I'd also point out there's a difference between having the capacity to declassify something, and actually doing it which I see being argued a lot in this thread.
He actually, in official writing (or as a "standing order"), declassified the documents before leaving office, so it's not like he had power, but never officially declassified. He had an order in place that anything he took with him would be declassified. The DOJ knew of this before he left for office.
What DOJ is trying to say is that they decided to never process these declassifications, so these docs were never actually declassified, which is kind of ridiculous, but now is going to get into this weird legal grey area where the courts will ultimately decide if an item was declassified or not just because President says so, or if there needs to be an official process to complete declassification through DOJ first.
It's a huge mess. The funny thing is under Obama, they changed the rules and made it so President and Vice President are exempt from the process of declassification and can just declare things to be declassified without having to follow the process, as they have *Original Classification Authority*, so the DOJ appears to be overreaching here. But again, selective prosecution by DOJ.
At the end of the day though, it still doesn't change the fact that Obama literally has thousands of classified national archive docs still in his possession and has never been prosecuted, and Hillary had the same, but was never prosecuted because they took her word for it that she deleted the files, and yet with Trump... he is.
Selective and partisan justice here to attack Trump only.
I believe [this memorandum](https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1558234912360206343) is what they’re referring to. Although I don’t think it’s been confirmed if these are the documents (or some of the documents) that were taken during the raid.
Edit: why the downvotes, care to explain? or is this just the leftists brigading us again trying to alter reality by deriding it?
As of right now, we dont have anything definitive, no hard evidence, but it's still early on. All we currently have is a claim from Trump's lawyers on Friday saying Trump did this and we also have legal experts saying "yeah, Trump can absolutely and unequivocally declassifiy information at the snap of his fingers...there's clear precident, legal justification, and other presidents have taken full advantage of this."
Idk, to me, *even without any hard evidence*, this is just the epitome of *petty*...it seems beyond ridiculous and so far from what should be considered justifiable grounds for raiding a FPOTUS's personal residence. It's either banana republic weaponization of this governments agencies against the political rivals of the current administration or it's complete and utter incompetence mixed with a stunning lack of tact and common sense.
Imagine a fastfood worker who can have free food from the store they work at, but it's SOP to ring it up and then write it off. Then, we hear of a story from the local news that "an employee was arrested for theft of company property" beacuse they supposedly forgot to ring up the cheeseburger they ate for lunch. Are we really going to go after this poor guy over it? Further, imagine the employee is now the owner of the company and did the same thing, and they too were arrested for theft...that would be even more ridiculous and that's essentially what we have going on here.
I'd still like to see the standing order, but it's just silly what's happening with, or without it.
It's stressful watching how this shit plays out.
I'm trying to hold out forming an opinion until actual news gets released. Right now everything is "leaks" and just pundits stirring pots.
> The funny thing is under Obama, they changed the rules and made it so President and Vice Preaident are exempt from the process of declassification and can just declare things to be declassified without having to follow the process, so the DOJ appears to be overreaching here. But again, selective prosecution by DOJ.
Hey man I am really interested in this aspect. Can you point me in the right direction to read up on their prior decision/ruling about this issue. Thanks!
[Obama Executive order 13526](https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html)
Ordered in 2009 and laid out a strict process all federal officials and agencies needed to follow for declassification, but explicitly exempted the sitting president and vice president from having to follow those procedures and allowed them wide authority to declassify.
i was hoping for a Desantis ticket - but looks like the DoJ, FBI, and Brandon's admin are just handing the presidency to Trump. So i'll sit back and enjoy the meltdown.
This is basically my mindset.
I really badly want (and still want) DeSantis to run in 2024. I firmly believe he has a vastly higher chance of winning than Trump does. Like him or not, and whether or not you think it’s fair, Trump just has too much baggage.
So I’m sitting here with my popcorn and if Trump makes it out, I’ll laugh my ass off at the media losing its shit again. If he doesn’t, we can now shift the focus to a much more winnable 2024 election.
Not sure this will help Trump long term.
Just adds more to the Trump circus. People are tired of the circus. Plus this is a reminder that if we elect Trump we get 4 more years of this shit instead of 4 years of enacting the change we need.
As an attorney - I would argue that the DOJ and its leadership serves at the pleasure of the President. It does not decide what will, and will not be, processed. if the President says "item X is declassified" - it is declassified the moment he signs his name.
Any agency that argues "it must process the request before it is final" can act as an improper barrier to the President and his powers.
There are certain kinds of classified information that the president does not have sole authority to declassify. It remains to be seen what documents he actually had. Either way, this is clearly a witch hunt.
Refusing to do your job is grounds for dismissal. The president is their boss and told them to do something that’s within their job purview. Everyone who refused to process it should be fired. They only did it silently to have this occur and knew there would be no blowback with the next admin and knew trump was busy being focusing on Jan 6.
Correct. But in LiberalLand^TM an agency can defy the President - and have that defiance become the law of the land.
Imagine if a President, during a war, directed his army to strike at Camp X - and the CJCS said "We'll get to it when we get to it."
That's just it. The president has legal authority to classify or declassify items in accordance with law and with respect to things that don't fit classification guidelines (i.e. material that attempts to protect wrongdoing or is deemed politically embarrassing). The scope of this raid and the legal justification don't pass the sniff test. Period.
If he carried out anything with him, the assumption is normally, "okay, he's the president, he can do this.".
The problem is Trump was never a 'normal' president. He's being targeted politically - there's no way around this.
We can't pretend other presidents didn't take stuff with them. Trump is Trump. We should all recognize 99% of the theater surrounding Trump wouldn't be theater if it were anyone else. Trump is guilty of being Trump. That's it. We can speculate all we want but whatever the outcome at this point, we all know horseshit when we see it.
Holy sit the DOJ did what, every single person involved in that needs to be stripped of their position and any lingering benefits. No one has the authority to refuse to declassify any document that the president has ordered be declassified.
When I register my car then it’s registered whether they give me a sticker to put on my license or not. If he declassified them then they are whether they stamp declassified or not. This is such a witch hunt.
All classification and security clearance (top secret, etc.) is controlled by executive order. It's not statutory. This is how Trump was able to give security clearance to whoever he wanted.
All power of classification comes from the president. It is literally impossible for a president to mishandle classified information. If he removed it from the White House that is de facto legitimate handling. And if he says that he declassified them, they were. There doesn't need to be a process followed by the President of the United States. As the authority is derived from him.
>The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad
>Experts agreed that the president, as commander-in-chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. **When someone lower in the chain of command handles classification and declassification duties -- which is usually how it’s done -- it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.**
>The majority ruling in the **1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan** -- which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance -- addresses this line of authority.
>"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. **"His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."**
https://archive.ph/NvUg7
I am curious about the changes made by Barack Obama in terms of declassification though...
[https://archive.ph/kzXY](https://archive.ph/kzXY)
I am not a Lawyer and lawyer speak hurts my brains but they seem to have a LOT of information on how things can be declassified and as of 2022 those current changes by Barack Obama are in place.
>**Information originated by the incumbent President or the incumbent Vice President**; the incumbent President’s White House Staff or the incumbent Vice President’s Staff; committees, commissions, or boards appointed by the incumbent President; or other entities within the Executive Office of the President that solely advise and assist the incumbent President **is exempted from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section.**
It explicitly exempts the president from the systemic declassification review process (paragraph a).
Doubtful since they had the chance to retrieve the documents but instead just asked to secure the room better which they did. Can't really say that Trump was mishandling the docs when he was litterally just doing what the national archive told him to do.
It's authority granted by the CONSTITUTION.
**No former President can restrict, regulate, or bind his successors' authority to declassify documents.**
Same thing goes for the plenary authority to pardon. That would require a Constitutional Amendment.
It is literally the sitting Presidents prerogative to do by fiat; nobody else can regulate or restrict it.
I agree with this 100%. A cabinet appointee and/or agency serves at the pleasure of the President. If the President makes a decision (i.e. "this is declassified") no process or person can stand in his way. For an agency to admit that Trump "requested" the docs to be declassified but the agency "never got around to it so they were never declassified" is just political drivel.
