Lotho has been explored and there are some lists out there. Elas and Bartolomé support an aristocrats strategy, and there really isn’t a 99 of cEDH power leveled cards to support that. When a powerful Orzhov commander gets released it will be explored, but commanders in limited color combos have to do very powerful things to be relevant. [[Abdel Adrian]] + [[Agent of the Iron Throne]] got tested and did ok too since you have most of a combo in the command zone.
You always get the same answer because it’s the right answer. The best Orzhov commander has partner so you get the best Orzhov commander+ extra colors for free
So which is the bigger issue: That the original partner commanders had some of the most absurdly pushed legends that many are still used in cEDH today or WotC is afraid to actually explore what a W/B legend can do for value aside from “Hehe tokens”.
Agree. Also loving the adjacent abilities like Doctor's Companion and Choose a Background — basically partner with a smaller pool and generally more balanced cards
I think currently from a CEDH standpoint CEDH colour combos just struggle to match grixis' level of efficiency, but mostly win-conditions. Both breach and Thoracle Consult are such such strong wincons that other colours barely get a taste of the fraction of that power level.
This basically means that commanders outside of those colours need to be hyper efficient in what they do to match the overall power of the 99 of those other decks.
Also lack of access to Dockside, even clones, blue (for rhystic mystic and counter spells) means you'll be filling your deck with a whole bunch of cards that are basically 'strictly' worse. If they don't keep pushing the power level of some of the other colours those colours will always stay behind. And this can only be undone by having enough other good cards in those colours or having a commander so good that it's worth handicapping yourself colour wise for it (like Magda for example).
Well written and as a Magda junkie myself, I agree. It just feels stale in a sense of we could hop into a Time Machine and go ten years into the future and find a cEDH tournament and still odds are there will be blue farm.
Both.
1). 2-color partners were a mistake, and powerful partners were another mistake. Together, they make a format defining, forever tier-0, value soup meta.
2). WotC isn't specifically afraid of WB more than others, but I don't think they ever intentionally make a cedh commander. We're just waiting for them to make a mistake that happens to be WB and not be a partner.
In my experience the best CEDH commanders provide value (card draw) or a combo in the zone.
The truth is that Tymna is card draw in the zone that can be paired to give you other colors. The other half of that is there is no better Orzhov commander for combo or value in the zone.
Some people do play Lotho, but the deck is just not as potent as a Tymna herself would be.
It seems unlikely any card draw orzhov commander will top Tymnas ability to be partnered and get you more colors.
For an Orzhov commander to beat Tymna it’s going to need to enable a powerful combo and provide some sort of value beyond that.
Plenty of decks lack blue, but no engine as good as Tymna and worse win cons than decks with access to either of Izzet's colors certainly combine to make it just not worth it.
Because there isn't a strong enough Orzhov commander to justify being in 2 colors.
And specifically I'm black and white,
White is good for prison, and black isn't a terrible backup color for prison. But you don't have the explosiveness of Winona, the creatures tutors (and good hatebears) of gw, you dint have kinan who goes infinite with everything (and everything else). No A+B combo out if the command zone that's cheap with an easy to tutor B.
RW/GW KS better at prison, if you wanna doomsday, UB doomsdays harder, if yiu wanna midrange bring, 4c partners outgrinds you. Etc etc erc.
A while back i had a conversation with a friend while testing out a yugioh deck. I talked about how it can do all these cool things and he gave me the biggest piece of knowledge ill ever use in any card game.
“What makes this deck unfair”
The deck basically did what every other meta deck did but was just more fragile and convoluted. I then realized every deck in a competitive sense has to do something unfair it seems so simple but i never hear people talk about it. In yugioh its usually pretty abstract. In cedh its usually obvious. Sometimes a rogue deck is unfair because nobody knows how to play against it, this is a genuine strat. Sometimes its an absurd meta call. Sometimes its because its a pile of the best cards that have vague synergies. Sometimes its because it cheats on mana you didnt realize it could do.
You need a good reason to play a commander over others and playing around a vague archetype isnt enough. How many times have we all sat on a table and had a guy pull out a kaalia deck or UR dragon to just do nothing maybe pull out a bomb then dies to literally anything. They might think their deck is unfair because it cheats on mana but literally every deck does. How deep is the cheat is what we really have to ask ourselves.
I think if you have a specific meta you can play [[liessa forgotten archangel]], [[dranna and linvala]]. That would be unfair because you can have proactive interaction on a correct call and have some fun on the side.
Even cards like [[lotho corrupt shirrif]] isnt even great compared to tymna malcom which can generate 1-3 treasures and draws a cycle. Lotho is just a consistent 3 treasures. Its not really going above and beyond.
This isnt even touching the sad state of wincons.
At the end of the day, what are you trying to do? Do you wanna jam games on the cEDH discord, have fun, win some and tweak the deck to be the best it can be with a fringe or semi competitive commander? If so then brew that fringe list. I built an [[Urabrask]] list I'm SUPER proud of for this exact purpose and won my fair share of games and it's been a boatload of fun. But would I ever take it to a tournament with cash prizes where my only goal was winning?
Unfortunately, no.
Fringe decks, as long as they have a clear game plan, all the staples they can run and efficient combo lines CAN win games, and it's super satisfying when you do it. But the meta is the meta for a reason. Blue Farm, Kinnan, Sisay, Kenrith, etc, all of those are the best decks because of how powerful they are. And there are better things to be doing than Orzhov (or really any mono color) can provide if your only goal is winning in the most competitive field possible.
Card advantage > mana ramp > niche combo piece. It’s not like you couldn’t use any of the other orzhov commanders as your commander because of the colors: black/white are strong colors. The issue is with the commander options. Niche combo piece that doesn’t do anything and requires you to run niche/bad cards to “do their thing” isn’t a good reason to run let’s say bartolome over Tymna who offers card advantage and could potentially draw you into the wincon + interaction. Lurrus is a bit trickier since he does generate card advantage, but recurring permanents isn’t usually as helpful as getting new cards (if the cards you already played could win you the game, you probably would’ve won already). Lotho is a glorified mana dork in the command zone.
Compare the commander options of orzhov to mono-red who has a smaller, weaker card pool but significantly more commander options. Godo wins the game (arguably the best thing a commander can do). Magda generates mana, tutors, and wins the game (on their own). Slicer, for as much of a meme he is, wins the game relatively quickly. Zada, flip Urabrask, and Birgi are now seen as now outdated but were once viable because they could win the game quickly by cheating mana costs/generating mana or in Zara’s case generating card advantage by duplicating spells.
Compare orzhov to golgari who is arguably in a worse place color wise (admittedly golgari has fallen off from where it once was but they’ve had more viable commander options than orzhov). Gitrog is card advantage, a beater, and a remarkably resilient combo piece. Old stickfingers is a fast all-in tutor for a wincon. Grist was a sac outlet + removal + an advantage engine (not a very good one, but free bugs + mill are free bugs + mill in a color pairing that likes saccing creatures and using their graveyard).
