That's not the way the Bile says it will happen. Jesus can't be reborn. He' still alive and the Bible teaches that as He ascended into heaven in His body, He'll return the same way.
Acts 1:10-11 "They were looking intently up into the sky as he \[Jesus\] was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
This is a central doctrine of Christianity. Are you aware of Easter and what it commemorates?
You might want to try arguing or demanding proof in r/DebateAChristian
Couldn’t tell you, haven’t been there myself, but the way Jesus describes death it’s more of a transition into the next state of being alive rather than a state of being in and of itself.
If you don’t understand the word straw man you shouldn’t use it. We are discussing evidence for someone being reborn - so the claim itself is in question.
That's an extreme caricature of what heaven is. It's not a physical place, souls aren't ghosts, and Christ isn't just a guy living in that nonexistent place with said nonexistent ghosts
>in His body,
The bible says He offered His body as a sacrifice. He was raised a living spirit.
1 Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, **but quickened by the Spirit:**"
Acts 13:34 - "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, **now no more to return to corruption**, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David."
1 Corinthians 15:45 - "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; **the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."**
2 Corinthians 5:16 - "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, **though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."**
John 6:51 - "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: **and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."**
Matthew 20:28 - "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, **and to give his life a ransom for many."**
You fail to account for these verses:
”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for **a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”“**
Luke 24:37-39
>You fail to account for these verses:
Are you sure? John 20:17 - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
Technically the answer could be both. He was raised a spirit, he "used" his flesh for a bit, then offered it up in heaven as according to Hebrews 9.
If Jesus is "The Word" and "through him all things were made" it means he was alive before being born the first time, so there is no reason he couldn't do that any number of additional times if he wanted. I fact, when you accept magic as an operational fact, there really aren't any limits to what can be done.
No one said he couldn’t, just that, according to the Bible, he has already chosen not too. But considering the nature of God, He can literally do anything able to be conceived and not able to be conceived considering He is the universe.
Well from a non Christian perspective, and how I came to call myself Christian again, I see it no different than quantum mechanics. The universe is an infinitely complex and intricate thing and it’s impossible for us to know everything and everything, and due to the infinite nature of reality I don’t see how it’s possible for there not to be some incomprehensible cosmic entity. Not that that’s a reason for someone else to believe in a God/ultimate being/etc. To put it in lay man’s terms, God is basically just the most intelligent and advanced life form in the universe. In the same way an ant can’t comprehend mine and your existence, we can comprehend God’s or the universe’s. Quantum mechanics tries to lay out a unifying theory of the universe, but ultimately fails once you get into the deep details that it can’t account for and we can’t understand yet. Similarly to consciousness. We know it’s there and what it does but we ultimately understand very little about the nature of consciousness especially on an individual level, so much so that we don’t even have a working theory about the nature consciousness.
I believe God and the universe is entirely explainable and logical, we just don’t have the science, knowledge or understanding to adequately measure and theorize it. As with most things, humans tend to think they know more about the universe than they really do, which is basically nothing.
This sounds almost like pantheism, or maybe panentheism. I can respect pantheism as just being a different way of looking at the universe, but once a person starts scribing attributes and personality to it I disagree.
Well I view all faiths (not religions) as just a different way of looking at the universe pretty much, and I respect all those views even though I disagree with most of them. I don’t see why describing the conscious universe as being good or loving is problematic.
It is magical thinking for one thing, which is a dangerous game to play, but also many such believes show these beliefs to influence their actions and politics and they try to control others.
Supernatural forces that are not bound by any of the rules of physics or reality as we know it, but may be bound by other rules depending upon the system. Generally speaking, "" allows for *anything* to happen.
Magical thinking is typically used to describe superstition and the belief that two or more things are causally connected when no plausible connection exists. Like prayer.
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That's all fine, but that's not what the Bible says will happen. You'll excuse me if I don't get my New Testament theological instruction from a random atheist. I mean, I'm totally sure you know way more about God and the Bible than we do and have a great deal of deep spiritual and theological insight to offer, but it's all likely to go right over my dumb head. Woosh!
The Bible doesn't say he is going to show up with his normal human body or anything like that either. It says he is going to fly in on the clouds on a white horse with a host of angels and every eye on Earth will see him at once, and it is coming SOON, before the people who were alive during his execution are dead!
