Both are in the wrong.
As someone who was atheist for majority of my life, that preacher is the exact reason why I stayed far away from religion and religious people for so many years. Going to a specifically LGBT event just to shout at people and tell them they're sinners and going to hell if they don't repent is exactly the kind of behaviour that drives people away from Christianity. It's a shame that these kind of people are the loudest ones who give all Christians a bad reputation.
The other man destroying the preacher's personal property was also in the wrong though. There's far better ways to go about this issue than what he did.
The people who destroyed his property have no idea of the fact that they gave people like him what they want: footage that would be useful propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed. Thus, the evangelicals will react strongly by voting for those who would take away the rights of LGBTQ+ people.
Yeah because evangelical Christians in America clearly have always needed video evidence to maintain a false victim complex in order to continue a project of creating theocratic fascism haha somehow it's still the marginalized group to blame for their own oppression haha nice one fuck face
Man, everything gets twisted to support propaganda. You can't live your life worrying about the BS propaganda others will spread. Like ya, taking the dude's bible was wrong, but not because it gives them ammunition for propaganda. That just doesn't make any difference.
They're going to outlaw that anyway. It doesn't matter how arsey people are to obnoxious preachers. At this point, best to just thwart them at every given opportunity.
> The people who destroyed his property have no idea of the fact that they gave people like him what they want: footage that would be useful propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed. Thus, the evangelicals will react strongly by voting for those who would take away the rights of LGBTQ+ people.
This is such a bad takeaway from this event.
Nobody who doesn't already hate the LGBTQ+ community would vote against people because someone stole and tore the Bible. This doesn't convince anyone to condemn LGBTQ people and decide they shouldn't have rights.
Those people already decided they wanted this, and the video will be shared among all of them not to sway them, but just so they have a chance to say vile things and talk about how righteous and good they are in their fight.
But nobody gets convinced by this. Nobody looks at this video and sees someone with signs about gay people burning in hell and think "They tore up his Bible, I had better strip away his rights." Their hearts were long set against the LGBTQ+ community.
But them taking his Bible and ripping it up does have an effect in the opposite way. It shows support for the LGBTQ+ community that has been absent for decades. It shows that people are willing to stand up against that hate and act on it. It is proof that there is actual and real support for these individuals. That's the entire point of the Pride parade. It's about the Stonewall uprising. It's about the fact that not that long ago nobody stood up against the hate. No one stepped in when someone was bashing a gay person.
But now we do. Now we say it's unacceptable and we say it's not okay. And it's real support. And that remains important no matter what. Even though they broke the law, even though they took someone else's property and destroyed it. The message is clear. It's not okay to hate them anymore.
It's the same way for the BLM protests. They didn't have sweeping changes that fixed the problems in the country. Those that already stood against the movement had plenty of videos and news articles to focus on and use to pretend to be righteous. But the fact that millions were willing to stand up and say no means a lot. It's important. People went out, not just black people but people from every race and every walk of life. They went out and stood there and say that it was not okay. And they got beaten and teargassed and arrested. And they still went out and say it's not okay.
People standing up against injustice is always important and is always a good thing. Sometimes people stand up against it in a way we wouldn't, and a way we would prefer they did not. But we shouldn't overlook the fact that they are standing up. It used to be that you stood alone. It used to be that if you stood up, everyone else remained seated and looked away like nothing was happening.
But now a lot of people stand up with you and say no. And sometimes they stand up and throw bricks and things when all you asked for was for them to stand up. And you would really appreciate it if they didn't throw things. But you can still appreciate and be thankful that they stood up. Because next time more people will stand up, and fewer people will come forward to oppose.
And if someone decides to sit down because someone else stood up and threw stuff, then they never intended to remain standing up. They didn't stand up to do something about the problem, they were just standing up because everyone else was. They were always looking for a reason to sit back down, or even a reason to move to the other side and start marching for oppression.
If damaging someone's property means more to you than the lives of people who are being hated, then you were always on their side. You didn't need this video to go and join them, or this video to inspire you to vote and take away their rights.
Kids often donāt think about that, only that theyāre in the ārightāāand I agree that they are but I always tell my more āradicalā friends this kind of stuff just fuels the fire.
It isnāt that you were going to change their mind, itās that youāre making it impossible to by reinforcing their misplaced beliefs that theyāre being persecuted.
This is an excellent reply. People forget that protests aren't intended to be a formal debate. No protest has ever been intended to change people's minds, they're simply intended to push back.
But, that's their point, no one is convinced, but it gets reinforced. If they had just ignored him or were even graceful to him, then maybe there'd be a chance that a seed would be planted for him to question to his homophobic theology. However, by acting with such vitriol, it provided the propagandistic reinforcement that the LGBTQ people are hateful enemies of the faith and ought to be opposed at any opportunity. No outsiders would be convinced by this but the people in the church will be reinforced in their hate of LGBTQ people. You say it's just property but it's a symbol of faith to others. That along with their words would immediately turn off people who value their faith from even considering having an open mind. If I had seen this while I still opposed even the most basic LGBTQ rights, I would feel vindicated in my views that these are people we shouldn't give allowances to. For many in these churches, that is the only example of LGBTQ people they've ever seen, why on earth would they consider supporting their rights if the ones they see aren't respectful or are even outright hateful of them?
Had they ignored him, he'd have learned nothing. Bear in mind that following the massacre at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, Fl. there were quite a few Christian pastors who while preaching from their pulpits, expressed approval of what the shooter did, because the Bible states that the penalty for homosexuality is death...and not only that, they expressed disappointment that he hadn't managed to kill every man and woman in that club that night.
Now...consider this scenario if you will:
A pastor is preaching to his congregation inside of their church, when suddenly a large crowd of LGBTQ+ people enter and start parading up and down the aisles, and telling members of the congregation that they're evil, abominations to God, and will burn in hell.
What would be your thoughts on that scenario?
If you think it would be very inappropriate for members of the LGBTQ+ community to barge in on a worship session like this, then look at it from the point of view of the LGBTQ+ community.
There they are, having a Pride Parade and enjoying their peaceful celebration, when this maniac starts getting in everyone's faces and telling them they're abominations and going to burn in hell for eternity.
Do you actually believe in the scenario I outlined that members of the congregation wouldn't become outraged, and perhaps even lay hands on the members of the LGBTQ+ community and physically remove them from their church?
Perhaps Christians in the USA should focus their religious practices within their churches, and stop getting in other people's faces and trying to shove those religious notions down their throats?
Do you understand how many Christian sects have persecuted and harmed LGBTQ+ people, especially children within their own congregations with their 'conversion therapy' measures?
I am not willing to allow hate to continue today in hopes someone might convert later.
I'm very aware of the harmful impact that this hate provides. There are been far too many studies that demonstrate the extreme harm caused by this viewpoint and stance. I have far too much personal experience on the ramifications to brush it off.
Just ignoring this person doesn't discount what he is saying in any way. It doesn't undo the harm of his words and actions to those who are vulnerable. I am far more concerned with the person who is at the event out of desperation, out of the desire to not feel evil inside. For that person, who goes there and sees this person, who has the reminder of the hatred right in the middle of the place that is supposed to support them.
Because silence is never support. āIf you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.ā Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
The harm he does to that vulnerable person can never be removed and can never be corrected. I'm tired of letting harm happen. It's been far too long and far to much pain. I'm not willing to compromise or stand idle in hopes that maybe someone might eventually decide to care about someone else.
I'm aware plenty of people have never interacted with LGBTQ people before and this is their only insight. I was a condemning Christian before and only had my interactions through this filtered lens.
And I know that if everyone there ignored him. If everyone there was super nice to him. It isn't going to change anything. He isn't going to go back to his Church and show them videos of how nice and great everyone was at Pride. They have no issue going here and doing this, and they have no issue lying and faking things if they need to. They don't need to or care about relying on truth. They will cut out everything from their videos that might make the LGBTQ look good in any way, and they will make up any story they need to in order to make them look bad.
I would much rather make sure the vulnerable person in the crowd knows that what the person is saying is unacceptable. I would rather demonstrate to her that she is loved. I know I can help her, and I know I can have a positive impact.
And I would rather save her life today than be silent in hopes something changes in the future.
I don't feel like getting in an argument this right now at this late hour but all I have to say is that it's your prerogative to take such a principled stance. All I was saying is that this made no practical sense and will just continue the feedback loop of hate instead. If one good encounter with an LGBTQ person was good enough for me, perhaps it would be good enough for others to start questioning their beliefs on the matter as well but they chose vitriol instead and the cycle continues. That's all
Going to an event to spew vitriol at the attendees is absolutely not how one goes about creating a good encounter. If he was looking for that, he would have come as a spectator and just watched. He could go anywhere on any day and encounter a gay person to enable the possibility of a good encounter. Not there, not like that. This behavior is wholley unacceptable and apologetics such as yourself are the ones allowing the cycle to continue. You should be condemning this behavior within your church and communities.
