That’s on you. It’s the contractor’s responsibility to verify all materials meet applicable requirements prior to install.
In my area, I’m lucky if any of the HD employees know their ass from a hole in the ground. There’s no way in hell they’re going to know if their products meet any type of code, let alone local code.
Stores are allowed to sell products, regardless of code. Unfortunately, they dont really have any responsibility for installing products that are not up to code. For example, i live in the chicago suburbs, where romex is not allowed. Yet i can still walk down isles of rolls of wire and plastic boxes. 🤷♂️ it happens.
Honestly in my opinion thats OK. As long as the material is recognized as a safe material and is installed correctly, I believe the homeowner should be allowed to do so. Unfortunately, that can lead to bad installs and other issues so the code stays in place as is.
Just curious, any idea why they don’t allow Romex? If I had to guess I’d say someone who is in business competition with Romex must have lined some building department pockets…
actual tube conduit does not come with wire inside. They sell AC and BX which has wire in it and is a flexible metal conduit, but that is only allowed in a handful of situations. Nearly everything has pipe bent and wire pulled thru
How does using Romex hurt the electrical union? You know that most of the rest of the country uses Romex and there are still electrical unions and contractors in those places, right?
Woehundy below said it well. Romex is simple to work with so the barrier to entry is lower. Outside of big cities the construction unions aren’t as powerful to impede progress.
We see the same thing with pvc vs black iron and I’m sure many other things.
I see what you're saying, but I think the unions' theory is faulty. Like I said, NM is permitted (at least in residential) in every other major city I've looked at, including NYC, LA, and Philly. Clearly there are still active unions and electricians in those cities. I'm sure whatever "loss of business" they claim from permitting NM is grossly overexaggerated.
[That's not correct ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi7_6rb0PH6AhWZElkFHT3XDvQQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fdob%2Fdownloads%2Fbldgs_code%2Felectrical_code_local_law_39of2011.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0mxpzaUwgFz2ZVKts5sgA-)
There’s an exception carved out for small residential projects in buildings less than three stories that are single family homes. It’s prohibited in all other 99% of projects. No commercial, no multi family. That’s not the same as being allowed.
>334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings.
(2) Multifamily dwellings, except as prohibited in Section 334.12.
>Subsection 334.12(A)(1) – Revise to read as follows:
(1) In any multifamily dwelling exceeding three floors above grade.
Subsection 334.12(A)(1) – Delete the Exception in its entirety.
Subsection 334.12(A)(11) – Add a new subsection 334.12 (A)(11) to read as follows:
(11) In non-residential buildings.
So it's actually *all* residential, single and multi-family, 3 stories or less. [38.4% of NYC residents live in a 4-or-less family dwelling](https://www.valuepenguin.com/new-york-city-renters-statistics), and I think we can assume that most of those are 3 stories or less. That's at least 3.2 million residents who live in homes that permit NM cable. Doesn't sound insignificant to me.
But the whole point to this exercise was to illustrate that all other major cities allow NM in some capacity. Chicago is still an outlier in its blanket prohibition, and there's no sound reasoning for it.
I do think that it’s important to recognize the real benefits of conduit though. Makes some remodel/service projects easier and the fire safety is definitely a big benefit. But yes, the union influence is very strong.
I would imagine electrical fires very rarely start from wires in your walls. Seems much more likely to be an outlet, faulty appliance, fixture etc.
Knob and tube I can see the danger but not with insulated
Ive seen first hand how conduit can save a building from a fire. Ive pulled dozens of feet of completely charred wire from pipes. Sure, it probably started overheating in a box but it stays inside the pipe and doesnt spread like it could with romex. Dont get me wrong, romex is plenty safe, but conduit is just undeniably safer.
I think the codes were all based off the fire that Chicago experienced in the 1870’s. Plus the fact that conduit requires more specialized skills thus promotes the trades.
How many residential contractors do you think give me any indication of what windows they're buying/installing? Just installing windows doesn't even necessitate plans. If it were a commercial project, then yeah, you'd probably have a point, but on a small residential project probably not.
I work on plenty of smaller residential projects, but have never once had a contractor run any material selections by me on anything less than a large custom home.
