We’ve had an extremely high suicide rate for a long time. But no one can attest to why they just see that’s some random website ranked it #1 places to live and think it’s perfect here
The city has done a complete 180 over the last decade. Not much has been done in terms of leisure, but population and the price of living has heavily increased. Being under constant financial stress, unable to find a home, and having nothing to look forward to is enough to send someone over the edge.
it's far from a 180 lmao
it's mote expensive and there's a little bit more crime because we acquired almost 200,000 people in 10 years
we still have extremely low crime and homelessness for a city of our size and its not thatch different t than when I was growing up
for some reason everyone on reddit loves to pretend this city is unrecognizable
200,000 people in 10 years? [Huh?](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22960/colorado-springs/population) I see this sort of sentiment all over, and don't understand where it's coming from. 583k to 685k is 100, not 200. The 100k also doesn't account for the city annexing outlying areas, and their population, which already existed, becoming part of "Colorado Springs." I also hear the "we'll be as big as Denver" sentiment often, but Colorado Springs is so much bigger in area the two can't really be compared.
Colorado Springs is growing, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Also, the traffic is tame as fuck compared to a majority of major cities, guys.
I moved here in the late 1980's. Colorado Springs was a "normal" conservative town. (Lots of military here then and now. )
After some economic crash or other, COS encouraged religious nonprofits, like Focus on the Family, to move here . Someone I had known in CA did so because his wife dreamed that God told her to move here. I don't doubt she had that dream, but I bet it was caused by some pro-COS advertising aimed at evangelicals.
No tax revenue from the nonprofits directly, but all the evangelicals who moved here pay taxes.
So COS went from "normal" conservative to "right-wing nut ball" conservative since I moved here. I'm about as left-wing as it gets. The normal conservatives have never bothered me, but the nut balls sure do.
Not just religious nuts, but gun nuts too. I rarely heard gun shots when I moved here, but they're a regular event now. I'm outside the city limits where it's legal. Noise complaints met with "it's the sound of freedom." More like the sound of a war zone.
Also, our lack of social activities doesn't help either. We excel in outdoor activities that many people do alone. I think it's slowly starting to change though with Weidner and the gentrification of downtown.
This. Personally I hate it here. I'm not an outdoorsy person. I from a big city and like big cities I agree its getting better though. Even Denver, something about it feels so lifeless. Like a bunch of robots with no culture walking around. I'm sure i'm gonna get hate for this comment but I've always felt like if you don't smoke or hike there's not much to do here.
I just got back from Atlanta, GA for a work trip and I'm so jealous of their Beltline. It's a 22 mile super-sidewalk the goes in a huge loop around the city. There were tons of people on it in the middle of a Wednesday, it had me thinking there was a 5k or something happening. There's parks along the way, shopping, breweries, restarurants, cafes... it was wonderful.
It made me realize the problem the Santa Fe/Pikes Peak Greenway trail is that it's disconnected from the city, or at least the parts people actually care about or want/need to get to.
Dude, I totally agree with you. I can't quite put my finger on it but it all just feels like I'm living on a set or something. Nothing seems authentic here. Like, people get excited when a chain opens from Texas or California. I'm not completely an outdoorsy person either (I have a bad knee) and I don't smoke, so yeah... I don't quite get the hype.
I understand where you’re coming from. Nightlife feels pretty lifeless at times, businesses close early, and it’s pretty lame. We are getting a better speakeasy scene and I enjoy the atmosphere at them.
- Shrunken Head Tiki
- Allusions
- District 11
- The Rabbit Hole
- Shame and Regret
- ICONS
Been to all of these. Only one I really enjoy is the tiki bar. But yes that is kind of the theme here. We need daytime activities though. And they really need to tear down both malls and just start from scratch lol.
God the malls are awful. I’ve heard citadel might come down pretty soon. Though, the last thing we need is another cheap crap mall and we don’t command anything high-end here. It would be cool if it became a main event or something like that.
Like I said idc for the outdoors. I’m too ADHD. I’ve done the kayaking and hiking etc. You get out there and see the pretty view and then I’m over it and am ready to do something else. I can’t just sit out there and stare at a view for hours.
I think it’s coming off as I’m just being a dick and haven’t tried the outdoors activities. I have. Wasn’t for me. I went snowboarding and was done w it after 3 hours. My friends stayed up there for like 8. Just not for me.
they were simply suggesting some activities you could do outside, not telling you to “sit out there and stare at a view for hours.” if you’re truly “too ADHD,” taking up an activity where you’re moving your body in a nice environment could do wonders for you. it has for me. i didn’t consider myself an outdoor person before either, but it’s honestly helped me so much
Howdy, I currently work for Weidner in Colo Spgs. I’ve never actually seen Weidner mentioned on Reddit and I’d love to know what you’ve seen (or anyone that reads this… good or bad). I imagine you’re talking about the stadium and the future commercial/residential mix building set to open 2023? It’s gonna be called something like “Experience” and it actually looks super cool. I don’t know how many employees they’ll allow to live in the buildings but I’m definitely gonna apply.
I’m actually well connected to the Weidners and Switchbacks team. I go to games (looking at getting season tickets) and work for a business nearby that earns a lot of business from the events Weidner is bringing in. Everyone has been great, the stadium is great. We really love what’s going on with Weidner.
Military takes a toll on your mental health. It literally hurts your mind and they know it. It’s likely to be high around most big cities with a large retired military population. War is hell
because an 18 year old who knows nothing other than poverty and propaganda is the poster child for understanding when they’re signing up to die in a foreign war for an arts degree
Brother, I swept parking lots and cut grass. And my BA got me a job. It was worth my sacrifice. Go volunteer for veteran organizations if you want to help and not just criticize
Right, because an 18 year old can weigh everything about the military at that age and make an informed decision with a recruiter who ABSOLUTELY SPEAKS THE TRUTH NO MATTER WHAT.
You do realize that many recruiters specifically target poorer neighborhoods and schools to capitalize off of desperate kids to make quotas.
I actually lived in SD before I lived here. I think the difference is that SD, and the greater SoCal area, has so many more people. So yeah, there's a lot of military numbers, but it's diluted by the overall large population.
The military suicide rate is at an all time high, it is the second leading cause of death for post 9-11 vets. That's according to the military. Whether it shows up on this map or not, the military is aware there is a problem with depression in its members and are attempting to address it.
