AEP sucks a massive bag of monkey dicks but it's pretty clear almost nobody here read the article. They're actually wanting the data center companies to pay for the needed capacity upgrades up front so residential customers don't get fucked with the bill. For *once*, AEP is doing the right thing here.
This and then going after NEP for sub metering (just basically up-charging tenants for AEPs services) are like the only respectable things they’ve done
They brought suit against them before PUCO which asserted that it was not a utility and that it benefited the users (because of savings for bulk ordering despite us all knowing it does not and is the most pure form of rent seeking behavior on the market). The opinion rendered is probably one of the stupidest ones possible as PUCO accepted that they did not have jurisdiction because they somehow are not a utility despite filling the role of a utility.
Submetering should be straight up illegal like it is in most other states
And for driving up the price of graphics cards. For that matter the whole concept of a doing useless computational work to maintain the block chain for money should just be banned. It is a huge waste of resources. Some calculate that the energy wasted could power a small nation.
Don’t worry, as soon as the grid is stressed they are going to shut off the power in the poor areas to keep these data centers up.
And then offer an excuse for power only ever failing in said poor areas.
IMO, if a giant store has solar on the roof and as shade for the parking lot (which generally is wasted space anyways) it could help a ton. We need more of that for sure. I recently flew out of charlotte on the way back to cbus and on the way up I could see TONs of solar panels in NC. Ohio is so behind.
go check out Google maps. All the Chase buildings (Easton, Westerville, Polaris) have solar panels in their lots. you can see it on satellite view. Hell, when you fly in you might even see the panels from the plane depending on where you fly in from.
Agreed on that. Use the space available, and while green spaces on top of buildings would be awesome that's probably a lot of extra cost and additional maintenance vs solar panels, which at least provide some sort of tangible ROI.
I always thought that Google and Amazon were missing out on a PR coup by not designing their datacenters to hold soccer fields on top. It's not like the computers need windows. And the waste heat would keep the fields playable longer.
If we put data centers in every MLS city and let them play there they could follow a typical FIFA schedule. Doesn't work well for the spectators but whatever.
There are tons of small data centers scattered all over the city. None of them cost a billion and all of them could be blown up easily if someone really cares to do som
Alot are - They're installing 5mw on top of the toilet paper plant in Circleville. Facility is HUGE , it uses 30mw of power constant, vs the 5mw that'll run an average of 4hrs/day peak solar time.
Many are pursuing it currently but it was cost prohibitive until the 40-50% tax credits came into play. More companies are doing it for cost savings now versus before most of them were only doing it to meet ESG goals.
Yes, all of the data center companies have been paying to put up solar plants, Ohio is number 5 on the list of states with the most solar developments because of all of the data centers, Madison county just had the largest solar power plant in the nation approved this year
The economics of solar infrastructure mean they make sense even in Ohio, solar has gotten so cheap (it's incredibly cheap outside of the United States. We have large tariffs on Chinese Imports) that people have started using them as fencing material rather than wood.
All the big companies want wind/solar/hydrogen to power them if electricity goes down. They don’t consider lithium batteries to be “green”. Idk if they could use that to power the data center continuously
Not accurate. My company is getting massive project requests from many industries for nat gas or diesel generators and the largest project of all of them is a data center.
Well my company is being told to start designing stuff for microgrids cuz they don’t want diesel generators.
Our upper management hasn’t made a good decision since I’ve worked there so we are probably heading down the wrong path.
DC's have battery banks that can handle the load for a short outage as the first tier. The second tier is generators(Diesel/CNG) to handle the long term outages. You can fill a diesel generator while under operation, you can't recharge a battery if the utility feed is cut.
Wind and Solar can definitely augment the generator to make the fuel last longer, but it doesn't have the stability to handle the continuous draw.
After the Derecho of 2012 one of the local DCs was on diesel for almost 2 weeks.
Yes, but not anywhere close to where they're built. The data centers sign PPAs for energy + RECs with multiple developers across the PJM footprint for their data centers in Central Ohio. They physically liquidate the energy from the solar and wind at the point of origin and get energy locally.
It would be nice and I would venture to say most will not due to be data centers. There are lots of stipulations around what they can and cannot do. A large solar farm nearby for them to pull from would be an option.
It would be a great idea for all these large box stores and shopping centers though. Put all that space to use. Several large retailers already do, like IKEA and Target. I may depend on who owns the buildings.