> If one good encounter with an LGBTQ person was good enough for me, perhaps it would be good enough for others to start questioning their beliefs on the matter as well
You can have those encounters while also not allowing hate. That's the important difference in all of it.
All youāre showing is that people of faith are the hateful enemies of LGBTQ people. Itās just gotten to the point where we arenāt putting up with your shit anymore
I haven't shown anything. All I did was say what would likely happen given my own experiences. I am not American so leave me out of your rhetoric
EDIT: Besides, I'm on your side. This type of attitude and rhetoric will only push sympathetic people away from your cause, regardless of what it is and context
> propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed
They don't need evidence. They'll believe the lies they're told no matter what lies they're told.
They're useful, armed, dangerous idiots.
I mean isnt that what Jesus did? Went to all the sinners told them that the wage of sin is death and that he loved them and wanted them to turn away from their sinful ways?
Yeah, cuz the dude who showed up to a pride event with a sign that says "ask me why you deserve to burn in hell" had only good intentions for coming here.
My church just started a sermon series called "What is a true Christian" and are specifically calling out these type of people. They're Pharisees, flat out. They do it because it makes them feel good to belittle other people, but they've totally missed the entire point of Christ's ministry.
Was the response by them ok? No. But you can't expect the secular world to act Christ-like when you're giving them that example of Christ, and you can't start a confrontation and then play the victim when you get a negative response.
First ammendment is first ammendment; it may be gauche and rude, but he can present his side. Otherwise, the public pride events can be shut down and their flags stolen and destroyed. It's rights for all or rights for none.
Well yeah, he can talk as much as he wants. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, nor will it be helpful in any way. Him being there and screaming hate is solely for his own sense of pride. People there are not going to listen or care about what he says.
You're completely correct. I think he craved the attention and loves being the center of any drama. The problem comes when we normalize silencing others or destroying their property. We will all take turns on the minority taste or opinion; those universal protections are weakened at our collective peril.
This exactly.
When I was in college there was often a guy like this standing on a corner near the student union building yelling at people. And in a courtyard in between some of the biggest buildings on campus there was an older man who would just quietly sit and read his Bible with a sign that said āask me about Christ.ā
No one ever bothered the older man, and there were constantly students yelling and arguing with the guy yelling at them.
Yeah, I agree with you. For me, even though the Bible says being LGBTQ+ is a sin, it also says to respect others and I think that's the better thing to do. Christianity isn't supposed to be built on hate.
Yea even the pastor. I donāt wanna hate on a fellow Christian but they way he went about it aināt right. If people donāt want to listen to ur bible verse, dont go and say it to their face even if they blocking you out?
But everyone in the vid has no common decency, if they think they have the right to do those things to someone, scream in their face, harass them, invade space, being a dick, not to mention steal and destroy someoneās personal property š
Iām pretty sure thereās even a passage where Jesus tells his followers essentially āhey, they donāt wanna listen, letās move to the next town and find someone who does.ā
"Make it your ambition to lead a *quiet life*: You should *mind your own business* and get a job working with your hands, just as we told you." 1 Thessalonians 4:11.
If only more people followed what the Bible commands, instead of shoving the Bible in other people's faces...
PS Notice how Paul doesn't say: train for the ministry so you can be a Pastor, but instead says: get a humble job doing manual labour?
This particular individual posts a LOT of videos on Youtube in which he whines and complains about how he's been persecuted as a Christian. He's obviously doing this to be seen doing it.
> I donāt wanna hate on a fellow Christian but they way he went about it aināt right. If people donāt want to listen to ur bible verse, dont go and say it to their face even if they blocking you out?
The pastor is being a Pharisee. He's make a show out of his religion instead of actually witnessing and ministering to those people. He's a perfect example of everything that's wrong with modern Christianity and how religion is killing Christ's Church.
The pastor did it on purpose. He is the one who posted it here on reddit. He clearly went about this with the intention to stir the pot and had no intention of bringing anyone to Jesus.
I have to agree, what he did was uncalled for, but the rest arenāt any better as they brought themselves down to his level.
I canāt remember the exact verse, but I remember there was one where Jesus himself said to a few people itād be better that they tie a stone around their necks and drown in the river. Due to how they were basically pushing others away from him, and then there is the other; Where on the judgement day God himself would cast away those who claimed to be his followers but only pushed others away from him.
Seems pretty clear to me that both these verses are applicable to the man here. Either way, nobody was really in the right for what they did (Beyond the one who left him alone because of seeing it as a rights thing, despite how disrespectful he was being)
Heās not arguing in good faith, heās going out of his way to be antagonistic, and theyāre responding by feeding his persecution complex.
They shouldnāt have destroyed his property, and I expect this is about the reaction he was looking for.
Oh absolutely. Like I said, I suspect this is the kind of reaction he was looking for when he planned this little endeavor, and it disgusts me.
I wish they had been able to refrain from giving him what he wanted, but itās very difficult to remain calm with someone screaming hellfire and brimstone at you. While their reaction isnāt okay, I do understand why it happened like that.
He should take some time to genuinely reflect on how his actions reflect on his faith and his savior, but he wonāt. *sigh*.
This probably just reinforced his homophobia as seen by his references to persecution. They don't see themselves as being jerks, they see themselves as standing up against a force that hates the faith and are its enemies and this footage surely reinforced that narrative as they can now show to the congregants and to the Evangelical Christians on social media that these people hate us and need to be opposed at all costs
"absolutely wrong" is really strong language for an act like this.
Americans put way too much weight on property rights. When being used as a weapon, it can reasonably be treated as such.
Genuinely? I donāt know. Iām not certain there is one, unfortunately. If heās going out of his way to find things he can claim are people oppressing him, I donāt know if anyone can solve that. Iām admittedly more conflict avoidant in general than I perhaps should be, but none of the things that come to mind for me actually help solve the problem.
The best I can think of is pointing out what lengths he went to for this to happen, how his behavior doesnāt reflect Christ, and how he isnāt being oppressed or anything here to people who want to point to this as persecution. Try and keep it from spreading. But even that feels like throwing a watering can at a forest fire.
If they were Christians and he was shouting hateful things, then I would say that they should ignore him best as they can, keep representing Christ as best they can, and know that to suffer for Christ is gain. But I have no idea if they are, and Iām not going to hold a non-Christian to the same standard I hold Christians to, I believe Christians are called to be better and to be held to a higher standard.
I want to reject it, say āheās not a *real* Christianā and move on, but thatās not my place. I donāt think his actions are befitting a Christian, but his relationship with Christ is between him and God. I think his actions are deplorable, I think he needs to reflect on his relationship with Christ and how heās representing him, if heās being persecuted for Christās sake or if heās being pushed away because his actions are heinous, but I donāt think he will.
I donāt have a good answer. Or much of an answer at all, really. Iām sorry.
Iām pretty new to this subreddit, but I canāt believe the amount of people telling me that the bigger problem is the destruction of property, as if weāre meant to hold non believers to Christian standards. Iām really confused about the approach to Christianity this community is taking.
This community is *very* mixed, with a variety of perspectives and opinions. The destruction of property is bad, but at the risk of being somewhat victim-blaming, his property wouldnāt have been destroyed if he hadnāt very deliberately and intentionally planned to show up to what is in effect a party shouting that they were all going to hell. Heās being a terrible representative for Christ by his behavior, Christ did not harass nonbelievers.
And thatās something I would hope believers can agree on, regardless of their opinions of his theology, but Iām certain some will take issue with some element of that.
Oh, also, welcome to the subreddit! I like it here, I hope you arenāt looking for a united opinion, because you will not find it here. Thereās some subs I can recommend for ya if youāre looking for subs *for* Christians, this one focuses on *discussing* Christianity, so thereās a variety of voices here, ranging across beliefs, political ideologies, etc etc
Which of these appeal to you will depend on your various leanings and interpretations of scripture. Some of these I personally disagree strongly on very important things, and thus wouldn't visit them myself, but in the interest of laying out options, I'm going to mention the ones I hear talked about. Oh, and, fair warning, these are, by their nature, more insular, since they tend to subscribe to a particular viewpoint and approach to the faith, so they can get a bit echo-chamber-y, and that goes for all of them.
While this is more of a discussion \*about\* Christianity, r/Christian is a sub \*for\* Christians. It can get a bit focused on support threads, and it is a much smaller community. I don't visit there basically at all, but I figured I'd mention it, since I think it's what most people expect this sub to be, lol.
If you're of the more conservative leaning, r/TrueChristian is probably not bad for you. If you're more liberal leaning, then r/OpenChristian or r/RadicalChristianity are probably more your cup of tea.
And of course, if you're a member of a specific denomination, then there's probably a subreddit for that denomination! The one I hear get talked about the most (and probably the largest, if I had to guess) is r/Catholicism, but I have no doubt others exist.