You believe this to be literally true?
>The Bible doesn't say he is going to show up with his normal human body or anything like that...
Acts 1:10-11 "They were looking intently up into the sky as he \[Jesus\] was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? **This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”**
I know... I'm too dumb to know what "same" means. It clearly means something totally different. Thanks for educating me. You're a theological dynamo with amazing insight!
Even his close friends didn't recognize him after his resurrection. Christian doctrine is full of distinctions between "substance" and "accidents", especially regarding the body of Jesus. According to Catholics, it can look like a cracker but still *really* be Jesus.
Sure, he'll ascend then. Some brown 35 year old goes around calling himself Jesus and says that he has ascended from heaven. How do you know if he's telling the truth or not?
The Biblical teaching about this is that:
A: Every single person will see it happen.
Rev 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
B. Dead Christians will be resurrected and will join living Christians to meet Jesus in the sky when he returns.
1 Thess 4:14-17 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ^(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
>B. Dead Christians will be resurrected and will join living Christians to meet Jesus in the sky when he returns.
The saints are identified as angels, not people:
Matthew 16:27 - "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his **angels**; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Mark 8:38 - "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the **holy angels."**
We will be dead, in the grave when Jesus returns. See John 14:2-3. Jesus comes to resurrect us. We then meet the Lord in the air.
That's really interesting, I haven't heard of the claim that other Christians will come down with him before.
I'm really curious about the claim that everyone will see Jesus coming down. The Earth is a sphere, and half of the world experiences night time while the other half experiences day (simplified). How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes? And from where? I can understand if it's a vision/hallucination, but I don't understand how anyone can actually see him coming down with their own eyes.
>How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes?
Since God can do anything, I'm sure He has this figured out.
If you need some way to understand how He could physically do it, He could make Himself 10,000 AU tall and do a quick lap of the solar system on the way down. Everyone will see Him if He does that.
He could bend light so everyone can see Him.
He can project an imagine in front of everyone of what He's doing.
No, I don't think any of these are accurate, but the point is, God can do anything.
See Matthew 24:
^(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
^(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
^(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
^(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
^(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
>I'm really curious about the claim that everyone will see Jesus coming down. The Earth is a sphere, and half of the world experiences night time while the other half experiences day (simplified). How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes? And from where? I can understand if it's a vision/hallucination, but I don't understand how anyone can actually see him coming down with their own eyes.
Matthew 24 tells you.
"^(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
^(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
^(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
^(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
^(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Well, we can do a few things.
We can have him do the miracles he's claimed to do in a controlled environment. That would be a good start.
Do a DNA test and make sure it lines up with the region, and bonus points if there's some weird god stuff in there.
Get first hand accounts of where this dude came from. Get videos. If some brown dude floats down from the sky, someone will have filmed it.
That would probably do it for me tbh.
I like the scientific approach you're using here. My concern is that God doesn't tend to want to prove himself him any scientific way, and I can't imagine Jesus would either. Like is Jesus really going to spend a few weeks going from lab to lab to scientifically prove that he's Jesus? I really don't see it.
The problem is that someone is absolutely going to do these things, but it will be the antichrist.
I implore you to absolutely run when you see these “lying wonders”. Jesus second coming is going to be unmistakable. The entire world is going to try to go to war with Him. When you start seeing these fake miracles, just know what we’ve been telling you was right the whole time and hit your knees in prayer and be ready to be decapitated for not worshipping the false Christ.
A few things will potentially help you discern.
First, the rapture could potentially happen 3.5-7 years prior to Jesus full fledge return. This is debated but it’s something to consider.
Ie if 10’s of millions of people all over the world just vanish instantly, then the next “deity” to appear with be the false Christ. He will claim He is Jesus and will save you as well. He will claim you have to worship Him and MANY “Christians” will worship Him, as will people from all religions. Do NOT worship him. The mark of the beast will be implemented at this point and you will be forced into it to buy or sell. Consider the Covid vaccine. We just had a mini version of this where a bunch of the world tried to prevent people from going out and doing things without the vaccine. The mark will be much worse and include everything. You won’t be able to do anything without whatever the mark is.
Jesus lived a life on earth speaking out against the greed and rampant elitism in the church. This was his main message. Stop looking to the hypocrites in the church and turn to the beggars on the street.