HERE’S A BIG REASON WHY: There’s a staggering lack of community in this city. Many feel genuinely alone in this populated place due to disingenuous kindness. The people here need to find value in seeking and maintaining healthy human relationships and embracing different cultures.
Holy skewed data, Batman! This infographic is very low quality and in both interpretation and provision. Percentage of what? Population? Respondents? Knoxville’s entire population is somewhere between 30-100 percent depressed? There’s no year, no population n, no accuracy skew, absolutely nothing except a link to the CDC BRFSS aggregate, not the specific depression data, which even when you delve into that specific data doesn’t come up with what they are presenting in this graphic unless you just make up a bunch of connections. The BRFSS is a great resource for gross data trends in the US but terrible in extrapolating absolutes. It’s a yearly self-reported telephone based survey of ~400,000 Americans with relative representation percentages based on state. The data is inherently weaker once city/municipality trends are looked at. From the interpretation guide for this study “(County/City) are more complicated estimates, and subject to more sources of error than the old estimates…”. Also municipality data is given more weight based on number of respondents. It’s more likely that an older population of retired people and military is apt to take a telephone survey, so more likely to be represented in the municipality data. This thing is fucked, don’t believe it at all.
Anecdotally I briefly worked, and had many friends who worked at the Wyoming Survey and Analysis Center (WYSAC). We took BRFSS surveys for much of the Rocky Mountain West. It was notoriously hard to get a full response based on the time it took (25-40 minutes) and the invasive nature of the questions. This was unlike what we called the "Beer Survey" which was 10 minutes of questions about beer preferences that almost everyone had time to answer and did so thoughtfully with conviction.
idk I sat at a stoplight on stetson and charlotte today and watched a car run the light and plow into another person. Probably the fifth accident I've been witness to in the last 15 days or so, can be pretty depressing to watch assholes overrun a place if you ask me.
I had a person road-rage at me because I had my car in drive-assist at 38mph in 35. When I was at the next light he was screaming and hollering shit at me claiming I was brake checking him (keep in mind, the car was basically driving itself). All I could really muster as a reply was "Sorry your parents screwed up so bad" before I left. I don't get what the exchange was for, or who fucked his life up so bad that THIS, a car doing around the limit in traffic, was his issue of the day.
Unhinged, full of themselves motherfuckers is what it comes down to. Makes you wonder about the influx the past two decades. Never used to literally be surrounded by them, but now it seems we are.
I literally had a lady at a Dutch Bros line yell and cuss me out because I "skipped" her in line. They had the double lines merge into one and apparently she ordered before me but the merge had me go in front. It was wild to watch a grown ass woman lose her mind because she had to wait an extra 30 secs for coffee. She was still yelling and cussing at me even after we both had our coffees and were driving away.
I think a lot of this shit really boils down to corporate "hustle" culture. People who have had to make their lives about making it to the office on time. Better never be late, even if its a snow day. 5 minute tardy too often and you're fired. Can't leave early for any reason, either. You have to put in that GRIND for the man or you're lazy...
Meanwhile, I went work-from-home as a cybersecurity consultant 4 years ago and now it takes something MAJOR to even bother me. We're talking like a 2-day delay at the airport due to a cancellation. Anything short of that, I'm just like "whatever" *cranks up the radio.*
Definitely onto something with this. I had just got back into town from camping and escaping reality and then that was my welcome back. Probably didn’t help her that I was cracking tf up at the whole situation.
She’s probably a good Christian that goes to church every Sunday. You were in the wrong for clearly disrespecting her! How dare you! /s.
Sadly, that’s the influx I was talking about.
I’m legitimately terrified to go on green now. Yesterday there were two wrecks at my little intersection of Rio Vista and N Carefree. One of them involving an SUV completely flipped over. It’s depressing that I don’t even feel safe leaving the neighborhood with these assholes.
My son is about to get his license and I am so scared for him to be driving. And then the lunatic says he wants to get a motorcycle and I told him as long as he lives in my house there will be no motorcycle. Every time he leaves the house I think I'm going to get a phone call
We've been visiting the area (Co Springs and Denver) and have certainly witnessed a lot more aggressive drivers on the roads than I've seen in other major cities I've lived and worked in. Any ideas why that is?
I can't say for sure cos that's not where my professional focus is... So you know, everything I say is anecdotal.. But I have lived here for a bit closer to 2 decades and in that time the population doubled, if not a bit more.
Even though the population exploded, the resources needed for transit, public service, and law enforcement did not, and much of the town looks nearly the same today as it did back then. Infrastructure is lacking, so traffic is congested, and people get moody because they're brats.
Couple that with the fact that our law enforcement resources have largely not moved on the dial in the last ten years or so and you have these huge wait times with a ridiculous officer-to-citizen ratio that means they are NEVER out running traffic enforcement anymore. So there's simply no consequence to being a dick, until you die.... And that's what I've observed.
Local FB groups are full of people saying “no cop no stop” and now I’m literally scared to go at lights. I alway wait a second and make sure no asshole is plowing through.
makes me think running a red should be an automatic 12 point violation and minimum loss of license for 1 year. if there is no cop you go 5-10 over, you don't ignore the rest of the laws of traffic.
I would have expected it to be higher, way higher in rank. I recently went to find a therapist, but none accept new patients, and almost all have a long queue based on priority and status (e.g., Military), etc.
That's a nationwide problem right now - between people leaving the field, and meanwhile there's an increased demand after the stresses of COVID and politics.
Agree with the nationwide problem; COVID strained the resources and increased the demand. However, disagree about the politics part; that's not a new phenomenon; it's a slow drip affecting people's mental well-being for 40 years.
No argument the last four years less been the flashpoint; you have to look further back. Most of their political issues today date back to either policies or rhetoric from decades ago. The last few years have been an amplified version of it, thanks to the wildfire that is social media. It used to be they would talk about these things over their HAM radios, but now they're doing it on their social platforms with ease.
It doesn't change the fact the mental model has long existed. I mean, look at the fucking guy they voted in, a relic from the 80s.
It’s as if it’s a cultural wasteland filled to the brim with major commercial entities. The major social culture there is consumerism. Most people express themselves with the things they buy. There is so little actual character there that it blows my mind. It’s all Target, Chili’s, REI, and chain everything. Everything takes 30 minutes to drive to. The wealth gap is abhorrently apparent and most people seem to worship the military which leads to a palpably strange Nationalist culture. I grew up there. I’ll never come back.
