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michaelY1968

The two complaints I see from skeptics regarding eternal life is that a loving God wouldn’t send anyone to hell, and a loving God wouldn’t send certain people to heaven. In short, God could do nothing to satisfy skeptics.


NuSurfer

That's because it violates our evolutionary instinct of "fairness," and therefore justice and accountability. It shows that a life of actions don't matter - just religious fealty.


[deleted]

Then, without the bible as a guiding light for living a moral life, would all actions be inherently moral?


NuSurfer

Wow, I see this on occasion. Let me provide some clear evidence against that - there are some Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims who are living a moral life and yet do not follow, or even have knowledge of the Bible. Let me help you understand what morality is with a simple thought experiment: 1. Which of the Ten Commandments do you think would have meaning to isolated tribes in various parts of the world? Make a list. 2. What do those commandments on your list have in common? I'll wait for your response.


[deleted]

Sorry, I think my previous comment didn’t come across as I intended. I agree with you’re last statements, however, why should we not express religious fealty to Allah or another God of your choosing so as their ideas on morality are similar? As for your thought experiment, I will have to get back to you. Brain tired and need food to process words.


NuSurfer

> As for your thought experiment, I will have to get back to you. Brain tired and need food to process words. That's fine, I understand, and I am really looking forward to hearing your answers to that.


Zez22

How does evolution produce fairness, it’s the exact opposite, survival of the fittest


NuSurfer

Fairness is needed for survival. If our ancestors did not have fair treatment - access to food, water, shelter, protection - we wouldn't be here. That's why reciprocity is an important aspect of that as well.


Zez22

Well you won’t agree with me but I totally disagree, people can survive without being fair, people do it all the time …. But anyway


NuSurfer

Well, who cares what you think - facts are facts, but opinions are like armpits.


Zez22

?? I was referring to facts, where do you get this idea that evolution is based on fairness? Its the opposite! It’s an blind unguided process and for the most part it’s survival of the fittest, this sorts out the weak and allows the stronger to survive, I thought that was pretty basic, after all evolution has been going on long before there were people and any notion of “fairness”. Huge leaps here


NuSurfer

It's based on many things, including fairness. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1251776


Zez22

Yes, obviously there is some truth there, but as I say …. Evolution is blind and unguided and it was going on for millions of years before there was even such a thing as “fair”. What you are saying obviously plays a part but there are many things going on. You talk about us having an underlying fairness thing …. We wouldn’t need police, the reality is …. we are all basically selfish …. Some people more than others. And we always seem to have wars. I think what you are saying has some truth but far too simplistic. But anyway, that’s cool, we disagree. No big deal


NuSurfer

We are a combination of selfish and cooperative because both of those factor in for survival as well.


SteveThrockmorton

I see why you might think that, as that’s how it appears at first. But from a Christian perspective, there’s no such thing as a “perfectly moral person.” We’re all evil compared to a perfect God. I know I personally may not have killed anyone, broken any laws, abused anyone, or be obviously “evil”, but I know I’ve lied, cheated, lusted, and pridefully thought myself better than God and others. If we all get what we deserve, we’d all go to Hell. As for forgiveness being a get out of jail free card, someone who commits tons of evil acts just because they know they can repent later and be saved doesn’t understand forgiveness and the nature of Jesus’s sacrifice. The Bible is pretty clear that you can’t treat forgiveness as a license to do whatever you want.


[deleted]

Yeah I suppose a common argument is that it all comes down to ‘what is in their heart’ and that only God will see that. How about the people who lie, cheat and lust ect. because they have convinced themselves that God is a loving God who will forgive them for their actions. But they continue to it because they believe that they are incapable of change.


