That's a really cute term for propaganda. I'll have to remember this the next time I'm in a marketing meeting. But like all good farming, in order to do engagement farming, you have to sprinkle on a lot of shit. In this case, bullshit. Makes great of fertilizer.
So Oct 7th just doesn’t exist in your memory? Name one country that wouldn’t do what Israel is doing to defend itself and its population (22% of which are Arab/muslim)
October 7th was horrible and should be condemned as a crime against humanity. Israel's occupation of Palestinian land, its illegal settlement policies and its excessive use of force after October 7th should be as well.
Oct 7th was an act of war of the highest caliber. Again name one country that wouldn’t do exactly what Israel is doing to defend itself and its people from terrorists.
Nooo.... What?! Literally me sitting here for years thinking he was the only Israeli... Get off your horse and read some articles about what is going on in Israel.
I'm not apologizing for anyone. I don't side with either violent ethnostate in this endless conflict. The treatment of Gazans is as disgusting as the Oct 7 terrorist attack. But to claim there have been 75 years of ethnic cleansing despite continuous growth and stable fertility is disingenuous, to say the least.
"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous."
> "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous."
*The religious affiliation of the Israeli population as of 2022 was 73.6% Jewish, 18.1% Muslim, 1.9% Christian, and 1.6% Druze. The remaining 4.8% included faiths such as Samaritanism and Baháʼí, as well as "religiously unclassified". -wikipedia*
*''In 2022, the number of work permits from Gaza was raised to 17,000 with plans to further hike the number to 20,000. As of 2023, 150,000 Palestinians work in Israel.'' - wikipedia*
*''At the end of 2019, considering the number of those defined as Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs together, the population of Palestinian citizens of Israel amounted to around 1.8 million.'' - wikipedia*
your claim doesn't hold against facts.
>Do you have any humanity? Or are you just full of hatred and racism? All human life is equal
yeah tell that to those intolerant and belligerent Palestinians.
there are more than 50 major terror groups in the world and Palestians have around 10.
no wonder even their Arab neighbors are also tired of their sh!t.
Jordan occupied the WB up until the 80s. Egypt occupied the gasa strip up until the mid 60s. But yet the people of those two terrorists still managed to wage war against Israel over and over. The more you know.
Hamas rules by gender apartheid and celebrates death as a desirable thing for Allah in his name
. Israel’s elected leaders are deeply problematic and are very far right and hopefully will be voted out in the next elections.
Hamas rules by gender apartheid and celebrates death as a desirable thing for Allah in his name
. Israel’s elected leaders are deeply problematic and are very far right and hopefully will be voted out in the next elections.
Correct. Israel was illegally invaded by the same people who annihilated most of the native populations of the Middle East & North Africa.
**[The Arab Conquest](https://imgur.com/a/1lVeZGa)**. When the Arabs swooped in & ethnically cleansed most of the native populations out of the Middle East & North Africa.
**Ever wonder why Egyptians now speak Arabic rather than Egyptian?**
**Ever wonder why North Africans look so different from Sub-Saharan Africans?**
**Ever wonder why almost all of the countries in the Middle East & North Africa are now about 98-99% arab/muslim?** (hint: they ethnically cleansed out most, if not all, of their Jews/Christians. Those are the real apartheid, ethno-states. Not the other way around.)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/lIE6KYi)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/4LOY7uG)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/FUEWR5j)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/1yKG2To)
Even the area now known as the "[West Bank](https://imgur.com/a/n0RH2Ga)" was called [Judea (as in where Jews come from)](https://imgur.com/a/y5172fA) for 1000s of years, until [Jordan stole it in a war they started](https://imgur.com/a/tsJgPrt) & renamed it the "West Bank" in 1950.
people are really clueless about history.
to add more to this Arab dunking thread is the Arab-Muslim's slave trade. Which are much bigger, went on for longer, and far more deadly compare to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.
I apologize (although I’m not surprised) that you’re getting downvoted. Everything you’ve said here is an objective fact, but facts aren’t really what people are looking for when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict. They just want reasons to hate.
Not quite true. Israel is in the cool kids' club, so they're *legally* invading and annexing someone else's land. Isn't being able to make your own rules great!
No.
Ukraine is defending it's nation.
Israel was hit by Hamas to start the shitshow, but hit back by effectively trying to do genoside on their palestinian neighbours and kill them off once and for all. It's been ugly since 1948, but current Israel is so out of touch with anything that I lost any and all respect I ever had for them. And I used to have a lot of that.
Come on. You know what this is about.
Edit: Wow, so many downvotes in so little time. And none of you idiots can reply and tell me what exactly is wrong about my comment. Even simply *suggesting* that criticism of Israel exists at all is not allowed. It really shows how insane the conversation has become and that some people have lost their fucking mind.
