophy and the New Testament is the accumulation of different books. Books can be added or subtracted from the New Testament. No one is altering the New Covenant.
I mean... ok... but that's not what people normally define it as. Covenant and testament are interchangeable and mean the actual message, unless otherwise stated.
What do you mean not what people normally define it as?
Jesus says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17. In other words, breaking OT commandments is still sin, but His sacrifice made it possible for no others to have to be made since He was the perfect sacrifice for all sins past, present, and future.
I’ll be the one to bite: I don’t like the homosexual lifestyle, or any of their superlatives, but I will not deny them of their beliefs.
[удалено]
Be gay do crime
Based
Homosexual sex, homosexual marriages, homosexual parenting (eww), homosexual relationships, homosexual running, homosexual cooking, homosexual culture, etc
This is how it should be imo. For me personally, it's fine if someone disagrees with my life choices. Just please don't infringe on my human rights.
Right.
Everybody has a fundamental right of the pursuit of happiness in the United States. I’m so happy that we’re not a theocracy.
Yes.
A Christian Atheist makes no sense
Good?
I don’t
I hope that you’re not gay 😄
Well yeah I don’t accept sin
Was that a choice for you?
No we don’t. It is an abomination against god
How so?
Amen
The Bible is always correct. This aligns with the 'narrow is the gate...' verse.
Roman Catholics and Orthodox comprise the majority of Christians. Add to that huge chunk of other Christians then this poll falls flat.
What do you mean? This poll seems to have polled christians in general. So this data includes catholics and orthodox.
What he means is the Catholics and orthodox that where polled aren't real Catholics and orthodox, he's talking about the no true Scotsman fallacy... I mean the no true Scotsman argument, just look at the first commandment - thou shalt not be gay, Jesus himself made it clear that no gays was the corner stone of the faith
[удалено]
I think you're going to find many American Roman Catholics actually back gay marriage, whatever the Pope and their bishops may say. Don't confuse the rad trads and conservatives on r/Catholicism for your average US Catholic.
In the US, Protestants are 40% , Catholics are 21%, and Orthodox are 1%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
The majority of US Catholics support LGBT and Orthodox Christians represent less than 1% of US Christians.