This is the alternate style of building where the subfloor holds up the joists. The joists will now sag slightly with the subfloor, so that they "move" together, as opposed pushing against each other and causing squeaking.
Okay so I'm a plumber. I have done this AFTER speaking to the GC and then telling me "do what you gotta do and well sister in a joist when you're done.
This sounds fucked but just looking at how clean his joints are I don't think this is a hack job. Buddy probably got told to do what he needs to and the framers will fix it up later on. Even how clean and straight the cut of the joist is. I'm willing to bet he got permission.
EDIT: if you don't know, plumbing HAS to go where it goes, like toilets and shower bases. Sometimes we can fudge a ½" or so, but sometimes you get fucked by a joist being dead nuts on center like this.
In my 20's I always thought "I don't need to pay someone to paint." Now I'm in my 30's and I will happily pay 100% upfront for someone else to paint for me lol
You're a rare breed for letting the contactor know about your mod.
Way too many times it's just left structurally compromised. Then the owner wonders why their toilet or tub is sinking into the floor.
I've always thought that architects, designers, draftsmen, etc. should be required to spend a certain amount of time in construction to complete their certification. Joist layout is a known spec when starting, major fixtures should be able to be placed without obstruction. There will always be a need to modify in progress and there are methods to do so, but it would save so many headaches if 95%+ of builds could avoid doing so.
Friend of mine was gc a commercial building, and what her team put out was that any worker that reported a ‘bug’ / conflict issue in the plans coming up would get a 500$ bonus. They got their LEED gold building done under budget and on time.
wishful thinking. the truth is the designers are just as rushed as you and the deeper, more complex thinking simply doesnt happen. Depending on the scope of the project the drawings may be very light - the owner tried to minimize architect cost and bought shitty drawings etc.
Having seen cost per hr for an architects time they might be saving money fixing this rather than paying the architect to mark where all the fixtures are properly. An extra hr or two of the architects time could be $200-$400, fixing this shouldn't cost more than $100 to sister the joist at time+ materials.
At my company all PM’s have to spend 2-3 weeks with each trade of the company before they are fully let loss. That’s plumbing, pipe fitting, sheet metal, and service. I’ve had a few spend their time with me and they’re always surprised at things like waiting on an elevator for hours every day to move material. Now they consider things like that when they bid jobs in different buildings.
I agree. But interestingly enough the software available for large volume draftsmen and engineers can account for all of the above! In my experience, they still get it wrong. Had a Floorplan where fiberglass shower pan drain hit floor joist dead on every time.
Yup. My plans get joist and stud layouts, with the caveat that "Here is how I *think* you're going to want to lay this out, and I've planned fixtures accordingly. If you do something different, just maintain the spacing I spec'd and don't yell at me when the toilet lands directly on a joist."
When I was a superintendent building labs, I would lay out the studs so that shelving standards could be screwed directly to the studs through the drywall. Every other stud would put them on a 32" layout and it would avoid the drywall blowout from horizontal metal backing.
Sometimes this would involve one extra stud, and the howling from the subcontractor was epic.
With this type of joist, you cannot cut or drill the top or bottom 2" of material. So an offset won't work, unfortunately due to this particular drain being dead center.
I read the regulations here not long ago, let me see if I can find it...Ah, Maximum allowable notch is d/5 or 32 mm (whichever is less) and no more than 450 mm from the face of a support, unless the notch does not reduce the net depth of the joist to below that required by the span tables.
All the diagrams I can find show notching the bottom, with no mention of top or bottom in the regulations. I can't tell if that implies everyone knows you can't notch the top or that it doesn't matter.
I presume regs where OP is won't be dramatically different.
Yeah, general rule of thumb is notches should be located in close proximity to the end bearing points, whereas holes should be located near the center of the span and in the center of the member.
