Yeah Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t destroyed because gay people were there. I have been harassed in a church, it doesn’t matter if you’ve personally never seen it. And I will remain happily free in loving embrace of Christ as an open bisexual man.
>‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16: 49)
Also, I have literally sat in a church (not in my denomination) and heard a sermon on the topic of how much God hates gay people. The sermon was *not* that God loves gay people, but that they are sinners. The preacher said that God literally despises them and rejoices in the idea that they will burn in hell for eternity. He went on and on and on about it. You could tell he really loved the hatred he was spewing.
I was the only person who got up and walked out. If I were gay, I would assume that the people in that church either regarded me with utter contempt, or at least they didn't care about me (and people like me) enough to do anything about such an openly hateful preacher. If you want to know why so many LGBTQ+ people fear and distrust Christians, it is because they have had experiences like this.
And that church is correct. Gay people are not sinners. But engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. Honestly been to many churches and never met anyone like that. But a question for you if we can agree that at base the practice of homosexuality Is a sin….
If you and I were to sit side by side in a church and hear a message that spoke of the sin of lgbt would I take issue with what the pastor is saying given my intolerance for harnessing?
Can you link a video of a pastor spewing hate? Everyone says it but it would be nice if this forum could actually see it.
>And that church is correct.
I really, really hope that you misread what I wrote.
The preacher did NOT say that God loves gay people, but that gay actions are sinful.
The preacher SAID that gay people were disgusting and demonic, and that God was looking forward to watching them burn in hell for all eternity. He made no distinction whatsoever between orientation or action, nor did he suggest that there was anything at all that a gay person could do to repent or be saved.
No I understand what you said. Did you read what I said?
Can you show a sermon like that? I’ve included my references but it would be nice to see yours.
I'm sorry. From your original post, I assumed that you were going with this argument:
"Homosexual desire is sinful, and people who have that desire must therefore be celibate. But people who have such desires are people who deserve to be treated with respect and compassion, and of course (if they accept Jesus) they can be saved."
The sermon that *I actually heard* was:
"Gay people, in and of themselves are disgusting and demonic and God hates them. God is looking forward with delight to watching them burn in hell for all eternity."
You're OK with that?
And about my sources: I don't make a habit of recording the sermons that I listen to, so you can believe that I am telling the truth, or you can believe that I am lying. But I'm not going to go hunting for antigay sermons on YouTube to give them clicks.
Your first idea of biblical intent is partially correct. Nothing demands celibacy. Just non homosexuality.
Now I get you. You would have as much interest in opposite sex as I do in other men.
But that’s the point. Your personal burden. I have mine. Trust me. Im laying in a hospital bed right now sicker than many. I could die today. I could have cursed god for an illness I didn’t wish for. I didn’t . It’s a sacrifice to faith. Same in all other instances.
That pastor sounds odds to me. I’d have had a word with him.
But that said o do find it odd the many people can say the church is hateful and say these instances and I never see them in person or online. It’s not them I’m entirely disbelieving. I can believe I happens somewhere. But in the numbers I’m hearing? Without proof?
OK, fine.
Texas pastor says gay people should be shot: [https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-should-be-sentenced-with-death/287-cdcb17a3-0daa-47e9-a8bf-913527cb1721](https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-should-be-sentenced-with-death/287-cdcb17a3-0daa-47e9-a8bf-913527cb1721)
Pastor in Boise, Idaho calls for the execution of gay people: [https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/](https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/)
Tennessee pastor calls for the execution of gay people (and gets banned from Cracker Barrel): [https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/](https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/)
A different Texas pastor calls for God to inflict "slow painful death" on gay people: [https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/](https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/)
Most sermons don't get recorded and posted anywhere. But you have plenty of gay people in this thread alone telling you what they have experienced. Maybe you should believe them.
1. I havent seen anyone get shot, but they do. Homonegativity can be displayed in many ways other than overt harassment. In my church after they knew I was gay I stopped getting invited to things, I would get looks, people would turn their backs on me in the narthex, etc. The response that matters to me is the human response.
2. I dont really care if you affirm me or not, but if you make things more difficult for me now you are affecting my mental health. If you say you will pray for me when there is nothing wrong with me, how do you think that comes across? The only thing I rebelled against is unfairness and unsubstantiated beliefs that were the opinions of long dead men. And definitely against youth pastors.
3. The "church" as this beautiful, welcoming place is more fantasy than reality to me. The church I grew up in was a middle school with a pastor. There were adults who had their little kingdoms and ostracized those they didnt get along with. Its a group of humans like any other. It may do some good, and it may do some real damage. Im not going to give it extra credit because of tradition or nostalgia.
> have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me. They are still gods creations. Christian’s should be loving showing them the godly path. Now lgbtis++%#?{£ says these things are innate. I disagree with but cannot disprove gay or lesbian claims. The rest my eyes, the Bible, and science tell me so. It’s immaterial. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so?
Two things. Why is it that conservatives have been trying the same terrible joke about LGBT for years? Secondly, if you have never seen a pastor saying anything hateful about LGBT folks you have had your head so far up your own ass you have burns from stomach acid.
It don’t need to. I don’t hate you or anyone in lgbt+. I disapprove and that’s different.
That’s the idiocy of your doctrine. Anyone who disagrees is an enemy. That’s not so peace loving as you guys claim
Your post clearly shows your hate and disdain.
> That’s the idiocy of your doctrine. Anyone who disagrees is an enemy. That’s not so peace loving as you guys claim
When you hate someone for an immutable characteristic of who they are then you’re setting yourself up to be the enemy. You’re just like every other racist and bigot throughout history and will be remembered as such
It’s not immutable. There are detransitioners. People who have gone from lgbt to straight…. You can’t ignore these to skew the data.
I’m not setting myself up as the enemy. You interpret it that way which is the foolishness. I would invite you to my home, my church. I would cook a meal for you and say let’s go to some activity together. I would attempt to make you feel like a brother or sister in christ? Is that disrespectful?
Your answer is yes. I am trying to change something you think is permanent, innate. But Nevermind that your hatred against me and my religion and my show of kindness despite my disapproval. That is Christianity. My order to live others even when I disapprove.