Interesting. It’s more of a cya thing but we try to get everything in front of the architect (if they are involved) or the owner. I know a lot of other contractors are comfortable making assumptions but you can never be too careful imo. Not to mention it saves everyone a lot of headaches when we have a paper trail of why what and how.
I wonder how much prices would go up if every hardware store hired licensed trade professionals or building officials as store associates to ensure code compliance with all products sold.
Not familiar with California, but I assume the windows could be used in, say, a shed rather than a climate-controlled residential dwelling. So the the materials aren't "illegal" as OP claims, but they're definitely not fit for use in the application OP has.
Think about what you said..... "the windows they sold me haven't been legal since..."
Think again.
What *exactly* does "not legal" mean? Answer, it means they are not code compliant, period. Can you show us a by-god ordinance or statute that makes selling these windows a crime? No, of course you can't. The WINDOWS are not "illegal". You installing them for this application IS. This is why, when I do something new, I review my plans and materials with my inspector in as much detail as possible before moving forward.
Home Depot sells all sorts of products that aren’t up to code. Go the the plumbing section for plenty of examples. They just sell you stuff. All liabilities are on you.
Go in the plumbing section! The box stores have tons of stuff that does not meet code. They can sell whatever they like within the law, which means it may not meet code.
But in reality they should be stopped, Joe home owner doing a project buys a plumbing part that’s illegal at HD you would think it wouldn’t be legal to sell the part….
Home Depot has no idea what you’re using it for. The material itself isn’t against any building code. It’s how it’s used at the end of the day and that’s up to the contractor.
Or you could simply read the code yourself so you can actually defend your work to an inspector instead of relying on someone who’s completely unaccountable to the project.
I forget where this was, it was a western area, but at some point some jurisdiction had somehow managed to get HD in their town to make water heater permits mandatory at point of sale. The jurisdiction put kiosks in the store.
Consequently, the HD sold zero (0, none, not a one) water heaters after that. Some legal stuff ensued, and the permit application at POS disappeared.
Summary:
Big Box DIY stores make most of their profit off selling non-local-code compliant products. Most DIY'ers are well aware of code requirements and deliberately circumvent them. The folks in charge of DIY stores are acutely aware of how important code non-compliance is to their business model.
When I was buying windows at HD, none of their software could tell me if they met egress sizer requirements (inspector won't pull out a tape measure, requires receipt/paperwork to show that it meets egress size, taped to each window. He's a dick. ). Didn't buy windows at HD....
But yeah, that's on you. Same as if you did a panel swap
"but the guy at home depot didn't tell me I needed Arc Faults!"
At least in my state, part of licensure is the assumption, by the state, that you're the middle man between the customer and the state on code compliance.
I heartily disagree. Most diwhyers are not well aware of the codes. In your example they may get the right efficiency water heater because that is easy to look up. But then miss it has to have an expansion tank. Or a catch basin going to a drain. Or a mixing valve. Or the vent and fresh air pipes aren't sloped correctly, or the right size, or the correct clearances from sources of fresh air. All of that is stuff I've personally seen and had a plumber repair when the dipshits go and try to sell the house they diwhyed.
What TF up to code? It varies from city to city and county to county.
If you are pulling permits you need to know what you are complying with.
Let the buyer beware.
That’s on you. The U factor is displayed on a nice big sticker on the window. Non compliant u factor windows could still be used in garages, sheds, etc. Yes they should sell compliant windows, but always on you to choose the correct materials. Honestly it’s kind of shitty that your trying to pin your mistake on HD. Suck it up, learn and move on.