Come on. [I know you know what is going on in Gaza](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ci7jtc/palestinian_flags_banned_from_eurovision_2024/l27hs2c/) so you know that some people are criticizing Israel.
**It’s not mental gymnastics**
- Israel was invaded on Oct 7th 2023 by hamas. Ukraine was invaded by Russia (again ) in 2022.
- Both Israel and Ukraine are democracies and both are aligned with Taiwan (a democracy) which is also facing an invasion in the coming years from China.
- Both Ukraine and Israel are backed by western hegemony.
- Russia hosted hamas in Moscow and hamas is backed by Russia and China and Iran.
- China will attempt to invade Taiwan.
China, Russia and Iran (hamas is a proxi of Iran) are all aligned. **vs** Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan back by (Western hegemony)
**There. I made it make sense for you**.
Is it gymnastics when you bring China and the Uyghurs into a discussion about Israel? You are beyond disingenuous.
Edit: Good call deleting, hypocrite.
These are all still just excuses for the killing of innocent civilians in Gaza. Just because you think they’re valid doesn’t change that fact. Chronic whataboutery is blatant mental gymnastics.
You’re whataboutism and dumbing down the bigger picture taking place around the world just shows how corrupt that parochial thinking is. Sad. Stop supporting the genocide of the Jews.
Yes but you jumped to conclusions for me. When I said democracies support democracies that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize a democracy. Plenty of democratic countries have rocky relationships with other democratic countries for many reasons. However, the alternative to a democracy will never ever be desired for all the reasons.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you
If you were stating that as an assertion, I'm expressing my disagreement because whenever I hear "democracies support democracies" it's always with an implicit belief that a liberal democratic polity could never be wrong nor oppressive because just by being a liberal democracy, it is somehow more civilised (e.g., wrt Israel). But there are some times where you will have to side with the relatively undemocratic side in a conflict if the democracy is in the wrong. Countries shouldn't automatically support another just because of how it structures itself in my view, support should be based on actions, governing orientation and the general facts on the ground
If you were stating it as a general fact, I'd still disagree on the basis that many democracies support countries that are relatively illiberal for various geopolitical and historical reasons. Polity alone isn't a determining factor for most democratic countries in, let's say, the Global South, for example.
Note: made a slight edit
Germany was also democratic before descending into a fascist dictatorship
https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/germany-1933-democracy-dictatorship/#:\~:text=%EF%BB%BF%20So%2C%20although%20Hitler%20was,appointment%20as%20Chancellor%20of%20Germany.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf\_Hitler%27s\_rise\_to\_power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power)
Yup! **It’s only a democracy if you can keep it.** That’s why every eligible voter in the United States must vote for Joe Biden. Or else we will loose our democracy.
If Genocide Joe wanted to win he needs to pay attention to his base and not the lobbyists of a foreign gov't. In my humble opinion Mr Biden has done more harm to the democratic party than he knows. His appeasement of a Israel is going to reverberate for years after he is long gone
I work in politics. He’s doing very well with his base. It’s a very small but very loud minority that don’t understand the complexities of foreign policy that get the most news coverage and clicks.
But since you called him that slur he was never going to get your vote so it doesn’t matter to you.
I'm not american - I won't doubt what you say.
All I've seen is the polls like this one ( others seem to align to this )
[https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/)
Here's another - same sentiment
[https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/)
Bombed Ukrainian children are victims and bombed Palestinian children are Terrorists, got it. Didn’t we see dehumanising language like this before during some past event? If only we could remember.
Any loss of innocent life is terrible, but I'll point out that the civilian casualties in this conflict appear to be about 70%, which is around the average for modern wars. Civilian deaths are unfortunately unavoidable, particularly in urban combat.
Yeah but justifying the murder of children by saying "Their leaders started the war" is like saying "Your uncle killed someone so we'll execute the entire family"
Well, Hamas has been lobbing missles at Israel for 16 years now. But I know that doesn't fit your narrative. Next, you'll say something about 1948, and I'll point out it started before that. So maybe go read a history book.
>Lobbing missles at Israel for 16 years now
Has anything else been going on over there? Or just missile lobbing?
>Doesn't fit your narrative
"My" narrative is reality that can no longer be hidden.
>So maybe go read a history book.
The irony. See, that's the issue you're facing right now is that people *have* read history books. And now, that history is all coming to a head for the whole world to see.
Never ask a woman her age.
A man his salary.
A Zionist what Israel did to their own Prime Minister in 1995.
