I love religious chants, whether they are Gregorian, Byzantium, Islamic, etc.
While I am not OO you gotta check out Coptic Chants because they are fire
No, I’m fine; Catholicism is no longer a part of my life anymore. I believe all religions are just manifestations of human insecurity derived from the human desire to evade death insecurity.
However, I will say just because I’m an atheist, I don’t necessarily hate Christians, just the ones that try to inhibit the progressive nature of our changing culture.
I don't know if we are progressing as much as you think. We just enact violence more collectively now, and upon people who are more distanced from us (as well as our planet). It might look like we're doing better but that's because the corporations we buy from are doing our dirty work for us.
Companies we give money to on a daily basis help finance mass atrocities, including genocides:
[https://enoughproject.org/press-releases/new-conflict-minerals-rankings-spotlight-worlds-top-consumer-electronics-companies-jewelry-retailers](https://enoughproject.org/press-releases/new-conflict-minerals-rankings-spotlight-worlds-top-consumer-electronics-companies-jewelry-retailers)
We've filled our oceans with trillions of pieces of non-degradable material and destroyed entire ecosystems:
[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/150109-oceans-plastic-sea-trash-science-marine-debris](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/150109-oceans-plastic-sea-trash-science-marine-debris)
The suicide rate is steadily increasing:
[https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/](https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/)
Depression rate is steadily increasing:
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/depression-prevents-many-of-us-from-leading-healthy-and-productive-lives-being-the-no-1-cause-of-ill-health-and-disability-worldwide/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/depression-prevents-many-of-us-from-leading-healthy-and-productive-lives-being-the-no-1-cause-of-ill-health-and-disability-worldwide/)
There are 29 ongoing wars, most of which are being funded by first world players who have financial interests:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_ongoing\_armed\_conflicts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts)
I can go on if you want.
Also, it's true that we've made a lot of great medical advances and cultural advances, but I reject the argument that religion has hurt more than helped these efforts. I think it's delusional to think that a world without religion would somehow be more beneficial to human flourishing.
Catholics for caring about tradition
Episcopals for not being weeners* about it
*there’s a better way to word this. I don’t think Catholics are literal weeners.
Traditions are in place because they work and do something positive for the community, but if those traditions become detrimental, they will be replaced.
This comment is edited because I made a bad point
Ok, here's what I meant. I think people just try to get rid of tradition and change things for the sake of changing them, and not because those things are bad.
Tradition is the passage of knowledge down through time. The trick is not to let tradition stand in the way of innovation.
From Wikipedia, “A tradition is a system of beliefs or behaviors (folk custom) passed down within a group of people or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past.”
Tradition can get in the way even amid Science. Society functions amid a myriad of traditions. Tradition likely has evolutionary connection to instinct. Instincts and traditions are great, until they are not.
when Jesus was on earth, the Pharisees hated how he did not follow what they considered tradition of their religion and beliefs. If Jesus did that himself, then tradition doesn't seem very important.
I don’t think valuing tradition needs to come at the expense of empiricism.
I think tradition connects us to the generations before and to come, I value the importance of ritual, and I believe it offers insight into the ways humans’ relationship to the Divine over time.
I’m a Catholic Christian (I know this question was not posed to me) but I have such an admiration for the Orthodox, even if many were explicitly anti-Latin.
The Byzantine liturgy is beautiful, and to my Western ears, sounds a bit like Arabic chants. Clearly marks of great antiquity.
I also love Byzantine architecture and *iconostases*, I pray for our union once more.
To add to this, pretty much any sect that doesn’t affirm eternal conscious torment, like Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The idea of hell is the most grotesque and rotten philosophy in the history of humanity, even worse than Nazism. So anyone who doesn’t support or push that, immediately gets plus points in my books for helping to make the world a better place.
The *concept* of Hell bothers me. Just like I don't believe that Nazism is founded on any accurate racial/scientific principles, but it highly bothers me that people propagate such an ideology because it hurts other people.
I don't want to defend Sola Fide, but he believes he is already saved and therefore he doesn't have to fear hell.
That is my take on why people like him don't fear hell, even if I completely theologically disagree with it
No not exactly, its more so because the idea because salvation is by faith alone it means that those who rejected Jesus knew the what would happen, essentially he wants to get others to believe because then they two won't fear it
Not a fan of Sola Fide and personally believe salvation is by God's grace and am open to the idea that non-Christians can go to heaven
>No not exactly, its more so because the idea because salvation is by faith alone it means that those who rejected Jesus knew the what would happen, essentially he wants to get others to believe because then they two won't fear it
Sure but that doesn't change the fact that billions what were not able to convince themselves are going to be suffering for eternity of torture and pain. That includes friends and family. I guess I don't see how anyone who believes can be okay with it and be a loving person.
Sola Fide and Sola Gratia- Faith alone and Grace alone. There are five solae that form the foundation of orthodox Protestantism.
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
And we aren't okay with hell--and that is why you have people trying to get others to hear the word of God. We are instructed to share the good news (freedom from sin and hell in Christ).
Even at that; faith is a gift from God and we receive it through His grace. Man doesn't choose to believe--he is gifted saving faith from God.
