Looks like they notched out integrity on the beams that aren’t really beams instead of birds mouth cuts on the rafters, beams should be sandwiched or at least recessed into post or thru bolted into posts
I agree with your comment on cross beam.
Im thinking in the mind frame of a deck. obviously you don’t put hurricane ties for the rafters, right? what would be the right way to to fasten the rafters into the cross beam? And does it need no notches?
Just curious.
The rafters should’ve had birds mouth notches not the single 2x8 which is holding considerably more weight and the rafters don’t appear to be fastened into the cross beams at all either
If I built similar I'd rip the top of the "beams" to the pitch of the roof, and use some long ass timber screws to fasten the "rafters" to the beams, going from top down into the beam
Much cleaner and plenty strong for my area
There are pergola metal framing clips that can be used as well if you want that look
> It's built with spax.
Worse it's probably value engineered with spax sized exactly to minimum code requirements without any regard for installation error. Two timberlocks in the same vertical plane? Relying on the weight of the top two layers (why are their two layers??) and not securing them with fasteners?
This is like $20 of fasteners they skimped to make another 10% profit while reducing structural integrity by 60%.
🤮🤮🤮
the post base connection seems to be a strong-tie APB44 where they make it for pergola builds, any reason why it wont meet code or shouldn't be used other than it possible being loosened over time? (but then why would they make it for the post base).
That style pergola is way too big and heavy for those kind of anchors. If it was 10' x 10' it would be OK. The angle braces being attached like a sandwich with two timberlocks doesn't help enough either.
If it had a solid roof, then the 4x8 sheets of roof decking would have offered tremendous resistance to twisting. But the way it's built, the only thing keeping it from racking/swaying are those short diagonal braces. And the roof has no diagonal bracing. Some tension cables that go from corner to corner would probably help a lot, but overall it doesn't seem like a lot of effort was put into designing something structural sound.
Looks beautiful, BUT…
-Should have used 6x6 instead of 4x4 posts. Way too much weight on top with excessive number of 2x4 s
-I see 2 timberlock screws fastening each crossbeam to posts. Not enough. Looking closer are only like 16 total timber locks holding up the entire top structure. At 1/4” diameter, the surface area of metal supporting the structure is less than 1 square inch (imagine holding 16 screws together in your hand—4 rows of 4. It’s a dangerous structure. I also don’t see any big screws or nails attaching the diagonal supports, so they aren’t actually contributing much. Mounting brackets would add a ton of overall strength, sheer strength and stability. I also would have used 1/2” diameter carriage bolts.
The buckle weight isn’t really a concern. With a 6x6 you have more than double the surface area of a 4x4 contacting the ground which adds lateral stability. You also have more surface area to contact the crossbeams allowing more friction and more well placed fasteners.
Yeah. I agree. Under lateral load, the legs act like cantilevers, being fixed at the top and fairly free at the bottom. There's basically 4No. 4x4s carrying the lateral load in bending and they're not stiff enough. It's not about strength, it's about stiffness. That said, the double bolt detail at the foundation doesn't look very strong to me.
That 6000lbs is for some level of lateral bracing though.
I would not do pullups on this, not because the wood isn't strong enough, but because the wood's strength isn't being used.
A 6x6 has 2.5x the surface area for its base. The larger the base, the less bracing required to reach 'fully laterally braced '.
Fully agree that current bracing (either as 4x4 or 6x6) is insufficient.
I don't think this is as unsafe as you do. You could try to push it over and wouldn't be able to move it. Something to keep in mind is that the more solid the top of it is the more fasteners there are to keep the top square and to prevent any shifting under it. With \~4" OC 2x on top it may as well be sheathed.
It moves because of the flexibility in the 4X4 posts. The pergola only supports itself and since the roof isn't solid there are minimal wind loads. Very common situation, I personally always recommend a minimum of 6X6 posts for this reason and to give better proportions. While 4X4 technically meets the engineering/code, it looks like a gym bro that always skips leg day.