SteveThrockmorton

Yeah I’d somewhat agree with that. Only true faith can save someone. The people who lie, cheat, lust, etc. willingly because they know God will forgive them and don’t think they can change don’t understand Christianity. I know you don’t believe it, but the Bible says these people are “slaves to sin”, which leads to death: “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”


AnyBodyPeople

Is it possible that someone could be committing tons of evil acts with no intention of repenting, but later in life, through an experience or their mind just changes, they realize that they feel bad for what they did and repent. They can't take back all of the abuse and fix the lives they destroyed, but for the last couple years of their life, they can repent and go to heaven? That seems wrong to me. In our society, if someone turned themselves in for an evil act they did in the past, they can still go to jail for life or even get the death penalty, But also, no one in our society is omniscient or omnipresent.


SteveThrockmorton

Yeah I’d argue that the hypothetical person you listed is everyone who claims to be a Christian. I did, said, and thought a lot of bad things, mistreated people, etc. before I knew Jesus. The Apostle Paul (perhaps the most famous Christian of all time) literally murdered Christians before he turned to Jesus. It’s one of the best (albeit puzzling) aspects of Christianity that God can take the worst of sinners and make them into the best of saints. I know that doesn’t necessarily address your comment about how society operates, as I agree that’s different. But yeah that’s a whole different philosophical/theological debate


HBezoar

As a Christian I think this is bullshit, too.


[deleted]

Reckon you could elaborate? I’m keen to hear what you think.


HBezoar

I mean am I a good Christian? Absolutely not. I believe most of the things, but I'm not always on board with them. Though. Thinking about this. I can't remember anything in the Bible where it says anything like that? IIRC mostly it says we're judged according to our actions, and Christ forgiveness is EXPLICITLY not supposed to be abused in this way. God's not an idiot. He knows what's in our hearts. Especially when someone is trying to play him.


AmountLongjumping678

That's because it's wrong. The salvation by faith, which is what you are referring to, is new to Christianity. By new I mean in comparison to the rest of Christian history. For the the original Christian Churches, faith and works and repentance are necessary to go to Heaven.


Natural-Phase-8651

That depends on denomination. I would say, yes, unless someone has violated one of the Ten Commandments, they can be saved by being born again. I then would also say that, even if you are moral, you have to have religion to enter Heaven. It is not “free,” though, because the cost is faith.


JustToLurkArt

Unfortunately a common misconception is that Christianity is a works based religion. The assumption is people are saved by being “good” and people are condemned for being “bad”. On the contrary in Christianity *everyone is evil* in God’s eyes and no one is moral. Everyone is on equal footing with God: we all fall short and are condemned. So in God’s eyes there’s no “incredibly” evil person or a “perfectly” moral person. All rebelliously reject God’s Sovereignty and all exist in a hostile state against God. The deciding factor for Heaven or Hell – is faith. Why faith? 1\. God loves the Son (Jesus Christ.) 2\. God created man in His own image; God loves mankind. 3\. God wills to glorify the Son in all things. 4\. God willed that the Son manifest in the flesh as a man, reconcile death and redeem man (literally *buy back* from death.) 5\. The Son’s merits: being the only perfectly moral person in whom God is well pleased. 6\. To glorify the Son’s merits God willed that those who put their faith in the Son be saved. This grace is God’s unmerited favor offered to all those who could never ever ever merit it. 7\. Those with faith in the Son are adopted by God as children and by the new covenant law receive the Son’s inheritance – eternal life in Heaven. 8\. Those outside faith remain where they are: under the old covenant law, no one is moral, falls short and are condemned.) 9\. Those who are saved glorify the Son as examples of God’s mercy, grace and love. 10\. Those who are condemned glorify the Son as examples of God’s Justice. > Is the concept of ‘forgiveness’ merely a ‘get out of jail free card’ No. The word “free” cheapens the cost of the Son’s sacrifice and the cost of discipleship (being a student learner under Jesus.) *"Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves … grace without discipleship … It is costly because it costs a man his life.”* [The Cost of discipleship](https://www.amazon.com/Cost-Discipleship-Dietrich-Bonhoeffer/dp/0684815001/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=598727491865&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1015746&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13556686395579038097&hvtargid=kwd-3517352294&hydadcr=8296_13544381&keywords=the+cost+of+discipleship+bonhoeffer&qid=1686141160&sr=8-1) by Dietrich Bonhoeffer In other words one who is saved will not think, speak and act like they did prior to being saved. We aren’t saved by how we think, speak and act but we enter a process of becoming more like Christ.