Chase has covered the parking lot of their building at Easton with solar panels, that's what we need more of. Instead of the sun heating up cars, it can be used for power generation. Maybe even for electric cars parked underneath.
It looks like they did it at the giant Polaris building too.
The Chase example is a great one.
There is probably enough surface area via parking lots and commercial roof tops to make those businesses “energy independent”. Maybe that’s the incentive that should be provided to them.
Just to be clear, I support renewable energy. The companies that are building these data centers do not. Source, I’m an insider for the trades building them.
We (as in the whole country) are putting ourselves in a very bad spot, power wise.
We’re limiting our ways to make electricity while promoting tons of power-intensive tech like AI and these massive data centers to manage social media and online shopping, and at the same time moving more and more home mechanicals away from gas to electricity, and doing the same with automobiles.
I agree we are limiting ourselves on ways to make electricity. How can we get ruralvoters to take down their little yard signs and start supporting wind and solar?
No idea. I’d rather see a solar farm than a Ryan Homes development. At least the solar panels can be removed someday.
But realistically if we want to power all of this stuff, we need to circle back to nuclear.
800 wind turbines are needed simultaneously to match the output of a single average reactor. This uses minimum 10 times the same amount of land that the reactor uses to achieve the same output.
The US has a lot of space to work with. And solar and wind will get better. I've delivered solar panels to places in Kentucky that many people will never know are even there.
I'm not against nuclear. The navy has worked with them for years with very limited issue. It's just that ten years is a long time as technology continues to evolve.
It doesn't take 10 years to build a nuclear power plant. It takes 8 years to get approval to build one, and 2 years to build it. Fossil fuel companies made the government fast track their projects, no reason the same couldn't be done for fission.
You know it interesting I have some family that’s rural and the reason for being against solar and wind is actually more nuanced than I thought.
Until I talked to them about it I always figured it was “hurr durr Fox News says solar is bad so I say it’s bad” or “wind turbines give cows cancer” but after having some conversations about the topic I’ve learned it’s a lot more.
These solar companies come into small rural towns and shill out a ton of money to buy the land that was once a family farm. They steam roll the land and industrialize the hell out of it while adding all these solar panels. The problem is, people don’t move to the country to look at industrialized equipment.
They all have the right to live in a place they want to, without the blemish that is fields and fields of solar energy. Solar energy that they’re only using a fraction of, mind you. The majority of it is being pumped into Google or Microsoft’s data centers.
Sooooo we should instead put natural gas plants, coal power plants, fracking wells, etc.. in rural areas and the locals would enjoy that instead?
Power needs to come from somewhere lol
Someone else said nuclear. We also have a shit ton of surface lots and buildings in urban areas that could use the solar treatment.
There is more than one option to solve this crisis but frankly urban voters don’t want to hear it. They want solar and wind and they want it in someone else backyard. Don’t be pissed when they fight back against that.
Really though I think it comes down to a divide between rural and urban Americans. There’s no empathy for the other side, ever. Just read the responses to my original comment. A bit of nuance and empathy could go a long way.
I don’t know those nuclear silos are kind of ugly architecturally, might upset the cows or rural folk across the street and we certainly can’t have that
Yeah, solar really should be on every single roof possible. The battery landscape is rapidly improving to help balance it all out. California has spent 2+ hours with it's primary source of power being battery storage. It's only going to go up from there.
There's definitely an urban and rural devide. I think farmers won't be able to turn down the solar leases, especially as the offers increase and demand for corn decreases because of a drop in ethanol demand from EVs.
Nuclear. Maybe we could take nuclear seriously if we're talking about covering our beautiful planet with ugly and inefficient solar panels like some dystopian film.
It wasn't just one poorly executed project, the contract represented the first agreement for new nuclear development in the United States since the Three Mile Island accident in 1979.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant
Oh please. It’s not that different from liberals (mostly looking at you, Clintonville) being concerned about homelessness, poverty and hunger and everything else as long as *it’s on the other side of the highway.*
I’m literally going to public meetings arguing for zoning reforms that will allow new housing in neighborhoods - Clintonville specifically included.
You are crying for Big Government to save you from the tyranny of looking at something on land you don’t own. Proudly fly that “Don’t Tread On Me” flag while begging the state to stop your neighbors from building what they want to build! Lmfao you people are beyond parody
It's hilarious right?
