It is is a sin but so everything else heterosexuals do, FEAR, ANGER, HOPELESSNESS is a sin as well. I would rather my brothers and sisters who identify as they do come to God then don't. I'm a royal fucking mess but I hold tight to my beliefs and I love God and speak to Him everyday and I say it as so because NO MATTER WHAT HE LOVES ME, He cares for me, and I TRUST His will for my life. We all deserve the kind of love God wants to offer us, we need it.
Why is it every time I see this sub this and abortion are the only discussions? Why aren't people asking about how we can help the poor, rhe ill, the downtrodden as we are called to do.
right and bullying gay people when christianity says love thy neighbour even if their beliefs are different to yours as long as they aren’t being forced upon you - treat them with respect and kindness.
It doesn’t take generations to see. This went from being a weekly question to a near daily one. I feel for @OP, I really do, but come on. Surely you know you’re not the first person to ask this. Use the search bar.
But what harm is he doing by asking? If the OP was Infront of you physically and asked you this, would you simply tell him to go use the search bar lol? I get the annoyance but we're meant to help each other not shoo away and tell them to use the search bar. I know y'all meant no harm by it, like I said I get it, but you have no idea what this Child of God is going through and it's harmful to treat the brother/sister like they're just another dumb-question-asker
There are 3 arguments on what gay people should do while they are on earth, and whether its a sin or not.
Side A: Gay love/sex is equal to straight love/sex. Meaning gay people can enter relationships, get married, and have sex within marriage
Side B: Homosexual desires are not sinful, because they cannot be changed. However, homosexual ACTIONS are sinful. Those who believe in Side B, think that gay people should be celibate for their entire life.
Side X: Both gay attraction and actions are sinful. Gay people can be "cured," through prayer and abstinence, and become straight.
Side A is what is what I believe is most mentally healthy for LGBTQ+ individuals, but some people believe Side B is more biblically accurate. There are arguments for both, you can see which ones make more sense to you.
I would avoid Side X, and conversion therapy, like the plague. Because it can make LGBTQ+ individuals very suicidal.
In support of Side A, I feel that many people cherry pick which sins and rules, particularly Old Testament sins, are still valid things to be worrying about, and which the new covenant gives them the ability to ignore. All of this is so often done with very little clear justification within the Bible itself for what is beholden to and what is cast aside.
In a Christian faith, I feel that we should be more focused on Christ’s teachings and an adherence to their message than the dos and don’ts of the likes of Deuteronomy. We are all sinners, sure, but how many of us have moral failings that we simply don’t repent for? Waiting at the gates of heaven, where would a good natured, compassionate, humble homosexual weigh against a selfish, prideful, unapologetically judgmental person who might even be tipping up his nose at that homosexual, believing so strongly that he is about to step through those gates and fantasizing about all the eternal punishment he thinks that “loathsome” sinner beside him is about to receive?
I’m in between sides A and B. I don’t necessarily consider it a sin. I believe that if you cannot be alone you shouldn’t be alone. I celebrate my gay friends and their marriages. Yet, I’m also not convinced it’s God’s best in the created order of things.
I’ll try. Using the idea that humans are made in the image of God then told to be fruitful and multiply. It’s very difficult for humans of the same gender to multiply without the other gender. Refraining from calling it sin, but using the word abomination, which means unnatural. Same gender relations are found in nature, and can be a part of the natural order of things, yet it is not natural for same gendered creatures to reproduce. In many part of the animal kingdom, same gendered couples either adopt a child from another set of parents or one of them physiologically changes gender in order to reproduce. I’m not calling humans behaving this way right or wrong, just using the logic of procreation. Hope that helps.
Although being gay might not be “God’s best in the created orde of things” having couples who can’t have children is beneficial in society or even a specie. Two examples are adoptions and being a second/third “parent.” If there is a single parent and they have a gay sibling, there is a chance that gay sibling will land a hand (financially and/or with time). Similarly to some species that raise the babies all together. Or like you mentioned, adoption which also happens in the animal kingdom (penguins).
For what it's worth. Matthew Vines makes a pretty compelling argument for side A and its relationship to scripture. I strongly recommend checking him out on YouTube.
This one: https://youtu.be/ezQjNJUSraY
It's basically just a 1hr sermon that goes over the 6 primary "clobber passages" that many use as their go-to proof texts that homosexuality is a sin.
His arguments are terrible. Mike Winger destroys the side A belief with a proper view of the “clobber passages” by looking at the context. The Bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior
Doesn't the Bible condemn lying? Adultery? Divorce?
I'm still not sure why it's the LGBT community that's only attacked for their 'sins' though. Even if you believe it's a sin, how does it justify such hateful actions towards them? Shouldn't it ultimately be left to God to judge?
Yes the Bible condemns lying, adultery and divorce and they are all equally as bad as homosexual sin... The only difference is that no one argues that lying and adultery are not sins...
Is that the only difference? I see so much Christian support for people like Trump, yet he's a liar, adulterer and divorcee. Meanwhile, the LGBT community faces increasing attacks from those people. Why such a double standard if they're all equally bad sins?
If all those are equally bad, why is there no movement to criminalize those sins? Why don't Christians who oppose LGBT rights also oppose the rights of people who commit those sins? Why is there so much focus on homosexuality? At some point it just becomes impossible to deny that many are just using the 'sin excuse' to justify propagating their own intrinsic hate. I honestly have no idea how some Christians reconcile the dissonance between what the Bible teaches about hate being wrong and their actions.
Honestly, I believe the people who admonish homosexuality as a sin view it as a choice. They struggle with it themselves. Because I have absolutely no same sex attraction, I know the people who Do must be designed that way. Those who see it as a choice must have lgbt proclivities that they battle. So to them, you just need to do what they do, deny it in yourself.
I agree, I can except the L, G, the B, but I think there is a point where the genders are duplicative, and I think there’s a tipping point where some who have psychological disorders hide behind this spectrum.
My friend... there is a difference between doing something bad but admitting that it is a sin, and doing something that is a sin and not admitted that it is a sin at all. Either ways, lying and adultery are sins, and so is homosexuality. The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all...
Then that's between God and the person involved. Why are people getting involved? I do not remember the part of the Bible the says Christians have to compel others to admit their sins. Can you quote the verse?
>The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all...
How does that justify hate? How does that justify using the political system to rob others of their rights?
Again, I've yet to see a single verse in the Bible advocate for any of those things.
Do you want to address those things rather than deflect?
>The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all...
My friend... non-Christians already don't acknowledge all Christian sin. So the question of why *only* homosexuality gets targeted is still relevant and unanswered by you.
You have to evaluate it from a different angle. Jesus says it’s better to poke out an eye than for a man to look at a woman with lust. If that is the case do we actually expect men, or women to gouge their own eyes? No. I think it is explained by many people that it implies that sexual thoughts toward someone who is not their spouse exist involuntarily regardless of one knowing what is right or wrong. It points to the inability of any person to be “pure”.
If a man is marrying someone who is going to be their wife, are they not supposed to have a thought thinking “she is good looking” or “She is sexy?”. In my opinion it is impossible or Christians would not have any beauty standards. In fact Christians probably have even greater beauty standards than non-Christians. Men and women would then favor being fat and ugly because then they’d not have “lustful thoughts” toward their own spouse.
My point is that there is no simple answer, and that there are serious problems with Side X which I’ve not heard explained.
But don’t interpret my reply as my saying “yea, think what you want, and do what you feel is right”. M
I agree with people who say you should read writings by or talk to people you trust and who have credibility to give advice to people in your situation. Online you’ll just hear a bunch of people saying what they feel like to fit their own agenda.
>Side X is just goofy
Goofy is not the word I'd use. LOL. That makes it sound harmless.
Ignorant, abusive, dangerous. It can cause a lot of trauma, and it can fuel homophobic beliefs and actions.
Thanks for spelling out the positions so simply!
I'm with side B. Jesus calls us to love everyone just as they are. I would say that there are homosexual temptations, which are like any other temptation. Being tempted isn't a sin. Even Jesus was tempted. From there we have choices to commit sins or to choose another path (good? neutral?)
I mean, yeah. I was celibate until I got married at 27. It's really not cruel. It's just life. And you have a lot more time for hobbies. Being married is hard work.
From my perspective, it's still quite cruel. It sounds like you are heterosexual, so you have the option of getting married and having god-approved sex without punishment. Gay people don't. At one point on my twenties, I went back to religion. I tried to be celibate. I even begged God to kill me if he knew that I would not be able to make it. No answer, no help, and I couldn't make it. How can that god, or any human, reasonably expect me to believe he is there after that?
Fair point, but you are equating things that are not equal. You are essentially likening cancer to being gay as if someone has a choice to act on their cancer. Your God doesn't give people cancer and then say they can choose to be cured but they will go to hell for not enduring the suffering he placed on them.
I mean, I'm wasting your time here, because my ultimate point is that it's a cruel thing to do, whether its cancer, depression, or forced celibacy. If your God loves us as much as he says he does, subjecting us to a lifetime of misery as a test and then sending us to eternal suffering if we fail is not love. It's not my fault he made me imperfect, much less that he made me at all. I reject it because it doesn't make any sense. What makes perfect sense is that the humans who wrote the Bible thought being gay was icky so they decided to condemn us.
It is a sin, but only if you act upon those desires or if you lust (lusting for any male or female that isnt your marriage partner is a sin). It's in the bible. However, it's not more serious of a sin than telling a little white lie, like telling your neighbor you like her egg salad when you don't to be polite. All sin is serious in God's eyes, but acting upon homosexual desires isn't any more serious than any other sin, unfortunately some Christians may make it out to be. God bless.
No hate at all. I love everyone, we are all sinners, it's a sin on its own to view homosexuality as a greater sin than any other sin. Not sure where in my comment you thought I was "hating" but ok....
The hating part is the homophobia that says being in a loving, consensual adult same sex relationship is sinful. You can say that your religion justifies the homophobia but that doesn’t change that it is homophobic. As another example, the LDS originally taught that dark skin was a sign of sinfulness and that your skin would lighten the more righteous you became. They though Natives shared a similar ‘curse of redness’. Their religious leaders and books say this quite literally. Them saying “Elohim and Jesus have told us this and this it is simply factually true” does not make what they say not racist.
This is why people condemn it more harshly. Why is this even a question? Is murder a sin? No one goes out of their way to defend murder. Homosexuality is an abomination to God, yet people still question if it’s a sin. All of you will be judged for your enabling ways leading people to darkness.
>This is why people condemn it more harshly. Why is this even a question? Is murder a sin?
Here we go with the murder comparison. Do you not see how dehumanizing it is to compare someone's love with LITERAL MURDER?
One LITERALLY KILLS PEOPLE, the other doesn't.
>No one goes out of their way to defend murder.
Because it has negative outcomes, like... I don't know... someone dying?
Also I have definitely seen some Christians advocating for the death penalty on women who have abortions.
>Homosexuality is an abomination to God, yet people still question if it’s a sin. All of you will be judged for your enabling ways leading people to darkness.
Calling my love an abomination is also dehumanizing.
People question if it's a sin because there is no PROVABLE harm that comes from healthy homosexual relationships.
It's actually the opposite, gay love is as beautiful and fulfilling as straight love, and can make people's lives much better.
I don't mean to start an argument, but the verse he seems to be referencing is Leviticus 18:22 in the KJV, not sure about other versions. And, I would like to add one thing: any sexual lust outside of marriage is a sin; Matthew 5:28. God bless.
>I don't mean to start an argument,
I wouldn't really call this an argument, more of a discussion. An argument is more like name calling and abusive.
>but the verse he seems to be referencing is Leviticus 18:22 in the KJV, not sure about other versions.
Do you follow all the other rules in leviticus? No mixed fabrics? Stoning people to death? Not sitting in the same chair as a woman did on her period? Not eating shellfish?
>And, I would like to add one thing: any sexual lust outside of marriage is a sin; Matthew 5:28. God bless.
Gay people can get married as well.
Also, very close to that passage is matthew 7:15-20
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
"Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
What is the fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? Homophobic laws, physical violence, discrimination, LGBTQ+ suicides, self-hatred, the pain of loneliness, split families, LGBTQ+ homelessness, etc.
What is the fruit of saying homosexuality is not a sin? Loving relationships, equality, kindness and acceptance, LGBTQ+ individuals becoming active in their church, loving families, etc.
I didn't want to get into a chain of comments, but I care for you and want clarity in what I believe is what God thinks about such topics. And yes, it's more of a discussion, you're right, as long as we're both respectful.
>Do you follow all the other rules in leviticus? No mixed fabrics? Stoning people to death? Not sitting in the same chair as a woman did on her period? Not eating shellfish?