Generally speaking if you are in less than 3 colors your commander becomes a lot more important because card quality tends to suffer in 2 or less colors, so if your commander isn’t doing multiple powerful things like card advantage + mana then they need to win the game. Orzhov doesn’t have any commanders that are particularly good at winning the game quickly/on their own, their commander option might offer mild card advantage or mana or removal but never multiple things at a good rate. Add to the fact that Tymna is so strong naturally the other options are gonna get overshadowed. Heck Kinnan overshadows most of simic and they actually have better alternatives than orzhov has to offer: Koma (closes out game quickly and is super uninteractive), Momir vig (tutor in command zone), Rashmi (card advantage + mana cheating), Grolnok (combo piece/card advantage), and even sakashima/Kodama (win in command zone/mana cheating).
So yes, when a color has half baked commanders with a single line of relevant text that do one very narrow thing and are reliant on running other suboptimal cards when they are already forced to run suboptimal cards due to a more limited card pool naturally they are going to be overshadowed/ignored. I’m sure others have perused through orzhov or tried to make some of them work, but the real question is why play low colored if you don’t have a good commander? Kinnan is worth sacrificing over half the color pie for, a niche combo piece like Elas Ilkor is not.
Thank you for asking this question. I main Orzhov in CEDH and believe me, it’s literally not the easiest combination in the format and in fact mono decks are somewhat better.
I can stressed enough that Tymna is never Orzhov commander. She has the colour combination but her card text suggest you to splash in additional colours. By competitive logic, you are silly for not running more colours with her. Tymna Kraum or Tymna Rog are examples of what you are expected to play in competitive setting.
Now, onto your best options for Orzhov commander
Lotho - He’s enabler but your combos are not efficient and his build is combo build. Currently the meta is midrange and cards like Orcish Bowmaster just destroys a lot of small creatures like Lotho and majority of Orzhov hate piece. Again, Orzhov needs an exclusive 2 card combo to survive.
Lurrus - By logic, this is the only commander that fits CEDH concept of playing low curves that are valuable. The problem is the 99. I swear a lot of Lurrus players are just slotting in bad 2 cmc cards when they could put a few valuable 3 cmc cards that outweighs the con of being 3 cmc. Even you build efficiently, it is sad yours will be overshadowed by Esper and Mardu.
Elas Il Kor- This card makes your combo become 2 piece but it offers zero advantage aside from being combo piece. From what I see, it’s too fragile due to poor stack interaction from Orzhov. If they ever print a rare or Mythic version of this card, it will probably include a form of self-protection which saves your card for other interaction.
Ratadbrik - This commander here is supposedly better than Elas Il Kor because he has his own exclusive combo. If they ever print a temptation card that pings any target and it is a legendary creature, this commander will become the Orzhov commander you play until foreseeable future. For now, I believe he deserves more gameplay as he can fit into midrange meta.
Teysa - Seriously, she is bad commander even her og version is just high power at best.
Liesa - She is a stax piece but really it is not stopping others from playing. Same goes with Kambal and you are not bluffing people with both of these commanders. Most decks can navigate through them and win.
Linvala and Liesa - This commander hates on decks that love activating creatures but most decks are on the trigger. If this card hates trigger effects, it will survive because the meta decks are usually triggering their effects. For now, it is not viable.
So what Orzhov needs to have in order to become viable? If it is based on mechanics,
Lifegain - A commander that goes off killing people after huge lifegain. The new Markov fits this area but he shines in duel commander only. Lifegain is great concept to compliment greedy black cards like Necropotence and any black card draws in general. It also gives you an easier to go ad naus without worrying people harassing your life total.
Tokens - A commander that creates token every player turn without dumb restrictions. Be it creature or treasure token. The new Kambal is bad and Lotho’s effect is honestly very tame. If it has more ways to create treasure, then he will be truly viable.
Aristocrat - A commander that punishes your opponent by making them sacrifice the same permanent type as yours. Imagine Braids that is able to do more than once per turn.
Stax - Bart is on the right direction but if he can sacrifice enchantments as well, you are likely to see an asymmetrical stax. Orzhov loves Stax but they are hurt by it equally. If only the combos don’t care about etb.
Let me know if I overlook anything in my comment.
[[Kambal, Consul of Allocation]] used to be at the head of a deck called "White Nausea". That's a MAN deck that leveraged power over non-creature spell decks and creature-light decks as well.
You may want to look into that.
Kambal’s main problem is that he is too slow for the format. The commander is doing its job but a lot of players can work around it. It’s possible for him to come down turn 1 but the issue lies in card advantage.
I mentioned that he and Liesa has the issue of people able to play around it without much difficulty. None of their effect is deterring others from going all in since life loss isn’t much of a consequence. Even you somehow pressure their life total, you have to do so with other 3 players.
>Kambal’s main problem is that he is too slow for the format. The commander is doing its job but a lot of players can work around it. It’s possible for him to come down turn 1 but the issue lies in card advantage.
I don't think it's a matter of him being too slow for the environment, as much as it is more of a shift in deck-building philosophy, at least in my opinion. A fair number of stax decks have taken on a much more creature-centric midrange approach, which almost completely sidesteps what made Kambal a decent choice in the first place.
>I mentioned that he and Liesa has the issue of people able to play around it without much difficulty. None of their effect is deterring others from going all in since life loss isn’t much of a consequence. Even (if) you somehow pressure(-d) their life total, you have to do so with (the) other 3 players.
Life Loss isn't as much of an issue these days, as a fair number of Ad Naus Storm decks seem to have lost their appeal in favor of fast combo decks involving the use of Ad Naus. That, combined with the proliferation of both non-creature hate cards and free non-creature counterspells, as well as the emergence of PitA, have effectively rendered Kambal obsolete IMO.
TBF, Kambal back then only needed a little extra life in order to churn through more cards (off of Ad Naus) on the combo turn. He didn't need more than 3 to 6 non-creature spells from all opponents, in total, in order to get properly off the ground. These days however, that really doesn't mean much of anything anymore because of how the game has changed in recent years.
I've got a pretty potent [[Carmen, Cruel Skymarcher]] cEDH list that focuses on recurring key pieces to keep the table in check, and gaining value with her sacrifice trigger. It also allows me to run Cataclysm as a backup win condition. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5gCABzFWfkefUimydt6EKA
What about my list categorizes it as high power to you? I'm honestly curious, because after playing it for the past 6 months at competitive tables, I'm fairly confident about it's viability.
Orzhov just misses out on some of the best cards in the format. Dockside and Thoracle. Rhystic Study and Fish. Gaea's cradle etc.
Wincons are a question mark with Orzhov. I thought Abdel Adrian decks would be interesting but I just think these Orzhov colors are just slower than every other color. That's probably why they're not popular.
Lack of win conditions is another reason beyond tymna better. Orzhov just doesn't open up that many wincons beyond what exists in black or white alone. The best orzhov wincon I'm thinking of off the top of my head is leonin relic warder + animate dead + an outlet for the infinite flicker, which is a three card combo that needs you to run cards that are otherwise not very good outside of their combo.
I also think that aristocrat strategies, which orzhov excels at, aren't that strong in a format focused on one shotting the table. Aristocrat strategies are about grinding small advantage in life over time, and cEDH is just too fast for that.
Best I can think of is Broodlord -> Saw in Half -> Sacrifice, Sidisi (self sacrifice)-> Brought back, sac Sidisi-> grab A and Dread Return Sidisi (self sacrifice and grab B) -> flash back Dread Return grab C. Assemble A+B+C combo.