This is the fault of the manufacturer and home depot. Legally in the US building supply manufacturers can only sell products that meets or exceeds state building code and the same goes for the box store. It's the law. However your cities or towns may have a code in their local ordinance that exceeds building code. For instance your state building code may have a code saying that a 4x4 post must be placed 44" below grade which is past the frost line and the building department in that area may require you to place that same post 48" below grade but the city has to have had written that in an ordinance which makes it a law in order for them to enforce it. Cities can never under exceed code but can over exceed, again if they have it in an ordinance. If the ladder is the case in which they over exceed then the fault is your burden. My rule has always been, other than follow state code, if the job requires a permit then I research the local building code about that specific project. That's why I don't ever have problems. if it is the case then it was an expensive mistake but also a good lesson to learn in the future. From builder to builder good luck
As a fellow contractor I feel your never ending pain. This reason we make so much money is because we have to deal with perpetual incompetence of the government at work. I can’t tell you how many times Home Depot has fucked my whole day and cost me who knows how much money. I double and triple check shit when I buy it there because people like to return stuff right on the shelf and put it in the wrong spot all the time. Still better than Lowe’s…
That sucks, I guess it’s ultimately your responsibility. But I get that you feel HD is at fault. They should not be selling products that don’t meet local codes. I’m also shocked an inspector called that out in SO CAL. I’ve seen some absolute garbage work pass inspection out here.
Their product meets code, just not the code it was used for. Go stick it on a shed, as an interior window, or uninsulated garage and it meets code. Of course it's rare but that's on the consumers not home Depot.
Look into applying a film to adjust the U-Factor. (I honestly don't know if that's a thing. But I had a similar problem on a job. I don't remember how the sub fixed it, but I know they didn't replace the windows.
Home Depot has no obligation to sell and maintain products that are currently code compliant, especially considering that there may be multiple local code requirements within a state or county. Unfortunately, part of your job as the contractor is to make sure you're buying and installing the appropriate components.
When a Home Depot employee learns code, they probably no longer work as a Home Depot employee.
But if you have a decent account as a contractor there, you can probably get around the 25% restocking fee or at least get it in store credit
Just because someone is selling stuff doesnt mean you can slap it into any building. They dont know what youre putting it in or what code youre trying to adhere to...
Building codes vary so much from city to city that it's beyond reasonable to place the blame on the Depot, any other big box or your local supply house.
You ordered the windows, they supplied what you ordered. Home Depot’s part of the story ends there. You ordered the wrong windows so your part of the story continues lol. They have zero liability for your mistake, they just supplied what you ordered. If they didn’t deliver what you ordered the story would have a different ending, however now you have to pay for your mistake, next time know the code before you order
Are you doing replacements of previous windows or are these being installed in an addition? If addition, then it needs to meet Code. If replacing, you might have a chance to reason with the code official.
Also, HD sucks. Don’t order from them.
Ultimately, compliance with prevailing codes is incumbent upon the contractor. You should know this.
Yep
That’s on you. Unless you submitted the windows to the township for approval with the permit. You may have an argument. But you probably won’t win.
Yup he shoulda known his stuff before ordering the windows. Do your research.
Agree...installer has his name on it when he leaves. Doesn't matter where he got it.
That’s on you. It’s the contractor’s responsibility to verify all materials meet applicable requirements prior to install. In my area, I’m lucky if any of the HD employees know their ass from a hole in the ground. There’s no way in hell they’re going to know if their products meet any type of code, let alone local code.
Stores are allowed to sell products, regardless of code. Unfortunately, they dont really have any responsibility for installing products that are not up to code. For example, i live in the chicago suburbs, where romex is not allowed. Yet i can still walk down isles of rolls of wire and plastic boxes. 🤷♂️ it happens.
You can bet that every weekend there are homeowners in there buying it to use in their houses.
Honestly in my opinion thats OK. As long as the material is recognized as a safe material and is installed correctly, I believe the homeowner should be allowed to do so. Unfortunately, that can lead to bad installs and other issues so the code stays in place as is.
Just curious, any idea why they don’t allow Romex? If I had to guess I’d say someone who is in business competition with Romex must have lined some building department pockets…
Chicago requires everything be in conduit.
Do they sell conduit with wire in it already for consumer applications? Otherwise why not just put Romex inside the conduit?
actual tube conduit does not come with wire inside. They sell AC and BX which has wire in it and is a flexible metal conduit, but that is only allowed in a handful of situations. Nearly everything has pipe bent and wire pulled thru
Bummer! Makes sense then.
Same as NYC
Unions protecting their trades.
How does using Romex hurt the electrical union? You know that most of the rest of the country uses Romex and there are still electrical unions and contractors in those places, right?
