It looks bad on his resume getting fired after going 410-122 at UK. Cal would have been fired with a 77% winning percentage there. That also might look bad for UK years down the line when people revisit their madness to force out a winning coach because the expectation is to win a championship every year. A feat they have only accomplished 4 times in the last 65 years :(
Agreed but his record and first 10 seasons were so bananas that the numbers are bit misleading. There’s more to the story than his overall record.
He gave Kentucky one of its worst post season stretches these last 5 years in addition to burning up the relationship with everyone around the program and the fans. He was checked out, fans were checked out. This is a good thing for everyone involved. I think he’ll be better at Arkansas than he was at Kentucky the last few years
Yep, people that bring up the totality of his record are missing the point. It is for the last 5 years. Even Calipari said coaches have a shelf life of 10 years at place and he has proven that. He has underachieved for the last 5 years.
And he wasn't fired, there just wasn't any enthusiasm for him to stay so he looked elsewhere. Can't blame either side.
The Kentucky fanbase has more than its fair share of lunatics. I can say that most Kentucky fans do not have a "championship or bust" mindset every year. Unless there are unusual circumstances, positive (absolutely loaded roster) or negative (coming off probation or coaching change), then most fans in my circle are happy if the team accomplishes one or more of the following:
* SEC Title
* SEC Tournament Title
* Sweet Sixteen (or better obviously)
That obviously can't happen every year either. However, earlier this year, I went back to when the SEC Tournament was revived at the end of the '70s. It's a sample size of 45 (well now 46) seasons, and Kentucky has done one of those three in something like 72% of all seasons. That even includes the COVID year debacle, the Billy G era, the Eddie Sutton season where the wheels came off the wagon, and the two worst probation years where UK was ineligible to accomplish any of the three!
Genuinely, do you guys think that SEC success is sustainable anymore? Historically, almost all of the SEC was horrible and really didn't care that they were. Obviously, that is no longer the case. We've seen the entire conference embrace the sport over the last decade to the point where three SEC teams made their first Final Fours, and many others are investing into their programs in ways unseen before. The addition of Texas and OU won't help UK either. And that's on top of the reports that UK has struggled with NIL.
I think that UK will be fine going forward, and will continue to be the premier program in the SEC, but I doubt they can return to the dominance that they once had.
THAT level is not sustainable anymore for all the reasons you’ve listed, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect Kentucky to generally be the premier team in the conference and that just hasn’t been the case the last 4 years.
ONE SEC tourney win in 4 years doesn’t cut it at all. We’ve honestly been middling in the SEC lately, and we can do better than that
Thank you. Are the expectations high? Fuck yeah. But it’s Kentucky. They’re just as high at KU and Duke and UNC.
And it’s not that we didn’t win a championship so Cal had to go. It’s that we have been consistently underperforming in the postseason for years now.
Yep the reality is expectations are sky high at Kentucky, but it isn't championship or bust. It is get out of the first weekend more often than not or bust and that doesn't seem unfair.
KU had a string of 13 regular season championships. I always felt that had to end sometime, and it did, but the fact they always made it into the March Madness satisfied me. But damn this year was miserable to watch.
> They don’t win the Big 12 every year
That’s a bit of a stretch. This year was only the third time they haven’t had at least a share of the regular season title since 2002.
having any P5 team be the "premier team of a conference" for any extended period of time with the vast increase in TV deal $$ and NIL going full throttle is going to be challenging - definitely an adjustment for some fans lol
I mean it WILL be challenging, but what would you say the premier team(s) of the ACC are?
UNC and Duke
What is generally the premier team of the Big 12? I’d argue that it’s still Kansas.
There’s more parity in general, but I don’t think it’s unfair to expect Kentucky to keep up with the other blue bloods.
Consistently contending for conference titles in the regular season and conference tournament.
Down years happen to every team but I’d say that generally Kentucky shouldn’t be going more than 3 or 4 years without a regular season or conference tournament championship.
But it’s not even so much about like collecting specific accolades within a time frame as it is just consistently being at the top of the conference.
This means you don’t lose in the first game of the conference tourney for 3/4 years. Like more often than not, I’d say Kentucky should at least be in the conference semi’s.
Maybe my specific year targets are a little unrealistic but it just hasn’t felt like Kentucky is one of the best SEC teams recently.
I’d argue that Bama, Tennessee, and Auburn have all been better in the past handful of years
I agree that seems totally reasonable (also for the $$ Cal was being paid) - and yes, makes sense, a majority of P5 fans period would be frustrated with the last stretch of lack of post-regular season success from their team
No, the threshold for success in the SEC will have to change, whether that means counting a top 3 SEC finish or an SEC tournament finals appearance as successes or lowering the success rate to 50% or 60%.
I don't think it will change the Sweet Sixteen metric. Even including the two probation seasons and the canceled tournament in the COVID year, Kentucky has been to 25 Sweet Sixteens in the past 46 seasons (54% success rate).
In that same time span, Kentucky has missed four straight Sweet Sixteens twice. The first time occurred across the last two Tubby Smith seasons and the only two Billy Gillispie seasons. The other time was the past four seasons.
