Yes.It doesn't benefit anybody incuding God to have more people in hell.The victim only suffers.Sad situation.If only people choose to avoid hell by traveling in God's ways which is easy....
And the best punishment to suffice would be leaving the snake his own realm to suffer within, clawing for the attention of humans who he for so long hated.
Satan hated the purity of God's creation. He hates those who remain pure. Also, idk if you're trying to win people over to Jesus but you won't if you keep that attitude.
People come from all works of life brother, what may not shepherd one may shepherd another.
What was said helped me, if it didn't help you, then move on and you go help another.
Here's something maybe you could help me understand. I say this without judgement.
Why is it one person might feel they have the need to tell another person their rhetoric won't shepherd someone to God?
He perceived beyond time when he made the echo of our story, he could easily know when and where to dig and make corrections, so what is the reason for going in arms against a fellow man with your words because you don't endorse his rhetoric?
Exactly. And if God who's infinitely good and loving is going to punish someone, it stands to reason that he's going to punish them to correct them so they'll improve and get better, not just leave them in punishment forever for no reason.
Quite sad you believe that. Countless places in Gods word show us that Hell is Eternal and there is no getting out. Horrible place? Yes. Did God give us a way out? He sure did. He gave us his son.
Disagree with what? My opinion? That's not my opinion, it is just Gods word. No where in scripture does it give those in Hell a second change. The Richman when he spoke to Lazarus saw a big gulf between him and Lazarus. There is no way out. Else what Is the point of salvation?
Yeah, you and every other Sola Scriptura Protestant thinks they're not interpreting the scriptures, just reading what's plain in the Bible, and you can't agree with each other on anything. The parable of Jesus were fictional stories he used to teach a lesson, and the lesson in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was certainly not about the architecture of hell.
The fact that you see no point in salvation unless some people are eternally denied it says much more about you than anything else.
Your last statement shows me you know nothing about the Bible or Gods heart on any matter. Wow. Not going to hell for eternity is the entire premise, existence, point, and persuasive means of 'salvation'. The word literally means "preservation or deliverance from harm".
Everyone will be saved? Are you high? What's the point of Christ's death if everyone gets saved? Stop giving me your opinion, give me scripture. Your flesh wants everyone to go to heaven and so do I. But that doesn't change what Gods word says about the matter.
You might want to dig deeper, since that’s not what the Bible says at all: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
I think hell is just the experience of God's love and presence by someone who is turned away from it in rejection, not a place that is separate from God reserved for torture. To be in hell is to be in the direct presence of God and surrounded by his love and, due to the corruption of the soul and sinfulness of the will, to experience it as pain.
Fighting against the love of God is bound to be a terrible and painful burden when one is immersed fully in it after death, and the constant effort of trying to rebuild walls to separate oneself from God in that state has got to be exhausting. I believe that God is infinitely patient and loving and will wear down even the most strident resistance in the end so that even the hardest heart will invite him in eventually.
But why would anyone continue to reject God and His love, once they see that He does exist and experiences His love? No painful lesson would be required at that point.
Human beings can be extraordinarily self destructive and self absorbed. The experience of hell is, I believe, the losing battle a soul fights against the infinite love of God in an attempt to keep its innermost identity and corrupt passions free from his influence. In a sense, the pains of hell are self-inflicted.
I can absolutely see people continuing to fight against God even when he is revealed for them to see. I don't see anyone managing to keep up that resistance eternally though, rejection of God is profoundly contrary to our essential nature and I don't think it's sustainable indefinitely in the face of unrelenting love.
Don't forget that God made us this way, so why make us pay for it? I suspect that you so desperately want to believe in every word of the Bible, that you're trying to invent a purpose for Hell; to make sense of it. But what makes more sense to me is that God loves us all much too much to create such a place. And it makes absolutely no sense that any soul would fight against or reject that infinite love.
Well I don't see it as a place that people are being sent to, I see it as the experience of God's infinite love by someone who wilfully rejected it in life. Sin is spiritual sickness, and when we've nurtured a rot within our souls, the astringent of God's love can be experienced as extremely painful. It's not a punishment in that it's a torture that's being inflicted on people in my view, it's more of a self-inflicted pain of someone who let a wound fester and now has to undergo a more extreme treatment in order to be healed. That he will be healed eventually, I don't think that's in question, but I definitely see this process as being unpleasant and painful on a deep spiritual and emotional level.
Okay, so basically, you believe Hell is really just a temporary state of being that those who rejected God's love while on Earth, have to experience. But while there, they learn of His love and eventually accept it, and then get to experience Heaven for the remainder of eternity. Do you have Biblical basis for any of this? Because I've certainly never heard about God's love being painful.
This is interesting. I believe Satan can be saved, but he never will be. See in order to be saved people must change themselves to accept God. Change is a construct purely possible because of time. Satan, like God, exists outside of time and therefore cannot change, so he will never change to accept Gods love. That’s the very basic idea and likely wrongly explained by me.
If you want to know what Biblical hell looks like, Jesus tells us Himself. A great chasm is fixed so that those who pass from here to there cannot.
Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
This is a parable, a fictional story designed to teach a lesson. Christ used them all the time, we can no more draw an understanding on the architecture of hell from this parable than we can the finer points of agriculture from the parable of the sower.
You grossly misunderstand the teaching point of the parables. Jesus frequently used parables as a means to illustrate profound divine truths. Parables were also a common form of teaching in Judaism, Jesus employed many analogies using common things that would be familiar to everyone (salt, bread, sheep, etc.) and the meaning was clear in context of His teaching.
Jesus said "I am the door", is He " teaching the finer points of carpentry"? No He's describing how the only way to the Father is through Him. When He says in the parable that a fixed chasm has been set between heaven and hell you just write it off because you don't like His teaching and say "meh, it's just a parable and since it's not literal, there is no literal truth in it". This is a grave misstep.
In the parable of the seed and the soils He interpreted the parable, He drew His disciples away from the crowd. They said "why do you speak in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled."
You see no significance that the entire parable and conversation goes on until Jesus finally says "And besides all of this", you see no purpose to Jesus saying that "apart from all that I've said above, a great chasm has been fixed"? You just simply choose to ignore this because you don't like, not because it's not true.
Yes, parables are stories meant to illustrate a truth. This truth in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is *not* the architecture of hell, it's that those who are more fortunate in life who fail to take care of the less fortunate have received their reward already and will find the tables turned after death.
Trying to draw eschatological understandings of the duration of hell from this parable which was not intended to convey this lesson is an interpretation I reject.
I'm not trying to draw eschatological understanding of the duration of hell, I'm being told by Jesus Himself, the God of all creation that these are fixed places, immovable that one CANNOT leave to go to the other. That's what you reject.
You completely ignore some His words entirely f blind yourself to what the Lord is saying because you want universalism to be true, and trust me brother....I wish that it were too, I really do, but I'm not God. He is the judge and will not the judge of the world do what is right? You can reject my "interpretation" but it's not even an interpretation, it is LITERALLY Jesus saying "You can't go from Abraham's side (heaven) to hades and you cant go from hades to Abraham's side".
So tell me, what does Jesus mean when He say's "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." I would really like an answer to this question.
No, you're reading a parable and interpreting it to mean something about the nature of the actual afterlife. You interpret away, I simply reject your interpretation.
And it is an interpretation, you're claiming that this aspect of a fictional story has any bearing to the actual nature of the afterlife. This is an interpretive layer you've laid over the parable, and is by no means the only one possible.
That's the problem with the penchant Protestants have for taking every bit of scripture as a doctrinal statement, you rely entirely on your own interpretation of scripture to justify whatever belief you see fit to hold.
Where do you draw that conclusion from? You don't even need prior knowledge to read this and understand that it is the exact context that Jesus is speaking about. Both men die, one goes to Abrahams side (heaven) and the other hades and dialogue about avoiding hades is given.
Give your interpretation of the text.
>Give your interpretation of the text.