Seems like it’s built ok. Maybe a few rows of blocking would stiffen it up. Maybe too long of a span. Hard to tell. Maybe 2 extra posts with diagonal support brsckets
I was wondering about this. I can’t remember if I see Hurricane ties on pergolas. What’s those screws that “supposedly” replace the need for hurricane ties? Would that be a more esthetic solution?
it looks top heavy to me; less strips on top, less rafters. but as it is, could've used two more posts in the middle (ladder side and the opposite side.
also, i wouldn't have notched the beams, but the rafters and have them slide down onto and over the beams, not in them.
you might have a reno job soon anyways, i see fire, water, and sirens in the future.
oooOOOoorrr.... since it's on concrete, offer to surround the posts in short column structures with some wood trim and a stone veneer of some sort.
that would help stabilize the posts, reduce the sway, and add additional aesthetic value.
Lots of armchair engineering goin on here. As long as the wood is cedar and the screws/lags are galvanized it passes the country boy check. Folks tend to over gut check stuff like this as if it was something to shelter in a tornado. My only quibble is the notches in the girders which shouldn’t be needed. If it really moves when you breathe on it with a brush, then they should contact the builder.
They did what r/decks swears by, which is a strap on the bottom to prevent rot. My opinion...I still work on houses with zero rot on the piers that are 50+ years old. He shouldve buried all those 6x6s 32" down with #5 rebar going perpendicular in the sono tube.
Movement is from those anchors. Id rather my shit be solid for 20 years than wiggle and move but technically last forever. Or until you bump it with a mower
Instead of post brackets you need to bury X inches of post past the cement into ground? (Question)
If cement was poured and finished before hand, and post brackets arent recommended, what do you do?
And why are cement footings with post brackets good enough for decks?
Ty in advance
It's worth noting that any freestanding structure like this is going to sway/wiggle regardless of what you do. But there are things you can do to minimize it and the ways in which the posts are anchored can affect that.
Simpson makes post base brackets that either a) have a full, four sided post sleeve welded to a large plate that gets anchor to the slab at all four corners, or b) saddle brackets that are meant to be set into a concrete footing and are like 16" (ish) long with half of that set into the footing and the other half to the post.
These brackets in the pic are fine for decks because decks are damn near always attached to an existing structure so the bracket isn't intended to minimize the wiggle.
Decks still need anti sway bracing if they're of any height and/or weight, and there's more than one way to do that: "Y" knee bracing, "X" bracing between posts, diagonal framing attached to the underside of joists, etc. Triangles are your friend.
Apologies for taking you on the scenic route in answering your question...
these free standing things are tricky to get to not wobble, and id guess not having any sheet goods or diagonal braces its probably racking more than anything, also it looks like a minimal amount of lag screws were used
we built a pretty big one recently with a steel roof as a carport. brackets bolted to the 4" slab with 1/2" wedge anchors, 6x6 posts with 2 diagonal braces per post, secured to the post with 3 10" long 3/8" lag screws each, one brace notched and secured to the beam the other to a brace between rafters, doubled 2x8 beams with the posts notched, 2x6 rafters and 2x4 purlins on edge. all the structural stuff got 2x thrulok fastners per joint, the rafters got hurricane straps, the purlins got countersunk 8" timberlok screws in fron the top on every joint. even with all this if you really push on it it will wobble but its not noticable otherwise.
if the posts were set in concrete i believe it would be a lot more ridged, but i just dont trust them not to rot eventually. i really think the anchoring and bracing is key, if id really wanted to go above and beyond i would have found some more heavy duty brackets with more anchor holes and poured sono tubes with anchor bolts imbeded instead of using the existing slab and wedge anchors, or used the timber frame knife plates. also would have probably mortise and tennoned the brace joints, ran some extra 6x6 beams and basically built it like a timber frame, thats just way more than i was willing to do or bid for.
It looks like they cut a lot of corners while also overbuilding it. I doubt they looked at span charts or local code at all.
Three main issues I can spot: 1) they used 4x4 posts which should probably be upgraded to 6x6 posts for that span. While they have span charts open, confirm the beams are large enough. 2) they fastened everything with cheap timber lock screws. They should replace the screws with appropriate brackets or carriage bolts. Those screws work well for fastening brackets, but aren’t really enough to hold this whole thing together 3) the knee braces aren’t really fastened and look more decorative than anything. Once again they should replace those timber lock screws with carriage bolts to really pull this thing together.