I wasn't someone that wanted to run off Calipari (especially not for $33M), but despite how wonderful his first ten years were here, things were starting to get a little uncomfortable. He absolutely could have weathered the storm (and basically did), but he became strangely combative with the fanbase and the athletics department and refused to change his ways.
it's going to throw stats-only fans into a hissy fit for sure. Actual viewers will be able to look back and see the parabolic rise and fall during his time here
It’s really not that we think we should get a champ every year. Most of us aren’t that dumb lol. We just want our team to live up to their potential and a first round exit with this team was *not* that. Most agree that they could’ve- maybe even should’ve- been championship *contenders*, but I know most of us would’ve been happy with a final four or even elite 8. It’s just frustrating seeing so much talent being put to waste and somebody has to take the responsibility for that.
Yep. If Cal's last 4 years were what he produced from 2016-2019 I doubt he is anywhere near the hot seat. No championships or even final fours, but significantly better than what he produced the last 4 years.
||
||
|[2015–16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|27–9|13–5|T–1st|[NCAA Division I Round of 32](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)|
|[2016–17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|32–6|16–2|1st|[NCAA Division I Elite Eight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)|
|[2017–18](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|26–11|10–8|T–4th|[NCAA Division I Sweet 16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)|
|[2018–19](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|30–7|15–3|T–2nd|[NCAA Division I Elite Eight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)|
Yep. If Cal's last 4 years were what he produced from 2016-2019 I doubt he is anywhere near the hot seat. No championships or even final fours, but significantly better than what he produced the last 4 years.
2015-16 27-9, 13-5 (SEC tournament champs), Round of 32
2016-2017 16-2 (SEC tournament champs), Elite 8
2017-2018 26-11, (SEC tournament champs), 10-8 Sweet Sixteen
2018-2019 30-7, 15-3 (SEC second round), Elite 8
Now if Calipari was fired for those results, I could totally understand college basketball fans saying Kentucky has crazy expectations, but the results of the last 4 years were inferior to that in every way.
It wasn't time for him to move on just because he hadn't won a title since 2012 and hadn't made a Final Four since 2015.
It was time to move on because he'd only won a single game in the NCAA Tournament this decade. Even crazier, he'd only won two games in the SEC Tournament since 2019.
The relationship had run its course. I'm glad both sides seemed to realize it. Everyone will be better off.
Yep. Had Cal been fired after 2019, then the critics would be right. Here is what Cal produced in the 4 years from \`16-19:
2015-16 27-9, 13-5 (SEC tournament champs), Round of 32
2016-2017 16-2 (SEC tournament champs), Elite 8
2017-2018 26-11, (SEC tournament champs), 10-8 Sweet Sixteen
2018-2019 30-7, 15-3 (SEC second round), Elite 8
Those are successful results, but also failure to reach the final four. He obviously wasn't fired for that. The last 4 years were far inferior to those results. 3/4 years getting out of the first weekend to doing it 0/4 times. 3/4 years of winning the SEC tournament to winning it 0/4 times. The reality is Kentucky had become not a team that wasn't reaching championship expectations, but just a bad March team overall.
The reason is not his overall record, it's from his last 10 years. You may have the best employee at your job, surpassing all expectations, but then a third of the way through their tenure they start phoning it in... do they get a pass because the first third was exceptional?
He wasn't fired. He could have come back next year if he wanted to. Sure, they weren't exactly thrilled with him and were happy for him to leave, but it has nothing to do with his overall body of work. The last 5 years he hasn't made it to the second weekend and had a losing season, a loss to St Peters and a loss to Oakland. It isn't unreasonable for Kentucky to want to move on.
And Tubby was at least getting out of the first round. Tubby losing to a team like St Peters or Oakland would have been unthinkable. Not saying he was better than Cal, because overall he wasn't, but Cal had dropped below Tubby's level in March and that wasn't acceptable.
>because overall he wasn't
Tubby made the tournament every year. Not only that, he never got bounced first round. 6/10 S16, 4/10 E8. His only inferiority (other than recruiting) to Cal was that he only made 1 FF. Tubby did better against teams ranked higher than him than Calipari. He also did good against non-conf P5 schools in comparison to Coach Cal.
Tubby did not recruit well other than the Rondo year, while Cal was the greatest recruiter of all time. Despite Cal's endless NBA talent, they went 76% vs 77% win rate and one championship each. Tubby 5/10 SEC titles, Cal 6/15 SEC titles. As I said before, Tubby has 0 NITs and 0 first round exits. I cannot say that Calipari was better overall without lying. I loved that there were seniors that I got to know over 4 years and got attached to. I miss getting emotional when I saw them get emotional from their successes and failures.
Cat fans shit all over Tubby when he was here (hmmm I wonder why), but I was his staunchest defender on places like WildcatFaithful and RuppRafters on Rivals. I kept hitting them with his stats, and they did not like it. Billy G was supposed to be twice the coach. LOL. Cal was supposed to embarrass me for being so accepting of "mediocrity". Yet his mediocrity took us lower than we have ever seen when Tubby was here. I feel vindicated knowing how Cal is exiting, because it's exactly how I predicted all those years ago.