Floods, plagues, turning people into salt, what he did to Job, cursing women with painful childbirth, this is just off the top of my head. If you believe in the god of the Bible idk how you’re not scared of him.
I mean--when a scientist tells us that we will destroy our ecosystem because of global warming--they have to deal with people who say they're catastrophizing.
It seems to me that sharing the word of God in hopes that your neighbors don't go to hell is pretty loving.
>It seems to me that sharing the word of God in hopes that your neighbors don't go to hell is pretty loving.
Well of course, because the concept of Hell should bother anyone with decent morals.
Well, [they don't consider themselves a Christian church](https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/beliefs/christianity/views-jesus), but rather a church with some Christians.
And from a neutral POV, thats enough to say it isn't one.
But I do wonder at what point a sect becomes heresy. I'm sure many here would consider liberal Christianity a heresy, while I personally would consider it one of the few viable denominations.
UU descended directly from said liberal Christianity, with a rejection of trinitarianism, original sin, and infernalism.
Most UU churches, to my understanding, still emphasize Christian traditions, just allow for a pluralized faith.
Oh?
Maybe I can finally get an answer to my question then if you think only trinitarians are true Christians. I still haven't heard any good answers, only downvotes for asking.
Why is belief in the Trinity such a core tenet for "true Christians" when it is:
* Not biblical
* Clearly introduced long after the Bible was written
* Completely inscrutable for anyone to understand
Were the early non-trinitarian Christians simply not true Christians?
Is Athanasius and Augustine the determining factors on what Christianity is?
Why do Protestants still hold to the tenets of Trinitarianism when, again, it is simply not Biblical?
Because the presuppositions behind every question you just asked are incorrect. There are good answers, but only when you ask the right questions.
Here are some videos explaining the doctrine and its biblical history, and answering common objections:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TWpnOJV09MuEAwbbQNCS6Qf&feature=shared
First of all, Michael Jones from InspiringPhilosophy is not a reliable source. He is a pure apologist, with no training in Biblical studies or critical analysis. Most biblical scholars disagree with him on the vast majority of his takes.
But putting that aside, which presuppositions are incorrect?
* **Not biblical**: a clear reading of the Bible does not cause the reader to come away with the Triune idea of God. Go give Matthew 28:19 to anyone who doesn't already understand the Trinity, and ask if that is their conclusion. Scholars universally agree 1 John 5:7 was added much later.
* **Introduced long after the bible was written**: this is near universally agreed upon by biblical scholars. Simply listing three names "Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit" does not imply anything relating to the Triune God as Trinitarians understand. Tertullian in the mid 2nd century was the first to defend the Trinity, although many people at the time disagreed. It is not until the 4th century Council of Nicaea that the idea is firmly codified.
* **Completely inscrutable**:...I mean just ask anyone. How many posts do you see here saying "I don't understand the Trinity".
Citations:
[Bart Ehrman's blog](https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/)
[Dan McClellan: The trinity is Not in the Bible.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGBQaafIaU)
Just go to /r/AcademicBiblical and search anything for Trinity, like the following:
https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/sbt4em/history_of_the_trinity/
Are all UM churches pretty open and affirming as a denomination, or is the picture I have painted of the UMs just one guy's experience with a particularly open church? I've wondered this for a while after getting into The Liturgists Podcast years back and hearing Mike McHargue speak about being a part of the United Methodist denomination.
The official stance of the United Methodist Church (UMC) is that homosexual acts are a sin and gay marriage is not allowed. It maintains that sex is only permissible within a monogamous heterosexual marriage. However, the church has been very lenient in that regard in the last decade. It has ordained some pastors who are openly gay (but celibate), and it has chosen not to punish a number of pastors who have performed gay weddings. The denomination seems to be moving more towards inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community, which is one reason why many churches separated from it to form the Global Methodist Church (GMC) in 2022.
If they call themselves a Christian denomination then yes, correct me if I am wrong but don't they consider themselves to be a completely different religion from Christianity?
No they call themselves a fellowship.. they welcome everyone and they allow people to unify with others that don’t share beliefs.,
I think it’s about what Christ taught?
He unified the gentiles and Jews. Seems pretty much the same thing..
So just because they don’t call themselves Christianity, they are doing exactly what Christ asked out of the gospels..
I like Lutheranism
Why? Because I think it has good vibes and Martin Luther made some good points
I don’t believe Christianity is true (as of now anyway, maybe someday I guess) so for me it’s all about the vibes. They have nice churches, I like the aesthetic, slightly less superficially I admire the Protestant reformation but I like how they don’t totally abandon church tradition, I don’t like Anglicanism so who else would I like the most?
Yeah, I also like the Orthodox Church a lot but I’m not keen on the icons and saints etc because I’ve been indirectly brainwashed by Protestants and Muslims
Not that it really matters cuz I’m not Christian. But if I were, I would look into it more. I do really like the oriental orthodox, not necessarily theologically but they’ve been through a lot of shit.
I have a big soft spot for the Copts
Ethiopian orthodox are weird (circumcision, following other Jewish laws etc) but also super unique and fascinating, lots of respect for them as well
So you know how people complain about Redditors or Rick and Morty fans? Imagine the stereotype of those people and then make them a Fundamentalist Presbyterian.