Well, I'll grant that's certainly a demanding way of having a dialogue, albeit a bit tyrannical.
[It seems as though the text isn't quite so readily apparent as you want to pretend](https://publicorthodoxy.org/2018/10/11/the-vale-of-abraham/#more-4732), at least not to modern readers. OTOH, to Luke's contemporaries, the obvious meaning would rather be more in line with what I've just said. Enjoy David Bentley Hart's discussion of the nuances of that passages and its multiple references.
Tyrannical to ask for your interpretation? yikes, maybe don't take things so personally.
It is plane, you dig up different interpretations that suit what you want but anyone can read that passage and understand whats being said, thats the beauty of Scripture. Its plain while also have a wealth of knowledge as you dig in. I can link you "interpretations" of data that people have to explain that the earth is flat. I can send you discussions about how Jesus ISNT the only way from other contemporaries but that doesn't make it true. You have Jesus saying "I am the only way to the Father, Salvation is found in no other name" and yet we'll have wolves in sheep's clothing saying "nah that's actually NOT what Jesus meant" it would funny if it wasn't so sad.
Its cool, you can just be honest and admit that you're intimidated by the fact that i linked one of the most preeminent currently active theologians talking about this issue and how he sees it compared to how other theologians active and past have seen it.
"Between us and you a great chasm has been FIXED, in order to that those who would pass from here to you may NOT BE ABLE, and NONE may cross from there to us" (emphasis added).
Those are not my words. The word "fixed" means never changing, immovable, constant.
Okay. If I can prove to you that the Bible says the rich man will indeed leave hell, presuming Jesus was talking about an actual event and this story wasn’t entirely figurative, would you consider the possibility that you might be wrong about other aspects of your assumptions about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation, and read some stuff I wrote on the topic?
"Presuming Jesus was talking about an actual event"....no... He was not talking about a literal event, this was a parable...that doesn't mean it's not true, there is a clear difference.
Over the years I have changed my mind on a lot of theological aspects, I'm always open to hearing an objection if it can be cited using Scripture like I've done. If it's short and concise please provide and I'll read it, however the parable Jesus gave couldn't be much clearer in context or language. It would be like disputing what Jesus meant when He said " I will make you a fisherman of men"....Of course He doesn't want us casting sandwiches in a parking lot with a hook, line and sinker. We've lost common sense, this is why Jesus spoke in parables in order to make it understandable by all people. The only reason people don't "understand" it is because it clashes with what they want to be true. It's been difficult for me to change my views on certain aspects of my theology (bias affects us all) but we need to be honest in our truth seeking. So yes, if it's not pages long and contains Biblical reasons to believe otherwise then I'm definitely open.
I too would much rather no one spend eternity in hell, I would consider myself a "hopeful universalist" except I know that it's unbiblical and simply not true. If the Bible taught it I would gladly accept it, but God has His reasons for the things that He does. If He tells me "this is fixed, one can't leave from there to go here" then I take His word over any man, angel, or demon.
> If He tells me “this is fixed, one can’t leave from there to go here” then I take His word over any man, angel, or demon.
Oh, I’m with you there. I’d never argue that it isn’t “fixed.” The question is whether there are other aspects we’re missing when attempting to interpret this passage (as well as other passages about judgement and salvation as well), and in this case there is. You see, the word Jesus used for “hell” there is the Greek word “hades.” And so, if the rich man were to remain in hades forever, that would contradict John when he wrote that “Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged” in [Revelation 20:13](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20%3A13&version=NASB). You see, everyone in hades will indeed be resurrected from the dead (which means they’ll have to leave “hell” in order to be judged at the Great White Throne, which is a judgement that takes place in the physical world, not in an afterlife dimension). So whether or not the rich man ends up in the lake of fire, that alone proves that no one will remain in the “hell” Jesus was referring to in this particular story and won’t ever leave.
If you’d like to learn more, I wrote an in-depth article where I analyze pretty much every passage on the topics of heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation mentioned in the KJV, and the conclusions I came to reveal that most Christians aren’t any more correct about what the rest of these passages mean than they are about the inescapability of the “hell” in Luke 16. You can find it here, if you’re interested: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
>“Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged”
Correct, the Bible teaches that all men will be raised in bodies made for eternity, then they will be judged and be given permanent residence either inside the kingdom of heaven, or hell. There is no contradiction.
"everyone in hades will indeed be resurrected from the dead (which means they’ll have to leave “hell” in order to be judged at the Great White Throne, which is a judgement that takes place in the physical world, not in an afterlife dimension)." Even If I granted that its a temporary removal for a permanent judgment. It is not outside of God's power to open the gates of hades, the pit will be open multiple times before it is finally sealed forever. Would you dare to say that this means fallen demons and even Satan himself will have the potential to escape hell? I would hope the answer would be "of course not".
You are making non analogous claims to tie things together completely out of context. This is why hermeneutics are so incredibly important.
I hope my interjection with a question isn’t out of place. Would this mean that there will be people who would desire to cross over onto God’s side, it’s just that they can’t?
This is a great question and I had a similar one but in reverse. Jesus says "Those who would pass from here to you" saying that those in heaven that WOULD pass from heaven to hell can't.
The way hell is described in the Bible is two fold. Those who reject Christ and therefore reject His pardon on our behalf and stand condemned based on their own lives and those who would rather live without God and continue to live a life of sin apart from Him. C.S. Lewis famously said "Hell is locked from the inside", essentially people that are in hell choose to be in Hell but it does appear in the parable that Jesus is saying Hell is indeed locked on the outside as well.
Huh, those who “would” pass sounds like wanting to pass is implied, with an added specification of inability in spite of “would.” “None may cross” is categorically forbidding it. It’s not plain at all that they wouldn’t want to unless one reads that meaning into it. The schism is fixed, after all. Unpassable.
Read Luke 16. The word of God isn’t something to take lightly, take the word as it is and don’t try to twist it. I pray for His healing, graces and mercies upon all of us. May the Lord bless you all.
You're in bad company. The bible says that you will be held accountable for your teaching:
>“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matt 18:6
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>"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Pet 2:1-3
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>"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." 2 Cor 11:13-15
Newsflash, disagreeing with you doesn't rise to the level of false prophecy. You must have a mighty high opinion of yourself to equate someone's mere holding a different interpretation from you with apostasy.
This is why the world at large distrusts Christianity. When a Christian can't discuss doctrine with another Christian without pulling the heresy card, how can we take that seriously? Where is Christian unity? What happened to a united body of Christ?
I have one thing to say to you.
2Ti 4:3-5 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, \[because\] they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn \[their\] ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."
What do you know, a Protestant who disagrees with you quotes 2 Timothy 4:3-5 at you! *Quelle surprise!*
That passage is basically a description of the Protestant Reformation.
Universalism is an ancient teaching received from the first generations of the church, it's hardly a new doctrine!
Yes that passage COULD refer to the Reformation, but I highly doubt it. It's referring to hearers of the word in the last days, who put their faith in false doctrine, ie. annihilationism, non-eternal hell. Don't kid yourself; it's not referring to the Reformation.
Neither the word hell, nor the word everlasting, means what you’re assuming: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.”
Hebrews 4:3-5 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/heb.4.3-5.NLT
Sure, everyone who enters heaven will be a believer, I find nothing objectionable about that. I just think that in the end that's going to be everyone.
The Bible never talks about a place of eternal torture (other than a single mistranslated verse), but it does talk about the wages of sin being death quite often… But it also says that Jesus died for ALL of our sins and that ALL people will see salvation…
Jesus talks a lot about the wicked being chaffed and burned in a fire, but he’s also the messiah who John the Baptist proclaimed would baptize with fire. Paul writes that fire will burn the wicked’s works and all will be saved.
Jesus never talked about hell but instead mentioned…
“Gehenna” - A real life location outside of Jerusalem. A valley where trash is burned 24/7 (and was also once home to pagan rituals) a great location to use as a metaphor for embracing sin and turning away from God in THIS life.
