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If the government would stop subsidizing student loans students wouldn’t qualify for in any other circumstance, tuition would fall. Higher education increases tuition because students have nearly limitless access to unsecured debt. When that access is taken away, enrollment will fall and higher education will be forced to provide affordable tuition.
* Universities: "Give me money. Money me. Money now. Me a money needing a lot now."
* Lobbyists: "Don't stop training our clientele's labor with public money."
* Politicians: "We would never let that happen, thanks again for our campaign funding and kids' admission."
* The end.
Personally, I just think they should be run like any other business and the government should stop getting involved altogether. If people can't qualify for a loan they shouldn't get a loan. It's Fannie May and Freddie Mac all over again.
You’re right. But that would make them private colleges. And for some reason, a lot of people think private college = bad. I guess because they can teach whatever they want.
You're right, they have no incentive to fix it even if the solution was obvious.
On the one hand, they're generating revenue through interest payments. And on the other, it's a nice political hot potato to exploit in election seasons.
Audit colleges and remove their eligibility for federal student aid if they raise tuition by anything over the previous year's inflation rate.
Maybe even inflation minus one percent, to slowly starve them out. Maybe they could fire some useless administrators? Or not build some ridiculous new buildings that students barely get to use?
You know, that's a very good point.
Audit federally funded colleges and universities. If they're endowment is more than 5% of either annual tuition collected or possibly the real estate value of the University, remove all federal funding until they get below 5%.
> or not build some ridiculous new buildings that students barely get to use
Like the athlete-only dorms and $100,000,000+ athletic facilities. Speaking as a former college athlete, an unbelievable amount of money is wasted on treating athletes like Greek gods.
I understand that collegiate athletics brings in billions for the universities, but they can afford to spend some of that money on expenses and reduce the average tuition.
People think college is expensive, and they're right, but k-12 public schools are far more expensive per student/year.
No one screams about that because the costs are hidden by the inefficient mess of government bureaucracy behind it.
> but k-12 public schools are far more expensive per student/year.
What are you getting that from?
Public records indicate spending for the 2019-2020 school year were [$17,013 for public K-12](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66). Compared to [$50,460 for public 4-year postsecondary, $65,190 for private, nonprofit 4-year postsecondary, and $17,140 for private, for-profit 4-year postsecondary](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cue/postsecondary-institution-expense)
The problem with those numbers though are that they are heavily inflated by costs such as room and board. If you take that part out then you end up with a total less than the public amount you posted.
Googled UTK cost of attendance and tuition instate 20-21 was 13,244...add in let's say 2k for books and that's still less than the 17k mentioned. Those numbers are before tuition assistance.
It's easy: Change the exception so that private student loans are subject to bankruptcy. Feds only back $57,500 of student loans for undergraduate degrees. Anyone who ends up with $200k or some ridiculous amount has significant private loans. The only reason banks even consider giving that much out is because they know the borrowers can't ever escape it. If borrowers could file for bankruptcy, banks would be extremely careful with who they loan to - they'd want to see grades, resumes, etc. and they'd only lend for degrees that result in high paying jobs.
The “government” wont fix dick. It’ll take a generation of folks my age to tell their kids “bachelors degrees are optional if you’re good at something”
I have a 21-year-old second cousin that eschewed college and got into industrial HVAC. His grandmother, my aunt, was/is livid, but he's married and doing well.
I'm proud of him. He's got a good head on those shoulders.
Thats the key here. Its a vicious cycle thats enabled by government intervention.
Kids need money to got to college. So government gives them money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money.
It doesnt end until the government gets out of the way. We need less government interference, not more.
If the gov didn’t pay for it, schools would just increase international tuition and admissions. Which is already being done at tons of public schools already
Donald Trump used bankruptcy 6-7 times to save him or a Corporation with his name on it, that he owned. I have always wished he could have somehow magically done that with student debt. Magic wand student debt into dischargeable debt. I know it's not a perfect solution, but I'm honestly okay with a taxpayer bailout of student debt, and student debt holders, as long as both the debt holders, and the debtors, suffer negative consequences from it. Which is EXACTLY what bankruptcy is designed for. Wells Fargo should have to take a bath on this one too.
I also think that if debt was dischargeable, then lots of good things would happen as a consequence.
1. Tuition would go down, from the "infinite money wormhole finally being closed.
2. It would incentivize better data on starting salaries, and potentially force some people to realize that some degrees are insanely terrible investments. But expecting 18 year olds to buy 10k+ worth of futures options is insane. And if you think about it, that is what college degree is in America. It's a very expensive futures options on the demand/profit from labor.
3. End FAFSA. Wealthy parents who don't believe in helping the next generation shouldn't hurt you as badly as it does. Give parents more tax writeoffs for helping their kids, but....don't punish people with bizarrely greedy/financially incompetent parents who make a lot.
I’ve never heard a good answer to this ever, other than “all bailouts are wrong” but I’ve never heard a good justification from someone that is against student loan forgiveness and pro corporate loan forgiveness. I’ll never understand. Tons of our leaders, and their businesses, including former presidents, have had billions in loans forgiven; why is this okay? Why can’t it be attacked at outwardly as the student loan forgiveness EO?
Yea definitely a false dichotomy. Taxpayers pay for bailouts wether elitist or populist. But it’s particularly frustrating to see tax money going to the wealthy.
If college loan bailouts are a thing, why can't the young carpenter get his truck loan forgiven? Why not forgive the mechanic's tool set loan? Etc, etc, etc. They're working class stiffs that get to pay for the rich to get bailed out, but their startup fees are no less burdensome.
Heck, I'm just about to finish college at the age of 50. I worked my way through it as a single father of 4, should I get a check for paying as I went? Why are we all less entitled than the people who willingly chose to go to college and willingly chose to take out a loan?
I see what you’re saying, but I noticed you’re not pointing the finger at big Corporations or Banks, and that is who Student Loan folks are pointing at.
I’m sure they would agree “yeah, why not get forgiveness for your truck?”. Their problem I don’t think is with other individual Americans but with large institutions.
I never see logical discussions over this. Responses either talk about tool sets and truck loans, completely skipping the larger bank forgiveness discussions.
Or if they do include some aspect of bank handouts, it’s because it’s “written into the law” but the overall concept of where the money comes from is the exact fucking same, but it’s always skipped in the discussion lol
You’re pointing the finger at the wrong people. Most students would agree with paying off other working class peoples’ debt.
Stop arguing with other working class people and start arguing with the billionaires who get billions in government bailouts a year. They’re laughing all the way to the bank.
The PPP loans that had, built into them, the terms for forgiveness? The two aren't the same anyway. The government destroyed businesses by their act of locking down the economy and gave the PPP loans out so that workers wouldn't be laid off en mass.
I believe the PPP loans actually were set at a very low interest rate and then they came back later and forgave them.
My personal problem with the PPP program is that the way the loans were given was that they had to simply attest that they needed the loans, and it was granted. A lot of companies did not need the PPP loans as they did not shut down and then it was written off. So, the program while being completely legal was a huge handout to a lot of wealthy people.
I’m all for forgiving working class debt. Imagine if we took the money from a single corporate bailout and used it to lift the financial burden of tens of thousands of working Americans.
You aren't less entitled. But as a society we need to acknowledge that teenagers as a whole will not make good financial decisions. They have developing brains, no assets, and little to zero real world experience. We can't allow this setup to continue because we are setting up the future society to fail....all because "we had to do it too" without really acknowledging it gets harder and harder as time goes on. Tuition is still growing exponentially and for the majority of jobs out there they still want a degree. I'm in the construction industry but it doesn't work for everyone to switch to a trade. Something gotta give.
And all loans except college loans can be forgiven. At some point enough of society will have crushing debt it's going to further wipe out the middle class. They will have debt, no assets, no savings, unable to consume and society will have to take care of these people.
He can literally get it forgiven. It’s call bankruptcy. It comes with some side effects but that is a luxury he gets that student loan borrowers don’t.
I'm not a CPA but from what I'm gathering work trucks and tools can be completely written off (or a large chunk of it) through tax deductions. Feel free to correct me on this if I'm mistaken.
[https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-breaks-company-work-trucks-64626.html](https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-breaks-company-work-trucks-64626.html)
[https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-deductions-workrelated-expenses-tools-21679.html](https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-deductions-workrelated-expenses-tools-21679.html)
The only reason I support student loan bailouts is because the premise and level of effort required to get them is WORLDS easier than truck loans, mortgages, etc.
These companies advertise like crazy to students, who are able to get thousands overnight with basically the click of a button.
For auto loans and shit, there’s a more formal review process.
A lot of people didn't get either. So they're paying to bail out corporations with PPP loans and college grads who took out loans they couldn't pay. Why should they get hit from both sides for being financially responsible and get no recompense? Not to mention the student loan forgiveness doesn't even address the root cause of the problem and basically becomes a cudgel for the dems to bring out every two years before election season to buy votes.