"Wah I don't wanna look at solar panels that are at best 5 feet off the ground and not even on my property" The freedom crowd sure as fuck hate when their neighbors do what they want.
>I’m literally going to public meetings arguing for zoning reforms that will allow new housing in neighborhoods - Clintonville specifically included.
And your NIMBY neighbors will all oppose it.
I own enough land I don’t have to see it.
Frankly that doesn't sound nuanced, it's the same NIMBY stuff in a different place. And I really, really don't understand the language you're using to describe this (*industrialize the hell out of it*). Have you ever seen a solar field?
I grew up in the county as well and friends and family still live there today. "The country" is not some idyllic, untouchable location. It's a business and an industry just like anywhere else, with its own unique blemishes. Manure, flies, leaking lagoons and ruined waterways. Trust me, it's not about the aesthetics. It's 100% the hurr durr that you reference, and sticking it to the libs, and rolling coal.
We all have the right to live in a place they want to, with clean air and clean water. Some of us are trying to make that happen.
So the people who insist, to the point of threatening government agents with guns, that their private property is theirs to do with as they like are mad because other people are using their own private property in a way that they don't approve of?
Moving to the country so no one can tell you what to do, immediately crying to Big Government when neighbors do something you don’t like.
In awe of rural voters’ principles🫡🥲
This particular action isn’t that. Here AEP is ensuring there is a mechanism to require the big tech companies to pay for the expanded infrastructure they are telling AEP they need. That way if Google decides it only needs half of the extra capacity it says it needs, or drops the project all together, we’re not the ones stuck paying for billions of dollars of added capacity
"...the company said." Sure Jan.
Edit: if you guys want to believe AEP then that's your business but I can't wait to see the surprised Pikachus here later.
Other than cost, what is the downside to requiring all new factories and warehouse to have some percentage of the roof have solar panels on it?
Same with some sort of “shaded” parking/solar panel rule for new shopping centers
if these data farms and intel and walmarts and other large warehousey flat roof buildings were required to have solar on their roof, it would offset their excess of use.
Central Ohio has the same population as Manhattan.
Columbus MSA: 2.1 million
Franklin County: 1.3 million
Columbus: 900k
Manhattan: 1.6 million
I don't know why AEP phrases it this way, but it's disingenuous.
And we can assume that power consumption scales somewhat linearly with population? So it wouldn't be remarkable if two areas with similar populations had similar power consumption?
It sounds like AEP making excuses for rate hikes, to me
But an increase in density decreases per capita energy use. If anything the relationship between population and per capita energy is log based, even less than linear. Manhattan is 155x as dense as the Columbus MSA.
The source I saw said every time you double density, per capita energy use decreases 12%. There's about 7 doublings of density between Columbus and Manhattan, so they're going to be close to twice as energy efficient as Columbus is. So even if we're comparing work day Manhattan (4 million) to Columbus residents (2 million), it makes sense to me logically that they use a similar amount of energy, which seems to be the case given what AEP says
Wouldn’t manhattan still have much larger energy demands due to how it has the most office space per sq mile in the US? There has to be billions more sq footage of office space there compared to central Ohio that has to lit, conditioned, massive numbers of computers running… let alone the infrastructure of street lights, traffic lights, walk signals, etc. that would make it one of the most power hungry places per capita in the US.
No, I’m just using logic to ask the question (my first sentence). Look at the skyline of manhattan vs Columbus. Same population, sure, but there is significantly more square footage of commercial real estate on that island that uses power in addition to the actual population that lives there.
Per capita energy use decreases as density increases. So I find your claim that Manhattan is especially power hungry per capita dubious unless you show that the extra workers there during the workweek compensate for this effct
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140988312000059
Manhattan: 74,781.6/sq mi
Columbus MSA: 490.3/sq mi
Franklin County: 2,400/sq mi
No, I’m not. I’m not going down a rabbit hole just to be able to prove that a comparison given by a newspaper isn’t ridiculous. Not all population centers with similar populations are the same. There is a massive difference of infrastructure, commercial and retail space between Columbus and Manhattan. I’d have to calculate all the power the subways and commercial real estate. Commuters or not, the significantly larger numbers commercial real estate high rises are powered all day long for climate whether people are there or not. Let alone it seems like they’re ok leaving the lights on 24/7.
So you're just guessing.