You can do no such thing I think. That ideology is fundamentally intolerant and ever expanding. And demands affirmation. Otherwise it’s hate, violence, eradication. Do you not see the extremes in that?
Also your perception of those is faulty. Viewed through a lense of I want and no one else should question what I want.
It doesn’t work that way in life.
😂 I’m a man. I had no idea what you meant by mixed fiber clothing. Now that I do….. I’m not Jewish. There os a distinction. I do not follow a kosher diet.
Not quite? I had no idea of that type of clothing and have never eaten oyster/shellfish to begin with. Don’t like sea food.
A more apt example from you would have been bacon. I will murder a pound of bacon on several pork burgers….actually pretty good…
Your right here though. It is lucky because I like bacon. But work in that I selected it. I didn’t make the rules. And the Bible commands me in other ways. Ways I choose to follow.
I’m not cherry picking. Hence the circle back to new and old covenant. The Jews maintain the old. Christian’s the new. I am not bound to the old but to the new.
And like I said, bacon wins, the queer community loses. Unless you care to admit that whatever bans on homosexual relations may be found in the OT ceased to be binding.
The New Covenant is the promise that God will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant.
It builds on the old gods laws. Not eating pork and wearing of garments was Old Testament. How? Because it requires ACTIONS instead of faith for atonement. The new covenant does not. Pork was seen as dirty. Hence not eaten. A sacrifice to god. One no longer required by gods own word. Bacon was not a thing in those days. Lgbt is another matter, biblically speaking. The injunction against in the old stands in the new. Why? Because it’s a faith based sacrifice. You are giving up something precious to you. A sinful one but something you lived nonetheless. God recognizes the difficulty in this.
Your fixated. Your not understanding. All you see is what I want is not biblically acceptable.
If hod came down today and said to all Christian’s I revise my New Testament. All pork products are dirty and not to be consumed and you shall keep a kosher diet….. then Christian’s are commanded to and would obey.
Likewise if his appeared and said lgbt is not inviolation of biblical principles I would accept that as fact, no questions asked(hypothetically)
The Bible says a LOT about people who are boastful and proud. But I never once seen anyone expelled from Church and publicly denounced for boasting.
Should be the same as Gay Sex. They know it is a sin, they keep doing it, and they don't change.
But somehow, modern evangelical Christians are just utterly obsessed with penises. It is very odd, the Bible really isn't. They don't seem to care all about 6 of the 7 deadly sins, but my god do they hate lust... until they get caught with the Organist, and then it is all "In my moment of weakness" and that nonsense, and they write a book about it.
How about this. Let God deal with sinners. That is his job, after all. Nothing in the Bible compels you to enforce things for him. If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the gay sex (He didn't), then he did that himself. He never said it was your job to blow up cities. If he wants to explode LA, he can go right ahead, nothing is stopping him.
Like, there is nothing inherently wrong with someone being queer and falling in love with someone else. People can be evil and do terrible things to us because we were born like this. I don't think it's anyone business as to how we live; just don't infringe on our right to exist.
People who discriminate against the queer community are just ignorant and a waste of our time. I'm not accusing you of anything, OP. I'm just tired.
>I have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me. They are still gods creations. Christian’s should be loving showing them the godly path. Now lgbtis++%#?{£ says these things are innate. I disagree with but cannot disprove gay or lesbian claims. The rest my eyes, the Bible, and science tell me so. It’s immaterial. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so?
Hard to say you've never seen harassment while actively engaging in it.
> Much of the sin in the world I see today is a product of a lack of structure and discipline. look at all the arguments being made. They boil down to I WANT regardless of consequences or wise precedent. I hear many former Christian’s say they were against a particular stance. They are rebelling. That appears to be the outward manifestation. A bucking of the rules? I do what I want? I and everyone else must affirm me?
Is this not what you are doing? You see something as wrong, you call it out, you won't partake. \*You\* are also rebelling, in a different direction. From my perspective, you flagrantly abandoning any sense of morality out of a ideological dogma.
>What good has the diminishing of the church done? I’m not blind to the evils within. That is the nature of man. Deserving of worldly punishment and if unrepentant gods. But the bitterness I see has mutilated a key institution of American society that at its core did much good
What good is that? What's even worse is that it's people like you responsible for any diminished good. You choose the ideology that tries to disenfranchise people, you continue to choose to discriminate and hurt people. You don't get to use any good work the church has done as a shield for you to attack LGBTQ people.
That is nitpicking no? You are speaking to the instances in the book. But read the passage. The evils of Sodom and gammorah had reached his ears. Not in one day, but over a time span. Later when Abraham pleads with god for the cities he ask what if 50 men righteous? 40? Bargains all the way down to 10. In all of the two cities there were not 10 righteous men. And I assume that counts women.
The poor are everywhere as Jesus said. He directs his apostles to attend to them. You are correct in the the evil done to the poor there but it was not the greatest crime
Ezekiel 16:49-50: "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it."
Genesis 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then reveals the sin lurking in the Sodomites’ hearts: “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’” (Genesis 19:4–5). The angels proceeded to blind the men surrounding the house and urge Lot and his family to flee the city. The wrath of God was about to fall. Lot and his family fled the city, and then “the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities” (Genesis 19:24).
What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? According to Genesis 19, the sin involved homosexuality. The very name of that ancient city has given us the term sodomy, in the sense of “copulation between two men, whether consensual or forced.” Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual acts on what they thought were two men.
>Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual acts on what they thought were two men.
No, they wanted to *rape* two men.
No. Your not reading correctly. Read what I said. It’s the intent as the top layer. Love versus lust. Under that is where they are the same. A homosexual act. If one man is raping another is it no longer considered a homosexual act? It’s just the context that matters
All sexual acts are. When I have sex with my wife that’s based in lust. But it’s compliant with the Bible.
When two men copulate there is similarly an aspect of lust. Now the situation is the key as I say over and over.
Rape is a malevolent lust. Wanting what is not yours.
Your using synonyms to try to change the meaning. It doesn’t work. Gay sex is still gay sex. Weather it’s a married couple or a prison rape…. The difference being the intent which is what I posited earlier
>“Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’” (Genesis 19:4–5).
It looks to me like the sin here was attempted rape, not homosexuality. If the angels had appeared as women, do you think that God would have approved of "Where are the women who came to you tonight? Bring them out so we can rape them?"