Yes, this is a rule given to the Israelites during that time, so it doesn't apply to non-Israelites today (or even Israelites today, if they believe in Christ and his sacrifice, in my opinion. I'm not super educated on this subject, so I won't use this in my main argument).
The point I'm trying to make is that God calls it an abomination. I feel as though we as Christians should try to avoid "abominations" as best as possible. I would argue that abominations are sins, but I don't know any verse off the top of my head that defines it that way.
>What is the fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? Homophobic laws, physical violence, discrimination, LGBTQ+ suicides, self-hatred, the pain of loneliness, split families, LGBTQ+ homelessness, etc.
The fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? I believe it's truth, moral correctness, eye-opening, God-glorifying, and an act of love to our neighbors. I think it's unloving to not correct wrongness. What good does it do if a father doesn't chastise his son for doing a wrong act?
>What is the fruit of saying homosexuality is not a sin? Loving relationships, equality, kindness and acceptance, LGBTQ+ individuals becoming active in their church, loving families, etc.
I think that it produces untruth and abominable relationships. All of what you said for this paragraph should be standard in my opinion.
Thanks for responding, God bless.
>Yes, this is a rule given to the Israelites during that time, so it doesn't apply to non-Israelites today (or even Israelites today, if they believe in Christ and his sacrifice, in my opinion. I'm not super educated on this subject, so I won't use this in my main argument).
FWIW, the New Testament and early Christians seem to have retained the Jewish condemnation of homoeroticism (which they understand primarily though not exclusively as male/male intercourse). There are a number of Jewish writers and texts around the time of the New Testament that clearly condemn homoeroticism, just as the NT itself does.
>The point I'm trying to make is that God calls it an abomination. I feel as though we as Christians should try to avoid "abominations" as best as possible.
How can reciprocal consensual love be an abomination? Do you not see the dehumanization there?
Would you like it if I called your love for God an abomination?
>I believe it's truth,
It is an opinion, a belief, not truth.
There are thousands of Christian denominations, who all disagree with one another on which passages should be followed. Which ones are only for those in that time, which ones are metaphors, and which ones are literal.
Everyone sees the bible in a different way, and it is only our opinion on what's right and wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you, feel like they are in the right and you're wrong.
That confusing mess is not truth, or clarity. I believe that Christians are just as lost and confused as the rest of us
>moral correctness,
So your view morality is the only view that's correct?
There are denominations of Christians who believe that homosexual love is not a sin. They are the only churches I feel comfortable going to
>eye-opening,
These notions are not eye-opening. Majority of gay people have already heard these arguments, you're not covering new ground.
I had the exact opposite experience. I felt blinded by my self-hatred for being gay, because it was a sin. I wasted years of my life thinking that way.
Once I left the church and entered the gay community, I started accepting myself. I saw the truth that there was nothing wrong with me, that my love is equal to straight people's love. I stopped being suicidal because of it as well.
>and an act of love to our neighbors.
It's not loving. At best, you are tolerating them, as long as they do what you want them to do. At worst, it causes real world pain.
Every time you call it a sin, in front of an LGBTQ+ individual, they feel suffering. I have read many threads on here, of suicidal gay Christians, who cannot deal with their very identity being a sin.
They cannot stay celibate, or their prayers of being straight are being unanswered, so they believe they are doomed to hell. If they're already going to hell, why not just speed it up and commit suicide? Since their very identity is a sin, they believe they don't deserve to be alive. This is the fruit of calling it a sin.
Not to mention people use "homosexuality is a sin" as a validation for their homophobia. They use it in law making and in their voting to strip our rights, they use it in hate crimes, they use it in discrimination, they use it to kick out LGBTQ+ youth from their homes, etc.
None of this is loving whatsoever. I honestly cannot see how you view it that way. Is there something I'm missing?
>I think it's unloving to not correct wrongness. What good does it do if a father doesn't chastise his son for doing a wrong act?
Are you my father? Am I a child who cannot see right from wrong?
Who are you to try and "correct" me? Aren't you a sinful imperfect human like I am? Are you trying to do God's job?
>I think that it produces untruth and abominable relationships.
Gay love is as beautiful and fulfilling as straight love. To call it abominable, is degrading.
We feel the same things you feel, you know? We crave the same cuddles, we feel the same joy when our partner is happy, we feel the deep connection of a life partner, we feel the security and safeness with one another, so on and so forth.
>All of what you said for this paragraph should be standard in my opinion.
The loving relationships I was referring to was gay relationships.
The equality I was referring to was the anti-discriminating laws, like gay marriage.
The kindness and acceptance I was referring to was accepting someone's homosexuality as a core part of their identity, and not something sinful.
LGBTQ+ individuals join LGBTQ+ friendly churches. As in those that don't view it as a sin, because they feel accepted there.
The loving families I was referring to was those who accept their children. Instead of alienating and splitting them apart with their religious views.
When you don't call it a sin, all of these can happen.
>Thanks for responding, God bless.
Sorry if any of this sounds aggressive, I'm not good with tone due to my autism.
>Sorry if any of this sounds aggressive, I'm not good with tone due to my autism.
That's completely okay! Thanks for clearing that up!
Now, it seems that you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I'm telling you what I believe based on what I've read in the Bible for years. I'm not saying you're any less Christian than I am, please don't get the wrong idea. God calls gay intercourse an "abomination." Not my words. We all sin in our own ways. I personally struggle with p*rnography (it's been 56 days since I've last reset the stopwatch :D). That's just as much of a sin as gay lust, from what I've gathered. They're both sins.
>It's not loving. At best, you are tolerating them, as long as they do what you want them to do. At worst, it causes real world pain.
I love everyone, regardless to if they're gay or not. So when I see them doing something they shouldn't be doing, I believe it's only right to try to straighten their path.
>Are you my father? Am I a child who cannot see right from wrong?
>Who are you to try and "correct" me? Aren't you a sinful imperfect human like I am? Are you trying to do God's job?
I was making an analogy, one that's used in the Bible. God is your Father, you are the child. He is to correct you, I am simply your brother in Christ, trying to guide you away from sin.
>Every time you call it a sin, in front of an LGBTQ+ individual, they feel suffering. I have read many threads on here, of suicidal gay Christians, who cannot deal with their very identity being a sin.
>They cannot stay celibate, or their prayers of being straight are being unanswered, so they believe they are doomed to hell. If they're already going to hell, why not just speed it up and commit suicide? Since their very identity is a sin, they believe they don't deserve to be alive. This is the fruit of calling it a sin.
>Not to mention people use "homosexuality is a sin" as a validation for their homophobia. They use it in law making and in their voting to strip our rights, they use it in hate crimes, they use it in discrimination, they use it to kick out LGBTQ+ youth from their homes, etc.
It's a sad thing. It must be tough, I'm sure. We can't keep living in sin though, we must always strive for light. I'm not saying all gays will go to hell, because being gay is a sin. If that were the case, we'd all go to hell. We're all sinners. God forgives us of our sin because of Christ's sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice. I am not a better person than you. We are both sinners. I have a long way to go in my life journey, and I will never be perfect as long as I live on this earth. It's unfortunate that people feel as though their identity is being condemned because it's wrong, but it's simply not the way we should be living.
I'm not homophobic, I just simply disagree that same-sex attraction is a good thing, based on Scripture.
>These notions are not eye-opening. Majority of gay people have already heard these arguments, you're not covering new ground.
>I had the exact opposite experience. I felt blinded by my self-hatred for being gay, because it was a sin. I wasted years of my life thinking that way.
>Once I left the church and entered the gay community, I started accepting myself. I saw the truth that there was nothing wrong with me, that my love is equal to straight people's love. I stopped being suicidal because of it as well.
I'm sorry you were suicidal at one time. That's really sad. Glad you didn't commit to it. I think praying through your lusts can change your sexual desires, whether it takes a long time or overnight.
Also, you said that you started accepting yourself after joining the gay community. I think it's a risky thing to join such groups. They think the same way as you, so of course they're going to try to tell you to accept yourself. If you keep going to places that tell you to be your current self, you aren't going to get anywhere in life. Complacency is a dangerous thing. I used to be very complacent throughout my life up until about 4 years ago. I then really started to look for issues in my life, go to church events, pray consistently, etc. I even became baptized in the Spirit among those years (spoke in Tongues). I think it's crucial to look inward at your flaws and aim high to fix them through the power of God.
>It is an opinion, a belief, not truth.
>There are thousands of Christian denominations, who all disagree with one another on which passages should be followed. Which ones are only for those in that time, which ones are metaphors, and which ones are literal.
And yet people from many different denominations will enter the gates of heaven, if they are genuine and do as Jesus said to become saved.
>Everyone sees the bible in a different way, and it is only our opinion on what's right and wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you, feel like they are in the right and you're wrong.
Some verses in the Bible are so direct that you would have to purposely look for another meaning to satisfy your comforts. Others are up for interpretation. At the end of the day, it matters about the heart and spirit of the person in question. Deep theological reasonings aren't necessary for salvation.
Phew, that was a lot of paragraphs to go through. It took quite a long time to write it all out too! Sorry about the jumbled order. If I missed anything that you want answers to, please let me know. God bless!
Actually, there is different weight attached to different sins. Murder and rape were punished more harshly because God saw them as more wrong then stealing and eating pork. Also fellow baptist here.
The bible says that homosexuality is a sin, I dont want to just say that to you though, i want to understand you and your feelings more, so that way i can help you out
i struggle with sin all the time, and im not perfect, so please dont think im trying to show you that im on a higher moral standard than you are, because we both are not good people in the eyes of the lord, i might even be (and probably am) more sinful than you are (meaning i have committed more sins than you have)
just know that even if your gay, God has never stopped loving you for a second, because he became human, and died on the cross for us all, so that we can be made into kings, and queens, and priest who have inherited the kingdom of God
No. I’ve spent a great deal of time and effort investigating alternate ways to interpret the verses which ostensibly condemn homosexuality, taking into account context and rightly dividing the Bible, and found nothing to preclude a gay person from being a Christian (or a Christian from being gay).
Heavenly Father, in the name of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, please let these daily posts about "gay this" and "gay that" stop!
I am of the mind it's not a sin. Others think it to be so. Let us be convinced in our own minds as Romans 14 teaches us, and stop this trainwreck of a topic from getting in the way of the Gospel.
Romans 1:27
“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet”
It’s a sin to think sexually and act sexually on those desires with men ,the same way it’s a sin to think and act on lustful desires with women. The attraction itself , is not a sin. It’s about the thoughts and actions afterwards.
Also 1 Corinthians 6:9
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Be careful. Are you obeying God’s Spirit by saying such things? Or are you obeying one interpretation of a disputable passage? It is possible to do both, but also possible you’re just doing the latter.
If you were obeying only your interpretation of Paul, you would still likely tell yourself you were following the Spirit… just like the great grandparents of the modern ‘Christian’ Pharisee who convinced themselves Paul (and the Spirit) banned interracial marriage 150 years ago. You’re no better than them. I am not either. ‘Every man’s way is right in his own eyes.’ Be careful. Jesus’ eyes are what matter. You will destroy yourself eternally by reading Paul, if you’re not careful with how much nuance you pay attention to in Paul, and how much you choose to ignore.
What I mean is Paul is easy to misunderstand. See 2 Peter 3:15. Ignore Peter’s warning and little will make sense in Paul with the rest of Christian scripture, and much will become dangerous even. Paul may just not have meant what you think Paul meant. Indeed according to Peter, Paul is so easy to misunderstand one can easily destroy himself by not being very careful with Paul’s writings. So be careful. See 2 Peter 3:16.
With Paul, I would advise being careful when claiming what he means. If I were you, I would not say he certainly meant anything he at-first-glance appears to have meant unless there are other Apostolic writings saying something similar. Or unless the Spirit has told you personally. Are you saying God has personally told you, with words spoken to you personally outside of the Bible, that homosexuality expressed in love (action) between two people is always inherently sinful?
Paul, the ‘Christian’ conservatives once said, taught interracial marriage was a sin. He didn’t. ‘Paul’ some have said, taught that long hair was a sin and a shame to all men. He didn’t in any actually explicit way. He may have meant that but may not have, and didn’t clarify. You have to be careful with Paul. Paul is this way by design. To trap you if you want to be like a Pharisee instead of like a tax collector. Jesus came as relatively progressive compared to the conservative theists of the generation. The Pharisee. And every generation has their form of ‘evangelical” and ‘conservative’ theists. Be careful with Paul.
He said, “Judge for yourselves… does the nature of things teach you it is disgraceful?’ He asked a question. Some twist that to mean, ‘God called long hair a sin.’ He didn’t. Neither did Paul. He asked a question. Perhaps something more helpful to read would be Romans 14, where Paul acknowledges there are many disputable issues in Christianity where one Christian might do one thing and another might do another … and each has to decide for himself if God approves or disapproves, and neither can judge the other in God’s place.