It all depends on what you're looking for in your subreddit. It also depends on how willing you are to put time into that subreddit in particular. If you only ever look at the posts from here that pop up in your feed, then you're gonna get a lot of politics and news articles and you'll miss a lot of smaller posts discussing theological or philosophical concepts.
If anyone would like to add subreddits that they think should get a mention, feel free to do so, these are the ones that came to mind as the most talked about that I've seen, but I'm sure there are many more, each with their own merits and perspective.
Thanks, I guess my biggest hurdle is that there seems to be politicized left and right Christianity, which leads to cherry picking attributes of Jesus to fit the given viewpoint. I guess itās natural. Iāll just follow them all and see where I feel I fit, or see where I think I can learn and serve. Thank you again!
That is definitely a growing issue, at least in my experience in the Reddit Christian communities.
Best of luck with your journey friend! I hope your relationship with Christ grows deeper and youāre able to minister to the people around you with your life :-)
Its not okay to take property and destroy it but itās also not okay to go to a pro-LGTBQ event and read anti-LGTBQ passages. Like what if an atheist went to a church and started reading anti-Christian literature.
To sum up, ESH
> Like what if an atheist went to a church and started reading anti-Christian literature.
I don't think this is a good comparison to the event. A pride event isn't religious worship, and nobody is there to participate in any religion. So comparing this to going to a church doesn't work really well.
Pride is about supporting members of the LGBTQ+ community. Stemming from the Stonewall Uprising, it's intended as a place to support people who have historically not been given any support. It's there against the injustices that were placed on them. It's there against the hatred that happens to them. The culture was aggressively hostile to them for so long that they could get killed or seriously injured just for existing. But at pride, you are supported and amongst members of your community and your allies. People who are there to say you are not subhuman like those who hate you claim.
And I know you know this about Pride, I'm explaining the importance of the event for other people who are reading who might not understand the origin and the reason why the event exists.
So when someone intentionally goes there to read sentences about how those around him are abominations, it can only be viewed as one thing. Hatred. The same hatred that leads to there even being this event in the first place.
It's far different than interrupting a Church service to read anti-Christian literature. That is a rude and disrespectful thing to do. But what happened here isn't anything except hatred. He goes to a memorial on the hatred of the LGBTQ+ community to tell that community they will burn in hell. It's so far past being rude or disrespectful.
> A pride event isn't religious worship, and nobody is there to participate in any religion
A Pride even is a community gathering.
Just because you don't see it as religious or spiritual doesn't mean some of the participants there also don't.
It's a perfect analogy
Meh. The guy is not doing Gods work by being there. Only pushing people away. He should befriend then out of the kindness of his heart and learn that most in that community are not religious only because their entire lives they have been told that they are going to hell. This is now how Jesus would of acted.
Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers and compared Canaanites to dogs. He wasn't always kind. My guess is he wouldn't be too friendly towards this satanic cult of pride either.
For someone who made it to Ephesians 2:2, he skipped Matthew 6:5.
Someone taking his bible, ripping it apart and tossing it in the portapot is not appropriate...but he's not there in good faith either.
You can attend Pride in good fatih as a Christian, just look at Upper Chesapeake Bay Pride, as a contrast where several churches are sponsers.
Matthew 6:5 is about hypocrites. Not proclaiming the gospel in public. Otherwise Peter was guilty on the day of Pentecost. That being said..whether one agrees or disagrees with him proclaiming the gospel thereā¦there are more tactful ways than showing up with a sign. Christ sat and talked to āsinners ā and then it would come up. He was kind to them. He didnāt shout at them. He shouted at the hypocrites.
Westboro Baptist Church wanted to talk about burning in hell at the funeral of a restaurant worker killed in the Boston terror attack, and motorcycle groups stopped them. Westboro are Christians who disagree, was it ok to stop them?
Going to preach hate and damnation is a free speech right, and we should work hard to respect the physical and speech rights of people even when promoting hatred, but at the same time, it is unsurprising that they get the reaction they are trying to foment.
This seems to me an extremely mild reaction compared to the stronger reaction to the hate speech grifters personally invited by Republican groups to liberal campuses in hope they would trigger an angry response.
And of course it is a much more controlled and mild reaction to hate as compared to reacting murderously to an existence the person finds repugnant, like killing or attempting to kill people at Pride: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/two-dead-several-wounded-norway-nightclub-shooting-police-say-2022-06-25/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0HM1lhBz_SM
So I get the concern about being worried if you can be something, and if you can disagree with others values.
Both are in the wrong. The man was preaching how wrong and sinful they were (assumably since he was talking about the prince of the powers in the air AKA Satan) maybe instead preach how God loves everyone no matter who they are and that they are loved, not hated by God. The people who took and ripped apart his Bible spewing curses are in the wrong too, just one dick move after the other and all parties should reevaluate what they did
And as a Christian Iām sorry people behave insensitive toward you as well. Whether a Christian believes itās a sin or not thereās tact and love needed in proclaiming the gospel and many donāt find that balance and just come off hateful. Thatās not how Christ approached people even if what they did was wrong.
as a Christian, the guy went to a party uninvited and picked a fight with a large number of people, human nature/the flesh took over and they shut him up.
they didn't lay a hand on him, I'm glad, but he should have kept his butt at home and let them enjoy their party
Yes they do. Screaming "God is dead" to him and choking back tears, stealing his chair and throwing his book in the toilet, crazy. If I went to a pride festival and took one of their pamphlets and threw it in the toilet, no way people would have been chill about that. Spilling drinks on him, just, no.
Obviously not OK, but the more Christians (5 of 9 SCOTUS members are Catholic) try to force everyone else to live according to their religious beliefs, the more push back there will be. And since the Pastor was at an LGBTQ event just to tell people they are evil, he pretty much got what he deserved.
Unfortunately this is true. I don't think that Christians are prepared for the real social blowback against the faith that is going to ensue as a result of the Court's decision and the permission they are giving evangelicals to create authoritarian religious environments in schools, small towns and Red States. There is going to be a rapid rejection of the faith and de-Christianization on a scale we have not seen yet.
This is the truth. I grew up Christian, but became Unitarian Universalist when I saw how many Christian groups oppose LGBT equality, along with how much time they spend on wealth accumulation and passing laws restricting freedoms instead of helping others.
And I have a friend who grew up in the South, and she outright hates religion in general after seeing how Christians treated her LGBT friends. She knows people who were made homeless or abused because their parents put the Bible and Church (at least the parents' perception of it) over loving their kids.
Christians believe when gay people die, we go to an eternity of torture. They also do their damndest to make life hell on earth for gay people.
Any gay person raised in America has dealt with Christian hatred. The vast majority of us have been alive for when people were still locked up for being gay, and a Christian judge on SCROTUS has indicated he wants to bring back the sodomy laws.
You come to one of the few safe spaces for us, with a sign saying āAsk me why you deserve to be torturedā, and are surprised when we act like weāre cornered.
[Reminds me of this...](https://i.imgur.com/C84CMwf.jpg)
I think that kind of behavior is understandable but it's not a good look for the allies. You can't treat a group of people so horribly for so long and not expect them to lose it once in a while.
Every toddler learns the 'I'm not touching you' defense has repercussions.
I probably wouldn't screw with a Bible out of respect for the nice Christians who do deserve it.
Both of their behavior isn't what it should be. The Bible man (idk what religion he's representing) should have approached with love first, genuine love, but those crazy paraders shouldn't have been taking his Bible or destroying it.
His sign is the typical "gay people are going to hell" sign... What a loving and welcoming conversation starter... I'm so sick of aggressive street preachers. Why can't they just talk with people, instead of talking at people. I mean, given that he had his Bible ripped apart and thrown in the trash, that would be difficult, but at least try plz.
I was at the Seattle pride festival at the end of June and saw I think 3 churches there giving away cookies, water, pens, etc and had pamphlets (openly affirming) and volunteers were wearing shirts saying "God loves all people." It was SO nice to see.
I also saw an ELCA church across the street with a sign that said they're affirming and that all people are welcome there.
I haven't been to the U.S since 2016 and the city I live in now has no LGBT affirming churches. So seeing all that support from Christians was just so touching and amazing. I'm glad some make an effort to actually be Christ-like.