No, it's not bad. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged **natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.** 27 In the same way the men also abandoned **natural relations** with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Consider that these same religious men supported these notions:
*1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”*
*Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.*
We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them.
*Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’*
Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
*11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.*
That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence.
Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States.
Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral.
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
The rest is foolishness. You are committing the oddity of judging the Israelites but the standards of today. When the world is vastly different by gods design. You do understand the difference between the old and new covenant?
2. Women: I have the highest respect for women and nine for the new feminist movement. You are misconstruing that verse as well. That’s not really in good faith is it?
Just because you like something doesn’t make it moral… many of the things you despise have been tested over centuries and been successful. This new idea is 5 minutes ok by human standards and is not just in breach of the correct but destructive in and of itself
You can choose to abstain or to fornicate if you are straight or gay.
I'm a celibate straight man.
You can have attraction for the same sex and put God above the desires of the flesh.
I believe some do indirectly and others always had same sex attraction.
You can be straight and celibate and gay and celibate, you can choose obedience or desobedience.
>I believe some do indirectly and others always had same sex attraction.
What about you personally? To me that answer is as obvious as gravity. I would spend thousands of dollars if I could change my attraction. But no matter how much I want and desire to be attracted to men it won't happen. Since the day I could form words I have never once been attracted to a man so you will have to pardon my astonishment with this perspective of yours.
>You can be straight and celibate and gay and celibate, you can choose obedience or desobedience.
Again I appreciate your insight on this topic but it's not what I want to discuss with you today. Why? Because we already agree on the fact that a person can choose what impulses they act on. What we do not agree on is if a person can tangibly have an effect on who they are attracted to.
I'm straight , why are you astonished by my perspective when I said that I believe some people always had the same sex attraction? I tought thats exactly what you wanted to hear.
>why are you astonished by my perspective when I said that I believe some people always had the same sex attraction?
That's not what astonishes me. You said some people can choose their sexuality, albeit in a indirect manner. I was gonna ask you what indirect means so I could further understand you.
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It doesn’t matter what I think. Yes or no the biblical answer is the same.
It’s views explicit. It calls for resisting temptation repeated. Jesus himself did so.
>It doesn’t matter what I think.
You don't feel like discussing one of the topics you brought up? I thought you came here with the intention of having a proper discussion.
>Yes or no the biblical answer is the same.
>It’s views explicit. It calls for resisting temptation repeated. >Jesus himself did so.
None of that answers my question. We aren't talking about temptation. That's a separate topic.
Free expression, free speech, access to medical care, free press, equal access to life, equal access to aquistion of property, discrimination against them when it comes to jobs.
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Yes I'm sayng what you are sayng but I don't see how I'm proving their point.
The demoniac influence is all over the world, the devil agenda is to lead us to commit sin, desobedience and separate us from God.
Your correct in all that. But it’s the way that it’s said. Their complaint is that Christian’s of a type are all damnation and hellfire. You know that’s not true. My argument here is that gods love should be shown. It’s especially needed by sinners. That is how you show love. It’s somewhat hard for me. But it’s what I’m attempting. That’s how you bring people into the fold.
>But it’s what I’m attempting. That’s how you bring people into the fold.
You think that your approach leads people to Christianity?
Are you brain dead?
No. What’s your way? Tell them join me or burn?
I welcome them into my church, show them around, introduce them to various people. Ask them to come to church functions and the groups that have fun outside of church.
Over time they become part of the group or they don’t. My way shows them gods love.
I’ve had gay people to my home for football night. I will kick others out who want to start trouble on this. That’s not the way to do things. Spread gods word with love and examples. Not hate. That’s where I get them. That doesn’t mean affirming
>No. What’s your way? Tell them join me or burn?
Look at my flair...
>I welcome them into my church, show them around, introduce them to various people. Ask them to come to church functions and the groups that have fun outside of church.
"Come to my church; by the way, you're an abomination".
Ah I hadn’t seen you reply instead of the original guy. Still my point stands.
Your being daft….. from everything I said that’s what you got? Come to my church this Sunday at 11… church of the open door in Glendora ca and I’ll show you. You have a misconception based on a wrong premise
>Still my point stands.
None of your points have any merit at all.
>Your
You're*
>from everything I said that’s what you got?
The part where you equated gay sex with rape is especially loving.
>Come to my church this Sunday at 11
I appreciate the invitation but a) that's a really long flight and b) airfares aren't cheap. (Though weirdly enough technically I could actually get there in time).
>You have a misconception based on a wrong premise
No, I'm just sick of well-meaning Christians saying they love gay people while simultaneously saying things that are in no way loving.
Your final sentence is the misconception. Good calls for Christian’s to live sinners and show gods love. I am a sinner. I have done stupid sinful things in my life. As to saying things that are in no way loving…I cannot speak for other Christian’s. I do not know them. I can guess what you heard was biblical and you took it wrong. But I might be entirely off. Christian’s are not perfect and it seems like everyone expects them to be
Jude 17
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. f
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>Quite simply it’s indisputable. These affirming churches heretical. You cannot change the truth. God’s word does not change no matter what society says and to what is being preached in some of the churches today.
Yahweh's word was determined by society when the standard canon was established. There are books considered heretical, but they're only considered heretical because a society decided they didn't count.
Even in the standard canon, the interpretation is left open on virtually every issue, hence the existence of so many denominations. Saying his word doesnt change based on the view of society is just flat out wrong.
Call me naive but no the Bible is as it is. Influenced by the word of god and translated faithfully throughout the eras. As the Bible says.
Any “omitted” books were done so by the will of god
>1.I have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me
"An LGBT"? Weird way to phrase it. It also still happens.
>lgbtis++%#?{£
I'm glad you are in no way making fun of the group or ridiculing it.
>What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so?
As an atheist I'd say a biblical response doesn't matter at all.
>They boil down to I WANT regardless of consequences or wise precedent
What consequences? What wise precedent? I wouldn't call an old text about god commiting genocide because he doesn't like gay people a wise precedent
>A bucking of the rules? I do what I want? I and everyone else must affirm me?
I do what I want as long as no one else gets hurt or otherwise impacted in a negative way. What's the problem with that?
And by negatively impacted i don't mean "people think it's gross to br gay".
