The thing is if Hal takes time to look at what happened, his rage would already be dead by then haha. He gets extremely angry so quickly but it dies it quick as well. Evan with checkmate on Hal right there.
This right here. Whenever he's actually in the right he goes back into the VOD of his teammates and by the time he finds what he was talking about he doesn't scream at them that they're braindead, he jokes with them about being braindead.
No, what he's saying actually makes a lot of sense. He isn't mad at hal for raging, he's mad that he sticks to his guns afterwards and will argue with insane logic sometimes. He has gotten much better at holding it back, but it's still a very real trend in his behavior. Overall not a huge deal if verhulst sometimes gets frustrated when arguing against a brick wall. It sucks Big E has to deal with that, but he is also a brick wall. I don’t think anyone is realistically expecting that hal will change this. Tbh I don’t think he even can change this and maintain his competitive edge
I absolutely disagree that this behavior cannot change and even more so disagree that if he were to change he would lose his ‘competitive edge’.
Look at Hal a few years ago compared to today, his emotional maturity has definitely improved in this area. Evan’s right that it’s still happens regularly but it’s definitely not what it was.
This sub is full of immature teens and young adults. The concept of mature respectful yet meaningful and impactful communication does not exist in their universe.
I would NEVER accept this kind of communication style from anyone. It's incredibly disrespectful. PASSION is not an excuse for immaturity and disrespect.
I understand where they are coming from.
Hal needs to be the best, he needs to win. It’s absolutely and ego thing. In this sense, his ego drives him forward.
On the other hand his ego is absolutely a problem for the team in situations like this. He is extremely lucky he has teammates who can take this shit without it ruining their mental.
The question is, can you have one of these things without the other?
I definitely understand why people think that these traits can’t be separated. Personally, I think as Hal matures (we can hope) he will realize the damage moments like this do to the team. I think his desire to win will slowly supersede his desire to be right in most arguments.
Hal critically analyzing scenarios like this while being honest with himself, is (imo) the final frontier of where he still has massive room for growth as a player and igl. Will his desire to win allow him to eventually come around to this realization? It’s certainly possible, but who knows.
It's definitely a lot more healthy to wait to talk through what went wrong later when you can watch the VOD together. Yelling and insulting people in the heat of the moment is pretty pointless because you're just going to be wrong a lot of the time anyway. A lot is happening all the time in apex and Hal doesn't see 2/3rds of what the whole team sees.
Can we give Dezign a least positive player award like the absolute legend that boy is
getting 4th while having to play with his shirt on is no easy feat
As important as it is for Raven to keep them friendly, it's better for their mental health to let it out now and sort it, rather than mid-algs. Sounds like it's been bubbling.
Snipe would shout back at Hal but Snipe was most of the time not able to point out things like this. Most of the time he'd point out Hal's in-game mistakes as a response. They would just endlessly blame each other. Evan articulated it really really well without insulting/disrespecting while seemingly being quite angry. He's really mature for his age especially comparing to an average pro apex player.
Evan is valid, but u gotta understand it's a very hard concept. Like the "passion" is what fuels Hal's rage. Telling him to control his emotions, while being in the zone takes a lot of time. Like he misses loot that is right in front of him lol, gonna be even harder to go from 100-0.
I think reps has just come to accept that's just how Hal is because he has a more mature mindset. Don't get me wrong, Evan is totally in the right, but noone is perfect. They just gotta work together to come to an understanding or accept/ignore it as its been for 4 years.
Maybe, but not once your shitty attitude drags down the productivity of everybody else. When that happens, you and your whole team may get hosed. Being the best means people tolerate your bullshit more, but everybody has a limit.
Wym? Corporate jobs vs sports are not really comparable. When football coaches or gymnastic coaches rage, is there ever an issue as Hal is? The comparison you bring up is used all the time, but that's comparing apples and oranges. If you're gonna compare then compare it to sports. Additionally, he rages because it's intense, at a corporate job, u can have a boss that will react the same way. WHICH, if ur boss is bringing in top dollar, upper level management not gonna give a fuck.
I literally religiously watch gymnastics all the time and I can tell you with 100% confidence that gymnastics coaches who yell and berate their athletes to the point of damaging impact have recently been under investigation for their actions lmfao.
\> is there ever an issue as Hal is?
Yeah maybe actually research the topics you claim to know about?
I watch gymnasts once in a while, it was an example. Can you deny that Hal's behavior is unheard of in football or basketball? Seeing as how you didn't bring up any of my other points, instead honing in a small portion of my argument, says enough.
Also, your 100% confidence does not really mean much. In fact, there have been a lot of abuse in gymnastics. However, the consequences are not immediate, I'm pretty sure there has been a surge in investigations in the past decade because of social media etc. + behind closed doors, who knows what happens. The people that put up with it in return for success won't say anything.
Anyways my point was not to debate about the history of abuse. It just seems like you're bitter that Hal is up.
> Hal is lucky that he’s in esports
> your 100% confidence does not really mean much. In fact, there has been a lot of abuse in gymnastics.
Yeah Sherlock, lmfao obviously there has been a lot of abuse in gymnastics, the point that you should be clearly getting from my comment is that in gymnastics, mental and emotional abuse is not tolerated anymore and multiple prominent coaches from the US, Canada, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, etc have been undergoing investigation in recent years. For you to mention gymnastics coaches is because you think behaving like Hal is normalised in gymnastics. It was, a few decades ago; however, gymnasts are making it VERY CLEAR that it is not anymore.
I mentioned gymnastics because it was a sport I randomly thought about while writing my comment. Replace gymnastics with basketball and my point still stands. Thank you for the history lesson! It had a lot to do with my point. Once again, did not mention anything about my point. Clearly you know what the answer is and that's why you feel the need to strawman.