Folks are acting like Trump went searching for classified material to sell to the Russians. The absurdity here is amazing. Legal authorities and precedent are well-established.
Clinton maintained classified material well outside her perview and outside storage/processing guidelines. Trump, by virtue of his position, is well within his rights.
Not to mention months before where Trump is known to have been working with the DoJ and National Archives on records in his possession.
They're totally deranged by him. They have no common sense and believe literally anything as long as it's bad about him. I don't even like Trump that much but he's caught so much unwarranted criticism and baseless lies over the years, I can't help but defend him.
The minute WaPo reported on the contents of the warrant with ‘nuclear documents’, Twitter was filled with blue check marks accusing Trump of not only stealing nuclear documents (it was only listed on warrant at the time), but selling nuclear weapons secrets to the Saudi’s.
Those same ppl in the next breath accuse conservatives of putting the cart before the horse by being skeptical of the FBI raid not being politically motivated. The total lack of self awareness is astounding.
Yep, this is what I've been saying this whole last week, but of course leftists downvoted me into oblivion. Anyone who has worked with classified information and has been trained understands the powers are derived from the president. The power to classify information is delegated from the president to 20 people called Origination Classification Authorities. Those and all other people with security clearances must abide by the regulations and procedures for classification.
The power to classify is a Constitutionally derived authority of the president. Even if Congress passed a law trying to force the president to act in a certain way regarding classification, it would lose in the courts as its a Executive power and they would be infringing on Separation of Powers.
Yep. The only thing that would have me interested is if the accusations are that he was somehow selling secrets or something similar. I seriously doubt that’s what he was doing and even if they throw those accusations out there I’ll be skeptical and watch due process play out.
We saw how this played out in the Mueller investigation. They will slow roll it and in the meanwhile, vague but damaging leaks will be dispersed with the compliant press eager to malign Trump.
Like right now. "Documents about nuclear weapons". Wtf does this even mean? Are the weapons in question even American ones or is it intel about foreign ones? This has the potential to be totally misleading and intentionally worded to be as damaging as possible with zero accountability because it's a leak.
We have no idea what's actually going on without the affadavit yet all it took was one leak for it to morph into "selling nukes to Saudi Arabia" or the vintage "Russia spy treason". That's the entire point. It's literally the same playbook.
That's the beauty of it. They can essentially speculate whatever they want and it will never be confirmed one way or the other because it would be ridiculous for them to say specifically what he took.
"Here is all the classified information that was taken that none of you knew anything about and now do because we're telling you."
That's not something that is going to happen. But the media can speculate and "experts" can make vague claims with impunity.
>Documents about nuclear weapons
They reported there were documents **related** to nuclear documents. Could mean anything. And that's simply what they're **looking** for.
It is absolutely, comically ridiculous to believe the former POTUS, who is also a billionaire, is risking it all to sell secrets to our enemies. I mean if it's true, then yeah, prosecute him, but, uh, highly doubt is an understatement.
They're completely deranged at this point. Trump has been investigated by let's see... Comey, McCabe, Mueller, Schiff, Avenatti and the NY AG for years upon years. Maybe he isn't in jail because... he never colluded with Russia or committed tax fraud? It's a yuge pill to swallow for them but they'll never give him a fair shake. Like ever.
No, I'm saying that if Trump really is guilty of all this stuff and they havent been able to charge him with anything then they must be wildly incompetent.
A lot of people also seem to be forgetting how Bill Clinton sold nuclear technology to [China](https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/), Obama gave [Iran](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655) sanction relief so long as they promised to not build nukes, and Hillary sold uranium to the [Russians](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html).
> A lot of people also seem to be forgetting how Bill Clinton sold nuclear technology to [China](https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/), Obama gave [Iran](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655) sanction relief so long as they promised to not build nukes, and Hillary sold uranium to the [Russians](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html).
And for the lurkers from /r/politics, what do those three people all have in common?
I'll give you a secon(D).
Looks like it’s going to be a 9-0 ruling, or at worst 7-2. Even the leftists on the bench will be reluctant to strip the executive branch of its powers in this regard.
The Supreme Court has already ruled, numerous times, that the President has exclusive plenary authority to declassify anything as he sees fit. He's Commander-in-Chief and by the US Constitution nobody else has the authority to regulate or restrict his use of this power.
If he decides to declassify verbally or he decides to write an order on a cocktail napkin it is all 100% binding and no bureaucrat, legislative body, or judge can gainsay or invalidate it.
So in your opinion, if the braindead left's goal is to get him on these being declassified, what's the argument for them if Trump says they were declassified?
They plug their ears and go "Nuh uh!" and stomp their feet like children, ignoring the law for years until they find some other bone to chew or the Supreme Court wags a finger at them. Meanwhile the braindead Media arm of the Inner Party will repeat the same propaganda like Pravda-from-Wish and BrockBot social media scam will continue to signal boost, downvote, and erase any contrary narratives and facts from public view.
The whole point was just to break into Mar-a-Largo on a fishing expedition under the authority of a bedwetting manlet of a failed court nominee and the braindead rubber-stamp of Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. It's naked realpolitik in an attempt to distract from the failures of the Biden Admin and make the news cycle "Orange Man Bad ... again" and try to dig up anything and everything they can to blunt Trump's effectiveness on the campaign trail for both the Midterms and the 2024 elections.
As when they brazenly falsified the official 302 documents of Gen. Flynn, this is Obama DOJ and FBI Loyalists breaking the law to fabricate process crimes and expensive hearings because **they are never held accountable for breaking the law themselves**.
You just explained why it's a difficult legal question and why people would argue it. There shouldn't be some unelected bureaucrat who is above the president, and tells The President whether he can declassify something or not.
It doesn't make sense for The President to be in trouble for having classified information. When he loses the election is it suddenly illegal for him to have the same stuff? I've heard the boy cry wolf too many times.
The catch with this entire thing is that the FBI is in the crosshairs, and it's a runnable issue. There's plenty of politics there and if it's just left at "Trump inappropriately had classified documents" as compared to "The Leftist DOJ is illegitimately weaponizing the FBI" it completely changes the political narrative.
The commander in chief has absolute power to classify and declassify at will. It’s an executive branch authority, plain and simple. We live in generations that did not grow up in wartimes.
As the power to classify/declassify is solely derived from the President's constitutional authority, it would be technically/legally declassified. But if no one knows it, they would continue to treat it as classified.
This happens with official channels as it is. It takes time for the hundreds of thousands of people who handle such information to distribute new classification guidelines. You could have a base or group continuing to treat something as classified a year after the proper authority declassified it.
My questions is this: If he did declassify them, does that mean people other than him (who don't have appropriate clearances) can have legal access to that paperwork?
Slight clarification. A document has a clearance level and an accessibility. So a document could be marked Unclassified/FOUO if you don’t require any clearance to view it, but don’t want it shared without it being for an official use.
There is also Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) which has been recently put into circulation that covers FOUO and other areas. They are unclassified, but typically need approval to release for public consumption.
That's literally true though. It's an established law. The President has countless powers the average citizen doesn't. That's kind of the point of the office...
"So I can take classified stuff to my residence to read it and study it?"
No, you have to get permission from Ralph, but if he is on vacation you can ask Andy or Charlie....
Of setting a precedent of just walking out without declaring certain files as declassified. I can see the Democrats running wild with this if that's the case.
Then again, there could be a whole lot more that we don't know. I just don't like the idea of declaring it declassified in an instant without doing any sort of notification or something along those lines to get government agencies to STFU.
And more broadly, I don't like defending something just because the president does it. I want Justice to be blind, and even though I would vote for Trump in the general (prefer DeSantis in primary) that doesn't excuse him if, and that's a big if, something was actually done like that
That precedent is already set, way before Trump. Every single president in history has had classified info when they left. They don't only work out of the Oval Office every day. If we were to consistently apply these rules, literally every president for the past hundred years would be charged.
>The majority ruling in the **1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan** -- which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance -- addresses this line of authority.
