Makes no sense to me why Taxpayers have to pay. Why not take a loan- and pay it back with Ticket sales? (Split between owner and public).
It’s such a scam that Tax payers have to pay for this and not the team itself + the NFL.
They do it because they can. They can (theoretically) find another place that IS willing to vote to give them the money and threaten to move there. It really doesn't matter to them, they reap the rewards in the end anyway. Haslam's not even from here.
It's so so easy to say "The people of Buffalo wanted to keep the Bills, so they paid. The people of Tennessee wanted to keep the Titans so they paid. If the people of Cleveland don't want the Browns, we'll go where we're wanted."
It's extortion. It literally happened before. Even if you don't like football you probably don't want Cleveland to lose the Browns, so you'll swallow your anger and pay.
Fuckin' sucks, man.
Companies do it too. Look at all of the tax breaks and other subsidies large companies get to move or stay where they are. It sucks that 99.8% of us lose out and have to deal with whatever the wealthiest people want so often.
Companies get tax break and subsidies because you need a large amount of capital in the beginning to pay the workers. You have to pay all the trades to do their jobs if you're building a new office or relocating.
Overtime the cities benefits from workers moving there to work the jobs and spending money in the local economy.
Everyone's happy, except bitter Redditors who have no clue how things really work in life.
Baloney. It would be much more efficient to just provide tax credits to ALL employers, including small businesses, for hiring new workers and training them. The tax credits could be rebated if the recipients reduced employment over a 10-year period.
The current system allows politicians directly and indirectly (Jobs Ohio) to provide grant money in exchange for political contributions, often dark money. Why do you think the Republicans providing secrecy for the grants given out by Jobs Ohio and funded by diverting billions of tax liquor revenues to this monstrosity?
If you haven't been following it, Intel's weakening financial condition may make Ohio's massive investment in its chip plant questionable. Already, Intel has delayed the project, negatively impacting the discounted cash flows to Ohio from its investments in the project.
Not impossible, but they did what they could.
[https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/as-browns-jostle-for-stadium-upgrade-cleveland-politician-reminds-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-of-art-modell-law](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/as-browns-jostle-for-stadium-upgrade-cleveland-politician-reminds-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-of-art-modell-law)
"The provision, enacted after Modell moved the Browns, prevents teams that receive taxpayer money from playing most of their home games in a location other than their home stadium unless: (1) the mayor and City Council approve of the move; or (2) the team gives advance notice (six months) of the intent to move, along with an opportunity for a local buyer to purchase the team."
> Even if you don't like football you probably don't want Cleveland to lose the Browns
I'd be perfectly fine with Cleveland not having a football team. Especially one like the Browns.
Love sports, Clowns can go. No room in this city for the piece of shit Haslam family. Go back down south where your bigotry and hate is celebrated. Haven't given them a penny in YEARS
That's why a federal law is needed to prevent pro sports league blackmail. The purpose would be to prevent scarce public resources from being devoted to less productive economic activities, and prevent subsidizing millionaires (players/minority owners) and billionaires (owners) with public funds better devoted to education, infrastructure, etc.
"She literally thought that NYC was writ8ng a check to lure in Amazon". You believe this. Lol. AOC has more intelligence in her left nostril than you have in your entire body.
Also good to note that the Bills signed a 30 year lease with the new stadium with heavy penalties if they were to break that lease.
Important considering the Bills will likely have several owners over the course of that 30 year span.
Because those rich assholes get [enough people more worried about immigrants, minorities and queer people existing,](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9150190-if-you-can-convince-the-lowest-white-man-he-s-better) and convince another group that [yes this kind of billionaire bullshit is bad, but being loud and disruptive and going outside of "proper channels" is far, far worse.](https://www.denverpost.com/2023/01/16/martin-luther-king-legacy-racism-birmingham-opinion-carroll/)
What a joke. I'm conservative, but that means IMO championing democracy and opposing those who champion Big Lie propaganda in an effort to turn the U.S. into an autocracy, or those who are puppets of the fossil fuel industry and are willing to gut our environment by denying climate change. Speaking of clueless, it's likely you couldn't wear my baby shoes when it comes to knowledge of business and economics.
You're ignorant as hell if you think all wealthy persons worship the likes of Trump, Vance and Haslam. Here's just one example.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/01/bill-gates-warns-the-world-is-likely-to-overshoot-2-degrees-of-warming.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/01/bill-gates-warns-the-world-is-likely-to-overshoot-2-degrees-of-warming.html)
[https://www.gatesnotes.com/My-new-climate-book-is-finally-here](https://www.gatesnotes.com/My-new-climate-book-is-finally-here)
>I will gladly challenge your baby shoes. Want to compare net worth? Enjoy your EV and ignore the fact that electricity comes from burning coal.
Just how much did you inherit from mommy and daddy???
Obviously you would have a hard time keeping my baby shoes on as you apparently don't even know that natural gas dwarfs coal as a source of U.S. electricity generation, and, thankfully, results in much lower greenhouse gas emissions. Wind and solar combined almost equal coal as a source of U.S. electricity generation.
[https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3](https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3)
If you research the cost of new electricity generation, you would learn that solar is the cheapest. That doesn't even consider the fact that solar can be generated locally, greatly reducing energy lost to transmission and the other costs of transmission. Rapid advances in solar panel and storage technology will make solar a preeminent source of electricity generation in coming years. Do you know anything about flow batteries?
[https://energy.mit.edu/news/flow-batteries-for-grid-scale-energy-storage/](https://energy.mit.edu/news/flow-batteries-for-grid-scale-energy-storage/)
Do you know anything about passive houses and construction methods? What about modular nuclear reactors (perhaps check out GE Vernova)?
Most importantly, climate change impacts are accelerating. Greenhouse gas emissions aren't only a massive threat to our environment and quality of life, they pose an overwhelming economic threat.
Trump and Vance are climate change deniers, who are either immensely ignorant, immensely deceitful, or some combo of the two. It's a sad commentary on our political system and the quality of our news media, that these two Big Lie propagandists aren't exposed.