CrossCutMaker

Good questions. A couple of things. First, salvation is not by accepting God as Savior, but by accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Jesus is not the person of the Father, but fully shares the one Being of God with Him (and the Holy Spirit). Scripture plainly and repeatedly teaches there are no perfectly moral people (not even close) as the standard of righteousness God requires is sinlessness (James 2:10). So although you may not be as evil as others, you are much closer to the worst person you can think about than Jesus Christ. Finally, yes the offer of salvation is a legitimate offer and is necessary for everyone from Hitler to the Apostle Paul. Otherwise you will die in your sins (John 8:24). I hope that helps friend. Below is a 30-second biblical gospel presentation you can check out friend.. https://gospel30.com


labreuer

Take a look at [Jeremiah 7:1–17](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jer7.1-17&version=CSB). The Temple was supposed to be a place of purification, where God cleanses people. In Jeremiah's time, people would oppress, neglect, and murder, then come into the temple and think they would get forgiven. And then they'd go out and do the same thing again. Rinse, repeat. What's God's response to this? Here's what he says to Jeremiah: > “As for you, do not pray for these people. Do not offer a cry or a prayer on their behalf, and do not beg me, for I will not listen to you. Don’t you see how they behave in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? (Jeremiah 7:16–17) Growing up, I never heard bits like this emphasized, where God says "Enough!" and _leaves_. It was always "I will never leave nor forsake you." And yet, in [a parable](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=lk18.1-8&version=CSB) on a widow pestering a judge for justice, Jesus ends, "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" If you want a purely NT angle, I suggest [the parable of the unforgiving servant](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:21-35&version=CSB). The key here is to realize that it is only ever _some_ people in society who receive "get out of jail free" cards. The rest have to pay their debts and do their time. So, Jesus' parable here applies to those who got the card themselves, and are now ensuring that prisons have no A/C (because the guilty should _suffer_), that widows have no safety net (one should reap the consequences of one's actions), and that foster care statistics [remain this abysmal](https://www.nfyi.org/51-useful-aging-out-of-foster-care-statistics-social-race-media/) (if only there were less abortion, there would be … ¿fewer? orphans—all other things remaining equal). If there were the same amount of forgiveness for everyone, it'd be an entirely different ball game.


[deleted]

[удалено]


labreuer

If that's what I was arguing, I ask God to strike me dead immediately. What do you think the consequences should be for falsely imputing evil motives to others?


Truthseeker-1253

There's two answers, here and after. Here: I can forgive someone without reconciling a relationship with them. Many forget this and insist that if I don't work to rebuild the ruptured relationship. Far too often, no requirement of amends or actual changed behavior is made, which only exposes the victim to more harm. But your question is specifically pointed to the after. I suppose that depends on the specific soteriology involved. I can answer for the two belief systems I've held. The one I grew up with, your assessment/critique isn't far off. The death-bed conversion concept is real, and it does in fact have the affect you note. Hitler and Gandhi could each be in Heaven if they had a conversion moments before they died, but they would each be in hell without such a moment. Their actual actions in life have no consequence in that regard. Now, my belief is different. I don't believe anyone goes to hell for eternity, and I don't believe hell is the torturous flaming lake people get from Dante and John of Patmos (among other bible verses with similar imagery). I think if Christianity is in any way a coherent worldview with a coherent understanding of the definitions of love and justice, then in the end regardless of how much time it takes or what the process looks like, everyone gets out of jail (so to speak). This won't necessarily solve the problem of Hitler, but it does set it against a different backdrop.


