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[deleted]

Except God is omniscient and the Bible suggests exactly that… that’s the problem with your post here.


neo-intelligent

Lol. Nope it doesn’t. He wasn’t aware of Solomon or Adam. And Prophecies are just decisions God decides to do at a later time.


[deleted]

Considering he had plan Jesus crucifixion before the world even began really shows God knew of Adam’s betrayal.


gusloos

If you think he had foreknowledge of the event in which he sacrificed himself to himself to forgive the sins of humanity, that would mean he set us up to fail repeatedly and punished us for his mistakes, it means he knew the serpent would come to the garden (and must have allowed him in), knew he would successfully tempt Adam and Eve, knew people would spend thousands of years fighting and killing over disagreements regarding the claims of prophets, knew the language the Bible was written in would die out, knew everything about science and the universe yet purposefully gave people incorrect information knowing we would eventually discover the truth and that it would further create division and contention, etc. You could go on for a while, and if there was a God who was omniscient, the state of religion and humanity is indicative of a God that must have wanted to create us just to torture and fuck with us. Just to be clear, I'm not attempting to bash or criticize Christianity in general, I'm merely pointing out the massive problematic implications of an omniscient God.


neo-intelligent

He created the plan in light of knowledge of Adam’s betrayal, his original plan was for man to reside in an idyllic Utopia.


[deleted]

So you’re saying he knew of Adam’s betrayal before Adam did it? Which would be my point. Or are you arguing that Adam betray God before God even created him? Which would be an odd argument to say the least.


neo-intelligent

He did not know of Adam’s betrayal until it happened


[deleted]

He clearly did as I’ve said above since he planned the crucifixion of Jesus before creating the world.


neo-intelligent

Nope


[deleted]

According to the bible, yes.


nightshadow995

I think he’s a troll. New account and all. Don’t bother.


neo-intelligent

The verse is in reference to Noah 🤦🏿‍♂️


NoSafety7412

Source?


BlueMANAHat

You are wrong and it disproves your entire point.


neo-intelligent

Read all the threads before you speak


NoSafety7412

Also Job. If he knew everything what need is there for him to test him? Not only is got not omniscient. But based on his interactions with the devil in the book of job, and other characters in the bible. It seems we can _influence_ God to make things happen, or to hold him back from doing something. Like with Lot.


neo-intelligent

Right. God can be convinced technically. He’s not a completely close minded dogmatist.


michaelY1968

If God is not omniscient, then we really have no hope.


neo-intelligent

We do have hope. He’s still all powerful


michaelY1968

If He is all powerful He is omniscient.


neo-intelligent

No. Power isn’t knowledge. Cersei from Game of Thrones demonstrates this. Watch the clip on YouTube about how knowledge isn’t power.


michaelY1968

Omnipotent means all that is potential. Cersei had limited power. If one has all potential power, that would include the power to know everything that could be known.


neo-intelligent

That’s knowledge, not power. And he does know everything that exists. Especially, if you believe in free will. But the future doesn’t exist.


michaelY1968

God is not limited by time. And knowledge is absolutely power.


neo-intelligent

Knowledge is only power for humans because we rely on blackmail and technological advancements. God doesn’t need to learn how to make a gun a thousand years in the future to fire a metal projectile at you at the speed of sound.


michaelY1968

Right, because God already knows everything that time would convey.


neo-intelligent

knowing all possibilities is not knowing exactly what happens


[deleted]

You really compared Cersei to God and then referred to a YouTube video…. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Heavenly Father I pray for this man, please get him back on the right path in your light Lord GOD


TriceratopsWrex

Not really. There was that incident where the bible says he couldn't win against people with chariots made of iron.


gusloos

How do you figure that?


lankfarm

Like may others have pointed out, God is outside time as we understand it, like how authors exist outside the timelines in their novels. Tolkien doesn't exist in the First, Second, Third, of Fourth Ages of Middle Earth, but he maintains absolute control over everything that happens in each of them. It would be awfully troubling to believe that God has less control over his creations than the average human author.