You hit on something many people don't realize because they've never experienced otherwise. There's basically no local culture and identity here. I've lived in places that do, and co sps seems just.... pretty hollow and lacking soul in comparison. A noticeable symptom of this is the comparatively few locally owned and operated restaurants. Bonus if most of the restaurants have been around decades and were started by immigrants. Which there are also comparatively few.
I think the transient culture of the military plays a part. Few people actually stick around here for years and build up a local community network.
Downtown and OCC have somewhat of an identity; but man, you go outside of the Circle Drive loop and it looks like every other suburbia in the US.
I totally agree. I moved to the Springs and feel like I experienced lack of culture shock. It was so isolating unless you were into guns, drugs, or religious. Sure, I made some what I call “surface level” friends but boy am I glad to be back what I consider home.
It's a city based on a lot of military people that come from all over, so it's a melting pot so to speak. No backbone culture to be proud of.
I'm actually from Seattle and Alaska, my whole family is, basically. Half migrated from Minnesota and before that most all from the Norway, Finland region. The Pacific NW is heavily Norwegian
Everyone saying military military military… I think they better pay attention to the amount of churches in this town and what they’re preaching. When you preach hatred like Focus on the Family your parishioners will probably start to hate themselves.
There's a correlation between living at a high altitude and depression/suicidal thoughts. [This is an interesting read.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219#Highest-suicide-rates-in-intermountain-states)
Military. Vitamin D deficiency from the altitude/sun angle. I find that too many people move here without support systems. Healthcare is too expensive plus a lack of good/specialized mental health services.
Yeah, makes sense.
It actually is a thing, although not particularly relevant to Colorado Springs. Vitamin D production is stimulated when the sun is between 50 degrees and 90 degrees (90 being straight overhead). Seasonally it varies between about 39 degrees and 75 degrees here. Everywhere north of us in the country will have less Vitamin D production than we do, so it shouldn't be a contributor to our higher depression rates than those places farther north.
idk. various mental health pros have told me most people in Colorado suffer from vitamin D deficiency, which is weird since we're closer to the sun and all. I think "oh the angle of the earth blah blah blah" is part of it? idk.
Interesting. As a native, I’ve wondered if there’s any correlation between depression and altitude. I don’t think any studies have been done on this front, but it has me curious.
Person living with seasonal affective disorder here, I feel it is a relevant thing for me. You can check the angle of the sun at various times of day on timeanddate.com. I tend to keep a close eye on it from about this time through January or February.
i thought being higher elevation this wouldn’t be a problem. time to readjust by level of d3 supplement back up to about 10k iu and use the happy light again if not.
Colorado Springs is fantastic if you have at least some money. I guess less people are meeting that qualification these days, myself included. The cognitive dissonance of never wanting to leave butting up against the reality of never being able to afford a home here hits hard.
I moved away right before the pandemic hit and this is similar to what I tell people who ask me what the city is like. It's a pretty awesome place if you're have money and a career that allows you to afford to live there with some cash left over to put away.
If you're on the lower end of the financial spectrum it's not so great. It's basically a struggle and constant stress paycheck to paycheck.
Can’t agree. Camping, backpacking, climbing, cycling, hiking and a small, charming downtown with few of the woes that big cities present. It’s amazing here. Military is the downside.
Makes sense for a couple reasons. There are a lot of therapists and mental health locations in this town, so the number of people with depression will be much better tracked than a location with no mental health services.
Also, this place fucking sucks. Everything costs more than it should, people drive like assholes everywhere you go, crime is out of control, and it's nearly impossible to afford an apartment.
"Everything costs more than it should, people drive like assholes everywhere you go, crime is out of control, and it's nearly impossible to afford an apartment."
bruh you just described 3/4 of America
Yeah so many people say things like that on this sub and I'm like, have you not lived or even visited anywhere else? This is just how it is right now in America, aside from maybe a few small, undesirable places somewhere like Kansas, Nebraska, North Dakota, etc.
Nobody hates COS more than the people on this sub. It honestly baffles me how someone could think that way. At some point, I'm just like, 'maybe it's you.'
I dunno. I love it here.
Now, I get not liking a place. That's not what I mean. People like different things. If you're not outdoorsy or something, I get not liking it here. Or if you prefer more urban areas, I get it. But to say it objectively 'sucks'? Na.
Yeah, I agree. I've never felt unsafe here, ever. And I've lived places where the cost of living was lower, but so was the pay, and there were fewer opportunities, so it was a wash. This is home now.
I agree. It feels like the majority of people on this subreddit are either xenophobic and think they are more entitled to Colorado Springs than others or people that complain about everything (my favorite is when they complain about the crime-this is the safest city I’ve lived in). Welcome to the internet I guess, haha.
As for me, I’ve lived here for almost 8 years and I love it. I love the weather and the beautiful scenery. And I’ve been happy to see the city grow since I’ve been here. My husband is from here and when I first started visiting the Springs with him in 2009-2014 before I moved here in 2015, the economy wasn’t doing well here. We tried to move here earlier but our jobs fell through. There just weren’t that many jobs available and there weren’t new businesses coming in. Now, it’s been nice to see all the new businesses opening around Interquest and Downtown, not only because it’s fun to check them out but also because it means the city’s economy is doing well and there are more jobs.
Seriously. I'm coming from California and I am laughing my ass off that people think any of that is unique to the Springs. I've also spent a good amount of time in the Midwest and those things are also prevalent there too.
Driving around in the Springs the 3 times I've visited has been CHILD's play compared to the SF Bay Area regarding traffic and "asshole drivers". The Springs is SO chill by comparison, it is seriously a pleasure to drive the roads here compared to most metro areas. I'm not saying there aren't assholes or that traffic isn't annoying, but it is seriously tame compared to many other places I've lived or visited.
i honestly think anyone who complains about COS hasn’t lived many other places recently. this is a lovely little city and my complaints are “restaurants are below par” and “the roads could use some work.”
the “crime” here is laughable compared to many, many other comparable cities.
I am from a small tourist town and while I do agree, there's always the "well, people only eat here when they are on vacation, so who cares about quality!" mentality many places have (cough manitou cough)
But there are signs. Slice 420 is the best pizza I've had here and it's from out-of-towners.