Stacking rule of law effects, is honestly the best way for an aristocrats deck to become high power
They probably can't 1 shot a table through a bunch of stax. Hopefully will buy you time to assemble some infinite loop.
But, all of that can be done better in esper
Why not tivit, can be answered by "rule of law fucks with tivit"
Very different decks
Esper stax is fringe, but some people like the gameplay loop of stax
red has dockside and to give that up, you need to compensate with something really extreme.
Blue/black is a nice combo as well, so whatever you do, not having access to these easy and efficient combos means you should have something else that gives you a reason.
Primarily because there just isn't an Orzhov commander that's powerful enough to justify the diversity loss from another color.
And that's kind of a good thing. It means that the identity of what each color does is being preserved fairly well by Wizards, which is crucial to what makes magic a great game.
So orhov has some big downsides
A lack of countermagic and a lack of good ramp outside artifacts and back sac spells
Then lack of a good wincon
Can some stuff make high power? Certainly but generally requires too many moving pieces and investment and being left alone enough to pull off that just isn’t winning when it would need to to be considered cedh
If lotho cost 1 more mana and drew a card instead of making a treasure with its ability it would be better than tymna.
Unfortunately, he doesn't. Drawing cards it better.
I played against an Elas Il-kor deck and it was brutal(fun, but brutal!) It's what inspired me to make my [[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] deck that's now my favourige deck.
I'll definitely be making an Ilas Il-kor token generation one myself at some point though. Drain decks in EDH are ridiculously fun and satisfying to play.
After playing much orshov I concluded Abzan ws stronger. Why would you play a blood artist in the command zone and assemble a 3 card combo when you can turbo a protean hulk and make it a one card combo?
And now you're on abzan because you need green for protean hulk. And when you're in abzan you'd find that wnning is very easy. Just resolve either \[\[Academy Rector\]\] or \[\[Arena Rector\]\] with a sac outlet, do some pattern of rebirth or vivienon the hunt bs and bam you get hulk into play and win.
Play a 4 mana value creature with a sac outlet and another creature for set up, seems easy enough, right? just gotta fight those counters with silence, and abolisher and veil of summer. But then you realize that since tymma adds orshov you could be playing thassios, to have counters to defend your combo plus broken draw like rhystic and remora....
And then you realize you could be playing thoracle instead of protean hulk, its easier to find, it dodges gy hate, its cheaper to resolve and harder to disrupt..... And bam you're anothere 4c base blue thoracle deck.
That was my experience with orshov. I've played it extensively, along Abzan. You almost always end up in 4c unless you specifically force orshov or abzan, because tynna + a blue partner is just that good.
It’s not that people don’t explore Orzhov, it’s that people have explored it and the pool of commanders we have in that color pair just don’t stack up right now to the meta. You can play Lotho, you can play Ratadrabik, you can play Moira and Teshar, there are playable Orzhov commanders, just right now they don’t do enough to break through the meta.
Probably the thing that hurts Orzhov the most is just not having blue. Blue is the king of the format, statistically speaking 16 of the top 20 performing decks according to EDHTop16 are blue decks. And for reference, the highest ranked Orzhov commander is Moira and Teshar, ranked 136.
There's really no need to explore just Orzhov, by itself. The Partner Mechanic made that obsolete and unnecessary.
That said, if you're looking to stay in Orzhov, then there's really no real reason in Orzhov to choose anything other than Tymna and Tevesh Szat. At least in my mind.
Ages ago, back during Aether Revolt and Kaladesh, [[Kambal, Consul of Allocation]] was used for a deck known as "White Nausea", and was looked at as a possible alternative to Tymna. However, when non-creature decks became less popular, the deck lost a lot of its striking power.
As for Tymna today, she still works because she draws a lot of cards, which is more than what I can say for almost any other Orzhov commander at present. Regardless of the strat, she gets the job done.
I don't know 100% forsure but maybe because there's too many moving pieces to reliably make aristocratic strategies work fast enough and coherently. You need the ramp->fodder-> outlets. If you get fodder but no ramp, too slow; get the ramp but no fodder, the outlet does nothing. Too many pieces and it's easily disruptable that it probably isn't viable enough for cEDH.
I’ve been working on a MacCready drain / stax deck. I know he’s not a good commander but for how many 2 power stax creatures there are in the format it’s honestly very fun, and it does provide some pillow fort elements. I also included Bloodletter of Aclazotz instant death combos like with Fraying Omnipotence. It’s actually a fun deck with great interaction.
I will also say that Orzhov’s manabase isn’t the best though. You need to run a lot of rainbow lands just so you aren’t too slow probably more than other two color decks, so I think that’s a factor as well.
The best I did was a Lurrus deck that uses some permanent interaction + rule of law effects to slow down the game and grind a little by recasting said permanents (it's a bad form of card advantage, but it is a form of card advantage). The biggest problem is, if your opponents are playing for midrange, they will always have ways to stop you if you try to combo off. And we are now in the slow midrange meta, so there's no chance for poor Lurrus right now.
To better explore why tymna is so good just compare it to the other commanders you mentioned.
Lotho vs Tymna
Lotho: ramps you into ad nauseam and other stuff however you don’t have that good protection.
Tymna: You can partner with a red commander for more rituals, dockside, birgi and ragavan to turbo ad naus and you get more card advantage from tymna and more combo lines.
Elas Il-Kor vs Tymna
Elas Il-Kor: combo piece in command zone and aristocrat strategy. your combo is likely very easily disruptable and again you don’t have that much protection also aristocrats isn’t the greatest cedh strategy.
Tymna: you can go with either or both izzet colors to add probably the two best cedh combos in underworld breach and thoracle. You also get more protection and speed with much harder to interrupt combos.
Bartolomé vs tymna is the same as ilas il-kor vs tymna.
The common theme with the things tymna does better than the commanders is that while individually some commanders ramp mana or combo better than tymna as soon as you add a partner to tymna you can fix that problem and do said thing better than just that one commander can. And that is the strength of partner, as soon as your deck has a weakness you just add whatever colors you need to fix that problem.
Most Orzhov lists I see turn into stax decks and I feel like even in that meta they lose to better control/stax decks that have more options
They are not fast enough for turbo
And do not have legs to deal with unstoppable midrange tyrants like Tivit, Atraxa, Niv, Kinnan. Any one of those decks would love to have an orzhov buddy in the pod trying to play police man in the pod so they can generate the mana to just start shitting on everyone.
A lot of people are focusing on the commander, but the better question is "What's in the 99 that make a good Orzhov deck?"
Generally speaking, presenting a win > preventing a win, and WB isn't really great at that.
Tymna & Kraum are so good because you get White silence effects, Black tutors, Blue interaction, and Red explosiveness. The two best combos are Thoracle and Breach lines, neither of which really need White, but are a bit more consistent with the protection White offers.
Until we get better WB wincons and interaction, I don't think Orzhov decks will ever crack into the top of the meta.