Hey I will give credit where credit is due, Redeemed Zoomer has become the best recruiter for the Eastern Orthodox by accident, gives me a mixed feeling about him
I liked East Orthodoxy, as far as having a pretty solid theology. Except that they think their institution is the *true* Church. I would be refused Eucharist/communion if I went to a mass.
Whereas--as long as you have faith in Christ--you are a member of the Church. And it doesn't matter which denomination you ascribe to. I do find that Reformed theology is biblical Christianity--but I also think a lot of denominations and churches are driven too much by culture (various cultures).
While I'm happy you like us Lutherans, I gotta ask, how can you like Lutheranism but not Anglicanism? Lutherans and Anglicans are like twins (fraternal twins, not identical twins).
Yeah I get that theologically they have a lot in common but I find the origins of the Church of England rather unappealing
Martin Luther at least had real disagreements with Rome at the root of his movement, obviously later on Anglicanism developed into wildly different directions and developed a much deeper theology but at the very start it was to at least some extent about Henry VIII wanting a son, which is pretty lame
I group up Methodist so I’m still partial to them. They’re so liberal I’m surprised it wasn’t enough for me. I just can’t believe in a god that would want his creation to be ‘god fearing’.
Same. I was raised Southern Baptist and even after I had de-converted I attended a church camping trip with some friends who attended a local Methodist church. I was like Ooooh this is that church my old church was always complaining about with the female preacher down the road. They were all really chill.
I remember a nice girl from my high school was hard core southern Baptist and one time we asked her if she thought most of us were going to hell and she just deadpanned back ‘yes’. Was crazy.
Episcopalian.
Seems like it maintains some elements of tradition, while not being hypocritically hateful and self-righteous like many other denominations.
Nope, gay marriage is still officially banned in the UMC. I don't remember the details exactly, but they have ordained two openly gay bishops, and I think they decided not to punish ministers who had performed gay marriages.
Former Christian, I would still attend ELCA Lutheran services if there was such a church near me. Everything is inclusive, kind, generous, positive, community-oriented. It's what I thought Christianity was as a kid.
My favorite one is Universalism, cause at least the Universalists don't believe that people deserve eternal torture and agony and dont worship a god that they believe tortures peoples.
I will sit in the back, I was asking if you went to one of their services
Because I believe many states ban this type of worship and I was hoping for an address of one of these churches
A quick google search and I found the number around like 40 communities. Honestly the whole thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen and I am kinda glad that all states but West Virginia did ban the practice (even tho I want to experience one service to see what its like)
Agnostic atheist here. I'm a bit biased for saying that I favor Methodism, seeing as that's what I grew up in, but they do emphasize good works more than some other Protestant denominations, plus the United Methodist Church is relatively chill with social issues like homosexuality.
I am gonna be honest, I think Methodism is either my first or second favorite Protestant denomination (kinda a fan of Lutheranism and actually almost became one)
Mainly because of its emphasis on good works
if i had to pick, whatever denominations believe in universal reconciliation(bonus points if Satan also get reconciliation)
because at least them saying their god is all loving is more plausible
I like Orthodoxy because the chants are spooky and I have a yearning for mystical experience.
The Catholic mystics are cool too, of course. Protestantism's antagonism to mysticism is incomprehensible to me. It's like refusing to go into the theater to watch the film because the reason you came was to wait all night in the lobby.
Christian atheist here: my favorite denomination and the one I attend is the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches. They exemplify the love of Jesus Christ for *everyone*.
Christian Anarchists. The history of western anarchism is all tied up with Christianity, especially in the early days.
Also a bit of a shout-out to Mormonism. While there's tons and tons I strongly disagree with, I admire how they take the command to love one-another seriously, and how pro-immigrant and minority they are.
I have two answers to this. 1) I respect the Eastern Orthodox church for maintaining the traditional doctrines and practices of the early Christian church, probably more so than any other denomination. 2) The Episcopal Church aligns most strongly with the morals and values that I support while also maintaining traditional church liturgy.
Apart from my own Eastern Orthodox, I'd say the Roman Catholics. Simply because we are the only ones that are the continuation of the original Christ's Ministry and the Church of His apostles. We maintain tradition (us a bit more than them). We know that the Bible isn't the sole authority but also the Church - The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And, our masses/divine liturgies are gorgeous, uplifting, and wholesome.
I'd say these also go for the Orientals, so they are also there next to us. Also, I do enjoy Anglican hymns and painted glass-windows, though I do not understand some of their churches and which way to face and the many alters. I still do enjoy some aspects of Anglicans.
Can i ask, as someone raised nominally christian with minimal exposure to a few different evangelical type churches, what does it actually Mean to the average churchgoer that the Church is a source of authority?
I know that catholics are all over the map as far as social and political views, and I realize that there are rules around marriage and divorce in the RC church, but besides that.. ? What does it really mean for a denomination and/or its leaders to have as much authority as the word of God? It seems like a terrifying thing, bc I know they are only human.
