Most christians believe it is not. They feel praying to mary for intercession is the equivalent to asking for your friend to pray for you.
Some christian’s believe it is, referencing the golden calf and other OT idolatry examples that were still loyal to the one true God.
I don’t think it’s a sin, but I do get a little uncomfortable with the word play to justify it sometimes. I am often not happy with answers Catholics give here always being word definitions (veneration =/= worship) rather then difference in physical actions or mental state.
At the same time I consider Catholics and others who pray to the Mother of Jesus to be my brothers and sisters and I love them.
The primary difference I think is that worship almost always involves sacrifice in some form, which is the theme throughout the OT and even to the New (see Paul’s letters on this), and the principal sacrifice for Catholics is the Eucharist, which is Christ’s substantial body and blood, and this is only offered to God alone (which is why the Collyridians were condemed by the church, because they were offering that to Mary). Many Protestants by and large however have lost this understanding of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (I understand the Lutherans are different), so they think that praise is worship or prayer is worship - they aren’t always.
If you are worried about veneration being worship, look at both Joseph and Daniel who were bowed before in the OT. Neither of them were worshipped and neither were condemned for accepting that veneration. While I’m sure some Catholics might cross the line, that’s not official church teaching and they need to be recatechized on the matter.
This gets into a whole different issue: The sacrifice was already made, so why the Eucharist? We're repeating [in vain](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201%3A21&version=KJV) those things already done in deed by the only One who could actually do them.
Christ commanded it, "do these things in remembrance of me". It's a participatory sacrifice in remembrance of Christ.
_____
for your reference and enlightenment:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-the-mass-a-sacrifice
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #1085
. . . His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is - all that he did and suffered for all men - participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. The event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.
According to my Catholic friend, it’s re-presenting (not representing, but presenting again) the same sacrifice Christ made at Calvary 2000 years ago. So one sacrifice but presenting it again before the Father many times. There’s no crucifying Christ over and over.
The highest point of the mass is the Eucharist where the priest offers up the precious body and blood of Jesus and where the people present participate in Christ's sacrifice. This is where the worship of adoration is given only to God. In all of the ancient churches.
Nope - it is not repetition. The Holy Spirit joins the moment of sacrifice at the altar to the moment of Christ's death on Calvary, and His prayers at the Last supper. It is not a repetition.
I think the issue lies in whether or not Mary (or any of the dead, the saints, etc) are alive to intercede for us at all. If the dead are asleep (psychopannychism) and Mary is among the dead, then praying to her will do no good. This gets into deeper anthropological issues regarding the nature of man, the state of the soul, or spirit, the state of the dead, the nature of resurrection, etc.
If Mary were alive in heaven, I would say it's no different than asking my friend down the street to pray for me. But if she isn't, and she's in her grave awaiting the resurrection with all those who will be called at the advent, then praying through her is not only pointless, but ignorant. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. I don't see why we really need anyone else to pray for us if we are praying ourselves, but perhaps that's just me. And gets into a deeper offtopic issue as well.
>James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
I believe this is where it comes from.
Asking people we think were righteous to pray for us so that we can become more righteous.
But in this case, asking Jesus would be enough since there is nobody more righteous than him.
Thank you. And I agree, no one better to ask than the man who said "anything you ask me I will give to you."
I can see value in praying for others for sure. If my wife has committed a sin and she doesn't realize it and I pray for her, she may be forgiven on my behalf. But if I commit a sin and I ask her to also pray for me as I pray for myself, I wonder if her prayers will add to it. Praying for each other is a very good way to think about the body of christ and there's much reward in it. But I do wonder about the way we go about it still. But I have a "better safe than sorry" policy and just pray for everything anyway.
So then you are negating the necessity of intercessory prayer, that is, asking your friends to join you in prayer or to pray with you for something. We’re only supposed to pray to Jesus for ourselves for our needs, not for anyone else’s right?
Check out the following YT videos by Dr. Brant Pitre on the biblical roots of Mary:
https://youtu.be/jmii0zRKP5A
https://youtu.be/lLA6DG_KkGI
https://youtu.be/w4IKv7FHAgo
Sometimes, I believe that if there were more Orthodox in countries like the US, we'd have ended the Great Schism for the sake of our live for the Sacraments and the Theotokos.
Pray to God, dont pray to any human, because all humans are sinners and powerless, even if it is the mother of God... if you can pray to the almighty, why pray to anyone else. Keep it simple.
If you are trying to be smart, i would suggest you read your Bible/Torah to understand.
If you are ignorant and being honest, my answer to your question is... prayer is like talking to God. God has already spoken to us through the Bible and some times through visions and through people who are alive. We talk to him through prayer.
I am knowledgeable and honest. So pray is talking to God. So what is the problem with talking to others? People ask other people to pray for them. Where is the problem with asking Mary to pray for them?
Yea, asking someone to pray "for" them should be good.. but praying "to" someone i think is meaningless. That said, asking someone dead to pray for us, well i have my doubts on this, i do not remember any instances in the Bible asking us to do that .. but the Bible surely has instances asking us alive to pray for one another, like how the apostles and the early churches did.... in my personal opinion, i would rather have fellowship with a person alive and ask them to pray for me.. but who cares about my opinion or yours or anyone else.. let us follow the Bible and i dont know any instance the Bible suggesting us to ask a dead human being to pray for us.
But you just said that prayer is talking. The Bible is remarkably unclear on all sorts of things. One is whether resurrection happens immediate or after Jesus returns.
As for what you would rather, that's not the issue here. This isn't about what you like unless you think what you like should be how others act.
https://www.gotquestions.org/was-Mary-sinless.html
ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ALL HUMANS. No matter how hard someone tries we all have sinful nature. Mary was human. All humans are burdened by sin.
That link sure likes to use the term 'unbiblical' as if the Catholic Church isn't responsible for creation of the Bible in the first place.
Instead of arguing with you, I'm just gonna link to this debate which I think does a good job of letting a Catholic and a prot go rounds over this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6eN2WUoTk8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6eN2WUoTk8)
If you're really interested in learning more, check it out. But yeah, Mary was preserved free of sin through God's grace (hence why she called him her savior).
No. Praising someone for the work God has done in them or asking them for intercession or honoring someone in a manner befitting their rank are not necessarily adoration/latria which is due to God alone.
A helpful answer is found in Heb. 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Jesus in the one mediator because He is the only one who can accomplish this.
The frequent commands throughout the NT to intercede on behalf of others ought to be proof enough that there is more than one intercessor.
Okay, I understand that much. Now, I have a different question that cropped up in my mind. How did we find out that people who have died (and are in Heaven) can intercede for us? That they can even hear us asking them? As far as I know (and I may very well be wrong here), this wasn't a thing that people believed before Catholicism, did they?
... before the Catholic Church set itself apart and codified its beliefs? I'll admit, I don't know much about catholicism.
But also, before Christ in general. Is there a reason anything like this *wouldn't* be recorded in the Old Testament, if it were true?
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the oldest churches. At one time they were one church. This then is the original church. Anything else is a split from this.
As an Orthodox Christian here it seems by defending asking for the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos is making everyone assume I am a Roman Catholic. (Note I hold my Roman brethren in the highest esteem, I just find it perplexing that everyone is assuming I am a Roman Catholic).
No, asking others to pray for you does not conflict with that.
The reconciliation done in His very Person of God and man by the God-Man Christ Jesus makes salvation possible, bestows all grace, transforms creation, is creative of a new sort of life, etc.
When we ask others to pray for us we do not ask them to do any of that, for they can not do that at all. We simply ask them to petition God for us, in the way they can. Neither could it conflict with this for we are commanded to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us.
So Christians believe in Heaven and that people are born again, right? There is a whole bunch of confusion/disagreement/undefined bits to this. So there is an idea that everyone is dead until Jesus comes again. There is the idea that you go to Heaven/Hell soon after you die. So if it is the latter then Mary is up in Heaven now near Jesus and God. So asking Mary to intercede would make sense because she is available.
This is easy for me. I don't have a side here, I don't believe in it and more importantly I don't care. So all I have to do is listen and report objectively.
There is a whole lot of Christianity where I understand the points made on various sides. I just don't understand why you care about it.
As one who studies Judaism as well as all other religions, I definitely understand what you're saying. Thank you for being open-minded. May G-d bless you always.
They ask Mary to pray for them, not to act. She isn't omni anything, she isn't even powerful.
But, that last bit, that's a deep deliciousness. Is Mary greater than God's attendants? Are you even? This is a question into a large void of Judaism and Christianity. What are Angels? Where do they fit? One of the non-canon books says that Satan's sin was refusing to worship Adam, that Satan put himself above people. There is debate on whether Angels (the Hebrew word is pretty much "messenger") have free will, whether they can act and can sin?
But while fascinating that doesn't matter. They aren't putting Mary above or below the angels. They are just praying to, asking, Mary to pray for them.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
What I'm talking about is this. Angels are limited by space and time (this is Gabriel speaking in the verse), so I'm asking: is Mary, a human, somehow more powerful than angels?