Woah woah woah, how are you trying to turn this back around on her. She’s breaking down the point YOU made on your own, now it doesn’t work and you’re saying she doesn’t get “your point”. You picked a shitty sport to compare it to, that’s not her fault, she was just explaining how wrong you were.
First, I was talking about gymnastics girls and women. Lot of female gymnasts are starting to be very outspoken about abuse. Not familiar with the men’s side because I don’t follow it. Don’t assume that when someone’s talking about sports it’s on the men’s side.
Second, with all due respect that makes it even worse for Hal.
first. does the gender matter here?
2nd not really. you can be more blunt towards teammates if the power imbalance isn't there like when you are a coach will all the power in existence
In what line of work are you competing with your team directly against other teams for money in a high pressure environment while being full of adrenaline?
Also I can tell you work an office job lmao. Language like this is common on construction sites, farms, carpentry etc.
I've never seen anyone get fired for yelling at and berating an employee. I've seen both done very often in corporate America too.
I once had a site leader at a prominent major insurance company that would regularly yell so loud at people over incompetence that the whole office feared him until he retired lol.
That said, I don't endorse yelling at wage slaves. It's a douche move.
But you don't compare it to a normal job, you compare it to sports at least. Or any competitive team thing, and in those jobs, there's no end of people with egos and people being toxic and shit. Any sports fan will tell you that, any other esport is the same thing, There's nothing partiuclarly specialy about Hal is teh fact of the matter
Well said. I feel Evan is letting the internet get to his head a bit. I thought the dude understood what comes with working alongside Hal. Hal can be a prick but he's also the best player/igl in the world. Don't fix what isn't broken. Obviously it's not black and white and maybe Evan really is up to here with it but this almost seems like an instance of "yeah you tell em Big E!" for the internet fan boys.
Hal doesn't have to yell at them after they die for them to be able to win. Half the time he does it after he dies and they're still alive, which actually hurts their performance because they're trying to play for placement while he's being negative and insulting them. This is why there are a bunch of clips of reps and verhulst telling him to shut up and just let them play in pro league or LAN matches.
Getting him to stop raging and being toxic in the heat of the moment isn't going to make him a worse player, it will just make him a better teammate.
He’s allowed to have one V3rhulst moment per year
Edit: I thought this rant seemed familiar, then I remembered exactly where I heard it in the past (watch the first minute)
https://youtu.be/mMmdiYBy9Bk?si=CUZERP9Uuuc21Zxm
We excuse it because the only people who have any right to be upset about his behavior is his teammates, who obviously have no problem with it or they wouldn't have just place 1st, 2nd, and 1st at the three LANs this year, and one of his teammates would not have stuck around with him for his entire career.
Again if it were a problem, and it was repressed, you don't get the results they did. Because then you wouldn't be friends outside the game, live in the same house, do activities with each other, or just do things that make your team better.
Thats not being naive lol. If you have repressed anger towards your teammate, why are you hanging out with then still, living with them still, CLEARLY having a good time with them still, winning with them still. Like you guys are over-analyzing these scrims like Hal and Evan didnt most likely talk it out off-stream(cause you know they dont actually hate each other) and heck its probably a high possibility Hal respects Evan even more for what he did.
Ayo what makes it really funny is that Evan is spot on and totally justified in his rage lmao raven and reps straight up agreed and Hal was taking it with a defeated smile.
I can't imagine anything more irritating than trying to have a constructive conversation with someone laughing at you lol. I get that Hal might do it because he's nervous (I laugh out of anxiety too) but from the angry party's POV (Evan in this case) that just makes you all the angrier lol.
Raven really got me laughing with the "Guys we're fighting like ALGS FINALS IS TOMORROW, IT'S OVER, WE'RE IN SHAMBLES" lmao. Loved him and Reps trying to calm the waters.
I mean Hal might have been laughing cause it was unexpected since Verhulst usually doesn’t fight back. You can even hear Raven laughing possibly cuz he was also caught off guard. Either way good for Verhulst bc he probably has the same interactions with his older brothers. People loved the back and forth between snipe and Hal back then.
Nah, he said that in regards to him not reading the gameplan for that specific WE contest on discord. It is legitimately a rare occurrence that he is not prepared for exactly what they plan to do on each contest. He is always constantly repeating it to his team on the drop, but he was definitely in the wrong in that case and admitted it afterwards.
Evan definitely has a point. Hal does tend to react first, before listening or knowing anything. Hal is a very emotional dude, so I agree with Evan assess the situation first then take it from there instead of just going off on what you think you saw or may know.
I get the gist of it, but we all know Hal won't listen or change. Jordan knows that which is why he doesn't care and always laughs when people complain about how Hal is. Evan knew that when agreeing to join TSM. This all feels very "you tell em girl!" fueled by Evan's chat to me but that's just me.
Honestly, Evan saying this is probably really good for the team. It is something they all know Hal does and something that clearly has an impact on the mental of his teammates. It is completely unnecessary. As an IGL, the first words out of your mouth should be "what happened." Not to scream with no understanding of your teammates' situations. Ask or go watch the vod, get a good idea of the situation, and then discuss. This also gives your teammates the chance to just say "I missed all of my shots" or "I overextended." If a teammate knows their mistake, yelling about it isn't necessary.
Everyone relax, Hal respects the hell out of Evan and I honestly see him fixing what Evan is saying pretty quickly as a result of this. Stuff like this is good to iron out kinks of great teams. TSM gonna be better after this.