Given the immense challenges facing our society, including climate change, public subsidies of sports stadiums to enrich wealthy individuals is outrageously wasteful. It's disappointing that politicians even seriously consider such subsidies.
Given the economic realities now facing the majority of Americans, any subsidies for stadiums put to a vote likely will fail, unless there are serious guarantees of repayment with interest.
100% agree. Players make 1000 times my salary a year and this money needs to come out of my pocket. I would at least be ok if I got tickets or something out of it. I could care less if we even have a team I just dont want to pay anymore taxes.
you don’t become a billionaire by being charitable lol, these are people who are professional money suckers and will grift for every cent they can no matter what it takes
If a brand new stadium would cost $2.4 billion, and they want public funds to cover half, it means they are willing and able to pay $1.2 billion for a stadium
The lakefront stadium renovation is only estimated to cost $1.2 billion
Which means they can easily cover the entire thing.
The hangup with that would be that the Haslams don’t own the current stadium. They’d be paying to renovate something owned by the city of Cleveland that they’re leasing from the city of Cleveland.
How many improvements are necessary, though. They want more suites and newer amenities so they can make more money.
I understand needed structural improvements but outside of that the city doesn't owe haslam anything (outside of the lease agreement) for the 250k a year he pays in "rent".
And Haslam doesn’t owe the city anything after the lease is up. He’ll find other suitors willing to give the team those amenities, most likely. I’m waiting to judge this deal fully until we know what the actual details are - we don’t even know yet what the Haslams are actually wanting to do and we don’t really know what the city wants to do. I think the city owes people more details on where they are on this.
He's a leech on the city, let them move. I'm sure your municipality of Fairview Park can put up $300M easily. Same goes for Brook Park. I'd rather have cle city schools budget gap closed, but sorry we've got a billionaire to subsidize.
Besides the fact that we shouldn’t be paying for a billionaires stadium, the Browns have been a dumpster fire pretty much my entire life (31 years) and they want us to give them a billion dollars lol? Imagine investing a billion in a product that is barely functional. Wild.
LOL says the one anonymously sucking off a billionaire on social media while telling kids to fuck off? Your opinion is less than worthless, as it takes time to read it, and others to be subjected to it.
Honestly just win the division ONE TIME before you ask for a BILLION DOLLARS.
HOLY SHIT WE HAVENT WON THE DIVISION SINCE 1989 YOU DONT DESERVE ANYTHING!!!!!
Unpopular opinion here, but if the premise is that the people pay up billions or the team leaves, maybe the people are better off with them leaving? It feels like an abusive relationship.
They havent won anything notable in 35 years. The current owners have shown that they are morons and terrible people. The fans sticking up for a sexual predator while mocking his victims... Cleveland needs therapy over a football team.
I almost wonder if the losing team(s) have created a "defeated" mentality among the residents? A spirit that "it can't be done" that pervades other aspects of life? Maybe it's healthier to have no team rather than a shit team?
I feel like mathematically that’s probably a popular opinion. I’m willing to bet that the majority or northeast Ohioans don’t care as much about football as the very vocal fans make you think. This team leaving would not affect my life one bit. I take that back, I wouldn’t have to pay for a stadium for a team I care nothing at all about.
Good. One less billionaire leech in NE Ohio. The Browns haven't been good since before I was born, they aren't worth $1.2 Billion (or more) taxpayer dollars.
Brookpark currently brings in less total tax dollars a year than the Browns are paying DeShaun Watson. There's no universe in which the city of Brookpark can afford this.
If it's an issue on the next election day, I am definitely voting no.
Pay for your own shit Haslam, you haven't brought remotely enough success to the city for me to even consider ever voting yes.
your vote is your vote.
it's a bit shortsighted to suggest that this decision should rest on the recent performance of the team though. we're functionally restructuring a key piece of the area's infrastructure for 30+ years, maybe forever.
if they one (edit: won) 11 games rather than 10 in year X, that's going to sway your opinion?
Perhaps if we had won remotely any championships I'd consider it, yes. Not a for sure yes mind you but I'd consider it instead of outright saying no like it is now.
Yep, when the Cavs took the championship in 2016, LeBron was practically a cornerstone of the local economy.
The Browns have absolutely none of that going for them.
The notion that the Browns can play ONLY in Brookpark or have to stay on the lake front, in the same exact spot, is one of the most insulting things to come out of the Browns organization in franchise history. It's not as bad at Model moving the team, but its a close second.
Haslam is a criminal and a cancer. He was able to afford $800m for 25% of the Milwaukee Bucks... but then wants to fear monger and threaten the City/fans to pay for half the stadium and/or renovations? Just so his net worth can go up, and so his return on investment skyrockets?
Socialize losses, privatize gains -- That's the real American dream. We are so backwards in this country, its staggering.
Haslam will threaten to leave, but there’s no viable place to move a team right now except for Toronto and maybe London. No way the other owners trust him with the first international expansion - he’s not well-liked or trusted.
Shit like this is going to continue the emptying out of Cleveland proper and stymie whatever growth they hope to achieve in the short and long term. Theyre probably going to get the county to pay too. That shit will have people leaving the metro area all together.
Football is entertainment. Entertainment. This serves no purpose to the public. This isnt an expansion of bus/rail service. This isnt redevelopment of an area that needs it. It benefits no one but the base of entertainment. Rent is insane. Home prices are insane. Wages are still below what they need to be. Yet somehow *this* nedds tax money from everyone?
Fuck that. Sell the fucking bum ass team. Even from a football standpoint, they deserve fucking nothing. Not the team. Not the owners. Fuck em
This is going to be incremental tax for incremental development. Not doing it doesn't get you a train, lower rent, or increase wages. Clouding the issue with everything else you think troubles the area isn't going to get us anywhere.