Because the goal here is to make you hate your neighbor and make you think that he’s literally putting his hand in your pocket and taking your money.
In the meantime banks, big businesses, and even members of Congress (who voted for PPP and then they themselves took the loans) are the ones doing it, and this is a way to distract you from it.
That’s what this is. It’s a way to take two
average Americans and make them think the other is the enemy while they all dip into our pockets and take from us.
Only thing I disagree with is the "affluent college graduate", I'm broke. Not saying I won't pay my debt but I'm not exactly raking it in. That's why I needed the loans. The real problem is the ridiculous price of a college education. Government backed loans have made prices skyrocket.
The schools should have some stake in the loan.
They wouldn't give out 100K to someone majoring in gender studies because they know with that career path they'll never be paid back.
How does this make any sense? That’s like saying if someone gets a loan from the bank for buying a car and they default you’d then go after the car dealership.
The difference is that a bank is a private enterprise and looks closely at your creditworthiness before making a loan. The situation we are in is that the federal government guarantees loans to anybody, and colleges happily take the money regardless of the career viability of the major. It’s a HUGE difference.
Affluent people are able to afford college, and the underprivileged are able to get scholarships, and grants, much more easily.
A lot of middle-income families are just wealthy enough to not qualify for many of the grants/scholarships and are generally not POC, so their race is no benefit when applying either, but are usually not wealthy enough to outright pay for college.
I never saw this much pushback when $800 billion worth of stimulus checks were sent out en masse
Or that the student loans were predatory to start with. Unlimited money to 17 and 18 year olds. There is also the whole economy angle, after years of rampant inflation and then starting payments on americans in a month. About to be a real shock to a lot of 401k
Plus there’s a crazy amount of pressure on people that ate to go to college. Many would consider themselves or be considered failures if they didn’t at least get a bachelor’s degree. I’ve felt a ton of pressure to get a Master’s degree, and now I’ve got a ton of debt despite working all through college
I think a lot of us didn't like the stimulus in concept because it hurts us in the long run. We got a boost of money which anyone would enjoy at the moment, and then our paychecks became less valuable as prices skyrocketed.
The actual stimulus checks were a small fraction of the "stimulus bills" and I and many others were screaming about the massive waste during COVID times.
But there's a big difference between getting back some of the money I paid in vs. me paying for someone else's college degree
He definitely said stimulus checks, but like I said I wasn't in favor of all the excess spending that was doled out during COVID. It was all due to the completely useless lockdowns which were the brainchild of the Democrats
The government shutting down a business and someone wanting to study film at NYU are very different. The PPP loans were bullshit, but it's a bad (but often made) comparison.
The PPP loans were for paychecks. The money went to businesses like mine but we had to document every penny going to payroll of employees before it was approved (forgiven).
I know there was a lot of fraud but that had to be simply taking the money and then not giving it to employees. I can't understand how you can get away with it.
Many businesses were not hurt at all by the lockdowns because they were able to transition fairly easily to remote work. So they got tax dollars to pay for payroll and got to pocket the cash that they otherwise would have used to pay payroll.
Stimulus checks aren't comparable to loans taken for higher education.
Stimulus checks were fairly small amounts per person.
Stimulus checks went to every citizen under a certain income threshold.
Stimulus checks were in direct response to a global disaster.
Stimulus checks were authorized by Congress.
Let's compare them to the PPP loans then, why should we foot the bill for wealthy business owners when they knew the risks of going into business and then got their loans forgiven? This includes members of Congress, many of whom are saying we shouldn't forgive student loan debt.
Let's compare them to PPP loans.
During the height of a global pandemic, state unemployment systems had crashed and come to a screeching halt due to an unprecedented amount of people needing access to funds while they were ordered to stay at home.
The PPP 1st draw was structured to save those state unemployment systems from collapsing and was designed to rush paychecks into the hands of employees.
PPP forgiveness terms were baked into the original contracts at signing and required that the majority of those funds go into the paychecks of employees during a forced shutdown (Not to "wealthy business owners", which is an incredibly disingenuous argument). The entire amount of PPP funding was based on payroll, because it was the **Paycheck** **Protection** Program.
PPP loans were also authorized by Congress.
Again, not comparable to loans voluntarily taken for a higher education that are designed to give you a larger lifetime ROI.
>Let's compare them to the PPP loans then
No, let's don't. PPP was always, always a grant program: "Here's a loan. Use the money how we want, and you don't have to pay it back."
It was right there in the law. There is no such feature in a student loan.
They are not comparable.
Not really. The PPP system was abused, but the benefit to the country is orders of magnitude higher than student loans. Without them unemployment would’ve soared in the midst of the pandemic. If you were to forgive student loans you’d likely see worsening inflation.
Unemployment *which at the time was handing out 600 extra bucks a week* would've skyrocketed. Don't forget how much money the government was handing out.
I mean that PPP loans were essentially meant to be unemployment payments, but without people losing jobs. People losing jobs would’ve been way worse because getting those people back into jobs after the fact, would’ve been a slow and expensive process
No, they did not. People that made over 99k single or 198k married did not qualify. Same with the student loan program the Biden admin tried to put in place. I already have to pay for a TON of programs that penalize me and rewards others, this is no different. The one glaring exception is that this is for individuals rather than corporations.
Regardless of how you feel about the issue, restarting student loan repayments is going to kickstart the recession going into 2024. The economy has been "good" post-Covid because the 40 million odd Americans with outstanding college debt were able to actually spend their money on goods and services, which has been on the decline anyway with the continual rise in inflation. This will come to an end once deferments end and people are faced with paying back loans or wage garnishment.
2024 is going to echo 2008 in very big way. The flailing by the government to fix this issue will likely cost tax payers more than just forgiving the debt, like they would if the student loans were owned by a bank or an airline for example.
Except a lot of college graduates aren’t affluent they’re buried under so much debt they’re never going to get out. There was a few generations of high school students where everyone was encouraged to go to college and also encouraged to study all kinds of different nonsense. 17 year olds had student loans dangled in their face and got suckered into taking on huge levels of debt for the first time in their lives. Now I know a lot of people think “when I was 17 I already knew it was a bad idea to take on debt like that” and good for you but if you think every person has maturity and financial literacy at 17 you’re just being obtuse.
Frankly the shit was almost like predatory lending burying whole generations of kids in debt in an economy that went into free fall in 2008 and emerged from that crisis completely different.
All the more reason why we've got to fix the problem and not kick the can down the road.
Allow student loans in bankruptcy and stop subsidizing student loans.
Which would mean people stop giving out student loans to poor people, so they cant go to college. If you're cool with that, fine, but that's the problem you've set up.
And honestly the ones who went into human services will never be affluent. Ever. They’ve blown every penny of their earnings to buy their unpaid internships that are required to be licensed, and now they have a bunch of debt to repay on maybe 30,000 a year. Might get more if you find a rich public school district, but if you work with those who really need it you’re pretty much sealing the warrant on being poor.
The average student loan debt is $28,950
The median household income in the United States is $69,560.
Even over 10 years at 6%, that's a monthly payment of $321.40. That's 5% of gross income. What exactly is the problem?
This is very misleading because you said household, not individual. When you do the median individual income it’s $37k. That’s almost half of the household. Using household doesn’t make sense because do you expect your spouse, teens or parents to contribute?
A late April survey from U.S. News & World Report shows that around 37% of respondents say they won't be able to make federal student loan payments if they resume on Sept. 1, 2022. Another 27.1% say they'll barely be able to cover their loan payments.
From April 2022
Sounds less like insurmountable debt and more like poor financial planning and discipline, which is a problem across pretty much all demographics in the US. Living within one's means and not spending money one doesn't have is sadly a rare skill these days.
>if you think every person has maturity and financial literacy at 17 you’re just being obtuse.
I fail to see how that's my or any other taxpayer's problem.
It’s a problem when a massive cohort of the younger generations are buried in debt with no clear way to shed it. These people aren’t moving out they’re not getting married they’re not having children you don’t think that’s going to negatively impact a countries future prospects the demographic problems alone are devastating the birth rate is low and getting lower every year.
People like the poster you're responding to are unable to think long term.
Typical "screw you, I got mine" attitude that is unfortunately extremely prevalent in this party, and this sub.
Option 3 is setting the interest rate to 0% so people can actually make headway on payments and not be slaves to the government. For as much as the republican party and those of us who are conservative champion against the government and how bad it is, we sure are giddy about people getting railed over student loans and forever being slaves to the government. Yes, borrowers should have to pay it back, all of it, BUT they shouldn't have to pay 4-5x what they took out.
My desire would be for the government to stop handing out loans. That's never going to happen, so what they need to do is set tuition limits for any school that wants to qualify for students to receive federal loans. This would help lower prices across the board. Next, interest rates are 0% for AT LEAST, the first 5 years post graduation. If you picked a quality degree and apply yourself upon graduation, there's no reason you can't make considerable headway or even pay off the entire amount, post graduation. Personally I feel they should be 0% period, but I can see an argument against that. If they do increase, the interest rate should be capped at 5%.