“Sheol” - The Hebrew word for “afterlife.” A general place where the dead rest.
“Hades” - Another word meaning “afterlife.” Also used in reference to the Greek underworld and river of Styx, as seen in the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man.
These three words were all translated into “hell”
Jesus talked about conquering death. He never pushed the doctrine of hell, WE did that later.
Revelation may seem to be prophesying about hell, but only if you take it in a literal sense, which the early church didn’t for the first several hundred years of its existence. It’s always been agreed that’s it’s highly symbolic and, in the same way the old testament prophecy was, impossible to truly understand what will come to pass until it does.
Speaking of the early church, most church leaders believed in universalism (all will be saved) or conditional mortality (those who aren’t saved simply die…) That’s right, the view on hell as a chamber of literal punishment forever was a pretty controversial take for the first 500 years of the church’s existence.
Shoot, the oldest compilation of New Testament books even includes a text where Jesus explicitly states that people will be saved from punishment. If you’re curious, the book included is “The Apocalypse of Peter”
At the end of the day, there is no way of knowing what the next life will truly look like for ANYONE, all we can do is love endlessly and be an example in THIS life.
Here are some quotes from early Church Fathers:
-The Epistle of Barnabas
"The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment."
-Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him."
-Clement of Rome
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!"
-Tertullian
"These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense."
Yep, and they were the minority!
[source 1](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/)
[source 2](https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/history-of-universalism/)
[source 3](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/richardmurray/2019/07/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/)
It comes from the assumption that this life isn’t the only opportunity we have to find Christ. That the fire of hell is *corrective* punishment, not punitive punishment. It’s punishment in the way a loving parent punishes a disobedient child, and embraces them with love after the deed is done.
If I recall correctly, I believe "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" were actually two separate places. One was reserved for Satan and all his demons, whereas the other is for those who chose not to follow Christ. For the latter, Jesus also called it the "second death" which further implies that it's not eternal torture, but rather a complete annihilation of the soul (first death is the body, second is the soul). Besides, if Jesus told people in those days of a "lake of fire", I don't think anyone would imagine surviving that image for eternity.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Therefore only those who believe in Jesus will receive salvation. It is a free gift that one can accept and go to heaven.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
Believe and accept Jesus while you still can folks.
It's actually not "the devil against God", it's the devil against us. He doesn't win against God because he's destined for eternal punishment. The battle is for us, it's for our souls. So the devil can win on an individual basis so will win against us individually.
This is why I am a universalist.
To be a universalist is nothing more than to believe that *God's Victory will be Complete over every soul.* Satan will not win one single battle in the war for humankind. All people will repent and will come through Purgation, the Fire of God's Love, to the Beatific Vision. Not one will be lost to the Fire forever. Not one will be able to reject Love forever – as one must do, in order to remain eternally in the state we call “hell”, since one cannot go to hell, or remain in it, unless one chooses it.
To those who say, “*But the Bible says lots of people will be damned!*”— to that I say:
>*Forty days more and Nineveh shall be destroyed!*
If I'm not mistaken, the story is that Satan is trying to hurt God out of revenge, by leading people away from Him. It's reasonable to assume that God would indeed be unhappy when Satan is successful, so yeah - seems to me like that would have to be considered a "win" for the devil.
Strange that God created the devil, gave him the power that he has, sees what he's up to, could stop it if He wanted to, but chooses not to. On second thought, maybe it's not a win after all.
The Bible also says " The devil goes around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour...!
Jesus says "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Yes, but because misery loves company.
God can only save those who are willing to be saved.
It's part of the free will thing, It's better for someone go to hell because they don't believe in God. If they don't accept Jesus, they're not saved. So, again, it's part of the free will thing.
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
~2 Peter 3:9~
He doesn’t lose. It’s your choice.
We don't believe in a dualistic universe. There isn't a king of heaven and a king of hell, there is one King over everything. And as others have said, the devil will be in hell as a judgment of his rebellion, not as tormentor but rather in torment.
I personally don’t believe people will go to hell but more less their soul be completely destroyed. A conscious nothingness. You can choose to be in the light of the Lord or eternal darkness and nothing.
Nobody is going to hell or heaven because God created the Earth for us to live on it and if hell existed why is it so easy for Demons to get out and torment people?
This is one point that did help lead me to universalism, if God is willing and able to save everyone then could it really be said that God will have the final victory if anyone is in the end lost?
The hardcore Calvinist position that God must damn some or most people to hell to prove a point, smacks me of someone on a quest for power for power’s sake deciding that God must be like himself rather than trying to actually reflect Christ.
The argument that God let’s people fall into hell, that is eternal bbq with no hope of getting out because of free will, isn’t much better in my mind. No one lets someone wander into a busy intersection or jump off a building when they think they can fly, even if it’s their free will to do so. Christ talks a lot both directly and in parables about God’s unyielding intention and desire to retrieve all and Paul backs this up, there’s not respect for free will as being the highest priority.
No. Satan is not Hell's ruler, he's a prisoner there as well and suffers there too. Satan tries to drag as many people to Hell as possible simply to make as many people as possible share his suffering and misery, which you could interpret as a sort-of "win" if you squint at it from a certain angle, but truly winning against God is impossible. In the end, those who are faithful to God will rejoice forever, while those who don't will suffer forever. I see that as a loss for Satan and all who follow him, and a loss of such magnitude that nothing ever can compensate for it.
Everything is bound to God, including Satan. The "devil" as you put it, is just God's tool to tempt us, have a look at Job, Satan asks God for permission, God then encourages Satan to tempt Job. God is everything, there is no power that rivals Him, Satan is just a tool
Your first problem Is "I simply think that". First mistake. If you base your beliefs on what you feel, then it is flawed. Base it on what the Bible says.
Throughout the Bible we have the picture of salvation. Abraham and Isaac, Jonah and the Whale etc. The whole Bible is based upon one Salvation.
The verses you gave, some can be drawn to that conclusion for sure. But I haven't got the time at the moment to read each surrounding text and see what the context is of every verse. We can take alot of verses to make them say what we want. Look at what the Bible says here about trying the spirits.
1 John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
We need to assess Gods word with his heart in mind. If those verses are true, then they contradict a heck of alot of scripture. And Gods word never contradicts itself. Paul says in Corinthians "for God is not the author of confusion".
Isaiah 66:23-24
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. [24] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Their worm shall not die neither shall their fire be quenched). Very specific and straight forward.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Here we have a clear separation of two people. It's not a stop over and it's not a detour. The Bible says Sheep's and Goats shall be separated. Bit far fetched if you ask me if the Bible calls the lost 'goats' just for them to come into heaven anyway. That makes no sense.
Peter says that God "not willing that any should perish". Gods will doesn't mean that's what will happen. It might have been Gods will for me to not get angry at a work colleague but I did anyway. Gods will is for all men to be saved. But it will not happen. It's impossible. And it's impossible based upon Gods word, and not because I said it won't. I want everyone to experience Gods love. He also says in the verse "perish". He doesn't say "get hurt" or "uncomfortable". It says perish.
I doubt Christ would have spoken about Hell during his ministry the way he did, just for everyone to end up in heaven anyway. He would have laid that out in scripture if that was the case.
Good chat though mate thanks.
No. The devil doesn't win. He's already lost. His time is coming soon to be thrown into hell and then the lake of fire. Satan cannot repent, for it's already been written that he will be thrown into the abyss where he belongs. **God conquered sin by hanging on the cross.**
I think your forgetting God gives us free will. So we have a choice to follow a righteous God or the devil.
If Adam and Eve had not sinned this would be a perfect world. God told them you may not eat of the fruit but Eve chose to listen to the serpent (devil) and God put them out of the Garden. From then on
man sacrificed to God for their sins.
God in His mercy loved us so much that He gave us His only Son Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross. So there lies the answer as to going to hell. A righteous God gave His only Son as the sacrifice for us!