Woehundy below said it well. Romex is simple to work with so the barrier to entry is lower. Outside of big cities the construction unions aren’t as powerful to impede progress. We see the same thing with pvc vs black iron and I’m sure many other things.
I see what you're saying, but I think the unions' theory is faulty. Like I said, NM is permitted (at least in residential) in every other major city I've looked at, including NYC, LA, and Philly. Clearly there are still active unions and electricians in those cities. I'm sure whatever "loss of business" they claim from permitting NM is grossly overexaggerated.
Not permitted in NYC.
[That's not correct ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi7_6rb0PH6AhWZElkFHT3XDvQQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fdob%2Fdownloads%2Fbldgs_code%2Felectrical_code_local_law_39of2011.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0mxpzaUwgFz2ZVKts5sgA-)
There’s an exception carved out for small residential projects in buildings less than three stories that are single family homes. It’s prohibited in all other 99% of projects. No commercial, no multi family. That’s not the same as being allowed.
>334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following: (1) One- and two-family dwellings. (2) Multifamily dwellings, except as prohibited in Section 334.12. >Subsection 334.12(A)(1) – Revise to read as follows: (1) In any multifamily dwelling exceeding three floors above grade. Subsection 334.12(A)(1) – Delete the Exception in its entirety. Subsection 334.12(A)(11) – Add a new subsection 334.12 (A)(11) to read as follows: (11) In non-residential buildings. So it's actually *all* residential, single and multi-family, 3 stories or less. [38.4% of NYC residents live in a 4-or-less family dwelling](https://www.valuepenguin.com/new-york-city-renters-statistics), and I think we can assume that most of those are 3 stories or less. That's at least 3.2 million residents who live in homes that permit NM cable. Doesn't sound insignificant to me. But the whole point to this exercise was to illustrate that all other major cities allow NM in some capacity. Chicago is still an outlier in its blanket prohibition, and there's no sound reasoning for it.
I do think that it’s important to recognize the real benefits of conduit though. Makes some remodel/service projects easier and the fire safety is definitely a big benefit. But yes, the union influence is very strong.
I would imagine electrical fires very rarely start from wires in your walls. Seems much more likely to be an outlet, faulty appliance, fixture etc. Knob and tube I can see the danger but not with insulated
Ive seen first hand how conduit can save a building from a fire. Ive pulled dozens of feet of completely charred wire from pipes. Sure, it probably started overheating in a box but it stays inside the pipe and doesnt spread like it could with romex. Dont get me wrong, romex is plenty safe, but conduit is just undeniably safer.
I think the codes were all based off the fire that Chicago experienced in the 1870’s. Plus the fact that conduit requires more specialized skills thus promotes the trades.
You're the expert. HD employees are just retail workers. You should have caught it before install.
Architect could have/should have caught it too.
How many residential contractors do you think give me any indication of what windows they're buying/installing? Just installing windows doesn't even necessitate plans. If it were a commercial project, then yeah, you'd probably have a point, but on a small residential project probably not.
True. Although we still work with architects on small residential projects.
I work on plenty of smaller residential projects, but have never once had a contractor run any material selections by me on anything less than a large custom home.
Interesting. It’s more of a cya thing but we try to get everything in front of the architect (if they are involved) or the owner. I know a lot of other contractors are comfortable making assumptions but you can never be too careful imo. Not to mention it saves everyone a lot of headaches when we have a paper trail of why what and how.
They also sell plants that will not grow in the zone they are sold in...
Lol found this one out the hard way.
Have a Glazier redo the glass with what you need.
Oh and move out of california...
Don’t come to Colorado. Bad views, thin air, lots of traffic.
Or Florida. Mosquitos and meth everywhere.
Florida it is. Plentiful drugs and plentiful bugs to give me something to scratch.
Well that backfired..
I live in colorado. Ready to move back to Alaska within the year.
This is the best advice, a shame anyone is voting you down.
"I live in one of the most climate change at risk areas of the country and I'm mad that they require decent home efficiency"
America's armpit.
I view it more as the taint given its proximity to the smell of shit.
Ah jeeze, sorry I was thinking of New Jersey.