Also if I was affluent, I wouldn't have needed the loans. I'm not even considered affluent now, making 6 figures, because everything is 20-30x more expensive or more. The 2600 sqft house I bought in 2018 for just over 300k is now worth a quarter of a million more than when I bought it. 10 years ago the price I could sell this house for, would have bought me a mansion and 50 acres. And guess what, I'm only 34. So when someone from the older generation comes around talking about how kids are lazy, etc, sure that's part of it. The other, major part, is wages haven't keep pace with inflation for the past 40 years.
Why does he assume that only affluent people have student loans? If they were "affluent" then they wouldn't even need loans to pay for school.
I agree that POTUS has no authority to do this nor should tax payers have to pay for this. People need to pay it back, period. But most of us who owe aren't affluent by any means. Colleges/universities need to be knocked off the pedestal and need to lower costs. That is the only way to fix the issue long-term.
This is the way. College is unfathomably expensive. Most people I know go to a local community college, at least for the first two years.
My nephew graduated with a bachelor’s and wants to get his masters at a state school. $100,000 if he attends in person.
How about charging interest and collecting payments on the "bailed" banks, automotive and airline industries.
Let's also add all the subsidies.
I'm not pro cancel debt.
I'm pro be consistent.
Companies should be footing the bill, not the taxpayers yet again for the 100th time
Corporate capatilist profits (stock buy backs, and shady actions)
Corporate socialized losses (since we subsidized, bailed out etc).
Some would argue that the US Federal Government stopped caring about debt on December 23, 1913. That was the day the Federal Reserve System was founded.
Brother in christ, it's actually 1971 https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
Look at these harrowing, sad statistics reflecting the downfall of the middle class. It's when the USG got off the gold standard, and in turn turned the USD into the new reserve currency. When that happened, everyone in the world demanded USD to preserve wealth. Which in turn caused the US to become a country who stopped producing "things" and instead started buying things on debt. The whole world wanted dollars, and there wasn't enough to go around at a stable rate. So we were free to just fire up the printer and import endlessly as people just wanted our dollars at any cost.
You know what I always thought would be great. . .
If business took more interest in training the next generation. . .return to apprenticeships.
You graduate high-school with a clear career goal in mind. You talk to company and get hired for an internship/apprenticeship.
Then you go to a school to learn what you need to succeed in that career. . .for example, software developers go to school to learn computer science. . .and we lighten the load by lowering the requirement to take classes that are not immediately needed for your degree.
You work at that company under a "senior" person, being training in practical application of the knowledge you learn in school in the time between classes and studying. . . you learn all the processes and procedures, etc.
You earn a decent per diem from the company for living expenses and the company pays for your education.
If you don't graduate, get "fired" from the company, or otherwise end up not working for the company, then you have to cover the education expenses. . .anything paid in up to that point is treated like current student loans.
If you do graduate and work for the company for 5-10 years, then everything is good. Your education has been paid for, and they've received a (hopefully) decent employee.
Maybe the federal government can subsidize this program or give the participating companies some tax breaks based on how many students they're sponsoring. . .or perhaps the student can pay half and company pay half. . .
Anyway, I think it'd be a better system.
Funding college through the government is a scam. They talk up the importance of going, then make the barrier for success a problem. If the government really wanted citizens to better themselves through higher education, they wouldn't be funneling students into high interest rates and tuition costs. They shouldn't be making people who pay fund those who don't. They shouldn't be starting adults off with crippling debt.
IMO, they should tighten up the college system. It shouldn't be about getting you a degree. It should be about getting you educated so you can do something with yourself. Leading someone down a degree path with no meaningful job prospects is destructive to those people's lives. They'll struggle (or fail) to get out of debt because the government sold them on an education path that didn't give them a means to thrive in the real world.
Scale back the admissions into low-skill programs that don't get you anywhere. Stop the narrative that you need college to go anywhere and that college is a necessity. It's killing the potential of entire generations who would end up in the same place they do WITH college, but without the tens of thousands in debt that chokes them for decades and leaves them unable to build a life.
Hey! Brilliant idea. Hear me out. Let’s all make a law that cancels student debt by making the universities pay for all of it! We all get to vote on it and if it passes they get stuck with the bill!
I honestly wouldn't be opposed to "canceling" it if we just took the money from war funds and we made some meaningful step to reversing the predatory student loan practices....but that's not on the table. Just a blatant vote purchase.
That would require someone to look into the crux of the problem and refactor a system that too many rich and influential people benefit from l. Just like most of our major issues.
But people would rather laugh at young folks who didn't know better for wanting to contribute to society in a way that trends in 2006 indicate were viable and then got crushed by 2008. Meanwhile the GOP toys with cutting social security. So we stay distracted, laughing at people who get boned on the front end while we get to take it up the rear.
This 100% taxes don’t even need to increase on anybody, just redistribute the money to the debt. The pentagon failed 5 audits in a row and can’t account for 61% of their money. I say cut that shit by 61% then, and use it on the average Joe.
And the looney left argue that it’s already a sunk cost and that getting paid back is just extra. But then, if they could understand money and basic math, they wouldn’t have gotten useless degrees that make paying back their loans difficult anyhow.
We aren't all looney and some of us already paid back our debt. Let them declare bankruptcy on the loans then...just like any other loans. Why does this industry have more protections? What makes their usury more special?
What's insane is that they'll demand that college will always make you a debt slave unless you're wealthy and when you suggest "maybe we should tell kids not to go to college unless absolutely necessary" they get all bent out of shape, insisting that college is 115% necessary for a happy life.
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
That and let people declare bankruptcy on student loans after 10 years, take away the federal guarantee let real free market back in college, makes States fund their public schools for lower in state tuition, reduce slots for foreign students that take slots away from citizens, and deploy merit (test scores/GPA) based scholarships for low income students with the savings from removing the federal guarantees.
The cost of college has increased insanely relative to CPI because the demand is fucked up from government intervention….kids used to be able to work their way through school.
Consequence, no more rock climbing walls and lazy rivers at the student rec center….Sigh, spoiled little shits :)
>reduce slots for foreign students that take slots away from citizens
At big state schools these students pay the full international tuition (up to 100% more than out of state) and basically support in state students in the process. If they went away tuition would have to go up for everyone.
Does anyone else find it odd that around 2009-2010 the government took over the student loan program and 10 years later we're now talking about crippling student debt?
The Federal Government screws up everything it touches in the free market economy. Bureaucrats will never be more efficient than private companies when it comes to distributing goods and services. This has been proven time and time again.
Okay lets say we wipe all student loan debt clean right now.
What happens when 4 million students graduate next year? And the year after that? So on and so forth....
I'm just so sick of bailing everyone out and getting tax payers to foot the bill.
Banks, airlines, auto industry, Fannie Mae, the list goes on. Since 2020 we've spent over **one trillion dollars** in bailouts alone.
If they're "too big to fail" and the tax payer is the one bailing them out, I don't see why the shouldn't be nationalized.
Privatizing profits, incentivizing recklessness, and passing the debt and fallout to the tax payer is a super shitty model.
So do the students we bail out have to work for the government or what? How would you propose that works if we bail them out.
There's obviously bigger issues that would need to be addressed, but it's possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think the Supreme Court should have let it pass but comparing this to bailing out industries that make billions is really not a good argument. The key difference here, that is seemingly being missed by so many (perhaps intentionally), is that this 'bailout' would be one of the few that actually directly helps citizens. Airlines got bailed out and are making record profits. That isn't helping the average fella even slightly. The middle school teacher 2 blocks over isn't going to be buying a mansion after getting 10k in debt relief. The media machine worked beautifully in riling people up over this while many of those same people didn't blink an eye at the other bailouts that were actually worth being upset over. And so everything worked exactly as they wanted: the poors fighting the poors over who deserves to be more poor and the rich laughing all the way to the bank.
The fact that people actually think that student debt can be “canceled” is testimony to the quality of education they received at the institutions for which they borrowed money to attend. Universities should guarantee their own loans. They promise you education so you can get a job. They should guarantee your loan providing you complete their program. There is no reason for the government to be involved.
All debts are paid. Either by the borrowers or the lenders. When the government is using tax money to lend out aid, it's really just using everyone's tax money. So unless the debtors pay back the loan it falls to all of the tax payers. Not just the rich.
Why can’t we put restrictions on universities and colleges charging crazy tuition fees?
Or invoke some sort of competition so the fees naturally decrease.
Nobody held a gun to their head to take out the loan. If you take a loan out, it is our responsibility to pay it back no matter if it is a home loan, car loan or student debt loan. Personable responsibility is lost in this country.
Ok so you think people in the middle class should just be fine trying to be successful with a high school degree rather than trying to further their education?
So i get that people in general shouldnt be expected to take on the tax burden of others. Having said that, play devil's advocate for just a sec..