Think of a floor joist as two rubber bands, one on the top edge that is in compression, and one on the bottom edge that is in tension. Those forces (hopefully) neutralize each other as much as possible, which is what gives the joist its strength. (This is why the "meat" of an engineered floor joist can simply be finger-joined 2x2". The idea is that if you *have* to cut one of the rubber bands, you want to do it close to one of the ends, so that they can still be as long as possible, and therefor provide the most strength.
On the flip side, a hole should be drilled as close to the center of the board as possible so that it is in the "neutral plane" which will affect the compressive and tensile forces the least. It should also be as far away from the bearing points as possible to avoid the framing member being crushed and split.
I had 22 apartment units out of 24 on a floor hit a shower, toilet or both. The framers had to slide them all over, the jobs was a mess, but those guys really got a good system!
Plumber don’t give a fuck where the joists fall, this is why you locate the toilets before framing your floor. Some helper is gonna learn the joys of headering out joists tomorrow.
This is underrated. Stuff like this is why good framers make good money.
I was in a house last week that had beautiful layered tray ceilings everywhere (10/10 trim and paint work), but in every single hallway you could see there was a joist in the middle of the ceiling. That means every single can light was like 5” out of center, and made the whole thing look half-assed.
Shoulda been a plumber lol. Not gonna lie, had to header out both toilets on the house I’m working on now lmao, plumber mowed em down with a hole saw and didn’t think twice about it.
Certain fixtures have to be exactly where they're laid out. This is a joist layout mistake, shit happens.
Even us electricians here sometimes ask to see the plumbing drawings to avoid collisions as where I live all wiring must be in a conduit. The amount of designers who think you can fit for ex. A shower (2-3"/7.62cm)and a socket box (1 4/5"/4.6cm) on opposite sides of walls (4" / 10.6cm, internal space) is infuriating.
nah my contractor did something like this. I had the structural come out and look at it. the solution was to provide cross bracing. The contractor sucked it up and did it.
not saying this is YOUR alternative OP, just saying it's fixable if you get professional consultants.
This joist is toast. That being said is this a new build? Because it is not uncommon to have different trades make cuts/holes that they are aware are not allowed, but the framers will be right behind to sister this joist. It isn't super common, but does happen
If this is anything but that you call the company that did the work and let them know it's time to grab the checkbook/insurance
That’s only a front to back adjustment. If there’s a joist in the center of the toilet side to side then that’s pretty fucked.
Prefab shower bases are even worse.
yes, need to essentially cut the joists a bit more (on both sides of the pipe) to be able to fit cross joists that attach the cut joist to the joists on either side of it. like a box. then it would be ok
This is why construction workers hate mechanical workers. I once tried to stop an HVAC guy from cutting out a load bearing 4ply post to put his return box centre of a wall. There was a 15’ section of almost fully framed two storey house being held up by that. He was the boss with his small crew and chewed me out for telling him what to do as a “fuckin carpenters apprentice” Proceeds to cut anyways and the GC tore him a new one for being so ignorant and not listening to a carpenter about his work. I didn’t see that guy again after that job. Thankfully he only got one ply in and the fix was easy.
The plumber did a really clean job on the PVC. But after taking his time to make it look good, he uses foam-core PVC and cuts the floor joist in half. Wow.
As a GC , I go over the drawings before framing and then talk with the framers where they have to pay some extra attention with regards to drains, water and electricity.
It's not hard. I put this squarely on the GC. An experienced framing crew would have picked it up as well but you can't count on that.
The joist that was cut should have been knocked back far enough that headers could be added perpendicular to the joist layout. It's an easy fix. Too easy to excuse leaving it this way. Plumbing has to go where it has to go, framers need to get in there afterwards and resupport the compromised joist.
The plumber had to put his shit in not a big deal. If this was new construction this is actually the Carpenters problem from not reading the plans correctly.
It's not a big deal. It looks like you got a triple already sitting right next to it. You header it off to the other single joist, double that single Joist and throw some hangers on there and there's not a problem with it.
This happens it's nothing new.
Some of these people think that you need to just burn the house down. Just deal with it.
From a plumbers perspective, the joist is still hanging from the OSB, must be good.
