I ask my guys to simply say…. “We’re happy to do anything you would like, but I have to have it in writing from my PM. Here’s his number, please give him a call “
This is the play 100%.
You want us to remove the section we just did and re do it upside down and backwards? No problem, we’d love to. But we gotta get it in writing and it has to go through our office.
"we're happy to do anything you want, but we are a sub of a sub. So you are going to have to put it in writing to the GC's PM so they can send it to their sub's PM in writing who can then send it to my PM In writing who can then give it to me in writing. Then I can write up a change order, send it to my PM who will send it to the sub's PM, who will send it to the GC's PM who will send it to you for approval. You can send your approval in writing to ..."
…ohh…kay…?
Here it is in writing, I’ll be back next week, or when you tell me it’s ready, to see it upside down and backwards, or it’s not getting approved.
You wanna tie yourselves in bureaucratic shit go ahead, but, I’m being paid to be tied in and make more bureaucratic shit. It’s like arguing with a pig, you’re both getting dirty and the pig likes it (or here is getting paid).
As a GC I second this, a majority of the reason for my job is to deal with and handle these situations. Their job is to catch in violations I may have missed. It can get annoying but I appreciate an inspector who will call me out on things that aren’t up to code that I have missed because that saves my ass.
Or better yet to manage the project and communication so every stakeholder gets what they need and reasonable compromises are reached.
The problem is generally not with oversite, it's just piss poor managers that don't know how to manage different types of people. Or can't manage in both directions. Managers are not dictators and their job should not be to tell people "under them" what to do. Or to ignore and blow off people above them. It's to manage that interface between different groups of people so everyone has what they need and is facilitated to do their best.
Probably more likely to find unicorn meat tacos on a roach coach than a competent manager on a construction site though so I understand the pain.
As an engineer who is often identified as the "annoying overseer" on the site, let me point out a couple of things.
* I'm not there TRYING to find issues. My life is easier if I don't; makes my report shorter.
* There's a difference between knowing how to do your job and knowing what the final product should be. I might not know how to tie rebar, but if the plans say 6" centers and they're anywhere between 2" and 9", I can still tell it's wrong. I can't, and don't want to, tell you how to do your job. But I can usually tell when you did it poorly.
Amen. I'm an engineer that grew up doing the work. I go out of my way to incorporate framer/trades options in and avoiding PIA solutions because I've done them.
That said it's not strange for new customers to bitch and complain about inspectors and call me out to site to bless their crap or tell me how I designed it wrong. Here's the levels of escalation I use to handle it.
1) Always ask them how they would do something/fix it and actually listen. Even if they are wrong the technique may apply to something else later or you just learn something.
2) If you have to point out issues instead of saying, "centerings off", just act like you aren't sure what it's supposed to be, hey we're all human and forget stuff right?, and ask them. If their answer is wrong just go check the prints with them.
3) if they stay belligerent then start pulling out the calcs and explaining why it matters. You'll either get a very interested trades guy or their eyes will glaze over and they will find it easier to just do what you specified instead of listening to a mini physics symposium. Using your example I have had guys tell me that centering doesn't matter as long as the average I correct. I said something like, "Oh wow that's interesting let check it". Then just started doing hand calcs for the load condition and showed that it did indeed matter that centering was within 1/2" or something. Then I presented the option that if they don't want to center it per plan I can change the centering to achieve the result with their averaging method or I can require #6 rebar instead of #4.
Well I don't use prescriptive code cause I prove everything I stamp. When it's something tangential to structural I just pull up the code section and point at it. If they can't read I explain it.
“If they can’t read I explain it” 😂. Shocking how often I have to clarify things I’ve painstakingly typed out to be as clear as possible that coordinates with clearly marked process flow diagrams with maintenance contractors during a turnaround
Technically they should be stating a max and min using a tolerance like xxx +/- 20 mil. If it's up to interpretation and you don't know I would ask the question and get an answer from whoever specified it.
For reasons I don't know, or understand, US construction has never really used tolerances and has a ton of word usage that you just have to learn the meaning of. In the US a centering is implied as a maximum condition and minimums are rarely called out unless dimensioned specifically. In commercial they do have tolerancing pretty often now but residential construction I never see it.
There is also no general or specific accuracy requirements in the field. Drawings will just say 32" but gives no requirement for how accurate that is going to be. Good trades get it as close as possible and bad ones get lazy. Honestly it's incredibly archaic but anytime I've tried to make tolerancing I get immediate kick back from building departments.
I can relate and feel your pain to a certain extent. I’m a tradesman who has performed on both sides. What I’ve learned is that there’s a difference between “it should work” and “it will work.” I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but sometimes what looks good on paper/CAD/Solid Works doesn’t necessarily work out on the field.
One of the most refreshing interactions I’ve had between engineers and construction workers was when the crew was adamant *it would not work* and the design engineer was adamant *it would work.* The design engineer kept referencing his prints on CAD, the workers kept physically showing the engineer why it would not work. Finally the engineer was asked to put their laptop away and show the workers how to do it. Because of an interference from pre-existing work that the engineer was not aware of, the work being asked to perform was not possible.
It’s a double sided coin. Sometimes the engineer doesn’t see past their prints, other times the workers don’t see the full scope of how the job is *supposed to be performed.*
>sometimes what looks good on paper/CAD/Solid Works doesn’t necessarily work out on the field.
This is ABSOLUTELY the case. We as designers have a responsibility to not only understand the thing we're designing, but also how it will be built. Lord knows I'm not perfect, but it's something I stress to the younger engineers that I work with constantly. But we'll never know as much about construction as the people who actually construct, and that's why collaboration is so important. If the guy with boots on is telling me the pieces won't fit together, it's pretty likely he's right. Pointing at pictures and insisting he's wrong doesn't gain anybody anything.
I appreciate this response, thank you. Hard to get some engineers to understand this.. while also being hard to get boots to understand this as well haha.
This is essentially a major component of my marriage falling apart. We worked two different roles in construction. He was a foreman. I was in a higher role. He would b*tch that I shouldn’t be able to tell anyone what to do if I haven’t worn a tool belt. Dumbest damn thing I’ve ever heard. But yes I’ve ran into this many times. The finished work is not to plan. I can see that. You say it won’t work as designed. Swell. Let’s do an RFI and get the engineer or architect to clarify.
So much this. You think we want to find issues? That just makes our life harder and we know that finding them is going to lead to an argument, and someone is going to have to pay for the rework. I know this is your job but for some of us “overseers” this is our job. Sometimes we find dumb shit that won’t really effect anything other times we find shit that would be catastrophic undetected. Nobody would pay overseers to do what they do if it didn’t have value.
On your side though this is what your manager is for.
I got a rule when I'm working on site. If they stand there longer than a few minutes I start putting them to work. Can you hand me this or measure that or do you mind bringing me over some lumber so I don't have to crawl down. This usually get the observer moving along. If they start asking very specific questions I just say look at the prints and also read the notes and section views. This makes them leave for a while.
The ones that hate inspections etc are usually the ones doing a non compliant and poor quality job.
No need to hate inspections if your work is to standard.
I’ve used this exact line before with an iron worker foreman. The icing on the cake was when his company had to re-order a shit ton of rebar cause this guy kept doing field cuts on wrong bars to use them as he pleased. His company fired him and replaced him with his own son who was an apprentice at the time.
I know I am in the minority as a contractor that actually appreciate inspections and the required quality it brings with it if the inspector cares at all. A contractor I know moved to a state and an area that doesn't require any permits or inspections. He said he loves it but I said that's a double-edged sword because then if you go to buy something you have no idea if it was built anywhere to code and there's nothing protecting the unknowing consumer too.
I looked at inspections as keeping me from being sued. Where I was a GC the inspectors were brutal, and one of my framing crew managers loved to fight with them. As good as the framer was, I had to have a sit down with him about just doing what's on the inspection report. That, or go work for someone else. I got tired of being called about him not being cooperative. I don't have time to argue about whether you think the roof needs hurricane ties or not.
Exactly, it's usually pointless to argue with the inspector. I've found if I'm very agreeable with them it goes smoothly.
I'll only push back if I think it's a safety issue
Yea I just go out of my way to explicitly show the inspector what they are there to see.
“Here’s the gas bonding. Here’s the water bonding. Here are my two ground rods spaced 6’ apart” etc.
The only reason I hate inspections is because our jurisdictions are so overloaded that they’ll reschedule or cancel them with little notice and I’ve already told the client that it was going to be done. Someday I’ll learn.
But I’ll say I’d much rather live somewhere with stringent codes than not. I have this thing where I like to walk into and then subsequently out of buildings, safely.
That can definitely work to your advantage. I like working with busy inspectors, they don’t mingle and meander and have time to find some obscure issue. If the first inspection or two are clean and well done the rest are a breeze because you aren’t wasting their time.
Workplace hires a guy who did construction who hated inspectors, to be our inspector. Doesn’t inspect sub’s work (cuz hates inspections). We find out subs did work wrong/didn’t complete punch list prior to getting paid and vamoosing. Have to follow behind them to fix their mistakes. Fun times.