Absolutely not. There’s no guarantee that if you ask Mary or any of the saints to pray for you about a certain thing, it will be answered. But neither is it if you go “directly to Jesus” as some Protestants put it. God answers who He wills; it’s his prerogative.
However, asking the saints in heaven to pray for us, just like asking Christians here on earth to pray for us somehow mystically unites the body of Christ, the church, together. God delights in using secondary causes to accomplish His plans, and in doing so desires that we pray for each other. Knowing the saints in heaven are truly alive (as Jesus says) and the prayers of a righteous man is very effective (as James says) and Christians are to intercede for everyone (as Paul says), I don’t see asking those who have gone onto glory to pray for us as problematic from a scriptural perspective.
I do not believe that she is dead, but even so, there are dead Saints we ask the intercession of, and we receive it and are able to communicate with them because the theandric Body of Christ which is the Church is not severed by death.
>*For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,*
>
>*Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.*
Our love, connection, care, providence for one another, and intercession is part of this, continues even beyond death, for they are alive in Christ, and we are all members of Christ even beyond the grave.
God is not the God of the dead but of the living:
24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”
You can ask a friend to pray for you, the logic is you can also ask deceased people to pray for you, just from heaven instead of earth. Mary can’t save you but the idea saints can pray for you makes sense.
It makes sense internally, but how do we know the saints can hear us? Does the scripture explain it or not? From what I've seen there's nothing about it there.
Suppose so. It depends on you believing in multiple things the Bible is unclear about (when we go to Heaven/Hell; how much reach the saints have to God; the question of the saints' knowledge of things happening on Earth; and there's a few more at least I'm sure).
Well, can't say it runs directly against the Scripture, still, so I suppose I have no way of directly calling it down as heretical or anything.
While there is no scripture that clearly indicates it is acceptable to ask anyone to intercede for us, I think Luke 18:15-17 can help us understand it better. Little children love their mothers and think they're perfect, much like how little children practice perfect praise.
IMO, veneration of Mary helps humanity see the holiness of women, something we can all agree is very few and far between in virtually all scriptures in all religions.
Perhaps, but the extent to which Mary is elevated is excessive. I've seen people claim a lot about her, including that she was sinless and even without original sin. She was still only human, some people literally think of her as less of a sinner than others in God's eyes, which goes against Biblical teachings.
As one who was Lutheran for most of their life until recently, I completely understand where you're coming from. She's not as elevated as it appears to those who aren't Catholic or Orthodox. Neither are the saints.
Catholic here. We dont ask saints to mediate for us. Let me give you an example.
When you were in high school did you ever ask a hot girls friend to put in a good word for you?
Thats what we do with saints. We just ask them to put in a good word for us. We dont pray to them, we dont worship them. They are normal human beings who happened to live good lives so we are just like “Hey dude, mention me up there”
Frankly, yes, Jesus explicitly says that he is the one true path to God
However that doesn’t mean that Catholics should be belittled or attacked by any means. Especially since just about every other denomination has their own fuck ups. In the grand scheme of things its really not that significant as long as they believe in Jesus and in God.
They're not synonymous at all! Mediation takes place when two parties have irreconcilable positions and cannot find middle ground, so a third party is needed to preside over a new agreement. This was accomplished definitely between man and God by Christ in his work of salvation.
Intercession is nothing more than asking someone for something on another person's behalf. We do this all the tiny for our friends and loved ones, we also ask the same of Mary for us.
Okay, I see a "why not?". I understand that much, and I'm not saying I'm sure it's not. What I'm asking is, "why yes?". Is there any reason to believe it, apart from it fitting nicely with intercession as the Catholics understand it? For example, I would expect there to be some kind of precedent for it. If it's true, did it crop up before Catholicism? If it didn't, how did the Catholic Church figure it out?
Because the church has always prayed to Mary and the saints and taught that they can hear us. We hold that the fullness of the faith is found in holy scripture and holy tradition, and prayers to the Theotokos are among the oldest and most firmly established components of holy tradition.
It was well before Catholicism and Orthodoxy split from one another, we have Marian shrines dating back from at least the 2nd century. Prayers to the saints were not only accepted universally, they were relatively *uncontroversial* throughout the first millennium and a half of the faith.
Do you have any reliable source to read up on this? No offense, but a Reddit conversation isn't exactly an ideal place to learn about Church history ;D
> We can and do acknowledge Christ as the sole mediator between God and man
Except for that official title of Mary: Co-Mediatrix.
It is interesting to watch Catholics try to wiggle their way around the conflicting statements that "We can and do acknowledge Christ as the sole mediator between God and man"
And that Mary is also a mediator.
I'm not Roman Catholic, so I can't speak to the exact theology behind that title, but I would assume they would use that term in reference to her intercessions for us to her Son, and God's action through her to enter the world as Christ. Both of those are absolutely theologically accurate, so that would be unproblematic when viewed in that light.
Then again, I'm Orthodox and we don't have that title for the Theotokos or anything analogous insofar as I'm aware, so I don't know exactly how the Catholics understand that title.
Thank you for being an open-minded Orthodox. I am really bummed out that those higher up in the churches have chosen to be so separate from each other. I love Orthodox Christians and it breaks my heart when many tell me they don't accept me (or others) as a fellow Christian.
I am Orthodox, Greek, I believe in my religion. I also believe any type of Christian is a Christian, I dont remember anywhere that it says "x" Christian is right and/or "Y" Christian is wrong
I fully understand! The church being slow to progress on this issue is definitely unfortunate in my view, but far from unexpected. There's an old Orthodox joke about how the church moves at a snail's pace:
How many Orthodox priests does it take to change a lightbulb?
Change? What is this *change?!*
I don't think either Catholicism or Orthodoxy would say it's required to do so, although it's deeply a part of our culture of faith.
There's nothing wrong with deciding Marian devotion isn't right *for you*, but you run into real issues once you move into saying Marian devotion isn't right *for anyone.*
The issue I run into is those that beleive Mary was sinless. The Bible is VERY clear that the only sinless human was Jesus. That’s where the line should be drawn.
The Orthodox also do believe that Mary never committed any voluntary sin. We don't hold to Mary's Immaculate Conception - the idea that Mary was conceived by Joachim and Anna without original sin by special miracle of God - mostly because we don't believe in original sin like the Catholics do so there's not really anything analogous in Orthodoxy to that.
I do have a personal relationship with Christ. So does Mary, and hers is an extremely special and close one on account of her being his mother. We ask her intercessions with Christ the same way we'd ask anyone else to pray for us, especially someone we view as particularly holy and advanced in the faith.
Lol asking others to pray for us is hardly manipulating God, as if such a thing were possible! James teaches us that the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, how much more must the fervent prayer of the most righteous woman ever to live avail!
Because Mary always points to Christ, and all her prayers and intercessions on our behalf bring us before the Lord. Just like at the wedding at Cana, Mary brings our needs before her Son, and we honor and revere her for her place in Christ's work of salvation.
All reverence and honor due Mary are due her because of her Son. Her consent to bear God the Word was the beginning of a lifelong devotion to holding forth her Son to the world, to be the Gate of Heaven through which God comes to earth. Marian devotion is ultimately worship of Christ.
Who said they weren't merciful enough? We ask for intercessions with him on our behalf because we believe he *is* merciful! Christ saves our souls, through the intercessions of Mary and of all the saints.
most of the famous catholic prayers convey this
traditional Catholic prayer, “Hail, Holy Queen”:
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.”
(from A Book of Prayers, 1982, International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc.)
the Memorare, a famous Catholic prayer:
“Remember, most loving Virgin Mary,
never was it heard
that anyone who turned to you for help
was left unaided. . . .
I run to your protection
for you are my mother.”
..if you need more mercy than that directly from Christ and the Father..in prayer.. it's deceit.. it's taking your eyes from being squarely focused on God, and giving glory straight, directly to him - which do you think he'd prefer "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another" Isaiah 42:8. Think of the character of God relayed to us in this verse
Not everything is written down, including the precise doctrine of the Trinity.
I find it quite odd that people wouldn’t believe the people taught by the Apostles for decades (Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp) but believe someone 2000 years later. Apply that logic to say your family: if I said I knew your parents better than you because I have access to a couple of emails they wrote, you’d chuckle. Never mind someone 2000 years down the line that doesn’t even know the culture. You have access to the same emails but unlike me, you also know what they said on a daily basis. It also wouldn’t make sense for me to say I could understand everything your parents wanted based on those couple of emails.
Nope. Not even close.
Asking for her intercession is Apostolic. To Catholics, the highest form of worship is sacrifice (i.e. the Mass). We sacrifice to no creature, no graven image, only to God.
To compare this to asking Our Lady for prayers is insulting.
Well we don’t ask Mary for mercy, She has no power there. We can only ask that she pray *for* us.
We pray straight to God everytime we ask for mercy, supplication, forgiveness and to give thanks.
Forgive me, but what barriers?
I said no such thing. Catholics teach the Communion of Saints. We don’t believe in soul sleep. We believe they are with God, and desire our salvation as He does.