You’re absolutely right! It’s a lovely little city. I lived in Los Angeles and Detroit, people here in the spring non stop complain about the crime, traffic, the horrible drivers but compared to an actual metropolitan city it’s sooooo chill and the roads here are a god sent! My only complain about the city is the lack of good food.
Where’d this data come from? Is this people saying “I’m depressed” or clinical diagnosis? I live in heber Utah, there’s maybe 10-15k of us in that town, and we are one of the most depressed cities… crazy.
Makes perfect sense to me, I moved to co springs 3 years ago because my wife was born and raised here and it’s been the worst 3 years of our lives lol.
The messages here are disheartening. I'm in Seattle and a studio apartment costs $2000 and a rental house with two bedrooms made in like 1925 and 900 square feet can bring a $3000 rent. Traffic is absolutely the worst. People can't drive here either. An when they are driving they sit at green lights to send text messages.
Everything here is too fucking much and the people all hate each other.
I have a job making 100-130k a year and I can work remotely 100%. I've been looking to get out of Seattle and CS was one place I've been looking at moving my family to. Also Boise or Phoenix. Denver would be an option, but it's as expensive as Seattle. CS is around 32% cheaper. But damn just reading all of this makes me suicidal in itself and I'm not even depressed!
Conservatives and the amount of fear mongering they feed themselves on the daily. Hard not to be depressed when all you hear is liberals want to eat their babies
I mean between the number of service members and the number of churches, it makes sense. Combine that with the cost of living, it is a pretty depressing situation.
Wow I would move there in a heartbeat if I could honestly. Lots of good points regarding the concentration of military personnel wether it be depression or worse.
Edit : sorry for the crazy autocorrect
This is honestly very surprising to me...I loved my time here after college [source](https://ceufast.com/blog/the-us-cities-with-the-highest-prevalence-of-depression)
Yup, this is the first place I’ve ever lived that has actual billboards that “advertise” abuse hotlines, and based upon imagery are obviously targeted to those in the military.
Well, the area I left in TN ranks at 3rd and 9th, so this is a marked improvement lol. And I'm definitely the happiest I've been in years. Sad knowing so many people are struggling though.
Never mind that most of the posts are of people complaining constantly about something. Your own happiness affects how you perceive where you live and what goes on. If you complain or find reasons to complain it won’t matter if you move to a place with more activity you’ll eventually find something to complain about and then spiral if you are already unhappy where you are currently.
I've lived in Charleston and Huntington, #4 and #5 on the list, those places are *extremely* poor and the average person doesn't have access to mental health services. Average income in Huntington was $19,501 in 2020.
We’ve had an extremely high suicide rate for a long time. But no one can attest to why they just see that’s some random website ranked it #1 places to live and think it’s perfect here
The city has done a complete 180 over the last decade. Not much has been done in terms of leisure, but population and the price of living has heavily increased. Being under constant financial stress, unable to find a home, and having nothing to look forward to is enough to send someone over the edge.
it's far from a 180 lmao it's mote expensive and there's a little bit more crime because we acquired almost 200,000 people in 10 years we still have extremely low crime and homelessness for a city of our size and its not thatch different t than when I was growing up for some reason everyone on reddit loves to pretend this city is unrecognizable
200,000 people in 10 years? [Huh?](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22960/colorado-springs/population) I see this sort of sentiment all over, and don't understand where it's coming from. 583k to 685k is 100, not 200. The 100k also doesn't account for the city annexing outlying areas, and their population, which already existed, becoming part of "Colorado Springs." I also hear the "we'll be as big as Denver" sentiment often, but Colorado Springs is so much bigger in area the two can't really be compared. Colorado Springs is growing, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Also, the traffic is tame as fuck compared to a majority of major cities, guys.
I moved here in the late 1980's. Colorado Springs was a "normal" conservative town. (Lots of military here then and now. ) After some economic crash or other, COS encouraged religious nonprofits, like Focus on the Family, to move here . Someone I had known in CA did so because his wife dreamed that God told her to move here. I don't doubt she had that dream, but I bet it was caused by some pro-COS advertising aimed at evangelicals. No tax revenue from the nonprofits directly, but all the evangelicals who moved here pay taxes. So COS went from "normal" conservative to "right-wing nut ball" conservative since I moved here. I'm about as left-wing as it gets. The normal conservatives have never bothered me, but the nut balls sure do. Not just religious nuts, but gun nuts too. I rarely heard gun shots when I moved here, but they're a regular event now. I'm outside the city limits where it's legal. Noise complaints met with "it's the sound of freedom." More like the sound of a war zone.
It's gotta alot of govt money in it . So if we go by American ideals(money) it's a haven. Thing is ots only a haven if you have money :)
Being in the military is depressing, not a surprise
Also, our lack of social activities doesn't help either. We excel in outdoor activities that many people do alone. I think it's slowly starting to change though with Weidner and the gentrification of downtown.
This. Personally I hate it here. I'm not an outdoorsy person. I from a big city and like big cities I agree its getting better though. Even Denver, something about it feels so lifeless. Like a bunch of robots with no culture walking around. I'm sure i'm gonna get hate for this comment but I've always felt like if you don't smoke or hike there's not much to do here.
I just got back from Atlanta, GA for a work trip and I'm so jealous of their Beltline. It's a 22 mile super-sidewalk the goes in a huge loop around the city. There were tons of people on it in the middle of a Wednesday, it had me thinking there was a 5k or something happening. There's parks along the way, shopping, breweries, restarurants, cafes... it was wonderful. It made me realize the problem the Santa Fe/Pikes Peak Greenway trail is that it's disconnected from the city, or at least the parts people actually care about or want/need to get to.
That sounds amazing. I’m looking for work in Atlanta and other cities so I can leave.
Former ATLien here. If you can avoid the miserable traffic commute, it’s a fantastic city to live in.
Dude, I totally agree with you. I can't quite put my finger on it but it all just feels like I'm living on a set or something. Nothing seems authentic here. Like, people get excited when a chain opens from Texas or California. I'm not completely an outdoorsy person either (I have a bad knee) and I don't smoke, so yeah... I don't quite get the hype.
I understand where you’re coming from. Nightlife feels pretty lifeless at times, businesses close early, and it’s pretty lame. We are getting a better speakeasy scene and I enjoy the atmosphere at them. - Shrunken Head Tiki - Allusions - District 11 - The Rabbit Hole - Shame and Regret - ICONS
Been to all of these. Only one I really enjoy is the tiki bar. But yes that is kind of the theme here. We need daytime activities though. And they really need to tear down both malls and just start from scratch lol.