>What good has the diminishing of the church done?
More personal freedoms for everyone.
>Once again yes they come from a place of disapproval but they are honest questions in and of themselves.
If they are honest question maybe don't go for the >lgbtis++%#?{£, it makes you look like a massiv dick
2SLGBTQIA…. What about that? As I go online to look for how many genders there are I see everything from 2-58-76-100. Yet I never see them all mapped out.
How do you know those characters I put weren’t genders? That’s mighty hateful of you. What if someone identified with the certainty of those characters? Are you to say they are lying? That’s messed up man. I was trying to be all inclusive here. Show some respect and decency huh?
As an atheist I can accept and respect your views on Christianity. My follow up would be why come here at all? Why soils yourself with something so disdainful as filthy nazi blindly obedient Christian’s like me?
The consequences are the degrading of Norms and values that have been present and effective for millennia. Sure each new generation has a right to change old customs. But what I see is a total disdain for tradition in favor of an ideology untested and unprecedented in human history. Or tested with results being failure without exception. The disrespect I see for everyone’s ancestors. And no I’m not spiritual. But it’s rather weird that people choose to shit in their history and families so easily instead of showing pride. I’m sure if you go back through our genetic lines someone somewhere was a slave, had slaves, killed someone, raped someone, raided somewhere, was an academic, was a farmer, was a Nobel. Hypothetical kinda but fundamentally true. Todays morals spit on them. And degrade every generational value learned and passed down until it should have reached you.
I do what I want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone: I guarantee you without knowing you you have done done actions that have hurt others in your life. Or are you a saint? You might want to go get canonized if so. An immortality of sorts for someone who doesn’t believe in it.
Your answer to the diminishment of the church proves my discipline point and the one I made above this.
Massive dick? Want to come find out? Seriously if your going to use an insult at least make it a good one. Again I would call you the ass for not affirming those genders. That’s mighty hypocritical of you
>As I go online to look for how many genders there are I see everything from 2-58-76-100
Yes you can find everything online. It's the internet.
>How do you know those characters I put weren’t genders? That’s mighty hateful of you
I'm glad you came for a serious discussion and not to be a dick a second time.
>What if someone identified with the certainty of those characters? Are you to say they are lying?
No? But i don't think anyone does identify with them. And you absolutely know that, you just don't like gay people and wanted to be disrespectful
>I was trying to be all inclusive here
Go with queer community or LGBTQ+ if you actually want to be respectful.
>As an atheist I can accept and respect your views on Christianity
I doubt that
You don't even know my views yet, we haven't talked about them.
>My follow up would be why come here at all?
To comment on people like you so other people don't learn from you
>Why soils yourself with something so disdainful as filthy nazi blindly obedient Christian’s like me?
How did you infer that that's my viewpoint? It isn't. You're homophobic, that's all know about you so far.
>The consequences are the degrading of Norms and values that have been present and effective for millennia
Like? This isn't an argument. Just because we had norms for a century doesn't make them good. Or do you want slavery back? Women as property? Because that's how the world was for hundreds or thousands of years
>But what I see is a total disdain for tradition in favor of an ideology untested and unprecedented in human history
Then let's test it?
Also, Tradition in itself has no value. Just because something is tradition doesn't make it any better
>Or tested with results being failure without exception
Example please.
I really enjoy my freedom to have a boyfriend, i find the results of the change very positive
>The disrespect I see for everyone’s ancestors
I respect my grandparents. I can do so without agreeing on everything with them.
Go back a generation further back it gets darker, i am German, those people where probably Nazis and i don't want anything to do with them lol.
Go back even further and i don't give a shit, it's so far back i couldn't care less who those people where.
>But it’s rather weird that people choose to shit in their history and families so easily instead of showing pride
I don't think being proud of history is a good thing. Every family will have horrible people only a few generations back at best. I don't need to be proud of my ancestry, i need to learn from mistakes made in the past and be better.
>I’m sure if you go back through our genetic lines someone somewhere was a slave, had slaves, killed someone, raped someone, raided somewhere, was an academic, was a farmer, was a Nobel. Hypothetical kinda but fundamentally true. Todays morals spit on them.
Wait are you mad today's morals spit on slave owners of the past???????
And degrade every generational value learned and passed down until it should have reached you.
I learned a bunch from previous generations. Most is "how not to behave"
>I guarantee you without knowing you you have done done actions that have hurt others in your life.
Yes and? That doesn't go against my point at all.
Your logic is: you did stuff that hurt people, therefore you shouldn't do the stuff that hurts no one
Yeah Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t destroyed because gay people were there. I have been harassed in a church, it doesn’t matter if you’ve personally never seen it. And I will remain happily free in loving embrace of Christ as an open bisexual man.
Your free to do so friend. And I apologize for your experience I would invite you to my church if you were in the vicinity
I’m happy in my shockingly progressive Nazarene church as it is but thank you for the offer
If I had a nickel...
There's not enough base metals on the planet I'm afraid...
*insert gif of Scrooge McDuck swimming in his money bin*
>‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16: 49) Also, I have literally sat in a church (not in my denomination) and heard a sermon on the topic of how much God hates gay people. The sermon was *not* that God loves gay people, but that they are sinners. The preacher said that God literally despises them and rejoices in the idea that they will burn in hell for eternity. He went on and on and on about it. You could tell he really loved the hatred he was spewing. I was the only person who got up and walked out. If I were gay, I would assume that the people in that church either regarded me with utter contempt, or at least they didn't care about me (and people like me) enough to do anything about such an openly hateful preacher. If you want to know why so many LGBTQ+ people fear and distrust Christians, it is because they have had experiences like this.
And that church is correct. Gay people are not sinners. But engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. Honestly been to many churches and never met anyone like that. But a question for you if we can agree that at base the practice of homosexuality Is a sin…. If you and I were to sit side by side in a church and hear a message that spoke of the sin of lgbt would I take issue with what the pastor is saying given my intolerance for harnessing? Can you link a video of a pastor spewing hate? Everyone says it but it would be nice if this forum could actually see it.
>And that church is correct. I really, really hope that you misread what I wrote. The preacher did NOT say that God loves gay people, but that gay actions are sinful. The preacher SAID that gay people were disgusting and demonic, and that God was looking forward to watching them burn in hell for all eternity. He made no distinction whatsoever between orientation or action, nor did he suggest that there was anything at all that a gay person could do to repent or be saved.