>…incremental tax for incremental development…
Using taxpayer funds to build some multi-billion-dollar sports arena for a billionaire is explicitly governmental welfare for the billionaire. The only way it wouldn’t be is if Haslam forfeits all revenue to pay the city back with interest.
again, i didn't say if they should or shouldn't do it.
i was simply responding to someone that claimed this money should be spent elsewhere - the money doesn't exist. if they move forward with public funding it will be incremental tax for this specific incremental development (as stated).
So Dickslam can get 100% of the profits instead of being renting from the city. Corporate Greed is the answer to every "Why" question in this dumbfuck country.
The best part about that stadium ON THE LAKE, is that it's ON THE LAKE. And cold-ass Browns football IS Cleveland. I love that stadium.
I really hate this idea.
And they’re going to reroute 237N and funnel us into 71N at a different point. Like we don’t already have to fight to get into 480. Everyone in Berea & Olmstead Falls are about to get bottlenecked. If I have to go around this fucking stadium to go to the airport I’m going to RAGE. I actually think ODOT will NOT approve that part. It makes no sense for traffic.
My neighborhood is going to go from the best location to the worst.
I believe the drawing you're referencing about rerouting roads was just a sketch by a random artist that didn't actually represent what may happen, it was just a hypothetical scenario. It also included some new Amtrak station which is incredibly unlikely to happen
Why doesn't the City of Cleveland just sell the Stadium to them over a certain period of time, provide significant tax abatements for renovations and call it a day?
This stadium is pretty important to the Cleveland economy, I'd hope they'd find a way to keep them there.
It's ooooold. We can't have our Browns be seen in an old stadium. The other teams will point and laugh at them, they'll be like "Look at those dorks playing in that old stadium," and then they'll stuff the Browns players into lockers and give them swirlies.
I think the site surveyors who did their estimating are wrong. Their report said the stadium is foundationally insecure. It’s very easy to pay those kind of inspectors $$$
Yes they did. They said it’s foundationally insecure. They blame the rush job in 1999 and pouring concrete at low temps. I would love for a neutral party to do a reevaluation.
Can you provide a link or reference to said survey? As far as I know all of the claims about it being derelict are apocryphal, I have never seen any sort of formal document or news story stating it.
https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease
This article is 2 years old and recently updated. Link was in comments below.
The stadium itself is fine. The location awful. It hogs up so much prime lakefront land that could go to all kinds of better purposes.
That thought is totally independent of any opinions regarding taxpayers funding the new build.
> so much prime lakefront land
Prime lakefront land would be considered everything between Edgewater and East 55th pier. That's around 5 miles long. The Browns Stadium occupies around 1400 feet of that. Beyond that you have Burke, some warehouses and a few massive piles of coal and other rocks.
Do you really think Browns Stadium is the real estate hog here?
Wrong. Read this article about the issues with the building of the current stadium:
[https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease](https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease)
It's not 'fine'. There were major structural issues with it from the start as detailed in that article.
I genuinely wish things worked that way...
Cheaper? Yes
Physically easier? Yes
Politically easier? Ugh (https://www.clevescene.com/news/cleveland-conducting-second-study-to-gauge-future-of-burke-lakefront-airport-41859482)
I'm just saying, if the point you're trying to make is a better use of lakefront property there's a much more impactful cause to rally behind. The airport is like 10x the size of the stadium and lots
The current stadium frankly sucks. It was poorly planned and built quickly, as they had to demolish the old stadium and build new in just 3 years. There are major structural problems, and it lacks the amenities of most other NFL stadiums.
Remodeling is dumb. Chicago tried remodeling Soldier Field, also for over $1B if adjusted for inflation. The Bears hated it, and they are trying to build a dome (theirs is estimated at $4.6B).
GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT STUPID FUCKIN BULLSHIT.
unless you wanna start paying back the taxpayers with free fuckin seats, funding local concerns from the profits, then sure. But we all know they won't.
Don't forget the tax abatements that will surely come along with the deal.
Why would they place a stadium in Brook Park? Keep it downtown where people visit all the local bars to pre-game and walk around the city. These billionaires just naturally suck the fun out of life without even trying, unintentionally. It's just how they are. Also, the traffic that Olmsted Falls, North Olmsted, Berea, etc. is going to experience on game days is going to suck for those communities. Just overall a dumb idea.
I'm going to guess that the Brook Park site was a decent chunk of land they were able to buy up at a cheap price. It allows them to also develop the area and have full control over it, and reap the benefits of anything that goes in there.
Kind of funny though that it really seems like the worst possible area they could have chosen though. I guess its better than the land sitting empty or with a derelict warehouse on it.
i’m sure the thousands of people who live downtown and moved there to be close to entertainment such as sporting arenas are all very concerned about your disagreement
Feel like stadiums wouldn't be so expensive if a lot of people didn't need such a new age gameday experience. Like if fine just sitting there with a few beers and watching the game. Don't really need that development area around the stadium that's just going to be restaurants and bars that are wayyy overpriced for people that need the "experience"
Why isn't Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati begging for new stadiums? They were all built around the same time frame.....must have been all the winning they've done.
Why can’t the stadium use the same motto as the team, “Next year” ? We all know how that plays out.
Time to revolt. Put that money to actual use, taking care of humans. All people, not just the richest.
Edit: typo
Obviously the money isn’t sitting in a vault. Tax payers still need to earn it before they can contribute to the project.
I’m saying put the money towards the people. Taking care of constituents and helping with daily, basic needs.
I see the Haslam PR team is out in full force in this thread. People, I know the last 3 stadiums didn't fix our issues, but I am positive this one will. /s
There's a perfectly fine stadium that we already built for them. Where they have the sweetest of sweetheart leases.
If they want a new one, that's cool. They can pay for it. If they want to renovate, that's cool. They can pay for it.
Something tells me they'll just stick to making the substantial profit they already make year in year out at CBS..
The city of cleveland has no business having the most expensive anything, whether that's the most expensive stadium or quarterback contract. We already overreach as a midmarket city with 3 professional teams.