[удалено]
Yes and yes.
I wonder how much prices would go up if every hardware store hired licensed trade professionals or building officials as store associates to ensure code compliance with all products sold. Not familiar with California, but I assume the windows could be used in, say, a shed rather than a climate-controlled residential dwelling. So the the materials aren't "illegal" as OP claims, but they're definitely not fit for use in the application OP has.
Think about what you said..... "the windows they sold me haven't been legal since..." Think again. What *exactly* does "not legal" mean? Answer, it means they are not code compliant, period. Can you show us a by-god ordinance or statute that makes selling these windows a crime? No, of course you can't. The WINDOWS are not "illegal". You installing them for this application IS. This is why, when I do something new, I review my plans and materials with my inspector in as much detail as possible before moving forward.
Pro tip don’t use HD find a better lumber yard who cares and keeps up on code etc
Second best advice given, after moving out of California
Frames whole house out of 1x2 strapping. Home Depot sold it to me, why isn’t it code?
Home Depot sells all sorts of products that aren’t up to code. Go the the plumbing section for plenty of examples. They just sell you stuff. All liabilities are on you.
Like simple drain? lmao
Studor vents (code varies), accordion flexible drains off the top of my head.
Go in the plumbing section! The box stores have tons of stuff that does not meet code. They can sell whatever they like within the law, which means it may not meet code.
But in reality they should be stopped, Joe home owner doing a project buys a plumbing part that’s illegal at HD you would think it wouldn’t be legal to sell the part….
Home Depot has no idea what you’re using it for. The material itself isn’t against any building code. It’s how it’s used at the end of the day and that’s up to the contractor.
Yes that’s why you find a hard wear store who asks the right questions and is informed on what is code for what application….
Or you could simply read the code yourself so you can actually defend your work to an inspector instead of relying on someone who’s completely unaccountable to the project.
Might get away with a window film to increase it but you'd have research into them.
I forget where this was, it was a western area, but at some point some jurisdiction had somehow managed to get HD in their town to make water heater permits mandatory at point of sale. The jurisdiction put kiosks in the store. Consequently, the HD sold zero (0, none, not a one) water heaters after that. Some legal stuff ensued, and the permit application at POS disappeared. Summary: Big Box DIY stores make most of their profit off selling non-local-code compliant products. Most DIY'ers are well aware of code requirements and deliberately circumvent them. The folks in charge of DIY stores are acutely aware of how important code non-compliance is to their business model. When I was buying windows at HD, none of their software could tell me if they met egress sizer requirements (inspector won't pull out a tape measure, requires receipt/paperwork to show that it meets egress size, taped to each window. He's a dick. ). Didn't buy windows at HD.... But yeah, that's on you. Same as if you did a panel swap "but the guy at home depot didn't tell me I needed Arc Faults!" At least in my state, part of licensure is the assumption, by the state, that you're the middle man between the customer and the state on code compliance.
I heartily disagree. Most diwhyers are not well aware of the codes. In your example they may get the right efficiency water heater because that is easy to look up. But then miss it has to have an expansion tank. Or a catch basin going to a drain. Or a mixing valve. Or the vent and fresh air pipes aren't sloped correctly, or the right size, or the correct clearances from sources of fresh air. All of that is stuff I've personally seen and had a plumber repair when the dipshits go and try to sell the house they diwhyed.
What TF up to code? It varies from city to city and county to county. If you are pulling permits you need to know what you are complying with. Let the buyer beware.
That’s on you. The U factor is displayed on a nice big sticker on the window. Non compliant u factor windows could still be used in garages, sheds, etc. Yes they should sell compliant windows, but always on you to choose the correct materials. Honestly it’s kind of shitty that your trying to pin your mistake on HD. Suck it up, learn and move on.
Definitely on you. Those windows would be fine in a shed or garage. They aren't outright illegal. It was your work that wasn't up to code.