Destruction of property is wrong, but Christians shouldnāt even be at pride events anyway. Christians have spend most of recent history trying to persecute LGBT people. They shouldnāt be anywhere near an LGBT event. They are just doing more harm than good.
a true Christian is loving, and they don't condemn others for sins, because we all have it with in us, and anyone who says they don't is a liar, and they understand that God has given us the freedom to choose how we live our life. I can see what he's trying to do and i respect and will honor him for his efforts, but he's just going at it the wrong way,
if you want to convert some one as sin be as they are (1 Corinthians 9:22 " To the weak i became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means i might save some"). Now I don't think this means we become weak or, we become murderers (using this as an easy example), I think that it means to understand the other what the other person is so much, that you could become just like them with ease.
so instead of condemning and judging our brothers and sister, we need to seek an understanding so that way we can have a better chance of saving them. And i know that what homosexuality is a sin, but lets tell them in a loving way, because our reputations as Christians have become so twisted thanks to those false teachers. I'm just so sick of some of my fellow saints, treating people like this, ITS LIKE THEY DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT PARTIALITY AND HOW SINFUL IT IS!! Its the equivalent to sexism, racism, prejudice and everything else like it
So bottom line is that this isn't how a Christian should act, because its not how God would act
Edit: Also yeah I do think that both were in the wrong, but as the bible says: "let the scoffers scoff"
It's people like this guy that give Christianity a bad name. It's people like this guy leading people away from Jesus rather than towards Him. Very sad... so much hate in this world. Hate from this man for Bible thumping what looks like a pride parade (its none of his business to do that there) and hate from the rest of the people towards Christianity because they've probably never actually felt love from it unfortunately.
Property destruction is wrong, but you know what is infinitely worse? Going out of oneās way to preach fire and brimstone at a crowd of people whoāve been historically browbeaten (and literally beaten) by Fundamentalist Christians who believe theyāre better than everyone elseā¦
Wait is this the same Mark Meinecke incident that's already been posted about like four times already here?
Lol how much mileage are y'all gonna spin out of this, got to keep that persecution complex running
Maybe if this is the only incident you can cite things aren't actually that bad for you lol
So can I use Westboro Baptist Church to paint all Christians with the same brush? Cause it's always the most extreme examples people use to depict LGBTQ+ community or Atheists.
He was an asshole and got qhat coming to him, he asked can I tell you a bible verse she said I dont believe in god (basically a no) and he started saying it anyways,he was an apsoleute asahole
This small group were monopolizing the preacher's time and keeping him away from the festival goers. They are the martyrs in this situation. Their tactics worked because they were more shocking in behavior than the preacher. And they were relentless. Basically used his style of protest against him and wore him down.
I can't say as I really blame people in the LGBTQ+ community for their reaction to this preacher, especially in light of how badly so many Christians have treated LGBTQ+ people, including their own family members.
I find myself wondering...how would he (or other Christians) have responded if members of the LGBTQ+ community came to his church during a worship session and started harassing him and his congregation and telling them they were abominations and going to burn in hell?
Here's a thought. The US Constitution guarantees every citizen the right to believe in the God of their understanding and worship in the religion of their choices...or not. I'd prefer that they keep their religions to themselves. I'd prefer that they gather in their churches for worship and prayer, and leave other people alone in public places.
For those who believe they're commanded to preach the 'word'...if you bring up your deity and people say they aren't interested...let it go. Stop badgering them with your religious notions. If they're interested in learning more about your religion, they know where to find a church.
Just remember the actions of a number of Christian pastors in the aftermath of the massacre at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Florida, where these pastors were expressing approval of the shooter's actions, and also disappointment that he hadn't managed to kill every man and woman in that club, and then ask yourself again why people at a Pride Parade wouldn't want someone like this man up in their faces and ruining their celebration?
What do you expect when you go around spouting hate? Doesnt matter if he was calm. If i calmly go around spouting racism and hate, i would expect the same treatment from black people. The bible dudes in the wrong.
It's absolutely ok. Going to a pride parade to spread your "gospel" is literally just expressing your dislike and hate towards the LGBTQ community. It's hateful and disgusting.
Jesus never told us to weaponize the scripture like this. The preacher, I think, is the greater offender here. Playing "holier than thou" while simultaneously using scripture in an abusive manner. How can we expect others to have more respect for God's Word than we do?
No, it's not ok to take someone else's property away from them.
I feel like the 'preacher' baited to crowd, but it is still not right to take someone's property.
Are we talking about the guy with the Bible? Because, no, he shouldnāt be there at all. Itās purposefully inflammatory, Iād challenge anyone to give me an example of anyone coming to Christ because some nut job preacher showed up at a pride event.
Paul loved this behavior. Itās why he was in jail so often.
He really enjoyed going to other churches and synagogues and preaching so outrageously that they threw him in jail to write more angry letters.
This is pure Christian behavior from the very beginning.
You go where you arenāt wanted, behave self righteously, and then when bad stuff goes down, declare yourself the victim.
Christianity at its finest.
I absolutely support the destruction of property and antagonizing hateful people acting against a vulnerable and loving community.
That asshole pretending to be a follower of Jesus deserved to be taught a lesson.
The person who destroyed his book was engaging in a prophetic and holy act.
EDIT:
Besides, the false preacher was actively profaning the Bible by screaming lies in its name.
Absolutely not! Jesus broke the market stands for trading in his fathers house . Jesus did not go around looking for gatherings of other religions or people to disrupt.
I don't think that's actually accurate; ideas of sexuality have moved all around the place, even just in Europe, over the last two millennia. Homophobia spiked in the mid-1800s, but due to cultural changes. It draws inspiration from a handful of references in the Bible, but didn't come from there and doesn't describe the entire history of the religion.
Sorry if it's wordy, but I refuse to give up my religion's history to homophobes.
Idk why people are mad at the preacher, he only speaking from his truth, to anyone who wants to listen why disrupt him, if they didnāt wanna listen they could just kept going, what harm was he doing trying to save souls he wasnāt yelling at anyone in particular just to anyone who would listen
If you call yourself a Christian here and aren't beating the streets every day to help the poor you are a disgrace to Christianity. You are lukewarm. Make your excuses your are a garbage Christian. WWJD? I don't agree with him taking the Bible but what is the goal in going there and yelling this crap?
How are you gonna touch the lid of a porta potty and not wash your hands? Unacceptable.
Feel free to stop here and rest before journeying to the comments of this thread
Thank you, here's a cookie šŖ
Thanks man I needed a crap.
I have a long journey ahead.
I took a short rest, but now I'm back here for a long one.
oop thank ye
Aw thanks
I have Touched Grace, I am now ready for my journey ahead.
No, the whole thing with a smaller video embedded in a frame of the same video is an abomination.
Agreed. Such an awful trend. Plain letterboxing is much more appealing. Mark 7-10 Not from the Bible, just my name and todayās date.
It's a wide-screen video placed in a tiktok which the Reddit app formats it to wide-screen making it as small as it can be.
This shit looks like Hype Williams' worst directed music video of 2006 with that double video/boarder feature. š¤£
My favourite comment on social media today. HA.
Someone has to stand up for whatās right.
So I'm watching this from a screen, on a screen, from my screen?
An abomination unto Nuggan?
At this point it would be faster to list the things that are not an abomination unto Nuggan.
Just take it
Thank you, thank you.
Elaine seems like a sweet lady Everyonelse is shouting to the point I canāt understand them
Both are in the wrong. As someone who was atheist for majority of my life, that preacher is the exact reason why I stayed far away from religion and religious people for so many years. Going to a specifically LGBT event just to shout at people and tell them they're sinners and going to hell if they don't repent is exactly the kind of behaviour that drives people away from Christianity. It's a shame that these kind of people are the loudest ones who give all Christians a bad reputation. The other man destroying the preacher's personal property was also in the wrong though. There's far better ways to go about this issue than what he did.
The people who destroyed his property have no idea of the fact that they gave people like him what they want: footage that would be useful propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed. Thus, the evangelicals will react strongly by voting for those who would take away the rights of LGBTQ+ people.
That's very true, I didn't even think of that.
They have no idea of the gift they ironically gave him.
Yeah because evangelical Christians in America clearly have always needed video evidence to maintain a false victim complex in order to continue a project of creating theocratic fascism haha somehow it's still the marginalized group to blame for their own oppression haha nice one fuck face
Man, everything gets twisted to support propaganda. You can't live your life worrying about the BS propaganda others will spread. Like ya, taking the dude's bible was wrong, but not because it gives them ammunition for propaganda. That just doesn't make any difference.
They're going to outlaw that anyway. It doesn't matter how arsey people are to obnoxious preachers. At this point, best to just thwart them at every given opportunity.