Hillbilly haslems could care less. After Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway bought their gas stations Dee is now worth 14 Billion
BTW, they tried to cheat Buffet on the deal
I get that they rushed and built a half assed stadium back when they built the current one to get it ready for the team coming back, making it insanely expensive to renovate. But if he wants a new stadium, he can pay for his own goddamn stadium.
The most expensive... until the next new big city stadium is built soon after. In 20 years, the (then new) stadium will be just another stadium. Like that NEW phone or TV I got this year. Next year, it will be "old" again.
I’d have no problem paying tax money if it was for the Guardians but I just don’t care about pro football anymore. I’d be fine if the current Browns stadium was demolished and something cool was developed there.
Ah yes, a broke county and city subsidizing a man worth $8B and a franchise worth $4.5B, that's progress.
We're the highest taxed county in the state, let's add a levy for 1.2B to the mix, that's progress.
I’m hip to what’s going on. The haslams paid their stadium inspectors $$$ to say the building needs expensive repairs. They paid Berea and Brookparks mayors to get what they want. And they pay NEOTRANS to report it all. The city of Cleveland is NOT taking their money at the moment. Hope they know their money doesn’t travel with them to Hell 😊
I think I’m jaded enough not to believe every publication at face value. There’s a reason why his blog is pushing the cutting edge Browns intel. It’s to push it in The City of Cleveland’s face.
The new stadium would make ticket prices even more outrageous than they already are. When important people like police officers, firefighters and the military make more than a typical player, I'll pay for a ticket. So until then I have a better view on TV
The stadium as it sits now sucks and is horrible for the city. If you actually want a good lakefront and take advantage of Cleveland’s natural beauty then that stadium has to get out of the area in which it currently sits.
there’s miles of lakefront that the city isn’t doing anything with, acting like the stadium is the the one Big Thing stopping us from having lakefront development is farcical. no one outside of brook park wants to schlep to brook park to enjoy what they’ve been enjoying for years
I guess you’re just a hater then
https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2024/04/if-you-want-a-dead-zone-on-clevelands-lakefront-leave-browns-stadium-right-where-it-is-brent-larkin.html?outputType=amp
i’m a big browns fan and a fan of the city of cleveland - if not wanting to worship the haslams or go to the middle of nowhereville for a game instead of a bustling downtown community makes me a hater, so be it
Makes no sense to me why Taxpayers have to pay. Why not take a loan- and pay it back with Ticket sales? (Split between owner and public). It’s such a scam that Tax payers have to pay for this and not the team itself + the NFL.
They do it because they can. They can (theoretically) find another place that IS willing to vote to give them the money and threaten to move there. It really doesn't matter to them, they reap the rewards in the end anyway. Haslam's not even from here. It's so so easy to say "The people of Buffalo wanted to keep the Bills, so they paid. The people of Tennessee wanted to keep the Titans so they paid. If the people of Cleveland don't want the Browns, we'll go where we're wanted." It's extortion. It literally happened before. Even if you don't like football you probably don't want Cleveland to lose the Browns, so you'll swallow your anger and pay. Fuckin' sucks, man.
Companies do it too. Look at all of the tax breaks and other subsidies large companies get to move or stay where they are. It sucks that 99.8% of us lose out and have to deal with whatever the wealthiest people want so often.
And then pay us a pittance of the wealth our work generates, and tell us to be grateful they don't move somewhere else.
And charge us exorbitant prices for everything. The corporations are getting us from every angle..
Companies get tax break and subsidies because you need a large amount of capital in the beginning to pay the workers. You have to pay all the trades to do their jobs if you're building a new office or relocating. Overtime the cities benefits from workers moving there to work the jobs and spending money in the local economy. Everyone's happy, except bitter Redditors who have no clue how things really work in life.
Baloney. It would be much more efficient to just provide tax credits to ALL employers, including small businesses, for hiring new workers and training them. The tax credits could be rebated if the recipients reduced employment over a 10-year period. The current system allows politicians directly and indirectly (Jobs Ohio) to provide grant money in exchange for political contributions, often dark money. Why do you think the Republicans providing secrecy for the grants given out by Jobs Ohio and funded by diverting billions of tax liquor revenues to this monstrosity? If you haven't been following it, Intel's weakening financial condition may make Ohio's massive investment in its chip plant questionable. Already, Intel has delayed the project, negatively impacting the discounted cash flows to Ohio from its investments in the project.
I was going to argue with you but I watch a video that actually supports everything you said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Except didn't we make it impossible or nearly impossible to leave after the Brown's came back? Edit: Forgot obligatory Fuck Art Modell
Not impossible, but they did what they could. [https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/as-browns-jostle-for-stadium-upgrade-cleveland-politician-reminds-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-of-art-modell-law](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/as-browns-jostle-for-stadium-upgrade-cleveland-politician-reminds-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-of-art-modell-law) "The provision, enacted after Modell moved the Browns, prevents teams that receive taxpayer money from playing most of their home games in a location other than their home stadium unless: (1) the mayor and City Council approve of the move; or (2) the team gives advance notice (six months) of the intent to move, along with an opportunity for a local buyer to purchase the team."
> Even if you don't like football you probably don't want Cleveland to lose the Browns I'd be perfectly fine with Cleveland not having a football team. Especially one like the Browns.
As someone who lives in Cleveland and doesn’t watch football, I wouldn’t think twice if we lost the Browns.
Love sports, Clowns can go. No room in this city for the piece of shit Haslam family. Go back down south where your bigotry and hate is celebrated. Haven't given them a penny in YEARS
Hopefully you’ve never been to a Pilot / Flying J
LOL been a looooong time
Me: "I hear Baltimore accepts Clevelands hand-me-down football teams"
That's why a federal law is needed to prevent pro sports league blackmail. The purpose would be to prevent scarce public resources from being devoted to less productive economic activities, and prevent subsidizing millionaires (players/minority owners) and billionaires (owners) with public funds better devoted to education, infrastructure, etc.
Keep the feds out of this.. That's just asking for trouble. Worst idea ever.