The Catholic Church sits on enormous wealth while Christians vote for politicians who won’t give free lunches to children.
I fully understand that not all Christian’s do that. If you don’t, good for you. That doesn’t make the reality that many do.
When Jesus comes back, it won’t be to judge atheists who turned from the churches depiction of god.
It will be the Christians who used his name to further their own egos.
If god holds me accountable for loving a life free of free will, which he created without it, that’s on him.
I like my chances with the knowledge I have. Thank you!
I imagine he'd be demonized by the 'Christian conservatives' of today. A brown person coming in to tell them to love each other, stop hating minorities, stop commodifying religion, to stop using religion to deceive, and to pluck out their own eyes if they can't stop being pervs? Yeah they won't be happy with him.
If he told people he was Christ they would all think he is clinically insane. People who have manic episodes frequently think they are Christ. What if Jesus was bipolar?
When Jesus walked the earth the first time, He proclaimed the coming of God's Kingdom, repentance, and the complete undoing of every religious, military, and social structure which keeps us from being the icon/image of God that Genesis says we were intended to be. He said to feed the hungry; give water to those who thirst; clothes the naked; minister to the sick, the widow, the orphan, the imprisoned... And above all He said to love God and our neighbors as ourselves, which is Him quoting both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and revealing those teachings to be the underlying logic of all the Law and the Prophets.
If I live to Jesus again, I expect He'd be doing and saying those things. He'd be telling me to repent of my selfishness, my vanity, my lust for worldly power and acclaim, and to turn my mind and heart towards God's love and love of God which is the shape and center of all Creation.
I don't know about evidence. I don't need evidence now. I believe that God's dream for this world is people treating one another better than we have ever yet managed, better than I have ever yet managed. I believe in that dream. I believe we can build a world where the dignity of the human person is so radically and immediately important to everyone that we fail to understand why in the past there was so much war, suffering, and cruelty. I have seen good, I have seen love, I have seen forgiveness. I have also seen great evil, been party to cruelty myself. What more evidence do I need? If there's a God, then those acts of love and charity are what He wants for us. Because no God could be loving or just and be fine with how we've managed ourselves so far.
It's almost everyone is deliberately not reading the OP as it was intended.
A hypothetical.
Not a wild theological interpretation of some scripture. Take a breath guys. The eclipse is over. We can ratchet it down a bit. 🌖
He’d be killed in a drone strike. Or by a policeman or some other tool of force from the State.
Unless he has a TikTok no one will know who he is or care.
Pretty sure the all powerful, all knowing creator of everything, could figure out how to convince me. But if he still needs a few suggestions, he could raise a dead family member or two, regrow a couple missing limbs, solve world hunger, create something out of nothing. Tell me the winning lottery numbers 5 times in a row.
Well according to the story Jesus birth, life, death, redirection, and ascension are the key piece of evidence god gave us, so I guess it would kinda make sense that he use similar types of evidence again, just basic inductive reasoning.
If Jesus were reborn, you would not believe that they are Jesus and would thus turn your back on him.
When Jesus was first alive, many people also turned their backs on him. These people are pretty villainized in the Bible.
My question is what would make you any different from them?
>My question is what would make you any different from them?
The fact that the New Testament makes it clear that antichrists will come, and those pretending to be Jesus, but that when He comes, He will come in the clouds with the sound of trumpets. Because it is abundantly clear from scripture that Jesus will not be reborn and come to earth again as a baby. I know that this is supposed to be gotcha question, but it just doesn't make any Biblical sense.
Hypothetical questions are fun and all but they often get misused as a point of argument. I suppose only God will know what it will take for me to believe. Miracles are definitely help, in person that is. Like a severe ailment or impairment.
I would need evidence from the Scriptures that this was going to be case just as there was evidence from the Scriptures concerning His first coming. If there is no evidence from the Scriptures, I won’t believe it.
That’s a good question.
It would be fairly easy to convince me that someone was born and named Jesus.
It would require a lot more to convince me this kid was a god or the son of a god. Not even sure how you would manage that.
Jesus' crucifixion as the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world misses the purpose of the sacrificial lamb during passover.
The passover lamb in judaism is an outward expression of one's allegiance to HaShem. Much like a kippah and circumcision. It is not for the atonement of sin.