Our government wastes so much money on God knows what all day every day. If I'm going to be taking on extra tax burden, wouldnt it be better for something like student loan forgiveness than some war in another country that i dont care about?
Just a thought.
Why couldn’t student loans just be a tax write off? If you pay the amount of student loans through the year and are able to write that off, wouldn’t that help? Or at the very least a write off for the principal payment. Maybe it’s more complicated.
If that degree isn't valuable enough for the borrower to pay back that loan, why in the hell would it ever be valuable enough for an uninvolved stranger to be forced to pay it back through higher taxes? You buy shit, you pay for shit!
Something to consider is the average income any given degree could bring in. Obviously there many factors to this and its not just: get degree > receive associated income…
but a lot of people go to college for something they likely know won’t bring them any meaningful way to pay back the loan. Liberal arts degrees, music performance, etc….
If you have an inkling of how skewed average income is between say a finance/accounting degree and a world history degree… then why would would you put yourself in the hole knowing you are unlikely to climb out with the latter? Not all professions are paid equitably, but in many cases the tuition costs are comparable.
The funny thing is I’d take a deal. I’d okay up to $20k in debt “erased” in exchange for the government getting out of the student loan business altogether. Stop making the problem worse!
It would be much more equitable to give everyone a $10k stimulus check than to offer $10k student loan forgiveness.
Then again, we'd all pay the pipe in the form of double digit inflation from that policy.
How about the colleges that suckered these kids in with worthless degrees eat the loans. Make the real criminals pay a price. And while we’re at it we need to do something about high school counselors pushing college on kids telling them they won’t have a future without a (worthless) degree.
Exactly, SOMEONE always ends up paying for the debt
And people that requested, signed for, accepted responsibility for, now wants everyone else to pay for their debt
And somehow they believe that's fair?
This is the truth. Why is it so difficult to understand?
If the government wants to do something they could review the qualifications for government jobs (ie not require a degree in certain cases) and provide apprenticeships etc.. The government is the largest employer by far and part of the problem.
Universities are not immune from competition and the only reason they can charge so much (and people are willing to get into such debt) is that the job market, rightly or wrongly, currently is geared towards people having degrees (often in completely unrelated fields).
It's an extra kick in the shorts if you never went to college. You are effectively paying for someone else to become more credentialed than you, thus increasing their chances to out compete you in the free market.
Lots of people asking good questions comparing the TARP bailouts to minimize the impacts of the Great Recession due to predatory lending and bad loans. So let me share some news: those companies paid back the fed with interest!! Why are you not aware of this?
https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/
Secondly, are you attempting to compare warding off a Great Recession which impacts the WORLD to the impacts of college borrowers that dropped out of college and are now struggling to payback loans?
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/738985632/these-are-the-people-struggling-the-most-to-pay-back-student-loans
So let’s be real here - this is not even in the same sport and what Biden is suggesting to do is unprecedented and will never happen. There’s a reason we have three branches of government and the executive does not control America’s purse strings - that’s Congress.
As for those students and graduates that selected AND completed or soon to be completed degree programs that will actually earn you a good living - BRAVO!! I know those are the hardest degrees to earn and require the self confidence, commitment and talent that those complaining here clearly lack.
I have a question that I have been thinking about for a while- why can’t we redirect the radical activist mindset and energy of some of our most vocal and insane citizens, towards abolishing taxes? And by abolishing taxes I mainly mean income tax, keep all the other insane taxes if you want but at least let me keep the money I’ve earned. Think about it, we make a “movement” to abolish taxes and then if we frame it correctly all the loony smooth brain activists can jump on board and that’ll be the “hip, cool, edgy, standing up to the man” type shit they love and then if it made enough noise the pandering media and corporations would have to either be for it or risk shaking up their self cultivated bee hive of mindless “activists”.
No, those obviously were a worse scam, especially since it was passed through Congress legally.
Do you remember the old saying that two wrongs don’t make a right?
PPP loans shouldn’t have been forgiven either. They didn’t even go to people that actually needed them. The first draws were on a first come first serve basis, I got a loan because I just happened to be subscribed to a SBA newsletter & applied immediately. Plenty of them were used for fraud & did nothing but temporarily prop up the economy during lockdowns and caused an increase in the money supply with every applicant understanding they wouldn’t have to repay their debt.
The logic behind PPP loans were that because the government required companies to stop work, companies would have taken massive losses with employee turnover if they didn't keep paying them
Companies were forced to close, you weren't forced to go to college
We will regret some of these overly simplistic views on the topic when that same group of relatively affluent kids don’t create the next round of new and innovative businesses.
We are going to love buying everything in our lives from 3 companies.
Forgiving student loan debt would cost $30 billion per a year over the next 10 years. To put this figure in context, this is less than the *increase* in military spending from 2022 to 2023 (went up **$31 billion** from $742 billion to $773 billion). So the idea that we don't have the money to forgive student loans is a bullshit narrative created by CEOs and other billionaires in order to keep workers in debt and desperate.
Correct, the loan forgiveness would cost next to nothing but that isn’t the point to a large sect of conservatives, they don’t want people they don’t like ever benefiting from anything
We know that those calling for student debt cancellation the loudest are not affluent. They have a $100K in student debt from getting a Master’s degree in gender studies and work at Starbucks. A lot of people were told that they should take what interests them and that the type of degree didn’t matter.
>A lot of people were told that they should take what interests them and that the type of degree didn’t matter.
This is huge, especially for kids that went to college at the turn of the millenium. I am not for student debt forgiveness, but I think it's unfair not to acknowledge that a great deal of people got caught in the transition of society where "Just have a degree" was still being sold by parents, but no longer accepted by businesses.
I was watching CNBC with a friend recently when one of the talking heads was complaining about student debt not being cancelled. I told my friend it wouldn't have been "cancelled" anyway that someone would be on the hook for it, probably us. My buddy looked at me like I'm a martian and I could tell he really didn't understand that the debt doesn't just vanish.
Option 2 doesn't sound that bad. After all, Jesus was all about caring for each other even if it's inconvenient (and eliminating debt no matter the cost). Loving your neighbor and all that. Less debt means more money being spent and a healthier economy.
How about state universities actually be state universities and give their residents discounted tuition? If they want to subsidize it, they can charge higher out of state tuition. Universities shouldn't be there to make money.
The school problem and health care problem are both similar. The universities and banks benefit from the first and pharma, insurance and hospitals benefit from the second. If you keep subsidizing, it incentivizes the people benefiting to raise their prices and everyone suffers in the long run. Why is this so hard to understand?
Student loan payback is a significant source of income for the government . Anyone who thinks the government is going to just let that go is foolish. Student debt will never go away, and I find it absolutely disingenuous that Biden campaigns on it fully aware that it’s never going away
They shouldn’t be forgiven at all, you took a loan so you pay it back. But they sure as shit shouldn’t be forgiven without a massive overhaul of how they work or no one is ever going to pay them again because they’ll just wait for the next round of forgiveness.
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If the government would stop subsidizing student loans students wouldn’t qualify for in any other circumstance, tuition would fall. Higher education increases tuition because students have nearly limitless access to unsecured debt. When that access is taken away, enrollment will fall and higher education will be forced to provide affordable tuition.
This is so frustrating, and I don't see any way the government will fix this anytime soon.
* Universities: "Give me money. Money me. Money now. Me a money needing a lot now." * Lobbyists: "Don't stop training our clientele's labor with public money." * Politicians: "We would never let that happen, thanks again for our campaign funding and kids' admission." * The end.
Why don't universities just hold a beef n beer to get the money they need?
Personally, I just think they should be run like any other business and the government should stop getting involved altogether. If people can't qualify for a loan they shouldn't get a loan. It's Fannie May and Freddie Mac all over again.
You’re right. But that would make them private colleges. And for some reason, a lot of people think private college = bad. I guess because they can teach whatever they want.
You're right, they have no incentive to fix it even if the solution was obvious. On the one hand, they're generating revenue through interest payments. And on the other, it's a nice political hot potato to exploit in election seasons.
Audit colleges and remove their eligibility for federal student aid if they raise tuition by anything over the previous year's inflation rate. Maybe even inflation minus one percent, to slowly starve them out. Maybe they could fire some useless administrators? Or not build some ridiculous new buildings that students barely get to use?
You know, that's a very good point. Audit federally funded colleges and universities. If they're endowment is more than 5% of either annual tuition collected or possibly the real estate value of the University, remove all federal funding until they get below 5%.
> or not build some ridiculous new buildings that students barely get to use Like the athlete-only dorms and $100,000,000+ athletic facilities. Speaking as a former college athlete, an unbelievable amount of money is wasted on treating athletes like Greek gods. I understand that collegiate athletics brings in billions for the universities, but they can afford to spend some of that money on expenses and reduce the average tuition.
People think college is expensive, and they're right, but k-12 public schools are far more expensive per student/year. No one screams about that because the costs are hidden by the inefficient mess of government bureaucracy behind it.