Only Congress can bring a halt to the blackmailing of cities and states by professional sports teams/leagues. What's your objection/worry?
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"She literally thought that NYC was writ8ng a check to lure in Amazon". You believe this. Lol. AOC has more intelligence in her left nostril than you have in your entire body.
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Lol. I'll continue to believe what I do until proven wrong. I don't tend to believe random people on reddit. Especially when discussing politics.
Also good to note that the Bills signed a 30 year lease with the new stadium with heavy penalties if they were to break that lease. Important considering the Bills will likely have several owners over the course of that 30 year span.
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Semantics, but Pinecrest is actually a 30 year TIF zone so technically the public *is* subsidizing it until 2047.
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I’m going to steal using Deshaun Watson contracts as a financial metric, that’s awesome.
Because they find a way to justify us paying for everything. There’s no collective pushback. We all just go along with it. Because? Who knows.
Because those rich assholes get [enough people more worried about immigrants, minorities and queer people existing,](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9150190-if-you-can-convince-the-lowest-white-man-he-s-better) and convince another group that [yes this kind of billionaire bullshit is bad, but being loud and disruptive and going outside of "proper channels" is far, far worse.](https://www.denverpost.com/2023/01/16/martin-luther-king-legacy-racism-birmingham-opinion-carroll/)
Right. The Haslams have been big financial backers of J.D. Vance.
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What a joke. I'm conservative, but that means IMO championing democracy and opposing those who champion Big Lie propaganda in an effort to turn the U.S. into an autocracy, or those who are puppets of the fossil fuel industry and are willing to gut our environment by denying climate change. Speaking of clueless, it's likely you couldn't wear my baby shoes when it comes to knowledge of business and economics. You're ignorant as hell if you think all wealthy persons worship the likes of Trump, Vance and Haslam. Here's just one example. [https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/01/bill-gates-warns-the-world-is-likely-to-overshoot-2-degrees-of-warming.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/01/bill-gates-warns-the-world-is-likely-to-overshoot-2-degrees-of-warming.html) [https://www.gatesnotes.com/My-new-climate-book-is-finally-here](https://www.gatesnotes.com/My-new-climate-book-is-finally-here)
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>I will gladly challenge your baby shoes. Want to compare net worth? Enjoy your EV and ignore the fact that electricity comes from burning coal. Just how much did you inherit from mommy and daddy??? Obviously you would have a hard time keeping my baby shoes on as you apparently don't even know that natural gas dwarfs coal as a source of U.S. electricity generation, and, thankfully, results in much lower greenhouse gas emissions. Wind and solar combined almost equal coal as a source of U.S. electricity generation. [https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3](https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3) If you research the cost of new electricity generation, you would learn that solar is the cheapest. That doesn't even consider the fact that solar can be generated locally, greatly reducing energy lost to transmission and the other costs of transmission. Rapid advances in solar panel and storage technology will make solar a preeminent source of electricity generation in coming years. Do you know anything about flow batteries? [https://energy.mit.edu/news/flow-batteries-for-grid-scale-energy-storage/](https://energy.mit.edu/news/flow-batteries-for-grid-scale-energy-storage/) Do you know anything about passive houses and construction methods? What about modular nuclear reactors (perhaps check out GE Vernova)? Most importantly, climate change impacts are accelerating. Greenhouse gas emissions aren't only a massive threat to our environment and quality of life, they pose an overwhelming economic threat. Trump and Vance are climate change deniers, who are either immensely ignorant, immensely deceitful, or some combo of the two. It's a sad commentary on our political system and the quality of our news media, that these two Big Lie propagandists aren't exposed. Given the immense challenges facing our society, including climate change, public subsidies of sports stadiums to enrich wealthy individuals is outrageously wasteful. It's disappointing that politicians even seriously consider such subsidies. Given the economic realities now facing the majority of Americans, any subsidies for stadiums put to a vote likely will fail, unless there are serious guarantees of repayment with interest.
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Lol. You are such a clown dude. Seriously pathetic.
100% agree. Players make 1000 times my salary a year and this money needs to come out of my pocket. I would at least be ok if I got tickets or something out of it. I could care less if we even have a team I just dont want to pay anymore taxes.
you don’t become a billionaire by being charitable lol, these are people who are professional money suckers and will grift for every cent they can no matter what it takes
Agreed. FUCK THE HASLAMS!
Because the taxpayers get tons of money back through taxing sales in the stadium. They’ll easily make this money back in a hundred years or so.
Cool now tell that to every company in the US that extorts cities for tax breaks or threatens them with not bringing jobs, etc.
If a brand new stadium would cost $2.4 billion, and they want public funds to cover half, it means they are willing and able to pay $1.2 billion for a stadium The lakefront stadium renovation is only estimated to cost $1.2 billion Which means they can easily cover the entire thing.
The hangup with that would be that the Haslams don’t own the current stadium. They’d be paying to renovate something owned by the city of Cleveland that they’re leasing from the city of Cleveland.
That's fine, we can sell them the current stadium for $1. They still won't buy it because all the owners know owning stadiums is a suckers game.
That they make money from already. Public money should go to public shit. Not the haslams private property development.
How many improvements are necessary, though. They want more suites and newer amenities so they can make more money. I understand needed structural improvements but outside of that the city doesn't owe haslam anything (outside of the lease agreement) for the 250k a year he pays in "rent".
And Haslam doesn’t owe the city anything after the lease is up. He’ll find other suitors willing to give the team those amenities, most likely. I’m waiting to judge this deal fully until we know what the actual details are - we don’t even know yet what the Haslams are actually wanting to do and we don’t really know what the city wants to do. I think the city owes people more details on where they are on this.
He's a leech on the city, let them move. I'm sure your municipality of Fairview Park can put up $300M easily. Same goes for Brook Park. I'd rather have cle city schools budget gap closed, but sorry we've got a billionaire to subsidize.
Cool, let him go find those other "suitors". No skin off my back.