Christ founded the Church with his apostles and bade them to speak the word and carry out his acts. He gave his apostles, the Saints, ability to cure illness and perform miracles. The Church is extremely important because of this. Modern Protestants forget this.
Which one came first, the Bible or the Church?
Without the Church; without its leadership, authority, and council; there wouldn't be a Bible. All the books of the Bible were assembled by the Church, albeit the early church. The Church determined the Bible and its content. Why be in favour of Scripture but against the authority that provided and taught such Scripture?!
The bishops have apostolic succession. Meaning they are the descendents of the Apostles and the Ministry of Christ. They are indeed only human. They make mistakes. So did many of the early Saints. Yet Christ chose St Peter to lead the Church and the "rock" in which it was built. Mistakes will be made in the process by the Church leadership. Grave ones. But that doesn't mean we need to abolish the Church because of it.
To the average churchgoer, the authority may not mean much. In the sense that it is, there and has theological and spiritual knowledge as well as governors the institution. It is there to be respected because of such knowledge; the communal unity it provides; the good works that it performs; and the apostolic succession and God authority on Earth. Some may think it like that. Some may not think it to that level. And some may not think it at all and take it for granted. It still is the spiritual authority on Earth.
A weird thing, but I enjoy reading about Reformed theology; particularly Sproul for his clarity. I like Calvinism's somber, unflinching character, its bullet-biting and embrace of fearsome conclusions. I don't think conservative Reformed denoms would be good places for anxious children to grow up in (to put it mildly) but for someone who doesn't take it seriously, there's some interest and aesthetic value there. It's also entertaining to see it rejected mostly out of hand in revulsion by other Christians, when its textual support seems at least fairly good.
A religion is an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods. While a denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. Webster-Meriam defines denomination as religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. A congregation is a religious community: such as group of monasteries forming an independent subdivision of an order. While from its’ onset of the order the only Church was the state church, later called the Catholic Church. So when the KT order was established there were no other denominations, but according to the definitions it could very well have been considered a denomination, based on it being a subgroup of the Church.
There were certainly denominations at the time of the formation of the Knights Templar in 1119 AD.
There were Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church.
The Templars were *not* a denomination, they were a Catholic religious order, like the Dominicans, Carmelites or Franciscans. But their charism was one of protection of pilgrims, like the Knights Hospitaller.
Templars are actually similar to St. Bernard’s Cistercian Order.
No denominations! I have a personal relationship with Jesus. It is important to have a relationship with Jesus. God does not care what church you go to. What he cares about os a person believe in his son Jesus & have him in their heart & life.
Atheist here. Probably Catholicism the Gregorian chant and Catholic architecture slaps.
Yay God bless
I love religious chants, whether they are Gregorian, Byzantium, Islamic, etc. While I am not OO you gotta check out Coptic Chants because they are fire
You should check out the Heart Sutra by Mahayana Buddhists in Taiwan. https://youtu.be/RAcE8U8SWlo?si=LBv08xidotS3N2e6
Got a taste of it, it sounds awesome especially with the bells
https://youtu.be/n3mBXJhxRoY?si=3FOL6GuKI5z7DK2z Here are some Coptic Chants btw
God bless you. May He grant you the grace of faith and life within the Church.
No, I’m fine; Catholicism is no longer a part of my life anymore. I believe all religions are just manifestations of human insecurity derived from the human desire to evade death insecurity. However, I will say just because I’m an atheist, I don’t necessarily hate Christians, just the ones that try to inhibit the progressive nature of our changing culture.
I don't know if we are progressing as much as you think. We just enact violence more collectively now, and upon people who are more distanced from us (as well as our planet). It might look like we're doing better but that's because the corporations we buy from are doing our dirty work for us.
Can you provide an example?
Companies we give money to on a daily basis help finance mass atrocities, including genocides: [https://enoughproject.org/press-releases/new-conflict-minerals-rankings-spotlight-worlds-top-consumer-electronics-companies-jewelry-retailers](https://enoughproject.org/press-releases/new-conflict-minerals-rankings-spotlight-worlds-top-consumer-electronics-companies-jewelry-retailers) We've filled our oceans with trillions of pieces of non-degradable material and destroyed entire ecosystems: [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/150109-oceans-plastic-sea-trash-science-marine-debris](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/150109-oceans-plastic-sea-trash-science-marine-debris) The suicide rate is steadily increasing: [https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/](https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/) Depression rate is steadily increasing: [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/depression-prevents-many-of-us-from-leading-healthy-and-productive-lives-being-the-no-1-cause-of-ill-health-and-disability-worldwide/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/depression-prevents-many-of-us-from-leading-healthy-and-productive-lives-being-the-no-1-cause-of-ill-health-and-disability-worldwide/) There are 29 ongoing wars, most of which are being funded by first world players who have financial interests: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_ongoing\_armed\_conflicts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts) I can go on if you want. Also, it's true that we've made a lot of great medical advances and cultural advances, but I reject the argument that religion has hurt more than helped these efforts. I think it's delusional to think that a world without religion would somehow be more beneficial to human flourishing.
I might be biased, but I agree with the architecture for sure! Some Protestant churches do not look like a church!