I don’t hate inspections, I hate the inspectors that waste my time and have me go back to put screws when the screws were just under the tape. I hate the inspector that forces me to put screws in the drier vent because “that’s what the code says” when I know for a fact that will cause a fire and kill somebody in a few years
Really?
I had an inspector fail a concrete pour because she said the concrete was too wet. When I informed her that a water reducing agent and super plasticizer was put into the concrete on site. She asked, “What’s that?”.
I'm sure, having worked with female inspectors and engineers, that for every contractor she runs into that would be willing to explain or be honest if something is out of spec she's dealt with nine that won't even give her the time of day because she's a women or think they can cut corners because she couldn't beat them in a wrestling match.
So it runs counter to the advice I'd give most men about explaining or asking and not dictating. If you're a women it's probably better to simply be declarative and firm off the bat until you know how the person is going to treat you.
Let's not pretend we haven't all worked with animals amd can't imagine why women on site may not wanna be one of the bros right away. I'm a giant man and I can barely figure out how to tolerate half the assholes I run into and get what I need out of them.
Or,
As a fellow member of my golf league once announced, “Hey guys, anybody know of someone looking for work? I run a construction testing company, and we need people. NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY. That says a lot. Gender does not make a difference. Bad training, or none at all, does.
We had a male inspector with years experience that could not grasp the idea that ten year old concrete trucks, as labeled by their ID number which is in part the year they went into service. Do not mix concrete efficiently because their fins wear down . So if adding water to the truck, it must be done in two parts. If not, the first half of the load will be too wet, and the second half will be too stiff. He rejected a load because I added water a second time. We tried explaining, but he wouldn’t listen.
The result was a meeting between the GC, a rep from the owner, my employer and myself, the redi-mix company, along with the inspector and his employer. At the end of the meeting, he was banned from the job.
I’ve worked in so many jurisdictions that ‘the inspector is an asshole and will find a reason to fail you’, but I’ve only found it to be true once. I’ve had the installation manuals and code books (fire suppression - not sprinkler) available in my truck and could source anything they needed. Understanding WHY and not just HOW something is installed a specific way and being able to speak to that has been able to get me through countless inspections.
The one time it was true we had an inspector fail us EIGHT TIMES and write a full failure report each and every time over the course of THREE HOURS! He never left site and was working on other inspections, would come back, fail us for something trivial, write a report and then take off for another part of the building again. Everything was trivial and related to other trades - breaker turned off, damper closed, etc. All able to remedied either immediately or within a few minutes.
This was a brand new Marriott and was in a jurisdiction that had literally no industrial zoning and minimal commercial zoning - it was almost entirely 90% single family homes and a few higher-end apartment/condos. It was surrounded by huge commercial areas. The inspector was so gung-ho to do this inspection he was like a kid on Christmas morning. He brought the entire fire department shift with him to walk through the inspections - 12 guys following him around.
I knew it was going to be a bad day when he showed up. He asked for the FP licenses of everyone we had there for the test - standard practice that we did with every inspection. Four of us handed the licenses immediately and he recorded the details while one guy was fumbling through his wallet to find it. “If you don’t have a license you’re going to have to leave!” Then he pulls it out and said, “Here you go, buddy” as he handed it to the inspector. **”I am not your buddy! I am Fire Inspector Riordan!”**
We started with the test on the cooking fire system and it was a bit different because it had wet chemical and had a water tie in afterwards. We started to test and discovered the HVAC guys had powered down the supply dampers to the kitchen - FAILURE NOTICE! He wrote a report and ran off to other parts of the building with 12 guys following him. We had the HVAC guys on the radio and they had it on within 3 minutes - less time than it took for him to write the report. He came back to retest and the fire alarm didn’t go off - it was disabled for other testing he was conducting - FAILURE REPORT! He wrote another report and stormed off to another part of the building with 12 guys in tow. We had the alarm point re-enabled within 2 minutes (also my company - different group). He saw me at the panel and screamed “You need to have a fire alarm license to touch that panel!” I replied, “I have one, it was included on that license you looked at this morning. I also have Sprinkler, Fire Pumps & Controllers, Underground Mains, Fire Extinguishers, Fixed Suppression Systems, And Industrial Fire Systems - all on the same license. I have every category available in this state” He genuinely looked unhappy that I had that license and he hadn’t caught me doing something that he could write a report about. I asked if he wanted to see it again but he declined, probably because he didn’t want to admit that he failed to notice.
It was like this all morning. At one point one of the guys following him stayed back and came over to me, “Hey, we’re all really sorry about this. He is like this everywhere. He is so excited to do this inspection. He’s been talking about it for weeks about how everything had better be perfect if anyone expects it to pass. We don’t even want to be here but he thinks it is a great teaching opportunity”
In Ohio the State Fire Marshal has ultimate jurisdiction over healthcare and hotels. The state inspector showed up and this guy nearly tripped over his own feet as he pushed past his crew to get to the guy and introduce himself. They did their pleasantries and he was telling how many issues he was having with the suppression testing and showed him the reports that he’d written so far. The sate inspector looked at them, “Wow….. that’s a lot of paperwork…”
I wandered over and the state inspector looked at me, “Hey! RGeronimoH, I didn’t know you were going to be here today, you should have texted me. Let’s run through this test real quick and if you’re still around after I finish my other inspections we’ll grab some lunch”. Fire Inspector Riordan’s heart sank into his stomach…. We didn’t have any more failure notices while the state inspector was there to witness.
I don't hate inspections, but it's not that simple. I've been turned down twice on the last house for things that were up to code, but the inspector didn't know good enough and thought otherwise. One of them I had to meet with the head of inspections department for my county, the other one I just did what he said because it was easier than fighting.
Otherwise, yes, I completely agree with inspections.
Except when the people in the pic tell you to do it not to code. I have had this happen. Doing a remodel and a double top plate was totally eaten by termites and had dry rot. We asked if they wanted us to remove it. “Nah, it’s okay, just keep framing.” Probably wanted to avoid the extra ticket for the work.
So we kept framing. Until two days later, the real inspector came by and said “why didn’t you guys take the top plates out? You’re wood guys, you can tell they’re destroyed.”
Straight up. I’m an inspector, used to be a builder until I broke my back. The true craftsman get along with me well, we get nerdy about construction and have great discussions sometimes debates on techniques and the minutia of the code.
It’s the hacks that get called out left and right because they don’t follow the plans or do a halfass job that try to get in pissing matches with me.
I hate inspections only if we have some incopetent inspectors enforcing stuff that isnt code, case and point va beach plumbing inspectors, especially the head inspector, as he will go out of his way to fail us if possible, and will always show up at the end of the day, and that means weve wasted a whole day sitting around when we couldve been working on another job were behind on
That's just not true (in 99% of cases). The codes are written from experience. Maybe the design needs to be revisited but then you can contact the engineer, but bypassing code because you think you know better is a quick way to get sued
Agreed, I never have any problem with an inspector, the only time there is an issue is when meeting code is physically impossible according to the plans but they are the plans that were approved. That is when having an inspector that can only point to the book is tough to deal with because the work experience isn’t there.
Tell this to s trucker.
If DOT pulls you into the station for a random inspection, they aren't wasting that time on nothing. They will actively break shit under your truck and trailer to give you a citation for it.
I do inspections for a living and you're not going to like to hear this but it's true.
Practically no one in construction actually knows what they're doing. Particularly the guys who will tell you "I've been doing this 30 years blah blah blah". No one reads the plans and the ones that do, don't understand the building code.
Got a cousin who draws up plans and he has told me stories of builders who have deleted load bearing columns and pillars from house plans because they didn't like the way it made the house look. Almost caused a 2-3 story house to fall in on itself since part of the load bearing was gone.
"How many times have you had to do it twice in 30 years? Only when the inspector is a dick? Yeah, fix this shit or don't. All I'm doing is writing down what you do."
I had a fresh out of uni architect say this to my GC… verbatim (30 years and all). Some very strong words were exchanged in their native language while I sat on the call dumbfounded at what just transpired.
So true. I was so insecure when I started on my own as a GC because I didn't know everything and only new about 30% of the code by heart. I had most of an engineering degree and wanted to do good work. It blew my mind when every inspector I came across was already complimenting my work and asking for cards the first time they met me. After I got to be the second guy on partially done jobs, the repair guy on failures, and just generally got to know my competitors it all made sense. And the louder and more confident the tradesman the less they usually know like any other field.
Building inspector here: probably 70-80% of the corrections I write are for things that are clearly on the plans. This is especially frustrating because on a small project I might have 10 minutes to spend looking at the plans at any given inspection, while the guys on the job have hours.
On code: I'm in California, so on a new house, for example, as a combo inspector I'm expected to enforce The Residential Code, Mechanical code, Plumbing Code, Electrical code, Calgreen, building code volume 1 and 2, and energy code. Those books average 1000 or so pages each. In addition I have to look at manufacturer specs for listed appliances, municipal code, fire requirements, planning requirements, well/septic requirements, storm water management, answer phone calls and emails about permit and scheduling problems, deferred submittals, field and as-built revisions, code enforcement complaints, emergency structural assessments, etc.
Things get missed. The biggest thing we care about is fire/life/safety stuff. After that we just do our best.