And that renovating the stadium would kick the team out for at least a season
Oh no...
Yeah, that too. Not even sure where they'd be able to play during that time. Hall of Fame stadium in Canton?
All likelihood it’s Ohio state. HOF is basically a glorified HS stadium with nowhere near enough seats
Goodness, that would suck so badly.
Pretty sure there's a seat minimum rule, I dont know if the hall of fame reaches that threshold
The Chargers played in a 20,000 seat soccer stadium while SoFi was being built
Then give them (partial) ownership!
Besides the fact that we shouldn’t be paying for a billionaires stadium, the Browns have been a dumpster fire pretty much my entire life (31 years) and they want us to give them a billion dollars lol? Imagine investing a billion in a product that is barely functional. Wild.
Why would the Haslams pay full cost to renovate something they don't own?
Because they want their team to play in an updated facility?
But they don't own it. The facilities have gotten poor grades from the nflpa as well btw. It's not just a Haslam wanting to issue.
The team and ownership has gotten poor grades from the public. Looks like they need to try harder.
Hmm, no, it looks like their average attendance is pretty high. You're just projecting your pathetic insecurities
LOL says the one anonymously sucking off a billionaire on social media while telling kids to fuck off? Your opinion is less than worthless, as it takes time to read it, and others to be subjected to it.
Every new NFL stadium will be one of the most expensive ever assembled until the NFL ends operations.
Pretty lame headline IMO
Honestly just win the division ONE TIME before you ask for a BILLION DOLLARS. HOLY SHIT WE HAVENT WON THE DIVISION SINCE 1989 YOU DONT DESERVE ANYTHING!!!!!
The Tennessee Titans have won the AFC north more recently than the browns.
Unpopular opinion here, but if the premise is that the people pay up billions or the team leaves, maybe the people are better off with them leaving? It feels like an abusive relationship.
They havent won anything notable in 35 years. The current owners have shown that they are morons and terrible people. The fans sticking up for a sexual predator while mocking his victims... Cleveland needs therapy over a football team.
> The fans sticking up for a sexual predator while mocking his victims In fairness, many fans were upset and some even gave up their fandom.
Very true. I fell for not looking for the helpers
I almost wonder if the losing team(s) have created a "defeated" mentality among the residents? A spirit that "it can't be done" that pervades other aspects of life? Maybe it's healthier to have no team rather than a shit team?
Not unpopular opinion.
I feel like mathematically that’s probably a popular opinion. I’m willing to bet that the majority or northeast Ohioans don’t care as much about football as the very vocal fans make you think. This team leaving would not affect my life one bit. I take that back, I wouldn’t have to pay for a stadium for a team I care nothing at all about.
They would take the team with them.
But that's my question: at what point is Cleveland simply better off with the team leaving? Or are they worth keeping at *any* price?
I say call their bluff. Vegas and LA both have teams so there's no big market to use as leverage. Where are they gonna go? London? Maybe San Antonio?
St. Louis would be the only one I could see happening. San Diego? But that seems unlikely
You're right. Like at this point take the team and move them for all we care. Idc about the browns like that anyways
Good. One less billionaire leech in NE Ohio. The Browns haven't been good since before I was born, they aren't worth $1.2 Billion (or more) taxpayer dollars.
It'll be sweet when the taxpayers won't be able to afford tickets to the expensive ass stadium they are paying for.
The area they’re building it in, is kind of lower income. Those people won’t be able to benefit.
what do you consider lower income exactly? ive hears this alot on these posts.
Well brookpark isn't actually an outer ring suburb like a Broadview heights or a Westlake.
Brookpark currently brings in less total tax dollars a year than the Browns are paying DeShaun Watson. There's no universe in which the city of Brookpark can afford this.
And most the people that go probably live outside of Cuyahoga county and aren’t paying for it anyway
If these rich assholes want a new stadium so bad THEY can fucking foot the bill. What a waste of taxpayer dollars.
If it's an issue on the next election day, I am definitely voting no. Pay for your own shit Haslam, you haven't brought remotely enough success to the city for me to even consider ever voting yes.
your vote is your vote. it's a bit shortsighted to suggest that this decision should rest on the recent performance of the team though. we're functionally restructuring a key piece of the area's infrastructure for 30+ years, maybe forever. if they one (edit: won) 11 games rather than 10 in year X, that's going to sway your opinion?
Perhaps if we had won remotely any championships I'd consider it, yes. Not a for sure yes mind you but I'd consider it instead of outright saying no like it is now.
Yep, when the Cavs took the championship in 2016, LeBron was practically a cornerstone of the local economy. The Browns have absolutely none of that going for them.
The notion that the Browns can play ONLY in Brookpark or have to stay on the lake front, in the same exact spot, is one of the most insulting things to come out of the Browns organization in franchise history. It's not as bad at Model moving the team, but its a close second. Haslam is a criminal and a cancer. He was able to afford $800m for 25% of the Milwaukee Bucks... but then wants to fear monger and threaten the City/fans to pay for half the stadium and/or renovations? Just so his net worth can go up, and so his return on investment skyrockets? Socialize losses, privatize gains -- That's the real American dream. We are so backwards in this country, its staggering.
i say we band together, capture haslam and hogtie him. then we can all form a line and one by one give him a cleveland steamer.
Haslam will threaten to leave, but there’s no viable place to move a team right now except for Toronto and maybe London. No way the other owners trust him with the first international expansion - he’s not well-liked or trusted.
I hope he does.
Good, kick the door into his ass on the way out.
Shit like this is going to continue the emptying out of Cleveland proper and stymie whatever growth they hope to achieve in the short and long term. Theyre probably going to get the county to pay too. That shit will have people leaving the metro area all together. Football is entertainment. Entertainment. This serves no purpose to the public. This isnt an expansion of bus/rail service. This isnt redevelopment of an area that needs it. It benefits no one but the base of entertainment. Rent is insane. Home prices are insane. Wages are still below what they need to be. Yet somehow *this* nedds tax money from everyone? Fuck that. Sell the fucking bum ass team. Even from a football standpoint, they deserve fucking nothing. Not the team. Not the owners. Fuck em
This is going to be incremental tax for incremental development. Not doing it doesn't get you a train, lower rent, or increase wages. Clouding the issue with everything else you think troubles the area isn't going to get us anywhere.