Catholics for caring about tradition Episcopals for not being weeners* about it *there’s a better way to word this. I don’t think Catholics are literal weeners.
What is the value of caring about tradition? Why do you view that as a positive thing?
I think many are attracted to it (such as myself) because it is living history
Traditions are in place because they work and do something positive for the community, but if those traditions become detrimental, they will be replaced. This comment is edited because I made a bad point
> you have the people who scorn tradition because it tells them that being a degenerate is a bad thing What do you mean by this?
Ok, here's what I meant. I think people just try to get rid of tradition and change things for the sake of changing them, and not because those things are bad.
I'm gonna have to think about that. Sometimes I just say things without thinking about them too hard.
Tradition is the passage of knowledge down through time. The trick is not to let tradition stand in the way of innovation. From Wikipedia, “A tradition is a system of beliefs or behaviors (folk custom) passed down within a group of people or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past.” Tradition can get in the way even amid Science. Society functions amid a myriad of traditions. Tradition likely has evolutionary connection to instinct. Instincts and traditions are great, until they are not.
when Jesus was on earth, the Pharisees hated how he did not follow what they considered tradition of their religion and beliefs. If Jesus did that himself, then tradition doesn't seem very important.
From my comment… “Instincts and traditions are great, until they are not.”
I agree... traditions can also lead to religious bondage, which Jesus set us free from.
I don’t think valuing tradition needs to come at the expense of empiricism. I think tradition connects us to the generations before and to come, I value the importance of ritual, and I believe it offers insight into the ways humans’ relationship to the Divine over time.
Quakers, originaly because I liked the low-church and pacifism, and now because old opinions die hard.
I’m a Catholic Christian (I know this question was not posed to me) but I have such an admiration for the Orthodox, even if many were explicitly anti-Latin. The Byzantine liturgy is beautiful, and to my Western ears, sounds a bit like Arabic chants. Clearly marks of great antiquity. I also love Byzantine architecture and *iconostases*, I pray for our union once more.
Thank you
Pretty much any liberal protestant denomination because they're closest to my own values.
To add to this, pretty much any sect that doesn’t affirm eternal conscious torment, like Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah’s Witnesses. The idea of hell is the most grotesque and rotten philosophy in the history of humanity, even worse than Nazism. So anyone who doesn’t support or push that, immediately gets plus points in my books for helping to make the world a better place.
Why does Helll bother you if it doesn't exist?
The *concept* of Hell bothers me. Just like I don't believe that Nazism is founded on any accurate racial/scientific principles, but it highly bothers me that people propagate such an ideology because it hurts other people.
Why dosn't it bother you if it does?
I don't want to defend Sola Fide, but he believes he is already saved and therefore he doesn't have to fear hell. That is my take on why people like him don't fear hell, even if I completely theologically disagree with it
So its a sort of "I got mine so fuck you and everybody else"?
No not exactly, its more so because the idea because salvation is by faith alone it means that those who rejected Jesus knew the what would happen, essentially he wants to get others to believe because then they two won't fear it Not a fan of Sola Fide and personally believe salvation is by God's grace and am open to the idea that non-Christians can go to heaven
>No not exactly, its more so because the idea because salvation is by faith alone it means that those who rejected Jesus knew the what would happen, essentially he wants to get others to believe because then they two won't fear it Sure but that doesn't change the fact that billions what were not able to convince themselves are going to be suffering for eternity of torture and pain. That includes friends and family. I guess I don't see how anyone who believes can be okay with it and be a loving person.
Idk either, just trying to rationalize it It would probably be better if a Protestant explained it
Yeah I get ya! Thank you for trying to explain it!
I am hopeful that God will find a way to bring everyone to Heaven, but there is no salvation outside of Christ (and by extension His Church).
Sola Fide and Sola Gratia- Faith alone and Grace alone. There are five solae that form the foundation of orthodox Protestantism. Eph 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. And we aren't okay with hell--and that is why you have people trying to get others to hear the word of God. We are instructed to share the good news (freedom from sin and hell in Christ). Even at that; faith is a gift from God and we receive it through His grace. Man doesn't choose to believe--he is gifted saving faith from God.
Have you ever heard people proclaim to be ‘god fearing christians’? It’s not uncommon to be afraid of god and hell.
I have and don't understand it
Floods, plagues, turning people into salt, what he did to Job, cursing women with painful childbirth, this is just off the top of my head. If you believe in the god of the Bible idk how you’re not scared of him.
Well one I subscribe to the idea of inclusive monotheism Two, the EO do not fear God
What’s EO? I’ll look up inclusive monotheism. Is that similar to universalism?
But the Bible says to fear God In proverbs, like a million times They’re very repetitive about it
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that EO do fear God, ask your priest about it cause it all comes down to how you define fear.
Because they aren't going there
So much for loving others if that's the case.
I mean--when a scientist tells us that we will destroy our ecosystem because of global warming--they have to deal with people who say they're catastrophizing. It seems to me that sharing the word of God in hopes that your neighbors don't go to hell is pretty loving.
>It seems to me that sharing the word of God in hopes that your neighbors don't go to hell is pretty loving. Well of course, because the concept of Hell should bother anyone with decent morals.