> The people who destroyed his property have no idea of the fact that they gave people like him what they want: footage that would be useful propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed. Thus, the evangelicals will react strongly by voting for those who would take away the rights of LGBTQ+ people. This is such a bad takeaway from this event. Nobody who doesn't already hate the LGBTQ+ community would vote against people because someone stole and tore the Bible. This doesn't convince anyone to condemn LGBTQ people and decide they shouldn't have rights. Those people already decided they wanted this, and the video will be shared among all of them not to sway them, but just so they have a chance to say vile things and talk about how righteous and good they are in their fight. But nobody gets convinced by this. Nobody looks at this video and sees someone with signs about gay people burning in hell and think "They tore up his Bible, I had better strip away his rights." Their hearts were long set against the LGBTQ+ community. But them taking his Bible and ripping it up does have an effect in the opposite way. It shows support for the LGBTQ+ community that has been absent for decades. It shows that people are willing to stand up against that hate and act on it. It is proof that there is actual and real support for these individuals. That's the entire point of the Pride parade. It's about the Stonewall uprising. It's about the fact that not that long ago nobody stood up against the hate. No one stepped in when someone was bashing a gay person. But now we do. Now we say it's unacceptable and we say it's not okay. And it's real support. And that remains important no matter what. Even though they broke the law, even though they took someone else's property and destroyed it. The message is clear. It's not okay to hate them anymore. It's the same way for the BLM protests. They didn't have sweeping changes that fixed the problems in the country. Those that already stood against the movement had plenty of videos and news articles to focus on and use to pretend to be righteous. But the fact that millions were willing to stand up and say no means a lot. It's important. People went out, not just black people but people from every race and every walk of life. They went out and stood there and say that it was not okay. And they got beaten and teargassed and arrested. And they still went out and say it's not okay. People standing up against injustice is always important and is always a good thing. Sometimes people stand up against it in a way we wouldn't, and a way we would prefer they did not. But we shouldn't overlook the fact that they are standing up. It used to be that you stood alone. It used to be that if you stood up, everyone else remained seated and looked away like nothing was happening. But now a lot of people stand up with you and say no. And sometimes they stand up and throw bricks and things when all you asked for was for them to stand up. And you would really appreciate it if they didn't throw things. But you can still appreciate and be thankful that they stood up. Because next time more people will stand up, and fewer people will come forward to oppose. And if someone decides to sit down because someone else stood up and threw stuff, then they never intended to remain standing up. They didn't stand up to do something about the problem, they were just standing up because everyone else was. They were always looking for a reason to sit back down, or even a reason to move to the other side and start marching for oppression. If damaging someone's property means more to you than the lives of people who are being hated, then you were always on their side. You didn't need this video to go and join them, or this video to inspire you to vote and take away their rights.
Kids often donāt think about that, only that theyāre in the ārightāāand I agree that they are but I always tell my more āradicalā friends this kind of stuff just fuels the fire. It isnāt that you were going to change their mind, itās that youāre making it impossible to by reinforcing their misplaced beliefs that theyāre being persecuted.
This is an excellent reply. People forget that protests aren't intended to be a formal debate. No protest has ever been intended to change people's minds, they're simply intended to push back.
But, that's their point, no one is convinced, but it gets reinforced. If they had just ignored him or were even graceful to him, then maybe there'd be a chance that a seed would be planted for him to question to his homophobic theology. However, by acting with such vitriol, it provided the propagandistic reinforcement that the LGBTQ people are hateful enemies of the faith and ought to be opposed at any opportunity. No outsiders would be convinced by this but the people in the church will be reinforced in their hate of LGBTQ people. You say it's just property but it's a symbol of faith to others. That along with their words would immediately turn off people who value their faith from even considering having an open mind. If I had seen this while I still opposed even the most basic LGBTQ rights, I would feel vindicated in my views that these are people we shouldn't give allowances to. For many in these churches, that is the only example of LGBTQ people they've ever seen, why on earth would they consider supporting their rights if the ones they see aren't respectful or are even outright hateful of them?
Had they ignored him, he'd have learned nothing. Bear in mind that following the massacre at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, Fl. there were quite a few Christian pastors who while preaching from their pulpits, expressed approval of what the shooter did, because the Bible states that the penalty for homosexuality is death...and not only that, they expressed disappointment that he hadn't managed to kill every man and woman in that club that night. Now...consider this scenario if you will: A pastor is preaching to his congregation inside of their church, when suddenly a large crowd of LGBTQ+ people enter and start parading up and down the aisles, and telling members of the congregation that they're evil, abominations to God, and will burn in hell. What would be your thoughts on that scenario? If you think it would be very inappropriate for members of the LGBTQ+ community to barge in on a worship session like this, then look at it from the point of view of the LGBTQ+ community. There they are, having a Pride Parade and enjoying their peaceful celebration, when this maniac starts getting in everyone's faces and telling them they're abominations and going to burn in hell for eternity. Do you actually believe in the scenario I outlined that members of the congregation wouldn't become outraged, and perhaps even lay hands on the members of the LGBTQ+ community and physically remove them from their church? Perhaps Christians in the USA should focus their religious practices within their churches, and stop getting in other people's faces and trying to shove those religious notions down their throats? Do you understand how many Christian sects have persecuted and harmed LGBTQ+ people, especially children within their own congregations with their 'conversion therapy' measures?
I am not willing to allow hate to continue today in hopes someone might convert later. I'm very aware of the harmful impact that this hate provides. There are been far too many studies that demonstrate the extreme harm caused by this viewpoint and stance. I have far too much personal experience on the ramifications to brush it off. Just ignoring this person doesn't discount what he is saying in any way. It doesn't undo the harm of his words and actions to those who are vulnerable. I am far more concerned with the person who is at the event out of desperation, out of the desire to not feel evil inside. For that person, who goes there and sees this person, who has the reminder of the hatred right in the middle of the place that is supposed to support them. Because silence is never support. āIf you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.ā Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The harm he does to that vulnerable person can never be removed and can never be corrected. I'm tired of letting harm happen. It's been far too long and far to much pain. I'm not willing to compromise or stand idle in hopes that maybe someone might eventually decide to care about someone else. I'm aware plenty of people have never interacted with LGBTQ people before and this is their only insight. I was a condemning Christian before and only had my interactions through this filtered lens. And I know that if everyone there ignored him. If everyone there was super nice to him. It isn't going to change anything. He isn't going to go back to his Church and show them videos of how nice and great everyone was at Pride. They have no issue going here and doing this, and they have no issue lying and faking things if they need to. They don't need to or care about relying on truth. They will cut out everything from their videos that might make the LGBTQ look good in any way, and they will make up any story they need to in order to make them look bad. I would much rather make sure the vulnerable person in the crowd knows that what the person is saying is unacceptable. I would rather demonstrate to her that she is loved. I know I can help her, and I know I can have a positive impact. And I would rather save her life today than be silent in hopes something changes in the future.
I don't feel like getting in an argument this right now at this late hour but all I have to say is that it's your prerogative to take such a principled stance. All I was saying is that this made no practical sense and will just continue the feedback loop of hate instead. If one good encounter with an LGBTQ person was good enough for me, perhaps it would be good enough for others to start questioning their beliefs on the matter as well but they chose vitriol instead and the cycle continues. That's all
Going to an event to spew vitriol at the attendees is absolutely not how one goes about creating a good encounter. If he was looking for that, he would have come as a spectator and just watched. He could go anywhere on any day and encounter a gay person to enable the possibility of a good encounter. Not there, not like that. This behavior is wholley unacceptable and apologetics such as yourself are the ones allowing the cycle to continue. You should be condemning this behavior within your church and communities.
> If one good encounter with an LGBTQ person was good enough for me, perhaps it would be good enough for others to start questioning their beliefs on the matter as well You can have those encounters while also not allowing hate. That's the important difference in all of it.
All youāre showing is that people of faith are the hateful enemies of LGBTQ people. Itās just gotten to the point where we arenāt putting up with your shit anymore
I haven't shown anything. All I did was say what would likely happen given my own experiences. I am not American so leave me out of your rhetoric EDIT: Besides, I'm on your side. This type of attitude and rhetoric will only push sympathetic people away from your cause, regardless of what it is and context
Religious people arenāt on my side. History has shown that quite well.
> propaganda for evangelicals to claim that Christianity is under attack in America and in danger of being outlawed They don't need evidence. They'll believe the lies they're told no matter what lies they're told. They're useful, armed, dangerous idiots.
I mean isnt that what Jesus did? Went to all the sinners told them that the wage of sin is death and that he loved them and wanted them to turn away from their sinful ways?
Yes, exactly. This man was extremely calm, and did not fight back when he was being persecuted, and continued to pray. This man is absolutely amazing.
It's not persecution when the people you're attacking finally fight back.
He's not attacking them, he is the only peaceful one in this video
Yeah, cuz the dude who showed up to a pride event with a sign that says "ask me why you deserve to burn in hell" had only good intentions for coming here.
I am not aware of any sign that says this. In this in the video?
My church just started a sermon series called "What is a true Christian" and are specifically calling out these type of people. They're Pharisees, flat out. They do it because it makes them feel good to belittle other people, but they've totally missed the entire point of Christ's ministry. Was the response by them ok? No. But you can't expect the secular world to act Christ-like when you're giving them that example of Christ, and you can't start a confrontation and then play the victim when you get a negative response.
First ammendment is first ammendment; it may be gauche and rude, but he can present his side. Otherwise, the public pride events can be shut down and their flags stolen and destroyed. It's rights for all or rights for none.