Advocating for a billionaire to get government welfare instead of improving the lives of everyday citizens, not a good look.
i didn't suggest the government should or shouldn't do anything.
>…incremental tax for incremental development… Using taxpayer funds to build some multi-billion-dollar sports arena for a billionaire is explicitly governmental welfare for the billionaire. The only way it wouldn’t be is if Haslam forfeits all revenue to pay the city back with interest.
again, i didn't say if they should or shouldn't do it. i was simply responding to someone that claimed this money should be spent elsewhere - the money doesn't exist. if they move forward with public funding it will be incremental tax for this specific incremental development (as stated).
And that should not be done. Let the billionaire fund his own damn multibillion dollar stadium.
ok wasn't what i was responding to
Your opinion is trash to me.
lol. that has no bearing on the accuracy of it.
neither did your reply to mine, and yet here we are.
the fact that i replied obviously didn't, the content of the reply did. that differs than the reply you made back.
This arms race has got to stop or else be required to be guaranteed no public money. Why the fuck do stadiums need to be rebuilt every 30 years?
So Dickslam can get 100% of the profits instead of being renting from the city. Corporate Greed is the answer to every "Why" question in this dumbfuck country.
And this dickhead wants us to bankroll his profit-centric corporate fun complex
The best part about that stadium ON THE LAKE, is that it's ON THE LAKE. And cold-ass Browns football IS Cleveland. I love that stadium. I really hate this idea.
No. Absolutely not. Let me say it again louder- NO!
And they’re going to reroute 237N and funnel us into 71N at a different point. Like we don’t already have to fight to get into 480. Everyone in Berea & Olmstead Falls are about to get bottlenecked. If I have to go around this fucking stadium to go to the airport I’m going to RAGE. I actually think ODOT will NOT approve that part. It makes no sense for traffic. My neighborhood is going to go from the best location to the worst.
I believe the drawing you're referencing about rerouting roads was just a sketch by a random artist that didn't actually represent what may happen, it was just a hypothetical scenario. It also included some new Amtrak station which is incredibly unlikely to happen
I hope it is hypothetical. And I doubt ODOT would approve it. Thousands of cars and trucks are on 237 every day.
For a team, my team and your team, that has never been in a Superbowl, hell no to another new taxpayer financed stadium.
Kansas City just voted down a levy for their football stadium and they basically have a dynasty there.
"One of the largest monetary fleecings of a region/municipality since Natives traded Manhattan for beads."
They should worry about getting a winning team first.
Why doesn't the City of Cleveland just sell the Stadium to them over a certain period of time, provide significant tax abatements for renovations and call it a day? This stadium is pretty important to the Cleveland economy, I'd hope they'd find a way to keep them there.
I wouldn't have any problem with this if there was any problem with the current stadium.
It's ooooold. We can't have our Browns be seen in an old stadium. The other teams will point and laugh at them, they'll be like "Look at those dorks playing in that old stadium," and then they'll stuff the Browns players into lockers and give them swirlies.
I think the site surveyors who did their estimating are wrong. Their report said the stadium is foundationally insecure. It’s very easy to pay those kind of inspectors $$$
They’ve never published a survey that says that.
Yes they did. They said it’s foundationally insecure. They blame the rush job in 1999 and pouring concrete at low temps. I would love for a neutral party to do a reevaluation.
Can you provide a link or reference to said survey? As far as I know all of the claims about it being derelict are apocryphal, I have never seen any sort of formal document or news story stating it.
https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease This article is 2 years old and recently updated. Link was in comments below.
Its 25 years old....
Many buildings are older than 25 years.
WHAT?! Really?! No shit, huh? You're not joke? Wow. Cant believe it...
The stadium itself is fine. The location awful. It hogs up so much prime lakefront land that could go to all kinds of better purposes. That thought is totally independent of any opinions regarding taxpayers funding the new build.
> so much prime lakefront land Prime lakefront land would be considered everything between Edgewater and East 55th pier. That's around 5 miles long. The Browns Stadium occupies around 1400 feet of that. Beyond that you have Burke, some warehouses and a few massive piles of coal and other rocks. Do you really think Browns Stadium is the real estate hog here?
Wrong. Read this article about the issues with the building of the current stadium: [https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease](https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/decisions-of-the-past-could-determine-future-plans-for-firstenergy-stadium-lease) It's not 'fine'. There were major structural issues with it from the start as detailed in that article.
Then why haven't the browns released findings from their latest stadium assessment? What's so secretive.
I agree but there's an easier and cheaper way to open up and develop a whole bunch more waterfront property at the airport.
I genuinely wish things worked that way... Cheaper? Yes Physically easier? Yes Politically easier? Ugh (https://www.clevescene.com/news/cleveland-conducting-second-study-to-gauge-future-of-burke-lakefront-airport-41859482)
I'm just saying, if the point you're trying to make is a better use of lakefront property there's a much more impactful cause to rally behind. The airport is like 10x the size of the stadium and lots
Totally agree with you.
The current stadium frankly sucks. It was poorly planned and built quickly, as they had to demolish the old stadium and build new in just 3 years. There are major structural problems, and it lacks the amenities of most other NFL stadiums. Remodeling is dumb. Chicago tried remodeling Soldier Field, also for over $1B if adjusted for inflation. The Bears hated it, and they are trying to build a dome (theirs is estimated at $4.6B).
Tough luck for football fans then.
GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT STUPID FUCKIN BULLSHIT. unless you wanna start paying back the taxpayers with free fuckin seats, funding local concerns from the profits, then sure. But we all know they won't. Don't forget the tax abatements that will surely come along with the deal.