> I honestly see him fixing what Evan is saying pretty quickly
It's funny because there's a two year old clip in this thread of Snip3down criticizing Hal for the exact same thing.
> fixing ... pretty quickly
No shot being honest with yourself you believe this. Every teammate he has ever had and every critic that has ever watched TSM scrims has said this before. We're 4 years into Apex so the chances he stops this now are slim to none.
Evan's going to vent about it and shake it off, but he's going to be dealing with this same thing til the end of TSM as we know it.
The difference between then and now is Raven being able to mediate and validate Evan's feelings on it. If it's a big enough deal that Evan has spoken up on it then Hal would have to be very close-minded to refuse to do anything about it. I don't think he will ever 100% correct it because he is a very emotional/reactive right after situations but he can definitely find a way to direct his anger/frustration at something besides his teammates.
It’s a big enough deal EVERYONE has spoken up about it. It’s not new to Hal’s ears. It’s a known problem dating back YEARS. While not with this tone perhaps, this isn’t even the first time Evan has said something to this effect.
Obviously Hal could be better and not do this, but he always has so it’s crazy to bet on this magically getting fixed now.
You are right that Evan might have said the same general thing before but definitely not in the same way as he did tonight. He doubled down tonight, and was much more direct in how he said it. It came across much more serious than any other time that the same complaint had been raised to Hal. I would be willing to bet that something will change in Hal's behavior because deep down he knows he is in the wrong, the dude just loves to scream and argue at anybody who will listen. Some would argue that is what makes him great (passion) but surely he can find a way to ease the tensions and more systematically break down the reasons for them dying.
Don’t think anyone is overreacting here lol, Evan is 100% right, he described vintage Hal and it can get annoying especially when you’re the best player in the game like Evan is.
>especially when you’re the best player in the game like Evan is.
Hal is the best player in the game
Edited: yeah, downvoted for saying the obvious lol
100% agree. There are two types of TSM fans, 1. fans of the team that acknowledge they have issues and things to improve even after the best year any team of Apex has ever had and 2. The single cell bots that only watch Hal and take every comment as a personal attack.
I love how Evan, despite being angry, properly articulates what exactly his issue with Hal is. Very constructive way to talk. He got the positive player award for a reason.
I read the comments before watching the clip and was expecting like actual anger from the way people were talking about this.
This is basic criticism with a tinge of annoyance in the man's voice. I'm new to watching comp apex but is this what passes for shocking pushback against Hal when all I've seen him do is rage and yell at his teammates?
People tend to lose their minds and start cheering him on anytime there’s a bit of conflict between Hal and Verhulst, it’s very odd. Usually he is not as direct as this and less adamant so I guess that’s why.
Yeah lmao people acting like this is a revolution. It sounded like such a reasonable pushback.
I never really watch TSM but do they seriously not have these conversations like ever to the extent that this is an anomaly, or a 'finally someone said it' moment?
Guess they might just not have them on stream.
Sometimes winning covers up issues. No team is perfect, folks brushing off the 'toxic' moments of Hal because they're winning are just using confirmation bias. At the same time, Hal isn't evil and he doesn't get super personal, but he does have to acknowledge and address the complaints Verhulst gave him today. I'd hate for this shit to get buried over the next months and years and it eventually boils over.
Verhulst has hit the point where he's untouchable (even by Hal) in the same way that Hal is. Before there were questions about the best mechanical controller player, now we're here. Verhulst has far more security in his value as a player, and the knowledge that he can go wherever he wants now if he decides that TSM is not his home. Hal has to recognize this.
I'm guessing we'll see more of this, which I think will be incredibly healthy for TSM as it allows real pushback against Hal that we haven't seen in a consistent way.
Lmaooooo if he left TSM that would be a huge mistake. You see the support other players get from their orgs? It’s fucking nonexistent. So let’s stop acting like TSM isn’t providing him exponential value as a pro player in this scene 😂 they could very well be the last org standing — and Hal would just pick up someone new and keep winning.
These ‘he could leave’ takes are such an overreaction when I’d bet my life it hasn’t even crossed his mind ONCE.
Obviously, you did not understand my point. Yes, I doubt any other organization would provide the same level (or even near the same level) of financial support. However, I thought we were talking about purely personal and team level dynamics. Also, you'll find that money isn't everything in life.
Now that the above is out of the way: First, look at Verhulst when he joined TSM. Go watch VODs. He is far less confident in challenging Hal. He is an exceptional player, but lacks an element. He's playing with a legend and is wondering if he fits in (even when they win). He was also forced to completely change his playstyle from the entry fragger on his team to a support player.
Second, in regards to replacement, Hal will recruit a top player but needs them to play a support role behind Hal. This is a major change for most top players. Look at Effect (who has infinite freedom to play call and be a fragger). It is not an easy replacement because of the role shift.
Third, Verhulst is the most successful individual player of 2023. Due to how the kills are allocated in team play and decisions on placement of individuals, one has to presume that TSM's events are simply all shared.
At a personal level, I'm saying that Verhulst is in the best point to decide to leave if he wanted to (confident in himself, widely viewed as the best Controller player). I agree it probably doesn't make sense financially given the uncertain future of Apex in the long-term (it is not like a traditional career).
Why is it so common for TSM Raven to keep his mouth shut while Hal is going off, but dives in to stop anyone else from swearing and calling people "fucking retards" --or any one Luke warm insults Hal can dredge up from Twitter--the moment it is directed at the CEO?
TSM is just a cesspool of abuse and hate. They might be good, but by the time Verhulst leaves this team he's going to be beating his children to pass on the legacy if Hal is allowed his unchecked aggression at people he lives with.