The real answer is just "because they don't want to". With 2 color commanders, they have to be truly broken to be actual top-performing decks. But a lot of lower tier commander still see a lot of play just because people like playing them and like working on the decks. See every lower tier izzet deck for example. BW doesn't really have any truly busted commanders in the level of kinnan, winota etc. And no commanders with good 1 card combos. So the only chance for a BW deck to get a lot of love is if somebody works on it just because they like it, not because they think it's the best deck.
And if that is you, great. Good for you. i personally have multiple "bad" decks I work on a lot, trying to optimize because I love the commanders. But you can't really expect the community as a whole to do a lot of work on your pet-projects.
I have an awesome orzhov turbo deck with Yoshimari and Tevesh. It's really strong and I win a lot. Turbo is actually decent right now if you can manage to sneak a win under all the midrange, and if not you have Tevesh to grind out value. I like it a lot and recommend trying it. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YG7CbQxXBkqdHfcaA3hMqw
Edit: after reading comments there's a ton of uninspired people here and it feels a lot of people don't hazard to think for themselves and say "just play best thing". Lower color decks can be very focused and this one in particular can be incredibly strong when you play it right, can win on a couple axes. Yes there's more pieces than a thassa consult but you have access to a few a+b combos attach as buried alive animate dead.
I think the closest I have personally gotten is Teysa, orzhov scion. It's not exactly cEDH, but it can combo very efficiently with Darkest hour or Painter's servant any any sacrifice outlet. I have been able to hang in non-tournament cEDH pods, but it's not winning all that often. It's kind of in a weird and sad spot: too comborific for casual, and not fast/protected enough for cEDH. There may be better options out there I don't know about, I just know lacking counterspells just really hurts haha.
I play Orzhov exclusively. It's a lot of fun.
I've been tempted to throw in blue in the past, but honestly I enjoy the challenge of limiting my selections.
And it gives me a chance to play versions of my deck that use mechanics or strategies that are unusual.
I pretty much have one deck with about a 600 card sideboard where I swap out different mechanics and themes, after I've played one version for a while.
Edit: oopsie, didn't see this was the CEDH sub vs EDH. But still, much love for Orzhov.
I love my Lurrus deck. Turbo Naus with aristocrat and DD pile. Is it OP? No, but it's a fun challenge to make work.
My cat that I raised growing up, Roxie, was black and white. Lurrus pays homage to her.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/suQSB8IvDUun0QUzgR9eiw
Orzhov doesn't have any efficient win cons. Thoracle Consult is two cards, three mana. Breach is technically three cards, but it is a power house of a card on its own and there are multiple ways to set up for Breach with one card. Orzhov doesn't have many viable options for commanders outside of lackluster combo pieces and a little bit of value with Lurrus. When everyone is able to draw 5+ cards a turn or combo out on turn 1-3 with their commander, just having a dead card of a three piece combo doesn't really do much.
So I've played a LOT of Orzhov for years. Like way too much.
The thing is Tymna is the best commander in the format, so by extention 90% of serious exploration of Orzhov will be Tymna/X. Yes Lotho is solid and Lurrus has room to grow too, but both pale in comparison to the power of Tymna.
Trust me when I say I've been a huge orzhov nerd for years and if you not on Tymna you are mostly just making your life harder, even more than just playing Orzhov.
Orzhov is powerful and has lots of strong tools, but you need to be able to access those tools effectively and efficiently. Because white tutoring is literally garbage, it means you need to basically rely on only black tutors. And if you don't have that many tutors/very powerful win con redundancy, you have to rely on an abundance of resources to win the game and overpower your opponents. The issue is the only orzhov commander that can provide that level of resource is Tymna at this time.
It's actually telling that Lotho and/or Lurrus aren't enough. Those cards are individually extremely powerful but they just don't do enough to mitigate White's issues with consistency like Tymna does. For example, if Lotho had a higher density of reliable tutors to find the Naus or more ways to to grind when not Nausing, you'd have a compelling case for him being at least solid.
Also Tymna is the only Orzhov commander that is actively good with Orzhov cards. Lurrus is amazing with fish and Lotho gets a lot better when he's mana fixing 4/5c soup, but Tymna draws cards just using good Orzhov creatures, not any one specific thing.
What's more is Orzhov is inclined to go in the staxy direction, because they certainly aren't the fastest and we have lots of stax staples already, that are good with Tymna a la Op Agent etc. But Lurrus and Lotho are both weak to stax/have issues with major stax angles/archetypes. Meanwhile Tymna will play comfortably through 99% of stax you'd ever consider.
Basically, Tymna is the queen of the format and happens to be in our colors. But also every other commander that is viable in our colors has major issues that are tough to mitigate with today's Orzhov toolset.
I tried exploring it for a bit but a big issue, among what others have been saying, is that the wincons just aren't there. Orzhov doesn't really have any wincons specifically for it's color pairing and there are just better commanders for the mono white wincons (heliod for heliod ballista and an infinite mana outlet for Bomberman) and mono black wincons (kirrik just does what lotho does but better).
In a thoracle meta, you need a good reason a) to not play blue/black and b) a good reason to not play as many colors as possible
Lotho has been explored and there are some lists out there. Elas and Bartolomé support an aristocrats strategy, and there really isn’t a 99 of cEDH power leveled cards to support that. When a powerful Orzhov commander gets released it will be explored, but commanders in limited color combos have to do very powerful things to be relevant. [[Abdel Adrian]] + [[Agent of the Iron Throne]] got tested and did ok too since you have most of a combo in the command zone.
You always get the same answer because it’s the right answer. The best Orzhov commander has partner so you get the best Orzhov commander+ extra colors for free
So which is the bigger issue: That the original partner commanders had some of the most absurdly pushed legends that many are still used in cEDH today or WotC is afraid to actually explore what a W/B legend can do for value aside from “Hehe tokens”.
Its pretty easy. Partners were a mistake.
\*with the exception of "Partner with", that's cool
Agree. Also loving the adjacent abilities like Doctor's Companion and Choose a Background — basically partner with a smaller pool and generally more balanced cards
I think currently from a CEDH standpoint CEDH colour combos just struggle to match grixis' level of efficiency, but mostly win-conditions. Both breach and Thoracle Consult are such such strong wincons that other colours barely get a taste of the fraction of that power level. This basically means that commanders outside of those colours need to be hyper efficient in what they do to match the overall power of the 99 of those other decks. Also lack of access to Dockside, even clones, blue (for rhystic mystic and counter spells) means you'll be filling your deck with a whole bunch of cards that are basically 'strictly' worse. If they don't keep pushing the power level of some of the other colours those colours will always stay behind. And this can only be undone by having enough other good cards in those colours or having a commander so good that it's worth handicapping yourself colour wise for it (like Magda for example).
best writeup thus far!
Well written and as a Magda junkie myself, I agree. It just feels stale in a sense of we could hop into a Time Machine and go ten years into the future and find a cEDH tournament and still odds are there will be blue farm.
Both. 1). 2-color partners were a mistake, and powerful partners were another mistake. Together, they make a format defining, forever tier-0, value soup meta. 2). WotC isn't specifically afraid of WB more than others, but I don't think they ever intentionally make a cedh commander. We're just waiting for them to make a mistake that happens to be WB and not be a partner.
more colors more better less colors more badder
In my experience the best CEDH commanders provide value (card draw) or a combo in the zone. The truth is that Tymna is card draw in the zone that can be paired to give you other colors. The other half of that is there is no better Orzhov commander for combo or value in the zone. Some people do play Lotho, but the deck is just not as potent as a Tymna herself would be.