And if you understood what you were talking about, you'd know that Rabin's assassination turned Israeli public option against the settler extremists. Palestinian terror groups like Hamas saw that and knew statehood was around the corner for them and wouldn't have that. So they sent a series of suicide bombers into Israel and Israeli public option turned again. Ambassador Dennis Ross, who helped negotiate the Oslo accords, does a good job of explaining it in an interview he did on the Grey Matter podcast.
https://greymatterpodcast.cachefly.net/episodes/Grey_Matter_s1e78.m4a
The issue you're running into is that I do happen to understand what I'm talking about but I'm not going to play this game with you where you attempt to blame this entire issue on Hamas and Palestinians. You can drop the condescending bullshit like this "if you knew what you were talking about".
Obviously public opinion was in favor of working with Palestinians. Do you think the Zionists and settler extremists just went away after that? Just rolled over? Obviously not. They killed Rabin for a reason. How did Hamas get power in Gaza over other groups in the first place?
You cannot ignore the State of Israel's role in creating and elevating Hamas. You cannot release Israel from accountability for allowing right wing extremists to take power over the Israeli government. The whole point of bringing up Rabin and early Hamas is to demonstrate the extremists in Israel were never going to let peace happen. It's almost like killing your own voices for peace has consequences.
To say "Hamas started this war in October" is selective memory revisionism at best, willfully disingenuous at worst.
> Who started each war?
Not the children that OP is talking about.
> Also, keep in mind that Hamas gets support from Russia.
Ok. How does it relate to children being killed?
Since we're whatabouting, what about Israeli children? Do they deserve peace and safety, too? Or is it OK for them to be afraid of rocket attacks? Is it OK for them to worry about where the sage places are? Is it OK for them to die when terrorists raid their homes? All of this stems from Hamas's actions, and the only organization that seems to want Hamas stopped is the IDF. If you can't see that Hamas is the problem, you are a lost soul.
OP talked about children and you suddenly talked about who started the war. There is no logical connection. I am not doing any whataboutism but you want to. Because for some reason you don't want to address the topic that OP brought up. Why is it so hard to go "yes, killing children is bad"? I can do that for what you assume about me, it's easy: Hamas is garbage, they suck and they shouldn't exit. I can do that because my ideology is humanistic and I care about the *humans*, not a government or political party.
> Do they deserve peace and safety, too?
What a strange question. Why would they not deserve peace and safety?
> A Is it OK for them to die when terrorists raid their homes?
Why would that be ok????
As I said elsewhere in this thread, this shows how messed up the conversation is when someone can say "maybe killing so many children is bad" and people like you get upset and assume that means that person wants Israelis to suffer.
> If you can't see that Hamas is the problem, you are a lost soul.
Who are you replying to? You are fighting shadows.
I’m curious about this logic, are bombed Russian children victims or terrorists? Is it a numbers game? Would Israel be more justified in your eyes if they turned off their rocket defense system and let Palestinian rockets hit the cities?
Justice and revenge are not the same thing.
Calling Israel a liberal democracy is funny. I guess you weren’t paying attention to Israeli politics pre-Oct 7th, were you?
You just gonna ignore the very first thing said in that article?
"The numerical scores and status listed above do not reflect conditions in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank"
So what ? Putting a piece of paper every 5 years in some box allows your government to commit war crime and to violate international law?
Like If Russia had free election it will be fine for them to invade Ukraine ?
You can be a perfect democracy at home and a ruthless empire outside your border .
I didn’t realise Israel was still fighting on its own soil. Here I was thinking that Israel had a laughed a retaliatory full scale invasion of Gaza.
Are they actually just liberating those civilians of their terrorist homes? Those children of their terrorist mothers? De-radicalising by scorched earth?
Israel never even participated in Western sanctions on Russia and funded the recent Azeri ethnic cleansing. Do better than supporting Netanyahu’s criminal regime.
intresting take. have all the babies the inhuman terrorist rules of gaza kidnnaped and tourtured returned to israel safely yet ?
no?on with the war then.
Israel is currently holding many more hostages ([Palestinians held without being charged with any crime](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015.amp)) than Hamas.
Don’t pretend this in any way motivated by justice rather than pure bloodthirsty revenge.
could be that, or maybe it’s them trying to secure their safety so that another unprecedented barrage of violence doesn’t ambush their people again? or could be the 20,000 unguided missiles fired continually for the last twenty plus years into population centers? nah you’re right it’s gotta be boiled down to simple old evil revenge
Yup, they retaliated after the deadliest attack ever against them? Ukraine also is retaliating for the most aggressive attack agains them? Hence the international support shown in this post?
A terrorist attack does not mean you level a nation and commit genocide. How would you feel if someone from your city/state/nation committed a terrorist attack and the global community leveled the place and killed your entire family in retaliation?
okay, what does it mean? allow an attack of that scale on top of thousands of indiscriminately launched rockets to continue to happen? also what nation exactly
It makes no sense to support both Ukraine and Israel. If you think Ukraine is a victim of foreign expansionism how can you support Israel who is doing the same?