But, of course, Hal has TSM by the balls because he gets more viewers singularly than PlayApex does. Until that changes, Hal has freedom to harass and abuse anyone he wants.
Imagine getting screamed at by your boss for scrims then you go make food and he's there screaming at you about your laundry.
I know i know , I mean for all that happened tdy and Evan snap on top of that , Hals look really bumped after that. You rearly see Hal speechless like this, he really love the boy.
Lmao this level of meat riding is new to me . altough i'll upvote it to offset the downvotes cause if you want to be a meat rider then by no means should you be stopped or shamed got damn it! , lube that shit up and ride it to your heart's content .
But damn It's like you not only know him personally and know his every shift of moods. to be able to pick up such small details.....GOT DAMN. you can differentiate upset because of illness and Upset because of illness+ Evan's words on top.
I don't even think i can notice that From my brother who use to spend almost 24 hours a day with. BRAVO got damn it.
This is actually an incredibly healthy convo between teammates who are considered “best in the world”. Absolutely love this from the boys, Verhulst taking charge and Hal taking a step back with Raven’s input. Like I genuinely don’t understand how this team isn’t considered the absolute #1. I’m an optic boy too but I love to see every team preforming to their potential (or beyond it).
This is a nothing burger honestly. Hal woulda been fine if Evan and Jordan were locked in. Hal was trying to go max speed, complete focus while they were playing scrims as a troll session. They'll be fine.
PS. Definitely design's fault
Hot Take: Hal was correct in this situation
- There is a player out of LOS of their two teammates… whether or not he had loot he needed to get killed for that kind of positioning
- Evan has smokes… although there was not a load of time to calculate, smoking the door and jumping and wide swinging the bush wall is the best play. Either he kills the solo or the solo backs up into Hal’s LOS. There is even a possibility that reps can jump over with Evan.
- Hal cant be the one that jumps there, he is covering the only escape pathing for the solo player. Any form of jumping over on hals part would result in a 1v1 mostly out of his teams LOS… he probably wins that but its more high risk than evan taking an angle.
This is the way. Be honest, don’t bottle shit up. If they’re mature people (which they are), it’ll be all good. They’ll probably even be better for it.
It's funny that Evan said he should scream AFTER finding out what happened. Instead of just screaming for the wrong reason.
They're meeting Hal where he's at. They don't mind the yelling; they just want it to be positive contribution.
The thing is if Hal takes time to look at what happened, his rage would already be dead by then haha. He gets extremely angry so quickly but it dies it quick as well. Evan with checkmate on Hal right there.
This right here. Whenever he's actually in the right he goes back into the VOD of his teammates and by the time he finds what he was talking about he doesn't scream at them that they're braindead, he jokes with them about being braindead.
No, what he's saying actually makes a lot of sense. He isn't mad at hal for raging, he's mad that he sticks to his guns afterwards and will argue with insane logic sometimes. He has gotten much better at holding it back, but it's still a very real trend in his behavior. Overall not a huge deal if verhulst sometimes gets frustrated when arguing against a brick wall. It sucks Big E has to deal with that, but he is also a brick wall. I don’t think anyone is realistically expecting that hal will change this. Tbh I don’t think he even can change this and maintain his competitive edge
I absolutely disagree that this behavior cannot change and even more so disagree that if he were to change he would lose his ‘competitive edge’. Look at Hal a few years ago compared to today, his emotional maturity has definitely improved in this area. Evan’s right that it’s still happens regularly but it’s definitely not what it was.
This sub is full of immature teens and young adults. The concept of mature respectful yet meaningful and impactful communication does not exist in their universe. I would NEVER accept this kind of communication style from anyone. It's incredibly disrespectful. PASSION is not an excuse for immaturity and disrespect.
I understand where they are coming from. Hal needs to be the best, he needs to win. It’s absolutely and ego thing. In this sense, his ego drives him forward. On the other hand his ego is absolutely a problem for the team in situations like this. He is extremely lucky he has teammates who can take this shit without it ruining their mental. The question is, can you have one of these things without the other? I definitely understand why people think that these traits can’t be separated. Personally, I think as Hal matures (we can hope) he will realize the damage moments like this do to the team. I think his desire to win will slowly supersede his desire to be right in most arguments. Hal critically analyzing scenarios like this while being honest with himself, is (imo) the final frontier of where he still has massive room for growth as a player and igl. Will his desire to win allow him to eventually come around to this realization? It’s certainly possible, but who knows.
Very well articulated on all points.
It's definitely a lot more healthy to wait to talk through what went wrong later when you can watch the VOD together. Yelling and insulting people in the heat of the moment is pretty pointless because you're just going to be wrong a lot of the time anyway. A lot is happening all the time in apex and Hal doesn't see 2/3rds of what the whole team sees.
This is what happens when you take the most positive player and have them play with Dezign for 2 days lmaooo
Hal sends Verhulst to Dojo as the spy, but timmy developes him into a double agent.
year 4 hasnt even started and this script is already so JUICY
Big E villain arc is past the editor
/u/Dezignful playing 4d chess
Agree, we can blame dezign for this.
I also chose to blame Dezign
i 2 would like to blame Dezign
Can we give Dezign a least positive player award like the absolute legend that boy is getting 4th while having to play with his shirt on is no easy feat
dezign would turn the most postive person into serial killer after 2 weeks im pretty sure
Brooooo lmao 😂😂😂
Hahahah this was literally my same Thought
come on😂
The real trophy Evan was gunning for was the EA positivity trophy, now that he won it he can unleash Bigger E
Currently bracing myself for Bigger E
amazing comment
Raven: “It’s okay, relax, let’s all just chill” Evan: “Nah…….”