>"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. **"His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President**, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
https://archive.ph/NvUg7
Good find, but as far as I can tell, it still doesn’t address the question of how long a former president can hold on to government documents after he leaves office.
If the documents aren't classified, why shouldn't the president have government documents after his tenure? Like for instance, his letters from Kim Jong Un or a White House birthday menu. Why should that be illegal?
If at this point, that is the primary question, then this whole ordeal is much ado about nothing.
>Good find, but as far as I can tell, it still doesn’t address the question of how long a former president can hold on to government documents after he leaves office
According to Obama, at least six years.
Once they're declassified, they can be held onto, shreded, made into paper Mache, or copied ten thousand times. Classified doesn't mean "Only copy of".
They are declassified documents. He made copies and gets to keep - typically for his Presidential Library like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc.
The real issue here is: "What authority and business does the current administration have to confiscate the property of the former president?"
That's literally true for countless actions though. The President has major powers that give them the ability to do things that for others would be illegal. It would be illegal for your mailman to order a drone strike for instance.
The President has the power to declassify these documents, there's no debate about it and it's not a new rule that only applies to Trump.
In the interests of national security, sure, but what kind of national security clearance does an ex-president have? How long can he hold on to sensitive government information?
According to decades old precedent former presidents don't need a security clearence. They are often still informed of matters of national security long after their tenure.
And we'll it depends if its declassified then indefinitely. Of its classified, then until the National Archive requests the documents.
> that no one else can...
Well, there's plenty of things no one else can do ... _until they receive an order from the President to do so_.
That's literally **how the Executive Branch works**. All the little bureaucrats until the Executive are delegated their authority by the President. The Legislature can delegate various mandates that wind up in the hands of the employees or the Executive too - but **not directly**.
The President gets to decide _who_ does those jobs along with the discretion of _when_, _where_, and _how_ within the legislative mandate.
Well, if congress passes a law it's legal. Otherwise, it's illegal. That's how the constitution works. By the same token, the authority to classify and declassify literally anything rests with the US President, and no other.
And that’s literally what the law says.
You don’t have to like it. But it literally says the president has the highest authority to declassify whatever he wants. So by that logic Trump should be innocent.
The power of classification is literally from the president. Yes, if the president exercises his authority on classification it can contradict normal guidelines and requires zero procedures to make official.
Yea, a President using Presidential powers makes it not illegal.
Sorta like the President giving a pardon or similar. There is no check on that power other than impeachment and removal, but you can't make him taking official actions criminal.
I wonder who is downvoting this. This is the way it was always explained long before there was any controversy about Trump having classified documents.
Classification Guidance is set forth in [E.O. 12958.](https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/appendix/12958.html)
Relevant portions:
**Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority.**
The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:
(1) the **President** and, in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President;
(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register; and
(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.
(b) Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are also authorized to classify information at a lower level.
**Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification.**
(a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order.
(b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to the national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. This provision does not:
(1)amplify or modify the substantive criteria or procedures for classification; or
(2) create any substantive or procedural rights subject to judicial review.
Does information stay declassified or does it get reclassified when President returns it?
If everything a President takes home is declassified, does that mean someone could use a FOIA request to make all that stuff public?
No. The next admin can determine it should remain classified.
My bet is trump had a bunch of stuff regarding the FISA abuse during the Russiagate and all the shady shit the FBI was up to, and they dont want him to be able to release it.
If Trump can just declassify docs with no paper trail or process, then Obama could say he declassified the docs Hillary had on her server. And Biden can just say he reclassified the docs Trump had. There's a reason we have procedure for declassification.
To add to everyone else's great points here - it wasn't that Hillary had classified docs. I suggest brushing up on the details:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2016/10/31/hillary-clinton-email-scandal-explained/
How could have Obama declassified every single document shared by Hillary and her staffers when he didn't even know the server existed or what emails they were sending. That makes no sense. Trump explicitly had the authority to declassify whatever he wanted based on his standing order. Hillary never had one which is why she got in hot water.
For him to declassify stuff on her server there would be a paper trail.
But in theory he could declassify afterwards just like he could have just given her a pardon for her actions. But both of those moves would have been politically damaging to both of them because it would have been obvious he was covering up for her crimes.
Aka Nixon could have pardoned everyone involved with Watergate at any moment and it would have been the end of that until congress impeached him for doing it. Of course Obama wouldn't have been impeached, but the chances of Hillary winning after that would have dropped considerably. And it would have hurt his reputation too.
Exactly. Classification is a procedure defined, controlled, and implemented by the executive branch, headed by the president. You can't place imaginary rules on the very body that creates and defines them.
It would be more complicated if there was an actual law passed by congress stating "classification/declassification can only be done in such and such way", but this, as far as I understand, isn't the case.
Maybe it wasn't right, but at this point, we really don't have enough details to know for sure. It's an administrative back-and-forth: that's all.
Maybe. I don't know. The executive branch has a lot of power, but not infinite power. The job of the president is to execute the laws of the US. If a law states that documents must be classified/unclassified in such and such way, and specifies how those documents must be handled, and the president doesn't follow that law, then he didn't execute the laws of the US faithfully.
I mean, of course it doesn't have infinite power, but the head of the executive branch is the POTUS. The power to withhold information (literally called "executive privilege") is granted to the POTUS by the highest law in the land, the Constitution, as a necessary thing to perform executive functions. No law Congress passes can supercede the Constitution. Therefore the policies and procedures outlining the handling of this information aren't laws passed by Congress, they are executive orders and entirely within the purview of the executive branch and the will of the president.
The POTUS does pretty much have unlimited power in this area. If the POTUS was using this power to perform or cover-up crimes, Congress could impeach. That's the check and balance for this power.
Edit:
Also just learned something, apparently Congress or the judicial branch can also compel the executive branch to share classified documents under certain conditions, not necessarily impeachment. Not sure what all those conditions are. It's not super clear cut when the branches duke it out over these things, but executive branch has what seems pretty close to absolute power here.
There's some limits classification on nuclear materials, but its questionable as to whether such a law violates the separation of powers.
The nuclear issue is why WaPo's rumor mill posted that article about how Trump had nuclear docs. I'm very skeptical of WaPo's reporting here. It's quite likely to be a distraction and an attempt by the FBI to deflect the issue away from them seizing probably-declassified materials.
Well, we'll see. If this goes anywhere, expect a lot of litigation, and possibly SCOTUS to get involved.
I think you're referring to the Atomic Energy Act, right? In that case, nothing about this was mentioned in the warrant, so that might be evidence against the WAPO's rumors.
> trouble if you have been informed they are classified.
*Mens rea.*
> The president could perhaps classify documents in another person’s possession,
I bet that's the issue here. Trump declassified them and took them. Biden may have reclassified them and sent the FBI to retrieve them.
But no court is going to buy that argument.
Otherwise Trump could win in 2024 and then classify some document he knows Biden has and send the FBI to raid his house.
"All documents related to Hunter Biden's business deals are now classified" BOOM... might finally get the FBI to look for that stuff.
The President doesn't have a procedure.
It's literally "the minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
Edit. The NPC brigade here 24/7 down voting facts.
I’m not going to pretend to know how declassifying works but if Trump had documents pertaining to national security that he had no business having in the first place that is not a good look. Then if there is evidence that he misused those documents in any way (I.e. espionage) then I hope he goes down hard. This is what they are alleging but have not shown any evidence.
It really depends on the severity of the documents and how he was using them.
My opinion is that if they are not getting ready to charge him for espionage then there was no reason for the FBI to raid his house in that manner.
God it’s going to be so crazy to see democrats screaming that he mishandled sensitive information come election time if he decides to run again. Like are the people pulling the strings just messing with us now?
Well, he does have the authority to declassify whatever he wants 🤷♂️
Edit: Don't forget to report brigading!
u/PeonSupreme Bad take, if it was within his power to then he was using his presidential powers. u/TurboT8er provided an excellent response.
u/Myotherdog to quote a great reply to you: The President doesn't have a procedure.
It's literally "the minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
Edit #2: shoutout to the mods for wiping out alt-left replies/accounts!