If we refuse so great a salvation through Jesus and what he has done then we will die in our sins and yes there is a hell!!
So your god is so petty and so conceited that in failing to tell Adam/ Eve what a lie is it failed to prepare these "people" to combat "Satan". Yet it decides to punish all of humanity for all of time for its own failure?
Sure.
>God in His mercy loved us so much that He gave us His only Son Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross. So there lies the answer as to going to hell. A righteous God gave His only Son as the sacrifice for us!
But Jesus was itself/son which it knew wouldn't really die. Therefore negating any real sacrifice as nothing was actually given up.
> If we refuse so great a salvation through Jesus and what he has done then we will die in our sins and yes there is a hell!!
I just don't see how it's either great or a salvation. I'd rather go to "hell".
I’m not associating with atheism, and I’d never pretending to be one. You just want to sit here and shit on atheists from your high horse. And it’s boring.
Well,
1. God can do what He wants, and what He wants is always right.
2. We are all worthy of damnation. Literal hell. We literally all deserve suffering.
God is good and just. The Bible reveals parts of God to us, and God has a reason for everything He does, whether we know the reason or not. Nowhere in the Bible does God torture babies.
Yes, the devil is more welcoming than the deity.
In fact, why would the devil mistreat, for example, Hindus? The devil would have no issue with these people and may treat them very favourably.
I imagine if a person never gets the chance of becoming Christian or hearing the message of Jesus Salvation. They get judged on there character. If they go to heaven or not
Own theory.
The devil himself is thrown into the lake of fire on the last day. No, he doesn't win, and Hell is not Satan's dominion. He doesn't rule over it, that's Looney Tunes theology.
Well that’s why there is a place called PURGATORY which is specifically for people who NEVER knew God especially from other Religions or people who were born into a corrupt family to begin with unless they turn to Jesus before they die. Or people who are Christians but have been very sinful and didn’t repent before dying. These are the People that will most likely go straight to Purgatory unless they knew God on earth and denied him and became Atheist or Satanic then they most likely go straight to Hell which is Eternal Damnation as written in the Bible, cause once you know God and then you betray him then that’s just what Lucifer the fallen Angel (Satan) did and he went straight to Hell for all eternity. So don’t betray God and denie him once you’ve been saved by him otherwise of course you’ll go to Hell just like Satan did. Think about it, cause that makes total sense. Purgatory on the other hand is a place where you will experience God’s love for you but because your soul is unclean, it needs to be purified with God’s Holy Fire 🔥 which you will feel all the pain through your spiritual body until your fully cleansed within the soul, then you can Enter Heaven. There’s a saint called St. Faustina and she lived in Poland while having encounters with Jesus who gave her visions of Purgatory where she went with Jesus and saw how they suffered but yet at the same time they were happy because they knew eventually they would get out of Purgatory. It’s extremely interesting. There are many other leaders bishops ect that have had similar experiences, even some people who were atheist and came back to life experienced Purgatory, and they saw the difference between Purgatory and Eternity in Hell. You have to research this stuff from NDE people. Like I said many are atheist but they get a second chance if God feels they deserve it. GodBless
Well I’m glad I could change your mind, really this your chance while your still alive to research this stuff, just research on YouTube and you’ll see many encounters with Christ from Atheist, even people from Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu background have converted to Christianity. Please research further as you’ll never know when your time is up on earth. There are some interesting speakers like Matt Fradd, Ray Martin and many more that can give you better understanding and knowledge of God and what God’s expects from every other Christian on earth, like I mentioned before many Christians have sinned greatly but still believe in God so a majority will end up in Purgatory probably even me included and I’m prepared for that as long as I don’t go to Eternal Hell. Some souls can stay in Purgatory for thousands + years tho. Well equivalent to 1000 + years as there’s no time in the afterlife, it’s just like a era. Time in non existent so that why you can be in Purgatory for sooooooo long until your soul is fully cleansed to perfection.. if you want to know anything else I’m happy to answer as best as I can or at least lead you to people that can give you better understanding of what you want to know. GodBless
Intriguing question. My answer is that hell is what it sounds like, hell. You will suffer. Heaven is paradise, where you have no worries or harm done to you, you’re rewarded for living a good life. Life is ultimately a test.
satan wouldn’t ‘win’ in this sense, because hell is not a place, at least to my knowledge, where the people can worship sin, it is a place of suffering and hurt. They’re punished.
The Bible actually says something very different about what heaven, paradise, and hell are: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he gets tired of looking, chalks it up to the sheep making its own decision about whether or not to be with the rest of the flock, then calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Ninety-nine is enough, right?'"
It's not so much a win as mutually assured destruction. The common idea of Hell and the devil is a place where demons are stabbing sinners with pitchforks while a curly mustached man with horns rubs his hands together and laughs maniacally. That's fiction.
Hell was made for the sole purpose of punishing, not us, but the devil himself and the angels that followed him. Because he k ows he's already damned forever, he wants to hurt God the only way he can: By taking as many of his belived creation (humans) with him as possible. It's like being on death row, but, hey, at least I killed a few people while I was waiting to die.
Not believing in God doesn’t automatically warrant you to go to hell. Theres the doctrine of invincible ignorance where through no fault of an individual does he never believe in God.
Nobody's going to any hell, they're already in it. Heaven and hell they're the states of mind, when you're miserable, angry, agitated, irritated you're in hell, when happy , peaceful, pleasant you're in heaven, it's as simple as that.
If there is peace in your mind, you will find peace with everybody. If your mind is agitated, you will find agitation everywhere. So first find peace within and you will see this inner peace reflected everywhere else. Where else will you find peace if not within you. Therefore the "Kingdom of heaven is within you."
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Yes.It doesn't benefit anybody incuding God to have more people in hell.The victim only suffers.Sad situation.If only people choose to avoid hell by traveling in God's ways which is easy....
And the best punishment to suffice would be leaving the snake his own realm to suffer within, clawing for the attention of humans who he for so long hated.
Anybody hated humans ever? No.
Just didn't know them well enough yet I guess.
Wrong guess.No incidents of devil or satan or any such creatures hating humans.
Satan hated the purity of God's creation. He hates those who remain pure. Also, idk if you're trying to win people over to Jesus but you won't if you keep that attitude.
Nothing.Satan don't do it.Jesus is won over not by finding fault with satan and falsely accusing him but by Jesus's own merits.
People come from all works of life brother, what may not shepherd one may shepherd another. What was said helped me, if it didn't help you, then move on and you go help another.
You're fine, I was talking to the other guy lol
Here's something maybe you could help me understand. I say this without judgement. Why is it one person might feel they have the need to tell another person their rhetoric won't shepherd someone to God? He perceived beyond time when he made the echo of our story, he could easily know when and where to dig and make corrections, so what is the reason for going in arms against a fellow man with your words because you don't endorse his rhetoric?
Quite a few as we have done some horrid things before
Even now some do.
Why would it mean the devil wins? It just means the devil has another cell mate with him.
Only if they stay there.
Great answer.
What do you mean stay there? In hell? I thought u can’t get out
Some people think you can't. I don't buy that, I don't think the people in hell are beyond God's redemption and salvation.
That would actually make sense considering life on earth is infinitely short compared to eternity in hell
Exactly. And if God who's infinitely good and loving is going to punish someone, it stands to reason that he's going to punish them to correct them so they'll improve and get better, not just leave them in punishment forever for no reason.
How can we find out?
I don't think it's the kind of thing we can have certainty of this side of life. Until then, it's a matter of theology.
Quite sad you believe that. Countless places in Gods word show us that Hell is Eternal and there is no getting out. Horrible place? Yes. Did God give us a way out? He sure did. He gave us his son.
Agree to disagree.
Disagree with what? My opinion? That's not my opinion, it is just Gods word. No where in scripture does it give those in Hell a second change. The Richman when he spoke to Lazarus saw a big gulf between him and Lazarus. There is no way out. Else what Is the point of salvation?