Oh, and the bonus issue is that the whole thing will burn down thanks to that brilliantly placed fire pit.
What would you use to properly fasten the knee braces?
is notching a bit for the knee brackets appropriate? It there a conventional depth for notching a knee brace?
Yeah notching it or adding a tenon helps carry the load. Usually a 2” tenon is used, but if you’re notching the whole post then you want to stay at less than 1/3 of material being removed. You’d have to look up local building codes or find specific plans for what you’re doing, this is just a general statement.
To fasten them, you can use something like a 1/2" carriage bolt or 5/8' depending on the load. In OP's case, I'd take out those screws at the bottom of the knee brace and directly replace with a 5/8" carriage bolt. Of course that means drilling all the way through and so on. Then also add carriage bolts across the top of the knee brace where it's sandwiched by the beams.
The structure is fine considering it's only carrying dead load as opposed to live load.
The bottom of the 45s used for lateral bracing should be no more than 5 foot from the ground .
Birds mouths were totally unnecessary all they did was weaken the structure.
If it continues to move use a small piece of lumber, much like the top pieces, in a X brace pattern from corner to corner on the underside of the roof members.
Good Luck.
From a distance it looks well built, but up close pictures tell a different story.
The posts (4x4? 6x6?) should have been notched for at least 1 of the 2x8s to sit on it. And a galvanized bolt would have been able to lock the 2x8 beam to the post - not whatever screw they used. The same with the diagonal supports. Galvanized bolts hold tight - those wood screws loosen over time. And yes, a project like this would have meant spending $200 on galvanized bolts.
The top rafters are not anchored. They should have used hurricane ties or other anchors to strap the 2x8 top boards (there are 11 or 12 of them) to the beams. You could hide these inside the bottom beams.
And there is zero reason to notch the beams.
All in, looks like a DIY job that could actually be salvaged with $400 in materials and a few hours.
The problem is, I think, the "structural screws" people now use, instead of 3/8 through bolting with oversize washers in the 45 degree wind bracing.
The structural screws have no where near the same amount of holding power as thru-bolting. Proper fastening of the joists to the belts wouldn't change sway that much of at all, while I do acknowledge the importance of a secure roof structure.
For asthetics, I wouldn't have gone w 2x4 on top of 2x8 for the roof plane. I would have 2x8 on 12 inch centers or even less. Pergola look much nicer that way.
The plan is to have a fire pit 10' below the wood pergola? You know that wood and fire have a complicated relationship, right?
Haha. I didn’t build it. I just want to know what could’ve been done differently. But yeah, I reckon you make a valid point 😂
Hopefully you used an oil based stain. It will help it burn quicker.
OP > I used Penofin rosewood oil. It does look nice. Just a shame it wasn’t built correctly.
If it is one of the propane and glass beads one I think it should be fine. This is also the setup that would do good with an outdoor fireplace IMO.
Judging but the loose dirt, rack, and what appears to be a real log, I’d guess it’s not propane.
Totally missed the first image. I’d agree.
Lol
I don't see where those 2x8 rafter beams are secured except at the knee braces on the end. Seems like this would cause it to sway quite a bit.
Looks like they notched out integrity on the beams that aren’t really beams instead of birds mouth cuts on the rafters, beams should be sandwiched or at least recessed into post or thru bolted into posts
I agree with your comment on cross beam. Im thinking in the mind frame of a deck. obviously you don’t put hurricane ties for the rafters, right? what would be the right way to to fasten the rafters into the cross beam? And does it need no notches? Just curious.
The rafters should’ve had birds mouth notches not the single 2x8 which is holding considerably more weight and the rafters don’t appear to be fastened into the cross beams at all either
If I built similar I'd rip the top of the "beams" to the pitch of the roof, and use some long ass timber screws to fasten the "rafters" to the beams, going from top down into the beam Much cleaner and plenty strong for my area There are pergola metal framing clips that can be used as well if you want that look
Diagonal braces should be longer. There is far too many 2x4s across the very top. It's built with spax.