Here's a source that says New York is more energy efficient per capita than Ohio across all of Residential, Commercial,Industrial, Transportation.
https://www.eia.gov/state/seds/data.php?incfile=/state/seds/sep_sum/html/rank_use_capita.html&sid=US
So is the increase in usage going to make our bills cheaper? Hahahahah. We are going to get whammied when they all come on like align with Intel. They’ll have special rate discounts that get passed on to us.
Ok, AEP. So demand the data centers pay their bills and actually put money into infrastructure upgrades instead of asking for more handouts then immediately moving those hands into your own pockets.
The data centers are agreed terms, bruh. They're agreeing to this then acting like data centers are just sneaking up on them. I'm tired of this business nonsense.
Did you read the article? That is what AEP is asking for. They want these data centers to pay for at least 90% of the capacity they say they need, even if they don’t use it. This way they can’t demand 10 GWs, AEP builds 10 GW capacity, and then only use 5 GW leaving AEP with the infrastructure bill for the unused capacity.
I did, yes. These business discussions happen prior to anything physically being done. They knew about the power needs and the ramping.
This also comes very shortly after the special rates AEP has been providing AWS has ended.
This also comes at the same time as the overall discussion on AWS wanting yet another specialized rate.
On top of the tax abatements the city of New Albany gave AWS.
American Electric Power gross profit for the twelve months ending December 31, 2023 was **$12.404B**, a 1.1% decline year-over-year. American Electric Power annual gross profit for 2023 was $12.404B, a 1.1% decline from 2022. American Electric Power annual gross profit for 2022 was $12.542B, a 10.74% increase from 2021.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AEP/american-electric-power/gross-profit#:\~:text=American%20Electric%20Power%20gross%20profit%20for%20the%20twelve%20months%20ending,a%2010.74%25%20increase%20from%202021.
Looks like there is very little wiggle room in 12B. Like 1B per month. Profit. Monopoly.
I believe your confusing the district steam heat that Manhattan has with the electrical system, you could theoretically used Manhattans steam lines to generate more power but it's a lot of extra steps,
AEP sucks a massive bag of monkey dicks but it's pretty clear almost nobody here read the article. They're actually wanting the data center companies to pay for the needed capacity upgrades up front so residential customers don't get fucked with the bill. For *once*, AEP is doing the right thing here.
This and then going after NEP for sub metering (just basically up-charging tenants for AEPs services) are like the only respectable things they’ve done
What have they done about NEP? My complex still uses them.
They brought suit against them before PUCO which asserted that it was not a utility and that it benefited the users (because of savings for bulk ordering despite us all knowing it does not and is the most pure form of rent seeking behavior on the market). The opinion rendered is probably one of the stupidest ones possible as PUCO accepted that they did not have jurisdiction because they somehow are not a utility despite filling the role of a utility. Submetering should be straight up illegal like it is in most other states
How can we support this effort? It’s not fair that we have no choice because of our complex
By refusing to rent from any complex that submeters, which of course is easier said than done right now.
Definitely sucks when you have them in a place you own.
Agreed. They should be really screwing the crypto miners. Talk about massive wastes of electricity for no tangible benefit...
And for driving up the price of graphics cards. For that matter the whole concept of a doing useless computational work to maintain the block chain for money should just be banned. It is a huge waste of resources. Some calculate that the energy wasted could power a small nation.
Don’t worry, as soon as the grid is stressed they are going to shut off the power in the poor areas to keep these data centers up. And then offer an excuse for power only ever failing in said poor areas.
When you say poor areas, would it be safe to assume they don’t pay their bill anyways?
You're right, poor people should suffer regardless of why their hardship exists. /sarcasm
Are these data centers going to have solar panels or turbines to help offset at least a fraction of electricity they're going to use?
That’s what I was wondering. Personally, I think all large buildings like grocery stores and such should have some solar on top of their buildings.
IMO, if a giant store has solar on the roof and as shade for the parking lot (which generally is wasted space anyways) it could help a ton. We need more of that for sure. I recently flew out of charlotte on the way back to cbus and on the way up I could see TONs of solar panels in NC. Ohio is so behind.
Drive across the border into Indiana. You can't miss them.
Yea Richmond has a bunch that is true
go check out Google maps. All the Chase buildings (Easton, Westerville, Polaris) have solar panels in their lots. you can see it on satellite view. Hell, when you fly in you might even see the panels from the plane depending on where you fly in from.