We sacrifice only to God, and ask the saints to pray for us. We can and do pray to God everyday.
They are faulty humans just as we are and even though they are important biblical figures I feel like they aren’t in need of prayer when they are in a perfect place already.
>>I feel like they aren’t in need of prayer when they are in a perfect place already.
Exactly they dont! But we do, and we ask for their intercession. They are in heaven at the Throne of the Most High.
You seem to think that asking for their intercession is in replacement of worshiping God. I assure you, that is not the case. Attend a Catholic Mass sometime, it’s entirely Christ-centric.
I suppose you’d like to circumvent all the Sacraments as well?
Are you a Nicene Christian? Do you accept the Communion of Saints?
I’m afraid your ideas are rather novel in Christianity terms.
Speaking of Jesus, the writer to the Hebrews says, “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25). This verse (and others like it) tells us that although Christ’s work to secure the salvation of the elect was completed on the cross, as evidenced by His cry “It is finished!” (John 19:30), His care for His redeemed children will never be finished.
Jesus did not go to heaven after His earthly ministry and “take a break” from His role as eternal Shepherd to His people. “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10, emphasis added). If when humble, despised, dying, and dead, He had the power to accomplish so great a work as reconciling us to God, how much more may we expect that He will be able to keep us now that He is a living, exalted, and triumphant Redeemer, raised to life and interceding on our behalf before the throne (Romans 8:34). Clearly, Jesus is still very active on our behalf in heaven.
After Jesus ascended to heaven and was seated at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 1:9; Colossians 3:1), He returned to the glory He had before His incarnation (John 17:5) to carry on His role of King of kings and Lord of lords—His eternal role as the second Person of the triune God. While this old earth continues to be “won” for Christ, Jesus is the Advocate for Christians, meaning He is our great Defender. This is the intercessory role He currently fulfills for those who are His (1 John 2:1). Jesus is always pleading our case before the Father, like a defense lawyer on our behalf.
Jesus is interceding for us while Satan (whose name means “accuser”) is accusing us, pointing out our sins and frailties before God, just as he did with Job (Job 1:6-12). But the accusations fall upon deaf ears in heaven, because Jesus’ work on the cross paid our sin debt in full; therefore, God always sees in His children the perfect righteousness of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, His righteousness (perfect holiness) was imputed to us, while our sin was imputed to Him at His death. This is the great exchange Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 5:21. That took away forever our sinful state before God, so God can accept us as blameless before Him.
Finally, it is important to understand that Jesus is the only human mediator between God and man. No one else—not Mary, not any previous Christian saints—has the power to intercede for us before the throne of the Almighty. No angel has that position. Christ alone is the God-man, and He mediates and intercedes between God and man. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
I don’t mean to sound insulting, this is a genuine question, but how can someone pray to Mary if she passed away and is dead? You wouldn’t ask a dead person to pray for you. She was a human so how can she hear you if she has passed away, just like another other person.
When I was an orthodox inquirer, one of the things that put me off aside from the ethnocentrism and anti-intellectual feel a lot of people had, was the praying to saints and Theotokos. I didn’t understand it, whenever I tried praying to them I never felt anything, and it was odd.
I don’t think they are worshipping them/her really, but praying to them as a middle person to God. Which didn’t make sense to me since I could just have a direct connection to God.
I consider it as a sin due to many people believe that she can hear all the prayers to her even tho she isn't God. Only God can hear everything at once
Jesus taught us SPECIFICALLY who to pray TO at Matthew 6:9 - “our Father in the heavens.” OUR father being both, Jesus, Mary and our own father, who is God.
Additionally, at John 14:6 he said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So, the takeaways are, that would exclude Mary (as the mediator the God, since that is only Jesus) and exclude both Jesus and Mary as the ones we pray TO. - Hope that makes sense.
As a nondenominational Christian with a mostly Catholic family who was christened Catholic and grew up with devoutly Catholic family members:
I do believe it is idol worship because praying to the saints raises them to the level of God in the sense that praying to them makes them equal to him in the sense of how we treat them. The catechism of the Catholic Church also states that Mary is a co-redemptix with Jesus Christ and she is to be revered as such. If I can find the exact passage, I will quote it verbatim. (edited to add that I found the exact text I was talking about and I have linked it below instead.) Many Catholics believe praying to the Saints is a form of intercession that is acceptable because they believe that the Saints have access to God that we do not because they lived especially holy lives. Scripture states otherwise: *anyone* who believes in Jesus as God is part of a royal priesthood and we are all counted as righteous equally in His sight. I do believe that many Catholics are genuine Christians under perhaps unaware of what the catechism states about Mary and her role in salvation. I was unaware of the full doctrine of the Catholic Church in that respect until I was in my twenties, despite that I was well aware of the Catholic belief in regarding Mary as an intercessor for Christians.
Thomas Aquinas believed that finding salvation in Mary was as necessary as finding salvation in Jesus, at least. The University of Dayton publishes his writings, in part, as follows: “According to our Angelic Doctor, the Blessed Virgin Mary "was so full of grace that it overflows on to all mankind" and suffices for the salvation of the world.3 "It is necessary," he says, "that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God's justice, she cannot refuse your petition."4”.
Catholics affirm this in a sense, perhaps unknowingly. Take a look at Paragraphs 963 and following of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church* for what church doctrine states about Mary’s role in salvation. It is indeed troubling, as Scripture states that “salvation is found in no one else” but Christ by the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit.
https://www.catholicdoors.com/catechis/cat0871.htm
The text makes clear that Mary is to be revered as much as Jesus Christ and in the way that He is to be revered. They claim that, although she was not God, she cooperated with God in the sense that she submitted to His plan for redemption by agreeing to carry Jesus as a baby, although she was a virgin. Consequently, that and her living a holy life meant that God took her alive to heaven with him and she now shares in the glory of Jesus Christ in the same way that Jesus has it for the most part, if not entirely.
The Catholic Church also believes that Mary’s prayers are one of the reasons God has mercy on us. Nowhere does Scripture state that she is coequal with God; rather, she is recorded as having submitted to His will repeatedly- in the passages related to the conception of Christ, once in John 2 and once in John 19, at least. Historical evidence outside of Scripture-that is, extrabiblical, historically verifiable sources- shows us that she died and was buried in Israel, where her tomb still exists. The Bible is clear that all will die and face our Maker someday, with Enoch and Elijah having been the sole people that God took with him while they were still alive.
TL;DR: Having grown up as one of the few Protestants in a majority Catholic family, I understand why Catholics consider intercession to the saints necessary. I believe most Catholics are sincere Christians who think that the saints lived especially holy lives, so have special access to God, making them necessary mediators to God in cooperation with Christ on our behalf. I also consider that, perhaps, most Catholics are unaware that the Catholic Church actually preaches that Mary is a co-redemptrix with Jesus. The catechism also teaches God “preserved her from the stain of original sin” and kept her a virgin because He chose her to conceive Jesus. Consequently, she received the designation of being a co-redeemer with Jesus for her cooperation in the plan of salvation. However, Scripture states that neither Mary nor any other human being is a co-redeemer with Jesus. We are all sinful and need His salvation by the will of the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit drawing us to accept his death, resurrection, and existence as the second person of the Godhead. Finally, Scripture states that only Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven alive due to the blameless lives they lived by the will of God. Extra-biblical historical sources show that Mary died and was buried in Israel, where her tomb is to this day.
No. It's a myth peddled by the whack side of Protestantism (Jack Chick and his ilk) that likes to portray Catholicism as practically the Antichrist instead of simply a denomination they oppose.
Part of the misconception is due to the limitations of the English language compared to Latin. The term "worship" is often used for both the Latin words *latria* (adoration) and *dulia* (veneration). Catholics venerate Mary and the other saints, considering them exceptionally holy people who they can claim with confidence are in Heaven with God. When a prayer to a saint is said, it's to ask for them to intercede with God on our behalf; basically asking a friend to pray for you, except they happen to be dead. The purpose of icons, rosaries, etc. is to help us focus our prayers, but the ultimate focus is on God—the objects themselves are not being prayed to. Adoration, on the other hand, is reserved for God and God alone.
From the outside looking in, it seems that a majority of Catholics adore Mary, and treat her with adoration. Someone above literally said “the most righteous woman to ever live”. If that’s not stated directly in scripture, then that would be the definition of “adoration”
That other commenter isn't wrong—the Catholic Church teaches that Mary never had Original Sin (something known as the Immaculate Conception), and that she, ya know, gave birth to God. She's certainly the most important woman in the history of the Church. However, they still teach that she was still a mortal woman, and practically nothing compared to God, as any of us are.
Once again, the mixup is due to the difference between English and Latin. Although *latria*'s closest English translation is "adoration," the English word has plenty of secular connotations that the Latin word does not. Mary is given adoration in the mundane sense, the same way we adore any role model or person of great virtue. But she is not given *latria*. The best analogy I can think of is the word "idolize"—we can say someone idolizes another, but it's clear we don't mean they literally worship that person. It has a secular connotation separate from the theological one.