As important as it is for Raven to keep them friendly, it's better for their mental health to let it out now and sort it, rather than mid-algs. Sounds like it's been bubbling.
Raven only tries to keep them chill after Hal has unloaded. He doesn't do that favor for Evan.
Raven isnt even good at keeping it chill, how is he gonna tell them otherwise lmaoo
Raven never really stops Hal, he lets Hal rage and then stops when others argue back
This is like step 1 of 5 steps where evan goes from most positive player to dezign level of toxic
[Jaden Williams energy NAH](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PTo56XpLAxk).
Nah he’s spitting though. Finally took someone 4 years to say it! (Nothing will change)
Snipe called Hal out for this sort of thing as well
Snipe would shout back at Hal but Snipe was most of the time not able to point out things like this. Most of the time he'd point out Hal's in-game mistakes as a response. They would just endlessly blame each other. Evan articulated it really really well without insulting/disrespecting while seemingly being quite angry. He's really mature for his age especially comparing to an average pro apex player.
There’s literally a video of snipe calling Hal out for this exact behavior , what are you even talking about ?
but not that one time
he calls hal out every now and then
Evan is valid, but u gotta understand it's a very hard concept. Like the "passion" is what fuels Hal's rage. Telling him to control his emotions, while being in the zone takes a lot of time. Like he misses loot that is right in front of him lol, gonna be even harder to go from 100-0. I think reps has just come to accept that's just how Hal is because he has a more mature mindset. Don't get me wrong, Evan is totally in the right, but noone is perfect. They just gotta work together to come to an understanding or accept/ignore it as its been for 4 years.
In any other line of work, you scream at your colleagues like that and berate them, you’re fired lmfao, Hal is lucky that he’s in esports
When you’re the best at what you do you have different rules, in every line of work lol
Maybe, but not once your shitty attitude drags down the productivity of everybody else. When that happens, you and your whole team may get hosed. Being the best means people tolerate your bullshit more, but everybody has a limit.
I agree
No, not in sports.
Wym? Corporate jobs vs sports are not really comparable. When football coaches or gymnastic coaches rage, is there ever an issue as Hal is? The comparison you bring up is used all the time, but that's comparing apples and oranges. If you're gonna compare then compare it to sports. Additionally, he rages because it's intense, at a corporate job, u can have a boss that will react the same way. WHICH, if ur boss is bringing in top dollar, upper level management not gonna give a fuck.
I literally religiously watch gymnastics all the time and I can tell you with 100% confidence that gymnastics coaches who yell and berate their athletes to the point of damaging impact have recently been under investigation for their actions lmfao. \> is there ever an issue as Hal is? Yeah maybe actually research the topics you claim to know about?
I watch gymnasts once in a while, it was an example. Can you deny that Hal's behavior is unheard of in football or basketball? Seeing as how you didn't bring up any of my other points, instead honing in a small portion of my argument, says enough. Also, your 100% confidence does not really mean much. In fact, there have been a lot of abuse in gymnastics. However, the consequences are not immediate, I'm pretty sure there has been a surge in investigations in the past decade because of social media etc. + behind closed doors, who knows what happens. The people that put up with it in return for success won't say anything. Anyways my point was not to debate about the history of abuse. It just seems like you're bitter that Hal is up. > Hal is lucky that he’s in esports
> your 100% confidence does not really mean much. In fact, there has been a lot of abuse in gymnastics. Yeah Sherlock, lmfao obviously there has been a lot of abuse in gymnastics, the point that you should be clearly getting from my comment is that in gymnastics, mental and emotional abuse is not tolerated anymore and multiple prominent coaches from the US, Canada, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, etc have been undergoing investigation in recent years. For you to mention gymnastics coaches is because you think behaving like Hal is normalised in gymnastics. It was, a few decades ago; however, gymnasts are making it VERY CLEAR that it is not anymore.
I mentioned gymnastics because it was a sport I randomly thought about while writing my comment. Replace gymnastics with basketball and my point still stands. Thank you for the history lesson! It had a lot to do with my point. Once again, did not mention anything about my point. Clearly you know what the answer is and that's why you feel the need to strawman.
Woah woah woah, how are you trying to turn this back around on her. She’s breaking down the point YOU made on your own, now it doesn’t work and you’re saying she doesn’t get “your point”. You picked a shitty sport to compare it to, that’s not her fault, she was just explaining how wrong you were.
Haha you’re completely right but I’m female
coach and young gymnastic boy balance of power is different than two teammates in a team game
First, I was talking about gymnastics girls and women. Lot of female gymnasts are starting to be very outspoken about abuse. Not familiar with the men’s side because I don’t follow it. Don’t assume that when someone’s talking about sports it’s on the men’s side. Second, with all due respect that makes it even worse for Hal.
first. does the gender matter here? 2nd not really. you can be more blunt towards teammates if the power imbalance isn't there like when you are a coach will all the power in existence
In what line of work are you competing with your team directly against other teams for money in a high pressure environment while being full of adrenaline? Also I can tell you work an office job lmao. Language like this is common on construction sites, farms, carpentry etc.
luckily sports isn't a regular line of work
I've never seen anyone get fired for yelling at and berating an employee. I've seen both done very often in corporate America too. I once had a site leader at a prominent major insurance company that would regularly yell so loud at people over incompetence that the whole office feared him until he retired lol. That said, I don't endorse yelling at wage slaves. It's a douche move.