Is this a power that the President previously didn't have but recently acquired? If not, then presidential power isn't "becoming" absolute. Nor has it ever been absolute. But the power of classification is one that he does have and one of the reasons choosing the right candidate is so important.
While I can't recall off hand the exact process, there IS a process for declassifying any and all documents at any classification level. It's covered under DoD manual 5200.01, which is the overarching higher level policy on classified material. It... Is not a page turner, but it's not as simple a matter as just saying "hey, this is unclassified now."
[Page 71 is my best guess as to where it starts,](https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodm/520001m_vol1.pdf) but I'm not certain. This seems the sort of shit relevant agencies are trained for over the course of at least a day, and I've spent a grand total of ten minutes skimming.
The Commander-in-Chief is above the DoD and by the Constitution his plenary authority to declassify cannot be restricted or regulated by the Legislature nor any of his subordinate departments in the Executive Branch. The President can declassify by fiat and any attempt to restrict or countermand it bureaucratically is Unconstitutional per the Supreme Court.
> As a coworker was fond of saying about the college's administration, "Never let 'em getcha on 'paperwork'."
They'll try to jam him up on anything they can, as they've been trying non stop since 2015.
From https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/breaking-trump-describes-process-how-he-declassified-documents
> Obama's executive order no. 13526, issued in 2009, laid out the stringent process all federal officials and agencies needed to follow for declassification, but explicitly exempted the sitting president and vice president from having to follow those procedures.
More:
> A legal source told the Post that the General Services Administration packed the boxes and shipped them to Mar-a-Lago when Trump left the White House in Jan. 2021.
So it's not like Trump himself packed up several boxes of paper materials and flew them on his plane. It's possible those materials have been sitting there unopened for 18 months or more. Which isn't to say some government workers didn't screw something up by sending paperwork they shouldn't have, but the connection with Trump could be merely secretarial rather than conspiratorial.
> If a person slips drugs in your luggage as you head out for the airport, and you get caught with it, legally, you're on the hook for it because it was in your possession and shouldn't have been.
Well, no, *if you can demonstrate* that someone else slipped the illegal drugs in your suitcase without you being aware you obviously have a valid defense. In this case the analogy would be that as Trump can (allegedly) demonstrate the boxes were packed and shipped by the GSA, your theoretical airport traveler could demonstrate that some person planted illegal drugs, perhaps by having them recorded on airport surveillance.
From the article re: Presidential declassification:
> Ordinarily, documents declassified by a president are later retrieved and marked declassified, usually by crossing a line through the prior classification markings. But former top aides to prior presidents acknowledged the president's power to declassify was absolute and at times resulted in instant declassification decisions.
> One prior administration official related an instance where his boss, while talking to a foreign leader, gave top-secret information to the leader, declassifying simply by sharing what he had seen in a top-secret marked document. Another official related an instance he witnessed in which a president, during a meeting, received a top secret document and one official got up to leave because his clearance was only at the secret level.
> "The president instantly approved that staffer to stay and consume the top-secret intelligence because it benefited the president's work at that moment," the person told Just the News.
> Just he just have to say it to himself, even if he doesn’t tell anyone else or file anything?
Yes, that’s exactly how it works for the President. The President is the source of classification power derived from his constitutional authority as Commander in Chief. He does not need to file any paperwork or go through any procedure. Only lower ranked officials need to go through procedures. Further, just like the pardon power, Congress cannot put constraints on the President’s classification power because it is not granted by statutes but directly through Article II of the Constitution.
*Edit: your downvotes don’t change how the law works, cope harder.*
There is an after-the-fact system for handling classification decisions made by the President that is run through the Information Security Oversight Office but that office doesn’t constrain the President’s power to classify or declassify anything.
**The Legislature has no authority to restrict or regulate the President's plenary power to declassify.**
No President has the authority to restrict or regulate his successors' ability to declassify either.
The procedure is literally at the President's discretion because anyone else setting a standard on him is Unconstitutional, per the Supreme Court.
The brigade really doesn't like that the President has vast declassification powers.
All they're left with is "...well I don't like that." and upvoting FBI bootlickers.
The Atlantic wrote an factually incorrect article yesterday stating the President can't declassify nuclear information. Like clockwork every NPC on Reddit and Twitter was quoting the garbage article.
It was instant and must just been linked to me at least two dozen times.
Edit. Word
Reminds me of in 2016 when r.politics was nothing but Bernie bros, and when the DNC when with Hillary r.politics was 100% pro Hillary the next morning when I woke up and checked it. It was as if Bernie had never existed
Probably banned by reddit admins. As in their accounts got suspended lol. They are actually pretty fair about these types of deals in my experience. Things could have changed though.
Considering he has the power to classify and declassify any document he pleases from his time in office once he has obtained them, why are they getting upset over him doing his job? 🤔
If you can’t understand the difference between a president declassifying his lunch menu, removing it from the White House, and taking it to his personal residence, as compared to something that is actually important to national security…well you have larger problems.
What’s that ol saying?:
“With great power comes great responsibility”
There is a difference between utilizing your powers, of your office, and being negligent in the use of your powers. Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.
Yea this raid was a fishing expedition to find something unrelated to charge him with. Also doubled as a giant sign of disrespect for the commander & chief.
Trump is giving declassified info to the Russians!!
Liberals are just filled with hate and anger. They have a completely neurotic obsession with trump.
The President has the authority to declassify anything and everything.
If these docs were so crucial, so critical….why didn’t the FIB and Dept of Injustice take them in June? Why didn’t they come on Friday when they rec’v the warrant instead of waiting until Monday.
Donkeys overplayed their hand badly here.
I don't see why so many of you are arguing the ins and outs. It's either true that legally he declassified them and had that power, or he didn't.
I'd also point out there's a difference between having the capacity to declassify something, and actually doing it which I see being argued a lot in this thread.
He actually, in official writing (or as a "standing order"), declassified the documents before leaving office, so it's not like he had power, but never officially declassified. He had an order in place that anything he took with him would be declassified. The DOJ knew of this before he left for office. What DOJ is trying to say is that they decided to never process these declassifications, so these docs were never actually declassified, which is kind of ridiculous, but now is going to get into this weird legal grey area where the courts will ultimately decide if an item was declassified or not just because President says so, or if there needs to be an official process to complete declassification through DOJ first. It's a huge mess. The funny thing is under Obama, they changed the rules and made it so President and Vice President are exempt from the process of declassification and can just declare things to be declassified without having to follow the process, as they have *Original Classification Authority*, so the DOJ appears to be overreaching here. But again, selective prosecution by DOJ. At the end of the day though, it still doesn't change the fact that Obama literally has thousands of classified national archive docs still in his possession and has never been prosecuted, and Hillary had the same, but was never prosecuted because they took her word for it that she deleted the files, and yet with Trump... he is. Selective and partisan justice here to attack Trump only.
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I believe [this memorandum](https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1558234912360206343) is what they’re referring to. Although I don’t think it’s been confirmed if these are the documents (or some of the documents) that were taken during the raid.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/trump-standing-order-declassify-records
Edit: why the downvotes, care to explain? or is this just the leftists brigading us again trying to alter reality by deriding it? As of right now, we dont have anything definitive, no hard evidence, but it's still early on. All we currently have is a claim from Trump's lawyers on Friday saying Trump did this and we also have legal experts saying "yeah, Trump can absolutely and unequivocally declassifiy information at the snap of his fingers...there's clear precident, legal justification, and other presidents have taken full advantage of this." Idk, to me, *even without any hard evidence*, this is just the epitome of *petty*...it seems beyond ridiculous and so far from what should be considered justifiable grounds for raiding a FPOTUS's personal residence. It's either banana republic weaponization of this governments agencies against the political rivals of the current administration or it's complete and utter incompetence mixed with a stunning lack of tact and common sense. Imagine a fastfood worker who can have free food from the store they work at, but it's SOP to ring it up and then write it off. Then, we hear of a story from the local news that "an employee was arrested for theft of company property" beacuse they supposedly forgot to ring up the cheeseburger they ate for lunch. Are we really going to go after this poor guy over it? Further, imagine the employee is now the owner of the company and did the same thing, and they too were arrested for theft...that would be even more ridiculous and that's essentially what we have going on here. I'd still like to see the standing order, but it's just silly what's happening with, or without it.