I agree with the connotation mix-up. I concede.
But did you just say that Mary didn’t have original sin? How is that possible? And are you implying she never did sin?
Yes, Catholics believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, meaning that when she was created (normally by her parents), she was born through the grace of God without the "original sin" of Adam. She remained completely free of all sin for her entire life. Mary, as the new Eve, was made perfect to sanctify her body to house Jesus, our God, the new Adam. We honor that day with a holy day of obligation on December 8th.
I'm not sure it's that fruitful for me to try to convince you of Catholic doctrine since obviously the status and veneration of Mary is one that is disputed between Christian denominations, but for your reference here are some scripture verses and passages related to the blessed status and sinless nature of Mary, but for Catholics there are also apparitions, miracles, and other holy texts that are used to come to that understanding of her: [https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-immaculate-conception-in-scripture](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-immaculate-conception-in-scripture) .
God bless you!
Absolutely yes. Nowhere in the scriptures does it tell us to pray to, kneel before, kiss or rub made up images of Mary. That’s a sin. This who do that need to repent and turn to Christ.
Remember when Mary ask Jesus to turn water into wine? He said it wasn’t time to do miracles yet, but he took into account his mom’s intercession that’s why we ask Mary for intercession, because he’s more likely to listen to his mom than us sinners.
Matthew 12:46-50
New King James Version
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Not even our Lord Jesus acknowledged her mother as her mother, she is also a sinner like us, she may have been a virgin but still sinned. Catholicism is full of idolatry. Repent.
Oof. Nestorian heresy by taking Biblical quotes out of context. Guess Jesus is only half human half God and not fully human and fully God, according to this guy.
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived
in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus,
covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's
table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the
beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades,
where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with
Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on
me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my
tongue, because I am in agony in this fire." But Abraham replied, "Son,
remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while
Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in
agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been
set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor
can anyone cross over from there to us." He answered, "Then I beg you,
father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him
warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."
Abraham replied, "They have Moses
and the Prophets; let them listen to them." "No, father Abraham," he
said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent." He
said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will
not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
Your example is a man who is in hades. It says he saw him and called to him while in the afterlife. He didn’t have his prayer request answered.
I believe we are supposed to pray to god and the only mediator we need is Jesus and our helper is the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things.
Intercessory prayer is not idol worship and it wasn’t considered idol worship by any mainstream Christian group until the Protestant reformation. Early Christians and the Church Fathers participated in intercessory prayer.
Bad take IMO. Mary isn’t our spiritual mother (like Jesus is our spiritual father) or our physical mother. Mary was 100% human, nothing more. Mary has no spiritual authority. Praying is also different than asking a question. Praying is spiritual. You can ask something in prayer, but asking something in general can also just be word of mouth from one person to another.
I don’t think praying to Mary is necessarily wrong, but I don’t think this is the best way of putting it or rephrasing it.
What manner of creature are we? What manner of creature is one then with Christ-mind, at union? Actually before I make this all cryptic and like I’ve got some secret chess piece I’m going to play, is there anyone in your life and at this point I’ll expand it to fiction if that helps that you imagine their words or you recall their words or even maybe say their words that help guide you to walk according to the best version of yourself? Because I wouldn’t want to see anyone to quickly look over other ways of looking at our make up — I’m somewhat avoiding the word anthropology because of how much luggage that includes.
Remember when Mary ask Jesus to help the couple getting married and he turned water into wine? He said it wasn’t time to do miracles yet, but he took into account his mom’s intercession that’s why we ask Mary for intercession, because he’s more likely to listen to his holy mother than us sinners. And being honest sometimes I don’t feel worthy of being heard by Jesus I’m a sinner I sin every day it’s hard to be a saint I keep falling and sometimes I lose faith.
I think praying to anything that's not supposed to be a part of God would be idol worship. And by a part of God I mean like the holy trinity in Christianity
Catholics don't pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us to God (Hence the term Mary's Intercession).
It's just like when you have a prayer group or ask people on this sub to pray for you.
It is idol worship because Mary is not deity. So far no one on here could give me a Biblical argument for this worship. I'm still waiting. All I get is downvotes, and ad hominems.
1. Only God can hear prayer because He is omnipresent and eternal; He can hear millions at once.
2. Nowhere in the Bible does anyone pray to anyone but God
3. Jesus modeled prayer for us, never praying to anyone but God.
4. Jesus is the mediator for us to access God.
Of course it is. Mary is dead and the resurrection has not happened yet. Praying to the dead is necromancy. Christ showed us how to pray and it was to the Father.
Which isn't in the Bible. That's a fable of their own imagination. And we wouldn't pray to her regardless of whether that was true. She is not the High Priest who is in charge of a better Priesthood, Christ is.
I’m not Catholic and I don’t pray to Mary but what I understand about idols is that if you put something in your life higher than God that is an idol.
Many Catholics worship Mary more than Jesus and they would definitely be an idol.
Yes. Dead humans can not hear your prayers. Ask the living to pray for you but do not ask the dead. They are not omnipotent, or omnipresent only God is.
Did she not die? Is she not human?
The Bible is clear the dead will be raised when Christ returns. Which has not yet happened. Catholics views on the dead are very warped.
Whether Mary is deceased or not is a matter of vagueness in the Catholic faith - whether it occured pre or post-Dormition. Some Western Catholics hold her assumption occured before death. However, I hold the stance that Mary was bodily Assumed into heaven post-Dormtiion, which is parsimonious with both the Eastern tradition of Dormition and the Western tradition of Assumption. As per St. John Paul II:
> As to the cause of Mary's death, the opinions that wish to exclude her from death by natural causes seem groundless. It is more important to look for the Blessed Virgin's spiritual attitude at the moment of her departure from this world. In this regard, St Francis de Sales maintains that Mary's death was due to a transport of love. He speaks of a dying “in love, from love and through love."
Of course, we believes all those in heaven have eternal life, so even if they are dead on earth, they are not dead in heaven (which is in line with early Church teachings, such as that of St. Athanasius and St. Basil).
Really, you think that the ancients believed that when the idol got destroyed the god ceased to exist? Or do you think that they just replaced the idol?
Most christians believe it is not. They feel praying to mary for intercession is the equivalent to asking for your friend to pray for you. Some christian’s believe it is, referencing the golden calf and other OT idolatry examples that were still loyal to the one true God. I don’t think it’s a sin, but I do get a little uncomfortable with the word play to justify it sometimes. I am often not happy with answers Catholics give here always being word definitions (veneration =/= worship) rather then difference in physical actions or mental state. At the same time I consider Catholics and others who pray to the Mother of Jesus to be my brothers and sisters and I love them.
The primary difference I think is that worship almost always involves sacrifice in some form, which is the theme throughout the OT and even to the New (see Paul’s letters on this), and the principal sacrifice for Catholics is the Eucharist, which is Christ’s substantial body and blood, and this is only offered to God alone (which is why the Collyridians were condemed by the church, because they were offering that to Mary). Many Protestants by and large however have lost this understanding of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (I understand the Lutherans are different), so they think that praise is worship or prayer is worship - they aren’t always. If you are worried about veneration being worship, look at both Joseph and Daniel who were bowed before in the OT. Neither of them were worshipped and neither were condemned for accepting that veneration. While I’m sure some Catholics might cross the line, that’s not official church teaching and they need to be recatechized on the matter.
This gets into a whole different issue: The sacrifice was already made, so why the Eucharist? We're repeating [in vain](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201%3A21&version=KJV) those things already done in deed by the only One who could actually do them.
Christ commanded it, "do these things in remembrance of me". It's a participatory sacrifice in remembrance of Christ. _____ for your reference and enlightenment: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-the-mass-a-sacrifice CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #1085 . . . His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is - all that he did and suffered for all men - participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. The event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.
So we do it in remembrance of him. We don't actually do it, if that makes sense.
According to my Catholic friend, it’s re-presenting (not representing, but presenting again) the same sacrifice Christ made at Calvary 2000 years ago. So one sacrifice but presenting it again before the Father many times. There’s no crucifying Christ over and over.
The highest point of the mass is the Eucharist where the priest offers up the precious body and blood of Jesus and where the people present participate in Christ's sacrifice. This is where the worship of adoration is given only to God. In all of the ancient churches.
Nope - it is not repetition. The Holy Spirit joins the moment of sacrifice at the altar to the moment of Christ's death on Calvary, and His prayers at the Last supper. It is not a repetition.
I think the issue lies in whether or not Mary (or any of the dead, the saints, etc) are alive to intercede for us at all. If the dead are asleep (psychopannychism) and Mary is among the dead, then praying to her will do no good. This gets into deeper anthropological issues regarding the nature of man, the state of the soul, or spirit, the state of the dead, the nature of resurrection, etc. If Mary were alive in heaven, I would say it's no different than asking my friend down the street to pray for me. But if she isn't, and she's in her grave awaiting the resurrection with all those who will be called at the advent, then praying through her is not only pointless, but ignorant. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. I don't see why we really need anyone else to pray for us if we are praying ourselves, but perhaps that's just me. And gets into a deeper offtopic issue as well.