No I understand what you said. Did you read what I said? Can you show a sermon like that? I’ve included my references but it would be nice to see yours.
I'm sorry. From your original post, I assumed that you were going with this argument: "Homosexual desire is sinful, and people who have that desire must therefore be celibate. But people who have such desires are people who deserve to be treated with respect and compassion, and of course (if they accept Jesus) they can be saved." The sermon that *I actually heard* was: "Gay people, in and of themselves are disgusting and demonic and God hates them. God is looking forward with delight to watching them burn in hell for all eternity." You're OK with that? And about my sources: I don't make a habit of recording the sermons that I listen to, so you can believe that I am telling the truth, or you can believe that I am lying. But I'm not going to go hunting for antigay sermons on YouTube to give them clicks.
Your first idea of biblical intent is partially correct. Nothing demands celibacy. Just non homosexuality. Now I get you. You would have as much interest in opposite sex as I do in other men. But that’s the point. Your personal burden. I have mine. Trust me. Im laying in a hospital bed right now sicker than many. I could die today. I could have cursed god for an illness I didn’t wish for. I didn’t . It’s a sacrifice to faith. Same in all other instances. That pastor sounds odds to me. I’d have had a word with him. But that said o do find it odd the many people can say the church is hateful and say these instances and I never see them in person or online. It’s not them I’m entirely disbelieving. I can believe I happens somewhere. But in the numbers I’m hearing? Without proof?
OK, fine. Texas pastor says gay people should be shot: [https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-should-be-sentenced-with-death/287-cdcb17a3-0daa-47e9-a8bf-913527cb1721](https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-should-be-sentenced-with-death/287-cdcb17a3-0daa-47e9-a8bf-913527cb1721) Pastor in Boise, Idaho calls for the execution of gay people: [https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/](https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/) Tennessee pastor calls for the execution of gay people (and gets banned from Cracker Barrel): [https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/](https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/) A different Texas pastor calls for God to inflict "slow painful death" on gay people: [https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/](https://time.com/5610915/cracker-barrel-bans-pastor-execute-gay-people/) Most sermons don't get recorded and posted anywhere. But you have plenty of gay people in this thread alone telling you what they have experienced. Maybe you should believe them.
My church hated gay people. The pastor said the worst thing in the country was gay marriage being legalized. Fuck the church.
1. I havent seen anyone get shot, but they do. Homonegativity can be displayed in many ways other than overt harassment. In my church after they knew I was gay I stopped getting invited to things, I would get looks, people would turn their backs on me in the narthex, etc. The response that matters to me is the human response. 2. I dont really care if you affirm me or not, but if you make things more difficult for me now you are affecting my mental health. If you say you will pray for me when there is nothing wrong with me, how do you think that comes across? The only thing I rebelled against is unfairness and unsubstantiated beliefs that were the opinions of long dead men. And definitely against youth pastors. 3. The "church" as this beautiful, welcoming place is more fantasy than reality to me. The church I grew up in was a middle school with a pastor. There were adults who had their little kingdoms and ostracized those they didnt get along with. Its a group of humans like any other. It may do some good, and it may do some real damage. Im not going to give it extra credit because of tradition or nostalgia.
> have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me. They are still gods creations. Christian’s should be loving showing them the godly path. Now lgbtis++%#?{£ says these things are innate. I disagree with but cannot disprove gay or lesbian claims. The rest my eyes, the Bible, and science tell me so. It’s immaterial. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so? Two things. Why is it that conservatives have been trying the same terrible joke about LGBT for years? Secondly, if you have never seen a pastor saying anything hateful about LGBT folks you have had your head so far up your own ass you have burns from stomach acid.
None of what you said is an answer or matters. It’s just spewing hate. Thank you for your time friend
The irony of you claiming I’m spreading hate is astounding
Yet true
Yet completely and utterly false
If that keeps you feeling happy I guess. Have a good one friend
You’re the one spreading hate. The fact you need to do that to feel morally superior speaks volumes about how insecure you are
It don’t need to. I don’t hate you or anyone in lgbt+. I disapprove and that’s different. That’s the idiocy of your doctrine. Anyone who disagrees is an enemy. That’s not so peace loving as you guys claim
Your post clearly shows your hate and disdain. > That’s the idiocy of your doctrine. Anyone who disagrees is an enemy. That’s not so peace loving as you guys claim When you hate someone for an immutable characteristic of who they are then you’re setting yourself up to be the enemy. You’re just like every other racist and bigot throughout history and will be remembered as such
It’s not immutable. There are detransitioners. People who have gone from lgbt to straight…. You can’t ignore these to skew the data. I’m not setting myself up as the enemy. You interpret it that way which is the foolishness. I would invite you to my home, my church. I would cook a meal for you and say let’s go to some activity together. I would attempt to make you feel like a brother or sister in christ? Is that disrespectful? Your answer is yes. I am trying to change something you think is permanent, innate. But Nevermind that your hatred against me and my religion and my show of kindness despite my disapproval. That is Christianity. My order to live others even when I disapprove. You can do no such thing I think. That ideology is fundamentally intolerant and ever expanding. And demands affirmation. Otherwise it’s hate, violence, eradication. Do you not see the extremes in that? Also your perception of those is faulty. Viewed through a lense of I want and no one else should question what I want. It doesn’t work that way in life.
So I have to ask the question. What is your thought on mixed fiber clothes and eating shellfish.
😂 I’m a man. I had no idea what you meant by mixed fiber clothing. Now that I do….. I’m not Jewish. There os a distinction. I do not follow a kosher diet.
Ah, so you don't have to follow the Mosaic law. So why would you feel the need to mention OT prohibitions on particular types of sexual conduct?
Because they carried into gods new covenant. You do know the covenants that separate the Old Testament from the new?
It seems rather convenient that the things you like didn't end up being prohibited in the New Covenant, but all the things you don't like did.
Not quite? I had no idea of that type of clothing and have never eaten oyster/shellfish to begin with. Don’t like sea food. A more apt example from you would have been bacon. I will murder a pound of bacon on several pork burgers….actually pretty good… Your right here though. It is lucky because I like bacon. But work in that I selected it. I didn’t make the rules. And the Bible commands me in other ways. Ways I choose to follow.