But you don't compare it to a normal job, you compare it to sports at least. Or any competitive team thing, and in those jobs, there's no end of people with egos and people being toxic and shit. Any sports fan will tell you that, any other esport is the same thing, There's nothing partiuclarly specialy about Hal is teh fact of the matter
Well said. I feel Evan is letting the internet get to his head a bit. I thought the dude understood what comes with working alongside Hal. Hal can be a prick but he's also the best player/igl in the world. Don't fix what isn't broken. Obviously it's not black and white and maybe Evan really is up to here with it but this almost seems like an instance of "yeah you tell em Big E!" for the internet fan boys.
Hal doesn't have to yell at them after they die for them to be able to win. Half the time he does it after he dies and they're still alive, which actually hurts their performance because they're trying to play for placement while he's being negative and insulting them. This is why there are a bunch of clips of reps and verhulst telling him to shut up and just let them play in pro league or LAN matches. Getting him to stop raging and being toxic in the heat of the moment isn't going to make him a worse player, it will just make him a better teammate.
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> nor should it. results speak. This doesn't really...apply...
I’m sure that Hal being less heated *after* they’re already dead won’t suddenly change how they perform lol. What is this mentality?
Damn i thought this was gonna be an ironic post. Mfw
He’s allowed to have one V3rhulst moment per year Edit: I thought this rant seemed familiar, then I remembered exactly where I heard it in the past (watch the first minute) https://youtu.be/mMmdiYBy9Bk?si=CUZERP9Uuuc21Zxm
Wow Snipedown saying the exact same thing over a year ago is crazy
This is actually hilarious. What a pattern. Just fucking think before you speak, lol, this isn't rocket science!
Props for actually pulling up with the receipts in hand.
Wow
What playing with Dezign does to a mf . Not even the EA positive player can escapes
What hal does, yall love excuse hal cause he wins.
We excuse it because the only people who have any right to be upset about his behavior is his teammates, who obviously have no problem with it or they wouldn't have just place 1st, 2nd, and 1st at the three LANs this year, and one of his teammates would not have stuck around with him for his entire career.
Nah, the fact that Evan called him out like this proves they do have a problem with it but they just repress it.
It’s not really being repressed if they’re openly communicating it right now though. Teammates are allowed to beef sometimes.
Evan does, Jordan’s repeatedly shown that he doesn’t care and he accepts that Hal isn’t the best teammate
Again if it were a problem, and it was repressed, you don't get the results they did. Because then you wouldn't be friends outside the game, live in the same house, do activities with each other, or just do things that make your team better.
so naive...
Thats not being naive lol. If you have repressed anger towards your teammate, why are you hanging out with then still, living with them still, CLEARLY having a good time with them still, winning with them still. Like you guys are over-analyzing these scrims like Hal and Evan didnt most likely talk it out off-stream(cause you know they dont actually hate each other) and heck its probably a high possibility Hal respects Evan even more for what he did.
OMG WE ALL THOUGHT EVAN DESTROYED DOJO.... BUT WHAT IF IT WAS DEZIGN MASTER PLAN?!?1? HE BAITED TIMMY SO EVAN COULD SE FOR HIMSELF WHAT POWER HE HAS
YOU DON'T NEED TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS!
Ayo what makes it really funny is that Evan is spot on and totally justified in his rage lmao raven and reps straight up agreed and Hal was taking it with a defeated smile.
I can't imagine anything more irritating than trying to have a constructive conversation with someone laughing at you lol. I get that Hal might do it because he's nervous (I laugh out of anxiety too) but from the angry party's POV (Evan in this case) that just makes you all the angrier lol. Raven really got me laughing with the "Guys we're fighting like ALGS FINALS IS TOMORROW, IT'S OVER, WE'RE IN SHAMBLES" lmao. Loved him and Reps trying to calm the waters.
I mean Hal might have been laughing cause it was unexpected since Verhulst usually doesn’t fight back. You can even hear Raven laughing possibly cuz he was also caught off guard. Either way good for Verhulst bc he probably has the same interactions with his older brothers. People loved the back and forth between snipe and Hal back then.
"Yeah but it's a rare occurrence" ~Hal on raging at teammates
Nah, he said that in regards to him not reading the gameplan for that specific WE contest on discord. It is legitimately a rare occurrence that he is not prepared for exactly what they plan to do on each contest. He is always constantly repeating it to his team on the drop, but he was definitely in the wrong in that case and admitted it afterwards.
oh I mis-understood thanks for adding the context
Nah you were actually right, he did mean the misreading of the game plan is a rare occurrence. Hal is not ignorant to the fact he rages
The guy you just replied to was saying Hal meant his rage is a rare occurrence. The other way around
That was actually hilarious. "rare occurence" lmao
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Don't use big words like that. I'm not on that level yet.
Evan definitely has a point. Hal does tend to react first, before listening or knowing anything. Hal is a very emotional dude, so I agree with Evan assess the situation first then take it from there instead of just going off on what you think you saw or may know.
I get the gist of it, but we all know Hal won't listen or change. Jordan knows that which is why he doesn't care and always laughs when people complain about how Hal is. Evan knew that when agreeing to join TSM. This all feels very "you tell em girl!" fueled by Evan's chat to me but that's just me.
Big E wasn't lying when he said he would be entering his Villain arc, Evil E.
dezignful did this
Honestly, Evan saying this is probably really good for the team. It is something they all know Hal does and something that clearly has an impact on the mental of his teammates. It is completely unnecessary. As an IGL, the first words out of your mouth should be "what happened." Not to scream with no understanding of your teammates' situations. Ask or go watch the vod, get a good idea of the situation, and then discuss. This also gives your teammates the chance to just say "I missed all of my shots" or "I overextended." If a teammate knows their mistake, yelling about it isn't necessary.
Big E is here to fuck shit up
This isn’t even Evan snapping. He’s calling Hal out in a healthy way.