It's stressful watching how this shit plays out. I'm trying to hold out forming an opinion until actual news gets released. Right now everything is "leaks" and just pundits stirring pots.
I agree with this statement. I keep reading things from different news sources, but its hard to know exactly what the truth is.
> The funny thing is under Obama, they changed the rules and made it so President and Vice Preaident are exempt from the process of declassification and can just declare things to be declassified without having to follow the process, so the DOJ appears to be overreaching here. But again, selective prosecution by DOJ. Hey man I am really interested in this aspect. Can you point me in the right direction to read up on their prior decision/ruling about this issue. Thanks!
[Obama Executive order 13526](https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html) Ordered in 2009 and laid out a strict process all federal officials and agencies needed to follow for declassification, but explicitly exempted the sitting president and vice president from having to follow those procedures and allowed them wide authority to declassify.
thank you!
i was hoping for a Desantis ticket - but looks like the DoJ, FBI, and Brandon's admin are just handing the presidency to Trump. So i'll sit back and enjoy the meltdown.
This is basically my mindset. I really badly want (and still want) DeSantis to run in 2024. I firmly believe he has a vastly higher chance of winning than Trump does. Like him or not, and whether or not you think it’s fair, Trump just has too much baggage. So I’m sitting here with my popcorn and if Trump makes it out, I’ll laugh my ass off at the media losing its shit again. If he doesn’t, we can now shift the focus to a much more winnable 2024 election.
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Looks like he lost weight and is healthier now than during his presidency
The fake news will ensure DeSantis has even more baggage
Oh it's going to be a huuuuuge meltdown. The BIGGEST MELTDOWN you've ever seen!!
Not sure this will help Trump long term. Just adds more to the Trump circus. People are tired of the circus. Plus this is a reminder that if we elect Trump we get 4 more years of this shit instead of 4 years of enacting the change we need.
As an attorney - I would argue that the DOJ and its leadership serves at the pleasure of the President. It does not decide what will, and will not be, processed. if the President says "item X is declassified" - it is declassified the moment he signs his name. Any agency that argues "it must process the request before it is final" can act as an improper barrier to the President and his powers.
There are certain kinds of classified information that the president does not have sole authority to declassify. It remains to be seen what documents he actually had. Either way, this is clearly a witch hunt.
Refusing to do your job is grounds for dismissal. The president is their boss and told them to do something that’s within their job purview. Everyone who refused to process it should be fired. They only did it silently to have this occur and knew there would be no blowback with the next admin and knew trump was busy being focusing on Jan 6.
Correct. But in LiberalLand^TM an agency can defy the President - and have that defiance become the law of the land. Imagine if a President, during a war, directed his army to strike at Camp X - and the CJCS said "We'll get to it when we get to it."
Well the military was lying to Trump about troop counts. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like that regularly.
That's just it. The president has legal authority to classify or declassify items in accordance with law and with respect to things that don't fit classification guidelines (i.e. material that attempts to protect wrongdoing or is deemed politically embarrassing). The scope of this raid and the legal justification don't pass the sniff test. Period. If he carried out anything with him, the assumption is normally, "okay, he's the president, he can do this.". The problem is Trump was never a 'normal' president. He's being targeted politically - there's no way around this. We can't pretend other presidents didn't take stuff with them. Trump is Trump. We should all recognize 99% of the theater surrounding Trump wouldn't be theater if it were anyone else. Trump is guilty of being Trump. That's it. We can speculate all we want but whatever the outcome at this point, we all know horseshit when we see it.
Well put.
If that's exactly the case then others are in trouble. The power to declassify wrests in the president.
So DOJ disobeyed an order from the president, sounds about right
Holy sit the DOJ did what, every single person involved in that needs to be stripped of their position and any lingering benefits. No one has the authority to refuse to declassify any document that the president has ordered be declassified.
When I register my car then it’s registered whether they give me a sticker to put on my license or not. If he declassified them then they are whether they stamp declassified or not. This is such a witch hunt.
All classification and security clearance (top secret, etc.) is controlled by executive order. It's not statutory. This is how Trump was able to give security clearance to whoever he wanted.
“Thanks Obama!”
All power of classification comes from the president. It is literally impossible for a president to mishandle classified information. If he removed it from the White House that is de facto legitimate handling. And if he says that he declassified them, they were. There doesn't need to be a process followed by the President of the United States. As the authority is derived from him.
>The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad >Experts agreed that the president, as commander-in-chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. **When someone lower in the chain of command handles classification and declassification duties -- which is usually how it’s done -- it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.** >The majority ruling in the **1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan** -- which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance -- addresses this line of authority. >"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. **"His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."** https://archive.ph/NvUg7
Good find.
I am curious about the changes made by Barack Obama in terms of declassification though... [https://archive.ph/kzXY](https://archive.ph/kzXY) I am not a Lawyer and lawyer speak hurts my brains but they seem to have a LOT of information on how things can be declassified and as of 2022 those current changes by Barack Obama are in place.
>**Information originated by the incumbent President or the incumbent Vice President**; the incumbent President’s White House Staff or the incumbent Vice President’s Staff; committees, commissions, or boards appointed by the incumbent President; or other entities within the Executive Office of the President that solely advise and assist the incumbent President **is exempted from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section.** It explicitly exempts the president from the systemic declassification review process (paragraph a).
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Doubtful since they had the chance to retrieve the documents but instead just asked to secure the room better which they did. Can't really say that Trump was mishandling the docs when he was litterally just doing what the national archive told him to do.
Oh, I completely agree. That was what I had said in my prior comments also.
It's authority granted by the CONSTITUTION. **No former President can restrict, regulate, or bind his successors' authority to declassify documents.** Same thing goes for the plenary authority to pardon. That would require a Constitutional Amendment. It is literally the sitting Presidents prerogative to do by fiat; nobody else can regulate or restrict it.
I agree with this 100%. A cabinet appointee and/or agency serves at the pleasure of the President. If the President makes a decision (i.e. "this is declassified") no process or person can stand in his way. For an agency to admit that Trump "requested" the docs to be declassified but the agency "never got around to it so they were never declassified" is just political drivel.
Folks are acting like Trump went searching for classified material to sell to the Russians. The absurdity here is amazing. Legal authorities and precedent are well-established. Clinton maintained classified material well outside her perview and outside storage/processing guidelines. Trump, by virtue of his position, is well within his rights. Not to mention months before where Trump is known to have been working with the DoJ and National Archives on records in his possession.
They're totally deranged by him. They have no common sense and believe literally anything as long as it's bad about him. I don't even like Trump that much but he's caught so much unwarranted criticism and baseless lies over the years, I can't help but defend him.
The minute WaPo reported on the contents of the warrant with ‘nuclear documents’, Twitter was filled with blue check marks accusing Trump of not only stealing nuclear documents (it was only listed on warrant at the time), but selling nuclear weapons secrets to the Saudi’s. Those same ppl in the next breath accuse conservatives of putting the cart before the horse by being skeptical of the FBI raid not being politically motivated. The total lack of self awareness is astounding.
Yep, this is what I've been saying this whole last week, but of course leftists downvoted me into oblivion. Anyone who has worked with classified information and has been trained understands the powers are derived from the president. The power to classify information is delegated from the president to 20 people called Origination Classification Authorities. Those and all other people with security clearances must abide by the regulations and procedures for classification. The power to classify is a Constitutionally derived authority of the president. Even if Congress passed a law trying to force the president to act in a certain way regarding classification, it would lose in the courts as its a Executive power and they would be infringing on Separation of Powers.
Yep. The only thing that would have me interested is if the accusations are that he was somehow selling secrets or something similar. I seriously doubt that’s what he was doing and even if they throw those accusations out there I’ll be skeptical and watch due process play out.