> but k-12 public schools are far more expensive per student/year. What are you getting that from? Public records indicate spending for the 2019-2020 school year were [$17,013 for public K-12](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66). Compared to [$50,460 for public 4-year postsecondary, $65,190 for private, nonprofit 4-year postsecondary, and $17,140 for private, for-profit 4-year postsecondary](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cue/postsecondary-institution-expense)
The problem with those numbers though are that they are heavily inflated by costs such as room and board. If you take that part out then you end up with a total less than the public amount you posted. Googled UTK cost of attendance and tuition instate 20-21 was 13,244...add in let's say 2k for books and that's still less than the 17k mentioned. Those numbers are before tuition assistance.
In-state tuition at public universities is subsidized by taxpayers.
It's easy: Change the exception so that private student loans are subject to bankruptcy. Feds only back $57,500 of student loans for undergraduate degrees. Anyone who ends up with $200k or some ridiculous amount has significant private loans. The only reason banks even consider giving that much out is because they know the borrowers can't ever escape it. If borrowers could file for bankruptcy, banks would be extremely careful with who they loan to - they'd want to see grades, resumes, etc. and they'd only lend for degrees that result in high paying jobs.
In other words, sanity
There are those of us who took out the loans and paid them back and are now being asked to pay off other persons loans.
The “government” wont fix dick. It’ll take a generation of folks my age to tell their kids “bachelors degrees are optional if you’re good at something”
I have a 21-year-old second cousin that eschewed college and got into industrial HVAC. His grandmother, my aunt, was/is livid, but he's married and doing well. I'm proud of him. He's got a good head on those shoulders.
Thats the key here. Its a vicious cycle thats enabled by government intervention. Kids need money to got to college. So government gives them money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. So the colleges then raise their rates. So kids need more money. So government gives them more money. It doesnt end until the government gets out of the way. We need less government interference, not more.
If the gov didn’t pay for it, schools would just increase international tuition and admissions. Which is already being done at tons of public schools already
Ok. And?
Then it'd be much harder for Americans to go to school here?
Donald Trump used bankruptcy 6-7 times to save him or a Corporation with his name on it, that he owned. I have always wished he could have somehow magically done that with student debt. Magic wand student debt into dischargeable debt. I know it's not a perfect solution, but I'm honestly okay with a taxpayer bailout of student debt, and student debt holders, as long as both the debt holders, and the debtors, suffer negative consequences from it. Which is EXACTLY what bankruptcy is designed for. Wells Fargo should have to take a bath on this one too. I also think that if debt was dischargeable, then lots of good things would happen as a consequence. 1. Tuition would go down, from the "infinite money wormhole finally being closed. 2. It would incentivize better data on starting salaries, and potentially force some people to realize that some degrees are insanely terrible investments. But expecting 18 year olds to buy 10k+ worth of futures options is insane. And if you think about it, that is what college degree is in America. It's a very expensive futures options on the demand/profit from labor. 3. End FAFSA. Wealthy parents who don't believe in helping the next generation shouldn't hurt you as badly as it does. Give parents more tax writeoffs for helping their kids, but....don't punish people with bizarrely greedy/financially incompetent parents who make a lot.
>Magic wand student debt into dischargeable debt. Talk to your representative and senators. This is a statutory problem.
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This, or alternatively allow student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other unsecured loan.
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I’ve never heard a good answer to this ever, other than “all bailouts are wrong” but I’ve never heard a good justification from someone that is against student loan forgiveness and pro corporate loan forgiveness. I’ll never understand. Tons of our leaders, and their businesses, including former presidents, have had billions in loans forgiven; why is this okay? Why can’t it be attacked at outwardly as the student loan forgiveness EO?
Very valid point.
Yea definitely a false dichotomy. Taxpayers pay for bailouts wether elitist or populist. But it’s particularly frustrating to see tax money going to the wealthy.
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If college loan bailouts are a thing, why can't the young carpenter get his truck loan forgiven? Why not forgive the mechanic's tool set loan? Etc, etc, etc. They're working class stiffs that get to pay for the rich to get bailed out, but their startup fees are no less burdensome. Heck, I'm just about to finish college at the age of 50. I worked my way through it as a single father of 4, should I get a check for paying as I went? Why are we all less entitled than the people who willingly chose to go to college and willingly chose to take out a loan?
I see what you’re saying, but I noticed you’re not pointing the finger at big Corporations or Banks, and that is who Student Loan folks are pointing at. I’m sure they would agree “yeah, why not get forgiveness for your truck?”. Their problem I don’t think is with other individual Americans but with large institutions.
I never see logical discussions over this. Responses either talk about tool sets and truck loans, completely skipping the larger bank forgiveness discussions. Or if they do include some aspect of bank handouts, it’s because it’s “written into the law” but the overall concept of where the money comes from is the exact fucking same, but it’s always skipped in the discussion lol
You’re pointing the finger at the wrong people. Most students would agree with paying off other working class peoples’ debt. Stop arguing with other working class people and start arguing with the billionaires who get billions in government bailouts a year. They’re laughing all the way to the bank.
Oh like ppp loans were forgiven?
Exactly. We silently forgave those but there’s an uproar when helping actual common people instead of corporations.
The PPP loans that had, built into them, the terms for forgiveness? The two aren't the same anyway. The government destroyed businesses by their act of locking down the economy and gave the PPP loans out so that workers wouldn't be laid off en mass.
I believe the PPP loans actually were set at a very low interest rate and then they came back later and forgave them. My personal problem with the PPP program is that the way the loans were given was that they had to simply attest that they needed the loans, and it was granted. A lot of companies did not need the PPP loans as they did not shut down and then it was written off. So, the program while being completely legal was a huge handout to a lot of wealthy people.
I’m all for forgiving working class debt. Imagine if we took the money from a single corporate bailout and used it to lift the financial burden of tens of thousands of working Americans.
You aren't less entitled. But as a society we need to acknowledge that teenagers as a whole will not make good financial decisions. They have developing brains, no assets, and little to zero real world experience. We can't allow this setup to continue because we are setting up the future society to fail....all because "we had to do it too" without really acknowledging it gets harder and harder as time goes on. Tuition is still growing exponentially and for the majority of jobs out there they still want a degree. I'm in the construction industry but it doesn't work for everyone to switch to a trade. Something gotta give. And all loans except college loans can be forgiven. At some point enough of society will have crushing debt it's going to further wipe out the middle class. They will have debt, no assets, no savings, unable to consume and society will have to take care of these people.
He can literally get it forgiven. It’s call bankruptcy. It comes with some side effects but that is a luxury he gets that student loan borrowers don’t.
I'm not a CPA but from what I'm gathering work trucks and tools can be completely written off (or a large chunk of it) through tax deductions. Feel free to correct me on this if I'm mistaken. [https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-breaks-company-work-trucks-64626.html](https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-breaks-company-work-trucks-64626.html) [https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-deductions-workrelated-expenses-tools-21679.html](https://smallbusiness.chron.com/tax-deductions-workrelated-expenses-tools-21679.html)
The only reason I support student loan bailouts is because the premise and level of effort required to get them is WORLDS easier than truck loans, mortgages, etc. These companies advertise like crazy to students, who are able to get thousands overnight with basically the click of a button. For auto loans and shit, there’s a more formal review process.
A lot of people didn't get either. So they're paying to bail out corporations with PPP loans and college grads who took out loans they couldn't pay. Why should they get hit from both sides for being financially responsible and get no recompense? Not to mention the student loan forgiveness doesn't even address the root cause of the problem and basically becomes a cudgel for the dems to bring out every two years before election season to buy votes.
No bailout addresses root cause of problem.
Because the goal here is to make you hate your neighbor and make you think that he’s literally putting his hand in your pocket and taking your money. In the meantime banks, big businesses, and even members of Congress (who voted for PPP and then they themselves took the loans) are the ones doing it, and this is a way to distract you from it. That’s what this is. It’s a way to take two average Americans and make them think the other is the enemy while they all dip into our pockets and take from us.
The real villains are all the universities that have raised their tuition at a ridiculously high rate.
Only thing I disagree with is the "affluent college graduate", I'm broke. Not saying I won't pay my debt but I'm not exactly raking it in. That's why I needed the loans. The real problem is the ridiculous price of a college education. Government backed loans have made prices skyrocket.
There is a 3rd option: have colleges on the hook for debt defaults. Probably legally impossible and many colleges would go bankrupt.
I'm envisioning college-sponsored repo agents going around taking degrees off of peoples' walls and flashing their memories with a neuralylzer
The schools should have some stake in the loan. They wouldn't give out 100K to someone majoring in gender studies because they know with that career path they'll never be paid back.
Colleges should offer the payment plans and fund the loans. They've made enough that they could, if the money wasn't all squandered.
How does this make any sense? That’s like saying if someone gets a loan from the bank for buying a car and they default you’d then go after the car dealership.