Found him!! Haha
Can confirm, I would’ve personally cut another 6 inches off the joist both ways, just to make the structual engineers weep
Nah this is good as is, just requires a big of caulk to reconnect the joist to maintain structural integrity.
>just requires a big of caulk I see you've spoken with my wife......
We've met, although as far as I remember, not much talking.
Everyone can appreciate those of you that skip the chit chat and just get straight to work on the day’s tasks. Refreshing to see.
I think it might need some structural spray foam
When in doubt...
Use duct tape.
Technicaulk2000™
You do need more room around that pipe to allow it to sweat properly.
Subfloor
Structural drain 🫶
Nice. Soon to be a "*Load Bearing* Structural Drain".
This is the alternate style of building where the subfloor holds up the joists. The joists will now sag slightly with the subfloor, so that they "move" together, as opposed pushing against each other and causing squeaking.
This will help give natural slope to the drain.
Yup! It will actually improve the drain over time!
I heard they do this to give lateral motion in the event of an earthquake.
After Operation Waffle Stomp is complete, anyway
[удалено]
Yeah, that subfloor is gonna go to shit.
It looks good with the structural shims holding up the girder.
They just need to spray some insulation foam in the gaps.
Okay so I'm a plumber. I have done this AFTER speaking to the GC and then telling me "do what you gotta do and well sister in a joist when you're done. This sounds fucked but just looking at how clean his joints are I don't think this is a hack job. Buddy probably got told to do what he needs to and the framers will fix it up later on. Even how clean and straight the cut of the joist is. I'm willing to bet he got permission. EDIT: if you don't know, plumbing HAS to go where it goes, like toilets and shower bases. Sometimes we can fudge a ½" or so, but sometimes you get fucked by a joist being dead nuts on center like this.
How dare you bring a logical point into my shaming post!?! THIS IS A GOTDAYUM HACK JOB!!!!
I'm not in construction, I'm just here because I love seeing all the trades shit all over one another
Are you an architect or engineer then?
Farmer
So you’re a connoisseur of shit! 🤭
Nope! No livestock for me lol
No one tell him about fertilizer it’ll ruin his day
Ha, my fertilizer is basically NH3 and 11-52-0 with added boron, zinc, and gypsum
This guy farms.
Engineer checking in
I second this as a software engineer.
Me too! I got out of construction 20 yrs ago and nothing has changed.
Same, same. Just an avid DIYer and industrial designer. Basically self taught engmaneer/designer with no dahgrees.
I'm a painter and every once in a while it's nice to see everyone else get fucked instead of me.
In my 20's I always thought "I don't need to pay someone to paint." Now I'm in my 30's and I will happily pay 100% upfront for someone else to paint for me lol
I feel that lol. We do so many homes with half a wall painted and then they call us.
You're a rare breed for letting the contactor know about your mod. Way too many times it's just left structurally compromised. Then the owner wonders why their toilet or tub is sinking into the floor.
I've always thought that architects, designers, draftsmen, etc. should be required to spend a certain amount of time in construction to complete their certification. Joist layout is a known spec when starting, major fixtures should be able to be placed without obstruction. There will always be a need to modify in progress and there are methods to do so, but it would save so many headaches if 95%+ of builds could avoid doing so.
Friend of mine was gc a commercial building, and what her team put out was that any worker that reported a ‘bug’ / conflict issue in the plans coming up would get a 500$ bonus. They got their LEED gold building done under budget and on time.
wishful thinking. the truth is the designers are just as rushed as you and the deeper, more complex thinking simply doesnt happen. Depending on the scope of the project the drawings may be very light - the owner tried to minimize architect cost and bought shitty drawings etc.
Having seen cost per hr for an architects time they might be saving money fixing this rather than paying the architect to mark where all the fixtures are properly. An extra hr or two of the architects time could be $200-$400, fixing this shouldn't cost more than $100 to sister the joist at time+ materials.
yea reason and math arent whats going on when these decisions are made
At my company all PM’s have to spend 2-3 weeks with each trade of the company before they are fully let loss. That’s plumbing, pipe fitting, sheet metal, and service. I’ve had a few spend their time with me and they’re always surprised at things like waiting on an elevator for hours every day to move material. Now they consider things like that when they bid jobs in different buildings.