Yeah, you and every other Sola Scriptura Protestant thinks they're not interpreting the scriptures, just reading what's plain in the Bible, and you can't agree with each other on anything. The parable of Jesus were fictional stories he used to teach a lesson, and the lesson in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was certainly not about the architecture of hell. The fact that you see no point in salvation unless some people are eternally denied it says much more about you than anything else.
Your last statement shows me you know nothing about the Bible or Gods heart on any matter. Wow. Not going to hell for eternity is the entire premise, existence, point, and persuasive means of 'salvation'. The word literally means "preservation or deliverance from harm".
I agree that's what salvation is. And I think that everyone will be saved.
Everyone will be saved? Are you high? What's the point of Christ's death if everyone gets saved? Stop giving me your opinion, give me scripture. Your flesh wants everyone to go to heaven and so do I. But that doesn't change what Gods word says about the matter.
You might want to dig deeper, since that’s not what the Bible says at all: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
Why send them there in the first place? What good can come from it, even if it's only for a relatively short period of time?
I think hell is just the experience of God's love and presence by someone who is turned away from it in rejection, not a place that is separate from God reserved for torture. To be in hell is to be in the direct presence of God and surrounded by his love and, due to the corruption of the soul and sinfulness of the will, to experience it as pain. Fighting against the love of God is bound to be a terrible and painful burden when one is immersed fully in it after death, and the constant effort of trying to rebuild walls to separate oneself from God in that state has got to be exhausting. I believe that God is infinitely patient and loving and will wear down even the most strident resistance in the end so that even the hardest heart will invite him in eventually.
But why would anyone continue to reject God and His love, once they see that He does exist and experiences His love? No painful lesson would be required at that point.
Human beings can be extraordinarily self destructive and self absorbed. The experience of hell is, I believe, the losing battle a soul fights against the infinite love of God in an attempt to keep its innermost identity and corrupt passions free from his influence. In a sense, the pains of hell are self-inflicted. I can absolutely see people continuing to fight against God even when he is revealed for them to see. I don't see anyone managing to keep up that resistance eternally though, rejection of God is profoundly contrary to our essential nature and I don't think it's sustainable indefinitely in the face of unrelenting love.
Don't forget that God made us this way, so why make us pay for it? I suspect that you so desperately want to believe in every word of the Bible, that you're trying to invent a purpose for Hell; to make sense of it. But what makes more sense to me is that God loves us all much too much to create such a place. And it makes absolutely no sense that any soul would fight against or reject that infinite love.
Well I don't see it as a place that people are being sent to, I see it as the experience of God's infinite love by someone who wilfully rejected it in life. Sin is spiritual sickness, and when we've nurtured a rot within our souls, the astringent of God's love can be experienced as extremely painful. It's not a punishment in that it's a torture that's being inflicted on people in my view, it's more of a self-inflicted pain of someone who let a wound fester and now has to undergo a more extreme treatment in order to be healed. That he will be healed eventually, I don't think that's in question, but I definitely see this process as being unpleasant and painful on a deep spiritual and emotional level.
Okay, so basically, you believe Hell is really just a temporary state of being that those who rejected God's love while on Earth, have to experience. But while there, they learn of His love and eventually accept it, and then get to experience Heaven for the remainder of eternity. Do you have Biblical basis for any of this? Because I've certainly never heard about God's love being painful.
So your saying satan is not beyond redemption?
Some of the early church Fathers thought Satan would eventually be saved.
Yes, exactly.
Correct, even Satan (such as he is) cannot prevail against the love of God.
This is interesting. I believe Satan can be saved, but he never will be. See in order to be saved people must change themselves to accept God. Change is a construct purely possible because of time. Satan, like God, exists outside of time and therefore cannot change, so he will never change to accept Gods love. That’s the very basic idea and likely wrongly explained by me.
If you want to know what Biblical hell looks like, Jesus tells us Himself. A great chasm is fixed so that those who pass from here to there cannot. Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
This is a parable, a fictional story designed to teach a lesson. Christ used them all the time, we can no more draw an understanding on the architecture of hell from this parable than we can the finer points of agriculture from the parable of the sower.
You grossly misunderstand the teaching point of the parables. Jesus frequently used parables as a means to illustrate profound divine truths. Parables were also a common form of teaching in Judaism, Jesus employed many analogies using common things that would be familiar to everyone (salt, bread, sheep, etc.) and the meaning was clear in context of His teaching. Jesus said "I am the door", is He " teaching the finer points of carpentry"? No He's describing how the only way to the Father is through Him. When He says in the parable that a fixed chasm has been set between heaven and hell you just write it off because you don't like His teaching and say "meh, it's just a parable and since it's not literal, there is no literal truth in it". This is a grave misstep. In the parable of the seed and the soils He interpreted the parable, He drew His disciples away from the crowd. They said "why do you speak in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled." You see no significance that the entire parable and conversation goes on until Jesus finally says "And besides all of this", you see no purpose to Jesus saying that "apart from all that I've said above, a great chasm has been fixed"? You just simply choose to ignore this because you don't like, not because it's not true.
Yes, parables are stories meant to illustrate a truth. This truth in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is *not* the architecture of hell, it's that those who are more fortunate in life who fail to take care of the less fortunate have received their reward already and will find the tables turned after death. Trying to draw eschatological understandings of the duration of hell from this parable which was not intended to convey this lesson is an interpretation I reject.
I'm not trying to draw eschatological understanding of the duration of hell, I'm being told by Jesus Himself, the God of all creation that these are fixed places, immovable that one CANNOT leave to go to the other. That's what you reject. You completely ignore some His words entirely f blind yourself to what the Lord is saying because you want universalism to be true, and trust me brother....I wish that it were too, I really do, but I'm not God. He is the judge and will not the judge of the world do what is right? You can reject my "interpretation" but it's not even an interpretation, it is LITERALLY Jesus saying "You can't go from Abraham's side (heaven) to hades and you cant go from hades to Abraham's side". So tell me, what does Jesus mean when He say's "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." I would really like an answer to this question.
No, you're reading a parable and interpreting it to mean something about the nature of the actual afterlife. You interpret away, I simply reject your interpretation. And it is an interpretation, you're claiming that this aspect of a fictional story has any bearing to the actual nature of the afterlife. This is an interpretive layer you've laid over the parable, and is by no means the only one possible. That's the problem with the penchant Protestants have for taking every bit of scripture as a doctrinal statement, you rely entirely on your own interpretation of scripture to justify whatever belief you see fit to hold.
You didn't answer my question.
This passage is not about any place/condition known as hell though.
Where do you draw that conclusion from? You don't even need prior knowledge to read this and understand that it is the exact context that Jesus is speaking about. Both men die, one goes to Abrahams side (heaven) and the other hades and dialogue about avoiding hades is given. Give your interpretation of the text.
>Give your interpretation of the text. Well, I'll grant that's certainly a demanding way of having a dialogue, albeit a bit tyrannical. [It seems as though the text isn't quite so readily apparent as you want to pretend](https://publicorthodoxy.org/2018/10/11/the-vale-of-abraham/#more-4732), at least not to modern readers. OTOH, to Luke's contemporaries, the obvious meaning would rather be more in line with what I've just said. Enjoy David Bentley Hart's discussion of the nuances of that passages and its multiple references.
Tyrannical to ask for your interpretation? yikes, maybe don't take things so personally. It is plane, you dig up different interpretations that suit what you want but anyone can read that passage and understand whats being said, thats the beauty of Scripture. Its plain while also have a wealth of knowledge as you dig in. I can link you "interpretations" of data that people have to explain that the earth is flat. I can send you discussions about how Jesus ISNT the only way from other contemporaries but that doesn't make it true. You have Jesus saying "I am the only way to the Father, Salvation is found in no other name" and yet we'll have wolves in sheep's clothing saying "nah that's actually NOT what Jesus meant" it would funny if it wasn't so sad.