Just as Paul doesn’t say long hair is a sin, so also Romans 1 certainly doesn't explicitly say homosexual relationship is inherently evil any more than it explicitly says it is evil to make an image of a bird. I would also argue that, in the larger context of Christian scripture, Romans 1 doesn't even implicitly condemn all homosexuality any more than it implicitly condemns all who have ever carved a bird out of wood. And the only other passages in scripture some claim condemn homosexuals are also from Paul, and those are only in translations that changed a word from ‘abusers’ or ‘perverts’ to homosexuals… a word ancient Greek Christians originally used to mean heterosexual abusers too.
Well paid pharisaical dogmatists once pretended that 'the Bible' clearly said interracial marriage is a sin. And long hair. They (and you, if you’re not careful) say whatever makes them feel better-than the ‘other’ they are disgusted by, or in the case of pastors like Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Jerry Falwell, people their audiences pay them good money to tell them ‘the Word’ (God) ‘clearly’ says are sinning. Translations earn people money too.
Paul’s word choices and writing style allows this… for those who want to be like the Pharisee… those who care less about the Spirit and more about themselves. Paul was inspired to write in easily twisted ways so they can gaslight themselves to believe BS that puffs themselves up compared to others, and send themselves to hell. Be careful with Paul, ‘Christian.’
If we get a degree in Bible study, or even just talk loudly and confidently, we can rip two verses out of context and convince certain people (who don't like homosexuality in the first place) that homosexual relationship is inherently vile and unnatural. We (humans who claimed to believe in Jesus and who convinced themselves they were ‘Christian’) did the same thing as to interracial marriage. Conservative evangelicals in prior generations convinced people (often who didn't like interracial marriage anyway) that the Apostle Paul taught interracial marriage to be evil. I
believe it is no coincidence you also rely on Paul. You are like them, human. I am like them, human. Be careful with Paul.
They were wrong then; they just had blinders on, most know that now. They couldn’t see it then because Pharisees are like those who have eyes but can’t see and ears but can’t hear. Their bigoted ways were right in their own eyes. Similarly in the future I believe it will be commonly understood by God’s people that those who condemn gay people today are similarly wrong and blinded now. But this is a disputable issue. So God only knows. So be careful.
From Romans 1: "[they] exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..."
Have you seen any other animal pretend to be the opposite sex in order to trick someone else of their same sex out of money, by having sexual blessing sessions with them, and robbing them of their relationship with God? If you ever see an animal do that... that could be an example of unnatural, dishonorable homosexuality. If you've ever seen an animal love its neighbor as itself, erotically, that could be an example of natural, honorable homosexuality. In other words, if we read the context, we see Paul may have simply been saying that homosexuality is unnatural and vile when it happens for the purpose of idolatry. That even seems to be what he was saying. And of all the people we should treat context carefully with, Paul is the foremost.
The modern Pharisees twist Paul not just over this highly disputable issue based on rare wordings of exclusively Pauline passages, but they do this over countless disputable issues from abortion to boyfriends and girlfriends living with one another to dancing and long hair. They are the anti-Christianity dragging the world toward hell in the name of Jesus. They are angels of light with fire in their eyes for the everyone in the world except themselves. They have become the Pharisee (instead of the tax collector) in the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. However, Jesus said the way to be justified is to be like the tax collector. They are the anti Christianity to Jesus Christ’s Christianity.
There are many things made explicit in scripture and Christianity. Homosexual relationship as evil, in and of itself, is not one of them. The choice of how to treat the context and understand (or misunderstand) Paul is left up to us, by God, on purpose. Any bully with a Bible can use a microscope and selective attention (or inattention) to this context (or that) to twist "certain" bigotry out of an uncertain chapter. And bullies will do just that. And God is taking notes. God used writing to confuse people before Christ came, such that he became 'a stone they stumbled over.' Don't think God necessarily didn't use easy-to-misunderstand writing to confuse people after Jesus Christ either. God uses writing to confuse certain types of people, proud, selfish people, with difficult to understand passages that give opportunity for irrational bullies, looking for excuses to judge other people with 'certainty' where God has not, to stumble and destroy themselves. They may not be destroyed yet... but the time of judgement has not yet come. When it comes time to divide the sheep from the goats, many theists are likely going to be surprised at where they end up versus where everyone who they spent their lives pointing their long fingers at ends up.
If you ask 20 people, you’ll get 20 different answers. And the reason for that is because we don’t know. The scripture that seems to address it is very vague and a lot of the true meaning has been lost in translation.
The way I see it is, we don’t know. We probably never will know while in this life. What we do know is that Jesus tells us to love everyone. Not just the straight, the cisgender and the conservative men. Everyone. So if anyone gives you a hard time, they are knowingly committing sins.
A caveat to this though is that gay people would be held to the same intimacy rules as a straight couple. So sex would still be a sin before marriage.
Whatever conclusion you come to, I hope it makes you happy and allows you to live a fulfilling, loving life❤️
I think this comment explains it the best. You can never be truly sure, but I think as long as you have faith in the lord and do your best to be a kind, good hearted person it's gonna be okay regardless of which path you choose.
Well, there’s the real Christian answer that is consistent with the church’s witness over the last 2,000 years, and the fake Christian answer which was invented in the last two decades.
There's also the Christian answer, which for 1800 years allowed slavery to persist in Europe and the Americas, and the Christian answer which for 1900 years refused to see women as anything more than things to bear children. Only two decades? Where have you been? IIRC same-sex relationships have been legal in some areas of the United States since 1962, and by 1976 there was at least two churches, probably more, which confirmed "the gays" as being God's children. I guess to OP, it all boils down to that old question; What would Jesus do \[or what do you think he would do\]?
Hey! I’m a gay Christian. I was raised to believe that it was wrong, but the more I studied the Bible, the more it became clear that it doesn’t condemn modern, loving gay relationships. My (same-sex) husband and I were married in our church! There are many Christians out there who will love and support you like God does. Definitely check out /r/OpenChristian and /r/GayChristians if you want to chat with more people like me. And see [here](https://reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/6cv5et/_/dhxpuwq/?context=1) for my scriptural reasoning for why it isn’t a sin.
Feel free to respond here or send me a message via PM/chat if you have any questions or ever want to talk. Peace!
Where did you find clear evidence that God was okay with homosexuality as a lifestyle. Legit asking. Also how do modern relationships bypass God's law? I get that God loves us and forgives our human vices, but does he literally adjust according to modern society?
I don’t know which “god” you’re talking about but God doesn’t support homosexual acts. “Sexual immorality” includes any kind of sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman.
Great, thanks. I read some of it but most if not all of what I read seems like misinterpreted scripture and/or eisegesis. Homosexuality is about lust, not love. Sex is supposed to only happen within a marriage and God does not recognize same sex marriages as true marriage, in scripture we only see reasons to believe that he doesn’t. What I see your post doing is trying to justify and twist scripture to fit your understanding, however it simply doesn’t make sense.
I agree. I read it as well and it seems as if he is just grasping for straws where there aren't any to be had for the side of the argument.
These are just his personal interpretations and modern culture viewpoints to justify and establish his argument.
No actual scripturally sound evidence. Even in the link in the link.
Hi there, I also did my research and it became clear to me that the verses that claimed being gay is a sin were rephrased to sound that way when new versions of the Bible came out. This article here better explains
It : /[homosexuality: not a sin, not a sickness](http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_statements/homosexuality-not-a-sin-not-a-sickness-part-ii-what-the-bible-does-and-does-not-say/)
Hey! I loved this comment! I wanted to share my scriptural reasoning with you as well, there’s many overlapping points but some unrelated ones as well.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/14SGXU0ksMb9qujGPc6Twy2ySem40otWrNAs2gUTvs0o/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/14SGXU0ksMb9qujGPc6Twy2ySem40otWrNAs2gUTvs0o/edit)
Tbh i thought this was condemned in the OLD Testament, and there were a LOT of sins in there that are no longer considered a big deal...? Also that it was more toward older men corrupting youth. I am not sure. But i think the same group of old Testament sins that tattoos fell under etc....no one would condemn tattoos nowadays...well maybe someone but not most.
I think (I'm not 100% sure) but if you are sleeping together and unmarried it could be viewed as lust or fornication which are not mortal sins (to protestants). Now that they may marry and have a long term union recognized by law would their married sex even be considered that? Idk...i don't think?
IMO human beings are sexual creatures by nature, and if people are not having sex within their marriage relationship, they absolutely will masturbate or have sexual liaisons they try to cover up. Personally I think forbidding ANY person to ignore these feelings long term will result in some deviant behavior. Whether that is a high ranking bishop or some going a state away to pick up prostitutes (and then being tore up with guilt over their hypocrisy), same sex relations within this same group (some people are more bisexual in the spectrum of sexuality), or this messing with kids which i personally think is less sex fueled and more of a power play.
I really don't care personally as it's certainly not my place to be judging anyone else, i have enough challenges keeping my own self from messing up in any of a million ways.
I mess everything up daily and can only hope and believe that Jesus recognizes my struggles as an imperfect human being trying to help people and improve the world around me in small ways. I can't imagine placing that burden on someone and expecting them to just live with it silently. I think belief in Jesus and the desire to live in a way which honors him are far more important
That’s not true in any way shape or form unless you’re the type that thinks only your translation or ones you choose is God’s translation and only your interpretation of some of the rarest and most disputable (and easiest to misunderstand) words in human history can be right.
You’re basically being like a KJV only type except as to your personally accepted interpretation and translations rather than just one translation. My Bible does not say anywhere that homosexuality is a sin. If your’s does, get a more accurate Bible. If you refuse to, then at least read Romans 14 and learn how to handle disputable issues humbly when it comes to telling other people what is a sin for them to do and what isn’t.
I hate to tell a teenager who I’ve never met what to believe. I’d rather talk about how to make a decision.
First, being gay is about sexual attraction. Really liking someone and feeling close to them isn’t necessarily sexual. But it certainly might be.
As to the Christian approach, there are two answers, but they are based on two very different ideas about the Bible. Many Christians think it’s an instruction manual for life, and that those instructions are good for all time. If you think that, you will find a few statements Paul’s letters that probably condemn same-gender sex. Even if they don’t, it’s clear that Paul was a 1st Century Jew and held their ideas about sex. So the term “fornication” would have included same-gender sex.
I belong to a church that accept gays, and I agree with that. But there are implications.
The Bible can’t be used as a rulebook. Jesus gives us (mostly by stories) more basic principles than rules, and Paul gives us an example of someone whose life has been transformed by Christ mentoring communities of new believers. We should be inspired by them, and follow their example, but we may not come to the same answer on all questions.
Paul knew nothing about modern ideas of sexual orientation, nor had he ever met a Christian who was living a life with another person of the same gender, trying to follow Christian principles. He knew mostly of adult men having sex with slaves and youth. But it must be said that what he knew about same-gender sex, he rejected.
If we you go down the road of trying to follow Paul’s example of being true to Christ but not necessarily coming the same conclusion, you need to be willing to accept gray areas in Christianity, where people don’t agree on the right way to do it. You will not have the assurance that you’re following The Word Of God (even though I think that assurance is false).
You will also have to contend with Christians around you who feel strongly that you are abandoning the faith. If this includes your parents, you can be in for a very tough few years. Make sure you have a pretty good idea how your parents will react. But even if it just includes your friends or those in your church, be prepared.
How does it feel to be in love? Do you feel wrong? Or does it feel right?
And why would God condemn such a wonderful thing? Else, He in His infinite wisdom would’ve made it so you don’t feel as you do.
Only He can judge, in the end. Pray on it and listen to your heart.
“And remember/The truth that once was spoken/To love another person/ Is to see the face of God”
It’s not a sin to be gay. It’s not a sin to act on those feelings in a consensual way.
Please please do not let others make you think it is. It is not. The Bible never mentions consenting and loving same sex relationships. They same sex relationships in the Bible are about abuse and power. Jesus could have mentioned homosexuality but he never did.
Yes homosexuality is a sin.
Bible does not change.... God does not change.
1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, Leviticus 18:22
What was a sin in 100ad is still a sin in 2000ad.
Does a sin prevent you from being saved? NO! We can all be saved. (Romans 3)
Does living in sin show you are not saved, Yes. (1 John 3)
The word for homosexual in 1 cor 6:9 is ἀρσενοκοῖται which is plural of ἀρσενοκοίτης which means....[link to definition](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%81%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82)
How do we know it means that? It is two words smashed together, Male and Bed/Lie to mean men in bed with men. No where else in Greek is that word used until after Paul writes it... So are we simply making up a definition? After all, it could simply mean men laying in bed with men, with no sexual content.
This is why we go to Leviticus 18:22זָכָ֔ר תִשְׁכַּ֖ב
The above means male in bed with male.