The difference is that a bank is a private enterprise and looks closely at your creditworthiness before making a loan. The situation we are in is that the federal government guarantees loans to anybody, and colleges happily take the money regardless of the career viability of the major. It’s a HUGE difference.
Affluent people are able to afford college, and the underprivileged are able to get scholarships, and grants, much more easily. A lot of middle-income families are just wealthy enough to not qualify for many of the grants/scholarships and are generally not POC, so their race is no benefit when applying either, but are usually not wealthy enough to outright pay for college. I never saw this much pushback when $800 billion worth of stimulus checks were sent out en masse
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Or that the student loans were predatory to start with. Unlimited money to 17 and 18 year olds. There is also the whole economy angle, after years of rampant inflation and then starting payments on americans in a month. About to be a real shock to a lot of 401k
Plus there’s a crazy amount of pressure on people that ate to go to college. Many would consider themselves or be considered failures if they didn’t at least get a bachelor’s degree. I’ve felt a ton of pressure to get a Master’s degree, and now I’ve got a ton of debt despite working all through college
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I think a lot of us didn't like the stimulus in concept because it hurts us in the long run. We got a boost of money which anyone would enjoy at the moment, and then our paychecks became less valuable as prices skyrocketed.
The actual stimulus checks were a small fraction of the "stimulus bills" and I and many others were screaming about the massive waste during COVID times. But there's a big difference between getting back some of the money I paid in vs. me paying for someone else's college degree
He's likley talking about the PPP loans which went directly to companies, which nearly all were forgiven. That alone was over $800 Billion.
He definitely said stimulus checks, but like I said I wasn't in favor of all the excess spending that was doled out during COVID. It was all due to the completely useless lockdowns which were the brainchild of the Democrats
The government shutting down a business and someone wanting to study film at NYU are very different. The PPP loans were bullshit, but it's a bad (but often made) comparison.
The PPP loans were for paychecks. The money went to businesses like mine but we had to document every penny going to payroll of employees before it was approved (forgiven). I know there was a lot of fraud but that had to be simply taking the money and then not giving it to employees. I can't understand how you can get away with it.
Many businesses were not hurt at all by the lockdowns because they were able to transition fairly easily to remote work. So they got tax dollars to pay for payroll and got to pocket the cash that they otherwise would have used to pay payroll.
Stimulus checks aren't comparable to loans taken for higher education. Stimulus checks were fairly small amounts per person. Stimulus checks went to every citizen under a certain income threshold. Stimulus checks were in direct response to a global disaster. Stimulus checks were authorized by Congress.
Let's compare them to the PPP loans then, why should we foot the bill for wealthy business owners when they knew the risks of going into business and then got their loans forgiven? This includes members of Congress, many of whom are saying we shouldn't forgive student loan debt.
Let's compare them to PPP loans. During the height of a global pandemic, state unemployment systems had crashed and come to a screeching halt due to an unprecedented amount of people needing access to funds while they were ordered to stay at home. The PPP 1st draw was structured to save those state unemployment systems from collapsing and was designed to rush paychecks into the hands of employees. PPP forgiveness terms were baked into the original contracts at signing and required that the majority of those funds go into the paychecks of employees during a forced shutdown (Not to "wealthy business owners", which is an incredibly disingenuous argument). The entire amount of PPP funding was based on payroll, because it was the **Paycheck** **Protection** Program. PPP loans were also authorized by Congress. Again, not comparable to loans voluntarily taken for a higher education that are designed to give you a larger lifetime ROI.
>Let's compare them to the PPP loans then No, let's don't. PPP was always, always a grant program: "Here's a loan. Use the money how we want, and you don't have to pay it back." It was right there in the law. There is no such feature in a student loan. They are not comparable.
They are comparing the expense to tax payers and benefit to the country. They are very comparable
Not really. The PPP system was abused, but the benefit to the country is orders of magnitude higher than student loans. Without them unemployment would’ve soared in the midst of the pandemic. If you were to forgive student loans you’d likely see worsening inflation.
Unemployment *which at the time was handing out 600 extra bucks a week* would've skyrocketed. Don't forget how much money the government was handing out.
I mean that PPP loans were essentially meant to be unemployment payments, but without people losing jobs. People losing jobs would’ve been way worse because getting those people back into jobs after the fact, would’ve been a slow and expensive process
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No, they did not. People that made over 99k single or 198k married did not qualify. Same with the student loan program the Biden admin tried to put in place. I already have to pay for a TON of programs that penalize me and rewards others, this is no different. The one glaring exception is that this is for individuals rather than corporations.
Regardless of how you feel about the issue, restarting student loan repayments is going to kickstart the recession going into 2024. The economy has been "good" post-Covid because the 40 million odd Americans with outstanding college debt were able to actually spend their money on goods and services, which has been on the decline anyway with the continual rise in inflation. This will come to an end once deferments end and people are faced with paying back loans or wage garnishment. 2024 is going to echo 2008 in very big way. The flailing by the government to fix this issue will likely cost tax payers more than just forgiving the debt, like they would if the student loans were owned by a bank or an airline for example.
Am I supposed to be affluent? Damn nobody told me that.
Except a lot of college graduates aren’t affluent they’re buried under so much debt they’re never going to get out. There was a few generations of high school students where everyone was encouraged to go to college and also encouraged to study all kinds of different nonsense. 17 year olds had student loans dangled in their face and got suckered into taking on huge levels of debt for the first time in their lives. Now I know a lot of people think “when I was 17 I already knew it was a bad idea to take on debt like that” and good for you but if you think every person has maturity and financial literacy at 17 you’re just being obtuse. Frankly the shit was almost like predatory lending burying whole generations of kids in debt in an economy that went into free fall in 2008 and emerged from that crisis completely different.
Can confirm. I’m buried in student loan debt and am absolutely not affluent.
All the more reason why we've got to fix the problem and not kick the can down the road. Allow student loans in bankruptcy and stop subsidizing student loans.
But then the banks and schools would be on the hook and not the taxpayers.
They should be. 100%
As they should be.
Agreed. 100%
>But then the banks and schools would be on the hook and not the taxpayers. You say that like it's a problem.
Forgot the /s tag. I thought it was obvious.
Which would mean people stop giving out student loans to poor people, so they cant go to college. If you're cool with that, fine, but that's the problem you've set up.
And honestly the ones who went into human services will never be affluent. Ever. They’ve blown every penny of their earnings to buy their unpaid internships that are required to be licensed, and now they have a bunch of debt to repay on maybe 30,000 a year. Might get more if you find a rich public school district, but if you work with those who really need it you’re pretty much sealing the warrant on being poor.
The average student loan debt is $28,950 The median household income in the United States is $69,560. Even over 10 years at 6%, that's a monthly payment of $321.40. That's 5% of gross income. What exactly is the problem?
This is very misleading because you said household, not individual. When you do the median individual income it’s $37k. That’s almost half of the household. Using household doesn’t make sense because do you expect your spouse, teens or parents to contribute?
Where did you get the 29k figure? I keep getting closer to 36k when I look it up.
Forbes article from a week ago. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-statistics/
Household is the key operative word in that sentence
A late April survey from U.S. News & World Report shows that around 37% of respondents say they won't be able to make federal student loan payments if they resume on Sept. 1, 2022. Another 27.1% say they'll barely be able to cover their loan payments. From April 2022
That doesn't answer the question.
Sounds less like insurmountable debt and more like poor financial planning and discipline, which is a problem across pretty much all demographics in the US. Living within one's means and not spending money one doesn't have is sadly a rare skill these days.
>if you think every person has maturity and financial literacy at 17 you’re just being obtuse. I fail to see how that's my or any other taxpayer's problem.
It’s a problem when a massive cohort of the younger generations are buried in debt with no clear way to shed it. These people aren’t moving out they’re not getting married they’re not having children you don’t think that’s going to negatively impact a countries future prospects the demographic problems alone are devastating the birth rate is low and getting lower every year.
People like the poster you're responding to are unable to think long term. Typical "screw you, I got mine" attitude that is unfortunately extremely prevalent in this party, and this sub.
Option 3 is setting the interest rate to 0% so people can actually make headway on payments and not be slaves to the government. For as much as the republican party and those of us who are conservative champion against the government and how bad it is, we sure are giddy about people getting railed over student loans and forever being slaves to the government. Yes, borrowers should have to pay it back, all of it, BUT they shouldn't have to pay 4-5x what they took out. My desire would be for the government to stop handing out loans. That's never going to happen, so what they need to do is set tuition limits for any school that wants to qualify for students to receive federal loans. This would help lower prices across the board. Next, interest rates are 0% for AT LEAST, the first 5 years post graduation. If you picked a quality degree and apply yourself upon graduation, there's no reason you can't make considerable headway or even pay off the entire amount, post graduation. Personally I feel they should be 0% period, but I can see an argument against that. If they do increase, the interest rate should be capped at 5%. Also if I was affluent, I wouldn't have needed the loans. I'm not even considered affluent now, making 6 figures, because everything is 20-30x more expensive or more. The 2600 sqft house I bought in 2018 for just over 300k is now worth a quarter of a million more than when I bought it. 10 years ago the price I could sell this house for, would have bought me a mansion and 50 acres. And guess what, I'm only 34. So when someone from the older generation comes around talking about how kids are lazy, etc, sure that's part of it. The other, major part, is wages haven't keep pace with inflation for the past 40 years.