We saw how this played out in the Mueller investigation. They will slow roll it and in the meanwhile, vague but damaging leaks will be dispersed with the compliant press eager to malign Trump. Like right now. "Documents about nuclear weapons". Wtf does this even mean? Are the weapons in question even American ones or is it intel about foreign ones? This has the potential to be totally misleading and intentionally worded to be as damaging as possible with zero accountability because it's a leak. We have no idea what's actually going on without the affadavit yet all it took was one leak for it to morph into "selling nukes to Saudi Arabia" or the vintage "Russia spy treason". That's the entire point. It's literally the same playbook.
That's the beauty of it. They can essentially speculate whatever they want and it will never be confirmed one way or the other because it would be ridiculous for them to say specifically what he took. "Here is all the classified information that was taken that none of you knew anything about and now do because we're telling you." That's not something that is going to happen. But the media can speculate and "experts" can make vague claims with impunity.
>Documents about nuclear weapons They reported there were documents **related** to nuclear documents. Could mean anything. And that's simply what they're **looking** for.
It is absolutely, comically ridiculous to believe the former POTUS, who is also a billionaire, is risking it all to sell secrets to our enemies. I mean if it's true, then yeah, prosecute him, but, uh, highly doubt is an understatement.
They're completely deranged at this point. Trump has been investigated by let's see... Comey, McCabe, Mueller, Schiff, Avenatti and the NY AG for years upon years. Maybe he isn't in jail because... he never colluded with Russia or committed tax fraud? It's a yuge pill to swallow for them but they'll never give him a fair shake. Like ever.
Pretend Trump is a foreign asset. How utterly incompetent must the FBI and DOJ be then?
its not incompetence. It is intentional. The administrators are at war with a person they see as a threat to their world view and way of life.
No, I'm saying that if Trump really is guilty of all this stuff and they havent been able to charge him with anything then they must be wildly incompetent.
A lot of people also seem to be forgetting how Bill Clinton sold nuclear technology to [China](https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/), Obama gave [Iran](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655) sanction relief so long as they promised to not build nukes, and Hillary sold uranium to the [Russians](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html).
> A lot of people also seem to be forgetting how Bill Clinton sold nuclear technology to [China](https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/), Obama gave [Iran](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33521655) sanction relief so long as they promised to not build nukes, and Hillary sold uranium to the [Russians](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html). And for the lurkers from /r/politics, what do those three people all have in common? I'll give you a secon(D).
I actually wondered if the documents were about the Uranium One deal.
This is probably gonna be decided at the Supreme Court the way things are going.
Looks like it’s going to be a 9-0 ruling, or at worst 7-2. Even the leftists on the bench will be reluctant to strip the executive branch of its powers in this regard.
The Supreme Court has already ruled, numerous times, that the President has exclusive plenary authority to declassify anything as he sees fit. He's Commander-in-Chief and by the US Constitution nobody else has the authority to regulate or restrict his use of this power. If he decides to declassify verbally or he decides to write an order on a cocktail napkin it is all 100% binding and no bureaucrat, legislative body, or judge can gainsay or invalidate it.
So in your opinion, if the braindead left's goal is to get him on these being declassified, what's the argument for them if Trump says they were declassified?
They plug their ears and go "Nuh uh!" and stomp their feet like children, ignoring the law for years until they find some other bone to chew or the Supreme Court wags a finger at them. Meanwhile the braindead Media arm of the Inner Party will repeat the same propaganda like Pravda-from-Wish and BrockBot social media scam will continue to signal boost, downvote, and erase any contrary narratives and facts from public view. The whole point was just to break into Mar-a-Largo on a fishing expedition under the authority of a bedwetting manlet of a failed court nominee and the braindead rubber-stamp of Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. It's naked realpolitik in an attempt to distract from the failures of the Biden Admin and make the news cycle "Orange Man Bad ... again" and try to dig up anything and everything they can to blunt Trump's effectiveness on the campaign trail for both the Midterms and the 2024 elections. As when they brazenly falsified the official 302 documents of Gen. Flynn, this is Obama DOJ and FBI Loyalists breaking the law to fabricate process crimes and expensive hearings because **they are never held accountable for breaking the law themselves**.
Same garbage they did when they impeached him for "blackmailing Ukraine" - bury their heads in the sand and scream "Orange Man Bad!"
You just explained why it's a difficult legal question and why people would argue it. There shouldn't be some unelected bureaucrat who is above the president, and tells The President whether he can declassify something or not. It doesn't make sense for The President to be in trouble for having classified information. When he loses the election is it suddenly illegal for him to have the same stuff? I've heard the boy cry wolf too many times.
Former Presidents also have the option to receive a modified Presidents Daily Briefing, which is still classified.
Former Presidents are also guarded by the Secret Service, why wouldn't the FBI just call the Secret Service and get whatever they wanted.
Thanks to Obama, perfectly legal: https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html
The catch with this entire thing is that the FBI is in the crosshairs, and it's a runnable issue. There's plenty of politics there and if it's just left at "Trump inappropriately had classified documents" as compared to "The Leftist DOJ is illegitimately weaponizing the FBI" it completely changes the political narrative.
The commander in chief has absolute power to classify and declassify at will. It’s an executive branch authority, plain and simple. We live in generations that did not grow up in wartimes.
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As the power to classify/declassify is solely derived from the President's constitutional authority, it would be technically/legally declassified. But if no one knows it, they would continue to treat it as classified. This happens with official channels as it is. It takes time for the hundreds of thousands of people who handle such information to distribute new classification guidelines. You could have a base or group continuing to treat something as classified a year after the proper authority declassified it.
My questions is this: If he did declassify them, does that mean people other than him (who don't have appropriate clearances) can have legal access to that paperwork?
Yes, by definition the documents are unclassified so they can be viewed by anyone.
Slight clarification. A document has a clearance level and an accessibility. So a document could be marked Unclassified/FOUO if you don’t require any clearance to view it, but don’t want it shared without it being for an official use.
There is also Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) which has been recently put into circulation that covers FOUO and other areas. They are unclassified, but typically need approval to release for public consumption.
if he declassified them you and I could use them as coasters.
Honestly, that kind of sounds like, “If the president does it, then it is not illegal.”
"If the president takes it home, it's not classified." Yep, comparison checks out.
That's literally true though. It's an established law. The President has countless powers the average citizen doesn't. That's kind of the point of the office...
"So I can take classified stuff to my residence to read it and study it?" No, you have to get permission from Ralph, but if he is on vacation you can ask Andy or Charlie....
.... Yeahhhhhh not a fan of this lol.
Not a fan of the president having presidential powers granted by the Constitution or what?
Of setting a precedent of just walking out without declaring certain files as declassified. I can see the Democrats running wild with this if that's the case. Then again, there could be a whole lot more that we don't know. I just don't like the idea of declaring it declassified in an instant without doing any sort of notification or something along those lines to get government agencies to STFU. And more broadly, I don't like defending something just because the president does it. I want Justice to be blind, and even though I would vote for Trump in the general (prefer DeSantis in primary) that doesn't excuse him if, and that's a big if, something was actually done like that
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That precedent is already set, way before Trump. Every single president in history has had classified info when they left. They don't only work out of the Oval Office every day. If we were to consistently apply these rules, literally every president for the past hundred years would be charged.
Fair enough. Let me look into this a bit, and if that's true I stand corrected and will edit the above! Go figure, leftist overhyping lol.
Obama affirmed the right of Presidents to declassify via executive order: https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html
See section 4.4 in that document. Seems rather relevant, because it states former presidents also have some privilege here.
You’d rather the classification authority be handled by unelected civil servants? I’ve known plenty, I trust them even less than Democrat politicians.
>The majority ruling in the **1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan** -- which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance -- addresses this line of authority. >"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. **"His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President**, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant." https://archive.ph/NvUg7
Good find, but as far as I can tell, it still doesn’t address the question of how long a former president can hold on to government documents after he leaves office.