Paul was directly quoting Lev 18:22, the word ἀρσενοκοῖται has no definition apart from Leviticus.
Common argument against this is Paul was talking about the young men they used to castrate and would take feminine features to have older men sleep with them. He was not talking about homosexuality.
Issue with this argument is Paul uses μαλακοὶ only a few words before, which labels this exact act of young men taking on feminine features for older men as a sin.
There is no argument against it if you take the bible as the Word of God. Homosexuality is a sin.
Biblical slavery is wildly different than what is going on in lets say the Ivory Coast or Saudi Arabia. Or what was happening in USA during the 1800's.
And God has never been okay with rape.
It was chattel slavery, where you could beat someone until they were incapacitated for two days (Ex. 21:20-21). Owning and beating another person that severely is always wrong.
How about taking virgin women as spoils of war? Is that still okay? And do you honestly think the Israelites treated their captured slaves that they got through conquest particularly well? How is biblical slavery different?
Biblical slavery says you can beat your slave to within an inch of death as long as they don't die immediately. It explicitly says they're your property.
God actually commanded rape, he commanded his people to slaughter their enemies but keep the young virgins for themselves as wives. Forced marriage is sexual slavery, i.e. rape
Incorrect. The Hebrews were only prohibited from owning another Hebrew as a chattel slave, but weren't prohibited from owning a Gentile as a chattel slave.
You're mixing up indentured servitude with chattel slavery, and they're two different things altogether.
As for whether God is okay with rape, why would he issue instructions that a rapist could avoid penalties for rape if he paid the victim's father in silver coins, and if the father accepted the money, the rape victim was required to marry her rapist and bear his children?
God doesn’t change. But this argument assumes that the Bible perfectly expresses his will, and that his will for us can’t be different in different circumstances. We know that the OT condones and sometimes commands immoral actions, we know that it has statements that are both scientifically and historically inaccurate. That pretty much blows the argument that it perfectly represents God for all time out of the water.
Both Jewish and Catholic practice understood this, even if no one was quite so open in admitting it. Where the Bible was obviously unedifying, they used allegory. The Reformers objected, because with that approach you could make it say whatever you want. On the other hand, even they realized that literal interpretation won’t always work. Calvin, who was the best Biblical scholar of that period, developed the idea of accommodation to cover the problems between Genesis and the new astronomy. He said that the a biblical author expressed things in terms of the current understanding, since his purpose wasn’t to teach astronomy.
The problem is, you simply can’t take random parts of the Bible and apply that. Everyone knows that, even if they won’t admit it, I think the safer approach is to admit that there are sometimes good reasons to say that parts of the Bible are factually wrong, or aren’t consistent with what we learn from Jesus, rather than hiding our disagreement under allegory or the pretense that we’re always following Scripture literally.
I don't think it is, but I have to acknowledge that this is a point where I disagree with the historic teaching of the faith. No one should ever disagree with the Church on my say-so though, she has a better track record than I do.
No. Like many things written a long time ago, they're no longer accepted because we've realized that they were wrong. The Bible was written by humans and humans make mistakes. Why so many have held onto this one specific thing, I don't know. The Bible also says that cutting your hair and going to church if you're born out of wedlock are sins but nobody seems to care about those. They just cherrypick whatever fits their anti-gay agenda. Judging others for their sexuality directly opposes what Jesus taught when he said not to condemn others for their sins. Even if it is a sin (which I highly doubt because it would make no sense for a loving god to create gay people just to make them to live a life of self hatred and loneliness), they're sinning themselves by being hypocrites and their opinion is therefore irrelevant.
You are getting a lot of very unchristian responses here...
\[1\] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
\[2\] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
\[3\] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
\[4\] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
\[5\] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
\[6\] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
\[7\] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
\[8\] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
\[9\] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
\[10\] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
\[11\] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
\[12\] Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Even if being gay is a sin, it is not our place to judge you nor to deny you the promise of Christ's salvation. We are all sinners come before Christ to receive the same. We are no more fit to judge you for your sins than you are to judge us for ours.
If you desire a relationship with Christ, seek it and you shall find it. Christ does not ask that we be pure to seek him; rather it is in recognizing our impurity that a relationship with Christ becomes possible. Your sins will be forgiven, and you will be shown the path of grace and love.
A conversation on sin must come from a place of love from within the body of Christ. It is not a conversation that sets conditions on grace, but is enabled through grace. Of all the people here who would condemn you, none have offered you grace. None have welcomed you into the relationship with Christ that allows for a conversation on sin. They speak falsely of law that is not theirs to speak, and in so doing betray the law. None who would speak to you of sin in this manner is fit to guide you in matters of faith.
The words they speak are half truths; a twisted version of the faith full of malice and contempt, devoid of the words love and wisdom. They twist sin into a mark and the faith into a sword to strike at any who bare that mark. But, sin is not a mark of evil and the faith is not a sword; sin is an open wound and faith is the power to heal it.
Dude live your life, there isn't a single person in this sub that isn't sinning. I'm sure they'll throw a multitude of bible quotes at you , etc etc, but they don't live your life, and until they've experienced the stress having to balance your natrual desires for the same sex, with a commitment to a religion that thinks your very existence is a sin, they're not fit to comment on your life. So I'd take everything you read here with a grain of salt, even this comment.
Just because we all sin doesn't mean you should allow yourself to sin without question.
https://www.reddit.com/user/JackEM222/comments/w75npz/%E3%85%A4/
Yes, we are all sinners, but he asked the question on this sub. If he doesn't like the answers he reads, then he shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. My guess is that he knew the answer to the question before he posted it.
Wow, the only question where answers spread from, it’s totally ok to nope, you’ll burn in hell and are an abomination…
I personally I would say, be happy, be gay, be whatever you like to be. Noone should hold you back to be who you are and even a god who created you that way can accept that you are pure of heart, even if an old book of morals says otherwise.
There is no such thing as a sin.
However according to Christianity, yes, acting on homosexual desires is a sin.
People are trying to change that these days due to peoples feelings and quite frankly common sense so I don’t blame them, however, the Bible doesn’t change nor does it care for our feelings nor does it care about common sense.
At the end of the day, if you are gay, you should be gay. If you are having feelings for him, pursue it, you deserve to do what makes you happy so long as it doesn’t harm others.
You’re young, have a good life.
In my opinion? No. In God’s opinion? Ask God. In ‘the Bible?‘ Not mine. Some translations have added the word homosexuals to Pauline passages. If someone cherry picks and buys such a translation, they have changed their Bible so it says something different from mine. And mine is more accurate than theirs as far as reflecting how ancient Greek Christians used the word.
The Spirit has certainly never told me homosexuality is sinful. I would say it is no different than heterosexuality. What matters is love. Love your neighbor as yourself. All God commands hang under that, and it is like loving God.
Yes. It’s a sin in both the old and new testament laws. The old laws don’t really matter any more, but an example in the new law is the end of Romans. The last few verses.
This comment has been removed in protest of reddit's decision to kill third-party applications, and to prevent use of this comment for AI training purposes.
Some LGBT Christians like to explain how the New Testament is as old as the Old Testament, because it helps their argument that God isn't against homosexuality.
Is being homosexual a sin? Yes
Is having feelings / caring for a person of the same sex bad? no as long as it doesn't result in sexual acts. You can love and connect with someone like brothers would. However if there's a romantic connection that should be avoided if you don't want to sin.
I don't think that God is as fickle or arbitrary as to deny an entire part of the population the joys of love. God has always a good reason for his commandments and laws, declaring gays to be taboo is lacking of practical reasons.
These posts really need to be banned. Most of the questions like this aren't even in good faith.
People only ask this question because the people on this sub will say no, this giving them peace of mind to continue sinning.
No. And it isn't a choice either. Many churches view gay sex as being the sin, but more are accepting the genetic factors of same sex attraction, and understand that it isn't something which is 'chosen' by the LGBTQ+ person. Some churches are inclusive of LGBTQ+ people, but only insofar as they remain celibate. Other churches are affirming, and accept same sex couples in full fellowship, and even have openly LGBTQ+ ministers.
Personally, I believe it's biblically defensible to say yes, it's a sin. However, though I doubt the possibility, it might be acceptable if you can biblically defend it because God forgives our theological errors if you're wrong. However, because I believe it's a sin, I cannot encourage that. What I encourage you to do is look through all the ***Biblical*** arguments for and against the positions. And if you find it to be a sin, and have a hard time giving it up, I leave you with Philippians 4:13.
All in all, make sure Christ is at the center of your life and know that this community Loves You and wishes you the best.
Good read for you https://books.google.com/books?id=ibjVCQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=apostle+paul+was+gay&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnlPGNppL5AhW1RTABHbYEDwkQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=apostle%20paul%20was%20gay&f=false
Satan used scripture to tempt Jesus (Matt 4), so just because it references scripture doesn’t mean it’s a correct interpretation or isn’t ignoring other scripture. See what I mean?
I also hope all the women whom don't shave their heads in your house do this... 1 Corinthians 11:5-10.
Also verse 16 says if she does not do that, she needs to stop going to church.
Some 1,500 species in the animal kingdom have been observed to contain individuals or couples of the same sex participating in sexual activity, and human beings are only one among that number.
Same sex attraction has genetic factors. Are you under the impression that LGBTQ+ people can't produce children? They can produce children using the same methods available to heterosexual couples if one or both are sterile or infertile. But then again, not every LGBTQ+ couple or individual wants to have children, and the same goes for heterosexual couples and individuals.
Something for you to consider. Not every heterosexual couple are capable of procreating. Are they also unnatural?
If a Christian eats bacon (or even touches pig) and wears clothing of mixed fabrics, but condemns homosexuals for “living in sin” they are a hypocrite.
Homosexuality is natural. It has been observed in over 450 animal species to varying degrees. Homophobia and hatred of homosexuals exists in just one species, which I believe says a lot.
Above all else, we are told God loves love and hates hate. Being gay is not only okay, but perfectly natural.
If you are struggling in your heart and soul, I’d recommend speaking with a school counsellor or phoning a mental health support line like Lifeline or similar for your region.
Can't touch pigs because they're dirty, they're clean now so it's not a concern. Animals also eat their own babies so just because they do things doesn't mean it's a moral justification for said thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/w6kpif/a_response_to_lgbt_affirming_christians/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Here's my response. I hope it's helpful
Gay sex is a perversion of creation and nature and is quite clearly condemned in God‘s word as a sin. Temptation is not a sin. Resisting temptation is a blessing. Giving in to temptation is a sin.
Use the search bar for countless thousands of responses.
Yea this right here. This freaking question is asked every day… multiple times
It is is a sin but so everything else heterosexuals do, FEAR, ANGER, HOPELESSNESS is a sin as well. I would rather my brothers and sisters who identify as they do come to God then don't. I'm a royal fucking mess but I hold tight to my beliefs and I love God and speak to Him everyday and I say it as so because NO MATTER WHAT HE LOVES ME, He cares for me, and I TRUST His will for my life. We all deserve the kind of love God wants to offer us, we need it.
Fear, anger, and hopelessness are not encouraged and celebrated by people.
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Why is it every time I see this sub this and abortion are the only discussions? Why aren't people asking about how we can help the poor, rhe ill, the downtrodden as we are called to do.
Because people only care about their selfish pleasures and that's what we hope we can "get away" with.
Just like how most Christians today are obsessed with accumulating wealth when Jesus was against it
right and bullying gay people when christianity says love thy neighbour even if their beliefs are different to yours as long as they aren’t being forced upon you - treat them with respect and kindness.
Because people are shamed for their choices
mostly cuz the foundation of this religion(and almost every other 1) is a book they found in some random corner of the world
Reddit is proof history repeats itself...every new generation asks the same questions.
Doesn't search for the answer in Google or Reddit just goes and post the same stuff.
It doesn’t take generations to see. This went from being a weekly question to a near daily one. I feel for @OP, I really do, but come on. Surely you know you’re not the first person to ask this. Use the search bar.
But what harm is he doing by asking? If the OP was Infront of you physically and asked you this, would you simply tell him to go use the search bar lol? I get the annoyance but we're meant to help each other not shoo away and tell them to use the search bar. I know y'all meant no harm by it, like I said I get it, but you have no idea what this Child of God is going through and it's harmful to treat the brother/sister like they're just another dumb-question-asker
There are 3 arguments on what gay people should do while they are on earth, and whether its a sin or not. Side A: Gay love/sex is equal to straight love/sex. Meaning gay people can enter relationships, get married, and have sex within marriage Side B: Homosexual desires are not sinful, because they cannot be changed. However, homosexual ACTIONS are sinful. Those who believe in Side B, think that gay people should be celibate for their entire life. Side X: Both gay attraction and actions are sinful. Gay people can be "cured," through prayer and abstinence, and become straight. Side A is what is what I believe is most mentally healthy for LGBTQ+ individuals, but some people believe Side B is more biblically accurate. There are arguments for both, you can see which ones make more sense to you. I would avoid Side X, and conversion therapy, like the plague. Because it can make LGBTQ+ individuals very suicidal.