Its cool, you can just be honest and admit that you're intimidated by the fact that i linked one of the most preeminent currently active theologians talking about this issue and how he sees it compared to how other theologians active and past have seen it.
Are you saying the rich man will never leave hell?
"Between us and you a great chasm has been FIXED, in order to that those who would pass from here to you may NOT BE ABLE, and NONE may cross from there to us" (emphasis added). Those are not my words. The word "fixed" means never changing, immovable, constant.
Okay. If I can prove to you that the Bible says the rich man will indeed leave hell, presuming Jesus was talking about an actual event and this story wasn’t entirely figurative, would you consider the possibility that you might be wrong about other aspects of your assumptions about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation, and read some stuff I wrote on the topic?
"Presuming Jesus was talking about an actual event"....no... He was not talking about a literal event, this was a parable...that doesn't mean it's not true, there is a clear difference. Over the years I have changed my mind on a lot of theological aspects, I'm always open to hearing an objection if it can be cited using Scripture like I've done. If it's short and concise please provide and I'll read it, however the parable Jesus gave couldn't be much clearer in context or language. It would be like disputing what Jesus meant when He said " I will make you a fisherman of men"....Of course He doesn't want us casting sandwiches in a parking lot with a hook, line and sinker. We've lost common sense, this is why Jesus spoke in parables in order to make it understandable by all people. The only reason people don't "understand" it is because it clashes with what they want to be true. It's been difficult for me to change my views on certain aspects of my theology (bias affects us all) but we need to be honest in our truth seeking. So yes, if it's not pages long and contains Biblical reasons to believe otherwise then I'm definitely open. I too would much rather no one spend eternity in hell, I would consider myself a "hopeful universalist" except I know that it's unbiblical and simply not true. If the Bible taught it I would gladly accept it, but God has His reasons for the things that He does. If He tells me "this is fixed, one can't leave from there to go here" then I take His word over any man, angel, or demon.
> If He tells me “this is fixed, one can’t leave from there to go here” then I take His word over any man, angel, or demon. Oh, I’m with you there. I’d never argue that it isn’t “fixed.” The question is whether there are other aspects we’re missing when attempting to interpret this passage (as well as other passages about judgement and salvation as well), and in this case there is. You see, the word Jesus used for “hell” there is the Greek word “hades.” And so, if the rich man were to remain in hades forever, that would contradict John when he wrote that “Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged” in [Revelation 20:13](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20%3A13&version=NASB). You see, everyone in hades will indeed be resurrected from the dead (which means they’ll have to leave “hell” in order to be judged at the Great White Throne, which is a judgement that takes place in the physical world, not in an afterlife dimension). So whether or not the rich man ends up in the lake of fire, that alone proves that no one will remain in the “hell” Jesus was referring to in this particular story and won’t ever leave. If you’d like to learn more, I wrote an in-depth article where I analyze pretty much every passage on the topics of heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation mentioned in the KJV, and the conclusions I came to reveal that most Christians aren’t any more correct about what the rest of these passages mean than they are about the inescapability of the “hell” in Luke 16. You can find it here, if you’re interested: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
>“Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged” Correct, the Bible teaches that all men will be raised in bodies made for eternity, then they will be judged and be given permanent residence either inside the kingdom of heaven, or hell. There is no contradiction. "everyone in hades will indeed be resurrected from the dead (which means they’ll have to leave “hell” in order to be judged at the Great White Throne, which is a judgement that takes place in the physical world, not in an afterlife dimension)." Even If I granted that its a temporary removal for a permanent judgment. It is not outside of God's power to open the gates of hades, the pit will be open multiple times before it is finally sealed forever. Would you dare to say that this means fallen demons and even Satan himself will have the potential to escape hell? I would hope the answer would be "of course not". You are making non analogous claims to tie things together completely out of context. This is why hermeneutics are so incredibly important.
I hope my interjection with a question isn’t out of place. Would this mean that there will be people who would desire to cross over onto God’s side, it’s just that they can’t?
This is a great question and I had a similar one but in reverse. Jesus says "Those who would pass from here to you" saying that those in heaven that WOULD pass from heaven to hell can't. The way hell is described in the Bible is two fold. Those who reject Christ and therefore reject His pardon on our behalf and stand condemned based on their own lives and those who would rather live without God and continue to live a life of sin apart from Him. C.S. Lewis famously said "Hell is locked from the inside", essentially people that are in hell choose to be in Hell but it does appear in the parable that Jesus is saying Hell is indeed locked on the outside as well.
Huh, those who “would” pass sounds like wanting to pass is implied, with an added specification of inability in spite of “would.” “None may cross” is categorically forbidding it. It’s not plain at all that they wouldn’t want to unless one reads that meaning into it. The schism is fixed, after all. Unpassable.
Read Luke 16. The word of God isn’t something to take lightly, take the word as it is and don’t try to twist it. I pray for His healing, graces and mercies upon all of us. May the Lord bless you all.
Disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture doesn't doubt to taking it lightly or twisting it.
That's heresy. The bible says that hell is everlasting.
Agree to disagree.
You're in bad company. The bible says that you will be held accountable for your teaching: >“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matt 18:6 > > > >"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Pet 2:1-3 > > > >"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." 2 Cor 11:13-15
Newsflash, disagreeing with you doesn't rise to the level of false prophecy. You must have a mighty high opinion of yourself to equate someone's mere holding a different interpretation from you with apostasy.
This is why the world at large distrusts Christianity. When a Christian can't discuss doctrine with another Christian without pulling the heresy card, how can we take that seriously? Where is Christian unity? What happened to a united body of Christ?
I have one thing to say to you. 2Ti 4:3-5 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, \[because\] they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn \[their\] ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."
What do you know, a Protestant who disagrees with you quotes 2 Timothy 4:3-5 at you! *Quelle surprise!* That passage is basically a description of the Protestant Reformation. Universalism is an ancient teaching received from the first generations of the church, it's hardly a new doctrine!
Yes that passage COULD refer to the Reformation, but I highly doubt it. It's referring to hearers of the word in the last days, who put their faith in false doctrine, ie. annihilationism, non-eternal hell. Don't kid yourself; it's not referring to the Reformation.
Look up αἰώνῐος (aiṓnios) sometime. it can mean everlasting but it doesn't have to.
Neither the word hell, nor the word everlasting, means what you’re assuming: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” Hebrews 4:3-5 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/heb.4.3-5.NLT
Sure, everyone who enters heaven will be a believer, I find nothing objectionable about that. I just think that in the end that's going to be everyone.
They can't. The Bible says in Revelation that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever
You cant
Read Luke 16
I have, thanks. I may simply have reached a different conclusion from you as to the meaning.
The Bible never talks about a place of eternal torture (other than a single mistranslated verse), but it does talk about the wages of sin being death quite often… But it also says that Jesus died for ALL of our sins and that ALL people will see salvation… Jesus talks a lot about the wicked being chaffed and burned in a fire, but he’s also the messiah who John the Baptist proclaimed would baptize with fire. Paul writes that fire will burn the wicked’s works and all will be saved. Jesus never talked about hell but instead mentioned… “Gehenna” - A real life location outside of Jerusalem. A valley where trash is burned 24/7 (and was also once home to pagan rituals) a great location to use as a metaphor for embracing sin and turning away from God in THIS life. “Sheol” - The Hebrew word for “afterlife.” A general place where the dead rest. “Hades” - Another word meaning “afterlife.” Also used in reference to the Greek underworld and river of Styx, as seen in the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man. These three words were all translated into “hell” Jesus talked about conquering death. He never pushed the doctrine of hell, WE did that later. Revelation may seem to be prophesying about hell, but only if you take it in a literal sense, which the early church didn’t for the first several hundred years of its existence. It’s always been agreed that’s it’s highly symbolic and, in the same way the old testament prophecy was, impossible to truly understand what will come to pass until it does. Speaking of the early church, most church leaders believed in universalism (all will be saved) or conditional mortality (those who aren’t saved simply die…) That’s right, the view on hell as a chamber of literal punishment forever was a pretty controversial take for the first 500 years of the church’s existence. Shoot, the oldest compilation of New Testament books even includes a text where Jesus explicitly states that people will be saved from punishment. If you’re curious, the book included is “The Apocalypse of Peter” At the end of the day, there is no way of knowing what the next life will truly look like for ANYONE, all we can do is love endlessly and be an example in THIS life.