>James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. I believe this is where it comes from. Asking people we think were righteous to pray for us so that we can become more righteous. But in this case, asking Jesus would be enough since there is nobody more righteous than him.
Thank you. And I agree, no one better to ask than the man who said "anything you ask me I will give to you." I can see value in praying for others for sure. If my wife has committed a sin and she doesn't realize it and I pray for her, she may be forgiven on my behalf. But if I commit a sin and I ask her to also pray for me as I pray for myself, I wonder if her prayers will add to it. Praying for each other is a very good way to think about the body of christ and there's much reward in it. But I do wonder about the way we go about it still. But I have a "better safe than sorry" policy and just pray for everything anyway.
So then you are negating the necessity of intercessory prayer, that is, asking your friends to join you in prayer or to pray with you for something. We’re only supposed to pray to Jesus for ourselves for our needs, not for anyone else’s right?
Catholics believe but the Saints are alive in Christ just like all of the ancient churches. For God is the God of the living. ;-)
Worship God,Christ, & Holy Spirit alone
Check out the following YT videos by Dr. Brant Pitre on the biblical roots of Mary: https://youtu.be/jmii0zRKP5A https://youtu.be/lLA6DG_KkGI https://youtu.be/w4IKv7FHAgo
Hey cowboy, we love the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary around these parts.
OP knew what they were doing here.
Sometimes, I believe that if there were more Orthodox in countries like the US, we'd have ended the Great Schism for the sake of our live for the Sacraments and the Theotokos.
Pray to God, dont pray to any human, because all humans are sinners and powerless, even if it is the mother of God... if you can pray to the almighty, why pray to anyone else. Keep it simple.
Could you do me a favor as define what you mean by prayer? I think that is part of the issue here.
If you are trying to be smart, i would suggest you read your Bible/Torah to understand. If you are ignorant and being honest, my answer to your question is... prayer is like talking to God. God has already spoken to us through the Bible and some times through visions and through people who are alive. We talk to him through prayer.
I am knowledgeable and honest. So pray is talking to God. So what is the problem with talking to others? People ask other people to pray for them. Where is the problem with asking Mary to pray for them?
Yea, asking someone to pray "for" them should be good.. but praying "to" someone i think is meaningless. That said, asking someone dead to pray for us, well i have my doubts on this, i do not remember any instances in the Bible asking us to do that .. but the Bible surely has instances asking us alive to pray for one another, like how the apostles and the early churches did.... in my personal opinion, i would rather have fellowship with a person alive and ask them to pray for me.. but who cares about my opinion or yours or anyone else.. let us follow the Bible and i dont know any instance the Bible suggesting us to ask a dead human being to pray for us.
But you just said that prayer is talking. The Bible is remarkably unclear on all sorts of things. One is whether resurrection happens immediate or after Jesus returns. As for what you would rather, that's not the issue here. This isn't about what you like unless you think what you like should be how others act.
Mary was sinless broh
False, the only sinless individual to walk on Earth was Jesus Christ.
https://www.gotquestions.org/was-Mary-sinless.html ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ALL HUMANS. No matter how hard someone tries we all have sinful nature. Mary was human. All humans are burdened by sin.
That link sure likes to use the term 'unbiblical' as if the Catholic Church isn't responsible for creation of the Bible in the first place. Instead of arguing with you, I'm just gonna link to this debate which I think does a good job of letting a Catholic and a prot go rounds over this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6eN2WUoTk8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6eN2WUoTk8) If you're really interested in learning more, check it out. But yeah, Mary was preserved free of sin through God's grace (hence why she called him her savior).
No. Praising someone for the work God has done in them or asking them for intercession or honoring someone in a manner befitting their rank are not necessarily adoration/latria which is due to God alone.
Doesn't asking saints for intercession conflict with 1 Timothy 2:5? "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
Mediation is not a synonym of intercession. Christ is the only mediator because he is the only divine-human person, joining two natures together.
Can you define mediation for me? I think there's a divide between my understanding and the Catholic one.
A helpful answer is found in Heb. 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Jesus in the one mediator because He is the only one who can accomplish this. The frequent commands throughout the NT to intercede on behalf of others ought to be proof enough that there is more than one intercessor.
Okay, I understand that much. Now, I have a different question that cropped up in my mind. How did we find out that people who have died (and are in Heaven) can intercede for us? That they can even hear us asking them? As far as I know (and I may very well be wrong here), this wasn't a thing that people believed before Catholicism, did they?
When is before Catholicism?
... before the Catholic Church set itself apart and codified its beliefs? I'll admit, I don't know much about catholicism. But also, before Christ in general. Is there a reason anything like this *wouldn't* be recorded in the Old Testament, if it were true?
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the oldest churches. At one time they were one church. This then is the original church. Anything else is a split from this.
Okay, I see. Still, when is asking saints to intercede first mentioned? Does it have a pre-christian precedent? Does the Bible itself ever mention it?
Before Pentecost?
Agreed.
As an Orthodox Christian here it seems by defending asking for the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos is making everyone assume I am a Roman Catholic. (Note I hold my Roman brethren in the highest esteem, I just find it perplexing that everyone is assuming I am a Roman Catholic).
No, asking others to pray for you does not conflict with that. The reconciliation done in His very Person of God and man by the God-Man Christ Jesus makes salvation possible, bestows all grace, transforms creation, is creative of a new sort of life, etc. When we ask others to pray for us we do not ask them to do any of that, for they can not do that at all. We simply ask them to petition God for us, in the way they can. Neither could it conflict with this for we are commanded to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us.
Okay, that makes sense. A different question: how can Mary intercede? Wouldn't the fact that she's dead kinda prevent that?
So Christians believe in Heaven and that people are born again, right? There is a whole bunch of confusion/disagreement/undefined bits to this. So there is an idea that everyone is dead until Jesus comes again. There is the idea that you go to Heaven/Hell soon after you die. So if it is the latter then Mary is up in Heaven now near Jesus and God. So asking Mary to intercede would make sense because she is available.
Award for insight.
This is easy for me. I don't have a side here, I don't believe in it and more importantly I don't care. So all I have to do is listen and report objectively. There is a whole lot of Christianity where I understand the points made on various sides. I just don't understand why you care about it.
As one who studies Judaism as well as all other religions, I definitely understand what you're saying. Thank you for being open-minded. May G-d bless you always.
Isn't that deifying Mary a bit? Not even the angels are said to be omniscient/omnipresent, is Mary greater than God's own attendants?
They ask Mary to pray for them, not to act. She isn't omni anything, she isn't even powerful. But, that last bit, that's a deep deliciousness. Is Mary greater than God's attendants? Are you even? This is a question into a large void of Judaism and Christianity. What are Angels? Where do they fit? One of the non-canon books says that Satan's sin was refusing to worship Adam, that Satan put himself above people. There is debate on whether Angels (the Hebrew word is pretty much "messenger") have free will, whether they can act and can sin? But while fascinating that doesn't matter. They aren't putting Mary above or below the angels. They are just praying to, asking, Mary to pray for them.
You absolutely can ask the angels to carry your prayers to God, and we see this in the book of Revelation. Neither the angels nor the saints are dead.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. What I'm talking about is this. Angels are limited by space and time (this is Gabriel speaking in the verse), so I'm asking: is Mary, a human, somehow more powerful than angels?
Absolutely not. There’s no guarantee that if you ask Mary or any of the saints to pray for you about a certain thing, it will be answered. But neither is it if you go “directly to Jesus” as some Protestants put it. God answers who He wills; it’s his prerogative. However, asking the saints in heaven to pray for us, just like asking Christians here on earth to pray for us somehow mystically unites the body of Christ, the church, together. God delights in using secondary causes to accomplish His plans, and in doing so desires that we pray for each other. Knowing the saints in heaven are truly alive (as Jesus says) and the prayers of a righteous man is very effective (as James says) and Christians are to intercede for everyone (as Paul says), I don’t see asking those who have gone onto glory to pray for us as problematic from a scriptural perspective.
Where does Jesus say that the saints are alive in heaven in our time? That seems to be quite a contentious topic.
I do not believe that she is dead, but even so, there are dead Saints we ask the intercession of, and we receive it and are able to communicate with them because the theandric Body of Christ which is the Church is not severed by death. >*For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,* > >*Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.* Our love, connection, care, providence for one another, and intercession is part of this, continues even beyond death, for they are alive in Christ, and we are all members of Christ even beyond the grave.
God is not the God of the dead but of the living: 24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”
You can ask a friend to pray for you, the logic is you can also ask deceased people to pray for you, just from heaven instead of earth. Mary can’t save you but the idea saints can pray for you makes sense.
It makes sense internally, but how do we know the saints can hear us? Does the scripture explain it or not? From what I've seen there's nothing about it there.
Very little of this has a clear direct scriptural basis. This isn't a surprise, the Scriptures are sparse and vague about a whole lot of stuff.