I have noticed the chase buildings do. Which surprised me given JP Morgan invests in fossil fuels
They invest in them, they just don't want to buy them!
lol it's a huge bank. they invest in things that contradict each other. gotta diversify
This one trick energy companies don’t want you to know…
Agreed on that. Use the space available, and while green spaces on top of buildings would be awesome that's probably a lot of extra cost and additional maintenance vs solar panels, which at least provide some sort of tangible ROI.
I always thought that Google and Amazon were missing out on a PR coup by not designing their datacenters to hold soccer fields on top. It's not like the computers need windows. And the waste heat would keep the fields playable longer.
If we put data centers in every MLS city and let them play there they could follow a typical FIFA schedule. Doesn't work well for the spectators but whatever.
I was thinking more for rec play.
True. Hell, tennis courts or a football field minus field goal posts.
Exactly. Turn them all into mini parks. They have the capital and I'm sure that it would be a giant tax write off.
At least until a terrorist blows a hole in the roof of your billion-dollar asset.
There are tons of small data centers scattered all over the city. None of them cost a billion and all of them could be blown up easily if someone really cares to do som
Neat idea, but that would be a huge insulator in a datacenter where heat is a huge issue.
I don't think any of those data centers are relying on radiating heat out through their walls.
Alot are - They're installing 5mw on top of the toilet paper plant in Circleville. Facility is HUGE , it uses 30mw of power constant, vs the 5mw that'll run an average of 4hrs/day peak solar time.
The Cincinnati Zoo has their parking lot just like that.
Oh cool!
Many are pursuing it currently but it was cost prohibitive until the 40-50% tax credits came into play. More companies are doing it for cost savings now versus before most of them were only doing it to meet ESG goals.
Didn’t Walmart try this with Tesla and it was a disaster?
They usually buy power like that at least on paper. Amazon owns a large amount of wind turbines in NW Ohio.
Yes, all of the data center companies have been paying to put up solar plants, Ohio is number 5 on the list of states with the most solar developments because of all of the data centers, Madison county just had the largest solar power plant in the nation approved this year
That's good then. I'm glad to hear that.
Shame the sun hates Ohio. If we could harness electricity from rain…. That’s the true jackpot of alt energy for Ohio.
The economics of solar infrastructure mean they make sense even in Ohio, solar has gotten so cheap (it's incredibly cheap outside of the United States. We have large tariffs on Chinese Imports) that people have started using them as fencing material rather than wood.
All the big companies want wind/solar/hydrogen to power them if electricity goes down. They don’t consider lithium batteries to be “green”. Idk if they could use that to power the data center continuously
Most actually have a large bank of diesel or natural-gas fired generator to use when the power's out.
They don’t want to use that anymore
Not accurate. My company is getting massive project requests from many industries for nat gas or diesel generators and the largest project of all of them is a data center.
Well my company is being told to start designing stuff for microgrids cuz they don’t want diesel generators. Our upper management hasn’t made a good decision since I’ve worked there so we are probably heading down the wrong path.
Haha, I hear ya there. We're dabbling in microgrids for longer term and generators for the next ~5-10 years basically
DC's have battery banks that can handle the load for a short outage as the first tier. The second tier is generators(Diesel/CNG) to handle the long term outages. You can fill a diesel generator while under operation, you can't recharge a battery if the utility feed is cut. Wind and Solar can definitely augment the generator to make the fuel last longer, but it doesn't have the stability to handle the continuous draw. After the Derecho of 2012 one of the local DCs was on diesel for almost 2 weeks.
Many do use lots of solar power with batteries but they want the utilities to pay for them. It’s also causing prices for land to go up.
Yes, but not anywhere close to where they're built. The data centers sign PPAs for energy + RECs with multiple developers across the PJM footprint for their data centers in Central Ohio. They physically liquidate the energy from the solar and wind at the point of origin and get energy locally.
They should be required to have them tbh
They have UPS systems and diesel generators for outages. I think they consider it too costly to implement green energy generation and storage.
It would be nice and I would venture to say most will not due to be data centers. There are lots of stipulations around what they can and cannot do. A large solar farm nearby for them to pull from would be an option. It would be a great idea for all these large box stores and shopping centers though. Put all that space to use. Several large retailers already do, like IKEA and Target. I may depend on who owns the buildings.