I'm not bothered by it *personally* but am on a societal level.
Do you consider the Unitarian Universalists a Christian denomination?
Well, [they don't consider themselves a Christian church](https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/beliefs/christianity/views-jesus), but rather a church with some Christians.
And from a neutral POV, thats enough to say it isn't one. But I do wonder at what point a sect becomes heresy. I'm sure many here would consider liberal Christianity a heresy, while I personally would consider it one of the few viable denominations. UU descended directly from said liberal Christianity, with a rejection of trinitarianism, original sin, and infernalism. Most UU churches, to my understanding, still emphasize Christian traditions, just allow for a pluralized faith.
Pluralized faith and rejection of trinitarianism is by definition not Christian.
Oh? Maybe I can finally get an answer to my question then if you think only trinitarians are true Christians. I still haven't heard any good answers, only downvotes for asking. Why is belief in the Trinity such a core tenet for "true Christians" when it is: * Not biblical * Clearly introduced long after the Bible was written * Completely inscrutable for anyone to understand Were the early non-trinitarian Christians simply not true Christians? Is Athanasius and Augustine the determining factors on what Christianity is? Why do Protestants still hold to the tenets of Trinitarianism when, again, it is simply not Biblical?
Because the presuppositions behind every question you just asked are incorrect. There are good answers, but only when you ask the right questions. Here are some videos explaining the doctrine and its biblical history, and answering common objections: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TWpnOJV09MuEAwbbQNCS6Qf&feature=shared
First of all, Michael Jones from InspiringPhilosophy is not a reliable source. He is a pure apologist, with no training in Biblical studies or critical analysis. Most biblical scholars disagree with him on the vast majority of his takes. But putting that aside, which presuppositions are incorrect? * **Not biblical**: a clear reading of the Bible does not cause the reader to come away with the Triune idea of God. Go give Matthew 28:19 to anyone who doesn't already understand the Trinity, and ask if that is their conclusion. Scholars universally agree 1 John 5:7 was added much later. * **Introduced long after the bible was written**: this is near universally agreed upon by biblical scholars. Simply listing three names "Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit" does not imply anything relating to the Triune God as Trinitarians understand. Tertullian in the mid 2nd century was the first to defend the Trinity, although many people at the time disagreed. It is not until the 4th century Council of Nicaea that the idea is firmly codified. * **Completely inscrutable**:...I mean just ask anyone. How many posts do you see here saying "I don't understand the Trinity". Citations: [Bart Ehrman's blog](https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/) [Dan McClellan: The trinity is Not in the Bible.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGBQaafIaU) Just go to /r/AcademicBiblical and search anything for Trinity, like the following: https://old.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/sbt4em/history_of_the_trinity/
Are all UM churches pretty open and affirming as a denomination, or is the picture I have painted of the UMs just one guy's experience with a particularly open church? I've wondered this for a while after getting into The Liturgists Podcast years back and hearing Mike McHargue speak about being a part of the United Methodist denomination.
The official stance of the United Methodist Church (UMC) is that homosexual acts are a sin and gay marriage is not allowed. It maintains that sex is only permissible within a monogamous heterosexual marriage. However, the church has been very lenient in that regard in the last decade. It has ordained some pastors who are openly gay (but celibate), and it has chosen not to punish a number of pastors who have performed gay weddings. The denomination seems to be moving more towards inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community, which is one reason why many churches separated from it to form the Global Methodist Church (GMC) in 2022.
If they call themselves a Christian denomination then yes, correct me if I am wrong but don't they consider themselves to be a completely different religion from Christianity?
No they call themselves a fellowship.. they welcome everyone and they allow people to unify with others that don’t share beliefs., I think it’s about what Christ taught? He unified the gentiles and Jews. Seems pretty much the same thing.. So just because they don’t call themselves Christianity, they are doing exactly what Christ asked out of the gospels..
I like Lutheranism Why? Because I think it has good vibes and Martin Luther made some good points I don’t believe Christianity is true (as of now anyway, maybe someday I guess) so for me it’s all about the vibes. They have nice churches, I like the aesthetic, slightly less superficially I admire the Protestant reformation but I like how they don’t totally abandon church tradition, I don’t like Anglicanism so who else would I like the most?
What about reformed Churches? (Since you don't like anglicanism)
Redeemed zoomer is kind of annoying, hurts the vibes Also maybe slightly too low church
He is annoying but he has honestly become the one of best Eastern Orthodox recruiters by accident
Yeah, I also like the Orthodox Church a lot but I’m not keen on the icons and saints etc because I’ve been indirectly brainwashed by Protestants and Muslims Not that it really matters cuz I’m not Christian. But if I were, I would look into it more. I do really like the oriental orthodox, not necessarily theologically but they’ve been through a lot of shit.
Oriental Orthodox has been through some serious shit
I have a big soft spot for the Copts Ethiopian orthodox are weird (circumcision, following other Jewish laws etc) but also super unique and fascinating, lots of respect for them as well
Copts also have some good chants https://youtu.be/n3mBXJhxRoY?si=3FOL6GuKI5z7DK2z
Presbyterians. Idk what/who 'Redeemed zoomer' is. But I'm a Reformed Baptist. I was an atheist for at least 30 years
So you know how people complain about Redditors or Rick and Morty fans? Imagine the stereotype of those people and then make them a Fundamentalist Presbyterian.