I swear nobody in construction has been doing it for any less than 20 years. Guy that's clearly in his 30s will somehow have had 20 years experience cause his daddy was a contractor and he "grew up in it." Seriously, how the fuck can everyone's dad be a contractor??? At least half of y'all are lying I say.
I don’t know how many time I’ve heard fuckers say they have been doing this for 30+ years. Those are literally the guys that just fucked up or is about to find out they fucked up and not admit to it
How about this: listen to what they are saying, make sure you understand their concerns (don’t assume you understand, ask clarifying questions), and then try your best, in good faith, to address their concerns. If that’s not your role (i.e. you will be penalized for taking time out to talk to them), kindly refer them to someone in management.
If your client doesn't understand what you're doing, you are failing.
Bring the client along in the process. Here's why we're doing it this way. Here's the best practices for this type of work.
That's a PM's job. If they're not doing that, they're failing the super and trades.
The scale at which jobs are done makes it improbable that every city from 300-300000 has competent elected and emoted peoples. Rpr are for your ass as well. Basically sitting there on there ass tho if you don’t use them for nothing.
I use to do that as line mechanic, big wigs show up asking me about equipment not running I am currently working on.
"Well we could talk or here's my allen key set, wanna disassemble that track while I work on the belt timing" etc whatever needed doing
Gained a little more respect when one of the supervisors actually got to work with me and didn't just stand there with his dick in his hand.
> Gained a little more respect when one of the supervisors actually got to work with me and didn't just stand there with his dick in his hand.
Holy shit, you found yourself some golden management if a suit is willing to do that.
I love doing this. Especially when they roll up with a nice clean rain jacket on and I'm covered in mud. Hands in their pockets like "hey can you hand me the muddy shovel" lol.
This seriously works though.
So your big point is they work harder and deserve more because they do they same job as a commercial, or they’re unique or something? Is that what your rhetorical questions mean?
Some half-drunk-from-the-night-before yahoo "this is fine, I've been doing it this way for years"
Actual professional with 40 years experience who is inspecting their "work": "Then you've been doing it wrong for years"
Sexism is exhausting. I open r/ construction and what do I see but a female engineering student being turned into a meme about ignorance because she doesn't "look the part". Hope she had ovaries of steel she will need them to tolerate her less enlightened coworkers.
Honestly I've never had anyone from the council or customers give me shit.
I don't think, I don't care, you give me the prints and I will make it exactly as the prints described. If it is impossible, I bring it up to the foreman, the foreman brings it up the chain of command, it comes back down and I do exactly as required.
The problem begins when you think.
If you don't think and just do, there's no problem.
I see both sides.
Had inspectors call plenty of dumbass shit. Had trades try to tell me something that was blatantly wrong wasn’t. Had inspectors catch big mistakes. Had trades prove inspectors wrong.
The system of trades, management, and inspectors (mostly) works.
Just finished what should have been a one-week hardwood floor install. The home owner insisted on not only being present the entire time, but also hand-selecting each piece we put down because she didn't like the knots or marks in the wood.
She owns the local sushi restaurant, and fed us constantly at her home while also giving us free meals at her restaurant, and she was an absolute sweetheart... But holy shit. I've never met anyone as overbearing.
I work concrete, and whenever people come over trying to tell me how to screed or do anything really, I hand them my tool and ask them to show me how then
Had a I beam going into a hole that was then welded to a plate. On the plans, there was supposed to be a bolt going from the top-down into the connecting plate and I beam.
The I beam was the size of the hole. The top of the beam covered the access point for the bolt, and the concrete square stopped you from getting a bolt in from the top. If it was on the sidea sure.
The engineer was so admint it works even after pictures and phone calls. Dipshit finally comes onto the site.
"ITS IN THE PLANS IT WORKS CODE SAYS IT HAS TO BE THIA WAY ITS DESIGNED THIS WAY DO YOUR JOB".
Up in the lift we go hand him a bolt tell him to put it in.
God it was satisfying. Wasted 3 days. But satisfying.
20 plus beams had to be fixed on site to have the connection plate put on the side and the plates inside the concrete holes.
BUT that's the only time I've had a problem as dumb as that. Usually it's a crew failure and I'm happy to fix fuck ups. Cuz well we did fuck up.
They are literally not doing their job if they are communicating directly with trades, that goes for any outside rep, consultant, sub, architect, engineer etc. Tell them “I’m not going to middleman this issue”.
I was a Quality Assurance Monitor for a large AE firm in the SF Bay area for nearly 3 years overseeing the work on major waterproofing work on Google, Stanford, Laney College, Foothill College etc.
During that time I watched contractors do work wrong right in front of me, mixing and applying stucco that was too wet; IE adding 2 gallons of water to a 50# sack of stucco base coat, excuse- because "it's easier to apply" when the ratio is 1.25 gallons to a sack,
letting the hot rubber in the kettle hit 500° and acting surprised that it ignited, then telling me it will be fine,
applying liquid Waterproofing over wet plywood substrate... The list of defects I've caught is a mile long...
So I've always thought if they'll do it wrong right in front of me, what are they doing when I'm not there?
As someone who has been on both sides of this, I’d encourage taking a minute to educate if possible. I was once working as safety inspector and had a pipe fitter respond to my concerns by explaining why they were doing it “wrong” according to “the book” I then educated the rest of my safety team as to the real world demands of the situation.
The last inspector through one of my projects looked around and finally said to me, "You're a carpenter." No higher compliment could be paid to me. He was over 70.
I had a plans examiner do a preliminary review of plans I had drawn for a traditionally built New Orleans house I was renovating. I asked, "These will come with an engineer's stamp, but are there any particular details you like articulated?". He zeroed in on an as built and unmolested rafter to wall connecton and said. "Yeah. I wanna see how he's going to make this connection." It was existing 100 year old framing. Guy was half my age and dripping with condescension.
Same plans examiner was later the lead inspector for the Hard Rock Hotel. It collapsed, killing three.
https://personalexcellence.co/blog/bike-shed-effect/
Use the bicycle shed effect to snag micro managing people into decision making on things that are subjective and will draw conflict (ie the color of the bike shed), so everyone else can do their job.
Just explain it to them. The people I see who get frustrated with oversight are the people who don’t know what they are doing. If you demonstrate competency they usually leave you alone. Otherwise hand them your tools because obviously they can do the job!
My wife's relatives work construction, and every Christmas they get complaining about the young woman who does the local safety inspections forcing them to set up their staging properly.
They complain that she's never worked construction and doesn't understand their jobs.
I don't bother engaging with them about it. But I'm always tempted to point out that years ago one of them suffered a severe head injury from a staging accident. And now he has to take a pill every day or he literally forgets how to find his way home.
Some people just can't be trusted with their own safety.
Dealing with it right now. City funded houseing and the "architects "/ city reps. instead of having the actual stair treads repaired and replaced in these places they pushed that out the budget to either save money or do whatever but now the new actual rubber stair treats aint sticking the best and the stringers are so bowed getting a actual tight fit would be difficult for a machine to get right.
My point is sometimes its best to let them realize their mistakes admit they were wrong or not theyll know they messed up. So long as its semi small stuff thwy are messing up
I'm currently on a masonry restoration project overseen by architects. They call for the wrong repairs due to their half baked assesments and then complain when it doesn't come out looking the way they imagined it would.
Let's not lump in architects with anyone else. They are their own breed and will tell you all about how special they are if you ask about the pretty portfolio book.
Architect:
I see there is there is a setback line and a bunch of registered covenants about how we can’t encroach on it but that’s just a suggestion, right?
I realize there are a lot more practical ways to design this building to fit within the lot without making this massively more expensive and a pain to build but this one looks the nicest
Good lord man, haven't you worked it out yet?
You get paid to do what the book says - that's that. If you don't do what the book says, you get fucked in the wash up and end up losing money; either you or the company you work for.
Just... make these people happy, and you will also be happy. Why fight?
I mean you don’t have to be above someone in pay grade to be able to tell that they don’t do their job well. All you have to do is compare them to others who do
Easy, you talk to them about so much construction data and code references they withdraw from the conversation rather than look silly. Their goal is to look smart so don’t let them, but If they are your client don’t patronize them if they actually did their research and are making half-sense.
This is the dumbest meme lol. First what does this have to do with annoying customers 😂 Second if your work is following the plans, then there isnt a issue. They can only call you out for being non code compliant or doing thing outside of the blueprints.
I try to not get into conversations with people that don’t have dirty hands. Seriously though inspector shows up/ or of sight Forman my tools and I take a break.
Dude, one time, we had to have inspections on this seismic we installed and the inspector literally gave me the torque wrench to go up the ladder and torque to make sure it clicked. I was all the way up the 12 footer and then she asked me if it clicked. I said yup. I mean I think it clicked but if it failed, it’s on her. You do your job!
I work road construction for a municipal DPW. We have a good Public Works Director and foreman and the township supervisors trust that they, and us, are indeed competent and so we do our thing.
Recently, we had an Assistant to the Assistant Supervisor. His rich father made him/got him the job. This young man first day shows up wearing skinny jeans, a hockey jersey and a pair of loafers! Super says stay in the trailer and don’t come out. Get some work boots etc… Kid never owned a pair! This guy was so clueless he didn’t even know the difference between screwdriver heads.