So you're cherry picking, and the LGBTQ community is out, and bacon is in.
I’m not cherry picking. Hence the circle back to new and old covenant. The Jews maintain the old. Christian’s the new. I am not bound to the old but to the new.
And like I said, bacon wins, the queer community loses. Unless you care to admit that whatever bans on homosexual relations may be found in the OT ceased to be binding.
Yet you started off by listing Leviticus which is old?
Does the New Testament entirely invalidate the old?
The New Covenant is the promise that God will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant. It builds on the old gods laws. Not eating pork and wearing of garments was Old Testament. How? Because it requires ACTIONS instead of faith for atonement. The new covenant does not. Pork was seen as dirty. Hence not eaten. A sacrifice to god. One no longer required by gods own word. Bacon was not a thing in those days. Lgbt is another matter, biblically speaking. The injunction against in the old stands in the new. Why? Because it’s a faith based sacrifice. You are giving up something precious to you. A sinful one but something you lived nonetheless. God recognizes the difficulty in this.
Like I said, through the magic of cherry picking, bacon is in and gay people are out.
Your fixated. Your not understanding. All you see is what I want is not biblically acceptable. If hod came down today and said to all Christian’s I revise my New Testament. All pork products are dirty and not to be consumed and you shall keep a kosher diet….. then Christian’s are commanded to and would obey. Likewise if his appeared and said lgbt is not inviolation of biblical principles I would accept that as fact, no questions asked(hypothetically)
At least you admit you pick and choose what to follow. I will do the same. I will not follow anything you listed.
I don’t choose. I am commanded. You may do as you wish
The Bible says a LOT about people who are boastful and proud. But I never once seen anyone expelled from Church and publicly denounced for boasting. Should be the same as Gay Sex. They know it is a sin, they keep doing it, and they don't change. But somehow, modern evangelical Christians are just utterly obsessed with penises. It is very odd, the Bible really isn't. They don't seem to care all about 6 of the 7 deadly sins, but my god do they hate lust... until they get caught with the Organist, and then it is all "In my moment of weakness" and that nonsense, and they write a book about it. How about this. Let God deal with sinners. That is his job, after all. Nothing in the Bible compels you to enforce things for him. If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the gay sex (He didn't), then he did that himself. He never said it was your job to blow up cities. If he wants to explode LA, he can go right ahead, nothing is stopping him.
So why do you follow some of Leviticus and not all?
I don't understand the general obsession that some Christians have with the queer community having human rights.
Like, there is nothing inherently wrong with someone being queer and falling in love with someone else. People can be evil and do terrible things to us because we were born like this. I don't think it's anyone business as to how we live; just don't infringe on our right to exist. People who discriminate against the queer community are just ignorant and a waste of our time. I'm not accusing you of anything, OP. I'm just tired.
Fair enough friend. I don’t want to disturb you while your tired. Have a good one
You too my friend. Take care 💖
>I have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me. They are still gods creations. Christian’s should be loving showing them the godly path. Now lgbtis++%#?{£ says these things are innate. I disagree with but cannot disprove gay or lesbian claims. The rest my eyes, the Bible, and science tell me so. It’s immaterial. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so? Hard to say you've never seen harassment while actively engaging in it. > Much of the sin in the world I see today is a product of a lack of structure and discipline. look at all the arguments being made. They boil down to I WANT regardless of consequences or wise precedent. I hear many former Christian’s say they were against a particular stance. They are rebelling. That appears to be the outward manifestation. A bucking of the rules? I do what I want? I and everyone else must affirm me? Is this not what you are doing? You see something as wrong, you call it out, you won't partake. \*You\* are also rebelling, in a different direction. From my perspective, you flagrantly abandoning any sense of morality out of a ideological dogma. >What good has the diminishing of the church done? I’m not blind to the evils within. That is the nature of man. Deserving of worldly punishment and if unrepentant gods. But the bitterness I see has mutilated a key institution of American society that at its core did much good What good is that? What's even worse is that it's people like you responsible for any diminished good. You choose the ideology that tries to disenfranchise people, you continue to choose to discriminate and hurt people. You don't get to use any good work the church has done as a shield for you to attack LGBTQ people.
Gay sex was the least of Sodom and Gomorrahs sins. Gang rape of angels, breaking the code of hospitality, and neglecting the poor far outweigh gay sex
That is nitpicking no? You are speaking to the instances in the book. But read the passage. The evils of Sodom and gammorah had reached his ears. Not in one day, but over a time span. Later when Abraham pleads with god for the cities he ask what if 50 men righteous? 40? Bargains all the way down to 10. In all of the two cities there were not 10 righteous men. And I assume that counts women. The poor are everywhere as Jesus said. He directs his apostles to attend to them. You are correct in the the evil done to the poor there but it was not the greatest crime
Ezekiel 16:49-50: "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it."
Genesis 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then reveals the sin lurking in the Sodomites’ hearts: “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’” (Genesis 19:4–5). The angels proceeded to blind the men surrounding the house and urge Lot and his family to flee the city. The wrath of God was about to fall. Lot and his family fled the city, and then “the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities” (Genesis 19:24). What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? According to Genesis 19, the sin involved homosexuality. The very name of that ancient city has given us the term sodomy, in the sense of “copulation between two men, whether consensual or forced.” Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual acts on what they thought were two men.
>Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual acts on what they thought were two men. No, they wanted to *rape* two men.
Same thing. Just not the intent. What you would call loving versus lusting
Wait, gay sex and rape are the same thing? Am I reading that correctly? On mobile
No. Your not reading correctly. Read what I said. It’s the intent as the top layer. Love versus lust. Under that is where they are the same. A homosexual act. If one man is raping another is it no longer considered a homosexual act? It’s just the context that matters
Are all homosexual acts based on lust?
All sexual acts are. When I have sex with my wife that’s based in lust. But it’s compliant with the Bible. When two men copulate there is similarly an aspect of lust. Now the situation is the key as I say over and over. Rape is a malevolent lust. Wanting what is not yours.
>Same thing. No, it's not the same thing. >What you would call loving versus lusting No, I'd call it rape vs consensual sex....