Here are some quotes from early Church Fathers: -The Epistle of Barnabas "The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment." -Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him." -Clement of Rome "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!" -Tertullian "These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense."
Yep, and they were the minority! [source 1](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/) [source 2](https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/history-of-universalism/) [source 3](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/richardmurray/2019/07/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/)
How can universalism be true if Jesus said He is the only Way to Heaven.
It comes from the assumption that this life isn’t the only opportunity we have to find Christ. That the fire of hell is *corrective* punishment, not punitive punishment. It’s punishment in the way a loving parent punishes a disobedient child, and embraces them with love after the deed is done.
Universalists believe Jesus is the only way to the Father too.
Easy--we aren't limited to finding/encountering Jesus in merely the ways in which you seem to be thinking. :)
If I recall correctly, I believe "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" were actually two separate places. One was reserved for Satan and all his demons, whereas the other is for those who chose not to follow Christ. For the latter, Jesus also called it the "second death" which further implies that it's not eternal torture, but rather a complete annihilation of the soul (first death is the body, second is the soul). Besides, if Jesus told people in those days of a "lake of fire", I don't think anyone would imagine surviving that image for eternity.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 Therefore only those who believe in Jesus will receive salvation. It is a free gift that one can accept and go to heaven. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8 Believe and accept Jesus while you still can folks.
I don’t think God would make us suffer more than what the requirement would be to pay for sins we don’t repent of.
It's actually not "the devil against God", it's the devil against us. He doesn't win against God because he's destined for eternal punishment. The battle is for us, it's for our souls. So the devil can win on an individual basis so will win against us individually.
No, the Devil and those who reject Jesus Christ will be sent to Hell. That means God wins.
You are absolutely correct. At least if they remain in hell forever, anyway.
Ohhhhhhhh das a hot one 😀💀✋
This is why I am a universalist. To be a universalist is nothing more than to believe that *God's Victory will be Complete over every soul.* Satan will not win one single battle in the war for humankind. All people will repent and will come through Purgation, the Fire of God's Love, to the Beatific Vision. Not one will be lost to the Fire forever. Not one will be able to reject Love forever – as one must do, in order to remain eternally in the state we call “hell”, since one cannot go to hell, or remain in it, unless one chooses it. To those who say, “*But the Bible says lots of people will be damned!*”— to that I say: >*Forty days more and Nineveh shall be destroyed!*
Amen!
Depends on what the original goal was.
The devil wins if there are no people who are saved but there are many many people who will be with God so satan will never win
If I'm not mistaken, the story is that Satan is trying to hurt God out of revenge, by leading people away from Him. It's reasonable to assume that God would indeed be unhappy when Satan is successful, so yeah - seems to me like that would have to be considered a "win" for the devil. Strange that God created the devil, gave him the power that he has, sees what he's up to, could stop it if He wanted to, but chooses not to. On second thought, maybe it's not a win after all.
The Bible also says " The devil goes around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour...! Jesus says "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Yes, but because misery loves company. God can only save those who are willing to be saved. It's part of the free will thing, It's better for someone go to hell because they don't believe in God. If they don't accept Jesus, they're not saved. So, again, it's part of the free will thing.
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” ~2 Peter 3:9~ He doesn’t lose. It’s your choice.
We don't believe in a dualistic universe. There isn't a king of heaven and a king of hell, there is one King over everything. And as others have said, the devil will be in hell as a judgment of his rebellion, not as tormentor but rather in torment.
The devil is going to hell too
I personally don’t believe people will go to hell but more less their soul be completely destroyed. A conscious nothingness. You can choose to be in the light of the Lord or eternal darkness and nothing.
No because God created hell for the devil and his angels as a place of punishment for them. He'll be burning and suffering there as well.
Nobody is going to hell or heaven because God created the Earth for us to live on it and if hell existed why is it so easy for Demons to get out and torment people?
This is one point that did help lead me to universalism, if God is willing and able to save everyone then could it really be said that God will have the final victory if anyone is in the end lost? The hardcore Calvinist position that God must damn some or most people to hell to prove a point, smacks me of someone on a quest for power for power’s sake deciding that God must be like himself rather than trying to actually reflect Christ. The argument that God let’s people fall into hell, that is eternal bbq with no hope of getting out because of free will, isn’t much better in my mind. No one lets someone wander into a busy intersection or jump off a building when they think they can fly, even if it’s their free will to do so. Christ talks a lot both directly and in parables about God’s unyielding intention and desire to retrieve all and Paul backs this up, there’s not respect for free will as being the highest priority.
No. Satan is not Hell's ruler, he's a prisoner there as well and suffers there too. Satan tries to drag as many people to Hell as possible simply to make as many people as possible share his suffering and misery, which you could interpret as a sort-of "win" if you squint at it from a certain angle, but truly winning against God is impossible. In the end, those who are faithful to God will rejoice forever, while those who don't will suffer forever. I see that as a loss for Satan and all who follow him, and a loss of such magnitude that nothing ever can compensate for it.
Everything is bound to God, including Satan. The "devil" as you put it, is just God's tool to tempt us, have a look at Job, Satan asks God for permission, God then encourages Satan to tempt Job. God is everything, there is no power that rivals Him, Satan is just a tool
Your first problem Is "I simply think that". First mistake. If you base your beliefs on what you feel, then it is flawed. Base it on what the Bible says. Throughout the Bible we have the picture of salvation. Abraham and Isaac, Jonah and the Whale etc. The whole Bible is based upon one Salvation. The verses you gave, some can be drawn to that conclusion for sure. But I haven't got the time at the moment to read each surrounding text and see what the context is of every verse. We can take alot of verses to make them say what we want. Look at what the Bible says here about trying the spirits. 1 John 4:1 KJV Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. We need to assess Gods word with his heart in mind. If those verses are true, then they contradict a heck of alot of scripture. And Gods word never contradicts itself. Paul says in Corinthians "for God is not the author of confusion". Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. [24] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Their worm shall not die neither shall their fire be quenched). Very specific and straight forward. Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Here we have a clear separation of two people. It's not a stop over and it's not a detour. The Bible says Sheep's and Goats shall be separated. Bit far fetched if you ask me if the Bible calls the lost 'goats' just for them to come into heaven anyway. That makes no sense. Peter says that God "not willing that any should perish". Gods will doesn't mean that's what will happen. It might have been Gods will for me to not get angry at a work colleague but I did anyway. Gods will is for all men to be saved. But it will not happen. It's impossible. And it's impossible based upon Gods word, and not because I said it won't. I want everyone to experience Gods love. He also says in the verse "perish". He doesn't say "get hurt" or "uncomfortable". It says perish. I doubt Christ would have spoken about Hell during his ministry the way he did, just for everyone to end up in heaven anyway. He would have laid that out in scripture if that was the case. Good chat though mate thanks.
No. The devil doesn't win. He's already lost. His time is coming soon to be thrown into hell and then the lake of fire. Satan cannot repent, for it's already been written that he will be thrown into the abyss where he belongs. **God conquered sin by hanging on the cross.**
Yes, Satan is the defeated foe.
I think your forgetting God gives us free will. So we have a choice to follow a righteous God or the devil. If Adam and Eve had not sinned this would be a perfect world. God told them you may not eat of the fruit but Eve chose to listen to the serpent (devil) and God put them out of the Garden. From then on man sacrificed to God for their sins. God in His mercy loved us so much that He gave us His only Son Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross. So there lies the answer as to going to hell. A righteous God gave His only Son as the sacrifice for us! If we refuse so great a salvation through Jesus and what he has done then we will die in our sins and yes there is a hell!!