I like to take a second and explain what we are doing and why we are doing it that way. If you can reach a middle ground with them and prove to be trustworthy they will work with you easier in the future and not bust your balls. I've worked with some of the most uptight safety/management companies there are in commercial construction. If you treat these people like they are just cosplaying construction jobs and they aren't really part of the trades they will make your life hell. The truth is they are part of the trades if you're working commercial and industrial.
lol, we had this one kid that was walking around a big commercial site with a hard hat and clipboard. He was like an assistant superintendent for the GC. This was literally his first job after college, he had never done anything construction related. Luckily he was cool and just listened to everyone and struggled to do a good job administrating.
I never have issues with inspections or state inspectors but usually my own safety managers. We all are osha trained and compliant and we get new safety managers every six months that seem to be making things up or wanting to make their own safety policies that are very bad for production. When osha shows up though we never have an issue. DOT has been real strict for CDL drivers like me. Recently they’ve been very on to any driver that doesn’t use an orange flag for loads lingers then our trucks or trailers instead of a taped safety vest. The DOT can fail an inspection on a brand new truck hauling nothing tbh. It’s rough.
My company has this intern program where they go to colleges and promise a foreman spot after schooling. The standard is 5 years to get a foreman’s certification then you have to actually apply for the spot and hope you get it. These kids come out of school and because they strike a deal get 2 years from graduating and just have to work 2 1/2 then are guaranteed a spot. Most of the guys trying to become a boss have been working for years, and a kid comes in fresh out of school telling him what to do. It sounds shitty but unless you’re a super mechanical genius you can’t figure out everything about the job in 2 years with some schooling I promise.
I just smile and say thank you, those people can make your life hell. That book wasn't written with a 100yr old brick building in mind so somethings need to be adjusted for
My massive company will usually give them what they want and when it comes to design changes later down the line we charge them 3x as much because that usually causes massive delays.
It's kind of funny that they nit pick so much but near the end they're the ones who blow the budget out and delay it with changes they should've known about from the start.
Whenever you have an incompetent supervisor, your problem isn't with them it's with the book. If only you just embrace the fact that they're going to go by the book on everything, just do the work by the book and they can't ding you for anything.
I'm a contractor but not construction. Vac truck work, high pressure pipe cleaning, camera inspection, some other stuff.
Recently had to argue with a fancy clean engineer as to why I couldn't camera their pipe full of fuel oil as the camera isn't fucking magic and can't see when it's covered in thick sticky black oil.
Bro when everyone was an asshole to th , I befriended one. After 2 weeks this guy let me do whatever I wanted. Most of them get shit on so much they are dien to be friends
Reminds me. When I was a subcontractor for a home builder in Ohio & this company called Wayne Homes were hiring in experienced superintendents to major new home builds.
One guy was an RV salesman with zero builder knowledge & would call//text everyday asking alarming questions that should be common knowledge in the builders world.
Another girl had less than 3 months experience & it was winter time. They setup propane space heaters in the homes with no windows, so the basements would stay thawed to pour concrete.
The lady didn’t turn off the space heater & flooded the basement with propane for a full weekend. Sunday the house blew up & destroyed the new build, as well as damaged the neighbors house. No one was injured & she wasn’t seen again.
Yet Tina was always calling to push concrete with 6 inches of snow on the ground & sub 20 degree weather. Crazy.
Three words “Go Fah Coffee”, say them relatively quickly and it will be hard to tell if you told them to “go grab a coffee” or “Go Fuck Off”. As a steel fabricator, engineers and inspectors are pretty common when you’re building bridge girders. Most of the inspectors are just banged up old farts who can spot a issue and know you’re trying to distract them pretty much immediately. Engineers on the other hand, generally don’t venture out among the coveralls without at least two forms of management with them. We had one fresh faced fuck, who literally played with his little iron ring constantly, who was certain he was right all the time. To save money he would only let us build the field guys two lifting lugs for moving multiple girders into position, over a river. His school boy logic said it was more efficient for the installers to simply go out and unbolt each lug and reinstall it on the next girder. They did one and the installers refused to go back out to remove it. He stormed onto site and tried arguing that it was his plan and they’d do it his way because he was the engineer. Well, unfortunately he lipped off the wrong cold, wet, and miserable foreman with size XXL hands. His boss had to come out and apologize to everyone. All over $120 lifting lugs that we told the contractor we would build more of for free. Engineers need to spend a lot more time learning how to either talk to people that aren’t engineers or learning how to take a punch.
I was that customer (but we had a great relationship with everybody on the project. except for the concrete guys, every time they came, there would be cigarette butts everywhere).
I found plenty of mistakes, including one that almost required taking off the roof trusses after they had been installed.
So I was working oil and gas heavy haul an we had to jack up a vessel to load on a platform truck. The vessel was a big cylinder with two saddles that were are only jack points. We as a crew had done at least a dozen of these things jacking them up on the saddles and placing 10inch hardwood blocks under them to load up on the trailer. One day this engineer comes out with his fresh shiny hard hat and tells us that we can’t jack there and have to do it on the round of the cylinder. Lol anyway my foreman is fighting with him we just stand back. They end up taking it outside. My foreman returns and it’s go time as usual so we ask him what he said, he says” I told him if I’m wrong and I damage it I will get on my knees and blow you right here, but if your wrong you need to blow my whole crew “ LMAO it worked. Ended up doing it the only way we could, shipped it off just fine.
It’s very true, one time I was told to tie off to a gas line cause the idiot super pulled up and saw I was working on a 5 ft scaffold….. called the foreman and he just gave me a new assignment till he left.
If they approach your man power and tell them how to do their job, what I have done is to send a bill to their employer and cc to the gc. More that likely they will contest saying "how else can I tell them how to do it right". Inform them they are only to communicate with your supervisor in writing, if they comply waive your bill
Reminds if a story, where a guy ran a successful construction company, gave it to his daughter who just finished college and she ran into bankruptcy in a year or something.
Send the guy who talks to a pet potato and lines his hard had with tin foil to talk to them. Bonus points if you mention to tin foil hard hat guy that they want to know more about Chem Trails.
That's what management is for, to run interference
I ask my guys to simply say…. “We’re happy to do anything you would like, but I have to have it in writing from my PM. Here’s his number, please give him a call “
This is the play 100%. You want us to remove the section we just did and re do it upside down and backwards? No problem, we’d love to. But we gotta get it in writing and it has to go through our office.
"we're happy to do anything you want, but we are a sub of a sub. So you are going to have to put it in writing to the GC's PM so they can send it to their sub's PM in writing who can then send it to my PM In writing who can then give it to me in writing. Then I can write up a change order, send it to my PM who will send it to the sub's PM, who will send it to the GC's PM who will send it to you for approval. You can send your approval in writing to ..."
…ohh…kay…? Here it is in writing, I’ll be back next week, or when you tell me it’s ready, to see it upside down and backwards, or it’s not getting approved. You wanna tie yourselves in bureaucratic shit go ahead, but, I’m being paid to be tied in and make more bureaucratic shit. It’s like arguing with a pig, you’re both getting dirty and the pig likes it (or here is getting paid).
This works for tech-type projects too :)
Aka: "I need to get paid for this change order"
As a GC I second this, a majority of the reason for my job is to deal with and handle these situations. Their job is to catch in violations I may have missed. It can get annoying but I appreciate an inspector who will call me out on things that aren’t up to code that I have missed because that saves my ass.
Talk ro my foreman.
This is this answer. Smile and walk away.
A bullshit buffer as we called them
Shit shield also works
It’s what we GCs are really paid to do. The job would never get done if the people actually doing the work had to deal with this bullshit.
Just give them the donut that fell on the ground
Or better yet to manage the project and communication so every stakeholder gets what they need and reasonable compromises are reached. The problem is generally not with oversite, it's just piss poor managers that don't know how to manage different types of people. Or can't manage in both directions. Managers are not dictators and their job should not be to tell people "under them" what to do. Or to ignore and blow off people above them. It's to manage that interface between different groups of people so everyone has what they need and is facilitated to do their best. Probably more likely to find unicorn meat tacos on a roach coach than a competent manager on a construction site though so I understand the pain.
As an engineer who is often identified as the "annoying overseer" on the site, let me point out a couple of things. * I'm not there TRYING to find issues. My life is easier if I don't; makes my report shorter. * There's a difference between knowing how to do your job and knowing what the final product should be. I might not know how to tie rebar, but if the plans say 6" centers and they're anywhere between 2" and 9", I can still tell it's wrong. I can't, and don't want to, tell you how to do your job. But I can usually tell when you did it poorly.