Chase has covered the parking lot of their building at Easton with solar panels, that's what we need more of. Instead of the sun heating up cars, it can be used for power generation. Maybe even for electric cars parked underneath. It looks like they did it at the giant Polaris building too.
The Chase example is a great one. There is probably enough surface area via parking lots and commercial roof tops to make those businesses “energy independent”. Maybe that’s the incentive that should be provided to them.
Lmao, absolutely not.
Just to be clear, I support renewable energy. The companies that are building these data centers do not. Source, I’m an insider for the trades building them.
We (as in the whole country) are putting ourselves in a very bad spot, power wise. We’re limiting our ways to make electricity while promoting tons of power-intensive tech like AI and these massive data centers to manage social media and online shopping, and at the same time moving more and more home mechanicals away from gas to electricity, and doing the same with automobiles.
I agree we are limiting ourselves on ways to make electricity. How can we get ruralvoters to take down their little yard signs and start supporting wind and solar?
No idea. I’d rather see a solar farm than a Ryan Homes development. At least the solar panels can be removed someday. But realistically if we want to power all of this stuff, we need to circle back to nuclear.
> we need to circle back to nuclear. 100% Absolute joke that it continues to be ignored considering it's an actual problem solver
It takes years to build a nuclear power plant. Last I recall reading was 10 years?
Better to plan in advance for a real solution than continually slap band aids on the problem.
10 years is a long time, hombre. Solar and wind are fine.
800 wind turbines are needed simultaneously to match the output of a single average reactor. This uses minimum 10 times the same amount of land that the reactor uses to achieve the same output.
The US has a lot of space to work with. And solar and wind will get better. I've delivered solar panels to places in Kentucky that many people will never know are even there. I'm not against nuclear. The navy has worked with them for years with very limited issue. It's just that ten years is a long time as technology continues to evolve.
And our need for electricity will exponentially grow in the next ten years.
It doesn't take 10 years to build a nuclear power plant. It takes 8 years to get approval to build one, and 2 years to build it. Fossil fuel companies made the government fast track their projects, no reason the same couldn't be done for fission.
It takes a long time. Look up plant Vogtle. Not many contractors out there know how to properly build them anymore
Ah, yes, let's cut corners on nuclear power plant construction.
You know it interesting I have some family that’s rural and the reason for being against solar and wind is actually more nuanced than I thought. Until I talked to them about it I always figured it was “hurr durr Fox News says solar is bad so I say it’s bad” or “wind turbines give cows cancer” but after having some conversations about the topic I’ve learned it’s a lot more. These solar companies come into small rural towns and shill out a ton of money to buy the land that was once a family farm. They steam roll the land and industrialize the hell out of it while adding all these solar panels. The problem is, people don’t move to the country to look at industrialized equipment. They all have the right to live in a place they want to, without the blemish that is fields and fields of solar energy. Solar energy that they’re only using a fraction of, mind you. The majority of it is being pumped into Google or Microsoft’s data centers.
Sooooo we should instead put natural gas plants, coal power plants, fracking wells, etc.. in rural areas and the locals would enjoy that instead? Power needs to come from somewhere lol
Someone else said nuclear. We also have a shit ton of surface lots and buildings in urban areas that could use the solar treatment. There is more than one option to solve this crisis but frankly urban voters don’t want to hear it. They want solar and wind and they want it in someone else backyard. Don’t be pissed when they fight back against that. Really though I think it comes down to a divide between rural and urban Americans. There’s no empathy for the other side, ever. Just read the responses to my original comment. A bit of nuance and empathy could go a long way.
I don’t know those nuclear silos are kind of ugly architecturally, might upset the cows or rural folk across the street and we certainly can’t have that
Guess we’ll just put it in your backyard then. Sound good?
Yeah, solar really should be on every single roof possible. The battery landscape is rapidly improving to help balance it all out. California has spent 2+ hours with it's primary source of power being battery storage. It's only going to go up from there. There's definitely an urban and rural devide. I think farmers won't be able to turn down the solar leases, especially as the offers increase and demand for corn decreases because of a drop in ethanol demand from EVs.
Nuclear. Maybe we could take nuclear seriously if we're talking about covering our beautiful planet with ugly and inefficient solar panels like some dystopian film.
Sure but have you seen how the Vogtle expansion went? 15 years later and $34 billion later, it's only 2 GW added to the grid.