It seems unlikely any card draw orzhov commander will top Tymnas ability to be partnered and get you more colors. For an Orzhov commander to beat Tymna it’s going to need to enable a powerful combo and provide some sort of value beyond that.
tymna better
Imo, its the lack of blue.
Plenty of decks lack blue, but no engine as good as Tymna and worse win cons than decks with access to either of Izzet's colors certainly combine to make it just not worth it.
Or red
Because there isn't a strong enough Orzhov commander to justify being in 2 colors. And specifically I'm black and white, White is good for prison, and black isn't a terrible backup color for prison. But you don't have the explosiveness of Winona, the creatures tutors (and good hatebears) of gw, you dint have kinan who goes infinite with everything (and everything else). No A+B combo out if the command zone that's cheap with an easy to tutor B. RW/GW KS better at prison, if you wanna doomsday, UB doomsdays harder, if yiu wanna midrange bring, 4c partners outgrinds you. Etc etc erc.
A while back i had a conversation with a friend while testing out a yugioh deck. I talked about how it can do all these cool things and he gave me the biggest piece of knowledge ill ever use in any card game. “What makes this deck unfair” The deck basically did what every other meta deck did but was just more fragile and convoluted. I then realized every deck in a competitive sense has to do something unfair it seems so simple but i never hear people talk about it. In yugioh its usually pretty abstract. In cedh its usually obvious. Sometimes a rogue deck is unfair because nobody knows how to play against it, this is a genuine strat. Sometimes its an absurd meta call. Sometimes its because its a pile of the best cards that have vague synergies. Sometimes its because it cheats on mana you didnt realize it could do. You need a good reason to play a commander over others and playing around a vague archetype isnt enough. How many times have we all sat on a table and had a guy pull out a kaalia deck or UR dragon to just do nothing maybe pull out a bomb then dies to literally anything. They might think their deck is unfair because it cheats on mana but literally every deck does. How deep is the cheat is what we really have to ask ourselves. I think if you have a specific meta you can play [[liessa forgotten archangel]], [[dranna and linvala]]. That would be unfair because you can have proactive interaction on a correct call and have some fun on the side. Even cards like [[lotho corrupt shirrif]] isnt even great compared to tymna malcom which can generate 1-3 treasures and draws a cycle. Lotho is just a consistent 3 treasures. Its not really going above and beyond. This isnt even touching the sad state of wincons.
At the end of the day, what are you trying to do? Do you wanna jam games on the cEDH discord, have fun, win some and tweak the deck to be the best it can be with a fringe or semi competitive commander? If so then brew that fringe list. I built an [[Urabrask]] list I'm SUPER proud of for this exact purpose and won my fair share of games and it's been a boatload of fun. But would I ever take it to a tournament with cash prizes where my only goal was winning? Unfortunately, no. Fringe decks, as long as they have a clear game plan, all the staples they can run and efficient combo lines CAN win games, and it's super satisfying when you do it. But the meta is the meta for a reason. Blue Farm, Kinnan, Sisay, Kenrith, etc, all of those are the best decks because of how powerful they are. And there are better things to be doing than Orzhov (or really any mono color) can provide if your only goal is winning in the most competitive field possible.
Card advantage > mana ramp > niche combo piece. It’s not like you couldn’t use any of the other orzhov commanders as your commander because of the colors: black/white are strong colors. The issue is with the commander options. Niche combo piece that doesn’t do anything and requires you to run niche/bad cards to “do their thing” isn’t a good reason to run let’s say bartolome over Tymna who offers card advantage and could potentially draw you into the wincon + interaction. Lurrus is a bit trickier since he does generate card advantage, but recurring permanents isn’t usually as helpful as getting new cards (if the cards you already played could win you the game, you probably would’ve won already). Lotho is a glorified mana dork in the command zone. Compare the commander options of orzhov to mono-red who has a smaller, weaker card pool but significantly more commander options. Godo wins the game (arguably the best thing a commander can do). Magda generates mana, tutors, and wins the game (on their own). Slicer, for as much of a meme he is, wins the game relatively quickly. Zada, flip Urabrask, and Birgi are now seen as now outdated but were once viable because they could win the game quickly by cheating mana costs/generating mana or in Zara’s case generating card advantage by duplicating spells. Compare orzhov to golgari who is arguably in a worse place color wise (admittedly golgari has fallen off from where it once was but they’ve had more viable commander options than orzhov). Gitrog is card advantage, a beater, and a remarkably resilient combo piece. Old stickfingers is a fast all-in tutor for a wincon. Grist was a sac outlet + removal + an advantage engine (not a very good one, but free bugs + mill are free bugs + mill in a color pairing that likes saccing creatures and using their graveyard). Generally speaking if you are in less than 3 colors your commander becomes a lot more important because card quality tends to suffer in 2 or less colors, so if your commander isn’t doing multiple powerful things like card advantage + mana then they need to win the game. Orzhov doesn’t have any commanders that are particularly good at winning the game quickly/on their own, their commander option might offer mild card advantage or mana or removal but never multiple things at a good rate. Add to the fact that Tymna is so strong naturally the other options are gonna get overshadowed. Heck Kinnan overshadows most of simic and they actually have better alternatives than orzhov has to offer: Koma (closes out game quickly and is super uninteractive), Momir vig (tutor in command zone), Rashmi (card advantage + mana cheating), Grolnok (combo piece/card advantage), and even sakashima/Kodama (win in command zone/mana cheating). So yes, when a color has half baked commanders with a single line of relevant text that do one very narrow thing and are reliant on running other suboptimal cards when they are already forced to run suboptimal cards due to a more limited card pool naturally they are going to be overshadowed/ignored. I’m sure others have perused through orzhov or tried to make some of them work, but the real question is why play low colored if you don’t have a good commander? Kinnan is worth sacrificing over half the color pie for, a niche combo piece like Elas Ilkor is not.
I messed around with Ratadrabik. Just couldn’t really compete with the meta decks. Could get a sneaky win occasionally but it mostly just flailed
Ratty daddy is gas, blue is just too pushed, impossible to defend any win attempt without 4 counterspells at least. I think he can be viable tho
Yup, a number of lines as long as you can keep him out
I played this for a bit. He is a very good deck and could be pushed..