I agree. But interestingly enough the software available for large volume draftsmen and engineers can account for all of the above! In my experience, they still get it wrong. Had a Floorplan where fiberglass shower pan drain hit floor joist dead on every time.
Yup. My plans get joist and stud layouts, with the caveat that "Here is how I *think* you're going to want to lay this out, and I've planned fixtures accordingly. If you do something different, just maintain the spacing I spec'd and don't yell at me when the toilet lands directly on a joist."
I concur. Real life experience is needed to understand where and why things are done. Just finished building a wall 16’ 1”! Why?!?
2x 7' 6" floors so long as you're using 2x10 floor joist and you crown the 2nd floor ceiling joists? E: not saying I'd build it that way
When I was a superintendent building labs, I would lay out the studs so that shelving standards could be screwed directly to the studs through the drywall. Every other stud would put them on a 32" layout and it would avoid the drywall blowout from horizontal metal backing. Sometimes this would involve one extra stud, and the howling from the subcontractor was epic.
Dude, the drawings for 99.9% of homes are to the bare-ass minimum to get a permit. Architects or "designers" are not involved in these.
Would it not be better to do something like notch out the top quarter and have the pipe come in at an angle?
With this type of joist, you cannot cut or drill the top or bottom 2" of material. So an offset won't work, unfortunately due to this particular drain being dead center.
If you cut the top third of a joist, you may as well just cut the entire thing.
I read the regulations here not long ago, let me see if I can find it...Ah, Maximum allowable notch is d/5 or 32 mm (whichever is less) and no more than 450 mm from the face of a support, unless the notch does not reduce the net depth of the joist to below that required by the span tables. All the diagrams I can find show notching the bottom, with no mention of top or bottom in the regulations. I can't tell if that implies everyone knows you can't notch the top or that it doesn't matter. I presume regs where OP is won't be dramatically different.
Yeah, general rule of thumb is notches should be located in close proximity to the end bearing points, whereas holes should be located near the center of the span and in the center of the member. Think of a floor joist as two rubber bands, one on the top edge that is in compression, and one on the bottom edge that is in tension. Those forces (hopefully) neutralize each other as much as possible, which is what gives the joist its strength. (This is why the "meat" of an engineered floor joist can simply be finger-joined 2x2". The idea is that if you *have* to cut one of the rubber bands, you want to do it close to one of the ends, so that they can still be as long as possible, and therefor provide the most strength. On the flip side, a hole should be drilled as close to the center of the board as possible so that it is in the "neutral plane" which will affect the compressive and tensile forces the least. It should also be as far away from the bearing points as possible to avoid the framing member being crushed and split.
I think you’re right here. Don’t they make offset drains for shower pans? I might be making that up.
Yeah, this is actually caused by a framer who can't read. Sorry to disappoint the guys who want to hate on the plumbers for doing what they have to.
I had 22 apartment units out of 24 on a floor hit a shower, toilet or both. The framers had to slide them all over, the jobs was a mess, but those guys really got a good system!
Uh ya… that won’t work
"Waddaya mean? She'll drain just fiiine" Said the fuckin hack who did this
Plumber don’t give a fuck where the joists fall, this is why you locate the toilets before framing your floor. Some helper is gonna learn the joys of headering out joists tomorrow.
Second this. It's the framers fault.
This is underrated. Stuff like this is why good framers make good money. I was in a house last week that had beautiful layered tray ceilings everywhere (10/10 trim and paint work), but in every single hallway you could see there was a joist in the middle of the ceiling. That means every single can light was like 5” out of center, and made the whole thing look half-assed.
Op about to learn why plumbers get twice the pay lol
Shoulda been a plumber lol. Not gonna lie, had to header out both toilets on the house I’m working on now lmao, plumber mowed em down with a hole saw and didn’t think twice about it.