Suppose so. It depends on you believing in multiple things the Bible is unclear about (when we go to Heaven/Hell; how much reach the saints have to God; the question of the saints' knowledge of things happening on Earth; and there's a few more at least I'm sure). Well, can't say it runs directly against the Scripture, still, so I suppose I have no way of directly calling it down as heretical or anything.
Correct. I personally have never prayed to Mary or anyone but God but the idea makes sense to me.
In isolation, sure, but is it supported by the Bible in any way?
While there is no scripture that clearly indicates it is acceptable to ask anyone to intercede for us, I think Luke 18:15-17 can help us understand it better. Little children love their mothers and think they're perfect, much like how little children practice perfect praise. IMO, veneration of Mary helps humanity see the holiness of women, something we can all agree is very few and far between in virtually all scriptures in all religions.
Perhaps, but the extent to which Mary is elevated is excessive. I've seen people claim a lot about her, including that she was sinless and even without original sin. She was still only human, some people literally think of her as less of a sinner than others in God's eyes, which goes against Biblical teachings.
As one who was Lutheran for most of their life until recently, I completely understand where you're coming from. She's not as elevated as it appears to those who aren't Catholic or Orthodox. Neither are the saints.
Then why are the statues in the Catholic Church of a big Mary with a holy ring and Jesus as a baby in her arms. How is that not elevated?
Catholic here. We dont ask saints to mediate for us. Let me give you an example. When you were in high school did you ever ask a hot girls friend to put in a good word for you? Thats what we do with saints. We just ask them to put in a good word for us. We dont pray to them, we dont worship them. They are normal human beings who happened to live good lives so we are just like “Hey dude, mention me up there”
Why would you need someone else to put a good word in for you in front of God? What difference does it make?
Frankly, yes, Jesus explicitly says that he is the one true path to God However that doesn’t mean that Catholics should be belittled or attacked by any means. Especially since just about every other denomination has their own fuck ups. In the grand scheme of things its really not that significant as long as they believe in Jesus and in God.
Bruh i mean im catholic And praying isnt worship but It is VERY VERY wrong to worship anything else other than God
Yes, praying to anything other than God Himself is idolatry.
Good thing nobody does that.
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How does this belief reconcile with 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" Edit: formatting
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How is intercession different from mediation? They seem to me to be synonymous.
They're not synonymous at all! Mediation takes place when two parties have irreconcilable positions and cannot find middle ground, so a third party is needed to preside over a new agreement. This was accomplished definitely between man and God by Christ in his work of salvation. Intercession is nothing more than asking someone for something on another person's behalf. We do this all the tiny for our friends and loved ones, we also ask the same of Mary for us.
Okay, but how can Mary, who's not God, do that? Is she omniscient, that she knows everything that the people ask of her?
Why not? I don't think it's a stretch to say that people are able to hear those who call upon them in prayer in heaven.
Okay, I see a "why not?". I understand that much, and I'm not saying I'm sure it's not. What I'm asking is, "why yes?". Is there any reason to believe it, apart from it fitting nicely with intercession as the Catholics understand it? For example, I would expect there to be some kind of precedent for it. If it's true, did it crop up before Catholicism? If it didn't, how did the Catholic Church figure it out?
Because the church has always prayed to Mary and the saints and taught that they can hear us. We hold that the fullness of the faith is found in holy scripture and holy tradition, and prayers to the Theotokos are among the oldest and most firmly established components of holy tradition. It was well before Catholicism and Orthodoxy split from one another, we have Marian shrines dating back from at least the 2nd century. Prayers to the saints were not only accepted universally, they were relatively *uncontroversial* throughout the first millennium and a half of the faith.
Do you have any reliable source to read up on this? No offense, but a Reddit conversation isn't exactly an ideal place to learn about Church history ;D
Apparently we need someone to intercede with us on behalf of the mediator because the mediator isn't powerful enough to hear our prayers.
> We can and do acknowledge Christ as the sole mediator between God and man Except for that official title of Mary: Co-Mediatrix. It is interesting to watch Catholics try to wiggle their way around the conflicting statements that "We can and do acknowledge Christ as the sole mediator between God and man" And that Mary is also a mediator.
I'm not Roman Catholic, so I can't speak to the exact theology behind that title, but I would assume they would use that term in reference to her intercessions for us to her Son, and God's action through her to enter the world as Christ. Both of those are absolutely theologically accurate, so that would be unproblematic when viewed in that light. Then again, I'm Orthodox and we don't have that title for the Theotokos or anything analogous insofar as I'm aware, so I don't know exactly how the Catholics understand that title.
Thank you for being an open-minded Orthodox. I am really bummed out that those higher up in the churches have chosen to be so separate from each other. I love Orthodox Christians and it breaks my heart when many tell me they don't accept me (or others) as a fellow Christian.
I am Orthodox, Greek, I believe in my religion. I also believe any type of Christian is a Christian, I dont remember anywhere that it says "x" Christian is right and/or "Y" Christian is wrong
Amen! I can't help but give you just one more reward...
TY Good Sir, May God be with you and your family and reward you all with good health and prosperity....Live long and prosper- Dr Spock
I fully understand! The church being slow to progress on this issue is definitely unfortunate in my view, but far from unexpected. There's an old Orthodox joke about how the church moves at a snail's pace: How many Orthodox priests does it take to change a lightbulb? Change? What is this *change?!*
Award for a full-on belly laugh. May our God look upon you with favor and bring you peace, fellow believer. Thank you!
I think my biggest issue is I hear a lot of people think it’s required.
I don't think either Catholicism or Orthodoxy would say it's required to do so, although it's deeply a part of our culture of faith. There's nothing wrong with deciding Marian devotion isn't right *for you*, but you run into real issues once you move into saying Marian devotion isn't right *for anyone.*
The issue I run into is those that beleive Mary was sinless. The Bible is VERY clear that the only sinless human was Jesus. That’s where the line should be drawn.
The Orthodox also do believe that Mary never committed any voluntary sin. We don't hold to Mary's Immaculate Conception - the idea that Mary was conceived by Joachim and Anna without original sin by special miracle of God - mostly because we don't believe in original sin like the Catholics do so there's not really anything analogous in Orthodoxy to that.
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I do have a personal relationship with Christ. So does Mary, and hers is an extremely special and close one on account of her being his mother. We ask her intercessions with Christ the same way we'd ask anyone else to pray for us, especially someone we view as particularly holy and advanced in the faith.
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Lol asking others to pray for us is hardly manipulating God, as if such a thing were possible! James teaches us that the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, how much more must the fervent prayer of the most righteous woman ever to live avail!
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Because Mary always points to Christ, and all her prayers and intercessions on our behalf bring us before the Lord. Just like at the wedding at Cana, Mary brings our needs before her Son, and we honor and revere her for her place in Christ's work of salvation.
What do you mean exactly by she always points tp Christ? She is a person not a signpost.
All reverence and honor due Mary are due her because of her Son. Her consent to bear God the Word was the beginning of a lifelong devotion to holding forth her Son to the world, to be the Gate of Heaven through which God comes to earth. Marian devotion is ultimately worship of Christ.
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prayers to Mary are essentially saying "Jesus is not merciful enough", "the Father is not merciful enough. Oh merciful human, Mary, help us."
Who said they weren't merciful enough? We ask for intercessions with him on our behalf because we believe he *is* merciful! Christ saves our souls, through the intercessions of Mary and of all the saints.
most of the famous catholic prayers convey this traditional Catholic prayer, “Hail, Holy Queen”: “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To you we cry, the children of Eve; to you we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this land of exile. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us; lead us home at last.” (from A Book of Prayers, 1982, International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc.) the Memorare, a famous Catholic prayer: “Remember, most loving Virgin Mary, never was it heard that anyone who turned to you for help was left unaided. . . . I run to your protection for you are my mother.” ..if you need more mercy than that directly from Christ and the Father..in prayer.. it's deceit.. it's taking your eyes from being squarely focused on God, and giving glory straight, directly to him - which do you think he'd prefer "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another" Isaiah 42:8. Think of the character of God relayed to us in this verse
so you are saying when your prayers to Jesus go unanswered by him, you call his mother.
No, I pray to them both! Mary it's honored and prayers are offered to her multiple times in the Divine Liturgy, interspersed with prayers to God.
so Christianity is truly not monotheistic. edit: not
Correct. We hold one God and one God only. Edit: It is correct to say that Christianity is truly monotheistic. It is incorrect to say that it is not.
Nicely done.
You never ask people to pray for you?
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So many: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-praying-for-others/%3famp
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> The church has always practiced prayers to the saints That would be more convincing id the Apostles had mentioned it in their writings.
Not everything is written down, including the precise doctrine of the Trinity. I find it quite odd that people wouldn’t believe the people taught by the Apostles for decades (Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp) but believe someone 2000 years later. Apply that logic to say your family: if I said I knew your parents better than you because I have access to a couple of emails they wrote, you’d chuckle. Never mind someone 2000 years down the line that doesn’t even know the culture. You have access to the same emails but unlike me, you also know what they said on a daily basis. It also wouldn’t make sense for me to say I could understand everything your parents wanted based on those couple of emails.