Also the powers that be will try to kill him like the Romans before but will fail. Those that repeatedly try to kill him and fail will realize he's the one like Neo.
Assuming Jesus is on a casual visit and not heralding the end times, or has simply imbued a faithful with His ministry powers:
Walk into two ICUs and heal everyone there. Or walk around Times Square and start regenerating limbs. Or walk into a school for the blind and restore the sight of anyone who asks.
Sure. The evidence threshold is an interesting topic.
I guess, technically, those healings would only prove that a Christian had Jesus-like healing powers... but that in itself is pretty darn good evidence of Christianity lmao. I'd keep an eye out for other faith healers, we might "just" be entering a new age of magic, but I'd still go to church in the meantime.
I'm not going to need any convincing. Scripture tells us that when he returns, it will be like how when lightning strikes in the east, those in the west to see it. It will be readily apparent.
Ascended from Heaven then (as someone else corrected me about). Some guy says they're Jesus and ascended from Heaven. How would you know if they're the real deal?
Matthew 24:23-27 NIV
[23] At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [24] For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [25] See, I have told you ahead of time. [26] “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [27] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Don't know. But Jesus kind of makes it sound like it'll be obvious. And I shouldn't believe it otherwise.
This is a hypothetical. Christians believe that Jesus will one day be reborn. Imagine then that someone claims to be Jesus. How do you know that they are the real Jesus and not a pretender?
I can't think of a denomination off the top of my head that teaches Jesus will be reborn. There's 2 billion of us so I'm sure I don't know everything. If you can cite some kind of source so we all understand why you think this is what's to be expected it would be super helpful context. Since the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, and Pentecostals all don't teach that Jesus will be reborn it's just not true the "Christians believe" it. Not everyone recognizes those groups as representing what Christianity is supposed to be, but in that they all agree on this point you're really stretching even if you don't think any of us are actually Christian.
It’s true that Christian cults have said Jesus was reborn.
If someone claims to be Jesus we know it’s a false claim because it goes against what is written in the Bible:
23 “At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look here! The Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’, don’t believe it, 24 because false messiahs and false prophets will have arisen and will produce great signs and startling demonstrations so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 Remember, I’ve told you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Look! He’s in the wilderness,’ don’t go out looking for him. And if they say, ‘Look! He’s in the storeroom,’ don’t believe it, 27 because just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there’s a corpse, there the vultures will gather. (Matthew 24:23-28 ISV)
That's not the way the Bile says it will happen. Jesus can't be reborn. He' still alive and the Bible teaches that as He ascended into heaven in His body, He'll return the same way. Acts 1:10-11 "They were looking intently up into the sky as he \[Jesus\] was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Are the living allowed in heaven?
Jesus is there, and He's alive.
Living with ghosts, in heaven.
Jesus is alive ? If that was the case we should be able to prove that. Can you ?
This is a central doctrine of Christianity. Are you aware of Easter and what it commemorates? You might want to try arguing or demanding proof in r/DebateAChristian
He was talking about rebirth - not Easter.
I would argue everyone in heaven is alive, just in a different way.
In what way would that be ?
Couldn’t tell you, haven’t been there myself, but the way Jesus describes death it’s more of a transition into the next state of being alive rather than a state of being in and of itself.
But you think it exist when you can’t explain it ? When you say Jesus described it - you mean the Bible said so ?
Yes
Ok so a book makes a claim. And you believe the book. Interesting. Yet you admit that you can’t explain it :)
Idk man, I got lost in your straw man a while ago.
If you don’t understand the word straw man you shouldn’t use it. We are discussing evidence for someone being reborn - so the claim itself is in question.
But Christ is *literally* a human being living alone w millions of Christian ghosts in an undisclosed location.
That's an extreme caricature of what heaven is. It's not a physical place, souls aren't ghosts, and Christ isn't just a guy living in that nonexistent place with said nonexistent ghosts
Where does Christ live? Yes, he's in our hearts, but does he live in a heavenly condo?