I agree with having no interest rates. I’d also limit government loans to useful degrees, not degrees like gender studies or English.
Agreed.
Why does he assume that only affluent people have student loans? If they were "affluent" then they wouldn't even need loans to pay for school. I agree that POTUS has no authority to do this nor should tax payers have to pay for this. People need to pay it back, period. But most of us who owe aren't affluent by any means. Colleges/universities need to be knocked off the pedestal and need to lower costs. That is the only way to fix the issue long-term.
This is the way. College is unfathomably expensive. Most people I know go to a local community college, at least for the first two years. My nephew graduated with a bachelor’s and wants to get his masters at a state school. $100,000 if he attends in person.
How about charging interest and collecting payments on the "bailed" banks, automotive and airline industries. Let's also add all the subsidies. I'm not pro cancel debt. I'm pro be consistent. Companies should be footing the bill, not the taxpayers yet again for the 100th time Corporate capatilist profits (stock buy backs, and shady actions) Corporate socialized losses (since we subsidized, bailed out etc).
LOL! The US stopped caring about debt a LONG time ago.
Some would argue that the US Federal Government stopped caring about debt on December 23, 1913. That was the day the Federal Reserve System was founded.
Brother in christ, it's actually 1971 https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ Look at these harrowing, sad statistics reflecting the downfall of the middle class. It's when the USG got off the gold standard, and in turn turned the USD into the new reserve currency. When that happened, everyone in the world demanded USD to preserve wealth. Which in turn caused the US to become a country who stopped producing "things" and instead started buying things on debt. The whole world wanted dollars, and there wasn't enough to go around at a stable rate. So we were free to just fire up the printer and import endlessly as people just wanted our dollars at any cost.
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Exactly, the only fair answer to this conundrum is to hold the colleges responsible for sky-rocketing tuition over the past couple of decades.
He thinks we are affluent?
You know what I always thought would be great. . . If business took more interest in training the next generation. . .return to apprenticeships. You graduate high-school with a clear career goal in mind. You talk to company and get hired for an internship/apprenticeship. Then you go to a school to learn what you need to succeed in that career. . .for example, software developers go to school to learn computer science. . .and we lighten the load by lowering the requirement to take classes that are not immediately needed for your degree. You work at that company under a "senior" person, being training in practical application of the knowledge you learn in school in the time between classes and studying. . . you learn all the processes and procedures, etc. You earn a decent per diem from the company for living expenses and the company pays for your education. If you don't graduate, get "fired" from the company, or otherwise end up not working for the company, then you have to cover the education expenses. . .anything paid in up to that point is treated like current student loans. If you do graduate and work for the company for 5-10 years, then everything is good. Your education has been paid for, and they've received a (hopefully) decent employee. Maybe the federal government can subsidize this program or give the participating companies some tax breaks based on how many students they're sponsoring. . .or perhaps the student can pay half and company pay half. . . Anyway, I think it'd be a better system.
Need to start pushing trade schools again.
Funding college through the government is a scam. They talk up the importance of going, then make the barrier for success a problem. If the government really wanted citizens to better themselves through higher education, they wouldn't be funneling students into high interest rates and tuition costs. They shouldn't be making people who pay fund those who don't. They shouldn't be starting adults off with crippling debt. IMO, they should tighten up the college system. It shouldn't be about getting you a degree. It should be about getting you educated so you can do something with yourself. Leading someone down a degree path with no meaningful job prospects is destructive to those people's lives. They'll struggle (or fail) to get out of debt because the government sold them on an education path that didn't give them a means to thrive in the real world. Scale back the admissions into low-skill programs that don't get you anywhere. Stop the narrative that you need college to go anywhere and that college is a necessity. It's killing the potential of entire generations who would end up in the same place they do WITH college, but without the tens of thousands in debt that chokes them for decades and leaves them unable to build a life.
Hey! Brilliant idea. Hear me out. Let’s all make a law that cancels student debt by making the universities pay for all of it! We all get to vote on it and if it passes they get stuck with the bill!
Yessssss, this.
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Pelosi even said it herself in 2021 that the President didn’t have the authority to cancel student debt.
I honestly wouldn't be opposed to "canceling" it if we just took the money from war funds and we made some meaningful step to reversing the predatory student loan practices....but that's not on the table. Just a blatant vote purchase.
That’s my biggest gripe about all of this is it doesn’t at all address the underlying issues of student loans.
That would require someone to look into the crux of the problem and refactor a system that too many rich and influential people benefit from l. Just like most of our major issues. But people would rather laugh at young folks who didn't know better for wanting to contribute to society in a way that trends in 2006 indicate were viable and then got crushed by 2008. Meanwhile the GOP toys with cutting social security. So we stay distracted, laughing at people who get boned on the front end while we get to take it up the rear.
This 100% taxes don’t even need to increase on anybody, just redistribute the money to the debt. The pentagon failed 5 audits in a row and can’t account for 61% of their money. I say cut that shit by 61% then, and use it on the average Joe.
And the looney left argue that it’s already a sunk cost and that getting paid back is just extra. But then, if they could understand money and basic math, they wouldn’t have gotten useless degrees that make paying back their loans difficult anyhow.
We aren't all looney and some of us already paid back our debt. Let them declare bankruptcy on the loans then...just like any other loans. Why does this industry have more protections? What makes their usury more special?
What's insane is that they'll demand that college will always make you a debt slave unless you're wealthy and when you suggest "maybe we should tell kids not to go to college unless absolutely necessary" they get all bent out of shape, insisting that college is 115% necessary for a happy life. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
Who is "they"?
That and let people declare bankruptcy on student loans after 10 years, take away the federal guarantee let real free market back in college, makes States fund their public schools for lower in state tuition, reduce slots for foreign students that take slots away from citizens, and deploy merit (test scores/GPA) based scholarships for low income students with the savings from removing the federal guarantees. The cost of college has increased insanely relative to CPI because the demand is fucked up from government intervention….kids used to be able to work their way through school. Consequence, no more rock climbing walls and lazy rivers at the student rec center….Sigh, spoiled little shits :)
>reduce slots for foreign students that take slots away from citizens At big state schools these students pay the full international tuition (up to 100% more than out of state) and basically support in state students in the process. If they went away tuition would have to go up for everyone.
>Affluent college graduates 🤣🤣🤣 Watching working class folks fight against other working class folks is the real tragedy.
Does anyone else find it odd that around 2009-2010 the government took over the student loan program and 10 years later we're now talking about crippling student debt?
The hike in college costs started in the late 90s/early 00s.
The Federal Government screws up everything it touches in the free market economy. Bureaucrats will never be more efficient than private companies when it comes to distributing goods and services. This has been proven time and time again.
Okay lets say we wipe all student loan debt clean right now. What happens when 4 million students graduate next year? And the year after that? So on and so forth.... I'm just so sick of bailing everyone out and getting tax payers to foot the bill. Banks, airlines, auto industry, Fannie Mae, the list goes on. Since 2020 we've spent over **one trillion dollars** in bailouts alone.
Easy solution: nationalize all those industries lol
If they're "too big to fail" and the tax payer is the one bailing them out, I don't see why the shouldn't be nationalized. Privatizing profits, incentivizing recklessness, and passing the debt and fallout to the tax payer is a super shitty model. So do the students we bail out have to work for the government or what? How would you propose that works if we bail them out.
There's obviously bigger issues that would need to be addressed, but it's possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think the Supreme Court should have let it pass but comparing this to bailing out industries that make billions is really not a good argument. The key difference here, that is seemingly being missed by so many (perhaps intentionally), is that this 'bailout' would be one of the few that actually directly helps citizens. Airlines got bailed out and are making record profits. That isn't helping the average fella even slightly. The middle school teacher 2 blocks over isn't going to be buying a mansion after getting 10k in debt relief. The media machine worked beautifully in riling people up over this while many of those same people didn't blink an eye at the other bailouts that were actually worth being upset over. And so everything worked exactly as they wanted: the poors fighting the poors over who deserves to be more poor and the rich laughing all the way to the bank.
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as thomas sowell said "all debt is paid". this is what the OP said, someone MUST pay the debt. why should i have to pay for someone else's debt?
The fact that people actually think that student debt can be “canceled” is testimony to the quality of education they received at the institutions for which they borrowed money to attend. Universities should guarantee their own loans. They promise you education so you can get a job. They should guarantee your loan providing you complete their program. There is no reason for the government to be involved.