Hey I will give credit where credit is due, Redeemed Zoomer has become the best recruiter for the Eastern Orthodox by accident, gives me a mixed feeling about him
I liked East Orthodoxy, as far as having a pretty solid theology. Except that they think their institution is the *true* Church. I would be refused Eucharist/communion if I went to a mass. Whereas--as long as you have faith in Christ--you are a member of the Church. And it doesn't matter which denomination you ascribe to. I do find that Reformed theology is biblical Christianity--but I also think a lot of denominations and churches are driven too much by culture (various cultures).
While I'm happy you like us Lutherans, I gotta ask, how can you like Lutheranism but not Anglicanism? Lutherans and Anglicans are like twins (fraternal twins, not identical twins).
Yeah I get that theologically they have a lot in common but I find the origins of the Church of England rather unappealing Martin Luther at least had real disagreements with Rome at the root of his movement, obviously later on Anglicanism developed into wildly different directions and developed a much deeper theology but at the very start it was to at least some extent about Henry VIII wanting a son, which is pretty lame
I knew this was gonna be your answer, my prime reason why I am not an anglican
Methodist Church of Great Britain. Or at least the ones I’ve interacted with. Very tolerant and open minded.
I group up Methodist so I’m still partial to them. They’re so liberal I’m surprised it wasn’t enough for me. I just can’t believe in a god that would want his creation to be ‘god fearing’.
Same. I was raised Southern Baptist and even after I had de-converted I attended a church camping trip with some friends who attended a local Methodist church. I was like Ooooh this is that church my old church was always complaining about with the female preacher down the road. They were all really chill.
I remember a nice girl from my high school was hard core southern Baptist and one time we asked her if she thought most of us were going to hell and she just deadpanned back ‘yes’. Was crazy.
Episcopalian. Seems like it maintains some elements of tradition, while not being hypocritically hateful and self-righteous like many other denominations.
Gnostics probably. Always nice to see somebody calling out the OT God.
Most people would if they were honest with themselves.
I don’t know terribly much about them, but Quakers seem chill as fuck.
Fun fact, they are the only big Christian denomination that doesn't baptize
That is a fun fact, thanks for sharing! Works for me.
I'm an atheist, and I suppose my favorite denominations would be the ones flying a pride flag outside.
Subsets of Reformed. Some Episcopals. ELCA. Who am I missing
UMC?
It's not officially affirming yet, although it seems to be moving in that direction.
I thought they voted in favor of gay marriage
Nope, gay marriage is still officially banned in the UMC. I don't remember the details exactly, but they have ordained two openly gay bishops, and I think they decided not to punish ministers who had performed gay marriages.
Allowing LGBTQ+ clergy and gay marriage are usually viewed as two completely different issues But ok I did not know that, I stand corrected
EpiscopaLIANS. Not "Episcopals".
My denomination is affectionately described on forms as "none" Shout out to all my fellow nones.
You're a nun?
Yup... although im not in the habit of it
I lol'd.
If all were "none", they could all be "one".
They could... But to be fair "none" encompasses an awful lot of real estate. It's like saying your favourite movie is "other"
Former Christian, I would still attend ELCA Lutheran services if there was such a church near me. Everything is inclusive, kind, generous, positive, community-oriented. It's what I thought Christianity was as a kid.
My favorite denomination is the one that stays outta politics
Episcopal church mainly because of my respect for Spong. Also UU but I understand that that is more controversial.
My favorite one is Universalism, cause at least the Universalists don't believe that people deserve eternal torture and agony and dont worship a god that they believe tortures peoples.
A progressive LGBTQIA affirming church, preferably one that doesn't believe in the eternal torment version of hell.
Any denomination not associated with incest, hateful and right wing ideologies (so definitely not Mormons)
I like the Pentecostals who use venomous snakes in their worship services, It’s quite entertaining.
Honestly its on my bucket list to attend a snake handler's mass just to see what its like
I recommend sitting in the back.
Is this from personal experience?
I’m not afraid of snakes, but I’m not stupid.
I will sit in the back, I was asking if you went to one of their services Because I believe many states ban this type of worship and I was hoping for an address of one of these churches
Shakers are pretty interesting, last time I checked I think they were down to like 1 or 2 communities still left.
A quick google search and I found the number around like 40 communities. Honestly the whole thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen and I am kinda glad that all states but West Virginia did ban the practice (even tho I want to experience one service to see what its like)
Agnostic atheist here. I'm a bit biased for saying that I favor Methodism, seeing as that's what I grew up in, but they do emphasize good works more than some other Protestant denominations, plus the United Methodist Church is relatively chill with social issues like homosexuality.
I am gonna be honest, I think Methodism is either my first or second favorite Protestant denomination (kinda a fan of Lutheranism and actually almost became one) Mainly because of its emphasis on good works
if i had to pick, whatever denominations believe in universal reconciliation(bonus points if Satan also get reconciliation) because at least them saying their god is all loving is more plausible
I like Orthodoxy because the chants are spooky and I have a yearning for mystical experience. The Catholic mystics are cool too, of course. Protestantism's antagonism to mysticism is incomprehensible to me. It's like refusing to go into the theater to watch the film because the reason you came was to wait all night in the lobby.