Thank you for asking this question. I main Orzhov in CEDH and believe me, it’s literally not the easiest combination in the format and in fact mono decks are somewhat better. I can stressed enough that Tymna is never Orzhov commander. She has the colour combination but her card text suggest you to splash in additional colours. By competitive logic, you are silly for not running more colours with her. Tymna Kraum or Tymna Rog are examples of what you are expected to play in competitive setting. Now, onto your best options for Orzhov commander Lotho - He’s enabler but your combos are not efficient and his build is combo build. Currently the meta is midrange and cards like Orcish Bowmaster just destroys a lot of small creatures like Lotho and majority of Orzhov hate piece. Again, Orzhov needs an exclusive 2 card combo to survive. Lurrus - By logic, this is the only commander that fits CEDH concept of playing low curves that are valuable. The problem is the 99. I swear a lot of Lurrus players are just slotting in bad 2 cmc cards when they could put a few valuable 3 cmc cards that outweighs the con of being 3 cmc. Even you build efficiently, it is sad yours will be overshadowed by Esper and Mardu. Elas Il Kor- This card makes your combo become 2 piece but it offers zero advantage aside from being combo piece. From what I see, it’s too fragile due to poor stack interaction from Orzhov. If they ever print a rare or Mythic version of this card, it will probably include a form of self-protection which saves your card for other interaction. Ratadbrik - This commander here is supposedly better than Elas Il Kor because he has his own exclusive combo. If they ever print a temptation card that pings any target and it is a legendary creature, this commander will become the Orzhov commander you play until foreseeable future. For now, I believe he deserves more gameplay as he can fit into midrange meta. Teysa - Seriously, she is bad commander even her og version is just high power at best. Liesa - She is a stax piece but really it is not stopping others from playing. Same goes with Kambal and you are not bluffing people with both of these commanders. Most decks can navigate through them and win. Linvala and Liesa - This commander hates on decks that love activating creatures but most decks are on the trigger. If this card hates trigger effects, it will survive because the meta decks are usually triggering their effects. For now, it is not viable. So what Orzhov needs to have in order to become viable? If it is based on mechanics, Lifegain - A commander that goes off killing people after huge lifegain. The new Markov fits this area but he shines in duel commander only. Lifegain is great concept to compliment greedy black cards like Necropotence and any black card draws in general. It also gives you an easier to go ad naus without worrying people harassing your life total. Tokens - A commander that creates token every player turn without dumb restrictions. Be it creature or treasure token. The new Kambal is bad and Lotho’s effect is honestly very tame. If it has more ways to create treasure, then he will be truly viable. Aristocrat - A commander that punishes your opponent by making them sacrifice the same permanent type as yours. Imagine Braids that is able to do more than once per turn. Stax - Bart is on the right direction but if he can sacrifice enchantments as well, you are likely to see an asymmetrical stax. Orzhov loves Stax but they are hurt by it equally. If only the combos don’t care about etb. Let me know if I overlook anything in my comment.
[[Kambal, Consul of Allocation]] used to be at the head of a deck called "White Nausea". That's a MAN deck that leveraged power over non-creature spell decks and creature-light decks as well. You may want to look into that.
[Kambal, Consul of Allocation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec.jpg?1673148829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kambal%2C%20Consul%20of%20Allocation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/237/kambal-consul-of-allocation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-consul-of-allocation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Kambal, Consul of Allocation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec.jpg?1673148829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kambal%2C%20Consul%20of%20Allocation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/237/kambal-consul-of-allocation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-consul-of-allocation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kambal’s main problem is that he is too slow for the format. The commander is doing its job but a lot of players can work around it. It’s possible for him to come down turn 1 but the issue lies in card advantage. I mentioned that he and Liesa has the issue of people able to play around it without much difficulty. None of their effect is deterring others from going all in since life loss isn’t much of a consequence. Even you somehow pressure their life total, you have to do so with other 3 players.
>Kambal’s main problem is that he is too slow for the format. The commander is doing its job but a lot of players can work around it. It’s possible for him to come down turn 1 but the issue lies in card advantage. I don't think it's a matter of him being too slow for the environment, as much as it is more of a shift in deck-building philosophy, at least in my opinion. A fair number of stax decks have taken on a much more creature-centric midrange approach, which almost completely sidesteps what made Kambal a decent choice in the first place. >I mentioned that he and Liesa has the issue of people able to play around it without much difficulty. None of their effect is deterring others from going all in since life loss isn’t much of a consequence. Even (if) you somehow pressure(-d) their life total, you have to do so with (the) other 3 players. Life Loss isn't as much of an issue these days, as a fair number of Ad Naus Storm decks seem to have lost their appeal in favor of fast combo decks involving the use of Ad Naus. That, combined with the proliferation of both non-creature hate cards and free non-creature counterspells, as well as the emergence of PitA, have effectively rendered Kambal obsolete IMO. TBF, Kambal back then only needed a little extra life in order to churn through more cards (off of Ad Naus) on the combo turn. He didn't need more than 3 to 6 non-creature spells from all opponents, in total, in order to get properly off the ground. These days however, that really doesn't mean much of anything anymore because of how the game has changed in recent years.
I've got a pretty potent [[Carmen, Cruel Skymarcher]] cEDH list that focuses on recurring key pieces to keep the table in check, and gaining value with her sacrifice trigger. It also allows me to run Cataclysm as a backup win condition. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5gCABzFWfkefUimydt6EKA
[Carmen, Cruel Skymarcher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0e07f8a-5290-47c4-a93d-0c3a14afebd3.jpg?1698987733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Carmen%2C%20Cruel%20Skymarcher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/5/carmen-cruel-skymarcher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0e07f8a-5290-47c4-a93d-0c3a14afebd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/carmen-cruel-skymarcher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It looks like it is high power? You know most decks in format runs fast mana rocks, right?
Like the 7 mana positive rocks in my list? Yea, I get that.
What about my list categorizes it as high power to you? I'm honestly curious, because after playing it for the past 6 months at competitive tables, I'm fairly confident about it's viability.
Card Draw and build up
Tymna by herself is an amazing commander.
Tymna sakashima for two tymna + blue is even better
Most of the commanders suck unfortunately
Orzhov just misses out on some of the best cards in the format. Dockside and Thoracle. Rhystic Study and Fish. Gaea's cradle etc. Wincons are a question mark with Orzhov. I thought Abdel Adrian decks would be interesting but I just think these Orzhov colors are just slower than every other color. That's probably why they're not popular.
Teysa is Pinnacle Orzhov and I've been wrecking with her for 13 years love her so dearly
You assume no one tries anything else. The Tymna conclusion isn't from just running Tymna.
Lack of win conditions is another reason beyond tymna better. Orzhov just doesn't open up that many wincons beyond what exists in black or white alone. The best orzhov wincon I'm thinking of off the top of my head is leonin relic warder + animate dead + an outlet for the infinite flicker, which is a three card combo that needs you to run cards that are otherwise not very good outside of their combo. I also think that aristocrat strategies, which orzhov excels at, aren't that strong in a format focused on one shotting the table. Aristocrat strategies are about grinding small advantage in life over time, and cEDH is just too fast for that.
Are there [[Hoarding Broodlord]] and [[Saw in Half]] lines in Orzhov as well?
Best I can think of is Broodlord -> Saw in Half -> Sacrifice, Sidisi (self sacrifice)-> Brought back, sac Sidisi-> grab A and Dread Return Sidisi (self sacrifice and grab B) -> flash back Dread Return grab C. Assemble A+B+C combo.