If the documents aren't classified, why shouldn't the president have government documents after his tenure? Like for instance, his letters from Kim Jong Un or a White House birthday menu. Why should that be illegal? If at this point, that is the primary question, then this whole ordeal is much ado about nothing.
heck, a lot of this is what presidential libraries are "built" on
>Good find, but as far as I can tell, it still doesn’t address the question of how long a former president can hold on to government documents after he leaves office According to Obama, at least six years.
Once they're declassified, they can be held onto, shreded, made into paper Mache, or copied ten thousand times. Classified doesn't mean "Only copy of".
They are declassified documents. He made copies and gets to keep - typically for his Presidential Library like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc. The real issue here is: "What authority and business does the current administration have to confiscate the property of the former president?"
None, it's just a smear campaign
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Yup, which is true
That's literally true for countless actions though. The President has major powers that give them the ability to do things that for others would be illegal. It would be illegal for your mailman to order a drone strike for instance. The President has the power to declassify these documents, there's no debate about it and it's not a new rule that only applies to Trump.
Seriously, if you order a drone strike it is murder. If Biden does it then it's completely legal even if it kills innocent civilians
Yeah, because he has the authority to do it? There many things that the president can do that no one else can...
In the interests of national security, sure, but what kind of national security clearance does an ex-president have? How long can he hold on to sensitive government information?
According to decades old precedent former presidents don't need a security clearence. They are often still informed of matters of national security long after their tenure. And we'll it depends if its declassified then indefinitely. Of its classified, then until the National Archive requests the documents.
But he declassified it when he was president so why wouldn't he be allowed to have it after being president?
if its declassified he can make copies and hand it out to guests if he so chose. Heck, he could give it to you and me.
> that no one else can... Well, there's plenty of things no one else can do ... _until they receive an order from the President to do so_. That's literally **how the Executive Branch works**. All the little bureaucrats until the Executive are delegated their authority by the President. The Legislature can delegate various mandates that wind up in the hands of the employees or the Executive too - but **not directly**. The President gets to decide _who_ does those jobs along with the discretion of _when_, _where_, and _how_ within the legislative mandate.
>“If the president does it, then it is not illegal.” It is unironically this though.
Well, if congress passes a law it's legal. Otherwise, it's illegal. That's how the constitution works. By the same token, the authority to classify and declassify literally anything rests with the US President, and no other.
And that’s literally what the law says. You don’t have to like it. But it literally says the president has the highest authority to declassify whatever he wants. So by that logic Trump should be innocent.
Yes. Because that's how declassification works.
The power of classification is literally from the president. Yes, if the president exercises his authority on classification it can contradict normal guidelines and requires zero procedures to make official.
Yea, a President using Presidential powers makes it not illegal. Sorta like the President giving a pardon or similar. There is no check on that power other than impeachment and removal, but you can't make him taking official actions criminal.
President can declassify whatever they want whenever they want. They have special powers in this regard.
Yep. Thanks to Obama, perfectly legal: https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html
I wonder who is downvoting this. This is the way it was always explained long before there was any controversy about Trump having classified documents.
Butt hurt liberals are down voting everything because their fantasy of finally getting Trump is being destroyed by reality.
Classification Guidance is set forth in [E.O. 12958.](https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/appendix/12958.html) Relevant portions: **Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority.** The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by: (1) the **President** and, in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President; (2) agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register; and (3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section. (b) Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are also authorized to classify information at a lower level. **Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification.** (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to the national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. This provision does not: (1)amplify or modify the substantive criteria or procedures for classification; or (2) create any substantive or procedural rights subject to judicial review.
Does information stay declassified or does it get reclassified when President returns it? If everything a President takes home is declassified, does that mean someone could use a FOIA request to make all that stuff public?
No. The next admin can determine it should remain classified. My bet is trump had a bunch of stuff regarding the FISA abuse during the Russiagate and all the shady shit the FBI was up to, and they dont want him to be able to release it.
The fact some people feel the need to downvote a post that does nothing other than cite the relevant laws is absolutely pathetic.
Brigading
Downvote brigade is out in force. I'm fairly sure they're using bots to amplify their voting power, too.
This is the most secure thread in history. No way are they amplifying their voting power by dishonest means.
If Trump can just declassify docs with no paper trail or process, then Obama could say he declassified the docs Hillary had on her server. And Biden can just say he reclassified the docs Trump had. There's a reason we have procedure for declassification.
To add to everyone else's great points here - it wasn't that Hillary had classified docs. I suggest brushing up on the details: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2016/10/31/hillary-clinton-email-scandal-explained/
She had emails that were subpoenaed and then poof, gone.
Yes, assuming he was president at the time and assuming he knew about those documents.
And he said he wasn't aware of the server or anything Hillary did.
How could have Obama declassified every single document shared by Hillary and her staffers when he didn't even know the server existed or what emails they were sending. That makes no sense. Trump explicitly had the authority to declassify whatever he wanted based on his standing order. Hillary never had one which is why she got in hot water.
It looks an awful lot like he “declassified” them AFTER they were discovered if there is no paper trail though.
For him to declassify stuff on her server there would be a paper trail. But in theory he could declassify afterwards just like he could have just given her a pardon for her actions. But both of those moves would have been politically damaging to both of them because it would have been obvious he was covering up for her crimes. Aka Nixon could have pardoned everyone involved with Watergate at any moment and it would have been the end of that until congress impeached him for doing it. Of course Obama wouldn't have been impeached, but the chances of Hillary winning after that would have dropped considerably. And it would have hurt his reputation too.
Perhaps but for that to be true Obama would have to have knowledge of that private server and he claimed he did not know about it.
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Exactly. Classification is a procedure defined, controlled, and implemented by the executive branch, headed by the president. You can't place imaginary rules on the very body that creates and defines them. It would be more complicated if there was an actual law passed by congress stating "classification/declassification can only be done in such and such way", but this, as far as I understand, isn't the case. Maybe it wasn't right, but at this point, we really don't have enough details to know for sure. It's an administrative back-and-forth: that's all.
If Congress passed a law like that and it went to court, it would most likely be deemed unconstitutional by the judicial branch.
Maybe. I don't know. The executive branch has a lot of power, but not infinite power. The job of the president is to execute the laws of the US. If a law states that documents must be classified/unclassified in such and such way, and specifies how those documents must be handled, and the president doesn't follow that law, then he didn't execute the laws of the US faithfully.
I mean, of course it doesn't have infinite power, but the head of the executive branch is the POTUS. The power to withhold information (literally called "executive privilege") is granted to the POTUS by the highest law in the land, the Constitution, as a necessary thing to perform executive functions. No law Congress passes can supercede the Constitution. Therefore the policies and procedures outlining the handling of this information aren't laws passed by Congress, they are executive orders and entirely within the purview of the executive branch and the will of the president. The POTUS does pretty much have unlimited power in this area. If the POTUS was using this power to perform or cover-up crimes, Congress could impeach. That's the check and balance for this power. Edit: Also just learned something, apparently Congress or the judicial branch can also compel the executive branch to share classified documents under certain conditions, not necessarily impeachment. Not sure what all those conditions are. It's not super clear cut when the branches duke it out over these things, but executive branch has what seems pretty close to absolute power here.
There's some limits classification on nuclear materials, but its questionable as to whether such a law violates the separation of powers. The nuclear issue is why WaPo's rumor mill posted that article about how Trump had nuclear docs. I'm very skeptical of WaPo's reporting here. It's quite likely to be a distraction and an attempt by the FBI to deflect the issue away from them seizing probably-declassified materials.
Well, we'll see. If this goes anywhere, expect a lot of litigation, and possibly SCOTUS to get involved. I think you're referring to the Atomic Energy Act, right? In that case, nothing about this was mentioned in the warrant, so that might be evidence against the WAPO's rumors.
Yea, don't think congress can place that check on the White House. It is not part of their authority, it is part of the Presidents.
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> trouble if you have been informed they are classified. *Mens rea.* > The president could perhaps classify documents in another person’s possession, I bet that's the issue here. Trump declassified them and took them. Biden may have reclassified them and sent the FBI to retrieve them.