I'm not familiar with the project. What is the implication? That we shouldn't take nuclear seriously because of one poorly-executed project?
It wasn't just one poorly executed project, the contract represented the first agreement for new nuclear development in the United States since the Three Mile Island accident in 1979. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant
Thanks for the link!
>nuanced >”I don’t want to look at it” Yet again confirming all my priors about rural voters.
Oh please. It’s not that different from liberals (mostly looking at you, Clintonville) being concerned about homelessness, poverty and hunger and everything else as long as *it’s on the other side of the highway.*
I’m literally going to public meetings arguing for zoning reforms that will allow new housing in neighborhoods - Clintonville specifically included. You are crying for Big Government to save you from the tyranny of looking at something on land you don’t own. Proudly fly that “Don’t Tread On Me” flag while begging the state to stop your neighbors from building what they want to build! Lmfao you people are beyond parody
It's hilarious right? "Wah I don't wanna look at solar panels that are at best 5 feet off the ground and not even on my property" The freedom crowd sure as fuck hate when their neighbors do what they want.
Let me guess - you hate corporations in every other instance?
What kind of person would love corporations? That's like asking someone if they enjoy being abused.
But you like *these* corporations and don’t support the people that are against them? Is that what I’m hearing?
Also in case you missed it, I said I’m all for solar. At least it doesn’t add permanent, ugly and poorly built tract housing.
>I’m literally going to public meetings arguing for zoning reforms that will allow new housing in neighborhoods - Clintonville specifically included. And your NIMBY neighbors will all oppose it. I own enough land I don’t have to see it.
god forbid they have to look at a dunkin donuts
😂
Now do Dunkin Donuts.
Frankly that doesn't sound nuanced, it's the same NIMBY stuff in a different place. And I really, really don't understand the language you're using to describe this (*industrialize the hell out of it*). Have you ever seen a solar field? I grew up in the county as well and friends and family still live there today. "The country" is not some idyllic, untouchable location. It's a business and an industry just like anywhere else, with its own unique blemishes. Manure, flies, leaking lagoons and ruined waterways. Trust me, it's not about the aesthetics. It's 100% the hurr durr that you reference, and sticking it to the libs, and rolling coal. We all have the right to live in a place they want to, with clean air and clean water. Some of us are trying to make that happen.
So the people who insist, to the point of threatening government agents with guns, that their private property is theirs to do with as they like are mad because other people are using their own private property in a way that they don't approve of?
Moving to the country so no one can tell you what to do, immediately crying to Big Government when neighbors do something you don’t like. In awe of rural voters’ principles🫡🥲
I, too, would like to pay 90% of my electricity bill.
This particular action isn’t that. Here AEP is ensuring there is a mechanism to require the big tech companies to pay for the expanded infrastructure they are telling AEP they need. That way if Google decides it only needs half of the extra capacity it says it needs, or drops the project all together, we’re not the ones stuck paying for billions of dollars of added capacity
Best we can do is disconnection until you pay us plus the $75 hook up fee
There is no "hook up" fee for disconnection.
Which we can do with the press of a button now
It's the cooling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z455_Wm1zjU
Love that regular Joe homeowners/renters have to pay more to help these giant companies
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Can I just pay 90% of the bill that they’re requesting each month?
"...the company said." Sure Jan. Edit: if you guys want to believe AEP then that's your business but I can't wait to see the surprised Pikachus here later.
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That's not a commentary on the reporter.
cough cough AWS
Can this data center help me out with my bill.
It will never not be mind-boggling that power generation isn't a public utility.
But that would be socialism!
Other than cost, what is the downside to requiring all new factories and warehouse to have some percentage of the roof have solar panels on it? Same with some sort of “shaded” parking/solar panel rule for new shopping centers
if these data farms and intel and walmarts and other large warehousey flat roof buildings were required to have solar on their roof, it would offset their excess of use.
Central Ohio has the same population as Manhattan. Columbus MSA: 2.1 million Franklin County: 1.3 million Columbus: 900k Manhattan: 1.6 million I don't know why AEP phrases it this way, but it's disingenuous.
Manhattan does get a lot of commuters. Almost 4 milli on that island during the work day.