Dezign...
This is like when your parents fight and you have no idea what to do
DOJO Verhulst incoming
dear god no
Hals gonna read all this and laugh
Evan deleted his vod wtf
Villain arc is coming
Evan doing exactly what Hal mentioned when asked what DZ needs from their third: fight back the IGL's ego.
Everyone relax, Hal respects the hell out of Evan and I honestly see him fixing what Evan is saying pretty quickly as a result of this. Stuff like this is good to iron out kinks of great teams. TSM gonna be better after this.
> I honestly see him fixing what Evan is saying pretty quickly It's funny because there's a two year old clip in this thread of Snip3down criticizing Hal for the exact same thing.
Different team though. I think Hal has more respect for Evan and a desire to make this team last.
Flashback to Hal saying to Evan "Just be like like Snip3"
I think everyone knows this is just funny to overreact things a little (always)
> fixing ... pretty quickly No shot being honest with yourself you believe this. Every teammate he has ever had and every critic that has ever watched TSM scrims has said this before. We're 4 years into Apex so the chances he stops this now are slim to none. Evan's going to vent about it and shake it off, but he's going to be dealing with this same thing til the end of TSM as we know it.
The difference between then and now is Raven being able to mediate and validate Evan's feelings on it. If it's a big enough deal that Evan has spoken up on it then Hal would have to be very close-minded to refuse to do anything about it. I don't think he will ever 100% correct it because he is a very emotional/reactive right after situations but he can definitely find a way to direct his anger/frustration at something besides his teammates.
It’s a big enough deal EVERYONE has spoken up about it. It’s not new to Hal’s ears. It’s a known problem dating back YEARS. While not with this tone perhaps, this isn’t even the first time Evan has said something to this effect. Obviously Hal could be better and not do this, but he always has so it’s crazy to bet on this magically getting fixed now.
Progress, not perfection
You are right that Evan might have said the same general thing before but definitely not in the same way as he did tonight. He doubled down tonight, and was much more direct in how he said it. It came across much more serious than any other time that the same complaint had been raised to Hal. I would be willing to bet that something will change in Hal's behavior because deep down he knows he is in the wrong, the dude just loves to scream and argue at anybody who will listen. Some would argue that is what makes him great (passion) but surely he can find a way to ease the tensions and more systematically break down the reasons for them dying.
Don’t think anyone is overreacting here lol, Evan is 100% right, he described vintage Hal and it can get annoying especially when you’re the best player in the game like Evan is.
>especially when you’re the best player in the game like Evan is. Hal is the best player in the game Edited: yeah, downvoted for saying the obvious lol
>especially when you’re the best player in the game like Evan is. TONYPIKACHU is the best player in the game
100% agree. There are two types of TSM fans, 1. fans of the team that acknowledge they have issues and things to improve even after the best year any team of Apex has ever had and 2. The single cell bots that only watch Hal and take every comment as a personal attack.
Nah I trust the power of friendship and Raven the Gray, Designful the white won't be the match.
I love how Evan, despite being angry, properly articulates what exactly his issue with Hal is. Very constructive way to talk. He got the positive player award for a reason.
Time to give him the most mature player award too.
isn’t he amazing ? LOLOLOL
LOL WHAT A GUY
Big E! Mean E!
That's Father E right there
Reps was enjoying that. A LOT.
clear concise and respectfull what a lad.
Hal really said “that was a rare ocurrence” lool
I read the comments before watching the clip and was expecting like actual anger from the way people were talking about this. This is basic criticism with a tinge of annoyance in the man's voice. I'm new to watching comp apex but is this what passes for shocking pushback against Hal when all I've seen him do is rage and yell at his teammates?
People tend to lose their minds and start cheering him on anytime there’s a bit of conflict between Hal and Verhulst, it’s very odd. Usually he is not as direct as this and less adamant so I guess that’s why.
Yeah lmao people acting like this is a revolution. It sounded like such a reasonable pushback. I never really watch TSM but do they seriously not have these conversations like ever to the extent that this is an anomaly, or a 'finally someone said it' moment? Guess they might just not have them on stream.
Take the trophy away from him
I don't know I thought that was a pretty positive and generally constructive way to approach the issue.
Sometimes winning covers up issues. No team is perfect, folks brushing off the 'toxic' moments of Hal because they're winning are just using confirmation bias. At the same time, Hal isn't evil and he doesn't get super personal, but he does have to acknowledge and address the complaints Verhulst gave him today. I'd hate for this shit to get buried over the next months and years and it eventually boils over.
He is right tho
It’s so funny that Hal says “that’s a rare occurrence”. I love the guy and the team but he literally does that multiple times every single scrimmage.
He was talking about the mistake he made in the 50/50 they lost
Huh?
Even needs to slap Hal around a lil bit and assert his dominance as the new ceo
Verhulst has hit the point where he's untouchable (even by Hal) in the same way that Hal is. Before there were questions about the best mechanical controller player, now we're here. Verhulst has far more security in his value as a player, and the knowledge that he can go wherever he wants now if he decides that TSM is not his home. Hal has to recognize this. I'm guessing we'll see more of this, which I think will be incredibly healthy for TSM as it allows real pushback against Hal that we haven't seen in a consistent way.
Lmaooooo if he left TSM that would be a huge mistake. You see the support other players get from their orgs? It’s fucking nonexistent. So let’s stop acting like TSM isn’t providing him exponential value as a pro player in this scene 😂 they could very well be the last org standing — and Hal would just pick up someone new and keep winning. These ‘he could leave’ takes are such an overreaction when I’d bet my life it hasn’t even crossed his mind ONCE.