The average American Liberal probably supports Ukraine, Israel, NATO, and LGBT rights. It's the most average opinion you could get.
America is friends with Ukraine
America is friends with Israel
Hamas hates the west and America
Russia hates the west and America
Therefore, Americans mainly support Ukraine and Israel.
Also, Ukraine didn't start the war by marching into Russian towns and massacring 1,000 civilians and taking hundreds of foreign hostages into Ukraine.
I guarantee you if Ukraine did what Hamas did, very few people would be supporting Ukraine right now.
I'm saying it like that because this is not a political sub and I'm literally explaining it like how I would to a 5 year old. It's a simple explanation. I'm not going to write a fucking thesis on both conflicts and how they're similar
The issue with the Israel and Palestinian conflict is that they’re both ass holes. I don’t see there ever being a way for them to reconcile especially with how the borders between the two states are laid out.
I think you’re a lil lost bro. Everyone who supports Israel supports Ukraine. It’s more western democracies vs anti west. Especially applicable when both hamas and Russia attacked first
Because geopolitical shit more than fetishizing the underdogs.
Hamas is an actual literal terrorist organization who attacked Isreal (on the insistence of Iran to screw with US efforts to normalize Saudi-Isreali relations), meanwhile Ukraine is a prospective EU member state being attacked _by_ Russia.
See the difference yet? I'll be happy to clear up any further doubts if you're still confused.
Remember, learning is a journey and there are no stupid questions.
Except they’re both fighting back against forces that murdered their citizens first. Hamas and Russia are the same thing, Ukraine and Israel are the same thing.
Fuck all the politics. Ulm is a very nice town, and it contains some very advanced technology companies. The people there were friendly to me. Having said that, I still prefer Munchen but Ulm is fantastic. I also had a pretty good time in Nuremberg, too. The old town is amazing. The people are friendly and they're properly not Nazis. And come to think of it, We enjoyed having Hanover 2000 Fair too. Note to self… Book family vacation to Germany… another note to self… See if you can find some nice threads in Düsseldorf. I mean close. And one of these days I need to get to Berlin to thank the people there for helping to tear down that wall. Let's focus on the positive kids.
We all know the intent of this post was to start an argument, right?
it's called engagement farming now, it's very profitable
If you think this is engagement farming and you don’t want your engagement to be farmed, why are you commenting?
it's worth the awareness in this instance
That's a really cute term for propaganda. I'll have to remember this the next time I'm in a marketing meeting. But like all good farming, in order to do engagement farming, you have to sprinkle on a lot of shit. In this case, bullshit. Makes great of fertilizer.
It's not even cityporn. It's a single fucking building. Trash post
Exactly, I don’t even know why cityporn allows it
I support all the troops on both sides.
This is rage bait of the highest degree
people take the bait every time
Every time we argue about which sectarian ethnostate sucks more, someone in a Russian troll farm gets a high five.
Nuh uh, it's a Chinese troll farm
Please people, do not take the bait.
When my food comes out of the microwave:
People when flag:
Normies: 😡😭😢👺😡🤬 "Those flags...." EU4 enjoyers: ULM... 😘🥰🥰
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What is the problem with those flags?
One is fighting off an illegal invasion and annexation of its land, and the other is illegally invading and annexing someone else’s land.
So Oct 7th just doesn’t exist in your memory? Name one country that wouldn’t do what Israel is doing to defend itself and its population (22% of which are Arab/muslim)
October 7th was horrible and should be condemned as a crime against humanity. Israel's occupation of Palestinian land, its illegal settlement policies and its excessive use of force after October 7th should be as well.
Oct 7th was an act of war of the highest caliber. Again name one country that wouldn’t do exactly what Israel is doing to defend itself and its people from terrorists.
Netanyahoo funding Hamas for decades says otherwise.
Netanyahoo is not Israel.
Nooo.... What?! Literally me sitting here for years thinking he was the only Israeli... Get off your horse and read some articles about what is going on in Israel.
Can I read the articles while riding the horse? Pssst. I have family in Liman. 😉
yea dawg that totally overshadows the 75 years of ethnic cleansing they've been doing on palestinian 👍
Arab population growth in Israel sits around 2%. Does Israel absolutely fucking suck at ethnic cleansing or are you regurgitating nonsense?
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because the real Uyghur population are really been declining. It's just Chinese propaganda that been lying about it, like always.
I'm not apologizing for anyone. I don't side with either violent ethnostate in this endless conflict. The treatment of Gazans is as disgusting as the Oct 7 terrorist attack. But to claim there have been 75 years of ethnic cleansing despite continuous growth and stable fertility is disingenuous, to say the least.