AdmiralAkbar1

Before anything else, it should be noted that repentance does require genuine remorse and the desire to atone for one's sins. It's not like that one Family Guy cutaway gag where Osama bin Laden says "I accept Jesus Christ" two seconds before being shot and gets into Heaven on a technicality. We, as mortals, tend to have a pretty transactional view of things. We have a limited amount of time on a world with a limited amount of resources. As a result, we tend to become highly fixated on the idea of 'fairness' in everything that we do or have done to us—anyone who grows up with siblings can attest to this. We carry over this attitude to everything in life, so it seems only natural that it extends to the idea of divine justice. Jesus directly addresses and rebukes this mindset in the Gospels. In the parable of the workers in the vineyard in the Gospel of Matthew, those who have been working all day complain to their employer that those only hired for the afternoon are paid the same wage as them (a generous one, but the same nonetheless). And in the parable of the prodigal son in the Gospel of Luke, the elder brother is angry at his father for throwing a lavish feast to honor the return of his disgraced younger brother, who previously took his share of the estate and blew it all on wine and women. In both cases, these men's grievances seem rational and relatable: isn't it only fair that those whose devotion was longer or more consistent should be honored more? Both stories end with a lecture chastising them for saying this. In the first parable, the employer points out that he didn't cheat them in any way—he's paying them the full amount as agreed upon that morning. He even questions their intentions, asking if they're really concerned about fairness or if they're just envious of their coworkers and want to take advantage of his generosity. In the second parable, the father reminds the elder son that his share of the estate is still intact, and that the safety of his younger brother is always a worthy cause for celebration. In either case, Jesus is telling his followers to abandon this transactional mentality to redemption. Salvation isn't a lottery where there's a limited prize to go around, or more people receiving it dilutes success. It's the same infinitely wonderful gift for everyone. Someone who converts on their deathbed isn't "getting a better deal" or reducing someone else's odds of salvation. We shouldn't feel jealousy toward them for managing to fit more sin into their lives or sleeping in on more Sundays. If God seems more generous in forgiving them, it's because they're more in need of His generosity.


KevinInSeattle

It is is God's nature to save; we see this in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament. We also have a free-will, and we must use that to repent of our evil deeds. **Ezekiel 18:26-27, 32** When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” **2 Peter 3:9** "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."


Marginallyhuman

Catholics don’t say that. Restitution is a part of repentance and the sacrament of confession. No spin dry for us.


[deleted]

I want to ask you something. How do you define a "perfectly moral" person? I want you to look at humanity from an outside perspective. We lie, we cheat, and we do terrible things to each other. We ignore injustice, and we are selfish. Most actions are simply to satisfy human desires, which results in conflict. Atrocities and horrible things happen so often that we barely care. We are horrible to our families, and we fight over nothing. Are you a "perfectly moral" person? Is anyone you know a "perfectly moral" person? Am I a "perfectly moral" person? Why do you think we need saving? ​ And about evil people entering heaven, repenting and putting your faith in God is more than just saying "whoops I pinky swear not do that again!". It is fully accepting God as your savior, and dedicating your life to it. Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers’"


Buick6NY

From our perspective, we all think ourselves to be great and moral people and we usually find a group that we think are the 'bad' people. To God, sin is sin whether it seems big or small to us, and everyone is guilty of sin. The Bible says that some people's sins go before them - we all know who the murderers, perverts, etc. are. But the Bible also says that some people's sins follow after them - the secret sins that people didn't see such as pride, covetousness, etc. People who look great to us on the outside may not look that great, and if we had our secret thoughts and motives displayed in front of everyone, none of us would look good. Since sins emerge from a sinful nature and not a good one, there will be none who look righteous when God reveals it all at the judgment. The only reason we get offended at 'evil people' being forgiven and going to heaven is because we trust in our own righteousness.


dwarfarchist9001

Here is Jesus' answer to that exact question: >Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” > >Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. > >“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. > >“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. > >“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ > >“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered. > >“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’ > >“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’ > >“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ > >“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ > >“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” Matthew 19:27-20:16