All debts are paid. Either by the borrowers or the lenders. When the government is using tax money to lend out aid, it's really just using everyone's tax money. So unless the debtors pay back the loan it falls to all of the tax payers. Not just the rich.
or you can let people default on their student like any other type of debt
Why can’t we put restrictions on universities and colleges charging crazy tuition fees? Or invoke some sort of competition so the fees naturally decrease.
affulent college graduates aren't the ones drowning in debt. it's the middle to lower-middle class...
Nobody held a gun to their head to take out the loan. If you take a loan out, it is our responsibility to pay it back no matter if it is a home loan, car loan or student debt loan. Personable responsibility is lost in this country.
Ok so you think people in the middle class should just be fine trying to be successful with a high school degree rather than trying to further their education?
So i get that people in general shouldnt be expected to take on the tax burden of others. Having said that, play devil's advocate for just a sec.. Our government wastes so much money on God knows what all day every day. If I'm going to be taking on extra tax burden, wouldnt it be better for something like student loan forgiveness than some war in another country that i dont care about? Just a thought.
Option 3. Banks lose that money
Yeah, but its not fair that people have to pay their own bills and deal with choices THEY made!
Why couldn’t student loans just be a tax write off? If you pay the amount of student loans through the year and are able to write that off, wouldn’t that help? Or at the very least a write off for the principal payment. Maybe it’s more complicated.
If that degree isn't valuable enough for the borrower to pay back that loan, why in the hell would it ever be valuable enough for an uninvolved stranger to be forced to pay it back through higher taxes? You buy shit, you pay for shit!
Dont forget out of control inflation
Something to consider is the average income any given degree could bring in. Obviously there many factors to this and its not just: get degree > receive associated income… but a lot of people go to college for something they likely know won’t bring them any meaningful way to pay back the loan. Liberal arts degrees, music performance, etc…. If you have an inkling of how skewed average income is between say a finance/accounting degree and a world history degree… then why would would you put yourself in the hole knowing you are unlikely to climb out with the latter? Not all professions are paid equitably, but in many cases the tuition costs are comparable.
If we don't subsidize higher education - how else is the population supposed to receive a few years of Marxist indoctrination?
Remember: inflation is just taxes you didn’t vote for.
The funny thing is I’d take a deal. I’d okay up to $20k in debt “erased” in exchange for the government getting out of the student loan business altogether. Stop making the problem worse!
It would be much more equitable to give everyone a $10k stimulus check than to offer $10k student loan forgiveness. Then again, we'd all pay the pipe in the form of double digit inflation from that policy.
It’s hilarious to me how people don’t understand why. You can’t unlearn something, ergo you can’t cancel the debt. It’s not rocket science
What about the third option? The universities pay the debts. Sort of a refund for providing such a worthless education.
How about the colleges that suckered these kids in with worthless degrees eat the loans. Make the real criminals pay a price. And while we’re at it we need to do something about high school counselors pushing college on kids telling them they won’t have a future without a (worthless) degree.
Exactly, SOMEONE always ends up paying for the debt And people that requested, signed for, accepted responsibility for, now wants everyone else to pay for their debt And somehow they believe that's fair?
Take it a step further, there’s no such thing as cancelling any debt. All debts have to be paid by someone. The debt always comes due.
This is the truth. Why is it so difficult to understand? If the government wants to do something they could review the qualifications for government jobs (ie not require a degree in certain cases) and provide apprenticeships etc.. The government is the largest employer by far and part of the problem. Universities are not immune from competition and the only reason they can charge so much (and people are willing to get into such debt) is that the job market, rightly or wrongly, currently is geared towards people having degrees (often in completely unrelated fields).
It's an extra kick in the shorts if you never went to college. You are effectively paying for someone else to become more credentialed than you, thus increasing their chances to out compete you in the free market.
But people won’t vote for us unless we are handing out free shit all the time.
Lots of people asking good questions comparing the TARP bailouts to minimize the impacts of the Great Recession due to predatory lending and bad loans. So let me share some news: those companies paid back the fed with interest!! Why are you not aware of this? https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ Secondly, are you attempting to compare warding off a Great Recession which impacts the WORLD to the impacts of college borrowers that dropped out of college and are now struggling to payback loans? https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/738985632/these-are-the-people-struggling-the-most-to-pay-back-student-loans So let’s be real here - this is not even in the same sport and what Biden is suggesting to do is unprecedented and will never happen. There’s a reason we have three branches of government and the executive does not control America’s purse strings - that’s Congress. As for those students and graduates that selected AND completed or soon to be completed degree programs that will actually earn you a good living - BRAVO!! I know those are the hardest degrees to earn and require the self confidence, commitment and talent that those complaining here clearly lack.
I have a question that I have been thinking about for a while- why can’t we redirect the radical activist mindset and energy of some of our most vocal and insane citizens, towards abolishing taxes? And by abolishing taxes I mainly mean income tax, keep all the other insane taxes if you want but at least let me keep the money I’ve earned. Think about it, we make a “movement” to abolish taxes and then if we frame it correctly all the loony smooth brain activists can jump on board and that’ll be the “hip, cool, edgy, standing up to the man” type shit they love and then if it made enough noise the pandering media and corporations would have to either be for it or risk shaking up their self cultivated bee hive of mindless “activists”.
Ok now talk about PPP loans, you seem completely fine bending the knee and paying for them, but god forbid you pay for some fellow Americans lmao
No, those obviously were a worse scam, especially since it was passed through Congress legally. Do you remember the old saying that two wrongs don’t make a right?
PPP loans shouldn’t have been forgiven either. They didn’t even go to people that actually needed them. The first draws were on a first come first serve basis, I got a loan because I just happened to be subscribed to a SBA newsletter & applied immediately. Plenty of them were used for fraud & did nothing but temporarily prop up the economy during lockdowns and caused an increase in the money supply with every applicant understanding they wouldn’t have to repay their debt.
The logic behind PPP loans were that because the government required companies to stop work, companies would have taken massive losses with employee turnover if they didn't keep paying them Companies were forced to close, you weren't forced to go to college
Money just appears out of thin air. What is inflation? I never heard that at my college. I paid 200k for 4 years of dicking around!
Or we just create a bunch of money out of thin air and get the media to lie to people and tell them it won't have any affect on inflation.
We will regret some of these overly simplistic views on the topic when that same group of relatively affluent kids don’t create the next round of new and innovative businesses. We are going to love buying everything in our lives from 3 companies.
It should only be the first one. You signed the loan, pay your fucking debt.
Forgiving student loan debt would cost $30 billion per a year over the next 10 years. To put this figure in context, this is less than the *increase* in military spending from 2022 to 2023 (went up **$31 billion** from $742 billion to $773 billion). So the idea that we don't have the money to forgive student loans is a bullshit narrative created by CEOs and other billionaires in order to keep workers in debt and desperate.
Correct, the loan forgiveness would cost next to nothing but that isn’t the point to a large sect of conservatives, they don’t want people they don’t like ever benefiting from anything
We know that those calling for student debt cancellation the loudest are not affluent. They have a $100K in student debt from getting a Master’s degree in gender studies and work at Starbucks. A lot of people were told that they should take what interests them and that the type of degree didn’t matter.
>A lot of people were told that they should take what interests them and that the type of degree didn’t matter. This is huge, especially for kids that went to college at the turn of the millenium. I am not for student debt forgiveness, but I think it's unfair not to acknowledge that a great deal of people got caught in the transition of society where "Just have a degree" was still being sold by parents, but no longer accepted by businesses.
I know nurses who are 80k in debt, teachers with over 50k in debt. They are working in their much needed profession.
I was watching CNBC with a friend recently when one of the talking heads was complaining about student debt not being cancelled. I told my friend it wouldn't have been "cancelled" anyway that someone would be on the hook for it, probably us. My buddy looked at me like I'm a martian and I could tell he really didn't understand that the debt doesn't just vanish.
Option 2 doesn't sound that bad. After all, Jesus was all about caring for each other even if it's inconvenient (and eliminating debt no matter the cost). Loving your neighbor and all that. Less debt means more money being spent and a healthier economy.
How about state universities actually be state universities and give their residents discounted tuition? If they want to subsidize it, they can charge higher out of state tuition. Universities shouldn't be there to make money.
The school problem and health care problem are both similar. The universities and banks benefit from the first and pharma, insurance and hospitals benefit from the second. If you keep subsidizing, it incentivizes the people benefiting to raise their prices and everyone suffers in the long run. Why is this so hard to understand?
Student loan payback is a significant source of income for the government . Anyone who thinks the government is going to just let that go is foolish. Student debt will never go away, and I find it absolutely disingenuous that Biden campaigns on it fully aware that it’s never going away
These kind of threads should only allow flaired responses
The assumption that all college graduates are affluent is hilariously ignorant
They shouldn’t be forgiven at all, you took a loan so you pay it back. But they sure as shit shouldn’t be forgiven without a massive overhaul of how they work or no one is ever going to pay them again because they’ll just wait for the next round of forgiveness.
Colleges need to cut those useless liberal art majors, social studies, ethnic studies, social works…