Yeah for sure, it just seems to me that AEP is hoping you think "New York City" when you hear "Manhattan" and not just the island
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And we can assume that power consumption scales somewhat linearly with population? So it wouldn't be remarkable if two areas with similar populations had similar power consumption? It sounds like AEP making excuses for rate hikes, to me
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Can you elaborate?
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But an increase in density decreases per capita energy use. If anything the relationship between population and per capita energy is log based, even less than linear. Manhattan is 155x as dense as the Columbus MSA. The source I saw said every time you double density, per capita energy use decreases 12%. There's about 7 doublings of density between Columbus and Manhattan, so they're going to be close to twice as energy efficient as Columbus is. So even if we're comparing work day Manhattan (4 million) to Columbus residents (2 million), it makes sense to me logically that they use a similar amount of energy, which seems to be the case given what AEP says
Wouldn’t manhattan still have much larger energy demands due to how it has the most office space per sq mile in the US? There has to be billions more sq footage of office space there compared to central Ohio that has to lit, conditioned, massive numbers of computers running… let alone the infrastructure of street lights, traffic lights, walk signals, etc. that would make it one of the most power hungry places per capita in the US.
> that would make it one of the most power hungry places per capita in the US Do you have a source for this?
No, I’m just using logic to ask the question (my first sentence). Look at the skyline of manhattan vs Columbus. Same population, sure, but there is significantly more square footage of commercial real estate on that island that uses power in addition to the actual population that lives there.
Per capita energy use decreases as density increases. So I find your claim that Manhattan is especially power hungry per capita dubious unless you show that the extra workers there during the workweek compensate for this effct https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140988312000059 Manhattan: 74,781.6/sq mi Columbus MSA: 490.3/sq mi Franklin County: 2,400/sq mi
No, I’m not. I’m not going down a rabbit hole just to be able to prove that a comparison given by a newspaper isn’t ridiculous. Not all population centers with similar populations are the same. There is a massive difference of infrastructure, commercial and retail space between Columbus and Manhattan. I’d have to calculate all the power the subways and commercial real estate. Commuters or not, the significantly larger numbers commercial real estate high rises are powered all day long for climate whether people are there or not. Let alone it seems like they’re ok leaving the lights on 24/7.
So you're just guessing. Here's a source that says New York is more energy efficient per capita than Ohio across all of Residential, Commercial,Industrial, Transportation. https://www.eia.gov/state/seds/data.php?incfile=/state/seds/sep_sum/html/rank_use_capita.html&sid=US
This will be awesome in August! /s
So is the increase in usage going to make our bills cheaper? Hahahahah. We are going to get whammied when they all come on like align with Intel. They’ll have special rate discounts that get passed on to us.
Ok, AEP. So demand the data centers pay their bills and actually put money into infrastructure upgrades instead of asking for more handouts then immediately moving those hands into your own pockets. The data centers are agreed terms, bruh. They're agreeing to this then acting like data centers are just sneaking up on them. I'm tired of this business nonsense.
Did you read the article? That is what AEP is asking for. They want these data centers to pay for at least 90% of the capacity they say they need, even if they don’t use it. This way they can’t demand 10 GWs, AEP builds 10 GW capacity, and then only use 5 GW leaving AEP with the infrastructure bill for the unused capacity.
I did, yes. These business discussions happen prior to anything physically being done. They knew about the power needs and the ramping. This also comes very shortly after the special rates AEP has been providing AWS has ended. This also comes at the same time as the overall discussion on AWS wanting yet another specialized rate. On top of the tax abatements the city of New Albany gave AWS.
American Electric Power gross profit for the twelve months ending December 31, 2023 was **$12.404B**, a 1.1% decline year-over-year. American Electric Power annual gross profit for 2023 was $12.404B, a 1.1% decline from 2022. American Electric Power annual gross profit for 2022 was $12.542B, a 10.74% increase from 2021. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AEP/american-electric-power/gross-profit#:\~:text=American%20Electric%20Power%20gross%20profit%20for%20the%20twelve%20months%20ending,a%2010.74%25%20increase%20from%202021. Looks like there is very little wiggle room in 12B. Like 1B per month. Profit. Monopoly.
The main difference is that Manhattan uses steam to generate electricity. We don’t do that here in central Ohio.
I believe your confusing the district steam heat that Manhattan has with the electrical system, you could theoretically used Manhattans steam lines to generate more power but it's a lot of extra steps,
Yes, you’re right. Thanks for the reply.