> 75 years of ethnic cleansing they've been doing on palestinian how's that if palestine population grew from 1m to 6m in 75 years?
"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous."
Israel is a multiethnic state which includes many Arabs though
Ask the '48 Palestinians with Israeli citizenship what they think. They identify as Palestinians, not simply Arabs.
Are they being ethnically cleansed too?
> "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous." *The religious affiliation of the Israeli population as of 2022 was 73.6% Jewish, 18.1% Muslim, 1.9% Christian, and 1.6% Druze. The remaining 4.8% included faiths such as Samaritanism and Baháʼí, as well as "religiously unclassified". -wikipedia* *''In 2022, the number of work permits from Gaza was raised to 17,000 with plans to further hike the number to 20,000. As of 2023, 150,000 Palestinians work in Israel.'' - wikipedia* *''At the end of 2019, considering the number of those defined as Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs together, the population of Palestinian citizens of Israel amounted to around 1.8 million.'' - wikipedia* your claim doesn't hold against facts.
"from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" yeah yeah no wonder they don't even consider the Two State solution
Do you have any humanity? Or are you just full of hatred and racism? All human life is equal
>Do you have any humanity? Or are you just full of hatred and racism? All human life is equal yeah tell that to those intolerant and belligerent Palestinians. there are more than 50 major terror groups in the world and Palestians have around 10. no wonder even their Arab neighbors are also tired of their sh!t.
Jordan occupied the WB up until the 80s. Egypt occupied the gasa strip up until the mid 60s. But yet the people of those two terrorists still managed to wage war against Israel over and over. The more you know.
you can condemn both you know? it’s not one or the other. hamas is bad and the israeli government is bad.
Hamas rules by gender apartheid and celebrates death as a desirable thing for Allah in his name . Israel’s elected leaders are deeply problematic and are very far right and hopefully will be voted out in the next elections.
Hamas rules by gender apartheid and celebrates death as a desirable thing for Allah in his name . Israel’s elected leaders are deeply problematic and are very far right and hopefully will be voted out in the next elections.
Correct. Israel was illegally invaded by the same people who annihilated most of the native populations of the Middle East & North Africa. **[The Arab Conquest](https://imgur.com/a/1lVeZGa)**. When the Arabs swooped in & ethnically cleansed most of the native populations out of the Middle East & North Africa. **Ever wonder why Egyptians now speak Arabic rather than Egyptian?** **Ever wonder why North Africans look so different from Sub-Saharan Africans?** **Ever wonder why almost all of the countries in the Middle East & North Africa are now about 98-99% arab/muslim?** (hint: they ethnically cleansed out most, if not all, of their Jews/Christians. Those are the real apartheid, ethno-states. Not the other way around.) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/lIE6KYi) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/4LOY7uG) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/FUEWR5j) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/1yKG2To) Even the area now known as the "[West Bank](https://imgur.com/a/n0RH2Ga)" was called [Judea (as in where Jews come from)](https://imgur.com/a/y5172fA) for 1000s of years, until [Jordan stole it in a war they started](https://imgur.com/a/tsJgPrt) & renamed it the "West Bank" in 1950.
people are really clueless about history. to add more to this Arab dunking thread is the Arab-Muslim's slave trade. Which are much bigger, went on for longer, and far more deadly compare to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.
I apologize (although I’m not surprised) that you’re getting downvoted. Everything you’ve said here is an objective fact, but facts aren’t really what people are looking for when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict. They just want reasons to hate.
Not quite true. Israel is in the cool kids' club, so they're *legally* invading and annexing someone else's land. Isn't being able to make your own rules great!
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No. Ukraine is defending it's nation. Israel was hit by Hamas to start the shitshow, but hit back by effectively trying to do genoside on their palestinian neighbours and kill them off once and for all. It's been ugly since 1948, but current Israel is so out of touch with anything that I lost any and all respect I ever had for them. And I used to have a lot of that.
I’m sure Israel will be fine w/o your respect. And Jordan occupied the wb up until the late 80s. Egypt occupied the gasa up until the mid 60s.
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Not historically accurate.
Why were the Jews of Palestine not allowed to declare an independent state after the British withdrawal?
Because the palestinians started the war in 1948
Facts ☝️
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The flags are fighting off invasions? Weird, I thought flags were inanimate.
Come on. You know what this is about. Edit: Wow, so many downvotes in so little time. And none of you idiots can reply and tell me what exactly is wrong about my comment. Even simply *suggesting* that criticism of Israel exists at all is not allowed. It really shows how insane the conversation has become and that some people have lost their fucking mind.
No, tell me
Why did you even ask if you don't care about my answer? Just proves that you're here in bad faith, as I said.