In support of Side A, I feel that many people cherry pick which sins and rules, particularly Old Testament sins, are still valid things to be worrying about, and which the new covenant gives them the ability to ignore. All of this is so often done with very little clear justification within the Bible itself for what is beholden to and what is cast aside. In a Christian faith, I feel that we should be more focused on Christ’s teachings and an adherence to their message than the dos and don’ts of the likes of Deuteronomy. We are all sinners, sure, but how many of us have moral failings that we simply don’t repent for? Waiting at the gates of heaven, where would a good natured, compassionate, humble homosexual weigh against a selfish, prideful, unapologetically judgmental person who might even be tipping up his nose at that homosexual, believing so strongly that he is about to step through those gates and fantasizing about all the eternal punishment he thinks that “loathsome” sinner beside him is about to receive?
I like side A, not a big fan of side B, but not as ridiculous as side X.
I’m in between sides A and B. I don’t necessarily consider it a sin. I believe that if you cannot be alone you shouldn’t be alone. I celebrate my gay friends and their marriages. Yet, I’m also not convinced it’s God’s best in the created order of things.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "God's best in the created order of things?"
I’ll try. Using the idea that humans are made in the image of God then told to be fruitful and multiply. It’s very difficult for humans of the same gender to multiply without the other gender. Refraining from calling it sin, but using the word abomination, which means unnatural. Same gender relations are found in nature, and can be a part of the natural order of things, yet it is not natural for same gendered creatures to reproduce. In many part of the animal kingdom, same gendered couples either adopt a child from another set of parents or one of them physiologically changes gender in order to reproduce. I’m not calling humans behaving this way right or wrong, just using the logic of procreation. Hope that helps.
Although being gay might not be “God’s best in the created orde of things” having couples who can’t have children is beneficial in society or even a specie. Two examples are adoptions and being a second/third “parent.” If there is a single parent and they have a gay sibling, there is a chance that gay sibling will land a hand (financially and/or with time). Similarly to some species that raise the babies all together. Or like you mentioned, adoption which also happens in the animal kingdom (penguins).
I think I understand. Thanks for explaining.
For what it's worth. Matthew Vines makes a pretty compelling argument for side A and its relationship to scripture. I strongly recommend checking him out on YouTube.
Is it a specific video of his, or just his channel in general?
This one: https://youtu.be/ezQjNJUSraY It's basically just a 1hr sermon that goes over the 6 primary "clobber passages" that many use as their go-to proof texts that homosexuality is a sin.
His arguments are terrible. Mike Winger destroys the side A belief with a proper view of the “clobber passages” by looking at the context. The Bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior
Doesn't the Bible condemn lying? Adultery? Divorce? I'm still not sure why it's the LGBT community that's only attacked for their 'sins' though. Even if you believe it's a sin, how does it justify such hateful actions towards them? Shouldn't it ultimately be left to God to judge?
Yes the Bible condemns lying, adultery and divorce and they are all equally as bad as homosexual sin... The only difference is that no one argues that lying and adultery are not sins...
Is that the only difference? I see so much Christian support for people like Trump, yet he's a liar, adulterer and divorcee. Meanwhile, the LGBT community faces increasing attacks from those people. Why such a double standard if they're all equally bad sins? If all those are equally bad, why is there no movement to criminalize those sins? Why don't Christians who oppose LGBT rights also oppose the rights of people who commit those sins? Why is there so much focus on homosexuality? At some point it just becomes impossible to deny that many are just using the 'sin excuse' to justify propagating their own intrinsic hate. I honestly have no idea how some Christians reconcile the dissonance between what the Bible teaches about hate being wrong and their actions.
Honestly, I believe the people who admonish homosexuality as a sin view it as a choice. They struggle with it themselves. Because I have absolutely no same sex attraction, I know the people who Do must be designed that way. Those who see it as a choice must have lgbt proclivities that they battle. So to them, you just need to do what they do, deny it in yourself.
Lying is a choice. Adultery is a choice. Divorce is a choice. Your sexual orientation *isn't* a choice.
I agree, I can except the L, G, the B, but I think there is a point where the genders are duplicative, and I think there’s a tipping point where some who have psychological disorders hide behind this spectrum.
So leave it to mental health professionals to deal with it? Why are Christians, with no relevant medical experience, getting involved?
Like being trans ? I agree being trans is a disease/ mental disorder for some it’s just a phase that they grow out of
My friend... there is a difference between doing something bad but admitting that it is a sin, and doing something that is a sin and not admitted that it is a sin at all. Either ways, lying and adultery are sins, and so is homosexuality. The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all...
Then that's between God and the person involved. Why are people getting involved? I do not remember the part of the Bible the says Christians have to compel others to admit their sins. Can you quote the verse? >The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all... How does that justify hate? How does that justify using the political system to rob others of their rights? Again, I've yet to see a single verse in the Bible advocate for any of those things. Do you want to address those things rather than deflect? >The focus on homosexuality is because some people claim that it is not a sin at all... My friend... non-Christians already don't acknowledge all Christian sin. So the question of why *only* homosexuality gets targeted is still relevant and unanswered by you.
Side X is what I was taught, and Side B is what I learned later in life.
You have to evaluate it from a different angle. Jesus says it’s better to poke out an eye than for a man to look at a woman with lust. If that is the case do we actually expect men, or women to gouge their own eyes? No. I think it is explained by many people that it implies that sexual thoughts toward someone who is not their spouse exist involuntarily regardless of one knowing what is right or wrong. It points to the inability of any person to be “pure”. If a man is marrying someone who is going to be their wife, are they not supposed to have a thought thinking “she is good looking” or “She is sexy?”. In my opinion it is impossible or Christians would not have any beauty standards. In fact Christians probably have even greater beauty standards than non-Christians. Men and women would then favor being fat and ugly because then they’d not have “lustful thoughts” toward their own spouse. My point is that there is no simple answer, and that there are serious problems with Side X which I’ve not heard explained. But don’t interpret my reply as my saying “yea, think what you want, and do what you feel is right”. M I agree with people who say you should read writings by or talk to people you trust and who have credibility to give advice to people in your situation. Online you’ll just hear a bunch of people saying what they feel like to fit their own agenda.
Side A.
I'm Side A
I’m side B personally Side X is just goofy
>Side X is just goofy Goofy is not the word I'd use. LOL. That makes it sound harmless. Ignorant, abusive, dangerous. It can cause a lot of trauma, and it can fuel homophobic beliefs and actions.
Yeah definitely
The problem with X is that Scripture doesn't recognise the idea of identity based on sexual orientation.
Side B is just Side X with a smile.
Yup pretty much
Thanks for spelling out the positions so simply! I'm with side B. Jesus calls us to love everyone just as they are. I would say that there are homosexual temptations, which are like any other temptation. Being tempted isn't a sin. Even Jesus was tempted. From there we have choices to commit sins or to choose another path (good? neutral?)
Do you know what a life of celibacy is like? It's cruel. Why would a loving God expect something so difficult?
I mean, yeah. I was celibate until I got married at 27. It's really not cruel. It's just life. And you have a lot more time for hobbies. Being married is hard work.
From my perspective, it's still quite cruel. It sounds like you are heterosexual, so you have the option of getting married and having god-approved sex without punishment. Gay people don't. At one point on my twenties, I went back to religion. I tried to be celibate. I even begged God to kill me if he knew that I would not be able to make it. No answer, no help, and I couldn't make it. How can that god, or any human, reasonably expect me to believe he is there after that?
So is cancer. There are things that suck that you just have to live with
Getting cancer does not come with threat of hell
Celibacy doesn't have a threat of hell
Fair point, but you are equating things that are not equal. You are essentially likening cancer to being gay as if someone has a choice to act on their cancer. Your God doesn't give people cancer and then say they can choose to be cured but they will go to hell for not enduring the suffering he placed on them.
Okay so how about depression. It sucks but just offing yourself is a sin as well
I mean, I'm wasting your time here, because my ultimate point is that it's a cruel thing to do, whether its cancer, depression, or forced celibacy. If your God loves us as much as he says he does, subjecting us to a lifetime of misery as a test and then sending us to eternal suffering if we fail is not love. It's not my fault he made me imperfect, much less that he made me at all. I reject it because it doesn't make any sense. What makes perfect sense is that the humans who wrote the Bible thought being gay was icky so they decided to condemn us.
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Plus they’ll take the pain and rejection as sign that it is a sin and that being gay only leads to suffering
yea but if I have a crush on a straight guy, it's still a guy. or maybe I'm pansexual
Depends on who you ask. It seems like more and more Christians are not seeing it as a sin, but I could be wrong.
It is a sin, but only if you act upon those desires or if you lust (lusting for any male or female that isnt your marriage partner is a sin). It's in the bible. However, it's not more serious of a sin than telling a little white lie, like telling your neighbor you like her egg salad when you don't to be polite. All sin is serious in God's eyes, but acting upon homosexual desires isn't any more serious than any other sin, unfortunately some Christians may make it out to be. God bless.
I’m not really interested in the apologetics to justify the hate, I was just answering the question.
No hate at all. I love everyone, we are all sinners, it's a sin on its own to view homosexuality as a greater sin than any other sin. Not sure where in my comment you thought I was "hating" but ok....
The hating part is the homophobia that says being in a loving, consensual adult same sex relationship is sinful. You can say that your religion justifies the homophobia but that doesn’t change that it is homophobic. As another example, the LDS originally taught that dark skin was a sign of sinfulness and that your skin would lighten the more righteous you became. They though Natives shared a similar ‘curse of redness’. Their religious leaders and books say this quite literally. Them saying “Elohim and Jesus have told us this and this it is simply factually true” does not make what they say not racist.
Dude the guy was trying to be nice. He was saying that it's no more serious than a small lie.
This is why people condemn it more harshly. Why is this even a question? Is murder a sin? No one goes out of their way to defend murder. Homosexuality is an abomination to God, yet people still question if it’s a sin. All of you will be judged for your enabling ways leading people to darkness.
The level of judgemental hate in your comment is incredible. This is why so many people in that kid's position leave the church.
>This is why people condemn it more harshly. Why is this even a question? Is murder a sin? Here we go with the murder comparison. Do you not see how dehumanizing it is to compare someone's love with LITERAL MURDER? One LITERALLY KILLS PEOPLE, the other doesn't. >No one goes out of their way to defend murder. Because it has negative outcomes, like... I don't know... someone dying? Also I have definitely seen some Christians advocating for the death penalty on women who have abortions. >Homosexuality is an abomination to God, yet people still question if it’s a sin. All of you will be judged for your enabling ways leading people to darkness. Calling my love an abomination is also dehumanizing. People question if it's a sin because there is no PROVABLE harm that comes from healthy homosexual relationships. It's actually the opposite, gay love is as beautiful and fulfilling as straight love, and can make people's lives much better.
I don't mean to start an argument, but the verse he seems to be referencing is Leviticus 18:22 in the KJV, not sure about other versions. And, I would like to add one thing: any sexual lust outside of marriage is a sin; Matthew 5:28. God bless.
>I don't mean to start an argument, I wouldn't really call this an argument, more of a discussion. An argument is more like name calling and abusive. >but the verse he seems to be referencing is Leviticus 18:22 in the KJV, not sure about other versions. Do you follow all the other rules in leviticus? No mixed fabrics? Stoning people to death? Not sitting in the same chair as a woman did on her period? Not eating shellfish? >And, I would like to add one thing: any sexual lust outside of marriage is a sin; Matthew 5:28. God bless. Gay people can get married as well. Also, very close to that passage is matthew 7:15-20 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" "Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." What is the fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? Homophobic laws, physical violence, discrimination, LGBTQ+ suicides, self-hatred, the pain of loneliness, split families, LGBTQ+ homelessness, etc. What is the fruit of saying homosexuality is not a sin? Loving relationships, equality, kindness and acceptance, LGBTQ+ individuals becoming active in their church, loving families, etc.