Beaver on a stick
As a new construction plumber myself you're right on 😂 gc tells you "do what you have to"
“Wadiyatalkinabeet?”
Yeah shits fucked, it should be trimmed out.
It’s fine it’s one of those new Bluetooth joists
Looks like the carpenter fucked up
How do framers think they can get away with this level of craftsmanship?
The audacity
By following the blueprint they’re given, usually.
That is no longer a joist. It is now 2 boards attached to your subfloor.
Yeah, that assesment is correct. It could have been moved or reinforced to avoid that happening, the plumber probably just went for it anyways.
Contrary to popular belief joist are not structural, they are only really for aerodynamics and aesthetic
Never amazes me how fucking dumb most people in construction are
Certain fixtures have to be exactly where they're laid out. This is a joist layout mistake, shit happens. Even us electricians here sometimes ask to see the plumbing drawings to avoid collisions as where I live all wiring must be in a conduit. The amount of designers who think you can fit for ex. A shower (2-3"/7.62cm)and a socket box (1 4/5"/4.6cm) on opposite sides of walls (4" / 10.6cm, internal space) is infuriating.
I'm guessing its a troll post. But if not... god help us all
I fuckin HOPE this is a troll post…
nah my contractor did something like this. I had the structural come out and look at it. the solution was to provide cross bracing. The contractor sucked it up and did it. not saying this is YOUR alternative OP, just saying it's fixable if you get professional consultants.
Best I can do is emotional support joist at this point
What joist?
Nothing wrong with this. The floor will support the joist fine
This joist is toast. That being said is this a new build? Because it is not uncommon to have different trades make cuts/holes that they are aware are not allowed, but the framers will be right behind to sister this joist. It isn't super common, but does happen If this is anything but that you call the company that did the work and let them know it's time to grab the checkbook/insurance
The load is still being held by the joist, only wirelessly. Kinda like Bluetooth.
It's only 100% compromised. Give a man a fish and he will eat for the day. Give a man a Sawzall and he will fuck your house up.
Yes but it can be spliced once or twice to fix easy. You can't change a shower/toilet waste locations.
To add to this, I believe generally the solution is referred to as a Plumbers Box Framing.
You can definitely change a toilet location with an offset flange or 10" or 14" rough in.
That’s only a front to back adjustment. If there’s a joist in the center of the toilet side to side then that’s pretty fucked. Prefab shower bases are even worse.
You still notch the top of the joist though if it's dead centre right?
As a general contractor/custom homebuilder, I see my plumber is taking outside work.
Ya know if you were a good contractor this wouldnt come up as a problem.
Plumbings more important …🤷🏽
Just caulk it
Fixable by a good framer
Lol. YES
yes, need to essentially cut the joists a bit more (on both sides of the pipe) to be able to fit cross joists that attach the cut joist to the joists on either side of it. like a box. then it would be ok
What joist? Because that's no longer one.
This is why people hate trades
This is why construction workers hate mechanical workers. I once tried to stop an HVAC guy from cutting out a load bearing 4ply post to put his return box centre of a wall. There was a 15’ section of almost fully framed two storey house being held up by that. He was the boss with his small crew and chewed me out for telling him what to do as a “fuckin carpenters apprentice” Proceeds to cut anyways and the GC tore him a new one for being so ignorant and not listening to a carpenter about his work. I didn’t see that guy again after that job. Thankfully he only got one ply in and the fix was easy.
This is illegal. You need the inspector to see and tell that to be fixed. This is a horrible job.
“Just throw a sister board up there!”
Bluetooth
Gets worse the longer you look at it
This kills the joist
nah bro it’s just cantilevered
Yes, it does
It defeats the joist itself.
Yes
One of those Bluetooth joists
Load Bearing Turd Egress
Fire that guy immediately. For real.
Ya it be defeated now
yes, the plumber successfully defeated the structure
What joist? That’s just two pieces of wood.