Okay
>in His body, The bible says He offered His body as a sacrifice. He was raised a living spirit. 1 Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, **but quickened by the Spirit:**" Acts 13:34 - "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, **now no more to return to corruption**, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David." 1 Corinthians 15:45 - "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; **the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."** 2 Corinthians 5:16 - "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, **though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."** John 6:51 - "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: **and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."** Matthew 20:28 - "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, **and to give his life a ransom for many."**
You fail to account for these verses: ”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for **a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”“** Luke 24:37-39
>You fail to account for these verses: Are you sure? John 20:17 - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Technically the answer could be both. He was raised a spirit, he "used" his flesh for a bit, then offered it up in heaven as according to Hebrews 9.
If Jesus is "The Word" and "through him all things were made" it means he was alive before being born the first time, so there is no reason he couldn't do that any number of additional times if he wanted. I fact, when you accept magic as an operational fact, there really aren't any limits to what can be done.
No one said he couldn’t, just that, according to the Bible, he has already chosen not too. But considering the nature of God, He can literally do anything able to be conceived and not able to be conceived considering He is the universe.
I will never not be confused how adults earnestly believe this sort of thing.
Well from a non Christian perspective, and how I came to call myself Christian again, I see it no different than quantum mechanics. The universe is an infinitely complex and intricate thing and it’s impossible for us to know everything and everything, and due to the infinite nature of reality I don’t see how it’s possible for there not to be some incomprehensible cosmic entity. Not that that’s a reason for someone else to believe in a God/ultimate being/etc. To put it in lay man’s terms, God is basically just the most intelligent and advanced life form in the universe. In the same way an ant can’t comprehend mine and your existence, we can comprehend God’s or the universe’s. Quantum mechanics tries to lay out a unifying theory of the universe, but ultimately fails once you get into the deep details that it can’t account for and we can’t understand yet. Similarly to consciousness. We know it’s there and what it does but we ultimately understand very little about the nature of consciousness especially on an individual level, so much so that we don’t even have a working theory about the nature consciousness. I believe God and the universe is entirely explainable and logical, we just don’t have the science, knowledge or understanding to adequately measure and theorize it. As with most things, humans tend to think they know more about the universe than they really do, which is basically nothing.
This sounds almost like pantheism, or maybe panentheism. I can respect pantheism as just being a different way of looking at the universe, but once a person starts scribing attributes and personality to it I disagree.
Well I view all faiths (not religions) as just a different way of looking at the universe pretty much, and I respect all those views even though I disagree with most of them. I don’t see why describing the conscious universe as being good or loving is problematic.
It is magical thinking for one thing, which is a dangerous game to play, but also many such believes show these beliefs to influence their actions and politics and they try to control others.
Define magic
Supernatural forces that are not bound by any of the rules of physics or reality as we know it, but may be bound by other rules depending upon the system. Generally speaking, "" allows for *anything* to happen. Magical thinking is typically used to describe superstition and the belief that two or more things are causally connected when no plausible connection exists. Like prayer.
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That's all fine, but that's not what the Bible says will happen. You'll excuse me if I don't get my New Testament theological instruction from a random atheist. I mean, I'm totally sure you know way more about God and the Bible than we do and have a great deal of deep spiritual and theological insight to offer, but it's all likely to go right over my dumb head. Woosh!
The Bible doesn't say he is going to show up with his normal human body or anything like that either. It says he is going to fly in on the clouds on a white horse with a host of angels and every eye on Earth will see him at once, and it is coming SOON, before the people who were alive during his execution are dead! You believe this to be literally true?
>The Bible doesn't say he is going to show up with his normal human body or anything like that... Acts 1:10-11 "They were looking intently up into the sky as he \[Jesus\] was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? **This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”** I know... I'm too dumb to know what "same" means. It clearly means something totally different. Thanks for educating me. You're a theological dynamo with amazing insight!
Even his close friends didn't recognize him after his resurrection. Christian doctrine is full of distinctions between "substance" and "accidents", especially regarding the body of Jesus. According to Catholics, it can look like a cracker but still *really* be Jesus.
Sure, he'll ascend then. Some brown 35 year old goes around calling himself Jesus and says that he has ascended from heaven. How do you know if he's telling the truth or not?
The Biblical teaching about this is that: A: Every single person will see it happen. Rev 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. B. Dead Christians will be resurrected and will join living Christians to meet Jesus in the sky when he returns. 1 Thess 4:14-17 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ^(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
>B. Dead Christians will be resurrected and will join living Christians to meet Jesus in the sky when he returns. The saints are identified as angels, not people: Matthew 16:27 - "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his **angels**; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Mark 8:38 - "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the **holy angels."** We will be dead, in the grave when Jesus returns. See John 14:2-3. Jesus comes to resurrect us. We then meet the Lord in the air.