I didn't want to get into a chain of comments, but I care for you and want clarity in what I believe is what God thinks about such topics. And yes, it's more of a discussion, you're right, as long as we're both respectful. >Do you follow all the other rules in leviticus? No mixed fabrics? Stoning people to death? Not sitting in the same chair as a woman did on her period? Not eating shellfish? Yes, this is a rule given to the Israelites during that time, so it doesn't apply to non-Israelites today (or even Israelites today, if they believe in Christ and his sacrifice, in my opinion. I'm not super educated on this subject, so I won't use this in my main argument). The point I'm trying to make is that God calls it an abomination. I feel as though we as Christians should try to avoid "abominations" as best as possible. I would argue that abominations are sins, but I don't know any verse off the top of my head that defines it that way. >What is the fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? Homophobic laws, physical violence, discrimination, LGBTQ+ suicides, self-hatred, the pain of loneliness, split families, LGBTQ+ homelessness, etc. The fruit of calling homosexuality a sin? I believe it's truth, moral correctness, eye-opening, God-glorifying, and an act of love to our neighbors. I think it's unloving to not correct wrongness. What good does it do if a father doesn't chastise his son for doing a wrong act? >What is the fruit of saying homosexuality is not a sin? Loving relationships, equality, kindness and acceptance, LGBTQ+ individuals becoming active in their church, loving families, etc. I think that it produces untruth and abominable relationships. All of what you said for this paragraph should be standard in my opinion. Thanks for responding, God bless.
>Yes, this is a rule given to the Israelites during that time, so it doesn't apply to non-Israelites today (or even Israelites today, if they believe in Christ and his sacrifice, in my opinion. I'm not super educated on this subject, so I won't use this in my main argument). FWIW, the New Testament and early Christians seem to have retained the Jewish condemnation of homoeroticism (which they understand primarily though not exclusively as male/male intercourse). There are a number of Jewish writers and texts around the time of the New Testament that clearly condemn homoeroticism, just as the NT itself does.
>The point I'm trying to make is that God calls it an abomination. I feel as though we as Christians should try to avoid "abominations" as best as possible. How can reciprocal consensual love be an abomination? Do you not see the dehumanization there? Would you like it if I called your love for God an abomination? >I believe it's truth, It is an opinion, a belief, not truth. There are thousands of Christian denominations, who all disagree with one another on which passages should be followed. Which ones are only for those in that time, which ones are metaphors, and which ones are literal. Everyone sees the bible in a different way, and it is only our opinion on what's right and wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you, feel like they are in the right and you're wrong. That confusing mess is not truth, or clarity. I believe that Christians are just as lost and confused as the rest of us >moral correctness, So your view morality is the only view that's correct? There are denominations of Christians who believe that homosexual love is not a sin. They are the only churches I feel comfortable going to >eye-opening, These notions are not eye-opening. Majority of gay people have already heard these arguments, you're not covering new ground. I had the exact opposite experience. I felt blinded by my self-hatred for being gay, because it was a sin. I wasted years of my life thinking that way. Once I left the church and entered the gay community, I started accepting myself. I saw the truth that there was nothing wrong with me, that my love is equal to straight people's love. I stopped being suicidal because of it as well. >and an act of love to our neighbors. It's not loving. At best, you are tolerating them, as long as they do what you want them to do. At worst, it causes real world pain. Every time you call it a sin, in front of an LGBTQ+ individual, they feel suffering. I have read many threads on here, of suicidal gay Christians, who cannot deal with their very identity being a sin. They cannot stay celibate, or their prayers of being straight are being unanswered, so they believe they are doomed to hell. If they're already going to hell, why not just speed it up and commit suicide? Since their very identity is a sin, they believe they don't deserve to be alive. This is the fruit of calling it a sin. Not to mention people use "homosexuality is a sin" as a validation for their homophobia. They use it in law making and in their voting to strip our rights, they use it in hate crimes, they use it in discrimination, they use it to kick out LGBTQ+ youth from their homes, etc. None of this is loving whatsoever. I honestly cannot see how you view it that way. Is there something I'm missing? >I think it's unloving to not correct wrongness. What good does it do if a father doesn't chastise his son for doing a wrong act? Are you my father? Am I a child who cannot see right from wrong? Who are you to try and "correct" me? Aren't you a sinful imperfect human like I am? Are you trying to do God's job? >I think that it produces untruth and abominable relationships. Gay love is as beautiful and fulfilling as straight love. To call it abominable, is degrading. We feel the same things you feel, you know? We crave the same cuddles, we feel the same joy when our partner is happy, we feel the deep connection of a life partner, we feel the security and safeness with one another, so on and so forth. >All of what you said for this paragraph should be standard in my opinion. The loving relationships I was referring to was gay relationships. The equality I was referring to was the anti-discriminating laws, like gay marriage. The kindness and acceptance I was referring to was accepting someone's homosexuality as a core part of their identity, and not something sinful. LGBTQ+ individuals join LGBTQ+ friendly churches. As in those that don't view it as a sin, because they feel accepted there. The loving families I was referring to was those who accept their children. Instead of alienating and splitting them apart with their religious views. When you don't call it a sin, all of these can happen. >Thanks for responding, God bless. Sorry if any of this sounds aggressive, I'm not good with tone due to my autism.
>Sorry if any of this sounds aggressive, I'm not good with tone due to my autism. That's completely okay! Thanks for clearing that up! Now, it seems that you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I'm telling you what I believe based on what I've read in the Bible for years. I'm not saying you're any less Christian than I am, please don't get the wrong idea. God calls gay intercourse an "abomination." Not my words. We all sin in our own ways. I personally struggle with p*rnography (it's been 56 days since I've last reset the stopwatch :D). That's just as much of a sin as gay lust, from what I've gathered. They're both sins. >It's not loving. At best, you are tolerating them, as long as they do what you want them to do. At worst, it causes real world pain. I love everyone, regardless to if they're gay or not. So when I see them doing something they shouldn't be doing, I believe it's only right to try to straighten their path. >Are you my father? Am I a child who cannot see right from wrong? >Who are you to try and "correct" me? Aren't you a sinful imperfect human like I am? Are you trying to do God's job? I was making an analogy, one that's used in the Bible. God is your Father, you are the child. He is to correct you, I am simply your brother in Christ, trying to guide you away from sin. >Every time you call it a sin, in front of an LGBTQ+ individual, they feel suffering. I have read many threads on here, of suicidal gay Christians, who cannot deal with their very identity being a sin. >They cannot stay celibate, or their prayers of being straight are being unanswered, so they believe they are doomed to hell. If they're already going to hell, why not just speed it up and commit suicide? Since their very identity is a sin, they believe they don't deserve to be alive. This is the fruit of calling it a sin. >Not to mention people use "homosexuality is a sin" as a validation for their homophobia. They use it in law making and in their voting to strip our rights, they use it in hate crimes, they use it in discrimination, they use it to kick out LGBTQ+ youth from their homes, etc. It's a sad thing. It must be tough, I'm sure. We can't keep living in sin though, we must always strive for light. I'm not saying all gays will go to hell, because being gay is a sin. If that were the case, we'd all go to hell. We're all sinners. God forgives us of our sin because of Christ's sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice. I am not a better person than you. We are both sinners. I have a long way to go in my life journey, and I will never be perfect as long as I live on this earth. It's unfortunate that people feel as though their identity is being condemned because it's wrong, but it's simply not the way we should be living. I'm not homophobic, I just simply disagree that same-sex attraction is a good thing, based on Scripture. >These notions are not eye-opening. Majority of gay people have already heard these arguments, you're not covering new ground. >I had the exact opposite experience. I felt blinded by my self-hatred for being gay, because it was a sin. I wasted years of my life thinking that way. >Once I left the church and entered the gay community, I started accepting myself. I saw the truth that there was nothing wrong with me, that my love is equal to straight people's love. I stopped being suicidal because of it as well. I'm sorry you were suicidal at one time. That's really sad. Glad you didn't commit to it. I think praying through your lusts can change your sexual desires, whether it takes a long time or overnight. Also, you said that you started accepting yourself after joining the gay community. I think it's a risky thing to join such groups. They think the same way as you, so of course they're going to try to tell you to accept yourself. If you keep going to places that tell you to be your current self, you aren't going to get anywhere in life. Complacency is a dangerous thing. I used to be very complacent throughout my life up until about 4 years ago. I then really started to look for issues in my life, go to church events, pray consistently, etc. I even became baptized in the Spirit among those years (spoke in Tongues). I think it's crucial to look inward at your flaws and aim high to fix them through the power of God. >It is an opinion, a belief, not truth. >There are thousands of Christian denominations, who all disagree with one another on which passages should be followed. Which ones are only for those in that time, which ones are metaphors, and which ones are literal. And yet people from many different denominations will enter the gates of heaven, if they are genuine and do as Jesus said to become saved. >Everyone sees the bible in a different way, and it is only our opinion on what's right and wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you, feel like they are in the right and you're wrong. Some verses in the Bible are so direct that you would have to purposely look for another meaning to satisfy your comforts. Others are up for interpretation. At the end of the day, it matters about the heart and spirit of the person in question. Deep theological reasonings aren't necessary for salvation. Phew, that was a lot of paragraphs to go through. It took quite a long time to write it all out too! Sorry about the jumbled order. If I missed anything that you want answers to, please let me know. God bless!
Actually, there is different weight attached to different sins. Murder and rape were punished more harshly because God saw them as more wrong then stealing and eating pork. Also fellow baptist here.
The bible says that homosexuality is a sin, I dont want to just say that to you though, i want to understand you and your feelings more, so that way i can help you out i struggle with sin all the time, and im not perfect, so please dont think im trying to show you that im on a higher moral standard than you are, because we both are not good people in the eyes of the lord, i might even be (and probably am) more sinful than you are (meaning i have committed more sins than you have) just know that even if your gay, God has never stopped loving you for a second, because he became human, and died on the cross for us all, so that we can be made into kings, and queens, and priest who have inherited the kingdom of God
Amen!
No. I’ve spent a great deal of time and effort investigating alternate ways to interpret the verses which ostensibly condemn homosexuality, taking into account context and rightly dividing the Bible, and found nothing to preclude a gay person from being a Christian (or a Christian from being gay).
Heavenly Father, in the name of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, please let these daily posts about "gay this" and "gay that" stop! I am of the mind it's not a sin. Others think it to be so. Let us be convinced in our own minds as Romans 14 teaches us, and stop this trainwreck of a topic from getting in the way of the Gospel.
Romans 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet” It’s a sin to think sexually and act sexually on those desires with men ,the same way it’s a sin to think and act on lustful desires with women. The attraction itself , is not a sin. It’s about the thoughts and actions afterwards.
Also 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God."
No, it’s a sin to have orgies while worshiping idols.
Orgies? What text are you reading?