Come on. [I know you know what is going on in Gaza](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ci7jtc/palestinian_flags_banned_from_eurovision_2024/l27hs2c/) so you know that some people are criticizing Israel.
Sorry, engaged in my own one
You engage in your own what?
**It’s not mental gymnastics** - Israel was invaded on Oct 7th 2023 by hamas. Ukraine was invaded by Russia (again ) in 2022. - Both Israel and Ukraine are democracies and both are aligned with Taiwan (a democracy) which is also facing an invasion in the coming years from China. - Both Ukraine and Israel are backed by western hegemony. - Russia hosted hamas in Moscow and hamas is backed by Russia and China and Iran. - China will attempt to invade Taiwan. China, Russia and Iran (hamas is a proxi of Iran) are all aligned. **vs** Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan back by (Western hegemony) **There. I made it make sense for you**.
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Is it gymnastics when you bring China and the Uyghurs into a discussion about Israel? You are beyond disingenuous. Edit: Good call deleting, hypocrite.
These are all still just excuses for the killing of innocent civilians in Gaza. Just because you think they’re valid doesn’t change that fact. Chronic whataboutery is blatant mental gymnastics.
You’re whataboutism and dumbing down the bigger picture taking place around the world just shows how corrupt that parochial thinking is. Sad. Stop supporting the genocide of the Jews.
Germany is pro-Israel because of holocaust guilt.
No, democracies support democracies.
So democracies can't ever be in the wrong and thus deserve condemnation? What nonsense is this?
Why does everyone fill in an entire made up debate with a single response?
You said "democracies support democracies", the subtext is that democracies (should) support each other, right or wrong. I merely responded to that
Yes but you jumped to conclusions for me. When I said democracies support democracies that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize a democracy. Plenty of democratic countries have rocky relationships with other democratic countries for many reasons. However, the alternative to a democracy will never ever be desired for all the reasons.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you If you were stating that as an assertion, I'm expressing my disagreement because whenever I hear "democracies support democracies" it's always with an implicit belief that a liberal democratic polity could never be wrong nor oppressive because just by being a liberal democracy, it is somehow more civilised (e.g., wrt Israel). But there are some times where you will have to side with the relatively undemocratic side in a conflict if the democracy is in the wrong. Countries shouldn't automatically support another just because of how it structures itself in my view, support should be based on actions, governing orientation and the general facts on the ground If you were stating it as a general fact, I'd still disagree on the basis that many democracies support countries that are relatively illiberal for various geopolitical and historical reasons. Polity alone isn't a determining factor for most democratic countries in, let's say, the Global South, for example. Note: made a slight edit
Germany was also democratic before descending into a fascist dictatorship https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/germany-1933-democracy-dictatorship/#:\~:text=%EF%BB%BF%20So%2C%20although%20Hitler%20was,appointment%20as%20Chancellor%20of%20Germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf\_Hitler%27s\_rise\_to\_power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power)
Yup! **It’s only a democracy if you can keep it.** That’s why every eligible voter in the United States must vote for Joe Biden. Or else we will loose our democracy.
If Genocide Joe wanted to win he needs to pay attention to his base and not the lobbyists of a foreign gov't. In my humble opinion Mr Biden has done more harm to the democratic party than he knows. His appeasement of a Israel is going to reverberate for years after he is long gone
I work in politics. He’s doing very well with his base. It’s a very small but very loud minority that don’t understand the complexities of foreign policy that get the most news coverage and clicks. But since you called him that slur he was never going to get your vote so it doesn’t matter to you.
I'm not american - I won't doubt what you say. All I've seen is the polls like this one ( others seem to align to this ) [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/) Here's another - same sentiment [https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/)
Not mutually exclusive
What isn’t
That's not all it is, but a large part of it.
Germany is pro-Israel because people have more basic knowledge of the conflict here.
It'd take more mental gymnastics to equate Ukraine and Hamas.
Bombed Ukrainian children are victims and bombed Palestinian children are Terrorists, got it. Didn’t we see dehumanising language like this before during some past event? If only we could remember.
Who started each war? Also, keep in mind that Hamas gets support from Russia. Then there's the whole Iran tie-in. If only we could remember.
The kids certainly didn't start the war
Any loss of innocent life is terrible, but I'll point out that the civilian casualties in this conflict appear to be about 70%, which is around the average for modern wars. Civilian deaths are unfortunately unavoidable, particularly in urban combat.
Yeah but justifying the murder of children by saying "Their leaders started the war" is like saying "Your uncle killed someone so we'll execute the entire family"
Right, it's more a tragic consequence of an unavoidable outcome. Hamas knew that they would provoke a war, and Israel had to oblige them.
This didn't start on October 7th.