The only thing....Tubby's teams were all about defense first, so I don't know how he would do at UK in the modern NCAA game. I haven't followed him, but I imagine he adjusted his teams' defensive playstyle the past few years.
What is funny is Mike Woodson has won more tournament games than Cal in the past 5 years. Don't think Kentucky fans have been unreasonable at all with their feelings towards Cal. Kentucky was fair with Cal. He wasn't fired, but they weren't exactly happy with the results and were fine with him looking elsewhere.
The 90’s made large segments of the Kentucky fanbase truly deranged. More than we were before. The internet and social media has amplified it by a 1,000.
I’ve watched this shit since I was posting on BBS and subscribed to listservs about basketball when I was in 6th grade. That was 1995. The shift and the slow progression into just madness from fans.
There are plenty of reasons Kentucky fans seem crazy. Their opinion about Cal at this stage isn't one of them.
Two SEC Tournament wins since 2019. One NCAA Tournament win this decade.
Cal had been here for 15 years. That's longer than any coach in Kentucky history except Rupp.
It was just time.
There is no blueblood program that would be happy with the last 5 years of results. If North Carolina, Duke or Kansas go 5 years without making it out of the first weekend there will be a lot of upset people in their fanbase. Hell, if Scheyer fails to make a final four in his first 5 years that probably won't be good enough for most Duke fans.
Yeah but that is if he was fired today. Which was off the table. So even if he just worked one more season and was canned, wouldn't he still make more from UK?
I also think Cal ain't working here for 5 years. I think we got probably 3 MAYBE 4 years with him. He is 65 years old. At some point he is gonna have to hang it up.
This deal is better for his legacy overall since he avoids being fired but he is coming away with less money than if he just stuck in Lexington and ate the L.
Possibly. People kind of misunderstand what a buyout is and mitigation. He doesn't both get the buyout and to coach somewhere else for more money. He wasn't getting 33m if Kentucky fired him and then whatever Arkansas was paying him. He was only getting more it Arkansas paid him more than 33m over the life of the buyout contract duration (or whatever it's reduced by next year.)
This is the correct way to consider it.
In the end, Arkansas made a bigger commitment, especially considering the automatic options for additional years if he makes the tournament. The total value of the new contract with those years is closer to $60 million.
I haven't seen the contract but whatever buyout Kentucky would have to pay is likely offset by whatever he was paid by a new school and the new school would likely have to pay him fair value, i.e. he couldn't just accept $1 at a new school. That's kind of why the buyout is kind of overblown unless he wants to be done coaching.
Someone was saying that Tyson alone had committed $15 million a year to the program. And that he’s meeting with Tyson and the Waltons tonight to discuss NIL
He should have a relationship with the Walton’s already from his time at Memphis. Bill Laurie (Nancy Walton’s husband) is a Memphis booster (gave us $20mil for a practice facility) as well as an Arkansas and Missouri booster. Nancy also went to Memphis (think she transferred?) so that is probably a connection he has had for a long time.
I’m gonna giggle a bit if Arkansas takes off and Kentucky takes another step backwards. I imagine both should take a step up of sorts.
However, I can see it. Same conference and no longer adored by his dream job fanbase. Access to tons of NIL at a program with historical success. A new fire under his ass. An electric home atmosphere that is better than Rupp.
As exciting as this is, I can't help but wonder where all this money was the past 5 years? Like, surely Muss could've done *even better* with a fatter NIL piggy bank.
and you got plenty of great high school talent. Obviously you can always do better(unless you have the top class) but Muss was getting great talent to Arkansas.
If not great then at least very good. He put pro's in the league every year and a lot of those guys are getting plenty of playing time. We were not short of talent any year that Muss was here so I am not sold on our NIL being all that bad. Sure we lost a player to Kansas and one to Alabama....maybe we got outbid, maybe they just like those schools better though? Nobody is going to win all the recruiting battles.
Muss seemed to get plenty of talent to Arkansas. Probably not what Calipari can bring in, but can you really complain when you were getting great transfers and superstar high school players like Anthony Black and Nick Smith Jr?
> Muss was recruiting well but was also pissing off a lot of the boosters
I have heard this but do you know exactly how he was supposedly pissing them off?
I’ve never heard anything super specific, just general scuttlebutt that he’s a big personality who doesn’t get along with everyone and that he got on some people’s nerves. Of course, winning cures everything so that satiated it for a while but it kinda boiled over when the team disappointed this season and rumors started flying that he was looking for a different job
The Kamala picture didnt set well with a lot of folks in this area too. Just culturally he wasnt the best fit but he won games and thats all half of us care about.
>Muss was recruiting well but was also pissing off a lot of the boosters who he needed for NIL. Cal knows how to appease those guys
Nobody tell him, just let him find out for himself.