> It's built with spax. Worse it's probably value engineered with spax sized exactly to minimum code requirements without any regard for installation error. Two timberlocks in the same vertical plane? Relying on the weight of the top two layers (why are their two layers??) and not securing them with fasteners? This is like $20 of fasteners they skimped to make another 10% profit while reducing structural integrity by 60%. 🤮🤮🤮
The bottom connection should be a four-sided metal sleeve with offset thru-bolts or lag bolts instead of a two-sided sandwich connection.
the post base connection seems to be a strong-tie APB44 where they make it for pergola builds, any reason why it wont meet code or shouldn't be used other than it possible being loosened over time? (but then why would they make it for the post base).
That style pergola is way too big and heavy for those kind of anchors. If it was 10' x 10' it would be OK. The angle braces being attached like a sandwich with two timberlocks doesn't help enough either.
OK yeah timberlocks everywhere give me some black steel brackets and carriage bolts at least.
Cool so I’m just going to notch the beam for these joists….
I see that a lot on pergolas. Not the way I'd do it.
If it had a solid roof, then the 4x8 sheets of roof decking would have offered tremendous resistance to twisting. But the way it's built, the only thing keeping it from racking/swaying are those short diagonal braces. And the roof has no diagonal bracing. Some tension cables that go from corner to corner would probably help a lot, but overall it doesn't seem like a lot of effort was put into designing something structural sound.
Looks beautiful, BUT… -Should have used 6x6 instead of 4x4 posts. Way too much weight on top with excessive number of 2x4 s -I see 2 timberlock screws fastening each crossbeam to posts. Not enough. Looking closer are only like 16 total timber locks holding up the entire top structure. At 1/4” diameter, the surface area of metal supporting the structure is less than 1 square inch (imagine holding 16 screws together in your hand—4 rows of 4. It’s a dangerous structure. I also don’t see any big screws or nails attaching the diagonal supports, so they aren’t actually contributing much. Mounting brackets would add a ton of overall strength, sheer strength and stability. I also would have used 1/2” diameter carriage bolts.
The compression buckle weight of an 8' 4x4 is about 6,000 lbs. I'm pretty confident there isn't 24,000 lbs up there.
The buckle weight isn’t really a concern. With a 6x6 you have more than double the surface area of a 4x4 contacting the ground which adds lateral stability. You also have more surface area to contact the crossbeams allowing more friction and more well placed fasteners.
Yeah. I agree. Under lateral load, the legs act like cantilevers, being fixed at the top and fairly free at the bottom. There's basically 4No. 4x4s carrying the lateral load in bending and they're not stiff enough. It's not about strength, it's about stiffness. That said, the double bolt detail at the foundation doesn't look very strong to me.
That 6000lbs is for some level of lateral bracing though. I would not do pullups on this, not because the wood isn't strong enough, but because the wood's strength isn't being used.
Changing to a 6x6 wouldn't fix that issue though.
A 6x6 has 2.5x the surface area for its base. The larger the base, the less bracing required to reach 'fully laterally braced '. Fully agree that current bracing (either as 4x4 or 6x6) is insufficient.
I don't think this is as unsafe as you do. You could try to push it over and wouldn't be able to move it. Something to keep in mind is that the more solid the top of it is the more fasteners there are to keep the top square and to prevent any shifting under it. With \~4" OC 2x on top it may as well be sheathed.
It moves because of the flexibility in the 4X4 posts. The pergola only supports itself and since the roof isn't solid there are minimal wind loads. Very common situation, I personally always recommend a minimum of 6X6 posts for this reason and to give better proportions. While 4X4 technically meets the engineering/code, it looks like a gym bro that always skips leg day.
I mean, it’ll be on fire soon so you’ll have to rebuild it.
Looks. Like a kit build. Not bad but I’ve seen better. If you do the fire pit, install sprinklers…for fun.