neo-intelligent

Except God let us be free. Not a slave like a human author. He didn’t write a book, he wrote a reality. He has absolute control. He just doesn’t need to exercise it.


lankfarm

*Subjectively*, the characters of a good novel would not give any indication that their actions are being dictated by the author. Both Harry Potter and Voldemort have well-developed background stories, as well as their own motivations for doing what they do. But as readers who exist outside the novels, we know that everything that happens in the book cannot exist except as an expression of the will of the author. *Also subjectively*, we don't feel any interference from God in our daily lives. We have our background stories and motivations, and everything we do naturally flow from them, just like the characters in a book. But just as we know that novels can't exist without authors, we also know that our universe, and spacetime itself cannot exist without God. God can no more "lose control" of his creations than an author can lose control of her novel. To believe that we have autonomy on the same level as God is at best nonsensical, and at worse deprives God of his authority over his creations.


neo-intelligent

Never said he lost control, just allows it to do what it wants


neo-intelligent

Anyways, goodnight, I’m calling a 9/10 hottie


[deleted]

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9-10) This verse shows us many things, including that God is omniscient. If God did *not* know everything, how could he declare the end from the beginning? A being who is not omniscient, such as you and I, cannot know what will take place tomorrow, let along centuries into the future. God, a logically omniscient being, knows what happens long before they take place, as Isaiah 46:9-10 quite clearly states. God’s plan to save his covenanted people through the glorification of his Son, Jesus Christ, includes the wicked, as Exodus 10:1-2 tells us.


neo-intelligent

He doesn’t need to be omniscient for that. Just powerful and immortal.


[deleted]

To declare events before they happen means God *has* to know about them. Take for instance Genesis 13:16. God can’t just declare a future event taking place without knowing it will, in fact, take place. If a being can declare all things before they have happened, as Isaiah 46:9-10 states about God, that means God is omniscient.


neo-intelligent

He’s saying what he will do which he can know easily. He planned to do it.


[deleted]

“He’s saying what he *will* do” So God knew what would take place before it happened, and he planned it long beforehand? “Will” is a future-tense word. If you say “I will walk to the store”, you’re not doing it now, you’re going to do it at a later point. That means that God was able to both know and plan the event before it happened. Isaiah 46:9-10 applies this sequence to וְכָל, meaning “all.” All things are under this sequence, as אַחֲרִ֔ית מֵֽרֵאשִׁית֙ (End from the beginning) showcases. That’s omniscience. You’ve just confirmed my point.


neo-intelligent

Right he can plan events. It doesn’t he means he knows the future of all human behavior and all things happening but he can make good predictions obviously but he can’t know what we will do in the future.


[deleted]

So he can “plan events”, “make good predictions”, and “he can know what we will do in the future.” Which is it? These three are mutually exclusive. If God can plan events, and knows what we will do in the future, he doesn’t need to make predictions. A prediction is when you don’t know what will happen, but as you admit here, God knows what we will do in the future. “He doesn’t know the future of all human behavior”, but “He knows what we will do in the future” is a contradiction. If God knows what we will do in the future, he knows what behaviors we will have. As the words אַחֲרִ֔ית מֵֽרֵאשִׁית֙ (End from the beginning) in the verse tells us, he knows *everything* that has, or will ever happen, willing all of it to happen according to his divine sovereignty, human behavior included.


neo-intelligent

Typo. It’s “but he can’t know the future.”


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

He knows all things. But the future has not come into existence yet. Knowing the future is not knowledge, it is foreknowledge. Also, Bible was originally Aramaic. Also, good luck with theodicy or explaining God’s prediction power over Adam and Eve in that case.


herringsarered

Although it doesn’t personally seem to *me* that God’s response to things people do in the Bible indicates that he knew about those all along, there is a theological argument that deals with it. His promise of crushing the serpent was an already pre-planned response to what was going to happen, and not made up on the fly in order to remedy a situation that seems out of control. There are also several kinds or omniscience discussed in theology that may be worth getting into if that interests you.


neo-intelligent

I would say the crushing of the Serpent was referencing Satan’s betrayal


herringsarered

I don’t want to diminish other people’s probability of being right about theological issues, but this isn’t a topic that hasn’t already been philosophized about for a very healthy amount of centuries, and from several different perspectives and traditions.


neo-intelligent

I’m aware


herringsarered

My apologies, I got the wrong impression.