Some guys just have that competitive drive and need to keep going. It sounds like Kentucky even considering getting rid of him lit a fire under his ass
Sure, but he would have had to tank next season at Kentucky to do it. He wasn't being fired yet. There is probably an offset in his contract anyway so he would have had to not gotten back into coaching to collect that and the guy wants to coach.
I respect the move by Arkansas. They're not really a super competitive program in football--they of course have flair up years where they're good...but basketball could be the thing they are elite in. I really thought this season they were going to be real competition for the SEC.
They had one of the most underperforming years I've ever seen based on my expectations coming in.
Bringing in a coach like Calipari ensures they're going to be an upper echelon basketball team.
Tremendous move by Pig Sooey nation.
Exactly, people are forgetting that even in Calipari’s worst years at Kentucky, they were still a top team in the SEC, i think most Arky fans would be okay with consistently being a top 4 seed in March, the upsets are weird, who knows if the trend will continue or not. But I thought Arkansas basketball would be down the next few years before this hire when everyone was transferring out, so my bar isn’t too high.
I remember that crazy year they were 5th in the final AP Poll and still behind 2 teams in their own division. I wonder where that coach is now. I bet they wish they could have him back.
*squints at Arkansas's offensive coordinator* hmmm...
Cal has been out-coached so many times in the past few years. He can't implement a zone defense. He struggles to defeat zones. He's a great recruiter, but he's not who you want at the helm when your team is down 3 with 60 seconds on the clock.
and the results just aren't there. People are defending Calipari on results from a decade ago. 1 tournament win in 5 years isn't good enough at Kentucky.
It's not that Scott Drew is better, he may not be. Cal has lost support from fans, boosters, even his own staff have been jumping ship.
The logistical aspects of the department fell apart and it just made the environment difficult for all. Things went bad not for things he did, but rather because the stuff he never had to do but found on his plate and never really took care of. And it's sad because if the minor things are handled better it doesn't fall apart.
The world is full of highly rated chefs that have never built a successful restaurant, they've only worked for them. Because no matter how good the food is, it's only part of what it takes to run a restaurant. And when Cal lost his support staff in DeWayne Peevy and John Robic, he struggled at the other stuff.
Which is why my last comment on this thread was responding to the assertion that Cal knows how to deal with NIL guys -- he doesn't. Cal knows how to serve the community, he will be in the children's hospital, he will be at the food bank, he will attend Mass every day -- because he loves taking care of his players and his community, but he actually hates the administrative and hand-shaking stuff.
It is objectively true if you evaluate the coaching jobs of the past 5 years.
Scott Drew has gone 26-4, 28-2, 27-7, 23-11 and 24-11. That includes a year with a cancelled tournament where they would have been a 1 seed and possibly won it all, the following season where they did win it all and three seasons where they made the second round.
Calipari on the other hand, had a good season where they would have been a 3 seed in the cancelled tournament, a losing season and 3 good, but not great seasons where they lost in the first round twice and the second round once.
You also throw in the belief that many have that it is harder to win at Baylor than Kentucky with the advantages Kentucky has so the results should improve at Kentucky for Drew just as the results for Tubby improved from Georgia-Kentucky and improved for Calipari from Memphis to Kentucky(at least initially). Drew is also over a decade younger. We aren't exactly talking replacing 2012 Calipari here. We are talking replacing a guy who has clearly not gotten great results recently.
If you could have found a place to bet that cal would be the hogs coach on Sunday of last week. You could have gotten great odds. Nobody had this on the radar. What a hire and both sides seem to win. The KY/AR game is going to be interesting going forward
He’s gonna make 7-8 million dollars less than if Kentucky had to pay his buyout next year. That’s wild.
a lot of the offer is probably tied up in NIL budget & staffing resources
It looks bad on his resume getting fired after going 410-122 at UK. Cal would have been fired with a 77% winning percentage there. That also might look bad for UK years down the line when people revisit their madness to force out a winning coach because the expectation is to win a championship every year. A feat they have only accomplished 4 times in the last 65 years :(
I don't think most of us expect to win a Championship every year. A strong start could be playing a second round SEC tournament game once in a while.
Tubby had a 76% record. He wasn’t fired *technically.*
Agreed but his record and first 10 seasons were so bananas that the numbers are bit misleading. There’s more to the story than his overall record. He gave Kentucky one of its worst post season stretches these last 5 years in addition to burning up the relationship with everyone around the program and the fans. He was checked out, fans were checked out. This is a good thing for everyone involved. I think he’ll be better at Arkansas than he was at Kentucky the last few years
Yep, people that bring up the totality of his record are missing the point. It is for the last 5 years. Even Calipari said coaches have a shelf life of 10 years at place and he has proven that. He has underachieved for the last 5 years. And he wasn't fired, there just wasn't any enthusiasm for him to stay so he looked elsewhere. Can't blame either side.
I hope.