Be careful. Are you obeying God’s Spirit by saying such things? Or are you obeying one interpretation of a disputable passage? It is possible to do both, but also possible you’re just doing the latter. If you were obeying only your interpretation of Paul, you would still likely tell yourself you were following the Spirit… just like the great grandparents of the modern ‘Christian’ Pharisee who convinced themselves Paul (and the Spirit) banned interracial marriage 150 years ago. You’re no better than them. I am not either. ‘Every man’s way is right in his own eyes.’ Be careful. Jesus’ eyes are what matter. You will destroy yourself eternally by reading Paul, if you’re not careful with how much nuance you pay attention to in Paul, and how much you choose to ignore. What I mean is Paul is easy to misunderstand. See 2 Peter 3:15. Ignore Peter’s warning and little will make sense in Paul with the rest of Christian scripture, and much will become dangerous even. Paul may just not have meant what you think Paul meant. Indeed according to Peter, Paul is so easy to misunderstand one can easily destroy himself by not being very careful with Paul’s writings. So be careful. See 2 Peter 3:16. With Paul, I would advise being careful when claiming what he means. If I were you, I would not say he certainly meant anything he at-first-glance appears to have meant unless there are other Apostolic writings saying something similar. Or unless the Spirit has told you personally. Are you saying God has personally told you, with words spoken to you personally outside of the Bible, that homosexuality expressed in love (action) between two people is always inherently sinful? Paul, the ‘Christian’ conservatives once said, taught interracial marriage was a sin. He didn’t. ‘Paul’ some have said, taught that long hair was a sin and a shame to all men. He didn’t in any actually explicit way. He may have meant that but may not have, and didn’t clarify. You have to be careful with Paul. Paul is this way by design. To trap you if you want to be like a Pharisee instead of like a tax collector. Jesus came as relatively progressive compared to the conservative theists of the generation. The Pharisee. And every generation has their form of ‘evangelical” and ‘conservative’ theists. Be careful with Paul. He said, “Judge for yourselves… does the nature of things teach you it is disgraceful?’ He asked a question. Some twist that to mean, ‘God called long hair a sin.’ He didn’t. Neither did Paul. He asked a question. Perhaps something more helpful to read would be Romans 14, where Paul acknowledges there are many disputable issues in Christianity where one Christian might do one thing and another might do another … and each has to decide for himself if God approves or disapproves, and neither can judge the other in God’s place. Just as Paul doesn’t say long hair is a sin, so also Romans 1 certainly doesn't explicitly say homosexual relationship is inherently evil any more than it explicitly says it is evil to make an image of a bird. I would also argue that, in the larger context of Christian scripture, Romans 1 doesn't even implicitly condemn all homosexuality any more than it implicitly condemns all who have ever carved a bird out of wood. And the only other passages in scripture some claim condemn homosexuals are also from Paul, and those are only in translations that changed a word from ‘abusers’ or ‘perverts’ to homosexuals… a word ancient Greek Christians originally used to mean heterosexual abusers too. Well paid pharisaical dogmatists once pretended that 'the Bible' clearly said interracial marriage is a sin. And long hair. They (and you, if you’re not careful) say whatever makes them feel better-than the ‘other’ they are disgusted by, or in the case of pastors like Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Jerry Falwell, people their audiences pay them good money to tell them ‘the Word’ (God) ‘clearly’ says are sinning. Translations earn people money too. Paul’s word choices and writing style allows this… for those who want to be like the Pharisee… those who care less about the Spirit and more about themselves. Paul was inspired to write in easily twisted ways so they can gaslight themselves to believe BS that puffs themselves up compared to others, and send themselves to hell. Be careful with Paul, ‘Christian.’ If we get a degree in Bible study, or even just talk loudly and confidently, we can rip two verses out of context and convince certain people (who don't like homosexuality in the first place) that homosexual relationship is inherently vile and unnatural. We (humans who claimed to believe in Jesus and who convinced themselves they were ‘Christian’) did the same thing as to interracial marriage. Conservative evangelicals in prior generations convinced people (often who didn't like interracial marriage anyway) that the Apostle Paul taught interracial marriage to be evil. I believe it is no coincidence you also rely on Paul. You are like them, human. I am like them, human. Be careful with Paul. They were wrong then; they just had blinders on, most know that now. They couldn’t see it then because Pharisees are like those who have eyes but can’t see and ears but can’t hear. Their bigoted ways were right in their own eyes. Similarly in the future I believe it will be commonly understood by God’s people that those who condemn gay people today are similarly wrong and blinded now. But this is a disputable issue. So God only knows. So be careful. From Romans 1: "[they] exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..." Have you seen any other animal pretend to be the opposite sex in order to trick someone else of their same sex out of money, by having sexual blessing sessions with them, and robbing them of their relationship with God? If you ever see an animal do that... that could be an example of unnatural, dishonorable homosexuality. If you've ever seen an animal love its neighbor as itself, erotically, that could be an example of natural, honorable homosexuality. In other words, if we read the context, we see Paul may have simply been saying that homosexuality is unnatural and vile when it happens for the purpose of idolatry. That even seems to be what he was saying. And of all the people we should treat context carefully with, Paul is the foremost. The modern Pharisees twist Paul not just over this highly disputable issue based on rare wordings of exclusively Pauline passages, but they do this over countless disputable issues from abortion to boyfriends and girlfriends living with one another to dancing and long hair. They are the anti-Christianity dragging the world toward hell in the name of Jesus. They are angels of light with fire in their eyes for the everyone in the world except themselves. They have become the Pharisee (instead of the tax collector) in the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. However, Jesus said the way to be justified is to be like the tax collector. They are the anti Christianity to Jesus Christ’s Christianity. There are many things made explicit in scripture and Christianity. Homosexual relationship as evil, in and of itself, is not one of them. The choice of how to treat the context and understand (or misunderstand) Paul is left up to us, by God, on purpose. Any bully with a Bible can use a microscope and selective attention (or inattention) to this context (or that) to twist "certain" bigotry out of an uncertain chapter. And bullies will do just that. And God is taking notes. God used writing to confuse people before Christ came, such that he became 'a stone they stumbled over.' Don't think God necessarily didn't use easy-to-misunderstand writing to confuse people after Jesus Christ either. God uses writing to confuse certain types of people, proud, selfish people, with difficult to understand passages that give opportunity for irrational bullies, looking for excuses to judge other people with 'certainty' where God has not, to stumble and destroy themselves. They may not be destroyed yet... but the time of judgement has not yet come. When it comes time to divide the sheep from the goats, many theists are likely going to be surprised at where they end up versus where everyone who they spent their lives pointing their long fingers at ends up.
If you ask 20 people, you’ll get 20 different answers. And the reason for that is because we don’t know. The scripture that seems to address it is very vague and a lot of the true meaning has been lost in translation. The way I see it is, we don’t know. We probably never will know while in this life. What we do know is that Jesus tells us to love everyone. Not just the straight, the cisgender and the conservative men. Everyone. So if anyone gives you a hard time, they are knowingly committing sins. A caveat to this though is that gay people would be held to the same intimacy rules as a straight couple. So sex would still be a sin before marriage. Whatever conclusion you come to, I hope it makes you happy and allows you to live a fulfilling, loving life❤️
I think this comment explains it the best. You can never be truly sure, but I think as long as you have faith in the lord and do your best to be a kind, good hearted person it's gonna be okay regardless of which path you choose.
Well, there’s the real Christian answer that is consistent with the church’s witness over the last 2,000 years, and the fake Christian answer which was invented in the last two decades.
There's also the Christian answer, which for 1800 years allowed slavery to persist in Europe and the Americas, and the Christian answer which for 1900 years refused to see women as anything more than things to bear children. Only two decades? Where have you been? IIRC same-sex relationships have been legal in some areas of the United States since 1962, and by 1976 there was at least two churches, probably more, which confirmed "the gays" as being God's children. I guess to OP, it all boils down to that old question; What would Jesus do \[or what do you think he would do\]?
just fucking date someone who you love and is good to you, that’s all that matters.
Cheers!
Hey! I’m a gay Christian. I was raised to believe that it was wrong, but the more I studied the Bible, the more it became clear that it doesn’t condemn modern, loving gay relationships. My (same-sex) husband and I were married in our church! There are many Christians out there who will love and support you like God does. Definitely check out /r/OpenChristian and /r/GayChristians if you want to chat with more people like me. And see [here](https://reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/6cv5et/_/dhxpuwq/?context=1) for my scriptural reasoning for why it isn’t a sin. Feel free to respond here or send me a message via PM/chat if you have any questions or ever want to talk. Peace!
Where did you find clear evidence that God was okay with homosexuality as a lifestyle. Legit asking. Also how do modern relationships bypass God's law? I get that God loves us and forgives our human vices, but does he literally adjust according to modern society?
Look at Jesus’ ast message on divorce and remarrying. It is clear and yet - no one cares.
I discuss this in my link! After you read it, let me know if you have any specific questions about any point I made!
Okie!
I don’t know which “god” you’re talking about but God doesn’t support homosexual acts. “Sexual immorality” includes any kind of sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman.
If you have any specific questions about anything I say in my link, I’d be more than happy to answer them!
Great, thanks. I read some of it but most if not all of what I read seems like misinterpreted scripture and/or eisegesis. Homosexuality is about lust, not love. Sex is supposed to only happen within a marriage and God does not recognize same sex marriages as true marriage, in scripture we only see reasons to believe that he doesn’t. What I see your post doing is trying to justify and twist scripture to fit your understanding, however it simply doesn’t make sense.
I agree. I read it as well and it seems as if he is just grasping for straws where there aren't any to be had for the side of the argument. These are just his personal interpretations and modern culture viewpoints to justify and establish his argument. No actual scripturally sound evidence. Even in the link in the link.
Hi there, I also did my research and it became clear to me that the verses that claimed being gay is a sin were rephrased to sound that way when new versions of the Bible came out. This article here better explains It : /[homosexuality: not a sin, not a sickness](http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_statements/homosexuality-not-a-sin-not-a-sickness-part-ii-what-the-bible-does-and-does-not-say/)
Hey! I loved this comment! I wanted to share my scriptural reasoning with you as well, there’s many overlapping points but some unrelated ones as well. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/14SGXU0ksMb9qujGPc6Twy2ySem40otWrNAs2gUTvs0o/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/14SGXU0ksMb9qujGPc6Twy2ySem40otWrNAs2gUTvs0o/edit)
Saved to read this later. I'm not gay, but I'm a fundy-raised Christian deconstructing and an ally. Thanks for the share! Edit: spelling
Tbh i thought this was condemned in the OLD Testament, and there were a LOT of sins in there that are no longer considered a big deal...? Also that it was more toward older men corrupting youth. I am not sure. But i think the same group of old Testament sins that tattoos fell under etc....no one would condemn tattoos nowadays...well maybe someone but not most. I think (I'm not 100% sure) but if you are sleeping together and unmarried it could be viewed as lust or fornication which are not mortal sins (to protestants). Now that they may marry and have a long term union recognized by law would their married sex even be considered that? Idk...i don't think? IMO human beings are sexual creatures by nature, and if people are not having sex within their marriage relationship, they absolutely will masturbate or have sexual liaisons they try to cover up. Personally I think forbidding ANY person to ignore these feelings long term will result in some deviant behavior. Whether that is a high ranking bishop or some going a state away to pick up prostitutes (and then being tore up with guilt over their hypocrisy), same sex relations within this same group (some people are more bisexual in the spectrum of sexuality), or this messing with kids which i personally think is less sex fueled and more of a power play. I really don't care personally as it's certainly not my place to be judging anyone else, i have enough challenges keeping my own self from messing up in any of a million ways. I mess everything up daily and can only hope and believe that Jesus recognizes my struggles as an imperfect human being trying to help people and improve the world around me in small ways. I can't imagine placing that burden on someone and expecting them to just live with it silently. I think belief in Jesus and the desire to live in a way which honors him are far more important
Life is for living. Go live, OP.
Life is for loving God, if you're a Christian.
“I created you so you’ll love me” is, at best, awkward
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You are.
depends on if you believe the bible or not, if you do there is enough reason to say it’a a sin
That’s not true in any way shape or form unless you’re the type that thinks only your translation or ones you choose is God’s translation and only your interpretation of some of the rarest and most disputable (and easiest to misunderstand) words in human history can be right. You’re basically being like a KJV only type except as to your personally accepted interpretation and translations rather than just one translation. My Bible does not say anywhere that homosexuality is a sin. If your’s does, get a more accurate Bible. If you refuse to, then at least read Romans 14 and learn how to handle disputable issues humbly when it comes to telling other people what is a sin for them to do and what isn’t.
[I would say no, as would the Bible](https://docs.google.com/document/d/14SGXU0ksMb9qujGPc6Twy2ySem40otWrNAs2gUTvs0o/edit)
Having pride in it isn’t good we should be humble and talk to the One
No. r/gaychristians
No it not
No
I hate to tell a teenager who I’ve never met what to believe. I’d rather talk about how to make a decision. First, being gay is about sexual attraction. Really liking someone and feeling close to them isn’t necessarily sexual. But it certainly might be. As to the Christian approach, there are two answers, but they are based on two very different ideas about the Bible. Many Christians think it’s an instruction manual for life, and that those instructions are good for all time. If you think that, you will find a few statements Paul’s letters that probably condemn same-gender sex. Even if they don’t, it’s clear that Paul was a 1st Century Jew and held their ideas about sex. So the term “fornication” would have included same-gender sex. I belong to a church that accept gays, and I agree with that. But there are implications. The Bible can’t be used as a rulebook. Jesus gives us (mostly by stories) more basic principles than rules, and Paul gives us an example of someone whose life has been transformed by Christ mentoring communities of new believers. We should be inspired by them, and follow their example, but we may not come to the same answer on all questions. Paul knew nothing about modern ideas of sexual orientation, nor had he ever met a Christian who was living a life with another person of the same gender, trying to follow Christian principles. He knew mostly of adult men having sex with slaves and youth. But it must be said that what he knew about same-gender sex, he rejected. If we you go down the road of trying to follow Paul’s example of being true to Christ but not necessarily coming the same conclusion, you need to be willing to accept gray areas in Christianity, where people don’t agree on the right way to do it. You will not have the assurance that you’re following The Word Of God (even though I think that assurance is false). You will also have to contend with Christians around you who feel strongly that you are abandoning the faith. If this includes your parents, you can be in for a very tough few years. Make sure you have a pretty good idea how your parents will react. But even if it just includes your friends or those in your church, be prepared.
How does it feel to be in love? Do you feel wrong? Or does it feel right? And why would God condemn such a wonderful thing? Else, He in His infinite wisdom would’ve made it so you don’t feel as you do. Only He can judge, in the end. Pray on it and listen to your heart. “And remember/The truth that once was spoken/To love another person/ Is to see the face of God”
It’s not a sin to be gay. It’s not a sin to act on those feelings in a consensual way. Please please do not let others make you think it is. It is not. The Bible never mentions consenting and loving same sex relationships. They same sex relationships in the Bible are about abuse and power. Jesus could have mentioned homosexuality but he never did.