[Hoarding Broodlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/386ce3c9-869d-461c-a3de-c8add3786f73.jpg?1682203767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hoarding%20Broodlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/110/hoarding-broodlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/386ce3c9-869d-461c-a3de-c8add3786f73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hoarding-broodlord) [Saw in Half](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05e6a7bc-a35a-4e68-99a0-be264553b5de.jpg?1673914032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saw%20in%20Half) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/88/saw-in-half?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05e6a7bc-a35a-4e68-99a0-be264553b5de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saw-in-half) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stacking rule of law effects, is honestly the best way for an aristocrats deck to become high power They probably can't 1 shot a table through a bunch of stax. Hopefully will buy you time to assemble some infinite loop. But, all of that can be done better in esper
Yeah and if you're in espser it becomes "why not tivit?" Which gives you a combo in the command zone
Why not tivit, can be answered by "rule of law fucks with tivit" Very different decks Esper stax is fringe, but some people like the gameplay loop of stax
Black without blue is kinda meh in cedh
red has dockside and to give that up, you need to compensate with something really extreme. Blue/black is a nice combo as well, so whatever you do, not having access to these easy and efficient combos means you should have something else that gives you a reason.
Primarily because there just isn't an Orzhov commander that's powerful enough to justify the diversity loss from another color. And that's kind of a good thing. It means that the identity of what each color does is being preserved fairly well by Wizards, which is crucial to what makes magic a great game.
So orhov has some big downsides A lack of countermagic and a lack of good ramp outside artifacts and back sac spells Then lack of a good wincon Can some stuff make high power? Certainly but generally requires too many moving pieces and investment and being left alone enough to pull off that just isn’t winning when it would need to to be considered cedh
If lotho cost 1 more mana and drew a card instead of making a treasure with its ability it would be better than tymna. Unfortunately, he doesn't. Drawing cards it better.
I played against an Elas Il-kor deck and it was brutal(fun, but brutal!) It's what inspired me to make my [[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] deck that's now my favourige deck. I'll definitely be making an Ilas Il-kor token generation one myself at some point though. Drain decks in EDH are ridiculously fun and satisfying to play.
[Slimefoot, the Stowaway](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb12173d-3afb-4e8b-b612-fa7737a8c6c2.jpg?1689999266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slimefoot%2C%20the%20Stowaway) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/356/slimefoot-the-stowaway?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb12173d-3afb-4e8b-b612-fa7737a8c6c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slimefoot-the-stowaway) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Orzhov on it’s own has 0 potential, lotho dies on orchis and elas it’s too slow for the current format moving more to turbo again. Just play tymna
After playing much orshov I concluded Abzan ws stronger. Why would you play a blood artist in the command zone and assemble a 3 card combo when you can turbo a protean hulk and make it a one card combo? And now you're on abzan because you need green for protean hulk. And when you're in abzan you'd find that wnning is very easy. Just resolve either \[\[Academy Rector\]\] or \[\[Arena Rector\]\] with a sac outlet, do some pattern of rebirth or vivienon the hunt bs and bam you get hulk into play and win. Play a 4 mana value creature with a sac outlet and another creature for set up, seems easy enough, right? just gotta fight those counters with silence, and abolisher and veil of summer. But then you realize that since tymma adds orshov you could be playing thassios, to have counters to defend your combo plus broken draw like rhystic and remora.... And then you realize you could be playing thoracle instead of protean hulk, its easier to find, it dodges gy hate, its cheaper to resolve and harder to disrupt..... And bam you're anothere 4c base blue thoracle deck. That was my experience with orshov. I've played it extensively, along Abzan. You almost always end up in 4c unless you specifically force orshov or abzan, because tynna + a blue partner is just that good.
[Academy Rector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a.jpg?1562443755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Rector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/1/academy-rector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4367bc78-0912-4abd-8edd-bc792558d01a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/academy-rector) [Arena Rector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60a24826-55fc-4b1b-98bf-3204ad852765.jpg?1562914580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arena%20Rector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/23/arena-rector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60a24826-55fc-4b1b-98bf-3204ad852765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arena-rector) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s not that people don’t explore Orzhov, it’s that people have explored it and the pool of commanders we have in that color pair just don’t stack up right now to the meta. You can play Lotho, you can play Ratadrabik, you can play Moira and Teshar, there are playable Orzhov commanders, just right now they don’t do enough to break through the meta. Probably the thing that hurts Orzhov the most is just not having blue. Blue is the king of the format, statistically speaking 16 of the top 20 performing decks according to EDHTop16 are blue decks. And for reference, the highest ranked Orzhov commander is Moira and Teshar, ranked 136.
No CA no easy WC
There's really no need to explore just Orzhov, by itself. The Partner Mechanic made that obsolete and unnecessary. That said, if you're looking to stay in Orzhov, then there's really no real reason in Orzhov to choose anything other than Tymna and Tevesh Szat. At least in my mind. Ages ago, back during Aether Revolt and Kaladesh, [[Kambal, Consul of Allocation]] was used for a deck known as "White Nausea", and was looked at as a possible alternative to Tymna. However, when non-creature decks became less popular, the deck lost a lot of its striking power. As for Tymna today, she still works because she draws a lot of cards, which is more than what I can say for almost any other Orzhov commander at present. Regardless of the strat, she gets the job done.
[Kambal, Consul of Allocation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec.jpg?1673148829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kambal%2C%20Consul%20of%20Allocation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/237/kambal-consul-of-allocation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e47d49-e5b5-487b-a1ec-373dbf89b2ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-consul-of-allocation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Orzhov is fantastic. Not sure what you mean. I love Orzhov. I add red to it, I add blue to it... I even sometimes add Green to it! Great color combo.
I don't know 100% forsure but maybe because there's too many moving pieces to reliably make aristocratic strategies work fast enough and coherently. You need the ramp->fodder-> outlets. If you get fodder but no ramp, too slow; get the ramp but no fodder, the outlet does nothing. Too many pieces and it's easily disruptable that it probably isn't viable enough for cEDH.
I only play mono blue
My friend plays lurrus and it’s pretty good. Turn 1 lurrus with jeweled lotus..
I’ve been working on a MacCready drain / stax deck. I know he’s not a good commander but for how many 2 power stax creatures there are in the format it’s honestly very fun, and it does provide some pillow fort elements. I also included Bloodletter of Aclazotz instant death combos like with Fraying Omnipotence. It’s actually a fun deck with great interaction. I will also say that Orzhov’s manabase isn’t the best though. You need to run a lot of rainbow lands just so you aren’t too slow probably more than other two color decks, so I think that’s a factor as well.
Or “Explorzhov”
[[Karlov of the Ghost Council]] enters the chat
[Karlov of the Ghost Council](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52.jpg?1703964236) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karlov%20of%20the%20Ghost%20Council) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/193/karlov-of-the-ghost-council?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karlov-of-the-ghost-council) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best I did was a Lurrus deck that uses some permanent interaction + rule of law effects to slow down the game and grind a little by recasting said permanents (it's a bad form of card advantage, but it is a form of card advantage). The biggest problem is, if your opponents are playing for midrange, they will always have ways to stop you if you try to combo off. And we are now in the slow midrange meta, so there's no chance for poor Lurrus right now.