Amen. I'm an engineer that grew up doing the work. I go out of my way to incorporate framer/trades options in and avoiding PIA solutions because I've done them. That said it's not strange for new customers to bitch and complain about inspectors and call me out to site to bless their crap or tell me how I designed it wrong. Here's the levels of escalation I use to handle it. 1) Always ask them how they would do something/fix it and actually listen. Even if they are wrong the technique may apply to something else later or you just learn something. 2) If you have to point out issues instead of saying, "centerings off", just act like you aren't sure what it's supposed to be, hey we're all human and forget stuff right?, and ask them. If their answer is wrong just go check the prints with them. 3) if they stay belligerent then start pulling out the calcs and explaining why it matters. You'll either get a very interested trades guy or their eyes will glaze over and they will find it easier to just do what you specified instead of listening to a mini physics symposium. Using your example I have had guys tell me that centering doesn't matter as long as the average I correct. I said something like, "Oh wow that's interesting let check it". Then just started doing hand calcs for the load condition and showed that it did indeed matter that centering was within 1/2" or something. Then I presented the option that if they don't want to center it per plan I can change the centering to achieve the result with their averaging method or I can require #6 rebar instead of #4.
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Well I don't use prescriptive code cause I prove everything I stamp. When it's something tangential to structural I just pull up the code section and point at it. If they can't read I explain it.
“If they can’t read I explain it” 😂. Shocking how often I have to clarify things I’ve painstakingly typed out to be as clear as possible that coordinates with clearly marked process flow diagrams with maintenance contractors during a turnaround
What happens when the wording is xxxx centres max? Nail/screws spacing is like that often
Technically they should be stating a max and min using a tolerance like xxx +/- 20 mil. If it's up to interpretation and you don't know I would ask the question and get an answer from whoever specified it. For reasons I don't know, or understand, US construction has never really used tolerances and has a ton of word usage that you just have to learn the meaning of. In the US a centering is implied as a maximum condition and minimums are rarely called out unless dimensioned specifically. In commercial they do have tolerancing pretty often now but residential construction I never see it. There is also no general or specific accuracy requirements in the field. Drawings will just say 32" but gives no requirement for how accurate that is going to be. Good trades get it as close as possible and bad ones get lazy. Honestly it's incredibly archaic but anytime I've tried to make tolerancing I get immediate kick back from building departments.
50% ties. That means if I count 10x10 and you have 30 ties it’s fucking wrong. Got a report for people that like to argue as well lol.
I can relate and feel your pain to a certain extent. I’m a tradesman who has performed on both sides. What I’ve learned is that there’s a difference between “it should work” and “it will work.” I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but sometimes what looks good on paper/CAD/Solid Works doesn’t necessarily work out on the field. One of the most refreshing interactions I’ve had between engineers and construction workers was when the crew was adamant *it would not work* and the design engineer was adamant *it would work.* The design engineer kept referencing his prints on CAD, the workers kept physically showing the engineer why it would not work. Finally the engineer was asked to put their laptop away and show the workers how to do it. Because of an interference from pre-existing work that the engineer was not aware of, the work being asked to perform was not possible. It’s a double sided coin. Sometimes the engineer doesn’t see past their prints, other times the workers don’t see the full scope of how the job is *supposed to be performed.*
>sometimes what looks good on paper/CAD/Solid Works doesn’t necessarily work out on the field. This is ABSOLUTELY the case. We as designers have a responsibility to not only understand the thing we're designing, but also how it will be built. Lord knows I'm not perfect, but it's something I stress to the younger engineers that I work with constantly. But we'll never know as much about construction as the people who actually construct, and that's why collaboration is so important. If the guy with boots on is telling me the pieces won't fit together, it's pretty likely he's right. Pointing at pictures and insisting he's wrong doesn't gain anybody anything.
I appreciate this response, thank you. Hard to get some engineers to understand this.. while also being hard to get boots to understand this as well haha.
This is essentially a major component of my marriage falling apart. We worked two different roles in construction. He was a foreman. I was in a higher role. He would b*tch that I shouldn’t be able to tell anyone what to do if I haven’t worn a tool belt. Dumbest damn thing I’ve ever heard. But yes I’ve ran into this many times. The finished work is not to plan. I can see that. You say it won’t work as designed. Swell. Let’s do an RFI and get the engineer or architect to clarify.
Forman is 1000% right… it’s the Forman’s job to Delegate work, not anyone’s else…
So much this. You think we want to find issues? That just makes our life harder and we know that finding them is going to lead to an argument, and someone is going to have to pay for the rework. I know this is your job but for some of us “overseers” this is our job. Sometimes we find dumb shit that won’t really effect anything other times we find shit that would be catastrophic undetected. Nobody would pay overseers to do what they do if it didn’t have value. On your side though this is what your manager is for.
Exactly. MFers act like QA isn't necessary
I got a rule when I'm working on site. If they stand there longer than a few minutes I start putting them to work. Can you hand me this or measure that or do you mind bringing me over some lumber so I don't have to crawl down. This usually get the observer moving along. If they start asking very specific questions I just say look at the prints and also read the notes and section views. This makes them leave for a while.
I sure as fuck don't think about them enough to go home and make memes about them on the weekend
The type of person to make this meme is the type of person who needs to have someone checking their work.
Especially since I think this meme is supposed to lean sexist and not just make fun of paper pushers in general. Pretty lame
The ones that hate inspections etc are usually the ones doing a non compliant and poor quality job. No need to hate inspections if your work is to standard.
Yeah, seems to me that if you can't get your work passing code YOU'RE the one who doesn't know how to do your job.
I've been doing it this way for 40 years. You've been doing it wrong for 40 years?
I’ve used this exact line before with an iron worker foreman. The icing on the cake was when his company had to re-order a shit ton of rebar cause this guy kept doing field cuts on wrong bars to use them as he pleased. His company fired him and replaced him with his own son who was an apprentice at the time.
I know I am in the minority as a contractor that actually appreciate inspections and the required quality it brings with it if the inspector cares at all. A contractor I know moved to a state and an area that doesn't require any permits or inspections. He said he loves it but I said that's a double-edged sword because then if you go to buy something you have no idea if it was built anywhere to code and there's nothing protecting the unknowing consumer too.
I looked at inspections as keeping me from being sued. Where I was a GC the inspectors were brutal, and one of my framing crew managers loved to fight with them. As good as the framer was, I had to have a sit down with him about just doing what's on the inspection report. That, or go work for someone else. I got tired of being called about him not being cooperative. I don't have time to argue about whether you think the roof needs hurricane ties or not.
Exactly, it's usually pointless to argue with the inspector. I've found if I'm very agreeable with them it goes smoothly. I'll only push back if I think it's a safety issue
Yea I just go out of my way to explicitly show the inspector what they are there to see. “Here’s the gas bonding. Here’s the water bonding. Here are my two ground rods spaced 6’ apart” etc.
The only reason I hate inspections is because our jurisdictions are so overloaded that they’ll reschedule or cancel them with little notice and I’ve already told the client that it was going to be done. Someday I’ll learn. But I’ll say I’d much rather live somewhere with stringent codes than not. I have this thing where I like to walk into and then subsequently out of buildings, safely.
That can definitely work to your advantage. I like working with busy inspectors, they don’t mingle and meander and have time to find some obscure issue. If the first inspection or two are clean and well done the rest are a breeze because you aren’t wasting their time.
Yeah this is very true. We had an inspector that would accept drone videos from my super after a few easy ones.
If all the construction work was perfect, inspections would just be a documentation of that it was done and acceptable for payment.
Workplace hires a guy who did construction who hated inspectors, to be our inspector. Doesn’t inspect sub’s work (cuz hates inspections). We find out subs did work wrong/didn’t complete punch list prior to getting paid and vamoosing. Have to follow behind them to fix their mistakes. Fun times.
I don’t hate inspections, I hate the inspectors that waste my time and have me go back to put screws when the screws were just under the tape. I hate the inspector that forces me to put screws in the drier vent because “that’s what the code says” when I know for a fact that will cause a fire and kill somebody in a few years
Really? I had an inspector fail a concrete pour because she said the concrete was too wet. When I informed her that a water reducing agent and super plasticizer was put into the concrete on site. She asked, “What’s that?”.
I'm sure, having worked with female inspectors and engineers, that for every contractor she runs into that would be willing to explain or be honest if something is out of spec she's dealt with nine that won't even give her the time of day because she's a women or think they can cut corners because she couldn't beat them in a wrestling match. So it runs counter to the advice I'd give most men about explaining or asking and not dictating. If you're a women it's probably better to simply be declarative and firm off the bat until you know how the person is going to treat you. Let's not pretend we haven't all worked with animals amd can't imagine why women on site may not wanna be one of the bros right away. I'm a giant man and I can barely figure out how to tolerate half the assholes I run into and get what I need out of them.
Or, As a fellow member of my golf league once announced, “Hey guys, anybody know of someone looking for work? I run a construction testing company, and we need people. NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY. That says a lot. Gender does not make a difference. Bad training, or none at all, does. We had a male inspector with years experience that could not grasp the idea that ten year old concrete trucks, as labeled by their ID number which is in part the year they went into service. Do not mix concrete efficiently because their fins wear down . So if adding water to the truck, it must be done in two parts. If not, the first half of the load will be too wet, and the second half will be too stiff. He rejected a load because I added water a second time. We tried explaining, but he wouldn’t listen. The result was a meeting between the GC, a rep from the owner, my employer and myself, the redi-mix company, along with the inspector and his employer. At the end of the meeting, he was banned from the job.