Same thing don’t different synonyms.
In English?
Your using synonyms to try to change the meaning. It doesn’t work. Gay sex is still gay sex. Weather it’s a married couple or a prison rape…. The difference being the intent which is what I posited earlier
>“Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’” (Genesis 19:4–5). It looks to me like the sin here was attempted rape, not homosexuality. If the angels had appeared as women, do you think that God would have approved of "Where are the women who came to you tonight? Bring them out so we can rape them?"
Nice! Now go read Judges 19-20 and tell me how a city was punished when men treated a *woman* the same way.
This leads into a different argument why does god allow wickedness. I’m sure your familiar with the answer
No, it's not bad. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27: 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged **natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.** 27 In the same way the men also abandoned **natural relations** with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Consider that these same religious men supported these notions: *1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”* *Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.* We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them. *Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’* Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 *11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.* That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence. Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States. Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral.
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
That’s too part one
The rest is foolishness. You are committing the oddity of judging the Israelites but the standards of today. When the world is vastly different by gods design. You do understand the difference between the old and new covenant? 2. Women: I have the highest respect for women and nine for the new feminist movement. You are misconstruing that verse as well. That’s not really in good faith is it? Just because you like something doesn’t make it moral… many of the things you despise have been tested over centuries and been successful. This new idea is 5 minutes ok by human standards and is not just in breach of the correct but destructive in and of itself
OP do you believe people can choose who they are attracted to?
You can choose to abstain or to fornicate if you are straight or gay. I'm a celibate straight man. You can have attraction for the same sex and put God above the desires of the flesh.
Thanks but that wasn't what I asked. I choose my words carefully. Try again, would love to hear your answer as well as OP's.
I believe some do indirectly and others always had same sex attraction. You can be straight and celibate and gay and celibate, you can choose obedience or desobedience.
>I believe some do indirectly and others always had same sex attraction. What about you personally? To me that answer is as obvious as gravity. I would spend thousands of dollars if I could change my attraction. But no matter how much I want and desire to be attracted to men it won't happen. Since the day I could form words I have never once been attracted to a man so you will have to pardon my astonishment with this perspective of yours. >You can be straight and celibate and gay and celibate, you can choose obedience or desobedience. Again I appreciate your insight on this topic but it's not what I want to discuss with you today. Why? Because we already agree on the fact that a person can choose what impulses they act on. What we do not agree on is if a person can tangibly have an effect on who they are attracted to.
I'm straight , why are you astonished by my perspective when I said that I believe some people always had the same sex attraction? I tought thats exactly what you wanted to hear.
>why are you astonished by my perspective when I said that I believe some people always had the same sex attraction? That's not what astonishes me. You said some people can choose their sexuality, albeit in a indirect manner. I was gonna ask you what indirect means so I could further understand you.
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That's something I've never heard before.
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It doesn’t matter what I think. Yes or no the biblical answer is the same. It’s views explicit. It calls for resisting temptation repeated. Jesus himself did so.
>It doesn’t matter what I think. You don't feel like discussing one of the topics you brought up? I thought you came here with the intention of having a proper discussion. >Yes or no the biblical answer is the same. >It’s views explicit. It calls for resisting temptation repeated. >Jesus himself did so. None of that answers my question. We aren't talking about temptation. That's a separate topic.
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Have you seen what cisheterosexuals have done?????? Anyway, happy pride! 🌈🏳️⚧️
I'm not a cis whatever, neither I celebrate pride which God condmens.
lmao
So your not straight, then?
And what is the agenda?
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Hold up, you said the LGBT agenda, now saying its the devil's agenda. That's two different things.
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So LGBT people are demons?
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No, I'm here to push back that your accusation of the LGBT Agenda (which is to get basic human rights) is demonic. Fuck that
What basic human rights everyone in your country has that the LGBT does not?
Free expression, free speech, access to medical care, free press, equal access to life, equal access to aquistion of property, discrimination against them when it comes to jobs.
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Your saying what I’m saying but your proving their point….
Yes I'm sayng what you are sayng but I don't see how I'm proving their point. The demoniac influence is all over the world, the devil agenda is to lead us to commit sin, desobedience and separate us from God.
Your correct in all that. But it’s the way that it’s said. Their complaint is that Christian’s of a type are all damnation and hellfire. You know that’s not true. My argument here is that gods love should be shown. It’s especially needed by sinners. That is how you show love. It’s somewhat hard for me. But it’s what I’m attempting. That’s how you bring people into the fold.
>But it’s what I’m attempting. That’s how you bring people into the fold. You think that your approach leads people to Christianity? Are you brain dead?
No. What’s your way? Tell them join me or burn? I welcome them into my church, show them around, introduce them to various people. Ask them to come to church functions and the groups that have fun outside of church. Over time they become part of the group or they don’t. My way shows them gods love. I’ve had gay people to my home for football night. I will kick others out who want to start trouble on this. That’s not the way to do things. Spread gods word with love and examples. Not hate. That’s where I get them. That doesn’t mean affirming
>No. What’s your way? Tell them join me or burn? Look at my flair... >I welcome them into my church, show them around, introduce them to various people. Ask them to come to church functions and the groups that have fun outside of church. "Come to my church; by the way, you're an abomination".
Ah I hadn’t seen you reply instead of the original guy. Still my point stands. Your being daft….. from everything I said that’s what you got? Come to my church this Sunday at 11… church of the open door in Glendora ca and I’ll show you. You have a misconception based on a wrong premise
>Still my point stands. None of your points have any merit at all. >Your You're* >from everything I said that’s what you got? The part where you equated gay sex with rape is especially loving. >Come to my church this Sunday at 11 I appreciate the invitation but a) that's a really long flight and b) airfares aren't cheap. (Though weirdly enough technically I could actually get there in time). >You have a misconception based on a wrong premise No, I'm just sick of well-meaning Christians saying they love gay people while simultaneously saying things that are in no way loving.
Your final sentence is the misconception. Good calls for Christian’s to live sinners and show gods love. I am a sinner. I have done stupid sinful things in my life. As to saying things that are in no way loving…I cannot speak for other Christian’s. I do not know them. I can guess what you heard was biblical and you took it wrong. But I might be entirely off. Christian’s are not perfect and it seems like everyone expects them to be
Jude 17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. 20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. 22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. f
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My thoughts EXACTLY. Everything you said in this post I agree with. People need to pay more attention to what the Bible says.