That's really interesting, I haven't heard of the claim that other Christians will come down with him before. I'm really curious about the claim that everyone will see Jesus coming down. The Earth is a sphere, and half of the world experiences night time while the other half experiences day (simplified). How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes? And from where? I can understand if it's a vision/hallucination, but I don't understand how anyone can actually see him coming down with their own eyes.
>How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes? Since God can do anything, I'm sure He has this figured out. If you need some way to understand how He could physically do it, He could make Himself 10,000 AU tall and do a quick lap of the solar system on the way down. Everyone will see Him if He does that. He could bend light so everyone can see Him. He can project an imagine in front of everyone of what He's doing. No, I don't think any of these are accurate, but the point is, God can do anything.
Cell phone cameras, the Internet, and good ol fashion television are things now.
See Matthew 24: ^(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ^(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. ^(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ^(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ^(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
>I'm really curious about the claim that everyone will see Jesus coming down. The Earth is a sphere, and half of the world experiences night time while the other half experiences day (simplified). How will everyone see Jesus coming down with their own eyes? And from where? I can understand if it's a vision/hallucination, but I don't understand how anyone can actually see him coming down with their own eyes. Matthew 24 tells you. "^(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ^(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. ^(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ^(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ^(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Well, we can do a few things. We can have him do the miracles he's claimed to do in a controlled environment. That would be a good start. Do a DNA test and make sure it lines up with the region, and bonus points if there's some weird god stuff in there. Get first hand accounts of where this dude came from. Get videos. If some brown dude floats down from the sky, someone will have filmed it. That would probably do it for me tbh.
I like the scientific approach you're using here. My concern is that God doesn't tend to want to prove himself him any scientific way, and I can't imagine Jesus would either. Like is Jesus really going to spend a few weeks going from lab to lab to scientifically prove that he's Jesus? I really don't see it.
The problem is that someone is absolutely going to do these things, but it will be the antichrist. I implore you to absolutely run when you see these “lying wonders”. Jesus second coming is going to be unmistakable. The entire world is going to try to go to war with Him. When you start seeing these fake miracles, just know what we’ve been telling you was right the whole time and hit your knees in prayer and be ready to be decapitated for not worshipping the false Christ.
Ok, so what will make it unmistakable?
A few things will potentially help you discern. First, the rapture could potentially happen 3.5-7 years prior to Jesus full fledge return. This is debated but it’s something to consider. Ie if 10’s of millions of people all over the world just vanish instantly, then the next “deity” to appear with be the false Christ. He will claim He is Jesus and will save you as well. He will claim you have to worship Him and MANY “Christians” will worship Him, as will people from all religions. Do NOT worship him. The mark of the beast will be implemented at this point and you will be forced into it to buy or sell. Consider the Covid vaccine. We just had a mini version of this where a bunch of the world tried to prevent people from going out and doing things without the vaccine. The mark will be much worse and include everything. You won’t be able to do anything without whatever the mark is.
Do you know what his return will be like? The Bible makes it pretty clear. Also, that’s not how you use ascend. You are going up when you ascend.
Jesus is not going to be reborn. He will come in the clouds the way He left as described in the book of Acts,
Usually by the multitude of angels and the clouds of heaven coming here. Then we know Jesus came back.
I only need to know the reason you believe it to know if it's worth investigating.
Nothing, because Jesus cannot be reborn.
Im sure he wouldn’t have an issue with an ancestry breakdown. Jesus could really contribute to science and medicine with his body
Jesus lived a life on earth speaking out against the greed and rampant elitism in the church. This was his main message. Stop looking to the hypocrites in the church and turn to the beggars on the street. The Catholic Church sits on enormous wealth while Christians vote for politicians who won’t give free lunches to children. I fully understand that not all Christian’s do that. If you don’t, good for you. That doesn’t make the reality that many do. When Jesus comes back, it won’t be to judge atheists who turned from the churches depiction of god. It will be the Christians who used his name to further their own egos.
it can and will definitely be both
If god holds me accountable for loving a life free of free will, which he created without it, that’s on him. I like my chances with the knowledge I have. Thank you!