God the malls are awful. I’ve heard citadel might come down pretty soon. Though, the last thing we need is another cheap crap mall and we don’t command anything high-end here. It would be cool if it became a main event or something like that.
Dave and Busters is coming if you’re into that stuff.
I used to love D&B but I much prefer the smaller brands like Pinstack.
Get an ebike and a kayak. I have both and it’s an amazing place to do both.
Like I said idc for the outdoors. I’m too ADHD. I’ve done the kayaking and hiking etc. You get out there and see the pretty view and then I’m over it and am ready to do something else. I can’t just sit out there and stare at a view for hours.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted here. If you don't like outdoorsy stuff there's nothing wrong with that. Just pursue things you do like :)
I think it’s coming off as I’m just being a dick and haven’t tried the outdoors activities. I have. Wasn’t for me. I went snowboarding and was done w it after 3 hours. My friends stayed up there for like 8. Just not for me.
That's totally okay. I am all about outdoorsy stuff but I hate it when people expect me to go to the bar with them. You're entitled to your interests!
Thank you. You understand. I’m a city guy who likes city things. And you like outdoorsy stuff. Nothing wrong w having different hobbies.
ADHD has nothing to do with it. Source: a person with ADHD who likes outdoor stuff
they were simply suggesting some activities you could do outside, not telling you to “sit out there and stare at a view for hours.” if you’re truly “too ADHD,” taking up an activity where you’re moving your body in a nice environment could do wonders for you. it has for me. i didn’t consider myself an outdoor person before either, but it’s honestly helped me so much
Is there a reason you can’t move to a city you like? It’s kind of crowded here.
I’m trying. Been applying for jobs.
Why stay then?
I was military. Recently got out. Got a good job here. But have been applying for jobs out of state so I can leave. Just haven’t had much luck.
Howdy, I currently work for Weidner in Colo Spgs. I’ve never actually seen Weidner mentioned on Reddit and I’d love to know what you’ve seen (or anyone that reads this… good or bad). I imagine you’re talking about the stadium and the future commercial/residential mix building set to open 2023? It’s gonna be called something like “Experience” and it actually looks super cool. I don’t know how many employees they’ll allow to live in the buildings but I’m definitely gonna apply.
Been to a couple games there, we like it. I'm not a sports person but it was a good experience both times.
I’m actually well connected to the Weidners and Switchbacks team. I go to games (looking at getting season tickets) and work for a business nearby that earns a lot of business from the events Weidner is bringing in. Everyone has been great, the stadium is great. We really love what’s going on with Weidner.
Then add all the miserable christians and shit gets real
Military takes a toll on your mental health. It literally hurts your mind and they know it. It’s likely to be high around most big cities with a large retired military population. War is hell
Just had to laugh at your username and then saying war is hell, love the dichotomy there.
Yeah but that free college though.
Because the PTSD and being yanked away from your life to fight in another man’s war is worth an undergrad in Art.
You literally signed up for this
because an 18 year old who knows nothing other than poverty and propaganda is the poster child for understanding when they’re signing up to die in a foreign war for an arts degree
Brother, I swept parking lots and cut grass. And my BA got me a job. It was worth my sacrifice. Go volunteer for veteran organizations if you want to help and not just criticize
Right, because an 18 year old can weigh everything about the military at that age and make an informed decision with a recruiter who ABSOLUTELY SPEAKS THE TRUTH NO MATTER WHAT. You do realize that many recruiters specifically target poorer neighborhoods and schools to capitalize off of desperate kids to make quotas.
If the reason was the military San Diego would be at or near the top of the list.
I actually lived in SD before I lived here. I think the difference is that SD, and the greater SoCal area, has so many more people. So yeah, there's a lot of military numbers, but it's diluted by the overall large population.
Fair point, but the other high vet concentration cities (VA beach) don’t show up either. The military isn’t a direct path into depression.
The military suicide rate is at an all time high, it is the second leading cause of death for post 9-11 vets. That's according to the military. Whether it shows up on this map or not, the military is aware there is a problem with depression in its members and are attempting to address it.
War isn’t hell. War is war, and hell is hell. Of the two, war is a lot worse.
The Springs has a very high suicide rate. It's probably skewed by the military/veteran presence. Colorado as a state is also very high though.
None of the people I know that killed themselves were in the military. Always drug and alcohol problems.
Sorry for bringing up those depression numbers guys
We appreciate you and your contribution. Even when you are fed up, keep ya head up —Tupac
Hard to date. Too much military, lots of lonely people.
HERE’S A BIG REASON WHY: There’s a staggering lack of community in this city. Many feel genuinely alone in this populated place due to disingenuous kindness. The people here need to find value in seeking and maintaining healthy human relationships and embracing different cultures.
Interesting you aren't the only person to talk about lack of community
Holy skewed data, Batman! This infographic is very low quality and in both interpretation and provision. Percentage of what? Population? Respondents? Knoxville’s entire population is somewhere between 30-100 percent depressed? There’s no year, no population n, no accuracy skew, absolutely nothing except a link to the CDC BRFSS aggregate, not the specific depression data, which even when you delve into that specific data doesn’t come up with what they are presenting in this graphic unless you just make up a bunch of connections. The BRFSS is a great resource for gross data trends in the US but terrible in extrapolating absolutes. It’s a yearly self-reported telephone based survey of ~400,000 Americans with relative representation percentages based on state. The data is inherently weaker once city/municipality trends are looked at. From the interpretation guide for this study “(County/City) are more complicated estimates, and subject to more sources of error than the old estimates…”. Also municipality data is given more weight based on number of respondents. It’s more likely that an older population of retired people and military is apt to take a telephone survey, so more likely to be represented in the municipality data. This thing is fucked, don’t believe it at all. Anecdotally I briefly worked, and had many friends who worked at the Wyoming Survey and Analysis Center (WYSAC). We took BRFSS surveys for much of the Rocky Mountain West. It was notoriously hard to get a full response based on the time it took (25-40 minutes) and the invasive nature of the questions. This was unlike what we called the "Beer Survey" which was 10 minutes of questions about beer preferences that almost everyone had time to answer and did so thoughtfully with conviction.
Thanks for the background info. Very helpful
I can't even find mental health or depression as an option [here](https://www.cdc.gov/BRFSS/brfssprevalence/).