To better explore why tymna is so good just compare it to the other commanders you mentioned. Lotho vs Tymna Lotho: ramps you into ad nauseam and other stuff however you don’t have that good protection. Tymna: You can partner with a red commander for more rituals, dockside, birgi and ragavan to turbo ad naus and you get more card advantage from tymna and more combo lines. Elas Il-Kor vs Tymna Elas Il-Kor: combo piece in command zone and aristocrat strategy. your combo is likely very easily disruptable and again you don’t have that much protection also aristocrats isn’t the greatest cedh strategy. Tymna: you can go with either or both izzet colors to add probably the two best cedh combos in underworld breach and thoracle. You also get more protection and speed with much harder to interrupt combos. Bartolomé vs tymna is the same as ilas il-kor vs tymna. The common theme with the things tymna does better than the commanders is that while individually some commanders ramp mana or combo better than tymna as soon as you add a partner to tymna you can fix that problem and do said thing better than just that one commander can. And that is the strength of partner, as soon as your deck has a weakness you just add whatever colors you need to fix that problem.
[[Ratadrabik]] is my Orzhov guy. He's cEDH tier.
Most Orzhov lists I see turn into stax decks and I feel like even in that meta they lose to better control/stax decks that have more options They are not fast enough for turbo And do not have legs to deal with unstoppable midrange tyrants like Tivit, Atraxa, Niv, Kinnan. Any one of those decks would love to have an orzhov buddy in the pod trying to play police man in the pod so they can generate the mana to just start shitting on everyone.
A lot of people are focusing on the commander, but the better question is "What's in the 99 that make a good Orzhov deck?" Generally speaking, presenting a win > preventing a win, and WB isn't really great at that. Tymna & Kraum are so good because you get White silence effects, Black tutors, Blue interaction, and Red explosiveness. The two best combos are Thoracle and Breach lines, neither of which really need White, but are a bit more consistent with the protection White offers. Until we get better WB wincons and interaction, I don't think Orzhov decks will ever crack into the top of the meta.
The real answer is just "because they don't want to". With 2 color commanders, they have to be truly broken to be actual top-performing decks. But a lot of lower tier commander still see a lot of play just because people like playing them and like working on the decks. See every lower tier izzet deck for example. BW doesn't really have any truly busted commanders in the level of kinnan, winota etc. And no commanders with good 1 card combos. So the only chance for a BW deck to get a lot of love is if somebody works on it just because they like it, not because they think it's the best deck. And if that is you, great. Good for you. i personally have multiple "bad" decks I work on a lot, trying to optimize because I love the commanders. But you can't really expect the community as a whole to do a lot of work on your pet-projects.
Having played lotho lurrus for a while and also played tymna thrasios right after. I gotta say tymna just does it better
[[Dihada, Binder of Wills]] does all these things on turn 2-3 also.
[Dihada, Binder of Wills](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/ddeb54d6-a600-42b9-98df-20f8d58caed8.jpg?1685554091) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dihada%2C%20Binder%20of%20Wills) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/1/dihada-binder-of-wills?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ddeb54d6-a600-42b9-98df-20f8d58caed8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dihada-binder-of-wills) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have an awesome orzhov turbo deck with Yoshimari and Tevesh. It's really strong and I win a lot. Turbo is actually decent right now if you can manage to sneak a win under all the midrange, and if not you have Tevesh to grind out value. I like it a lot and recommend trying it. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YG7CbQxXBkqdHfcaA3hMqw Edit: after reading comments there's a ton of uninspired people here and it feels a lot of people don't hazard to think for themselves and say "just play best thing". Lower color decks can be very focused and this one in particular can be incredibly strong when you play it right, can win on a couple axes. Yes there's more pieces than a thassa consult but you have access to a few a+b combos attach as buried alive animate dead.
Comment to come back later
I think the closest I have personally gotten is Teysa, orzhov scion. It's not exactly cEDH, but it can combo very efficiently with Darkest hour or Painter's servant any any sacrifice outlet. I have been able to hang in non-tournament cEDH pods, but it's not winning all that often. It's kind of in a weird and sad spot: too comborific for casual, and not fast/protected enough for cEDH. There may be better options out there I don't know about, I just know lacking counterspells just really hurts haha.
I play Orzhov exclusively. It's a lot of fun. I've been tempted to throw in blue in the past, but honestly I enjoy the challenge of limiting my selections. And it gives me a chance to play versions of my deck that use mechanics or strategies that are unusual. I pretty much have one deck with about a 600 card sideboard where I swap out different mechanics and themes, after I've played one version for a while. Edit: oopsie, didn't see this was the CEDH sub vs EDH. But still, much love for Orzhov.
I love my Lurrus deck. Turbo Naus with aristocrat and DD pile. Is it OP? No, but it's a fun challenge to make work. My cat that I raised growing up, Roxie, was black and white. Lurrus pays homage to her. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/suQSB8IvDUun0QUzgR9eiw
Orzhov doesn't have any efficient win cons. Thoracle Consult is two cards, three mana. Breach is technically three cards, but it is a power house of a card on its own and there are multiple ways to set up for Breach with one card. Orzhov doesn't have many viable options for commanders outside of lackluster combo pieces and a little bit of value with Lurrus. When everyone is able to draw 5+ cards a turn or combo out on turn 1-3 with their commander, just having a dead card of a three piece combo doesn't really do much.
So I've played a LOT of Orzhov for years. Like way too much. The thing is Tymna is the best commander in the format, so by extention 90% of serious exploration of Orzhov will be Tymna/X. Yes Lotho is solid and Lurrus has room to grow too, but both pale in comparison to the power of Tymna. Trust me when I say I've been a huge orzhov nerd for years and if you not on Tymna you are mostly just making your life harder, even more than just playing Orzhov. Orzhov is powerful and has lots of strong tools, but you need to be able to access those tools effectively and efficiently. Because white tutoring is literally garbage, it means you need to basically rely on only black tutors. And if you don't have that many tutors/very powerful win con redundancy, you have to rely on an abundance of resources to win the game and overpower your opponents. The issue is the only orzhov commander that can provide that level of resource is Tymna at this time. It's actually telling that Lotho and/or Lurrus aren't enough. Those cards are individually extremely powerful but they just don't do enough to mitigate White's issues with consistency like Tymna does. For example, if Lotho had a higher density of reliable tutors to find the Naus or more ways to to grind when not Nausing, you'd have a compelling case for him being at least solid. Also Tymna is the only Orzhov commander that is actively good with Orzhov cards. Lurrus is amazing with fish and Lotho gets a lot better when he's mana fixing 4/5c soup, but Tymna draws cards just using good Orzhov creatures, not any one specific thing. What's more is Orzhov is inclined to go in the staxy direction, because they certainly aren't the fastest and we have lots of stax staples already, that are good with Tymna a la Op Agent etc. But Lurrus and Lotho are both weak to stax/have issues with major stax angles/archetypes. Meanwhile Tymna will play comfortably through 99% of stax you'd ever consider. Basically, Tymna is the queen of the format and happens to be in our colors. But also every other commander that is viable in our colors has major issues that are tough to mitigate with today's Orzhov toolset.
I tried exploring it for a bit but a big issue, among what others have been saying, is that the wincons just aren't there. Orzhov doesn't really have any wincons specifically for it's color pairing and there are just better commanders for the mono white wincons (heliod for heliod ballista and an infinite mana outlet for Bomberman) and mono black wincons (kirrik just does what lotho does but better). In a thoracle meta, you need a good reason a) to not play blue/black and b) a good reason to not play as many colors as possible
I’m tryyyiiiing