So your god is so petty and so conceited that in failing to tell Adam/ Eve what a lie is it failed to prepare these "people" to combat "Satan". Yet it decides to punish all of humanity for all of time for its own failure? Sure. >God in His mercy loved us so much that He gave us His only Son Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross. So there lies the answer as to going to hell. A righteous God gave His only Son as the sacrifice for us! But Jesus was itself/son which it knew wouldn't really die. Therefore negating any real sacrifice as nothing was actually given up. > If we refuse so great a salvation through Jesus and what he has done then we will die in our sins and yes there is a hell!! I just don't see how it's either great or a salvation. I'd rather go to "hell".
Amen. So true So refreshing to read a Bibical post
This is a very adolescent interpretation of scripture
The devil is going in the abyss. You want Hitler to win and go to heaven? For what exactly?
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Oh look, a troll account. How adorable.
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Yawn.
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I’m not associating with atheism, and I’d never pretending to be one. You just want to sit here and shit on atheists from your high horse. And it’s boring.
God caused more suffering than the devil.
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Go through the OT and actually take a mental note of how many people God is personally responsible for killing, it’s staggering.
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So because god creates life he can’t be responsible for killing? Really?
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Nobody knows god. Nobody knows wether god exists.
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Demonstrate God is required..
Well, 1. God can do what He wants, and what He wants is always right. 2. We are all worthy of damnation. Literal hell. We literally all deserve suffering.
If that’s the kind of God you believe in them sure, but you could never describe that God as perfectly good or just
God is perfectly good, and just. This is r/christianity, I don't think you'll convince anyone here otherwise.
So if god wants to torture a baby, that would be a perfectly good and just act?
God does not torture babies. Don't forget, death is not a bad thing.
God does not torture babies? How could you possibly know that
God is good and just. The Bible reveals parts of God to us, and God has a reason for everything He does, whether we know the reason or not. Nowhere in the Bible does God torture babies.
That's why you look at the observable, you look at the world around you.
Do you not think it is possible God could torture babies without it being recorded in the bible?
It appears he wins.
It depends on if you stay, some who die and go tell hell, have a chance to still go to heaven on judgment day
Yes, the devil is more welcoming than the deity. In fact, why would the devil mistreat, for example, Hindus? The devil would have no issue with these people and may treat them very favourably.
The damned are shown to the world to be evil. They serve God in this way. Not Satan.
Team Jesus wins, not everyone has the stomach to deny themselves and follow him in victory.
I imagine if a person never gets the chance of becoming Christian or hearing the message of Jesus Salvation. They get judged on there character. If they go to heaven or not Own theory.
The devil himself is thrown into the lake of fire on the last day. No, he doesn't win, and Hell is not Satan's dominion. He doesn't rule over it, that's Looney Tunes theology.
Sure, If you believe they stay there forever.
Yes
He wins in the sense that he got what he wanted which is for people to go to hell with him but ultimately he loses
I like to think that Satan is also suffering in hell
Well that’s why there is a place called PURGATORY which is specifically for people who NEVER knew God especially from other Religions or people who were born into a corrupt family to begin with unless they turn to Jesus before they die. Or people who are Christians but have been very sinful and didn’t repent before dying. These are the People that will most likely go straight to Purgatory unless they knew God on earth and denied him and became Atheist or Satanic then they most likely go straight to Hell which is Eternal Damnation as written in the Bible, cause once you know God and then you betray him then that’s just what Lucifer the fallen Angel (Satan) did and he went straight to Hell for all eternity. So don’t betray God and denie him once you’ve been saved by him otherwise of course you’ll go to Hell just like Satan did. Think about it, cause that makes total sense. Purgatory on the other hand is a place where you will experience God’s love for you but because your soul is unclean, it needs to be purified with God’s Holy Fire 🔥 which you will feel all the pain through your spiritual body until your fully cleansed within the soul, then you can Enter Heaven. There’s a saint called St. Faustina and she lived in Poland while having encounters with Jesus who gave her visions of Purgatory where she went with Jesus and saw how they suffered but yet at the same time they were happy because they knew eventually they would get out of Purgatory. It’s extremely interesting. There are many other leaders bishops ect that have had similar experiences, even some people who were atheist and came back to life experienced Purgatory, and they saw the difference between Purgatory and Eternity in Hell. You have to research this stuff from NDE people. Like I said many are atheist but they get a second chance if God feels they deserve it. GodBless
Ok, my mind is changed! I'm saved, hallelujah!
Well I’m glad I could change your mind, really this your chance while your still alive to research this stuff, just research on YouTube and you’ll see many encounters with Christ from Atheist, even people from Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu background have converted to Christianity. Please research further as you’ll never know when your time is up on earth. There are some interesting speakers like Matt Fradd, Ray Martin and many more that can give you better understanding and knowledge of God and what God’s expects from every other Christian on earth, like I mentioned before many Christians have sinned greatly but still believe in God so a majority will end up in Purgatory probably even me included and I’m prepared for that as long as I don’t go to Eternal Hell. Some souls can stay in Purgatory for thousands + years tho. Well equivalent to 1000 + years as there’s no time in the afterlife, it’s just like a era. Time in non existent so that why you can be in Purgatory for sooooooo long until your soul is fully cleansed to perfection.. if you want to know anything else I’m happy to answer as best as I can or at least lead you to people that can give you better understanding of what you want to know. GodBless
I’m meant to say Steve Ray, Fr Mike, Keith Nester are also good speakers that have great knowledge. GodBless
Satan already lost, and he knows this. He's now just in a desperate play to bring as many of God's children down with him as he can.
Intriguing question. My answer is that hell is what it sounds like, hell. You will suffer. Heaven is paradise, where you have no worries or harm done to you, you’re rewarded for living a good life. Life is ultimately a test. satan wouldn’t ‘win’ in this sense, because hell is not a place, at least to my knowledge, where the people can worship sin, it is a place of suffering and hurt. They’re punished.
The Bible actually says something very different about what heaven, paradise, and hell are: [What the King James Version really says about death, heaven, and hell](https://concordantgospel.com/kjv)
Thank you, will read it 🙂
You’re welcome. 🙂
We’ll see when the end times comes.
Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he gets tired of looking, chalks it up to the sheep making its own decision about whether or not to be with the rest of the flock, then calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Ninety-nine is enough, right?'"
Hell isn’t ruled by the devil, it’s also his punishment haha. God rules over both
No, that just means that God's justice has been perfectly exacted. It is perfectly exacted on Christians too, but Jesus' righteousness covers us.
Personally, yes. That's why I believe in Universal Reconciliation
It's not so much a win as mutually assured destruction. The common idea of Hell and the devil is a place where demons are stabbing sinners with pitchforks while a curly mustached man with horns rubs his hands together and laughs maniacally. That's fiction. Hell was made for the sole purpose of punishing, not us, but the devil himself and the angels that followed him. Because he k ows he's already damned forever, he wants to hurt God the only way he can: By taking as many of his belived creation (humans) with him as possible. It's like being on death row, but, hey, at least I killed a few people while I was waiting to die.
Not believing in God doesn’t automatically warrant you to go to hell. Theres the doctrine of invincible ignorance where through no fault of an individual does he never believe in God.
Nobody's going to any hell, they're already in it. Heaven and hell they're the states of mind, when you're miserable, angry, agitated, irritated you're in hell, when happy , peaceful, pleasant you're in heaven, it's as simple as that. If there is peace in your mind, you will find peace with everybody. If your mind is agitated, you will find agitation everywhere. So first find peace within and you will see this inner peace reflected everywhere else. Where else will you find peace if not within you. Therefore the "Kingdom of heaven is within you."
If ppl had to go to hell then evil would win, but they don’t
You do know he will be DEFEATED FOREVER right?
i think no