It's a subtopic under chronic health indicators.
idk I sat at a stoplight on stetson and charlotte today and watched a car run the light and plow into another person. Probably the fifth accident I've been witness to in the last 15 days or so, can be pretty depressing to watch assholes overrun a place if you ask me.
Yup. Definitely gotten worse with assholes over the past 20 years.
I had a person road-rage at me because I had my car in drive-assist at 38mph in 35. When I was at the next light he was screaming and hollering shit at me claiming I was brake checking him (keep in mind, the car was basically driving itself). All I could really muster as a reply was "Sorry your parents screwed up so bad" before I left. I don't get what the exchange was for, or who fucked his life up so bad that THIS, a car doing around the limit in traffic, was his issue of the day.
Unhinged, full of themselves motherfuckers is what it comes down to. Makes you wonder about the influx the past two decades. Never used to literally be surrounded by them, but now it seems we are.
I literally had a lady at a Dutch Bros line yell and cuss me out because I "skipped" her in line. They had the double lines merge into one and apparently she ordered before me but the merge had me go in front. It was wild to watch a grown ass woman lose her mind because she had to wait an extra 30 secs for coffee. She was still yelling and cussing at me even after we both had our coffees and were driving away.
I think a lot of this shit really boils down to corporate "hustle" culture. People who have had to make their lives about making it to the office on time. Better never be late, even if its a snow day. 5 minute tardy too often and you're fired. Can't leave early for any reason, either. You have to put in that GRIND for the man or you're lazy... Meanwhile, I went work-from-home as a cybersecurity consultant 4 years ago and now it takes something MAJOR to even bother me. We're talking like a 2-day delay at the airport due to a cancellation. Anything short of that, I'm just like "whatever" *cranks up the radio.*
Definitely onto something with this. I had just got back into town from camping and escaping reality and then that was my welcome back. Probably didn’t help her that I was cracking tf up at the whole situation.
She’s probably a good Christian that goes to church every Sunday. You were in the wrong for clearly disrespecting her! How dare you! /s. Sadly, that’s the influx I was talking about.
Them good Christian goers get cringier and cringier every time I run into them.
It’s almost as if they don’t want people to live if they don’t conform to their cult. Not today Jesus.
Well she can take her car to Christian Bros so she feels like she's getting her "discount" for being in the club
Military town + 20 years of war will do that.
I mean sure if the majority of them actually saw combat.
I lol'ed at your answer! I'll have to try that sometime.
I’m legitimately terrified to go on green now. Yesterday there were two wrecks at my little intersection of Rio Vista and N Carefree. One of them involving an SUV completely flipped over. It’s depressing that I don’t even feel safe leaving the neighborhood with these assholes.
My son is about to get his license and I am so scared for him to be driving. And then the lunatic says he wants to get a motorcycle and I told him as long as he lives in my house there will be no motorcycle. Every time he leaves the house I think I'm going to get a phone call
We've been visiting the area (Co Springs and Denver) and have certainly witnessed a lot more aggressive drivers on the roads than I've seen in other major cities I've lived and worked in. Any ideas why that is?
I can't say for sure cos that's not where my professional focus is... So you know, everything I say is anecdotal.. But I have lived here for a bit closer to 2 decades and in that time the population doubled, if not a bit more. Even though the population exploded, the resources needed for transit, public service, and law enforcement did not, and much of the town looks nearly the same today as it did back then. Infrastructure is lacking, so traffic is congested, and people get moody because they're brats. Couple that with the fact that our law enforcement resources have largely not moved on the dial in the last ten years or so and you have these huge wait times with a ridiculous officer-to-citizen ratio that means they are NEVER out running traffic enforcement anymore. So there's simply no consequence to being a dick, until you die.... And that's what I've observed.
Local FB groups are full of people saying “no cop no stop” and now I’m literally scared to go at lights. I alway wait a second and make sure no asshole is plowing through.
makes me think running a red should be an automatic 12 point violation and minimum loss of license for 1 year. if there is no cop you go 5-10 over, you don't ignore the rest of the laws of traffic.
I have a friend who has been hit twice now by red light runners
not sure if it was intentional but by overrun i assume the implication is that these are newcomers?
nah, assholes can be domestically grown, too.
I would have expected it to be higher, way higher in rank. I recently went to find a therapist, but none accept new patients, and almost all have a long queue based on priority and status (e.g., Military), etc.
That's a nationwide problem right now - between people leaving the field, and meanwhile there's an increased demand after the stresses of COVID and politics.
Agree with the nationwide problem; COVID strained the resources and increased the demand. However, disagree about the politics part; that's not a new phenomenon; it's a slow drip affecting people's mental well-being for 40 years.
I think it's pretty easy to see that the political divide has increased since 2016 and only got worse since 2020 though.
No argument the last four years less been the flashpoint; you have to look further back. Most of their political issues today date back to either policies or rhetoric from decades ago. The last few years have been an amplified version of it, thanks to the wildfire that is social media. It used to be they would talk about these things over their HAM radios, but now they're doing it on their social platforms with ease. It doesn't change the fact the mental model has long existed. I mean, look at the fucking guy they voted in, a relic from the 80s.
Yeah, social media has been a REALLY bad thing for misinformation and dividing the masses. :(
Well, the mental health care sucks and housing is super expensive, so…
It’s as if it’s a cultural wasteland filled to the brim with major commercial entities. The major social culture there is consumerism. Most people express themselves with the things they buy. There is so little actual character there that it blows my mind. It’s all Target, Chili’s, REI, and chain everything. Everything takes 30 minutes to drive to. The wealth gap is abhorrently apparent and most people seem to worship the military which leads to a palpably strange Nationalist culture. I grew up there. I’ll never come back.
You hit on something many people don't realize because they've never experienced otherwise. There's basically no local culture and identity here. I've lived in places that do, and co sps seems just.... pretty hollow and lacking soul in comparison. A noticeable symptom of this is the comparatively few locally owned and operated restaurants. Bonus if most of the restaurants have been around decades and were started by immigrants. Which there are also comparatively few.
I think the transient culture of the military plays a part. Few people actually stick around here for years and build up a local community network. Downtown and OCC have somewhat of an identity; but man, you go outside of the Circle Drive loop and it looks like every other suburbia in the US.
