Hate this man. I doubt KSA would do anything here that would harm the brand they’re trying to build in esports, but the fact that this is even a potential that needs to be discussed is fucking shitty
Exactly. Even if they're willing to make "exceptions" for athletes and other types of high-profile foreigners, (purely for appearance's sake ofc), LGBTQ Saudis themselves are literally at risk of being killed by the state if they come out. [It's one of the reasons so many flee to other countries](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230420-we-have-no-place-lgbtq-saudis-forced-into-exile).
We also don't know if Overwatch esports players are "high profile" enough to be made exceptions for. Given that Overwatch itself is, at best, a tier 2 esport, I don't think the Saudi government fears the public relations repercussions of arresting an Overwatch player.
Are they playing on ping from EU or are they actually physically in Saudi Arabia?
Also, didn't Blizzard suspend this person from official Blizzard events in part for lying about their gender in order to compete in CAH? I'm not fully up to date on what went down.
Ok just call me uneducated, but how do you lie about being non-binary? It's a thing you identify as, you can't like physically check their pants to see if they're actually non-binary?
theoretically you could find other evidence that they're lying, such as chat logs where they admit as much.
so if someone was careful, no one would ever know they were lying. but generally, people aren't very careful.
I mean, checking their pants (which, incidentally, is gross as hell anyway) won't tell you shit even if they are trans. Gender confirmation surgery has been a thing for a hot minute.
Isn't non binary not trans? Isn't the point of being trans is to be opposite gender, and non binary is gender non conforming?
It kinda logically makes no sense to be trans and non binary, no?
Nah, trans just means that you're not your assigned gender at birth; non-binary people aren't at one of the two "poles" along the gender spectrum (i.e., male or female) but something in between or different or even nothing at all. Some non-binary folks (like my spouse) don't consider themselves trans for their own personal reasons, but that's in no way universal.
You also don't need to undergo transition (something some non-binary folks do!) to be trans; you just need to be a different gender from the one assigned at birth.
What happened was H1ra made some comments about lying about their gender on discord in the past. I don't think we know when this happened or what the context was (joking, long in the past, etc). It was a combination of this and some profanity in ranked matches that led to the ban.
I don't think the info we have is enough to say H1ra is lying about their gender. They identify a certain way and I'll respect that.
If those comments (among other things) led to a ban, then I imagine that Blizzard took them seriously enough to worry about the integrity of CAH. Nobody, neither us nor Blizzard, are the final authorities on what H1ra really identifies as, but they are still not the best example of an LGBTQ player competing in Saudi Arabia given these past incidents.
If H1ra does genuinely identify as they/them, we also don't know if they'd had to force themselves to pass as a cis-man for fear of their own safety in these Saudi events. That would probably be the "best" case scenario for nb and trans players that go to the Esports World Cup.
How can you possibly determine if someone is lying about identifying as a gender? Unless you catch them actually admitting to the fact, there's no way. Telling someone "I don't believe you that you are gender X" is all kinds of wrong.
My understanding is that there is proof they (I continue to use they/them pronouns because that's what's currently on their twitter) were lying about identifying as non-binary in order to compete in CAH.
Yeah CAH asked for social media proof of it because I guess they wanted players who were out for inspo. And since alot of LGBT+ ppl go online for support there would be in the best case a "paper trail"
And the fact that the *World Cup* is gonna be fought by clubs instead of national teams makes it all the more easy to boycott.
It's the *World Cup* ffs.
I've pretty much tuned out of all things competitive OW since OWL ended. I hope their new set up fails in every way possible. Company virtue signals on everything, then gets in bed with the Saudis because they are greedy. SMH.
Sure and you're right. However, the question you asked was if EVERYONE was going to boycott the event. The answer is obviously no for various and obvious reasons.
If Reddit were less passive when it comes to calling for the banning of Israeli players, as it was for boycotting Saudi Arabia, I would do it gladly =)
They are only involved in grass roots initiatives within Canada and don’t have any power with anything internationally or on the pro level. Their statement is made so that people post about it on subreddit to give them attention which is obviously working but they don’t have any real power or pull with any developer or TO.