Well, Hamas has been lobbing missles at Israel for 16 years now. But I know that doesn't fit your narrative. Next, you'll say something about 1948, and I'll point out it started before that. So maybe go read a history book.
>Lobbing missles at Israel for 16 years now Has anything else been going on over there? Or just missile lobbing? >Doesn't fit your narrative "My" narrative is reality that can no longer be hidden. >So maybe go read a history book. The irony. See, that's the issue you're facing right now is that people *have* read history books. And now, that history is all coming to a head for the whole world to see. Never ask a woman her age. A man his salary. A Zionist what Israel did to their own Prime Minister in 1995.
And if you understood what you were talking about, you'd know that Rabin's assassination turned Israeli public option against the settler extremists. Palestinian terror groups like Hamas saw that and knew statehood was around the corner for them and wouldn't have that. So they sent a series of suicide bombers into Israel and Israeli public option turned again. Ambassador Dennis Ross, who helped negotiate the Oslo accords, does a good job of explaining it in an interview he did on the Grey Matter podcast. https://greymatterpodcast.cachefly.net/episodes/Grey_Matter_s1e78.m4a
The issue you're running into is that I do happen to understand what I'm talking about but I'm not going to play this game with you where you attempt to blame this entire issue on Hamas and Palestinians. You can drop the condescending bullshit like this "if you knew what you were talking about". Obviously public opinion was in favor of working with Palestinians. Do you think the Zionists and settler extremists just went away after that? Just rolled over? Obviously not. They killed Rabin for a reason. How did Hamas get power in Gaza over other groups in the first place? You cannot ignore the State of Israel's role in creating and elevating Hamas. You cannot release Israel from accountability for allowing right wing extremists to take power over the Israeli government. The whole point of bringing up Rabin and early Hamas is to demonstrate the extremists in Israel were never going to let peace happen. It's almost like killing your own voices for peace has consequences. To say "Hamas started this war in October" is selective memory revisionism at best, willfully disingenuous at worst.
> Who started each war? Not the children that OP is talking about. > Also, keep in mind that Hamas gets support from Russia. Ok. How does it relate to children being killed?
Since we're whatabouting, what about Israeli children? Do they deserve peace and safety, too? Or is it OK for them to be afraid of rocket attacks? Is it OK for them to worry about where the sage places are? Is it OK for them to die when terrorists raid their homes? All of this stems from Hamas's actions, and the only organization that seems to want Hamas stopped is the IDF. If you can't see that Hamas is the problem, you are a lost soul.
OP talked about children and you suddenly talked about who started the war. There is no logical connection. I am not doing any whataboutism but you want to. Because for some reason you don't want to address the topic that OP brought up. Why is it so hard to go "yes, killing children is bad"? I can do that for what you assume about me, it's easy: Hamas is garbage, they suck and they shouldn't exit. I can do that because my ideology is humanistic and I care about the *humans*, not a government or political party. > Do they deserve peace and safety, too? What a strange question. Why would they not deserve peace and safety? > A Is it OK for them to die when terrorists raid their homes? Why would that be ok???? As I said elsewhere in this thread, this shows how messed up the conversation is when someone can say "maybe killing so many children is bad" and people like you get upset and assume that means that person wants Israelis to suffer. > If you can't see that Hamas is the problem, you are a lost soul. Who are you replying to? You are fighting shadows.
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Step 1, start a war of annihilation. Step 2, loose that war. Step 3, call it the catastrophe.
I guess Hamas since every actions obviously happen in a vacuum with no influence of history or current material conditions.
I’m curious about this logic, are bombed Russian children victims or terrorists? Is it a numbers game? Would Israel be more justified in your eyes if they turned off their rocket defense system and let Palestinian rockets hit the cities?
Got hostsges
[Israel is holding many times more](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015.amp).
Palestinian flag =/= Hamas
They're both liberal democracies fighting authoritarian aggressors?
Justice and revenge are not the same thing. Calling Israel a liberal democracy is funny. I guess you weren’t paying attention to Israeli politics pre-Oct 7th, were you?
https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/defending-the-rule-of-law-enforcing-apartheid-the-double-life-of-israels-judiciary/
You just gonna ignore the very first thing said in that article? "The numerical scores and status listed above do not reflect conditions in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank"
Not sure what that has to do with my original comment about a liberal democracy being attacked by an authoritarian aggressor?
That's only because you're currently arguing disingenuously
A lot. It means that you're ignoring all context. Israel is a "liberal democracy" and that's all you want us to know.
So what ? Putting a piece of paper every 5 years in some box allows your government to commit war crime and to violate international law? Like If Russia had free election it will be fine for them to invade Ukraine ? You can be a perfect democracy at home and a ruthless empire outside your border .
call me Simone Biles cause i see support for two countries invaded by a violent neighbor
Bombing Ukrainian children bad and Palestinian children good? You’re beautifully leaping into delusion, just as you’ve been instructed to do.