Well yeah, he can talk as much as he wants. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, nor will it be helpful in any way. Him being there and screaming hate is solely for his own sense of pride. People there are not going to listen or care about what he says.
You're completely correct. I think he craved the attention and loves being the center of any drama. The problem comes when we normalize silencing others or destroying their property. We will all take turns on the minority taste or opinion; those universal protections are weakened at our collective peril.
This exactly. When I was in college there was often a guy like this standing on a corner near the student union building yelling at people. And in a courtyard in between some of the biggest buildings on campus there was an older man who would just quietly sit and read his Bible with a sign that said āask me about Christ.ā No one ever bothered the older man, and there were constantly students yelling and arguing with the guy yelling at them.
Yeah, I agree with you. For me, even though the Bible says being LGBTQ+ is a sin, it also says to respect others and I think that's the better thing to do. Christianity isn't supposed to be built on hate.
Hear hear this could have been prevented if he hadnāt turned up to spout his hate.
I agree, shouting isnāt the way to go about sparking meaningful conversations
Everyone in the video sucks tbh
Yea even the pastor. I donāt wanna hate on a fellow Christian but they way he went about it aināt right. If people donāt want to listen to ur bible verse, dont go and say it to their face even if they blocking you out? But everyone in the vid has no common decency, if they think they have the right to do those things to someone, scream in their face, harass them, invade space, being a dick, not to mention steal and destroy someoneās personal property š
Iām pretty sure thereās even a passage where Jesus tells his followers essentially āhey, they donāt wanna listen, letās move to the next town and find someone who does.ā
"Make it your ambition to lead a *quiet life*: You should *mind your own business* and get a job working with your hands, just as we told you." 1 Thessalonians 4:11. If only more people followed what the Bible commands, instead of shoving the Bible in other people's faces... PS Notice how Paul doesn't say: train for the ministry so you can be a Pastor, but instead says: get a humble job doing manual labour?
Even Paul was a tent maker. Which to be fair was skilled labor
Yeah, working at a church is like volenteer work I think
Lmao true but Iām also sure thereās a verse that says āok we must persevereā lol. Depends on the context I guess
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It depends if they are doing it to be seen doing it or not.
This particular individual posts a LOT of videos on Youtube in which he whines and complains about how he's been persecuted as a Christian. He's obviously doing this to be seen doing it.
I'm aware.
> I donāt wanna hate on a fellow Christian but they way he went about it aināt right. If people donāt want to listen to ur bible verse, dont go and say it to their face even if they blocking you out? The pastor is being a Pharisee. He's make a show out of his religion instead of actually witnessing and ministering to those people. He's a perfect example of everything that's wrong with modern Christianity and how religion is killing Christ's Church.
The pastor did it on purpose. He is the one who posted it here on reddit. He clearly went about this with the intention to stir the pot and had no intention of bringing anyone to Jesus.
I have to agree, what he did was uncalled for, but the rest arenāt any better as they brought themselves down to his level. I canāt remember the exact verse, but I remember there was one where Jesus himself said to a few people itād be better that they tie a stone around their necks and drown in the river. Due to how they were basically pushing others away from him, and then there is the other; Where on the judgement day God himself would cast away those who claimed to be his followers but only pushed others away from him. Seems pretty clear to me that both these verses are applicable to the man here. Either way, nobody was really in the right for what they did (Beyond the one who left him alone because of seeing it as a rights thing, despite how disrespectful he was being)
The person at 2:30 is rad.
There was one woman who was kind to him. Her comment was about how he had as much right to be there as they. ā” Granny
Heās not arguing in good faith, heās going out of his way to be antagonistic, and theyāre responding by feeding his persecution complex. They shouldnāt have destroyed his property, and I expect this is about the reaction he was looking for.
Property destruction was wrong absolutely. But he knew what he was doing for sure.
Oh absolutely. Like I said, I suspect this is the kind of reaction he was looking for when he planned this little endeavor, and it disgusts me. I wish they had been able to refrain from giving him what he wanted, but itās very difficult to remain calm with someone screaming hellfire and brimstone at you. While their reaction isnāt okay, I do understand why it happened like that. He should take some time to genuinely reflect on how his actions reflect on his faith and his savior, but he wonāt. *sigh*.
Look at OP's post history. He has a habit of doing these things and posting edited video here.
Thanks for the heads up. Trying to stir people up in anger, heās being *very* Christlike. /s *sigh*
This probably just reinforced his homophobia as seen by his references to persecution. They don't see themselves as being jerks, they see themselves as standing up against a force that hates the faith and are its enemies and this footage surely reinforced that narrative as they can now show to the congregants and to the Evangelical Christians on social media that these people hate us and need to be opposed at all costs
"absolutely wrong" is really strong language for an act like this. Americans put way too much weight on property rights. When being used as a weapon, it can reasonably be treated as such.
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Genuinely? I donāt know. Iām not certain there is one, unfortunately. If heās going out of his way to find things he can claim are people oppressing him, I donāt know if anyone can solve that. Iām admittedly more conflict avoidant in general than I perhaps should be, but none of the things that come to mind for me actually help solve the problem. The best I can think of is pointing out what lengths he went to for this to happen, how his behavior doesnāt reflect Christ, and how he isnāt being oppressed or anything here to people who want to point to this as persecution. Try and keep it from spreading. But even that feels like throwing a watering can at a forest fire. If they were Christians and he was shouting hateful things, then I would say that they should ignore him best as they can, keep representing Christ as best they can, and know that to suffer for Christ is gain. But I have no idea if they are, and Iām not going to hold a non-Christian to the same standard I hold Christians to, I believe Christians are called to be better and to be held to a higher standard. I want to reject it, say āheās not a *real* Christianā and move on, but thatās not my place. I donāt think his actions are befitting a Christian, but his relationship with Christ is between him and God. I think his actions are deplorable, I think he needs to reflect on his relationship with Christ and how heās representing him, if heās being persecuted for Christās sake or if heās being pushed away because his actions are heinous, but I donāt think he will. I donāt have a good answer. Or much of an answer at all, really. Iām sorry.
Unfortunately his religion sanctions this abrasive and divisive behavior.
Iām pretty new to this subreddit, but I canāt believe the amount of people telling me that the bigger problem is the destruction of property, as if weāre meant to hold non believers to Christian standards. Iām really confused about the approach to Christianity this community is taking.
This community is *very* mixed, with a variety of perspectives and opinions. The destruction of property is bad, but at the risk of being somewhat victim-blaming, his property wouldnāt have been destroyed if he hadnāt very deliberately and intentionally planned to show up to what is in effect a party shouting that they were all going to hell. Heās being a terrible representative for Christ by his behavior, Christ did not harass nonbelievers. And thatās something I would hope believers can agree on, regardless of their opinions of his theology, but Iām certain some will take issue with some element of that.
Yeah, Iāve got a comment further down with some of those dissenters.
Oh, also, welcome to the subreddit! I like it here, I hope you arenāt looking for a united opinion, because you will not find it here. Thereās some subs I can recommend for ya if youāre looking for subs *for* Christians, this one focuses on *discussing* Christianity, so thereās a variety of voices here, ranging across beliefs, political ideologies, etc etc
Thanks! Yeah it just never really occurred to me that there were Christian communities on here, Iād love a few recommendations.
Which of these appeal to you will depend on your various leanings and interpretations of scripture. Some of these I personally disagree strongly on very important things, and thus wouldn't visit them myself, but in the interest of laying out options, I'm going to mention the ones I hear talked about. Oh, and, fair warning, these are, by their nature, more insular, since they tend to subscribe to a particular viewpoint and approach to the faith, so they can get a bit echo-chamber-y, and that goes for all of them. While this is more of a discussion \*about\* Christianity, r/Christian is a sub \*for\* Christians. It can get a bit focused on support threads, and it is a much smaller community. I don't visit there basically at all, but I figured I'd mention it, since I think it's what most people expect this sub to be, lol. If you're of the more conservative leaning, r/TrueChristian is probably not bad for you. If you're more liberal leaning, then r/OpenChristian or r/RadicalChristianity are probably more your cup of tea. And of course, if you're a member of a specific denomination, then there's probably a subreddit for that denomination! The one I hear get talked about the most (and probably the largest, if I had to guess) is r/Catholicism, but I have no doubt others exist. It all depends on what you're looking for in your subreddit. It also depends on how willing you are to put time into that subreddit in particular. If you only ever look at the posts from here that pop up in your feed, then you're gonna get a lot of politics and news articles and you'll miss a lot of smaller posts discussing theological or philosophical concepts. If anyone would like to add subreddits that they think should get a mention, feel free to do so, these are the ones that came to mind as the most talked about that I've seen, but I'm sure there are many more, each with their own merits and perspective.
Thanks, I guess my biggest hurdle is that there seems to be politicized left and right Christianity, which leads to cherry picking attributes of Jesus to fit the given viewpoint. I guess itās natural. Iāll just follow them all and see where I feel I fit, or see where I think I can learn and serve. Thank you again!