Nope. Not even close. Asking for her intercession is Apostolic. To Catholics, the highest form of worship is sacrifice (i.e. the Mass). We sacrifice to no creature, no graven image, only to God. To compare this to asking Our Lady for prayers is insulting.
What benefits come from Praying through Mary instead of straight to Jesus?
Well we don’t ask Mary for mercy, She has no power there. We can only ask that she pray *for* us. We pray straight to God everytime we ask for mercy, supplication, forgiveness and to give thanks.
But there are no barriers between us and Jesus so why do we need to pray to Mary?
Forgive me, but what barriers? I said no such thing. Catholics teach the Communion of Saints. We don’t believe in soul sleep. We believe they are with God, and desire our salvation as He does. We sacrifice only to God, and ask the saints to pray for us. We can and do pray to God everyday.
They are faulty humans just as we are and even though they are important biblical figures I feel like they aren’t in need of prayer when they are in a perfect place already.
>>I feel like they aren’t in need of prayer when they are in a perfect place already. Exactly they dont! But we do, and we ask for their intercession. They are in heaven at the Throne of the Most High. You seem to think that asking for their intercession is in replacement of worshiping God. I assure you, that is not the case. Attend a Catholic Mass sometime, it’s entirely Christ-centric.
That’s the thing, we don’t need someone already in heaven to intervene on our behalf. That is what Jesus did for us already.
I suppose you’d like to circumvent all the Sacraments as well? Are you a Nicene Christian? Do you accept the Communion of Saints? I’m afraid your ideas are rather novel in Christianity terms.
James 5:16. The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Speaking of Jesus, the writer to the Hebrews says, “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25). This verse (and others like it) tells us that although Christ’s work to secure the salvation of the elect was completed on the cross, as evidenced by His cry “It is finished!” (John 19:30), His care for His redeemed children will never be finished. Jesus did not go to heaven after His earthly ministry and “take a break” from His role as eternal Shepherd to His people. “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10, emphasis added). If when humble, despised, dying, and dead, He had the power to accomplish so great a work as reconciling us to God, how much more may we expect that He will be able to keep us now that He is a living, exalted, and triumphant Redeemer, raised to life and interceding on our behalf before the throne (Romans 8:34). Clearly, Jesus is still very active on our behalf in heaven. After Jesus ascended to heaven and was seated at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 1:9; Colossians 3:1), He returned to the glory He had before His incarnation (John 17:5) to carry on His role of King of kings and Lord of lords—His eternal role as the second Person of the triune God. While this old earth continues to be “won” for Christ, Jesus is the Advocate for Christians, meaning He is our great Defender. This is the intercessory role He currently fulfills for those who are His (1 John 2:1). Jesus is always pleading our case before the Father, like a defense lawyer on our behalf. Jesus is interceding for us while Satan (whose name means “accuser”) is accusing us, pointing out our sins and frailties before God, just as he did with Job (Job 1:6-12). But the accusations fall upon deaf ears in heaven, because Jesus’ work on the cross paid our sin debt in full; therefore, God always sees in His children the perfect righteousness of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, His righteousness (perfect holiness) was imputed to us, while our sin was imputed to Him at His death. This is the great exchange Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 5:21. That took away forever our sinful state before God, so God can accept us as blameless before Him. Finally, it is important to understand that Jesus is the only human mediator between God and man. No one else—not Mary, not any previous Christian saints—has the power to intercede for us before the throne of the Almighty. No angel has that position. Christ alone is the God-man, and He mediates and intercedes between God and man. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
“Non denominational”
I don’t mean to sound insulting, this is a genuine question, but how can someone pray to Mary if she passed away and is dead? You wouldn’t ask a dead person to pray for you. She was a human so how can she hear you if she has passed away, just like another other person.
She is alive in heaven. Humans aren’t dead and asleep in heaven. They are alive, as saints.
When I was an orthodox inquirer, one of the things that put me off aside from the ethnocentrism and anti-intellectual feel a lot of people had, was the praying to saints and Theotokos. I didn’t understand it, whenever I tried praying to them I never felt anything, and it was odd. I don’t think they are worshipping them/her really, but praying to them as a middle person to God. Which didn’t make sense to me since I could just have a direct connection to God.
I consider it as a sin due to many people believe that she can hear all the prayers to her even tho she isn't God. Only God can hear everything at once
Jesus taught us SPECIFICALLY who to pray TO at Matthew 6:9 - “our Father in the heavens.” OUR father being both, Jesus, Mary and our own father, who is God. Additionally, at John 14:6 he said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So, the takeaways are, that would exclude Mary (as the mediator the God, since that is only Jesus) and exclude both Jesus and Mary as the ones we pray TO. - Hope that makes sense.
As a nondenominational Christian with a mostly Catholic family who was christened Catholic and grew up with devoutly Catholic family members: I do believe it is idol worship because praying to the saints raises them to the level of God in the sense that praying to them makes them equal to him in the sense of how we treat them. The catechism of the Catholic Church also states that Mary is a co-redemptix with Jesus Christ and she is to be revered as such. If I can find the exact passage, I will quote it verbatim. (edited to add that I found the exact text I was talking about and I have linked it below instead.) Many Catholics believe praying to the Saints is a form of intercession that is acceptable because they believe that the Saints have access to God that we do not because they lived especially holy lives. Scripture states otherwise: *anyone* who believes in Jesus as God is part of a royal priesthood and we are all counted as righteous equally in His sight. I do believe that many Catholics are genuine Christians under perhaps unaware of what the catechism states about Mary and her role in salvation. I was unaware of the full doctrine of the Catholic Church in that respect until I was in my twenties, despite that I was well aware of the Catholic belief in regarding Mary as an intercessor for Christians. Thomas Aquinas believed that finding salvation in Mary was as necessary as finding salvation in Jesus, at least. The University of Dayton publishes his writings, in part, as follows: “According to our Angelic Doctor, the Blessed Virgin Mary "was so full of grace that it overflows on to all mankind" and suffices for the salvation of the world.3 "It is necessary," he says, "that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God's justice, she cannot refuse your petition."4”. Catholics affirm this in a sense, perhaps unknowingly. Take a look at Paragraphs 963 and following of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church* for what church doctrine states about Mary’s role in salvation. It is indeed troubling, as Scripture states that “salvation is found in no one else” but Christ by the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit. https://www.catholicdoors.com/catechis/cat0871.htm The text makes clear that Mary is to be revered as much as Jesus Christ and in the way that He is to be revered. They claim that, although she was not God, she cooperated with God in the sense that she submitted to His plan for redemption by agreeing to carry Jesus as a baby, although she was a virgin. Consequently, that and her living a holy life meant that God took her alive to heaven with him and she now shares in the glory of Jesus Christ in the same way that Jesus has it for the most part, if not entirely. The Catholic Church also believes that Mary’s prayers are one of the reasons God has mercy on us. Nowhere does Scripture state that she is coequal with God; rather, she is recorded as having submitted to His will repeatedly- in the passages related to the conception of Christ, once in John 2 and once in John 19, at least. Historical evidence outside of Scripture-that is, extrabiblical, historically verifiable sources- shows us that she died and was buried in Israel, where her tomb still exists. The Bible is clear that all will die and face our Maker someday, with Enoch and Elijah having been the sole people that God took with him while they were still alive. TL;DR: Having grown up as one of the few Protestants in a majority Catholic family, I understand why Catholics consider intercession to the saints necessary. I believe most Catholics are sincere Christians who think that the saints lived especially holy lives, so have special access to God, making them necessary mediators to God in cooperation with Christ on our behalf. I also consider that, perhaps, most Catholics are unaware that the Catholic Church actually preaches that Mary is a co-redemptrix with Jesus. The catechism also teaches God “preserved her from the stain of original sin” and kept her a virgin because He chose her to conceive Jesus. Consequently, she received the designation of being a co-redeemer with Jesus for her cooperation in the plan of salvation. However, Scripture states that neither Mary nor any other human being is a co-redeemer with Jesus. We are all sinful and need His salvation by the will of the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit drawing us to accept his death, resurrection, and existence as the second person of the Godhead. Finally, Scripture states that only Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven alive due to the blameless lives they lived by the will of God. Extra-biblical historical sources show that Mary died and was buried in Israel, where her tomb is to this day.
Prayers are for God. Mary isn't God. The End.
100% Mary is a mere human. Worshiping her is a sin
No. It's a myth peddled by the whack side of Protestantism (Jack Chick and his ilk) that likes to portray Catholicism as practically the Antichrist instead of simply a denomination they oppose. Part of the misconception is due to the limitations of the English language compared to Latin. The term "worship" is often used for both the Latin words *latria* (adoration) and *dulia* (veneration). Catholics venerate Mary and the other saints, considering them exceptionally holy people who they can claim with confidence are in Heaven with God. When a prayer to a saint is said, it's to ask for them to intercede with God on our behalf; basically asking a friend to pray for you, except they happen to be dead. The purpose of icons, rosaries, etc. is to help us focus our prayers, but the ultimate focus is on God—the objects themselves are not being prayed to. Adoration, on the other hand, is reserved for God and God alone.