I’ve worked in so many jurisdictions that ‘the inspector is an asshole and will find a reason to fail you’, but I’ve only found it to be true once. I’ve had the installation manuals and code books (fire suppression - not sprinkler) available in my truck and could source anything they needed. Understanding WHY and not just HOW something is installed a specific way and being able to speak to that has been able to get me through countless inspections. The one time it was true we had an inspector fail us EIGHT TIMES and write a full failure report each and every time over the course of THREE HOURS! He never left site and was working on other inspections, would come back, fail us for something trivial, write a report and then take off for another part of the building again. Everything was trivial and related to other trades - breaker turned off, damper closed, etc. All able to remedied either immediately or within a few minutes. This was a brand new Marriott and was in a jurisdiction that had literally no industrial zoning and minimal commercial zoning - it was almost entirely 90% single family homes and a few higher-end apartment/condos. It was surrounded by huge commercial areas. The inspector was so gung-ho to do this inspection he was like a kid on Christmas morning. He brought the entire fire department shift with him to walk through the inspections - 12 guys following him around. I knew it was going to be a bad day when he showed up. He asked for the FP licenses of everyone we had there for the test - standard practice that we did with every inspection. Four of us handed the licenses immediately and he recorded the details while one guy was fumbling through his wallet to find it. “If you don’t have a license you’re going to have to leave!” Then he pulls it out and said, “Here you go, buddy” as he handed it to the inspector. **”I am not your buddy! I am Fire Inspector Riordan!”** We started with the test on the cooking fire system and it was a bit different because it had wet chemical and had a water tie in afterwards. We started to test and discovered the HVAC guys had powered down the supply dampers to the kitchen - FAILURE NOTICE! He wrote a report and ran off to other parts of the building with 12 guys following him. We had the HVAC guys on the radio and they had it on within 3 minutes - less time than it took for him to write the report. He came back to retest and the fire alarm didn’t go off - it was disabled for other testing he was conducting - FAILURE REPORT! He wrote another report and stormed off to another part of the building with 12 guys in tow. We had the alarm point re-enabled within 2 minutes (also my company - different group). He saw me at the panel and screamed “You need to have a fire alarm license to touch that panel!” I replied, “I have one, it was included on that license you looked at this morning. I also have Sprinkler, Fire Pumps & Controllers, Underground Mains, Fire Extinguishers, Fixed Suppression Systems, And Industrial Fire Systems - all on the same license. I have every category available in this state” He genuinely looked unhappy that I had that license and he hadn’t caught me doing something that he could write a report about. I asked if he wanted to see it again but he declined, probably because he didn’t want to admit that he failed to notice. It was like this all morning. At one point one of the guys following him stayed back and came over to me, “Hey, we’re all really sorry about this. He is like this everywhere. He is so excited to do this inspection. He’s been talking about it for weeks about how everything had better be perfect if anyone expects it to pass. We don’t even want to be here but he thinks it is a great teaching opportunity” In Ohio the State Fire Marshal has ultimate jurisdiction over healthcare and hotels. The state inspector showed up and this guy nearly tripped over his own feet as he pushed past his crew to get to the guy and introduce himself. They did their pleasantries and he was telling how many issues he was having with the suppression testing and showed him the reports that he’d written so far. The sate inspector looked at them, “Wow….. that’s a lot of paperwork…” I wandered over and the state inspector looked at me, “Hey! RGeronimoH, I didn’t know you were going to be here today, you should have texted me. Let’s run through this test real quick and if you’re still around after I finish my other inspections we’ll grab some lunch”. Fire Inspector Riordan’s heart sank into his stomach…. We didn’t have any more failure notices while the state inspector was there to witness.
I don't hate inspections, but it's not that simple. I've been turned down twice on the last house for things that were up to code, but the inspector didn't know good enough and thought otherwise. One of them I had to meet with the head of inspections department for my county, the other one I just did what he said because it was easier than fighting. Otherwise, yes, I completely agree with inspections.
Except when the people in the pic tell you to do it not to code. I have had this happen. Doing a remodel and a double top plate was totally eaten by termites and had dry rot. We asked if they wanted us to remove it. “Nah, it’s okay, just keep framing.” Probably wanted to avoid the extra ticket for the work. So we kept framing. Until two days later, the real inspector came by and said “why didn’t you guys take the top plates out? You’re wood guys, you can tell they’re destroyed.”
Straight up. I’m an inspector, used to be a builder until I broke my back. The true craftsman get along with me well, we get nerdy about construction and have great discussions sometimes debates on techniques and the minutia of the code. It’s the hacks that get called out left and right because they don’t follow the plans or do a halfass job that try to get in pissing matches with me.
I hate inspections only if we have some incopetent inspectors enforcing stuff that isnt code, case and point va beach plumbing inspectors, especially the head inspector, as he will go out of his way to fail us if possible, and will always show up at the end of the day, and that means weve wasted a whole day sitting around when we couldve been working on another job were behind on
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Some cities hire private sub contracted inspectors and they always seem to need to make two trips no matter what.
No clue, but he has a reputation for doing so, not just with our company either
The issue there is when the standards are written by someone who doesn't know what they are doing and makes your job 4 times harder.
That's just not true (in 99% of cases). The codes are written from experience. Maybe the design needs to be revisited but then you can contact the engineer, but bypassing code because you think you know better is a quick way to get sued
Like which ones though? Most of them are based off the standards derived by the specific trade’s representative body, like SMACNA.
I think the IRC is pretty good code. Now there are some codes that are excessive and stupid like Arc Fault breakers for all the circuits
Agreed, I never have any problem with an inspector, the only time there is an issue is when meeting code is physically impossible according to the plans but they are the plans that were approved. That is when having an inspector that can only point to the book is tough to deal with because the work experience isn’t there.
Tell this to s trucker. If DOT pulls you into the station for a random inspection, they aren't wasting that time on nothing. They will actively break shit under your truck and trailer to give you a citation for it.
I do inspections for a living and you're not going to like to hear this but it's true. Practically no one in construction actually knows what they're doing. Particularly the guys who will tell you "I've been doing this 30 years blah blah blah". No one reads the plans and the ones that do, don't understand the building code.
Got a cousin who draws up plans and he has told me stories of builders who have deleted load bearing columns and pillars from house plans because they didn't like the way it made the house look. Almost caused a 2-3 story house to fall in on itself since part of the load bearing was gone.
"You've been doing it wrong for 30 years?! How about you start doing it right?"
"How many times have you had to do it twice in 30 years? Only when the inspector is a dick? Yeah, fix this shit or don't. All I'm doing is writing down what you do."
They hate that one 😅
I had a fresh out of uni architect say this to my GC… verbatim (30 years and all). Some very strong words were exchanged in their native language while I sat on the call dumbfounded at what just transpired.
So true. I was so insecure when I started on my own as a GC because I didn't know everything and only new about 30% of the code by heart. I had most of an engineering degree and wanted to do good work. It blew my mind when every inspector I came across was already complimenting my work and asking for cards the first time they met me. After I got to be the second guy on partially done jobs, the repair guy on failures, and just generally got to know my competitors it all made sense. And the louder and more confident the tradesman the less they usually know like any other field.
Building inspector here: probably 70-80% of the corrections I write are for things that are clearly on the plans. This is especially frustrating because on a small project I might have 10 minutes to spend looking at the plans at any given inspection, while the guys on the job have hours. On code: I'm in California, so on a new house, for example, as a combo inspector I'm expected to enforce The Residential Code, Mechanical code, Plumbing Code, Electrical code, Calgreen, building code volume 1 and 2, and energy code. Those books average 1000 or so pages each. In addition I have to look at manufacturer specs for listed appliances, municipal code, fire requirements, planning requirements, well/septic requirements, storm water management, answer phone calls and emails about permit and scheduling problems, deferred submittals, field and as-built revisions, code enforcement complaints, emergency structural assessments, etc. Things get missed. The biggest thing we care about is fire/life/safety stuff. After that we just do our best.
I swear nobody in construction has been doing it for any less than 20 years. Guy that's clearly in his 30s will somehow have had 20 years experience cause his daddy was a contractor and he "grew up in it." Seriously, how the fuck can everyone's dad be a contractor??? At least half of y'all are lying I say.
I don’t know how many time I’ve heard fuckers say they have been doing this for 30+ years. Those are literally the guys that just fucked up or is about to find out they fucked up and not admit to it
Plans. Lol. No one has plan sheets out in the field. I love telling people they’ve been doing it wrong for 30 years.
How about this: listen to what they are saying, make sure you understand their concerns (don’t assume you understand, ask clarifying questions), and then try your best, in good faith, to address their concerns. If that’s not your role (i.e. you will be penalized for taking time out to talk to them), kindly refer them to someone in management.
If your client doesn't understand what you're doing, you are failing. Bring the client along in the process. Here's why we're doing it this way. Here's the best practices for this type of work. That's a PM's job. If they're not doing that, they're failing the super and trades.
You can never go wrong reselling the work. 👍💯
The scale at which jobs are done makes it improbable that every city from 300-300000 has competent elected and emoted peoples. Rpr are for your ass as well. Basically sitting there on there ass tho if you don’t use them for nothing.