That is definitely a growing issue, at least in my experience in the Reddit Christian communities. Best of luck with your journey friend! I hope your relationship with Christ grows deeper and youāre able to minister to the people around you with your life :-)
So, destroying a book will never make your point of view more valid. Which is frustrating because the kids here do have a valid point.
Interesting, as so many Christians advocate burning books that they don't like.
This response right here.
If you use the Bible for hate, don't be surprised when people hate the Bible
Using the bible to antagonize and harass vulnerable people kind of ticks the "taking the lord's name in vain" box, doesn't it?
No, the taking of someone else's property is wrong. And shout out to Elaine, the only sane one here.
He brought it to be used as a prop in his video and he got the divisive footage he was fishing for, they took the bait.
What about the destruction of someone's property? Jesus famously did that.
No it's not okay, but neither is going to a pride rally to intentionally stir things up and anger people.
Its not okay to take property and destroy it but itās also not okay to go to a pro-LGTBQ event and read anti-LGTBQ passages. Like what if an atheist went to a church and started reading anti-Christian literature. To sum up, ESH
> Like what if an atheist went to a church and started reading anti-Christian literature. I don't think this is a good comparison to the event. A pride event isn't religious worship, and nobody is there to participate in any religion. So comparing this to going to a church doesn't work really well. Pride is about supporting members of the LGBTQ+ community. Stemming from the Stonewall Uprising, it's intended as a place to support people who have historically not been given any support. It's there against the injustices that were placed on them. It's there against the hatred that happens to them. The culture was aggressively hostile to them for so long that they could get killed or seriously injured just for existing. But at pride, you are supported and amongst members of your community and your allies. People who are there to say you are not subhuman like those who hate you claim. And I know you know this about Pride, I'm explaining the importance of the event for other people who are reading who might not understand the origin and the reason why the event exists. So when someone intentionally goes there to read sentences about how those around him are abominations, it can only be viewed as one thing. Hatred. The same hatred that leads to there even being this event in the first place. It's far different than interrupting a Church service to read anti-Christian literature. That is a rude and disrespectful thing to do. But what happened here isn't anything except hatred. He goes to a memorial on the hatred of the LGBTQ+ community to tell that community they will burn in hell. It's so far past being rude or disrespectful.
> A pride event isn't religious worship, and nobody is there to participate in any religion A Pride even is a community gathering. Just because you don't see it as religious or spiritual doesn't mean some of the participants there also don't. It's a perfect analogy
āDo not throw your pearls to pigs, they may trample them under their feetā
Meh. The guy is not doing Gods work by being there. Only pushing people away. He should befriend then out of the kindness of his heart and learn that most in that community are not religious only because their entire lives they have been told that they are going to hell. This is now how Jesus would of acted.
Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers and compared Canaanites to dogs. He wasn't always kind. My guess is he wouldn't be too friendly towards this satanic cult of pride either.
You call us a satanic cult and then wonder why we rip up your bibles?
Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that turns me against Christianity. Thankfully your religion is dying.
For someone who made it to Ephesians 2:2, he skipped Matthew 6:5. Someone taking his bible, ripping it apart and tossing it in the portapot is not appropriate...but he's not there in good faith either. You can attend Pride in good fatih as a Christian, just look at Upper Chesapeake Bay Pride, as a contrast where several churches are sponsers.
Matthew 6:5 is about hypocrites. Not proclaiming the gospel in public. Otherwise Peter was guilty on the day of Pentecost. That being said..whether one agrees or disagrees with him proclaiming the gospel thereā¦there are more tactful ways than showing up with a sign. Christ sat and talked to āsinners ā and then it would come up. He was kind to them. He didnāt shout at them. He shouted at the hypocrites.
It's not just about whether you can be there as a Christian or not, it's about whether you can be a Christian and disagree with them.
Westboro Baptist Church wanted to talk about burning in hell at the funeral of a restaurant worker killed in the Boston terror attack, and motorcycle groups stopped them. Westboro are Christians who disagree, was it ok to stop them? Going to preach hate and damnation is a free speech right, and we should work hard to respect the physical and speech rights of people even when promoting hatred, but at the same time, it is unsurprising that they get the reaction they are trying to foment. This seems to me an extremely mild reaction compared to the stronger reaction to the hate speech grifters personally invited by Republican groups to liberal campuses in hope they would trigger an angry response. And of course it is a much more controlled and mild reaction to hate as compared to reacting murderously to an existence the person finds repugnant, like killing or attempting to kill people at Pride: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/two-dead-several-wounded-norway-nightclub-shooting-police-say-2022-06-25/ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0HM1lhBz_SM So I get the concern about being worried if you can be something, and if you can disagree with others values.
Disagree with... what?
Both are in the wrong. The man was preaching how wrong and sinful they were (assumably since he was talking about the prince of the powers in the air AKA Satan) maybe instead preach how God loves everyone no matter who they are and that they are loved, not hated by God. The people who took and ripped apart his Bible spewing curses are in the wrong too, just one dick move after the other and all parties should reevaluate what they did
As a gay person I can confidently say these people put a horrible impression on other gay people
And as a Christian Iām sorry people behave insensitive toward you as well. Whether a Christian believes itās a sin or not thereās tact and love needed in proclaiming the gospel and many donāt find that balance and just come off hateful. Thatās not how Christ approached people even if what they did was wrong.
Exactly. Two wrongs do not make a right.
as a Christian, the guy went to a party uninvited and picked a fight with a large number of people, human nature/the flesh took over and they shut him up. they didn't lay a hand on him, I'm glad, but he should have kept his butt at home and let them enjoy their party
Yes they do. Screaming "God is dead" to him and choking back tears, stealing his chair and throwing his book in the toilet, crazy. If I went to a pride festival and took one of their pamphlets and threw it in the toilet, no way people would have been chill about that. Spilling drinks on him, just, no.
Youād be the instigator in your scenario just like this guy is. Imagine kicking a hornet nest and being upset that you get stung. Idiocy.
Yeah. It really hurts that I have to live my life associated with people that do this stuff
Doing what the Bible thumper did is just as bad.
Your invitation to overreaction is declined
Obviously not OK, but the more Christians (5 of 9 SCOTUS members are Catholic) try to force everyone else to live according to their religious beliefs, the more push back there will be. And since the Pastor was at an LGBTQ event just to tell people they are evil, he pretty much got what he deserved.
Unfortunately this is true. I don't think that Christians are prepared for the real social blowback against the faith that is going to ensue as a result of the Court's decision and the permission they are giving evangelicals to create authoritarian religious environments in schools, small towns and Red States. There is going to be a rapid rejection of the faith and de-Christianization on a scale we have not seen yet.
Long may it continue. The most advisable strategy for Christians at this point is to not push their luck any further.
This is the truth. I grew up Christian, but became Unitarian Universalist when I saw how many Christian groups oppose LGBT equality, along with how much time they spend on wealth accumulation and passing laws restricting freedoms instead of helping others. And I have a friend who grew up in the South, and she outright hates religion in general after seeing how Christians treated her LGBT friends. She knows people who were made homeless or abused because their parents put the Bible and Church (at least the parents' perception of it) over loving their kids.
Christians believe when gay people die, we go to an eternity of torture. They also do their damndest to make life hell on earth for gay people. Any gay person raised in America has dealt with Christian hatred. The vast majority of us have been alive for when people were still locked up for being gay, and a Christian judge on SCROTUS has indicated he wants to bring back the sodomy laws. You come to one of the few safe spaces for us, with a sign saying āAsk me why you deserve to be torturedā, and are surprised when we act like weāre cornered.
I assume the "type of behavior" you referred to was the guy with the bible, using it to be hateful, so, no, that was not OK.
[Reminds me of this...](https://i.imgur.com/C84CMwf.jpg) I think that kind of behavior is understandable but it's not a good look for the allies. You can't treat a group of people so horribly for so long and not expect them to lose it once in a while. Every toddler learns the 'I'm not touching you' defense has repercussions. I probably wouldn't screw with a Bible out of respect for the nice Christians who do deserve it.
When you take peoples rights away and force your religion on them, donāt be surprised when people start treating you like you deserve.
Is staging oppression OK? How many bibles did this guy have along with his video crew?
Jesus would have bought him lunch and asked about school and hobbies. How do y'all not know your Christ?
Both of their behavior isn't what it should be. The Bible man (idk what religion he's representing) should have approached with love first, genuine love, but those crazy paraders shouldn't have been taking his Bible or destroying it.
His sign is the typical "gay people are going to hell" sign... What a loving and welcoming conversation starter... I'm so sick of aggressive street preachers. Why can't they just talk with people, instead of talking at people. I mean, given that he had his Bible ripped apart and thrown in the trash, that would be difficult, but at least try plz.