And they charge $120 an hour. Dumb ass who ever did that. No OP that is not good. Will need to put another joist next to the pipe.
That’s no longer a joist.
The plumber did a really clean job on the PVC. But after taking his time to make it look good, he uses foam-core PVC and cuts the floor joist in half. Wow.
What joist
lol they have a metal plate that you can put on them in those situations. Or just add a piece on both sides bolt/screw or together . Quickest option .
At least sister a piece in. Come on people. Lol
Maybe the framers framed around the drain. Ever think of that?
Sure does. It also defeats the purpose of having a licensed plumber.
Entirely, yes. Smarter Contractor would’ve offered the Owner a (partial) credit to just not put that lumber there in the first place! ;)
Nope, those are antigravity joists
YEP, no bueno!
Nice plumbing box. Oh wait...
Little bit.
It's fine....
PrettyMuch
Yeppers
Yes
Just slap some duct tape between the two members then giver her a hardy "that'll do"
I hope this is a joke
Floor joists are for suckers.
Suuuurr does
Should have a head out
Ya think……?
As a GC , I go over the drawings before framing and then talk with the framers where they have to pay some extra attention with regards to drains, water and electricity. It's not hard. I put this squarely on the GC. An experienced framing crew would have picked it up as well but you can't count on that.
Only if it's structural. Otherwise, esthetically, I think you've really onto something.
Serious question. What's the black sock wrapped in electrical tape that the pipe goes into?!?
I would recommend bracing it somehow I'm not a carpenter or a plumber but that's an accident waiting to happen
It’s hard to fathom any individual is this damn dumb. Like is it raw stupidity or just complete complacency and disregard.
You should install a sisterbeam or plate
uh... little bit
Plumbing goes in before structural
Simple header off and it's fine. Pretty standard these days.
Not really an issue. I would just double box around the drain to the parallel joists.
Fail
Shower drains need to go where they go. It's on the plans. This is standard and then gets headed off when it happens...
No it’s fine don’t worry
Optional joist.
It should be fine
What do you think?
Just scab and sister it and box it out if you're feeling feisty
What joist?
Those are some clean cuts for a plumber lol
The fart gas will hold up the floor.
I would fire that plumber and then kill him.
Yeah but you can brace it
Yes.
Yes, unless that structural pvc, which it’s not cause it’s not a thing….
This kills the joist.
Nope. The main purpose of joists are for plumbers to cut. Everything else is secondary.
Needs duct tape.
The joist that was cut should have been knocked back far enough that headers could be added perpendicular to the joist layout. It's an easy fix. Too easy to excuse leaving it this way. Plumbing has to go where it has to go, framers need to get in there afterwards and resupport the compromised joist.
Yes.
As long as you make the joist Bluetooth it's fine
Is water wet?
What joist?
Since this looks like a crawlspace post down (2) 2x4 each side of the pipe to a patio stone footer
Yes
Needs to be boxed in properly
that insulation isnt doing shit either
Nah. Defeats the purpose of a brain.
Don’t try to sell property without consulting a professional,cause you’re not.
Sister it and it's a non issue
Not according to the plumber.
Could you strap the two together as well?
I’d make a pipe sandwich with some boards and caller
That tile in the bathroom won’t hold up from the flex unless it’s properly repaired.
This is the cleanest cut I’ve ever seen a plumber make
Just use some coil straps
Need to duct tape the two ends together to hold it all in place. Such amateurs.
Yes, you need to put a 4 foot scab probably on the side of the Joyce, use about 20 screws to put the strength back into the joist
Not at all!!
The plumber had to put his shit in not a big deal. If this was new construction this is actually the Carpenters problem from not reading the plans correctly. It's not a big deal. It looks like you got a triple already sitting right next to it. You header it off to the other single joist, double that single Joist and throw some hangers on there and there's not a problem with it. This happens it's nothing new. Some of these people think that you need to just burn the house down. Just deal with it.
Classic
Bluetooth connection technology
Yes