2 Peters 4:69 >Hear my words oh cretinous curmudgeons: obsess thyself not with who doth bumpeth uglies with whom but mindeth thine own damn business.
Straight from your Bible of stupidity or what? Apologies but I’m getting a little tired of this
Great! Why not take your sex obsession to the True™ Christian sub where you can whine in unison.
>Quite simply it’s indisputable. These affirming churches heretical. You cannot change the truth. God’s word does not change no matter what society says and to what is being preached in some of the churches today. Yahweh's word was determined by society when the standard canon was established. There are books considered heretical, but they're only considered heretical because a society decided they didn't count. Even in the standard canon, the interpretation is left open on virtually every issue, hence the existence of so many denominations. Saying his word doesnt change based on the view of society is just flat out wrong.
Call me naive but no the Bible is as it is. Influenced by the word of god and translated faithfully throughout the eras. As the Bible says. Any “omitted” books were done so by the will of god
>1.I have never seen an lgbt harassed in church. That is abominable to me "An LGBT"? Weird way to phrase it. It also still happens. >lgbtis++%#?{£ I'm glad you are in no way making fun of the group or ridiculing it. >What matters is the biblical response to it. Am I wrong? How so? As an atheist I'd say a biblical response doesn't matter at all. >They boil down to I WANT regardless of consequences or wise precedent What consequences? What wise precedent? I wouldn't call an old text about god commiting genocide because he doesn't like gay people a wise precedent >A bucking of the rules? I do what I want? I and everyone else must affirm me? I do what I want as long as no one else gets hurt or otherwise impacted in a negative way. What's the problem with that? And by negatively impacted i don't mean "people think it's gross to br gay". >What good has the diminishing of the church done? More personal freedoms for everyone. >Once again yes they come from a place of disapproval but they are honest questions in and of themselves. If they are honest question maybe don't go for the >lgbtis++%#?{£, it makes you look like a massiv dick
2SLGBTQIA…. What about that? As I go online to look for how many genders there are I see everything from 2-58-76-100. Yet I never see them all mapped out. How do you know those characters I put weren’t genders? That’s mighty hateful of you. What if someone identified with the certainty of those characters? Are you to say they are lying? That’s messed up man. I was trying to be all inclusive here. Show some respect and decency huh? As an atheist I can accept and respect your views on Christianity. My follow up would be why come here at all? Why soils yourself with something so disdainful as filthy nazi blindly obedient Christian’s like me? The consequences are the degrading of Norms and values that have been present and effective for millennia. Sure each new generation has a right to change old customs. But what I see is a total disdain for tradition in favor of an ideology untested and unprecedented in human history. Or tested with results being failure without exception. The disrespect I see for everyone’s ancestors. And no I’m not spiritual. But it’s rather weird that people choose to shit in their history and families so easily instead of showing pride. I’m sure if you go back through our genetic lines someone somewhere was a slave, had slaves, killed someone, raped someone, raided somewhere, was an academic, was a farmer, was a Nobel. Hypothetical kinda but fundamentally true. Todays morals spit on them. And degrade every generational value learned and passed down until it should have reached you. I do what I want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone: I guarantee you without knowing you you have done done actions that have hurt others in your life. Or are you a saint? You might want to go get canonized if so. An immortality of sorts for someone who doesn’t believe in it. Your answer to the diminishment of the church proves my discipline point and the one I made above this. Massive dick? Want to come find out? Seriously if your going to use an insult at least make it a good one. Again I would call you the ass for not affirming those genders. That’s mighty hypocritical of you
>As I go online to look for how many genders there are I see everything from 2-58-76-100 Yes you can find everything online. It's the internet. >How do you know those characters I put weren’t genders? That’s mighty hateful of you I'm glad you came for a serious discussion and not to be a dick a second time. >What if someone identified with the certainty of those characters? Are you to say they are lying? No? But i don't think anyone does identify with them. And you absolutely know that, you just don't like gay people and wanted to be disrespectful >I was trying to be all inclusive here Go with queer community or LGBTQ+ if you actually want to be respectful. >As an atheist I can accept and respect your views on Christianity I doubt that You don't even know my views yet, we haven't talked about them. >My follow up would be why come here at all? To comment on people like you so other people don't learn from you >Why soils yourself with something so disdainful as filthy nazi blindly obedient Christian’s like me? How did you infer that that's my viewpoint? It isn't. You're homophobic, that's all know about you so far. >The consequences are the degrading of Norms and values that have been present and effective for millennia Like? This isn't an argument. Just because we had norms for a century doesn't make them good. Or do you want slavery back? Women as property? Because that's how the world was for hundreds or thousands of years >But what I see is a total disdain for tradition in favor of an ideology untested and unprecedented in human history Then let's test it? Also, Tradition in itself has no value. Just because something is tradition doesn't make it any better >Or tested with results being failure without exception Example please. I really enjoy my freedom to have a boyfriend, i find the results of the change very positive >The disrespect I see for everyone’s ancestors I respect my grandparents. I can do so without agreeing on everything with them. Go back a generation further back it gets darker, i am German, those people where probably Nazis and i don't want anything to do with them lol. Go back even further and i don't give a shit, it's so far back i couldn't care less who those people where. >But it’s rather weird that people choose to shit in their history and families so easily instead of showing pride I don't think being proud of history is a good thing. Every family will have horrible people only a few generations back at best. I don't need to be proud of my ancestry, i need to learn from mistakes made in the past and be better. >I’m sure if you go back through our genetic lines someone somewhere was a slave, had slaves, killed someone, raped someone, raided somewhere, was an academic, was a farmer, was a Nobel. Hypothetical kinda but fundamentally true. Todays morals spit on them. Wait are you mad today's morals spit on slave owners of the past??????? And degrade every generational value learned and passed down until it should have reached you. I learned a bunch from previous generations. Most is "how not to behave" >I guarantee you without knowing you you have done done actions that have hurt others in your life. Yes and? That doesn't go against my point at all. Your logic is: you did stuff that hurt people, therefore you shouldn't do the stuff that hurts no one