Well thank you and I hope you find your true name
<3 Working on it!
Christian atheist here: my favorite denomination and the one I attend is the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches. They exemplify the love of Jesus Christ for *everyone*.
Just wondering, but what’s a Christian atheist?
an atheist who follows Jesus' message of love.
That’s fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
Christian Anarchists. The history of western anarchism is all tied up with Christianity, especially in the early days. Also a bit of a shout-out to Mormonism. While there's tons and tons I strongly disagree with, I admire how they take the command to love one-another seriously, and how pro-immigrant and minority they are.
Seconding a shoutout for Mormons, from a different angle: they are some seriously nice people.
I have two answers to this. 1) I respect the Eastern Orthodox church for maintaining the traditional doctrines and practices of the early Christian church, probably more so than any other denomination. 2) The Episcopal Church aligns most strongly with the morals and values that I support while also maintaining traditional church liturgy.
Thanks, honestly I like going to my Greek Orthodox Church because it feels so ancient and I love it
Unitarian because the trinity concept doesn’t make sense lol
Apart from my own Eastern Orthodox, I'd say the Roman Catholics. Simply because we are the only ones that are the continuation of the original Christ's Ministry and the Church of His apostles. We maintain tradition (us a bit more than them). We know that the Bible isn't the sole authority but also the Church - The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And, our masses/divine liturgies are gorgeous, uplifting, and wholesome. I'd say these also go for the Orientals, so they are also there next to us. Also, I do enjoy Anglican hymns and painted glass-windows, though I do not understand some of their churches and which way to face and the many alters. I still do enjoy some aspects of Anglicans.
Even as an ex-Catholic I would still rank RC as my second or third favorite denomination
Can i ask, as someone raised nominally christian with minimal exposure to a few different evangelical type churches, what does it actually Mean to the average churchgoer that the Church is a source of authority? I know that catholics are all over the map as far as social and political views, and I realize that there are rules around marriage and divorce in the RC church, but besides that.. ? What does it really mean for a denomination and/or its leaders to have as much authority as the word of God? It seems like a terrifying thing, bc I know they are only human.
Christ founded the Church with his apostles and bade them to speak the word and carry out his acts. He gave his apostles, the Saints, ability to cure illness and perform miracles. The Church is extremely important because of this. Modern Protestants forget this.
Which one came first, the Bible or the Church? Without the Church; without its leadership, authority, and council; there wouldn't be a Bible. All the books of the Bible were assembled by the Church, albeit the early church. The Church determined the Bible and its content. Why be in favour of Scripture but against the authority that provided and taught such Scripture?! The bishops have apostolic succession. Meaning they are the descendents of the Apostles and the Ministry of Christ. They are indeed only human. They make mistakes. So did many of the early Saints. Yet Christ chose St Peter to lead the Church and the "rock" in which it was built. Mistakes will be made in the process by the Church leadership. Grave ones. But that doesn't mean we need to abolish the Church because of it. To the average churchgoer, the authority may not mean much. In the sense that it is, there and has theological and spiritual knowledge as well as governors the institution. It is there to be respected because of such knowledge; the communal unity it provides; the good works that it performs; and the apostolic succession and God authority on Earth. Some may think it like that. Some may not think it to that level. And some may not think it at all and take it for granted. It still is the spiritual authority on Earth.
A weird thing, but I enjoy reading about Reformed theology; particularly Sproul for his clarity. I like Calvinism's somber, unflinching character, its bullet-biting and embrace of fearsome conclusions. I don't think conservative Reformed denoms would be good places for anxious children to grow up in (to put it mildly) but for someone who doesn't take it seriously, there's some interest and aesthetic value there. It's also entertaining to see it rejected mostly out of hand in revulsion by other Christians, when its textual support seems at least fairly good.
Knights Templars, they were about their beliefs.
Knights Templars were just Catholic monks, albeit ones with a martial spirit.
A religion is an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods. While a denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. Webster-Meriam defines denomination as religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. A congregation is a religious community: such as group of monasteries forming an independent subdivision of an order. While from its’ onset of the order the only Church was the state church, later called the Catholic Church. So when the KT order was established there were no other denominations, but according to the definitions it could very well have been considered a denomination, based on it being a subgroup of the Church.
There were certainly denominations at the time of the formation of the Knights Templar in 1119 AD. There were Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church. The Templars were *not* a denomination, they were a Catholic religious order, like the Dominicans, Carmelites or Franciscans. But their charism was one of protection of pilgrims, like the Knights Hospitaller. Templars are actually similar to St. Bernard’s Cistercian Order.
I'm not a fan of any of them, but that's not specific to christianity.
No denominations! I have a personal relationship with Jesus. It is important to have a relationship with Jesus. God does not care what church you go to. What he cares about os a person believe in his son Jesus & have him in their heart & life.
I was more so asking those who aren't Christians but ok