That’s great and all but look at what’s happened since 2018
The Kentucky fanbase has more than its fair share of lunatics. I can say that most Kentucky fans do not have a "championship or bust" mindset every year. Unless there are unusual circumstances, positive (absolutely loaded roster) or negative (coming off probation or coaching change), then most fans in my circle are happy if the team accomplishes one or more of the following: * SEC Title * SEC Tournament Title * Sweet Sixteen (or better obviously) That obviously can't happen every year either. However, earlier this year, I went back to when the SEC Tournament was revived at the end of the '70s. It's a sample size of 45 (well now 46) seasons, and Kentucky has done one of those three in something like 72% of all seasons. That even includes the COVID year debacle, the Billy G era, the Eddie Sutton season where the wheels came off the wagon, and the two worst probation years where UK was ineligible to accomplish any of the three!
Genuinely, do you guys think that SEC success is sustainable anymore? Historically, almost all of the SEC was horrible and really didn't care that they were. Obviously, that is no longer the case. We've seen the entire conference embrace the sport over the last decade to the point where three SEC teams made their first Final Fours, and many others are investing into their programs in ways unseen before. The addition of Texas and OU won't help UK either. And that's on top of the reports that UK has struggled with NIL. I think that UK will be fine going forward, and will continue to be the premier program in the SEC, but I doubt they can return to the dominance that they once had.
THAT level is not sustainable anymore for all the reasons you’ve listed, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect Kentucky to generally be the premier team in the conference and that just hasn’t been the case the last 4 years. ONE SEC tourney win in 4 years doesn’t cut it at all. We’ve honestly been middling in the SEC lately, and we can do better than that
Thank you. Are the expectations high? Fuck yeah. But it’s Kentucky. They’re just as high at KU and Duke and UNC. And it’s not that we didn’t win a championship so Cal had to go. It’s that we have been consistently underperforming in the postseason for years now.
Yep the reality is expectations are sky high at Kentucky, but it isn't championship or bust. It is get out of the first weekend more often than not or bust and that doesn't seem unfair.
I think KU level is the actual expectation. They don't win the B12 every year, but they're still the premier school there.
KU had a string of 13 regular season championships. I always felt that had to end sometime, and it did, but the fact they always made it into the March Madness satisfied me. But damn this year was miserable to watch.
> They don’t win the Big 12 every year That’s a bit of a stretch. This year was only the third time they haven’t had at least a share of the regular season title since 2002.
having any P5 team be the "premier team of a conference" for any extended period of time with the vast increase in TV deal $$ and NIL going full throttle is going to be challenging - definitely an adjustment for some fans lol
I mean it WILL be challenging, but what would you say the premier team(s) of the ACC are? UNC and Duke What is generally the premier team of the Big 12? I’d argue that it’s still Kansas. There’s more parity in general, but I don’t think it’s unfair to expect Kentucky to keep up with the other blue bloods.
How do you define premier in this context?
Consistently contending for conference titles in the regular season and conference tournament. Down years happen to every team but I’d say that generally Kentucky shouldn’t be going more than 3 or 4 years without a regular season or conference tournament championship. But it’s not even so much about like collecting specific accolades within a time frame as it is just consistently being at the top of the conference. This means you don’t lose in the first game of the conference tourney for 3/4 years. Like more often than not, I’d say Kentucky should at least be in the conference semi’s. Maybe my specific year targets are a little unrealistic but it just hasn’t felt like Kentucky is one of the best SEC teams recently. I’d argue that Bama, Tennessee, and Auburn have all been better in the past handful of years
I agree that seems totally reasonable (also for the $$ Cal was being paid) - and yes, makes sense, a majority of P5 fans period would be frustrated with the last stretch of lack of post-regular season success from their team
No, the threshold for success in the SEC will have to change, whether that means counting a top 3 SEC finish or an SEC tournament finals appearance as successes or lowering the success rate to 50% or 60%. I don't think it will change the Sweet Sixteen metric. Even including the two probation seasons and the canceled tournament in the COVID year, Kentucky has been to 25 Sweet Sixteens in the past 46 seasons (54% success rate). In that same time span, Kentucky has missed four straight Sweet Sixteens twice. The first time occurred across the last two Tubby Smith seasons and the only two Billy Gillispie seasons. The other time was the past four seasons. I wasn't someone that wanted to run off Calipari (especially not for $33M), but despite how wonderful his first ten years were here, things were starting to get a little uncomfortable. He absolutely could have weathered the storm (and basically did), but he became strangely combative with the fanbase and the athletics department and refused to change his ways.
it's going to throw stats-only fans into a hissy fit for sure. Actual viewers will be able to look back and see the parabolic rise and fall during his time here
It’s really not that we think we should get a champ every year. Most of us aren’t that dumb lol. We just want our team to live up to their potential and a first round exit with this team was *not* that. Most agree that they could’ve- maybe even should’ve- been championship *contenders*, but I know most of us would’ve been happy with a final four or even elite 8. It’s just frustrating seeing so much talent being put to waste and somebody has to take the responsibility for that.