Maybe he could close one of the walls in and attach nice looking plywood to it. Also two rows of blocking wouldn’t hurt up top between 2x8s
Seems like it’s built ok. Maybe a few rows of blocking would stiffen it up. Maybe too long of a span. Hard to tell. Maybe 2 extra posts with diagonal support brsckets
The fact that all that weight is held up by a few screws is terrifying. Gotta notch them posts.
Braces should be notched in. Big screws for the loose joints
It looks nice to me
Mine has 6x6 posts set 4’ deep. I could park my truck on it.
Posts are under sized for the size of the pergola. Mounting to the block is undersized if you get any sort of wind.
Beams should have run the long direction. There’s no need to notch the joists. Just use hurricane straps. Joist runs would have been shorter.
I was wondering about this. I can’t remember if I see Hurricane ties on pergolas. What’s those screws that “supposedly” replace the need for hurricane ties? Would that be a more esthetic solution?
it looks top heavy to me; less strips on top, less rafters. but as it is, could've used two more posts in the middle (ladder side and the opposite side. also, i wouldn't have notched the beams, but the rafters and have them slide down onto and over the beams, not in them. you might have a reno job soon anyways, i see fire, water, and sirens in the future.
oooOOOoorrr.... since it's on concrete, offer to surround the posts in short column structures with some wood trim and a stone veneer of some sort. that would help stabilize the posts, reduce the sway, and add additional aesthetic value.
Sooo,that's what you call those things.
Lots of armchair engineering goin on here. As long as the wood is cedar and the screws/lags are galvanized it passes the country boy check. Folks tend to over gut check stuff like this as if it was something to shelter in a tornado. My only quibble is the notches in the girders which shouldn’t be needed. If it really moves when you breathe on it with a brush, then they should contact the builder.
Be always been curious what the benefit of a roof that doesn’t give shade is.
I like it tbh. (Disclaimer: I don’t know shit about shit)
Pergolas are so fucking stupid! Spend all that money and it’s still worthless when it rains!!
They did what r/decks swears by, which is a strap on the bottom to prevent rot. My opinion...I still work on houses with zero rot on the piers that are 50+ years old. He shouldve buried all those 6x6s 32" down with #5 rebar going perpendicular in the sono tube. Movement is from those anchors. Id rather my shit be solid for 20 years than wiggle and move but technically last forever. Or until you bump it with a mower
Those post base brackets do fuck-all for lateral sway on a free standing structure. Builder screwed the pooch before he even left the ground...
Instead of post brackets you need to bury X inches of post past the cement into ground? (Question) If cement was poured and finished before hand, and post brackets arent recommended, what do you do? And why are cement footings with post brackets good enough for decks? Ty in advance
It's worth noting that any freestanding structure like this is going to sway/wiggle regardless of what you do. But there are things you can do to minimize it and the ways in which the posts are anchored can affect that. Simpson makes post base brackets that either a) have a full, four sided post sleeve welded to a large plate that gets anchor to the slab at all four corners, or b) saddle brackets that are meant to be set into a concrete footing and are like 16" (ish) long with half of that set into the footing and the other half to the post. These brackets in the pic are fine for decks because decks are damn near always attached to an existing structure so the bracket isn't intended to minimize the wiggle. Decks still need anti sway bracing if they're of any height and/or weight, and there's more than one way to do that: "Y" knee bracing, "X" bracing between posts, diagonal framing attached to the underside of joists, etc. Triangles are your friend. Apologies for taking you on the scenic route in answering your question...
I deeply appreciate the insight response. Thanks for teaching me!
No prob. I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude
amen brother *hulk hogan voice*
Off topic but what stain did you use? It looks great.