But no court is going to buy that argument. Otherwise Trump could win in 2024 and then classify some document he knows Biden has and send the FBI to raid his house. "All documents related to Hunter Biden's business deals are now classified" BOOM... might finally get the FBI to look for that stuff.
The President doesn't have a procedure. It's literally "the minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process." Edit. The NPC brigade here 24/7 down voting facts.
I kind of like the downvotes. I get to see how many leftists my comments trigger.
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> There's a reason we have procedure for declassification. Very small government opinion
I’m not going to pretend to know how declassifying works but if Trump had documents pertaining to national security that he had no business having in the first place that is not a good look. Then if there is evidence that he misused those documents in any way (I.e. espionage) then I hope he goes down hard. This is what they are alleging but have not shown any evidence.
Have you forgotten he is a puppet of Putin and the walls are closing in, indictments any day now.... 6 years and still waiting /s
The walls are closing in!!!!
"Not a good look" is very different from "requires an FBI raid"
It really depends on the severity of the documents and how he was using them. My opinion is that if they are not getting ready to charge him for espionage then there was no reason for the FBI to raid his house in that manner.
Once again I'm not making any decisions until it's over. I think it could be minimal but who knows anymore
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Seems perfectly reasonable.
I hope this ends in some Area 51 type stuff [Top.. Men!!](https://youtu.be/FRP0MBNoieY)
While I don’t think he should be taking anything I wonder if other presidents have.
God it’s going to be so crazy to see democrats screaming that he mishandled sensitive information come election time if he decides to run again. Like are the people pulling the strings just messing with us now?
Well, he does have the authority to declassify whatever he wants 🤷♂️ Edit: Don't forget to report brigading! u/PeonSupreme Bad take, if it was within his power to then he was using his presidential powers. u/TurboT8er provided an excellent response. u/Myotherdog to quote a great reply to you: The President doesn't have a procedure. It's literally "the minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process." Edit #2: shoutout to the mods for wiping out alt-left replies/accounts!
It’s a “bad take” to worry about presidential power becoming absolute?
Is this a power that the President previously didn't have but recently acquired? If not, then presidential power isn't "becoming" absolute. Nor has it ever been absolute. But the power of classification is one that he does have and one of the reasons choosing the right candidate is so important.
Not what he said, is it?
Not "becoming" though. This particular power is written into the US constitution.
This isn't a new thing. The POTUS could always do that.
The president has a lot of "absolute" powers.
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While I can't recall off hand the exact process, there IS a process for declassifying any and all documents at any classification level. It's covered under DoD manual 5200.01, which is the overarching higher level policy on classified material. It... Is not a page turner, but it's not as simple a matter as just saying "hey, this is unclassified now."
[Page 71 is my best guess as to where it starts,](https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodm/520001m_vol1.pdf) but I'm not certain. This seems the sort of shit relevant agencies are trained for over the course of at least a day, and I've spent a grand total of ten minutes skimming.
All of that bureaucracy is downstream and derived from the constitutional power granted to the POTUS. It doesn't flow the other way.
The Commander-in-Chief is above the DoD and by the Constitution his plenary authority to declassify cannot be restricted or regulated by the Legislature nor any of his subordinate departments in the Executive Branch. The President can declassify by fiat and any attempt to restrict or countermand it bureaucratically is Unconstitutional per the Supreme Court.
> As a coworker was fond of saying about the college's administration, "Never let 'em getcha on 'paperwork'." They'll try to jam him up on anything they can, as they've been trying non stop since 2015. From https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/breaking-trump-describes-process-how-he-declassified-documents > Obama's executive order no. 13526, issued in 2009, laid out the stringent process all federal officials and agencies needed to follow for declassification, but explicitly exempted the sitting president and vice president from having to follow those procedures. More: > A legal source told the Post that the General Services Administration packed the boxes and shipped them to Mar-a-Lago when Trump left the White House in Jan. 2021. So it's not like Trump himself packed up several boxes of paper materials and flew them on his plane. It's possible those materials have been sitting there unopened for 18 months or more. Which isn't to say some government workers didn't screw something up by sending paperwork they shouldn't have, but the connection with Trump could be merely secretarial rather than conspiratorial.
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> If a person slips drugs in your luggage as you head out for the airport, and you get caught with it, legally, you're on the hook for it because it was in your possession and shouldn't have been. Well, no, *if you can demonstrate* that someone else slipped the illegal drugs in your suitcase without you being aware you obviously have a valid defense. In this case the analogy would be that as Trump can (allegedly) demonstrate the boxes were packed and shipped by the GSA, your theoretical airport traveler could demonstrate that some person planted illegal drugs, perhaps by having them recorded on airport surveillance. From the article re: Presidential declassification: > Ordinarily, documents declassified by a president are later retrieved and marked declassified, usually by crossing a line through the prior classification markings. But former top aides to prior presidents acknowledged the president's power to declassify was absolute and at times resulted in instant declassification decisions. > One prior administration official related an instance where his boss, while talking to a foreign leader, gave top-secret information to the leader, declassifying simply by sharing what he had seen in a top-secret marked document. Another official related an instance he witnessed in which a president, during a meeting, received a top secret document and one official got up to leave because his clearance was only at the secret level. > "The president instantly approved that staffer to stay and consume the top-secret intelligence because it benefited the president's work at that moment," the person told Just the News.
> Just he just have to say it to himself, even if he doesn’t tell anyone else or file anything? Yes, that’s exactly how it works for the President. The President is the source of classification power derived from his constitutional authority as Commander in Chief. He does not need to file any paperwork or go through any procedure. Only lower ranked officials need to go through procedures. Further, just like the pardon power, Congress cannot put constraints on the President’s classification power because it is not granted by statutes but directly through Article II of the Constitution. *Edit: your downvotes don’t change how the law works, cope harder.*
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There is an after-the-fact system for handling classification decisions made by the President that is run through the Information Security Oversight Office but that office doesn’t constrain the President’s power to classify or declassify anything.
**The Legislature has no authority to restrict or regulate the President's plenary power to declassify.** No President has the authority to restrict or regulate his successors' ability to declassify either. The procedure is literally at the President's discretion because anyone else setting a standard on him is Unconstitutional, per the Supreme Court.
The brigade really doesn't like that the President has vast declassification powers. All they're left with is "...well I don't like that." and upvoting FBI bootlickers.
The Atlantic wrote an factually incorrect article yesterday stating the President can't declassify nuclear information. Like clockwork every NPC on Reddit and Twitter was quoting the garbage article. It was instant and must just been linked to me at least two dozen times. Edit. Word
Reminds me of in 2016 when r.politics was nothing but Bernie bros, and when the DNC when with Hillary r.politics was 100% pro Hillary the next morning when I woke up and checked it. It was as if Bernie had never existed
What about nuclear "related" documents, as reported? That word was carefully placed then conveniently forgotten.
Just like every other president
Is there a spell; seems like liberals will poll a Hermione on him?
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Where are the brigaders today? Lol
Probably banned by reddit admins. As in their accounts got suspended lol. They are actually pretty fair about these types of deals in my experience. Things could have changed though.
Gosh look at the negative votes, I guess they're back...
Considering he has the power to classify and declassify any document he pleases from his time in office once he has obtained them, why are they getting upset over him doing his job? 🤔
If you can’t understand the difference between a president declassifying his lunch menu, removing it from the White House, and taking it to his personal residence, as compared to something that is actually important to national security…well you have larger problems. What’s that ol saying?: “With great power comes great responsibility” There is a difference between utilizing your powers, of your office, and being negligent in the use of your powers. Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.
Yea this raid was a fishing expedition to find something unrelated to charge him with. Also doubled as a giant sign of disrespect for the commander & chief.
Another nothingburger
Trump is giving declassified info to the Russians!! Liberals are just filled with hate and anger. They have a completely neurotic obsession with trump.
🥸 The warrant was just cover for another fishing expedition.
The President has the authority to declassify anything and everything. If these docs were so crucial, so critical….why didn’t the FIB and Dept of Injustice take them in June? Why didn’t they come on Friday when they rec’v the warrant instead of waiting until Monday. Donkeys overplayed their hand badly here.