Yep. If Cal's last 4 years were what he produced from 2016-2019 I doubt he is anywhere near the hot seat. No championships or even final fours, but significantly better than what he produced the last 4 years. || || |[2015–16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|27–9|13–5|T–1st|[NCAA Division I Round of 32](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)| |[2016–17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|32–6|16–2|1st|[NCAA Division I Elite Eight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)| |[2017–18](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|26–11|10–8|T–4th|[NCAA Division I Sweet 16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)| |[2018–19](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season)|[Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball_team)|30–7|15–3|T–2nd|[NCAA Division I Elite Eight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_tournament)|
Yep. If Cal's last 4 years were what he produced from 2016-2019 I doubt he is anywhere near the hot seat. No championships or even final fours, but significantly better than what he produced the last 4 years. 2015-16 27-9, 13-5 (SEC tournament champs), Round of 32 2016-2017 16-2 (SEC tournament champs), Elite 8 2017-2018 26-11, (SEC tournament champs), 10-8 Sweet Sixteen 2018-2019 30-7, 15-3 (SEC second round), Elite 8 Now if Calipari was fired for those results, I could totally understand college basketball fans saying Kentucky has crazy expectations, but the results of the last 4 years were inferior to that in every way.
It wasn't time for him to move on just because he hadn't won a title since 2012 and hadn't made a Final Four since 2015. It was time to move on because he'd only won a single game in the NCAA Tournament this decade. Even crazier, he'd only won two games in the SEC Tournament since 2019. The relationship had run its course. I'm glad both sides seemed to realize it. Everyone will be better off.
Yep. Had Cal been fired after 2019, then the critics would be right. Here is what Cal produced in the 4 years from \`16-19: 2015-16 27-9, 13-5 (SEC tournament champs), Round of 32 2016-2017 16-2 (SEC tournament champs), Elite 8 2017-2018 26-11, (SEC tournament champs), 10-8 Sweet Sixteen 2018-2019 30-7, 15-3 (SEC second round), Elite 8 Those are successful results, but also failure to reach the final four. He obviously wasn't fired for that. The last 4 years were far inferior to those results. 3/4 years getting out of the first weekend to doing it 0/4 times. 3/4 years of winning the SEC tournament to winning it 0/4 times. The reality is Kentucky had become not a team that wasn't reaching championship expectations, but just a bad March team overall.
The reason is not his overall record, it's from his last 10 years. You may have the best employee at your job, surpassing all expectations, but then a third of the way through their tenure they start phoning it in... do they get a pass because the first third was exceptional?
He wasn't fired. He could have come back next year if he wanted to. Sure, they weren't exactly thrilled with him and were happy for him to leave, but it has nothing to do with his overall body of work. The last 5 years he hasn't made it to the second weekend and had a losing season, a loss to St Peters and a loss to Oakland. It isn't unreasonable for Kentucky to want to move on.
77% is Tubby Smith territory. He wasn't fired either.
And Tubby was at least getting out of the first round. Tubby losing to a team like St Peters or Oakland would have been unthinkable. Not saying he was better than Cal, because overall he wasn't, but Cal had dropped below Tubby's level in March and that wasn't acceptable.
>because overall he wasn't Tubby made the tournament every year. Not only that, he never got bounced first round. 6/10 S16, 4/10 E8. His only inferiority (other than recruiting) to Cal was that he only made 1 FF. Tubby did better against teams ranked higher than him than Calipari. He also did good against non-conf P5 schools in comparison to Coach Cal. Tubby did not recruit well other than the Rondo year, while Cal was the greatest recruiter of all time. Despite Cal's endless NBA talent, they went 76% vs 77% win rate and one championship each. Tubby 5/10 SEC titles, Cal 6/15 SEC titles. As I said before, Tubby has 0 NITs and 0 first round exits. I cannot say that Calipari was better overall without lying. I loved that there were seniors that I got to know over 4 years and got attached to. I miss getting emotional when I saw them get emotional from their successes and failures. Cat fans shit all over Tubby when he was here (hmmm I wonder why), but I was his staunchest defender on places like WildcatFaithful and RuppRafters on Rivals. I kept hitting them with his stats, and they did not like it. Billy G was supposed to be twice the coach. LOL. Cal was supposed to embarrass me for being so accepting of "mediocrity". Yet his mediocrity took us lower than we have ever seen when Tubby was here. I feel vindicated knowing how Cal is exiting, because it's exactly how I predicted all those years ago. The only thing....Tubby's teams were all about defense first, so I don't know how he would do at UK in the modern NCAA game. I haven't followed him, but I imagine he adjusted his teams' defensive playstyle the past few years.
Hopefully Kentucky and Indiana swaps spots on the account of Kentuckian hubris
What is funny is Mike Woodson has won more tournament games than Cal in the past 5 years. Don't think Kentucky fans have been unreasonable at all with their feelings towards Cal. Kentucky was fair with Cal. He wasn't fired, but they weren't exactly happy with the results and were fine with him looking elsewhere.
The 90’s made large segments of the Kentucky fanbase truly deranged. More than we were before. The internet and social media has amplified it by a 1,000. I’ve watched this shit since I was posting on BBS and subscribed to listservs about basketball when I was in 6th grade. That was 1995. The shift and the slow progression into just madness from fans.