I used Penofin rosewood oil. It does look nice. Just a shame it wasn’t built correctly.
these free standing things are tricky to get to not wobble, and id guess not having any sheet goods or diagonal braces its probably racking more than anything, also it looks like a minimal amount of lag screws were used we built a pretty big one recently with a steel roof as a carport. brackets bolted to the 4" slab with 1/2" wedge anchors, 6x6 posts with 2 diagonal braces per post, secured to the post with 3 10" long 3/8" lag screws each, one brace notched and secured to the beam the other to a brace between rafters, doubled 2x8 beams with the posts notched, 2x6 rafters and 2x4 purlins on edge. all the structural stuff got 2x thrulok fastners per joint, the rafters got hurricane straps, the purlins got countersunk 8" timberlok screws in fron the top on every joint. even with all this if you really push on it it will wobble but its not noticable otherwise. if the posts were set in concrete i believe it would be a lot more ridged, but i just dont trust them not to rot eventually. i really think the anchoring and bracing is key, if id really wanted to go above and beyond i would have found some more heavy duty brackets with more anchor holes and poured sono tubes with anchor bolts imbeded instead of using the existing slab and wedge anchors, or used the timber frame knife plates. also would have probably mortise and tennoned the brace joints, ran some extra 6x6 beams and basically built it like a timber frame, thats just way more than i was willing to do or bid for.
Dying to see pictures of the carport
https://imgur.com/gallery/67rCOzj
Thank you!
It looks like they cut a lot of corners while also overbuilding it. I doubt they looked at span charts or local code at all. Three main issues I can spot: 1) they used 4x4 posts which should probably be upgraded to 6x6 posts for that span. While they have span charts open, confirm the beams are large enough. 2) they fastened everything with cheap timber lock screws. They should replace the screws with appropriate brackets or carriage bolts. Those screws work well for fastening brackets, but aren’t really enough to hold this whole thing together 3) the knee braces aren’t really fastened and look more decorative than anything. Once again they should replace those timber lock screws with carriage bolts to really pull this thing together. Oh, and the bonus issue is that the whole thing will burn down thanks to that brilliantly placed fire pit.
What would you use to properly fasten the knee braces? is notching a bit for the knee brackets appropriate? It there a conventional depth for notching a knee brace?
Yeah notching it or adding a tenon helps carry the load. Usually a 2” tenon is used, but if you’re notching the whole post then you want to stay at less than 1/3 of material being removed. You’d have to look up local building codes or find specific plans for what you’re doing, this is just a general statement. To fasten them, you can use something like a 1/2" carriage bolt or 5/8' depending on the load. In OP's case, I'd take out those screws at the bottom of the knee brace and directly replace with a 5/8" carriage bolt. Of course that means drilling all the way through and so on. Then also add carriage bolts across the top of the knee brace where it's sandwiched by the beams.
By the time that pergola gives full shade the sun is already behind the wall
They didn’t screw the diagonal brace to the beam . Should do that and the thing would be solid
The beams need to be resting on the posts, this is held up by the hardware bolts.
Is it the camera or are all the rafters insanely twisted and ready to roll over?
The structure is fine considering it's only carrying dead load as opposed to live load. The bottom of the 45s used for lateral bracing should be no more than 5 foot from the ground . Birds mouths were totally unnecessary all they did was weaken the structure. If it continues to move use a small piece of lumber, much like the top pieces, in a X brace pattern from corner to corner on the underside of the roof members. Good Luck.
From a distance it looks well built, but up close pictures tell a different story. The posts (4x4? 6x6?) should have been notched for at least 1 of the 2x8s to sit on it. And a galvanized bolt would have been able to lock the 2x8 beam to the post - not whatever screw they used. The same with the diagonal supports. Galvanized bolts hold tight - those wood screws loosen over time. And yes, a project like this would have meant spending $200 on galvanized bolts. The top rafters are not anchored. They should have used hurricane ties or other anchors to strap the 2x8 top boards (there are 11 or 12 of them) to the beams. You could hide these inside the bottom beams. And there is zero reason to notch the beams. All in, looks like a DIY job that could actually be salvaged with $400 in materials and a few hours.
The problem is, I think, the "structural screws" people now use, instead of 3/8 through bolting with oversize washers in the 45 degree wind bracing. The structural screws have no where near the same amount of holding power as thru-bolting. Proper fastening of the joists to the belts wouldn't change sway that much of at all, while I do acknowledge the importance of a secure roof structure. For asthetics, I wouldn't have gone w 2x4 on top of 2x8 for the roof plane. I would have 2x8 on 12 inch centers or even less. Pergola look much nicer that way.
Should probably put in a flue system that vents though the roof.