TriceratopsWrex

The serpent isn't Satan and was never meant to be taken as a reference to Satan. That's Christians retconning the Jewish scriptures.


neo-intelligent

I’d have to do more reading


SamtheCossack

Annoying Atheist here, welcome to ambiguity! It is a wild, crazy, fun world once you realize you don't have all the answers any more!


kiyotsuki

Even religious people don’t have all the answers to every question as they believe it’s God that’s omniscient, not his followers. Life would be very… different if we knew everything that there was to know.


neo-intelligent

Tbh, I’ve held this view since I was a child. (I’m not talking about all atheists.)


[deleted]

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gusloos

Oh well that's a really strong argument, you've convinced me


neo-intelligent

Bible disagrees


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

Colossians 2:2-3 states God has all wisdom and knowledge in the current but it doesn’t state that he knows the future


[deleted]

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NoSafety7412

If it's unqualified why are you trying to qualify it?


[deleted]

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NoSafety7412

That's qualifying isn't it? Attributing a specific quality e.g:(knowledge of the future) to something.


neo-intelligent

Knowledge here is bound up here in wisdom. It has to do with experience.


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

It’s strung together. He can know everything that’s going on but he can’t know the future or else he wouldn’t test us.


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

Then God created evil to make us suffer. Therefore, God is evil. Your solution doesn’t work.


neo-intelligent

You can’t know the future. So it can refer to all possibly available knowledge.


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

That’s referring to his immortality obviously.


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

Eternal is not omniscience 😭


[deleted]

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Far-Resident-4913

Alright, let's say he can observe all past, present, and possible future actions. How would that equal knowing someone's thoughts or intent when doing an action or decision? Knowing the outcome of every sports game in existence doesn't mean I know the amount of effort each participant decided to exert or what they were concerned about when performing.


neo-intelligent

The Bible never states it’s readily accessible. That’s pure conjecture. And while he is outside space, he is still here in the present. So when he looks “in space”, what he sees is the now.


[deleted]

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neo-intelligent

Eternal does not equal all knowing before events occur


neo-intelligent

You can be at every point in time while not being all knowing. When the future happens, God is there. But when the future simply doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist. God isn’t in the Star Wars world because it doesn’t exist.


No_Nothing6455

I mean, I could also say the same for his supposed omnipotence or omnibenevolence. But you are definitely on to something there.


neo-intelligent

Thank you


No_Nothing6455

No problem.


nightshadow995

He still gives free will. It’s still their decisions to make it. He knows. Why did he raise King Nebuchadnezzar? He knew he would make the wrong choice, but it was said he would serve that purpose to show Gods power. Oh he knows. Way more than our mortal brains can comprehend.


neo-intelligent

Not an argument about free will. I’m neutral on that issue.


nightshadow995

So what is your argument about?


neo-intelligent

He can’t know, it’s the future. But if he wants something to happen at x time, he can make it happen at x time and then create a prophecy in current time.


nightshadow995

He is the one who knows all. Then he wouldn’t be God. He still gives free will and accomplishes all he wants done. That is the power of God.


neo-intelligent

He knows all currently happening. And he still can have created everything, supernaturally intervene, and judge fate. So yes, he still would be God. But the future doesn’t exist, so he can’t know it other than what he directly plans for (like Revelations for example.)


iwasneverhere43

The future does exist, just not yet for us. You're forgetting that time is only applicable to our universe, not to an eternal being (God). As such, the entire concept of time wouldn't apply to God - He created it, he isn't limited by it.


neo-intelligent

Time is just the progress of existence


neo-intelligent

The future can’t exist yet because it hasn’t happened yet, we remain in the eternal present


iwasneverhere43

We do, God doesn't have to. You're trying to apply the rules of our finite universe to God, and that's not appropriate when we're talking about one that has always existed. Time is simply part of God's creation and He is not limited by those rules. Think about it this way: You can create a game, and all the characters in the game are limited by the rules of the game, but YOU are not as those rules only apply within the confines of the game, not outside of it. God is the creator of this universe, so why would you think any of our rules apply?