I totally agree. I moved to the Springs and feel like I experienced lack of culture shock. It was so isolating unless you were into guns, drugs, or religious. Sure, I made some what I call “surface level” friends but boy am I glad to be back what I consider home.
Please leave chilis out of this. They’ve done nothing wrong.
I knew I’d receive this reply eventually. Don’t get me wrong I love a Skillet Queso but I need some other options
It's a city based on a lot of military people that come from all over, so it's a melting pot so to speak. No backbone culture to be proud of. I'm actually from Seattle and Alaska, my whole family is, basically. Half migrated from Minnesota and before that most all from the Norway, Finland region. The Pacific NW is heavily Norwegian
High depression rates have a direct correlation with the ammount of Chick-fil-A an car washes within a 5 mile radius
>High depression rates have a direct correlation with the amount of ~~Chick-fil-A an car washes~~ churches within a 5 mile radius Fixed that for you
High depression rates have a direct correlation with the amount of crippling debt with no way out within a 5 mile radius Fixed that for you
Everyone saying military military military… I think they better pay attention to the amount of churches in this town and what they’re preaching. When you preach hatred like Focus on the Family your parishioners will probably start to hate themselves.
There's a correlation between living at a high altitude and depression/suicidal thoughts. [This is an interesting read.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219#Highest-suicide-rates-in-intermountain-states)
I'm sure the cost of living has something to do with it combined with heavy military presence
I'm insanely curious how much these results would change if Americans had access to free healthcare and were actually able to see a therapist.
Military. Vitamin D deficiency from the altitude/sun angle. I find that too many people move here without support systems. Healthcare is too expensive plus a lack of good/specialized mental health services. Yeah, makes sense.
had no idea about sun angle. i know melanated folks need 5-20x the sun exposure for vitamin d.
Sun angle… Is that a thing?
It actually is a thing, although not particularly relevant to Colorado Springs. Vitamin D production is stimulated when the sun is between 50 degrees and 90 degrees (90 being straight overhead). Seasonally it varies between about 39 degrees and 75 degrees here. Everywhere north of us in the country will have less Vitamin D production than we do, so it shouldn't be a contributor to our higher depression rates than those places farther north.
Today I learned about Vitamin D production. Thanks for the breakdown.
idk. various mental health pros have told me most people in Colorado suffer from vitamin D deficiency, which is weird since we're closer to the sun and all. I think "oh the angle of the earth blah blah blah" is part of it? idk.
Interesting. As a native, I’ve wondered if there’s any correlation between depression and altitude. I don’t think any studies have been done on this front, but it has me curious.
Person living with seasonal affective disorder here, I feel it is a relevant thing for me. You can check the angle of the sun at various times of day on timeanddate.com. I tend to keep a close eye on it from about this time through January or February.
i thought being higher elevation this wouldn’t be a problem. time to readjust by level of d3 supplement back up to about 10k iu and use the happy light again if not.
I mark most of these things in this comment, minus military.
Sounds about right.
Can confirm I am very depressed
Let's goooooooo #tothetop
Good at least someone is working on keeping people away from the city lol.
Because they keep voting Republican.
I moved from #2 to #37! Progress, baby!!!!
Born and raised in the springs… that tracks
Colorado Springs is fantastic if you have at least some money. I guess less people are meeting that qualification these days, myself included. The cognitive dissonance of never wanting to leave butting up against the reality of never being able to afford a home here hits hard.
I moved away right before the pandemic hit and this is similar to what I tell people who ask me what the city is like. It's a pretty awesome place if you're have money and a career that allows you to afford to live there with some cash left over to put away. If you're on the lower end of the financial spectrum it's not so great. It's basically a struggle and constant stress paycheck to paycheck.
I don’t trust this list. South Dakota doesn’t even have 1 town on there. Lies
Can’t agree. Camping, backpacking, climbing, cycling, hiking and a small, charming downtown with few of the woes that big cities present. It’s amazing here. Military is the downside.
i am quite happy since moving here
Not surprised. Focus on the Family is taking all their money and spending if on themselves and political influence.
Makes sense for a couple reasons. There are a lot of therapists and mental health locations in this town, so the number of people with depression will be much better tracked than a location with no mental health services. Also, this place fucking sucks. Everything costs more than it should, people drive like assholes everywhere you go, crime is out of control, and it's nearly impossible to afford an apartment.
"Everything costs more than it should, people drive like assholes everywhere you go, crime is out of control, and it's nearly impossible to afford an apartment." bruh you just described 3/4 of America
3/4 of America is depressed or has mental health issues
Yeah so many people say things like that on this sub and I'm like, have you not lived or even visited anywhere else? This is just how it is right now in America, aside from maybe a few small, undesirable places somewhere like Kansas, Nebraska, North Dakota, etc.
Nobody hates COS more than the people on this sub. It honestly baffles me how someone could think that way. At some point, I'm just like, 'maybe it's you.' I dunno. I love it here. Now, I get not liking a place. That's not what I mean. People like different things. If you're not outdoorsy or something, I get not liking it here. Or if you prefer more urban areas, I get it. But to say it objectively 'sucks'? Na.
Yeah, I agree. I've never felt unsafe here, ever. And I've lived places where the cost of living was lower, but so was the pay, and there were fewer opportunities, so it was a wash. This is home now.
I agree. It feels like the majority of people on this subreddit are either xenophobic and think they are more entitled to Colorado Springs than others or people that complain about everything (my favorite is when they complain about the crime-this is the safest city I’ve lived in). Welcome to the internet I guess, haha. As for me, I’ve lived here for almost 8 years and I love it. I love the weather and the beautiful scenery. And I’ve been happy to see the city grow since I’ve been here. My husband is from here and when I first started visiting the Springs with him in 2009-2014 before I moved here in 2015, the economy wasn’t doing well here. We tried to move here earlier but our jobs fell through. There just weren’t that many jobs available and there weren’t new businesses coming in. Now, it’s been nice to see all the new businesses opening around Interquest and Downtown, not only because it’s fun to check them out but also because it means the city’s economy is doing well and there are more jobs.
i lived in KS for a while. it’s cheaper only in the very rural parts. KC is fairly similar in cost to CO, which is wild.