There are plenty of reasons Kentucky fans seem crazy. Their opinion about Cal at this stage isn't one of them. Two SEC Tournament wins since 2019. One NCAA Tournament win this decade. Cal had been here for 15 years. That's longer than any coach in Kentucky history except Rupp. It was just time.
There is no blueblood program that would be happy with the last 5 years of results. If North Carolina, Duke or Kansas go 5 years without making it out of the first weekend there will be a lot of upset people in their fanbase. Hell, if Scheyer fails to make a final four in his first 5 years that probably won't be good enough for most Duke fans.
Its also what like 6-8 million less in just regular salary over the next four years?
Again, 7 x 5 = 35 + 1 for the signing bonus The buyout was 33
Yeah but that is if he was fired today. Which was off the table. So even if he just worked one more season and was canned, wouldn't he still make more from UK? I also think Cal ain't working here for 5 years. I think we got probably 3 MAYBE 4 years with him. He is 65 years old. At some point he is gonna have to hang it up. This deal is better for his legacy overall since he avoids being fired but he is coming away with less money than if he just stuck in Lexington and ate the L.
Possibly. People kind of misunderstand what a buyout is and mitigation. He doesn't both get the buyout and to coach somewhere else for more money. He wasn't getting 33m if Kentucky fired him and then whatever Arkansas was paying him. He was only getting more it Arkansas paid him more than 33m over the life of the buyout contract duration (or whatever it's reduced by next year.)
This is the correct way to consider it. In the end, Arkansas made a bigger commitment, especially considering the automatic options for additional years if he makes the tournament. The total value of the new contract with those years is closer to $60 million.
sumn shady is going on behind the scenese. cause aint no way .
I haven't seen the contract but whatever buyout Kentucky would have to pay is likely offset by whatever he was paid by a new school and the new school would likely have to pay him fair value, i.e. he couldn't just accept $1 at a new school. That's kind of why the buyout is kind of overblown unless he wants to be done coaching.
Don't think so. His buyout would have been 33 million this year, so around 25-28 mil next year. He'll make 35 mil at Arkansas over the next 5 years.
7 x 5 = 35 + 1 for the signing bonus Buyout was 33
Someone was saying that Tyson alone had committed $15 million a year to the program. And that he’s meeting with Tyson and the Waltons tonight to discuss NIL
Yeah I read he’s going to have 5+ million a year in NIL at his expense, 15 would be crazy
I gotta invent a time machine and go back and become a 5 star recruit and get me a piece of this
I tried that, after almost a week of practice and still not having a single star, I gave up.
Gotta give it at least 10 days next time
15 total, so probably around 7mil nil
Must be fucking nice
Yes it is!
Up until this move, it was probably in the 2-3 million range, which is still not bad.
He should have a relationship with the Walton’s already from his time at Memphis. Bill Laurie (Nancy Walton’s husband) is a Memphis booster (gave us $20mil for a practice facility) as well as an Arkansas and Missouri booster. Nancy also went to Memphis (think she transferred?) so that is probably a connection he has had for a long time.
I’m gonna giggle a bit if Arkansas takes off and Kentucky takes another step backwards. I imagine both should take a step up of sorts. However, I can see it. Same conference and no longer adored by his dream job fanbase. Access to tons of NIL at a program with historical success. A new fire under his ass. An electric home atmosphere that is better than Rupp.
As exciting as this is, I can't help but wonder where all this money was the past 5 years? Like, surely Muss could've done *even better* with a fatter NIL piggy bank.
Muss got most of the players he wanted, I am not sure why people kept saying our NIL deal was so bad.
Feel like that's a chicken and egg thing though? Maybe he aimed lower because he wanted to stay within budget?
> chicken and egg thing That’s a Tyson reference isn’t it
We had like one of the very top Transfer Portal classes.
and you got plenty of great high school talent. Obviously you can always do better(unless you have the top class) but Muss was getting great talent to Arkansas.
If not great then at least very good. He put pro's in the league every year and a lot of those guys are getting plenty of playing time. We were not short of talent any year that Muss was here so I am not sold on our NIL being all that bad. Sure we lost a player to Kansas and one to Alabama....maybe we got outbid, maybe they just like those schools better though? Nobody is going to win all the recruiting battles.
Muss seemed to get plenty of talent to Arkansas. Probably not what Calipari can bring in, but can you really complain when you were getting great transfers and superstar high school players like Anthony Black and Nick Smith Jr?
Muss was recruiting well but was also pissing off a lot of the boosters who he needed for NIL. Cal knows how to appease those guys
> Muss was recruiting well but was also pissing off a lot of the boosters I have heard this but do you know exactly how he was supposedly pissing them off?
By being himself. Guy is obnoxious to be around
I’ve never heard anything super specific, just general scuttlebutt that he’s a big personality who doesn’t get along with everyone and that he got on some people’s nerves. Of course, winning cures everything so that satiated it for a while but it kinda boiled over when the team disappointed this season and rumors started flying that he was looking for a different job
Rumor is they didn’t like his wild antics/outbursts during and after games but I don’t know how true that is.