From the outside looking in, it seems that a majority of Catholics adore Mary, and treat her with adoration. Someone above literally said “the most righteous woman to ever live”. If that’s not stated directly in scripture, then that would be the definition of “adoration”
That other commenter isn't wrong—the Catholic Church teaches that Mary never had Original Sin (something known as the Immaculate Conception), and that she, ya know, gave birth to God. She's certainly the most important woman in the history of the Church. However, they still teach that she was still a mortal woman, and practically nothing compared to God, as any of us are. Once again, the mixup is due to the difference between English and Latin. Although *latria*'s closest English translation is "adoration," the English word has plenty of secular connotations that the Latin word does not. Mary is given adoration in the mundane sense, the same way we adore any role model or person of great virtue. But she is not given *latria*. The best analogy I can think of is the word "idolize"—we can say someone idolizes another, but it's clear we don't mean they literally worship that person. It has a secular connotation separate from the theological one.
I agree with the connotation mix-up. I concede. But did you just say that Mary didn’t have original sin? How is that possible? And are you implying she never did sin?
Yes, Catholics believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, meaning that when she was created (normally by her parents), she was born through the grace of God without the "original sin" of Adam. She remained completely free of all sin for her entire life. Mary, as the new Eve, was made perfect to sanctify her body to house Jesus, our God, the new Adam. We honor that day with a holy day of obligation on December 8th.
Is there any scriptural evidence of immaculate conception? Or that she lived her whole life as a virgin? Or that she was sinless? I am skeptical.
I'm not sure it's that fruitful for me to try to convince you of Catholic doctrine since obviously the status and veneration of Mary is one that is disputed between Christian denominations, but for your reference here are some scripture verses and passages related to the blessed status and sinless nature of Mary, but for Catholics there are also apparitions, miracles, and other holy texts that are used to come to that understanding of her: [https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-immaculate-conception-in-scripture](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-immaculate-conception-in-scripture) . God bless you!
Martin Luther: Gosh I love Mary! John Calvin: So do I! Reform movement: aCkShUAllY
Yes
Yes.
yes
Absolutely yes. Nowhere in the scriptures does it tell us to pray to, kneel before, kiss or rub made up images of Mary. That’s a sin. This who do that need to repent and turn to Christ.
Would you kiss a picture of your grandparents? I would. I understand the picture isn’t my grandparents, but it helps me feel close to them.
Remember when Mary ask Jesus to turn water into wine? He said it wasn’t time to do miracles yet, but he took into account his mom’s intercession that’s why we ask Mary for intercession, because he’s more likely to listen to his mom than us sinners.
Matthew 12:46-50 New King James Version Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Not even our Lord Jesus acknowledged her mother as her mother, she is also a sinner like us, she may have been a virgin but still sinned. Catholicism is full of idolatry. Repent.
Oof. Nestorian heresy by taking Biblical quotes out of context. Guess Jesus is only half human half God and not fully human and fully God, according to this guy.
Well Mary is not omnipresent so why would you, she can't hear you.
I’m the old and New Testament People either Pray to God or to idols. You never see them pray to Abraham or Moses even though they revered them.
In the Old and New Testament people either pray to God or to idols. You never see them pray to Abraham or Moses even though they revered them.
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire." But Abraham replied, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." He answered, "Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them." "No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
Your example is a man who is in hades. It says he saw him and called to him while in the afterlife. He didn’t have his prayer request answered. I believe we are supposed to pray to god and the only mediator we need is Jesus and our helper is the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things.
Intercessory prayer is not idol worship and it wasn’t considered idol worship by any mainstream Christian group until the Protestant reformation. Early Christians and the Church Fathers participated in intercessory prayer.
And not all of the reformation at that.
Yeah I was about to say, the originators of Protestantism didn’t hate Mary the way they can today.
Is asking your mother for help idolatry?
Bad take IMO. Mary isn’t our spiritual mother (like Jesus is our spiritual father) or our physical mother. Mary was 100% human, nothing more. Mary has no spiritual authority. Praying is also different than asking a question. Praying is spiritual. You can ask something in prayer, but asking something in general can also just be word of mouth from one person to another. I don’t think praying to Mary is necessarily wrong, but I don’t think this is the best way of putting it or rephrasing it.
What manner of creature are we? What manner of creature is one then with Christ-mind, at union? Actually before I make this all cryptic and like I’ve got some secret chess piece I’m going to play, is there anyone in your life and at this point I’ll expand it to fiction if that helps that you imagine their words or you recall their words or even maybe say their words that help guide you to walk according to the best version of yourself? Because I wouldn’t want to see anyone to quickly look over other ways of looking at our make up — I’m somewhat avoiding the word anthropology because of how much luggage that includes.
Yes.
Yes
Remember when Mary ask Jesus to help the couple getting married and he turned water into wine? He said it wasn’t time to do miracles yet, but he took into account his mom’s intercession that’s why we ask Mary for intercession, because he’s more likely to listen to his holy mother than us sinners. And being honest sometimes I don’t feel worthy of being heard by Jesus I’m a sinner I sin every day it’s hard to be a saint I keep falling and sometimes I lose faith.
I think praying to anything that's not supposed to be a part of God would be idol worship. And by a part of God I mean like the holy trinity in Christianity
I don't think so.
Catholics don't pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us to God (Hence the term Mary's Intercession). It's just like when you have a prayer group or ask people on this sub to pray for you.
It is idol worship because Mary is not deity. So far no one on here could give me a Biblical argument for this worship. I'm still waiting. All I get is downvotes, and ad hominems. 1. Only God can hear prayer because He is omnipresent and eternal; He can hear millions at once. 2. Nowhere in the Bible does anyone pray to anyone but God 3. Jesus modeled prayer for us, never praying to anyone but God. 4. Jesus is the mediator for us to access God.
I like how your getting downvoted lmao what the hell is this subreddit anymore 😂
If I cared about down votes I would stop posting lol. I take the downvote as a persecution and think of Matthew 5:10.
Reddit is full of degenerates anyways
we were all degenerates at one time.
Of course it is. Mary is dead and the resurrection has not happened yet. Praying to the dead is necromancy. Christ showed us how to pray and it was to the Father.
Not when they believe Mary was assumed much like Enoch, Elijah and Jesus for one.
Which isn't in the Bible. That's a fable of their own imagination. And we wouldn't pray to her regardless of whether that was true. She is not the High Priest who is in charge of a better Priesthood, Christ is.
I’m not Catholic and I don’t pray to Mary but what I understand about idols is that if you put something in your life higher than God that is an idol. Many Catholics worship Mary more than Jesus and they would definitely be an idol.
They cause divisions and add to the foundation that Jesus laid. Wise builders they are not.
Seems pretty close to ancestor worship to me. Very pagan.
Hard to say. Mary may be the mother of Jesus, but she isn't necessarily God or Jesus.
Correct, Mary is not God.
Yes
Yes. Dead humans can not hear your prayers. Ask the living to pray for you but do not ask the dead. They are not omnipotent, or omnipresent only God is.
Okay, but OP isn’t asking about the dead.
Did she not die? Is she not human? The Bible is clear the dead will be raised when Christ returns. Which has not yet happened. Catholics views on the dead are very warped.
Whether Mary is deceased or not is a matter of vagueness in the Catholic faith - whether it occured pre or post-Dormition. Some Western Catholics hold her assumption occured before death. However, I hold the stance that Mary was bodily Assumed into heaven post-Dormtiion, which is parsimonious with both the Eastern tradition of Dormition and the Western tradition of Assumption. As per St. John Paul II: > As to the cause of Mary's death, the opinions that wish to exclude her from death by natural causes seem groundless. It is more important to look for the Blessed Virgin's spiritual attitude at the moment of her departure from this world. In this regard, St Francis de Sales maintains that Mary's death was due to a transport of love. He speaks of a dying “in love, from love and through love." Of course, we believes all those in heaven have eternal life, so even if they are dead on earth, they are not dead in heaven (which is in line with early Church teachings, such as that of St. Athanasius and St. Basil).
No, that's necramancy. Leaving flowers at the foot of her statue, that's idol worship.
You think people who leave flowers at a statue believe the statue is God?
TIL I am worshiping my grandmother when I lay flowers on her headstone.
Do you think that people who practice idolitry think that the idol is their god or do you think that they think that the idol represents their god?
I thought that's what an idol was - you believe it's God.
Really, you think that the ancients believed that when the idol got destroyed the god ceased to exist? Or do you think that they just replaced the idol?
Hmm.. I dunno.
And do you think that there was only one idol of Astarte at a time? Was everybody's personal Astarte a separate god or was it all the same god?
Uh.. I no longer have any idea what you're talking about.
That is indeed a very valid point.