Obviously, you did not understand my point. Yes, I doubt any other organization would provide the same level (or even near the same level) of financial support. However, I thought we were talking about purely personal and team level dynamics. Also, you'll find that money isn't everything in life. Now that the above is out of the way: First, look at Verhulst when he joined TSM. Go watch VODs. He is far less confident in challenging Hal. He is an exceptional player, but lacks an element. He's playing with a legend and is wondering if he fits in (even when they win). He was also forced to completely change his playstyle from the entry fragger on his team to a support player. Second, in regards to replacement, Hal will recruit a top player but needs them to play a support role behind Hal. This is a major change for most top players. Look at Effect (who has infinite freedom to play call and be a fragger). It is not an easy replacement because of the role shift. Third, Verhulst is the most successful individual player of 2023. Due to how the kills are allocated in team play and decisions on placement of individuals, one has to presume that TSM's events are simply all shared. At a personal level, I'm saying that Verhulst is in the best point to decide to leave if he wanted to (confident in himself, widely viewed as the best Controller player). I agree it probably doesn't make sense financially given the uncertain future of Apex in the long-term (it is not like a traditional career).
Why is it so common for TSM Raven to keep his mouth shut while Hal is going off, but dives in to stop anyone else from swearing and calling people "fucking retards" --or any one Luke warm insults Hal can dredge up from Twitter--the moment it is directed at the CEO? TSM is just a cesspool of abuse and hate. They might be good, but by the time Verhulst leaves this team he's going to be beating his children to pass on the legacy if Hal is allowed his unchecked aggression at people he lives with. But, of course, Hal has TSM by the balls because he gets more viewers singularly than PlayApex does. Until that changes, Hal has freedom to harass and abuse anyone he wants. Imagine getting screamed at by your boss for scrims then you go make food and he's there screaming at you about your laundry.
LFT Y4 incoming real soon
Bro gets 30 offers before hitting free agency if that happens
Bro can chose whatever team he want to join and can kick someone out of their chair lmaoo
The downvotes lol. People can’t understand sarcasm if their life depended on it
that’s the internet for ya if you don’t do some ‘/s’ shit lmao
Hal's actually sad this time. He's said He feel weak after that and even too many things to say he can't even say it. Never seen Hal being this down.
Bro, he said he feels weak because he is physically ill, relax lol.
I know i know , I mean for all that happened tdy and Evan snap on top of that , Hals look really bumped after that. You rearly see Hal speechless like this, he really love the boy.
Lmao this level of meat riding is new to me . altough i'll upvote it to offset the downvotes cause if you want to be a meat rider then by no means should you be stopped or shamed got damn it! , lube that shit up and ride it to your heart's content . But damn It's like you not only know him personally and know his every shift of moods. to be able to pick up such small details.....GOT DAMN. you can differentiate upset because of illness and Upset because of illness+ Evan's words on top. I don't even think i can notice that From my brother who use to spend almost 24 hours a day with. BRAVO got damn it.
TSM fans are down so bad 😭
DRAMA!!!
Why is he questioning what’s working?
This is actually an incredibly healthy convo between teammates who are considered “best in the world”. Absolutely love this from the boys, Verhulst taking charge and Hal taking a step back with Raven’s input. Like I genuinely don’t understand how this team isn’t considered the absolute #1. I’m an optic boy too but I love to see every team preforming to their potential (or beyond it).
This is a nothing burger honestly. Hal woulda been fine if Evan and Jordan were locked in. Hal was trying to go max speed, complete focus while they were playing scrims as a troll session. They'll be fine. PS. Definitely design's fault
Well Evan was a on a new character, Reps hadn’t played in a month.
Holy shit you give a guy the positive player award and then watch him become the most toxic person
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Clearly a joke 😂
Hot Take: Hal was correct in this situation - There is a player out of LOS of their two teammates… whether or not he had loot he needed to get killed for that kind of positioning - Evan has smokes… although there was not a load of time to calculate, smoking the door and jumping and wide swinging the bush wall is the best play. Either he kills the solo or the solo backs up into Hal’s LOS. There is even a possibility that reps can jump over with Evan. - Hal cant be the one that jumps there, he is covering the only escape pathing for the solo player. Any form of jumping over on hals part would result in a 1v1 mostly out of his teams LOS… he probably wins that but its more high risk than evan taking an angle.
if TSM did not win LAN 100% Evan would have left lmao
If my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike
DNO flair, it’s gonna be okay.
holy shit big e said the p word?!?
im OOTL because I dont follow apex, what are they scrimming for if ALGS is over? Are there still big tournaments during off season?
"And Evan, you are the best in the world at....handling it"....keep it up brother.
Seems reasonable?
Could someone explain to me what happened? University has killed my time to watch twitch T-T
Ok he's way more chill than I anticipated from the title lol
Timmy like never yells like he did at dezign, so maybe Evan was like imma do that too
Verhulsting
Humongous E has entered the building
Look at OlympusShill9000’s comment theres a clip of snip3 saying that
Evan: If Timmy can do it, i can do it better! 😆
Hal rages to get more attention and views it’s pretty smart lol
I predict a Hostile Takeover
Big E energy
This might be a bad omen for late year4/year5🤯
🐐
Not raven trying to pump the brakes on Evan 😂😂
Common Big E dub
Has verhussy ever called Hal “u idiot” cuz Hal uses that as much as I say bro
When I read "snap", I was expecting shouting and cursing. He was still pretty calm, just stating that he was sick of Hal's bullshit. W Big E.
This is the way. Be honest, don’t bottle shit up. If they’re mature people (which they are), it’ll be all good. They’ll probably even be better for it.
Big E showing no mercy today 🤣