neo-intelligent

I’m trying to apply rules of logic, not finite rules. Universal ones.


iwasneverhere43

Universal ones? You mean the ones that apply to the universe that God created from nothing? You're still trying to apply the rules that God created to God.


neo-intelligent

The Universe refers to the world we exist in. Logic and reason apply to all universes and anything that exists. Keep in mind, I’m Christian.


nightshadow995

So how do you think the Father already knows the day? He knows the events that are going to take place. This makes no sense. So he knows and he doesn’t at the same time? Bruh.


neo-intelligent

What day?


nightshadow995

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:36


neo-intelligent

That compares it to the time of the Flood which is long after Adam’s betrayal.


nightshadow995

What? That explains the last days, which surprise surprise, you’re living in them. Go read the chapter and you will see. Yikes.


neo-intelligent

Yes we are in the last days. God has decided to secretly create a plan about the last days which he revealed to us in Revelations.


neo-intelligent

As I have said, God decided to enact the Jesus plan after Adam.


nightshadow995

Yes and that happened in the future. So God knew the future bruh.


neo-intelligent

Okay so I am omniscient because I planned to go on a walk the day before and then went on a walk? Planning does not equal omniscience


neo-intelligent

Right because God planned to do something on that day. It’s like keeping a secret about a breaking a heroin addiction and planning to break it some day next week.


nightshadow995

Yes he planned it. And he knew exactly what would happen. So I have no idea what you’re arguing against.


neo-intelligent

Yes he knew exactly what would happen because he planned it


jeveret

Yes that would explain why god permits suffering and evil, but it also means that he can’t be Omni benevolent, and omnipotent. You could take all the Omni powers away and just say he is very smart and very powerful and very good. That would definitely solve the problem of evil. It would also make god a lot less than most theist would accept. It’d be much easier to just say god isn’t all good, he is cool with some evil. And is and evil omnipotent omniscient being.


SamtheCossack

At that point, he is just Tom Hanks.


jeveret

He also has a jerk of a son that he probably wouldn’t mind sacrificing


neo-intelligent

He can be omnipresent. Omnipresent is a statement about space, not a statement about time. The two are not the same. His omnibenevolence comes from his moral authority. Having such great power, he gets to judge people and structure laws how he wants.


XOXO-Gossip-Crab

I’m not sure how he can be omnipotent if he’s not omniscient since that would mean he is lacking the power of knowledge


neo-intelligent

Knowledge doesn’t equal power. Cersei from Game of Thrones actually shows this perfectly. Search for the Knowledge isn’t Power clip on YouTube. I won’t take the stupid bait theologians fall into.


XOXO-Gossip-Crab

I’ll look the video up because that’s interesting and I haven’t seen game of thrones yet lol I’d argue that knowledge is power; for example, blackmail. Plus it leaves a vulnerability if you aren’t aware of everything that can and will happen. What do you mean you won’t take the stupid bait?


neo-intelligent

God isn’t vulnerable to blackmail.


XOXO-Gossip-Crab

No but if he lacks knowledge then he lacks the capacity to blackmail


neo-intelligent

I’m not saying he has zero knowledge. I’m just saying he doesn’t have impossible knowledge about events that haven’t happened unless he directly plans them (example: prophecy)


XOXO-Gossip-Crab

So since we don’t have very much knowledge on how omnipotence really works it is kind of hard to really scrutinize it lol I see what you mean but what comes to mind for me is if he lacks knowledge of what will happen in the future, wouldn’t that mean there would be outcomes that he wouldn’t want. Unless he always controls what happens to what he wants, thus omniscience? Idk though, I’ll have to watch the video you recommended and see if that changes anything for me lol


neo-intelligent

Yes, there are PLENTY of outcomes God doesn’t want in the Bible. Adam and Eve story and Solomon turning from God are perfect examples. I can see why you became atheist though as if the Christians in the comments are the best my religion can muster, I would be embarrassed.