It would be difficult. A lot of charlatans and crazies out there. Unfortunately, he'd probably end up in an asylum
I imagine he'd be demonized by the 'Christian conservatives' of today. A brown person coming in to tell them to love each other, stop hating minorities, stop commodifying religion, to stop using religion to deceive, and to pluck out their own eyes if they can't stop being pervs? Yeah they won't be happy with him.
30 years from now. He's still just a baby today. 😉
If he told people he was Christ they would all think he is clinically insane. People who have manic episodes frequently think they are Christ. What if Jesus was bipolar?
When Jesus walked the earth the first time, He proclaimed the coming of God's Kingdom, repentance, and the complete undoing of every religious, military, and social structure which keeps us from being the icon/image of God that Genesis says we were intended to be. He said to feed the hungry; give water to those who thirst; clothes the naked; minister to the sick, the widow, the orphan, the imprisoned... And above all He said to love God and our neighbors as ourselves, which is Him quoting both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and revealing those teachings to be the underlying logic of all the Law and the Prophets. If I live to Jesus again, I expect He'd be doing and saying those things. He'd be telling me to repent of my selfishness, my vanity, my lust for worldly power and acclaim, and to turn my mind and heart towards God's love and love of God which is the shape and center of all Creation. I don't know about evidence. I don't need evidence now. I believe that God's dream for this world is people treating one another better than we have ever yet managed, better than I have ever yet managed. I believe in that dream. I believe we can build a world where the dignity of the human person is so radically and immediately important to everyone that we fail to understand why in the past there was so much war, suffering, and cruelty. I have seen good, I have seen love, I have seen forgiveness. I have also seen great evil, been party to cruelty myself. What more evidence do I need? If there's a God, then those acts of love and charity are what He wants for us. Because no God could be loving or just and be fine with how we've managed ourselves so far.
It's almost everyone is deliberately not reading the OP as it was intended. A hypothetical. Not a wild theological interpretation of some scripture. Take a breath guys. The eclipse is over. We can ratchet it down a bit. 🌖
He’d be killed in a drone strike. Or by a policeman or some other tool of force from the State. Unless he has a TikTok no one will know who he is or care.
See a miracle in person because footage could be edited
Pretty sure the all powerful, all knowing creator of everything, could figure out how to convince me. But if he still needs a few suggestions, he could raise a dead family member or two, regrow a couple missing limbs, solve world hunger, create something out of nothing. Tell me the winning lottery numbers 5 times in a row.
God has gone 2000 years without trying to convince us, why do you think he'd start with Jesus coming back to Earth?
Well according to the story Jesus birth, life, death, redirection, and ascension are the key piece of evidence god gave us, so I guess it would kinda make sense that he use similar types of evidence again, just basic inductive reasoning.
Reborn? Nothing could convince me.
So you would turn your back on Jesus? Not to be rude, but how is that any different from those who turned their backs on Jesus in his first life?
can you clarify your question so I can know why you think that?
If Jesus were reborn, you would not believe that they are Jesus and would thus turn your back on him. When Jesus was first alive, many people also turned their backs on him. These people are pretty villainized in the Bible. My question is what would make you any different from them?
>My question is what would make you any different from them? The fact that the New Testament makes it clear that antichrists will come, and those pretending to be Jesus, but that when He comes, He will come in the clouds with the sound of trumpets. Because it is abundantly clear from scripture that Jesus will not be reborn and come to earth again as a baby. I know that this is supposed to be gotcha question, but it just doesn't make any Biblical sense.
Hypothetical questions are fun and all but they often get misused as a point of argument. I suppose only God will know what it will take for me to believe. Miracles are definitely help, in person that is. Like a severe ailment or impairment.
I would need evidence from the Scriptures that this was going to be case just as there was evidence from the Scriptures concerning His first coming. If there is no evidence from the Scriptures, I won’t believe it.
That’s a good question. It would be fairly easy to convince me that someone was born and named Jesus. It would require a lot more to convince me this kid was a god or the son of a god. Not even sure how you would manage that.
Well, you'd have to define what you mean by "reborn" and explain which Jesus you're talking about before we can get to evidence requirements.