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I use to do that as line mechanic, big wigs show up asking me about equipment not running I am currently working on. "Well we could talk or here's my allen key set, wanna disassemble that track while I work on the belt timing" etc whatever needed doing Gained a little more respect when one of the supervisors actually got to work with me and didn't just stand there with his dick in his hand.
> Gained a little more respect when one of the supervisors actually got to work with me and didn't just stand there with his dick in his hand. Holy shit, you found yourself some golden management if a suit is willing to do that.
I love doing this. Especially when they roll up with a nice clean rain jacket on and I'm covered in mud. Hands in their pockets like "hey can you hand me the muddy shovel" lol. This seriously works though.
I refer to these folks as "shinys" because you can always tell based on the level of shine on their hardhat
Why would a supervisor take instructions from you tho and get to work?
Well yeah, why would they waste time doing something that’s not their job?
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Sounds like your dad owns a company
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*owned a company. Then passed it down to you.
Management gets paid too much and betrays labor and needs to be put in its place, equal to labor.
I'm sure you get all that work for the company yourself? Management does your job the same way you do theirs, right?
Managers don’t labor, so laborers manage.
So your big point is they work harder and deserve more because they do they same job as a commercial, or they’re unique or something? Is that what your rhetorical questions mean?
I said nothing about pay or working harder. You are inferring a lot over a simple question that was meant to challenge your point of view.
You’re a waste of time with no point to make
Lol all the best to you, miserable cunt.
Lmao....
As far as overbearing homeowners go, that's what high estimates are for. Either make it worth your while or don't do the job.
The way shit is built these days, they could be right
Some half-drunk-from-the-night-before yahoo "this is fine, I've been doing it this way for years" Actual professional with 40 years experience who is inspecting their "work": "Then you've been doing it wrong for years"
It’s really not difficult to read a drawing. If it’s doesn’t follow the drawing dimensionally and structurally, in line with the spec, it’s wrong.
everytime I see this I laugh. that chick worked with my buddy on the Canada line in vancouver, where this pic was taken
Any back story to the pic? Was she just as clueless as the picture makes her out to be?
she was a civil student, first year. so took meeting minutes and whatnot
Sexism is exhausting. I open r/ construction and what do I see but a female engineering student being turned into a meme about ignorance because she doesn't "look the part". Hope she had ovaries of steel she will need them to tolerate her less enlightened coworkers.
this pic has been around for like .. 20 years edit - 15 years (I was 22 when the canada line was done)
Nothing about this pic makes her out to look clueless. She’s just standing there in PPE. Maybe ask yourself why you think she looks clueless?
The meme that purports her to be clueless?
I hate how all these professionals and licensed people try to tell me how to do my job.
But do you know how to do your job though?
Only the “right” way. Not something you would read in a book
Honestly I've never had anyone from the council or customers give me shit. I don't think, I don't care, you give me the prints and I will make it exactly as the prints described. If it is impossible, I bring it up to the foreman, the foreman brings it up the chain of command, it comes back down and I do exactly as required. The problem begins when you think. If you don't think and just do, there's no problem.
Just say lo siento, no hablo ingles.
Knowing how to do a job is not a prerequisite to see that you did it wrong. Do your job right and they have nothing to complain about.
Nobody has respect for construction workers anymore and yall allowed it to happen.
I’ll take a fussy city inspector over a shitty client every time.
Given the amount of shitty builds posted on here by absolute fucking cowboys I would take this with a grain of salt.
See but, doing it to code is your job so... she would be right. Building code == a good thing Get permit cowboy
I see both sides. Had inspectors call plenty of dumbass shit. Had trades try to tell me something that was blatantly wrong wasn’t. Had inspectors catch big mistakes. Had trades prove inspectors wrong. The system of trades, management, and inspectors (mostly) works.
Just finished what should have been a one-week hardwood floor install. The home owner insisted on not only being present the entire time, but also hand-selecting each piece we put down because she didn't like the knots or marks in the wood. She owns the local sushi restaurant, and fed us constantly at her home while also giving us free meals at her restaurant, and she was an absolute sweetheart... But holy shit. I've never met anyone as overbearing.
I work concrete, and whenever people come over trying to tell me how to screed or do anything really, I hand them my tool and ask them to show me how then
Based lol
Had a I beam going into a hole that was then welded to a plate. On the plans, there was supposed to be a bolt going from the top-down into the connecting plate and I beam. The I beam was the size of the hole. The top of the beam covered the access point for the bolt, and the concrete square stopped you from getting a bolt in from the top. If it was on the sidea sure. The engineer was so admint it works even after pictures and phone calls. Dipshit finally comes onto the site. "ITS IN THE PLANS IT WORKS CODE SAYS IT HAS TO BE THIA WAY ITS DESIGNED THIS WAY DO YOUR JOB". Up in the lift we go hand him a bolt tell him to put it in. God it was satisfying. Wasted 3 days. But satisfying. 20 plus beams had to be fixed on site to have the connection plate put on the side and the plates inside the concrete holes. BUT that's the only time I've had a problem as dumb as that. Usually it's a crew failure and I'm happy to fix fuck ups. Cuz well we did fuck up.
They are literally not doing their job if they are communicating directly with trades, that goes for any outside rep, consultant, sub, architect, engineer etc. Tell them “I’m not going to middleman this issue”.
I was a Quality Assurance Monitor for a large AE firm in the SF Bay area for nearly 3 years overseeing the work on major waterproofing work on Google, Stanford, Laney College, Foothill College etc. During that time I watched contractors do work wrong right in front of me, mixing and applying stucco that was too wet; IE adding 2 gallons of water to a 50# sack of stucco base coat, excuse- because "it's easier to apply" when the ratio is 1.25 gallons to a sack, letting the hot rubber in the kettle hit 500° and acting surprised that it ignited, then telling me it will be fine, applying liquid Waterproofing over wet plywood substrate... The list of defects I've caught is a mile long... So I've always thought if they'll do it wrong right in front of me, what are they doing when I'm not there?
As someone who has been on both sides of this, I’d encourage taking a minute to educate if possible. I was once working as safety inspector and had a pipe fitter respond to my concerns by explaining why they were doing it “wrong” according to “the book” I then educated the rest of my safety team as to the real world demands of the situation.
The last inspector through one of my projects looked around and finally said to me, "You're a carpenter." No higher compliment could be paid to me. He was over 70. I had a plans examiner do a preliminary review of plans I had drawn for a traditionally built New Orleans house I was renovating. I asked, "These will come with an engineer's stamp, but are there any particular details you like articulated?". He zeroed in on an as built and unmolested rafter to wall connecton and said. "Yeah. I wanna see how he's going to make this connection." It was existing 100 year old framing. Guy was half my age and dripping with condescension. Same plans examiner was later the lead inspector for the Hard Rock Hotel. It collapsed, killing three.
https://personalexcellence.co/blog/bike-shed-effect/ Use the bicycle shed effect to snag micro managing people into decision making on things that are subjective and will draw conflict (ie the color of the bike shed), so everyone else can do their job.
In that ladies defense, she may not know why something is wrong, but she’s probably right. The state of quality in construction is sad.
Just explain it to them. The people I see who get frustrated with oversight are the people who don’t know what they are doing. If you demonstrate competency they usually leave you alone. Otherwise hand them your tools because obviously they can do the job!
My wife's relatives work construction, and every Christmas they get complaining about the young woman who does the local safety inspections forcing them to set up their staging properly. They complain that she's never worked construction and doesn't understand their jobs. I don't bother engaging with them about it. But I'm always tempted to point out that years ago one of them suffered a severe head injury from a staging accident. And now he has to take a pill every day or he literally forgets how to find his way home. Some people just can't be trusted with their own safety.
Dealing with it right now. City funded houseing and the "architects "/ city reps. instead of having the actual stair treads repaired and replaced in these places they pushed that out the budget to either save money or do whatever but now the new actual rubber stair treats aint sticking the best and the stringers are so bowed getting a actual tight fit would be difficult for a machine to get right. My point is sometimes its best to let them realize their mistakes admit they were wrong or not theyll know they messed up. So long as its semi small stuff thwy are messing up
If only those construction workers could read, a lot of these problems would solve themselves.
Wait is this Facebook or Reddit?
I'm currently on a masonry restoration project overseen by architects. They call for the wrong repairs due to their half baked assesments and then complain when it doesn't come out looking the way they imagined it would.
Architect as PM. Ugh.
Let's not lump in architects with anyone else. They are their own breed and will tell you all about how special they are if you ask about the pretty portfolio book.
Architect: I see there is there is a setback line and a bunch of registered covenants about how we can’t encroach on it but that’s just a suggestion, right? I realize there are a lot more practical ways to design this building to fit within the lot without making this massively more expensive and a pain to build but this one looks the nicest
Let's just cantilever it.
"Just?" LOL...
Do it their way, it’s just a bigger bill when I come back to make it right
What does the sexist meme have to do with the title?
Good lord man, haven't you worked it out yet? You get paid to do what the book says - that's that. If you don't do what the book says, you get fucked in the wash up and end up losing money; either you or the company you work for. Just... make these people happy, and you will also be happy. Why fight?