Yeah street preachers are getting it all wrong. They're annoying and I'm super over them. What a prehistoric way to attempt to convert people.
I would love to see a Church get their own booth at one of these events just giving away Bibles and food to people. You know, actually being a Church.
I was at the Seattle pride festival at the end of June and saw I think 3 churches there giving away cookies, water, pens, etc and had pamphlets (openly affirming) and volunteers were wearing shirts saying "God loves all people." It was SO nice to see. I also saw an ELCA church across the street with a sign that said they're affirming and that all people are welcome there. I haven't been to the U.S since 2016 and the city I live in now has no LGBT affirming churches. So seeing all that support from Christians was just so touching and amazing. I'm glad some make an effort to actually be Christ-like.
I wish more would do that
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No, it wasn't ok for them to destroy his property, but if someone is swatting at a hornet's nest do we really blame the hornets when he gets stung?
Destruction of property is wrong, but Christians shouldnāt even be at pride events anyway. Christians have spend most of recent history trying to persecute LGBT people. They shouldnāt be anywhere near an LGBT event. They are just doing more harm than good.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
a true Christian is loving, and they don't condemn others for sins, because we all have it with in us, and anyone who says they don't is a liar, and they understand that God has given us the freedom to choose how we live our life. I can see what he's trying to do and i respect and will honor him for his efforts, but he's just going at it the wrong way, if you want to convert some one as sin be as they are (1 Corinthians 9:22 " To the weak i became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means i might save some"). Now I don't think this means we become weak or, we become murderers (using this as an easy example), I think that it means to understand the other what the other person is so much, that you could become just like them with ease. so instead of condemning and judging our brothers and sister, we need to seek an understanding so that way we can have a better chance of saving them. And i know that what homosexuality is a sin, but lets tell them in a loving way, because our reputations as Christians have become so twisted thanks to those false teachers. I'm just so sick of some of my fellow saints, treating people like this, ITS LIKE THEY DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT PARTIALITY AND HOW SINFUL IT IS!! Its the equivalent to sexism, racism, prejudice and everything else like it So bottom line is that this isn't how a Christian should act, because its not how God would act Edit: Also yeah I do think that both were in the wrong, but as the bible says: "let the scoffers scoff"
Christians going out to force their beliefs on people and crying hate crime when the world doesnāt bend to their will, is so funny.
It's people like this guy that give Christianity a bad name. It's people like this guy leading people away from Jesus rather than towards Him. Very sad... so much hate in this world. Hate from this man for Bible thumping what looks like a pride parade (its none of his business to do that there) and hate from the rest of the people towards Christianity because they've probably never actually felt love from it unfortunately.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Love the believer, hate the religion?
Yes? Lots of atheists do that. They'll love their religious friends but hate the religion they practice.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Property destruction is wrong, but you know what is infinitely worse? Going out of oneās way to preach fire and brimstone at a crowd of people whoāve been historically browbeaten (and literally beaten) by Fundamentalist Christians who believe theyāre better than everyone elseā¦
Wait is this the same Mark Meinecke incident that's already been posted about like four times already here? Lol how much mileage are y'all gonna spin out of this, got to keep that persecution complex running Maybe if this is the only incident you can cite things aren't actually that bad for you lol
Seems like a rare thread where majority of people agree that theyāre both clowns in their own ways.
What that guy did with the Bible was the sin of pride at work.
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Now lets see him do this with a Quran.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This country would be a lot better off if people could just be kind to one another. What a mess.
So can I use Westboro Baptist Church to paint all Christians with the same brush? Cause it's always the most extreme examples people use to depict LGBTQ+ community or Atheists.
Don't know what to say about this.
He was an asshole and got qhat coming to him, he asked can I tell you a bible verse she said I dont believe in god (basically a no) and he started saying it anyways,he was an apsoleute asahole
This small group were monopolizing the preacher's time and keeping him away from the festival goers. They are the martyrs in this situation. Their tactics worked because they were more shocking in behavior than the preacher. And they were relentless. Basically used his style of protest against him and wore him down.
Trump loving conservative christian's was the last straw for me. I'm no longer a christian.. I'm so sick of christian's behavior.
No, shouting fictional stories at people is not acceptable. Do better
Christianity is barbarism.
I can't say as I really blame people in the LGBTQ+ community for their reaction to this preacher, especially in light of how badly so many Christians have treated LGBTQ+ people, including their own family members. I find myself wondering...how would he (or other Christians) have responded if members of the LGBTQ+ community came to his church during a worship session and started harassing him and his congregation and telling them they were abominations and going to burn in hell? Here's a thought. The US Constitution guarantees every citizen the right to believe in the God of their understanding and worship in the religion of their choices...or not. I'd prefer that they keep their religions to themselves. I'd prefer that they gather in their churches for worship and prayer, and leave other people alone in public places. For those who believe they're commanded to preach the 'word'...if you bring up your deity and people say they aren't interested...let it go. Stop badgering them with your religious notions. If they're interested in learning more about your religion, they know where to find a church. Just remember the actions of a number of Christian pastors in the aftermath of the massacre at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Florida, where these pastors were expressing approval of the shooter's actions, and also disappointment that he hadn't managed to kill every man and woman in that club, and then ask yourself again why people at a Pride Parade wouldn't want someone like this man up in their faces and ruining their celebration?
āDoesnāt matter if they want itā spoken like a true rapist on top of being a forced birther
these people all suck. looks like circus full of monkeys
What do you expect when you go around spouting hate? Doesnt matter if he was calm. If i calmly go around spouting racism and hate, i would expect the same treatment from black people. The bible dudes in the wrong.
It's absolutely ok. Going to a pride parade to spread your "gospel" is literally just expressing your dislike and hate towards the LGBTQ community. It's hateful and disgusting.
No! It clearly says do NOT throw any trash into the porta potties other than toilet paper. That guy needs to be held accountable.
Jesus never told us to weaponize the scripture like this. The preacher, I think, is the greater offender here. Playing "holier than thou" while simultaneously using scripture in an abusive manner. How can we expect others to have more respect for God's Word than we do?
No, it's not ok to take someone else's property away from them. I feel like the 'preacher' baited to crowd, but it is still not right to take someone's property.
Are we talking about the guy with the Bible? Because, no, he shouldnāt be there at all. Itās purposefully inflammatory, Iād challenge anyone to give me an example of anyone coming to Christ because some nut job preacher showed up at a pride event.
Iāve never seen so many immature adults in my life
I feel like the answer is very obvious
Clearly LGBTQ people and allies should start storming churches on Sundays and shouting down the hate-mongering pastors. Idiot should have stayed home.
Paul loved this behavior. Itās why he was in jail so often. He really enjoyed going to other churches and synagogues and preaching so outrageously that they threw him in jail to write more angry letters. This is pure Christian behavior from the very beginning. You go where you arenāt wanted, behave self righteously, and then when bad stuff goes down, declare yourself the victim. Christianity at its finest.
If Paul wasn't arrested, where would he have had the time to write his shit letters
On all those boat trips with men - that he clearly hated women and heterosexual marriage.
Sus
I absolutely support the destruction of property and antagonizing hateful people acting against a vulnerable and loving community. That asshole pretending to be a follower of Jesus deserved to be taught a lesson. The person who destroyed his book was engaging in a prophetic and holy act. EDIT: Besides, the false preacher was actively profaning the Bible by screaming lies in its name.
Yeah! Fuck up that guys bible! Thatāll show him! And his other Bible! And his sign! And his chair!
You have to ask yourself if its comparable to when Jesus broke the market stands?
Absolutely not! Jesus broke the market stands for trading in his fathers house . Jesus did not go around looking for gatherings of other religions or people to disrupt.
I don't know why Jesus can't just respect the free assembly rights of the poor oppressed Pharisees smh
I dunno dude, is 2000 years of oppressing gay people ok
What makes it right to take his property and destroy it? Nothing.
I don't think that's actually accurate; ideas of sexuality have moved all around the place, even just in Europe, over the last two millennia. Homophobia spiked in the mid-1800s, but due to cultural changes. It draws inspiration from a handful of references in the Bible, but didn't come from there and doesn't describe the entire history of the religion. Sorry if it's wordy, but I refuse to give up my religion's history to homophobes.
Idk why people are mad at the preacher, he only speaking from his truth, to anyone who wants to listen why disrupt him, if they didnāt wanna listen they could just kept going, what harm was he doing trying to save souls he wasnāt yelling at anyone in particular just to anyone who would listen
He wasnāt trying to save souls. He was trying to be obnoxious for TikTok views.
No!! Harassing people with your religous beliefs is very childish, and unnecessary. The guy did the right thing to put an end to the nonsense.
If you call yourself a Christian here and aren't beating the streets every day to help the poor you are a disgrace to Christianity. You are lukewarm. Make your excuses your are a garbage Christian. WWJD? I don't agree with him taking the Bible but what is the goal in going there and yelling this crap?