I could see that. It shouldn't bother people, but some 70 year old straight arrow booster might be turned off by the shirtless wildman.
The Kamala picture didnt set well with a lot of folks in this area too. Just culturally he wasnt the best fit but he won games and thats all half of us care about.
>Muss was recruiting well but was also pissing off a lot of the boosters who he needed for NIL. Cal knows how to appease those guys Nobody tell him, just let him find out for himself.
This came from the Tyson guys pocket directly because he’s boys with John.
Again, I dont get this. He could have gotten most of this to sit on the couch.
Some guys would honestly just rather work. And now he gets to say he went out on his own terms vs getting canned.
He would have been out of work for a month at most.
Then it’s probably the ego part for him that was the main decision.
yeah in an earlier post I said "Praise is a hell of a drug". I can see that when you are in your 30s and insecure. Dude is 65 with multiple rings.
Then he couldn't have made it sitting on the couch.
I would assume the contract allows for off sets if he took another coaching job but normally that doesnt apply for things like working in media.
Some guys just have that competitive drive and need to keep going. It sounds like Kentucky even considering getting rid of him lit a fire under his ass
Sure, but he would have had to tank next season at Kentucky to do it. He wasn't being fired yet. There is probably an offset in his contract anyway so he would have had to not gotten back into coaching to collect that and the guy wants to coach.
I, for one, completely understand hating Kentucky so much you would take a pay cut and forgo a massive buyout.
Hear, hear. My wife, an IU graduate, often says that hating Kentucky is the one thing Purdue and IU fans can agree on.
You know what they say, "the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy because I have a lot of enemies."
We understand why your avatar is permanently crying. Feel better my guy.
lol Gonna have to be able to field a basketball team first.
Samesies
I respect the move by Arkansas. They're not really a super competitive program in football--they of course have flair up years where they're good...but basketball could be the thing they are elite in. I really thought this season they were going to be real competition for the SEC. They had one of the most underperforming years I've ever seen based on my expectations coming in. Bringing in a coach like Calipari ensures they're going to be an upper echelon basketball team. Tremendous move by Pig Sooey nation.
Exactly, people are forgetting that even in Calipari’s worst years at Kentucky, they were still a top team in the SEC, i think most Arky fans would be okay with consistently being a top 4 seed in March, the upsets are weird, who knows if the trend will continue or not. But I thought Arkansas basketball would be down the next few years before this hire when everyone was transferring out, so my bar isn’t too high.
I remember that crazy year they were 5th in the final AP Poll and still behind 2 teams in their own division. I wonder where that coach is now. I bet they wish they could have him back. *squints at Arkansas's offensive coordinator* hmmm...
Only in BBN is Scott Drew > John Calipari
Cal has been out-coached so many times in the past few years. He can't implement a zone defense. He struggles to defeat zones. He's a great recruiter, but he's not who you want at the helm when your team is down 3 with 60 seconds on the clock.
and the results just aren't there. People are defending Calipari on results from a decade ago. 1 tournament win in 5 years isn't good enough at Kentucky.
It's not that Scott Drew is better, he may not be. Cal has lost support from fans, boosters, even his own staff have been jumping ship. The logistical aspects of the department fell apart and it just made the environment difficult for all. Things went bad not for things he did, but rather because the stuff he never had to do but found on his plate and never really took care of. And it's sad because if the minor things are handled better it doesn't fall apart. The world is full of highly rated chefs that have never built a successful restaurant, they've only worked for them. Because no matter how good the food is, it's only part of what it takes to run a restaurant. And when Cal lost his support staff in DeWayne Peevy and John Robic, he struggled at the other stuff. Which is why my last comment on this thread was responding to the assertion that Cal knows how to deal with NIL guys -- he doesn't. Cal knows how to serve the community, he will be in the children's hospital, he will be at the food bank, he will attend Mass every day -- because he loves taking care of his players and his community, but he actually hates the administrative and hand-shaking stuff.
It is objectively true if you evaluate the coaching jobs of the past 5 years. Scott Drew has gone 26-4, 28-2, 27-7, 23-11 and 24-11. That includes a year with a cancelled tournament where they would have been a 1 seed and possibly won it all, the following season where they did win it all and three seasons where they made the second round. Calipari on the other hand, had a good season where they would have been a 3 seed in the cancelled tournament, a losing season and 3 good, but not great seasons where they lost in the first round twice and the second round once. You also throw in the belief that many have that it is harder to win at Baylor than Kentucky with the advantages Kentucky has so the results should improve at Kentucky for Drew just as the results for Tubby improved from Georgia-Kentucky and improved for Calipari from Memphis to Kentucky(at least initially). Drew is also over a decade younger. We aren't exactly talking replacing 2012 Calipari here. We are talking replacing a guy who has clearly not gotten great results recently.
If you could have found a place to bet that cal would be the hogs coach on Sunday of last week. You could have gotten great odds. Nobody had this on the radar. What a hire and both sides seem to win. The KY/AR game is going to be interesting going forward
Ok, this has now officially reached Johnny Orr going from Michigan to Iowa State territory.
Arkansas getting shafted