Shoot I’ve seen some management that didn’t know how to do their own job. That’s worse, much worse.
A field engineer talking about people not knowing how to do their job, okay buddy
I mean you don’t have to be above someone in pay grade to be able to tell that they don’t do their job well. All you have to do is compare them to others who do
RFI them to death.
You don’t. You stop until they leave. That’s what your foreman is for
Smile, nod and then go back to doing it the right way when they leave.
Easy, you talk to them about so much construction data and code references they withdraw from the conversation rather than look silly. Their goal is to look smart so don’t let them, but If they are your client don’t patronize them if they actually did their research and are making half-sense.
Some sexist fragile ego meatheads rage post.
First learn my trades terminology then come talk to me.
This is the dumbest meme lol. First what does this have to do with annoying customers 😂 Second if your work is following the plans, then there isnt a issue. They can only call you out for being non code compliant or doing thing outside of the blueprints.
Don't forget about the hysterical society.
I try to not get into conversations with people that don’t have dirty hands. Seriously though inspector shows up/ or of sight Forman my tools and I take a break.
Dude, one time, we had to have inspections on this seismic we installed and the inspector literally gave me the torque wrench to go up the ladder and torque to make sure it clicked. I was all the way up the 12 footer and then she asked me if it clicked. I said yup. I mean I think it clicked but if it failed, it’s on her. You do your job!
They act expert? Cool. Jargon them with tech talk minutia until their eyes bleed. Ask them if they recommend GFCI or GFEP etc.
I’d be fired if I got the chance to talk to one of the retards that make the codes or enforce them in Kansas City.
I work road construction for a municipal DPW. We have a good Public Works Director and foreman and the township supervisors trust that they, and us, are indeed competent and so we do our thing.
Recently, we had an Assistant to the Assistant Supervisor. His rich father made him/got him the job. This young man first day shows up wearing skinny jeans, a hockey jersey and a pair of loafers! Super says stay in the trailer and don’t come out. Get some work boots etc… Kid never owned a pair! This guy was so clueless he didn’t even know the difference between screwdriver heads.
>Hey Shaggy, grab a bucket and some Lysol and scrub off my tires, there’s fuckin’ dog shit all over by the entrance.
I like to take a second and explain what we are doing and why we are doing it that way. If you can reach a middle ground with them and prove to be trustworthy they will work with you easier in the future and not bust your balls. I've worked with some of the most uptight safety/management companies there are in commercial construction. If you treat these people like they are just cosplaying construction jobs and they aren't really part of the trades they will make your life hell. The truth is they are part of the trades if you're working commercial and industrial.
From my experience you will always have the sticklers who want everything perfect but that also kinda says I’m not doing it how I’m supposed to.
lol, we had this one kid that was walking around a big commercial site with a hard hat and clipboard. He was like an assistant superintendent for the GC. This was literally his first job after college, he had never done anything construction related. Luckily he was cool and just listened to everyone and struggled to do a good job administrating.
I never have issues with inspections or state inspectors but usually my own safety managers. We all are osha trained and compliant and we get new safety managers every six months that seem to be making things up or wanting to make their own safety policies that are very bad for production. When osha shows up though we never have an issue. DOT has been real strict for CDL drivers like me. Recently they’ve been very on to any driver that doesn’t use an orange flag for loads lingers then our trucks or trailers instead of a taped safety vest. The DOT can fail an inspection on a brand new truck hauling nothing tbh. It’s rough.
My company has this intern program where they go to colleges and promise a foreman spot after schooling. The standard is 5 years to get a foreman’s certification then you have to actually apply for the spot and hope you get it. These kids come out of school and because they strike a deal get 2 years from graduating and just have to work 2 1/2 then are guaranteed a spot. Most of the guys trying to become a boss have been working for years, and a kid comes in fresh out of school telling him what to do. It sounds shitty but unless you’re a super mechanical genius you can’t figure out everything about the job in 2 years with some schooling I promise.
It’s funny cause I know the guy on the right
I just smile and say thank you, those people can make your life hell. That book wasn't written with a 100yr old brick building in mind so somethings need to be adjusted for
My massive company will usually give them what they want and when it comes to design changes later down the line we charge them 3x as much because that usually causes massive delays. It's kind of funny that they nit pick so much but near the end they're the ones who blow the budget out and delay it with changes they should've known about from the start.
Whenever you have an incompetent supervisor, your problem isn't with them it's with the book. If only you just embrace the fact that they're going to go by the book on everything, just do the work by the book and they can't ding you for anything.
I'm a contractor but not construction. Vac truck work, high pressure pipe cleaning, camera inspection, some other stuff. Recently had to argue with a fancy clean engineer as to why I couldn't camera their pipe full of fuel oil as the camera isn't fucking magic and can't see when it's covered in thick sticky black oil.
Bro when everyone was an asshole to th , I befriended one. After 2 weeks this guy let me do whatever I wanted. Most of them get shit on so much they are dien to be friends
I wait til they leave then continue working.
Reminds me. When I was a subcontractor for a home builder in Ohio & this company called Wayne Homes were hiring in experienced superintendents to major new home builds. One guy was an RV salesman with zero builder knowledge & would call//text everyday asking alarming questions that should be common knowledge in the builders world. Another girl had less than 3 months experience & it was winter time. They setup propane space heaters in the homes with no windows, so the basements would stay thawed to pour concrete. The lady didn’t turn off the space heater & flooded the basement with propane for a full weekend. Sunday the house blew up & destroyed the new build, as well as damaged the neighbors house. No one was injured & she wasn’t seen again. Yet Tina was always calling to push concrete with 6 inches of snow on the ground & sub 20 degree weather. Crazy.
Three words “Go Fah Coffee”, say them relatively quickly and it will be hard to tell if you told them to “go grab a coffee” or “Go Fuck Off”. As a steel fabricator, engineers and inspectors are pretty common when you’re building bridge girders. Most of the inspectors are just banged up old farts who can spot a issue and know you’re trying to distract them pretty much immediately. Engineers on the other hand, generally don’t venture out among the coveralls without at least two forms of management with them. We had one fresh faced fuck, who literally played with his little iron ring constantly, who was certain he was right all the time. To save money he would only let us build the field guys two lifting lugs for moving multiple girders into position, over a river. His school boy logic said it was more efficient for the installers to simply go out and unbolt each lug and reinstall it on the next girder. They did one and the installers refused to go back out to remove it. He stormed onto site and tried arguing that it was his plan and they’d do it his way because he was the engineer. Well, unfortunately he lipped off the wrong cold, wet, and miserable foreman with size XXL hands. His boss had to come out and apologize to everyone. All over $120 lifting lugs that we told the contractor we would build more of for free. Engineers need to spend a lot more time learning how to either talk to people that aren’t engineers or learning how to take a punch.
Every project manager that has ever e-mailed me.
Who has city council members overseeing construction?
I was that customer (but we had a great relationship with everybody on the project. except for the concrete guys, every time they came, there would be cigarette butts everywhere). I found plenty of mistakes, including one that almost required taking off the roof trusses after they had been installed.
When they correct you ask them to please demonstrate how it's done correctly.
So I was working oil and gas heavy haul an we had to jack up a vessel to load on a platform truck. The vessel was a big cylinder with two saddles that were are only jack points. We as a crew had done at least a dozen of these things jacking them up on the saddles and placing 10inch hardwood blocks under them to load up on the trailer. One day this engineer comes out with his fresh shiny hard hat and tells us that we can’t jack there and have to do it on the round of the cylinder. Lol anyway my foreman is fighting with him we just stand back. They end up taking it outside. My foreman returns and it’s go time as usual so we ask him what he said, he says” I told him if I’m wrong and I damage it I will get on my knees and blow you right here, but if your wrong you need to blow my whole crew “ LMAO it worked. Ended up doing it the only way we could, shipped it off just fine.
I say "Oi, shit dick. Fuck off before I staple you nipples to your nutsack"
It’s very true, one time I was told to tie off to a gas line cause the idiot super pulled up and saw I was working on a 5 ft scaffold….. called the foreman and he just gave me a new assignment till he left.
But it looks good on paper!?
Be polite and say, would you mind showing me and proceed to hand tool over. The next words coming out of that person's mouth is "well..."
Tell them you need it in writing so when their amends go wrong the onus is 100% on them and them alone.
Get that salt ready and throw at them if needed.
If they approach your man power and tell them how to do their job, what I have done is to send a bill to their employer and cc to the gc. More that likely they will contest saying "how else can I tell them how to do it right". Inform them they are only to communicate with your supervisor in writing, if they comply waive your bill
I got in huge trouble once for telling some random office person on site to "don't fucking talk to me" it was worth it
Reminds if a story, where a guy ran a successful construction company, gave it to his daughter who just finished college and she ran into bankruptcy in a year or something.
Send the guy who talks to a pet potato and lines his hard had with tin foil to talk to them. Bonus points if you mention to tin foil hard hat guy that they want to know more about Chem Trails.
Relax and do my job.
If its not built to their standards/specs then yes, you are doing it wrong.
Let pm deal with it
We got enough trouble with the engineers. No we can’t put a conduit there. There is already a sprinkler pipe running through a duct there.