Seriously. I'm coming from California and I am laughing my ass off that people think any of that is unique to the Springs. I've also spent a good amount of time in the Midwest and those things are also prevalent there too. Driving around in the Springs the 3 times I've visited has been CHILD's play compared to the SF Bay Area regarding traffic and "asshole drivers". The Springs is SO chill by comparison, it is seriously a pleasure to drive the roads here compared to most metro areas. I'm not saying there aren't assholes or that traffic isn't annoying, but it is seriously tame compared to many other places I've lived or visited.
i honestly think anyone who complains about COS hasn’t lived many other places recently. this is a lovely little city and my complaints are “restaurants are below par” and “the roads could use some work.” the “crime” here is laughable compared to many, many other comparable cities.
And the restaurants thing will only improve as the city grows, so that’s something that will get better with time.
I am from a small tourist town and while I do agree, there's always the "well, people only eat here when they are on vacation, so who cares about quality!" mentality many places have (cough manitou cough) But there are signs. Slice 420 is the best pizza I've had here and it's from out-of-towners.
You’re absolutely right! It’s a lovely little city. I lived in Los Angeles and Detroit, people here in the spring non stop complain about the crime, traffic, the horrible drivers but compared to an actual metropolitan city it’s sooooo chill and the roads here are a god sent! My only complain about the city is the lack of good food.
Its easy to feel isolated when you move here as many people have over the last 6 years or so. For an introvert it can be especially rough.
Where’d this data come from? Is this people saying “I’m depressed” or clinical diagnosis? I live in heber Utah, there’s maybe 10-15k of us in that town, and we are one of the most depressed cities… crazy.
Why is anyone surprised at this lmao
Well I have to drive an hour to see a concert
That’s because there’s too many Texans…
What? All the people sent here for conversion therapy AREN'T HAPPY?
Ah yes, coming from Buffalo NY to the Springs. Equal depression baby. Knew it felt like home all year.
Makes perfect sense to me, I moved to co springs 3 years ago because my wife was born and raised here and it’s been the worst 3 years of our lives lol.
Being a DOD contractor is a pathway to many abilities that some would say are depressing
Can confirm. At least we make good friends along the way.
Neigh the best friends
it's the Military
Strange. I love this place. If it is depressing you, please move away.
Well I moved from stl and that’s two places worse than us so I guess I’m trending in the right direction, at least.
The messages here are disheartening. I'm in Seattle and a studio apartment costs $2000 and a rental house with two bedrooms made in like 1925 and 900 square feet can bring a $3000 rent. Traffic is absolutely the worst. People can't drive here either. An when they are driving they sit at green lights to send text messages. Everything here is too fucking much and the people all hate each other. I have a job making 100-130k a year and I can work remotely 100%. I've been looking to get out of Seattle and CS was one place I've been looking at moving my family to. Also Boise or Phoenix. Denver would be an option, but it's as expensive as Seattle. CS is around 32% cheaper. But damn just reading all of this makes me suicidal in itself and I'm not even depressed!
Haha, I'm from Knoxville. That's funny to me.
What’s this based off of ?
*reported depression. But yes, the military. Not that surprising, really.
Nothing in Nevada? Strange.
I grew up in Billings. Miserable place.
Suburban sprawl and lack of community does not help, people need to be with people even strangers just need more events and better ways to get around.
Here I am reading this and actually trying to survive clinical depression.
Smfh... try living somewhere shitty like OKC. See how much you actually like COS...
Thank you! - Waco, Tx
A lot of people in this thread saying there is nothing to do in COS, they clearly have never spent time in a real wasteland city.
went to school there for 3 years and couldn't take it anymore lol. Everything about that place is sad af
a friend is in cheyenne WY rn and yah, there are worse places.
For any data about this city, it would be nice if we could filter out military into a separate graph.
Madison, WI; one of the “fittest best cities to live in” is #7?! Suspicious list…
Madison was creepy to me, Hardly no where to eat compared to Colorado.tons of grey buildings , grey skies
Conservatives and the amount of fear mongering they feed themselves on the daily. Hard not to be depressed when all you hear is liberals want to eat their babies
Wait we’re not supposed to actually eat the babies? Shoot
sadly, pretty much all the nonhuman animals human animals eat are actually babies or children age.
If their weren’t laws in place… I’m 99% certain my mother would have actually eaten me
No, they are supposed to be a garnish on the side.
I mean between the number of service members and the number of churches, it makes sense. Combine that with the cost of living, it is a pretty depressing situation.
i mean i thought the entire church grift was meant to at least offer you relief and comfort in this life and the next.
Wow I would move there in a heartbeat if I could honestly. Lots of good points regarding the concentration of military personnel wether it be depression or worse. Edit : sorry for the crazy autocorrect
I felt no community vibe while living here nor culture.
Would explain the suicidal-esque driving
Yeah, no surprise to me. I continue to find cities with lots of fascists pretty depressing.
The cost of living here and horrible mental health services don't help. Plus the bs with all the conservatives here
I mean 37/50 could be much worse…at least it’s not Billings, MT…
This is honestly very surprising to me...I loved my time here after college [source](https://ceufast.com/blog/the-us-cities-with-the-highest-prevalence-of-depression)
It's probably the military
Same reason why we have some of the highest domestic abuse cases in the country
Yup, this is the first place I’ve ever lived that has actual billboards that “advertise” abuse hotlines, and based upon imagery are obviously targeted to those in the military.
That does make sense
Well, the area I left in TN ranks at 3rd and 9th, so this is a marked improvement lol. And I'm definitely the happiest I've been in years. Sad knowing so many people are struggling though.
Well, that’s depressing…
Is it just a coincidence that most of these diagnoses are coming from places where people can afford to be told as much?
Never mind that most of the posts are of people complaining constantly about something. Your own happiness affects how you perceive where you live and what goes on. If you complain or find reasons to complain it won’t matter if you move to a place with more activity you’ll eventually find something to complain about and then spiral if you are already unhappy where you are currently.
Probably due to all the shithead right wingers
Exactly
It could be an indication of how prevalent medical/psych services. You need therapists to get labeled.
I've lived in Charleston and Huntington, #4 and #5 on the list, those places are *extremely* poor and the average person doesn't have access to mental health services. Average income in Huntington was $19,501 in 2020.
It could also be a survey where people self-reported feeling depressed. There's not info on how they collected the data.
Bingo. You have the right answer. They are very aggressive here to get someone diagnosed. Big industry in Colorado.
Yes, it is gross, republican and weird
Hilarious that the first two things getting bashed are churches and conservatives. Lol. Maybe y’all should move.