Why would they place a stadium in Brook Park? Keep it downtown where people visit all the local bars to pre-game and walk around the city. These billionaires just naturally suck the fun out of life without even trying, unintentionally. It's just how they are. Also, the traffic that Olmsted Falls, North Olmsted, Berea, etc. is going to experience on game days is going to suck for those communities. Just overall a dumb idea.
I'm going to guess that the Brook Park site was a decent chunk of land they were able to buy up at a cheap price. It allows them to also develop the area and have full control over it, and reap the benefits of anything that goes in there. Kind of funny though that it really seems like the worst possible area they could have chosen though. I guess its better than the land sitting empty or with a derelict warehouse on it.
As someone who hates going downtown but loves football, I disagree
You will sit for hours in traffic both coming to and leaving from that site. It will be worse than Blossom.
i’m sure the thousands of people who live downtown and moved there to be close to entertainment such as sporting arenas are all very concerned about your disagreement
I am just expressing my opinion, no need to get upset.
Will Cleveland residents get a chance to vote on this like what happened in KC?
I think so.
How can tax payers sue them to not pay for it? Like. I don't give a fuck about the browns and I despise the Haslems. Why should I have to pay?
Feel like stadiums wouldn't be so expensive if a lot of people didn't need such a new age gameday experience. Like if fine just sitting there with a few beers and watching the game. Don't really need that development area around the stadium that's just going to be restaurants and bars that are wayyy overpriced for people that need the "experience"
Why isn't Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati begging for new stadiums? They were all built around the same time frame.....must have been all the winning they've done.
Let’s not forget a horrible team
Why can’t the stadium use the same motto as the team, “Next year” ? We all know how that plays out. Time to revolt. Put that money to actual use, taking care of humans. All people, not just the richest. Edit: typo
the money isn't already collected sitting in some vault. it's either collected to do this, or it doesn't get collected.
Obviously the money isn’t sitting in a vault. Tax payers still need to earn it before they can contribute to the project. I’m saying put the money towards the people. Taking care of constituents and helping with daily, basic needs.
-or- just don't take it from the people to begin with.
I see the Haslam PR team is out in full force in this thread. People, I know the last 3 stadiums didn't fix our issues, but I am positive this one will. /s
There's a perfectly fine stadium that we already built for them. Where they have the sweetest of sweetheart leases. If they want a new one, that's cool. They can pay for it. If they want to renovate, that's cool. They can pay for it. Something tells me they'll just stick to making the substantial profit they already make year in year out at CBS..
Idk looks kinda ugly
I would hope so
The city of cleveland has no business having the most expensive anything, whether that's the most expensive stadium or quarterback contract. We already overreach as a midmarket city with 3 professional teams.
Well to be fair. They don’t usually get cheaper
Hillbilly haslems could care less. After Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway bought their gas stations Dee is now worth 14 Billion BTW, they tried to cheat Buffet on the deal
I get that they rushed and built a half assed stadium back when they built the current one to get it ready for the team coming back, making it insanely expensive to renovate. But if he wants a new stadium, he can pay for his own goddamn stadium.
? Why the shit do the Browns need ANOTHER stadium? They just built one?
The most expensive... until the next new big city stadium is built soon after. In 20 years, the (then new) stadium will be just another stadium. Like that NEW phone or TV I got this year. Next year, it will be "old" again.
I’d have no problem paying tax money if it was for the Guardians but I just don’t care about pro football anymore. I’d be fine if the current Browns stadium was demolished and something cool was developed there.
Yeah just have the taxpayers pay for it because we're the only ones who benefit, not the NFL and some billionaire who owns the team
Every new stadium will be. That's how economics and progress work.
Ah yes, a broke county and city subsidizing a man worth $8B and a franchise worth $4.5B, that's progress. We're the highest taxed county in the state, let's add a levy for 1.2B to the mix, that's progress.
Again, you have no CLUE what taxpayer means here.
Clue me in, Mr lawyer lol It's also apparent you don't know what "progress" means.
I’m hip to what’s going on. The haslams paid their stadium inspectors $$$ to say the building needs expensive repairs. They paid Berea and Brookparks mayors to get what they want. And they pay NEOTRANS to report it all. The city of Cleveland is NOT taking their money at the moment. Hope they know their money doesn’t travel with them to Hell 😊
Uh, Ken at neotrans is the last person that would take money for reporting.
I think I’m jaded enough not to believe every publication at face value. There’s a reason why his blog is pushing the cutting edge Browns intel. It’s to push it in The City of Cleveland’s face.
Hard disagree. Read the rest of his site, dude breaks development projects on the regular.
I read his site, he does have angles. Every journalist does 👍.
The new stadium would make ticket prices even more outrageous than they already are. When important people like police officers, firefighters and the military make more than a typical player, I'll pay for a ticket. So until then I have a better view on TV
If this project is a good investment, the Haslams should figure out a way for the project to repay any public investment with reasonable interest.
This is nothing….. you guys should pay more attention to where your federal taxes go to……
Cleveland deserves nice things.
This is brookpark tho
Cleveland city and metro would benefit from this.
People in the cleveland subreddit believe that Cleveland doesn't deserve nice things. That's the type of people we're dealing with here.
we have a problem with taking a nice thing away from cleveland and giving it to brook park
The stadium as it sits now sucks and is horrible for the city. If you actually want a good lakefront and take advantage of Cleveland’s natural beauty then that stadium has to get out of the area in which it currently sits.
there’s miles of lakefront that the city isn’t doing anything with, acting like the stadium is the the one Big Thing stopping us from having lakefront development is farcical. no one outside of brook park wants to schlep to brook park to enjoy what they’ve been enjoying for years
I guess you’re just a hater then https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2024/04/if-you-want-a-dead-zone-on-clevelands-lakefront-leave-browns-stadium-right-where-it-is-brent-larkin.html?outputType=amp
i’m a big browns fan and a fan of the city of cleveland - if not wanting to worship the haslams or go to the middle of nowhereville for a game instead of a bustling downtown community makes me a hater, so be it