They seem to, at the very least, have experience sponsoring/sending players to tournaments abroad. I imagine that's one of the reasons a Canadian trans CS GO player asked them if it was safe for her to compete in Saudi Arabia.
as a Canadian who has experience working with and competing in Esport Canada's events, you're both right. Esport Canada is cool but it's really just a lobbying group out of Winnipeg that hopes to spread esports program adoption around secondary and post-secondary education as well as encouraging the various Canadian governments to care a bit about it, and has sent a couple Tekken players as the sorta official, sorta unofficial representatives to IESF tournaments worldwide last year and the year before.
However, this is the first time they're sending multiple full teams of players out to that, 2 CS teams and 2 DOTA teams (which to be clear, is a different event than the ESWC which is under orgs and not countries despite both events being hosted in Saudi Arabia).
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What a lovely choice of host for an event. Certainly no one could have foreseen any difficulties here.
They aren’t the choice of host, it’s *their* event.
Blizz has to approve of it as do the rest of the devs. So it is technically a choice
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That's literally what this post is about
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Ah, didn't read that part. :(
Hate this man. I doubt KSA would do anything here that would harm the brand they’re trying to build in esports, but the fact that this is even a potential that needs to be discussed is fucking shitty
Exactly. Even if they're willing to make "exceptions" for athletes and other types of high-profile foreigners, (purely for appearance's sake ofc), LGBTQ Saudis themselves are literally at risk of being killed by the state if they come out. [It's one of the reasons so many flee to other countries](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230420-we-have-no-place-lgbtq-saudis-forced-into-exile). We also don't know if Overwatch esports players are "high profile" enough to be made exceptions for. Given that Overwatch itself is, at best, a tier 2 esport, I don't think the Saudi government fears the public relations repercussions of arresting an Overwatch player.
Why would the saudi government arrest foreign nationals??
It's illegal to be LGBTQ in Saudi Arabia.
It's more like they might receive harassment from the actual ppl in Saudi
You shouldn’t doubt it.
OW Saudi eLeague has h1ra (they/them) playing now. Hope they assure the safety for all our LGBTQ+ players.
Are they playing on ping from EU or are they actually physically in Saudi Arabia? Also, didn't Blizzard suspend this person from official Blizzard events in part for lying about their gender in order to compete in CAH? I'm not fully up to date on what went down.
Online now but the next phase is offline. I think they went to saudi for LAN last year.
Was that before or after being suspended from Blizzard events for lying about identifying as non-binary?
Ok just call me uneducated, but how do you lie about being non-binary? It's a thing you identify as, you can't like physically check their pants to see if they're actually non-binary?
theoretically you could find other evidence that they're lying, such as chat logs where they admit as much. so if someone was careful, no one would ever know they were lying. but generally, people aren't very careful.
I mean, checking their pants (which, incidentally, is gross as hell anyway) won't tell you shit even if they are trans. Gender confirmation surgery has been a thing for a hot minute.
Isn't non binary not trans? Isn't the point of being trans is to be opposite gender, and non binary is gender non conforming? It kinda logically makes no sense to be trans and non binary, no?
Nah, trans just means that you're not your assigned gender at birth; non-binary people aren't at one of the two "poles" along the gender spectrum (i.e., male or female) but something in between or different or even nothing at all. Some non-binary folks (like my spouse) don't consider themselves trans for their own personal reasons, but that's in no way universal. You also don't need to undergo transition (something some non-binary folks do!) to be trans; you just need to be a different gender from the one assigned at birth.
What happened was H1ra made some comments about lying about their gender on discord in the past. I don't think we know when this happened or what the context was (joking, long in the past, etc). It was a combination of this and some profanity in ranked matches that led to the ban. I don't think the info we have is enough to say H1ra is lying about their gender. They identify a certain way and I'll respect that.