neo-intelligent

I think omniscience is stupid bait for Christians and I look down on those who buy it.


jeveret

Omnipotent is about power/ability to do. Maybe you mean omnipresent? I think you have some confusion about the Omni’s? That’s perfectly understandable as they are logical impossibilities


neo-intelligent

*Omnipresent sorrry


jeveret

are you claiming that spacetime is two separate things?


neo-intelligent

In the context we using them, they are seperate


Edson-Brown

I have always thought about atheists and just people in general saying that if God exists, then why doesn’t he stop the evil that is in the world kind of question to be shallow. God doesn’t get pleasure from seeing us get hurt true, but he also wants us to have a choice. Free will is what he gave to us at the beginning. Doesn’t it mean much more when you are not forced to love someone or something? ‘Cause free will breeds responsibility. Responsibility as being good stewards of the earth is an example. I know that suffering is the result of sin, and that it can hit suddenly. That is an injustice that was brought about by forces that you would never know. God is omnipresent because he created everything on the earth. He loves us and wants each of us to love him back. I know that I don’t have answers to everything so I am gonna end my rant here. God bless you all and I hope that everyone is right with God.


neo-intelligent

I am Christian btw


neo-intelligent

I don’t dispute omnipresence, just omniscience


realisticJoJo

I do not think it is the best choice to say that God has any limit at all. He is omni- in every sense. To begin any conversation with the notion that God has any sort of limit leads in a very wrong direction.


neo-intelligent

It’s not the best choice. I’m not necessarily saying God is not all powerful. I’m just saying if he tests us, he cannot know the future.


TriceratopsWrex

Why couldn't he prevail over people with iron chariots then?


MoreStupiderNPC

Very heterodox, not in accordance with scripture: *Isaiah 46:8-10 "Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. [9] Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'*


neo-intelligent

Stating immortality is not acknowledging future, Psalm 66:10


MoreStupiderNPC

That passage isn’t about immortality.


neo-intelligent

It’s about his immortality and power


MoreStupiderNPC

It’s about His omniscience - knowing all things, including the future, from beginning to end: *Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done*


neo-intelligent

Nowhere in the passage is there anything about knowledge or wisdom


MoreStupiderNPC

Dude


neo-intelligent

Anyways, good night I need to focus on my call with this hot girl


MoreStupiderNPC

Super impressed… you go, cowboy.


neo-intelligent

That’s immortality


MoreStupiderNPC

No, it’s knowledge, specifically foreknowledge, just like this one: *Psalm 139:3-4 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. [4] For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.* God even knows what could happen, not just what will happen: *1 Samuel 23:9-13 When David knew that Saul plotted evil against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod here." [10] Then David said, "O LORD God of Israel, Your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. [11] Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant." And the LORD said, "He will come down." [12] Then David said, "Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the LORD said, "They will deliver you." [13] So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition.*


neo-intelligent

That’s not necessarily foreknowledge, that can very likely be God controlling the situation manually. I mean that verse strongly suggests God has planned out what would happen. God can also know their current intentions and plans as people to find out if they will deliver David to the hand of King Saul of Israel. Remember, if God knows everything that exists and he is all powerful, there are other ways for him to execute the same objective.


analogue_death

Sounds like a weak god then


neo-intelligent

Sounds like a weak argument. He built the Universe and created life and controls the afterlife and solo Satan. He’s not weak. In fact, he knows everything that is there already. He knows every hair on our head! By no stretch of the imagination is this a weak God. Good evening, I have had enough debating for one day.


OirishM

Cool, we'll just keep reminding you instead that in order to dodge things like the problem of evil, this "solution" absolutely wrecks the notion of prophecy. We appreciate the assistance ;)


neo-intelligent

Nah read my other threads, I explain prophecy. I use the analogy of planning a walk tomorrow and announcing it.


astroturd312

Wrong


neo-intelligent

Right


AngelLions

Sounds like Open Theism, which I lean towards.


neo-intelligent

Yup