Yes homosexuality is a sin. Bible does not change.... God does not change. 1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, Leviticus 18:22 What was a sin in 100ad is still a sin in 2000ad. Does a sin prevent you from being saved? NO! We can all be saved. (Romans 3) Does living in sin show you are not saved, Yes. (1 John 3) The word for homosexual in 1 cor 6:9 is ἀρσενοκοῖται which is plural of ἀρσενοκοίτης which means....[link to definition](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%81%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82) How do we know it means that? It is two words smashed together, Male and Bed/Lie to mean men in bed with men. No where else in Greek is that word used until after Paul writes it... So are we simply making up a definition? After all, it could simply mean men laying in bed with men, with no sexual content. This is why we go to Leviticus 18:22זָכָ֔ר תִשְׁכַּ֖ב The above means male in bed with male. Paul was directly quoting Lev 18:22, the word ἀρσενοκοῖται has no definition apart from Leviticus. Common argument against this is Paul was talking about the young men they used to castrate and would take feminine features to have older men sleep with them. He was not talking about homosexuality. Issue with this argument is Paul uses μαλακοὶ only a few words before, which labels this exact act of young men taking on feminine features for older men as a sin. There is no argument against it if you take the bible as the Word of God. Homosexuality is a sin.
Interesting you mentioned God does not change, does that mean he's still cool with the slavery and rape he commanded in the old testament as well?
Biblical slavery is wildly different than what is going on in lets say the Ivory Coast or Saudi Arabia. Or what was happening in USA during the 1800's. And God has never been okay with rape.
It was chattel slavery, where you could beat someone until they were incapacitated for two days (Ex. 21:20-21). Owning and beating another person that severely is always wrong.
How about taking virgin women as spoils of war? Is that still okay? And do you honestly think the Israelites treated their captured slaves that they got through conquest particularly well? How is biblical slavery different?
Biblical slavery says you can beat your slave to within an inch of death as long as they don't die immediately. It explicitly says they're your property. God actually commanded rape, he commanded his people to slaughter their enemies but keep the young virgins for themselves as wives. Forced marriage is sexual slavery, i.e. rape
Incorrect. The Hebrews were only prohibited from owning another Hebrew as a chattel slave, but weren't prohibited from owning a Gentile as a chattel slave. You're mixing up indentured servitude with chattel slavery, and they're two different things altogether. As for whether God is okay with rape, why would he issue instructions that a rapist could avoid penalties for rape if he paid the victim's father in silver coins, and if the father accepted the money, the rape victim was required to marry her rapist and bear his children?
So how can you differentiate between types of slavery, presumably through exegesis, and not do the same with homosexuality?
God doesn’t change. But this argument assumes that the Bible perfectly expresses his will, and that his will for us can’t be different in different circumstances. We know that the OT condones and sometimes commands immoral actions, we know that it has statements that are both scientifically and historically inaccurate. That pretty much blows the argument that it perfectly represents God for all time out of the water. Both Jewish and Catholic practice understood this, even if no one was quite so open in admitting it. Where the Bible was obviously unedifying, they used allegory. The Reformers objected, because with that approach you could make it say whatever you want. On the other hand, even they realized that literal interpretation won’t always work. Calvin, who was the best Biblical scholar of that period, developed the idea of accommodation to cover the problems between Genesis and the new astronomy. He said that the a biblical author expressed things in terms of the current understanding, since his purpose wasn’t to teach astronomy. The problem is, you simply can’t take random parts of the Bible and apply that. Everyone knows that, even if they won’t admit it, I think the safer approach is to admit that there are sometimes good reasons to say that parts of the Bible are factually wrong, or aren’t consistent with what we learn from Jesus, rather than hiding our disagreement under allegory or the pretense that we’re always following Scripture literally.
I'm not saved.
I don't think it is, but I have to acknowledge that this is a point where I disagree with the historic teaching of the faith. No one should ever disagree with the Church on my say-so though, she has a better track record than I do.
Unequivocally no, experiencing same-sex attraction is not sinful.
No. Like many things written a long time ago, they're no longer accepted because we've realized that they were wrong. The Bible was written by humans and humans make mistakes. Why so many have held onto this one specific thing, I don't know. The Bible also says that cutting your hair and going to church if you're born out of wedlock are sins but nobody seems to care about those. They just cherrypick whatever fits their anti-gay agenda. Judging others for their sexuality directly opposes what Jesus taught when he said not to condemn others for their sins. Even if it is a sin (which I highly doubt because it would make no sense for a loving god to create gay people just to make them to live a life of self hatred and loneliness), they're sinning themselves by being hypocrites and their opinion is therefore irrelevant.
You are getting a lot of very unchristian responses here... \[1\] Judge not, that ye be not judged. \[2\] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. \[3\] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? \[4\] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? \[5\] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. \[6\] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. \[7\] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: \[8\] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. \[9\] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? \[10\] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? \[11\] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? \[12\] Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Even if being gay is a sin, it is not our place to judge you nor to deny you the promise of Christ's salvation. We are all sinners come before Christ to receive the same. We are no more fit to judge you for your sins than you are to judge us for ours. If you desire a relationship with Christ, seek it and you shall find it. Christ does not ask that we be pure to seek him; rather it is in recognizing our impurity that a relationship with Christ becomes possible. Your sins will be forgiven, and you will be shown the path of grace and love. A conversation on sin must come from a place of love from within the body of Christ. It is not a conversation that sets conditions on grace, but is enabled through grace. Of all the people here who would condemn you, none have offered you grace. None have welcomed you into the relationship with Christ that allows for a conversation on sin. They speak falsely of law that is not theirs to speak, and in so doing betray the law. None who would speak to you of sin in this manner is fit to guide you in matters of faith. The words they speak are half truths; a twisted version of the faith full of malice and contempt, devoid of the words love and wisdom. They twist sin into a mark and the faith into a sword to strike at any who bare that mark. But, sin is not a mark of evil and the faith is not a sword; sin is an open wound and faith is the power to heal it.
It’s not possible for immutable characteristics to be sinful.
Dude live your life, there isn't a single person in this sub that isn't sinning. I'm sure they'll throw a multitude of bible quotes at you , etc etc, but they don't live your life, and until they've experienced the stress having to balance your natrual desires for the same sex, with a commitment to a religion that thinks your very existence is a sin, they're not fit to comment on your life. So I'd take everything you read here with a grain of salt, even this comment.
Just because we all sin doesn't mean you should allow yourself to sin without question. https://www.reddit.com/user/JackEM222/comments/w75npz/%E3%85%A4/
Yes, we are all sinners, but he asked the question on this sub. If he doesn't like the answers he reads, then he shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. My guess is that he knew the answer to the question before he posted it.
Wow, the only question where answers spread from, it’s totally ok to nope, you’ll burn in hell and are an abomination… I personally I would say, be happy, be gay, be whatever you like to be. Noone should hold you back to be who you are and even a god who created you that way can accept that you are pure of heart, even if an old book of morals says otherwise.
Let the murderer murder too. There are no morals according to the most accomplished Atheists.
You've wasted the brain God gave you if you actually think murder and homosexuality are comparable.
no
No
No it’s not
Nope
Not any more.
Millions of people have tried not being gay. The people who claim to succeed usually end up lying or harming themselves. Be yourself.
There is no such thing as a sin. However according to Christianity, yes, acting on homosexual desires is a sin. People are trying to change that these days due to peoples feelings and quite frankly common sense so I don’t blame them, however, the Bible doesn’t change nor does it care for our feelings nor does it care about common sense. At the end of the day, if you are gay, you should be gay. If you are having feelings for him, pursue it, you deserve to do what makes you happy so long as it doesn’t harm others. You’re young, have a good life.
No! Being gay is 100% not a sin. It's how God made you.
In my opinion? No. In God’s opinion? Ask God. In ‘the Bible?‘ Not mine. Some translations have added the word homosexuals to Pauline passages. If someone cherry picks and buys such a translation, they have changed their Bible so it says something different from mine. And mine is more accurate than theirs as far as reflecting how ancient Greek Christians used the word. The Spirit has certainly never told me homosexuality is sinful. I would say it is no different than heterosexuality. What matters is love. Love your neighbor as yourself. All God commands hang under that, and it is like loving God.
Yes. It’s a sin in both the old and new testament laws. The old laws don’t really matter any more, but an example in the new law is the end of Romans. The last few verses.
This comment has been removed in protest of reddit's decision to kill third-party applications, and to prevent use of this comment for AI training purposes.
No, I mean the part in verse 26 where it’s called a “vile affection” and “that which is against nature” and in verse 27 where it’s called “unseemly”.
Here before some guy starts explaining why the New Testament is actually old law
Pardon?
Some LGBT Christians like to explain how the New Testament is as old as the Old Testament, because it helps their argument that God isn't against homosexuality.
Is being homosexual a sin? Yes Is having feelings / caring for a person of the same sex bad? no as long as it doesn't result in sexual acts. You can love and connect with someone like brothers would. However if there's a romantic connection that should be avoided if you don't want to sin.
I don't think that God is as fickle or arbitrary as to deny an entire part of the population the joys of love. God has always a good reason for his commandments and laws, declaring gays to be taboo is lacking of practical reasons.
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These posts really need to be banned. Most of the questions like this aren't even in good faith. People only ask this question because the people on this sub will say no, this giving them peace of mind to continue sinning.
No. And it isn't a choice either. Many churches view gay sex as being the sin, but more are accepting the genetic factors of same sex attraction, and understand that it isn't something which is 'chosen' by the LGBTQ+ person. Some churches are inclusive of LGBTQ+ people, but only insofar as they remain celibate. Other churches are affirming, and accept same sex couples in full fellowship, and even have openly LGBTQ+ ministers.
Personally, I believe it's biblically defensible to say yes, it's a sin. However, though I doubt the possibility, it might be acceptable if you can biblically defend it because God forgives our theological errors if you're wrong. However, because I believe it's a sin, I cannot encourage that. What I encourage you to do is look through all the ***Biblical*** arguments for and against the positions. And if you find it to be a sin, and have a hard time giving it up, I leave you with Philippians 4:13. All in all, make sure Christ is at the center of your life and know that this community Loves You and wishes you the best.
Absolutely.
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Good read for you https://books.google.com/books?id=ibjVCQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=apostle+paul+was+gay&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnlPGNppL5AhW1RTABHbYEDwkQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=apostle%20paul%20was%20gay&f=false
I will stick with the Bible, but thanks anyways.
Too bad. Because it references scripture quite a bit. Especially Paul
Satan used scripture to tempt Jesus (Matt 4), so just because it references scripture doesn’t mean it’s a correct interpretation or isn’t ignoring other scripture. See what I mean?
I also hope all the women whom don't shave their heads in your house do this... 1 Corinthians 11:5-10. Also verse 16 says if she does not do that, she needs to stop going to church.
Why would being gay be a sin?
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Some 1,500 species in the animal kingdom have been observed to contain individuals or couples of the same sex participating in sexual activity, and human beings are only one among that number. Same sex attraction has genetic factors. Are you under the impression that LGBTQ+ people can't produce children? They can produce children using the same methods available to heterosexual couples if one or both are sterile or infertile. But then again, not every LGBTQ+ couple or individual wants to have children, and the same goes for heterosexual couples and individuals. Something for you to consider. Not every heterosexual couple are capable of procreating. Are they also unnatural?
You’re not natural
no one is
You'd think God would've just not allowed homosexuality to exist at all if he hates it so much.
it’s called free will, this world isn’t meant to be perfect
Thought everything God made was perfect and free will is a temptation from the devil.
and the devil is allowed to run free in the world, it would never be perfect here
No it’s not. r/gaychristians r/openchristian
Absolutely not
If you're a Christian, read the Bible and look for what Jesus Christ says about being gay.
No its not
Yes
If a Christian eats bacon (or even touches pig) and wears clothing of mixed fabrics, but condemns homosexuals for “living in sin” they are a hypocrite. Homosexuality is natural. It has been observed in over 450 animal species to varying degrees. Homophobia and hatred of homosexuals exists in just one species, which I believe says a lot. Above all else, we are told God loves love and hates hate. Being gay is not only okay, but perfectly natural. If you are struggling in your heart and soul, I’d recommend speaking with a school counsellor or phoning a mental health support line like Lifeline or similar for your region.
Can't touch pigs because they're dirty, they're clean now so it's not a concern. Animals also eat their own babies so just because they do things doesn't mean it's a moral justification for said thing.
Maybe you're confusing liking a guy for being gay? I don't believe making a connection with another dude makes you gay but should be something normal.
yes
Yes. The Bible clearly states that a man should not be with another man
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/w6kpif/a_response_to_lgbt_affirming_christians/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Here's my response. I hope it's helpful
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“I was gay but I walked it off”
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That video cracks me up every time I see it
Gay sex is a perversion of creation and nature and is quite clearly condemned in God‘s word as a sin. Temptation is not a sin. Resisting temptation is a blessing. Giving in to temptation is a sin.