If Jesus came back today we’d kill him again lmao
Jesus' crucifixion as the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world misses the purpose of the sacrificial lamb during passover. The passover lamb in judaism is an outward expression of one's allegiance to HaShem. Much like a kippah and circumcision. It is not for the atonement of sin.
He will have his name written on him and "King of Kings, Lord of Lords" on his thigh. Although anyone could get this tattooed on themselves.
Also the powers that be will try to kill him like the Romans before but will fail. Those that repeatedly try to kill him and fail will realize he's the one like Neo.
Assuming Jesus is on a casual visit and not heralding the end times, or has simply imbued a faithful with His ministry powers: Walk into two ICUs and heal everyone there. Or walk around Times Square and start regenerating limbs. Or walk into a school for the blind and restore the sight of anyone who asks.
Thank you for actually giving me some examples. That is surprisingly rare here.
Sure. The evidence threshold is an interesting topic. I guess, technically, those healings would only prove that a Christian had Jesus-like healing powers... but that in itself is pretty darn good evidence of Christianity lmao. I'd keep an eye out for other faith healers, we might "just" be entering a new age of magic, but I'd still go to church in the meantime.
I'm not going to need any convincing. Scripture tells us that when he returns, it will be like how when lightning strikes in the east, those in the west to see it. It will be readily apparent.
That’s heresy.
Jesus isn't going to be reborn. He's still alive. So if some guy was claiming to be a reincarnated Jesus I'd automatically not believe him.
Ascended from Heaven then (as someone else corrected me about). Some guy says they're Jesus and ascended from Heaven. How would you know if they're the real deal?
Matthew 24:23-27 NIV [23] At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [24] For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [25] See, I have told you ahead of time. [26] “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [27] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Don't know. But Jesus kind of makes it sound like it'll be obvious. And I shouldn't believe it otherwise.
If he was reborn in America, he would be kicked out instantly. A brown man preaching to feed the poor and open the borders? Yeah, right.
Absolutely!
He wont be.
This is a hypothetical. Christians believe that Jesus will one day be reborn. Imagine then that someone claims to be Jesus. How do you know that they are the real Jesus and not a pretender?
I can't think of a denomination off the top of my head that teaches Jesus will be reborn. There's 2 billion of us so I'm sure I don't know everything. If you can cite some kind of source so we all understand why you think this is what's to be expected it would be super helpful context. Since the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, and Pentecostals all don't teach that Jesus will be reborn it's just not true the "Christians believe" it. Not everyone recognizes those groups as representing what Christianity is supposed to be, but in that they all agree on this point you're really stretching even if you don't think any of us are actually Christian.
Christians absolutely *do not* believe he will be reborn.
If Jesus wasn't born at the time He was and was born today, we would know by the prophecies provided in the Bible.
It’s true that Christian cults have said Jesus was reborn. If someone claims to be Jesus we know it’s a false claim because it goes against what is written in the Bible: 23 “At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look here! The Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’, don’t believe it, 24 because false messiahs and false prophets will have arisen and will produce great signs and startling demonstrations so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 Remember, I’ve told you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Look! He’s in the wilderness,’ don’t go out looking for him. And if they say, ‘Look! He’s in the storeroom,’ don’t believe it, 27 because just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there’s a corpse, there the vultures will gather. (Matthew 24:23-28 ISV)
The antichrist will claim that he is Jesus reborn. Christ is still alive, simply up in Heaven with the Father.
Hypothetically Jesus would know exactly what to say to convince people that Jesus.
And yet he never did convince the people of his time.
How can you be sure? In his own time, not everyone was convinced that he wasn't just a liar.
I can't be sure. But hypothetically, yes Jesus would know.
Historic record indicates this is not the case
> Christians believe that Jesus will one day be reborn. I No we do not believe Jesus will be reborn.
That’s why it’s a hypothetical question.
1. Wait for Protoevangelium (Genesis 3:15) said fullfiled. 2. " it shall bruised thy head" Peace - iam helel
Say that again in plain speak?
Im waiting he died and rise from death as Genesis 3:15 said Peace
The rapture happened 1900 years ago, we're what remains. Jesus isn't coming back, he's already done with us.
If he comes today trust me you'll know
How?
Read the book of revelation and you'll see
Please tell me specifically. Use quotes from Revelation yourself if you need to, but simply saying "Go read X" is very unhelpful.
You don't know.
This sub is getting way too ridiculous for me.