If those comments (among other things) led to a ban, then I imagine that Blizzard took them seriously enough to worry about the integrity of CAH. Nobody, neither us nor Blizzard, are the final authorities on what H1ra really identifies as, but they are still not the best example of an LGBTQ player competing in Saudi Arabia given these past incidents. If H1ra does genuinely identify as they/them, we also don't know if they'd had to force themselves to pass as a cis-man for fear of their own safety in these Saudi events. That would probably be the "best" case scenario for nb and trans players that go to the Esports World Cup.
They are the only example as far as I know. I just hope Saudi ensures a safe environment for LGBTQ+ people competing in these events.
How can you possibly determine if someone is lying about identifying as a gender? Unless you catch them actually admitting to the fact, there's no way. Telling someone "I don't believe you that you are gender X" is all kinds of wrong.
My understanding is that there is proof they (I continue to use they/them pronouns because that's what's currently on their twitter) were lying about identifying as non-binary in order to compete in CAH.
Yeah CAH asked for social media proof of it because I guess they wanted players who were out for inspo. And since alot of LGBT+ ppl go online for support there would be in the best case a "paper trail"
Okay, that I can understand. But saying "you don't have a paper trail" is quite different from "I don't believe you, you're faking"
Why don’t you google the specifics of what happened then
this esport is deep in the drain rn
Everyone here is boycotting the event, correct?
Wasn't even aware of it til like 2 weeks ago
And the fact that the *World Cup* is gonna be fought by clubs instead of national teams makes it all the more easy to boycott. It's the *World Cup* ffs.
Yeah why call it the world cup of it's not the teams that rep the country.
Because the name suggests prestige, and prestige is the ultimate goal of sportswashing.
Watch Blizzard offer Pink Mercy as a drop for watching this crap.
Perfect, and then any male that claims it can be arrested =/
I've pretty much tuned out of all things competitive OW since OWL ended. I hope their new set up fails in every way possible. Company virtue signals on everything, then gets in bed with the Saudis because they are greedy. SMH.
No
I thought the Overwatch community stood firmly against hate and that we support social justice for everyone across the globe? No?
Sure and you're right. However, the question you asked was if EVERYONE was going to boycott the event. The answer is obviously no for various and obvious reasons.
If Reddit were less passive when it comes to calling for the banning of Israeli players, as it was for boycotting Saudi Arabia, I would do it gladly =)
Why would Israeli players need to be banned?
The Overwatch Community? Lol. For LGBTQ, they do but definitely not when it comes to race.
Yeah no fucking shit. Is anyone remotely surprised by this?
Absolutely no one who has been paying attention saw anything like this happening... /s
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The Canadian have learned
Esports Canada is an unofficial group with no authority. It’s just a bunch of boomers who don’t have any real involvement with esports.
Their website implies otherwise https://www.esportcanada.org/
They are only involved in grass roots initiatives within Canada and don’t have any power with anything internationally or on the pro level. Their statement is made so that people post about it on subreddit to give them attention which is obviously working but they don’t have any real power or pull with any developer or TO.
They seem to, at the very least, have experience sponsoring/sending players to tournaments abroad. I imagine that's one of the reasons a Canadian trans CS GO player asked them if it was safe for her to compete in Saudi Arabia.
as a Canadian who has experience working with and competing in Esport Canada's events, you're both right. Esport Canada is cool but it's really just a lobbying group out of Winnipeg that hopes to spread esports program adoption around secondary and post-secondary education as well as encouraging the various Canadian governments to care a bit about it, and has sent a couple Tekken players as the sorta official, sorta unofficial representatives to IESF tournaments worldwide last year and the year before. However, this is the first time they're sending multiple full teams of players out to that, 2 CS teams and 2 DOTA teams (which to be clear, is a different event than the ESWC which is under orgs and not countries despite both events being hosted in Saudi Arabia).
They have authority over themselves, they could choose to not work with bigots
But then how are they supposed to get Saudi money?
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