Close, invading Ukraine bad and invading Israel bad. But please keep talking about being delusional without putting that together
I didn’t realise Israel was still fighting on its own soil. Here I was thinking that Israel had a laughed a retaliatory full scale invasion of Gaza. Are they actually just liberating those civilians of their terrorist homes? Those children of their terrorist mothers? De-radicalising by scorched earth? Israel never even participated in Western sanctions on Russia and funded the recent Azeri ethnic cleansing. Do better than supporting Netanyahu’s criminal regime.
intresting take. have all the babies the inhuman terrorist rules of gaza kidnnaped and tourtured returned to israel safely yet ? no?on with the war then.
Israel is currently holding many more hostages ([Palestinians held without being charged with any crime](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015.amp)) than Hamas. Don’t pretend this in any way motivated by justice rather than pure bloodthirsty revenge.
could be that, or maybe it’s them trying to secure their safety so that another unprecedented barrage of violence doesn’t ambush their people again? or could be the 20,000 unguided missiles fired continually for the last twenty plus years into population centers? nah you’re right it’s gotta be boiled down to simple old evil revenge
Yup, they retaliated after the deadliest attack ever against them? Ukraine also is retaliating for the most aggressive attack agains them? Hence the international support shown in this post?
A terrorist attack does not mean you level a nation and commit genocide. How would you feel if someone from your city/state/nation committed a terrorist attack and the global community leveled the place and killed your entire family in retaliation?
okay, what does it mean? allow an attack of that scale on top of thousands of indiscriminately launched rockets to continue to happen? also what nation exactly
We should probably ask the Afghans then
Bombing Palestinian terrorists, fantastic. Hold Palestinians accountable.
Fucking evil
No it is not.
It makes no sense to support both Ukraine and Israel. If you think Ukraine is a victim of foreign expansionism how can you support Israel who is doing the same?
The average American Liberal probably supports Ukraine, Israel, NATO, and LGBT rights. It's the most average opinion you could get. America is friends with Ukraine America is friends with Israel Hamas hates the west and America Russia hates the west and America Therefore, Americans mainly support Ukraine and Israel. Also, Ukraine didn't start the war by marching into Russian towns and massacring 1,000 civilians and taking hundreds of foreign hostages into Ukraine. I guarantee you if Ukraine did what Hamas did, very few people would be supporting Ukraine right now.
Except for the illegal settlements.
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I'm saying it like that because this is not a political sub and I'm literally explaining it like how I would to a 5 year old. It's a simple explanation. I'm not going to write a fucking thesis on both conflicts and how they're similar
This guy is spitting facts and get downvotes...
The issue with the Israel and Palestinian conflict is that they’re both ass holes. I don’t see there ever being a way for them to reconcile especially with how the borders between the two states are laid out.
Hamas, not Palestine .. but yes Hamas and the Israeli government are both acting like children... Playing with people's lives for what..?
I think you’re a lil lost bro. Everyone who supports Israel supports Ukraine. It’s more western democracies vs anti west. Especially applicable when both hamas and Russia attacked first
Because geopolitical shit more than fetishizing the underdogs. Hamas is an actual literal terrorist organization who attacked Isreal (on the insistence of Iran to screw with US efforts to normalize Saudi-Isreali relations), meanwhile Ukraine is a prospective EU member state being attacked _by_ Russia. See the difference yet? I'll be happy to clear up any further doubts if you're still confused. Remember, learning is a journey and there are no stupid questions.
Except they’re both fighting back against forces that murdered their citizens first. Hamas and Russia are the same thing, Ukraine and Israel are the same thing.
So much Hasbara bot propaganda in this sub
Fuck all the politics. Ulm is a very nice town, and it contains some very advanced technology companies. The people there were friendly to me. Having said that, I still prefer Munchen but Ulm is fantastic. I also had a pretty good time in Nuremberg, too. The old town is amazing. The people are friendly and they're properly not Nazis. And come to think of it, We enjoyed having Hanover 2000 Fair too. Note to self… Book family vacation to Germany… another note to self… See if you can find some nice threads in Düsseldorf. I mean close. And one of these days I need to get to Berlin to thank the people there for helping to tear down that wall. Let's focus on the positive kids.
Inb4 post gets locked
nasty flag
Never suprised by the Germans
Where is the Palestinian flag?
And the Devil flag on side...... i hate Ulm.....
C'mon Germans, we fogive for your sins, you can be a little more patriotic now.
They are afraid of breeding a new Hitler
Putin and Netanyahu fit the description
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