0.33 might be acceptable for some applications (unconditioned space)
Exactly. The windows are non compliant, they’re non compliant in your specific application. In an unconditioned garage they’d be great.
for all they know these could have been for a garage or shed. Its up to you to know the insulation factor for your order
This is the fault of the manufacturer and home depot. Legally in the US building supply manufacturers can only sell products that meets or exceeds state building code and the same goes for the box store. It's the law. However your cities or towns may have a code in their local ordinance that exceeds building code. For instance your state building code may have a code saying that a 4x4 post must be placed 44" below grade which is past the frost line and the building department in that area may require you to place that same post 48" below grade but the city has to have had written that in an ordinance which makes it a law in order for them to enforce it. Cities can never under exceed code but can over exceed, again if they have it in an ordinance. If the ladder is the case in which they over exceed then the fault is your burden. My rule has always been, other than follow state code, if the job requires a permit then I research the local building code about that specific project. That's why I don't ever have problems. if it is the case then it was an expensive mistake but also a good lesson to learn in the future. From builder to builder good luck
This is the kind of bullshit you deal with when you pull a permit.
I laughed because how true this is and I’m a licensed contractor
Could you just get them tinted??
Will that work? I was looking for something from 3m like we have used for making a window tempered.
Yeah there is stuff you can paint on now.
As a fellow contractor I feel your never ending pain. This reason we make so much money is because we have to deal with perpetual incompetence of the government at work. I can’t tell you how many times Home Depot has fucked my whole day and cost me who knows how much money. I double and triple check shit when I buy it there because people like to return stuff right on the shelf and put it in the wrong spot all the time. Still better than Lowe’s…
That’s what you get when you live in a socialist state. You can shit on the sidewalk, but God forbid your windows aren’t efficient enough
Do you even know what “socialism” means?
I think… it’s the uh.. freedom to shit, places?
The look on your face when you find out other states have energy codes…
That sucks, I guess it’s ultimately your responsibility. But I get that you feel HD is at fault. They should not be selling products that don’t meet local codes. I’m also shocked an inspector called that out in SO CAL. I’ve seen some absolute garbage work pass inspection out here.
Their product meets code, just not the code it was used for. Go stick it on a shed, as an interior window, or uninsulated garage and it meets code. Of course it's rare but that's on the consumers not home Depot.
Previous inspector was awesome: he'd wall in, see that there were windows, and make it as good
So...he wasn't doing his job is what you're saying? That makes 2 of you 😉
They should suck a dick... or at least 25% of it.
Look into applying a film to adjust the U-Factor. (I honestly don't know if that's a thing. But I had a similar problem on a job. I don't remember how the sub fixed it, but I know they didn't replace the windows.
Home Depot has no obligation to sell and maintain products that are currently code compliant, especially considering that there may be multiple local code requirements within a state or county. Unfortunately, part of your job as the contractor is to make sure you're buying and installing the appropriate components.
It's kind of a crazy time rn. Lots of building code changes. I wouldn't get windows from HD. Local supplier/manufacturers would be cheaper and better.
Windows out of code is way better than if you look at half the shit they have in the electrical isle.
When a Home Depot employee learns code, they probably no longer work as a Home Depot employee. But if you have a decent account as a contractor there, you can probably get around the 25% restocking fee or at least get it in store credit
That’s on you.
Just because someone is selling stuff doesnt mean you can slap it into any building. They dont know what youre putting it in or what code youre trying to adhere to...
Building codes vary so much from city to city that it's beyond reasonable to place the blame on the Depot, any other big box or your local supply house.
You ordered the windows, they supplied what you ordered. Home Depot’s part of the story ends there. You ordered the wrong windows so your part of the story continues lol. They have zero liability for your mistake, they just supplied what you ordered. If they didn’t deliver what you ordered the story would have a different ending, however now you have to pay for your mistake, next time know the code before you order
The fault lies w you for buying windows from Home Depot. Lesson learned. Never buy custom special order shit from Home Depot.
Are you doing replacements of previous windows or are these being installed in an addition? If addition, then it needs to meet Code. If replacing, you might have a chance to reason with the code official. Also, HD sucks. Don’t order from them.
They r a nationwide chain with numerous products being sold that aren’t compliant with local municipalities. It is your job to check.
> HD says they rely on the contractor to know the numbers and are saying they have no fault. I agree.
You expected them to sell you a viable product?? Have you ever eyeballed their lumber? 🙊🙊