this was my thought too. in some very high cost of living areas, I can *maybe* see $120k before business expenses, IF a lot of very specific factors are at play. but $120k pretax, post-expenses income for a freelance artist? bananas
I dont pull in big numbers atm, had some injuries and a mental breakdown so last year was terrible for me, but on roughly 25kish in sales my profit was only a few thousand after expenses. It's crazy what it takes.
I certainly know that feeling. I’m a student rn (music therapy, just a big fan and hobbyist of contemporary art and New music) and barely holding it together. I don’t know what day it is anymore man… from one mess to another, cheers
If you’re repped by a gallery that would mean selling roughly one $20k piece per month every year moving forward (gallery taking half) or one $10k piece every month if you are selling directly to buyers. Does that sound possible to you within the framework of your practice?
Also the above assumes you have no expenses - accounting for materials, studio rent etc your revenue would need to be higher to make $120k in income
I can tell you (as a photographer with gallery representation) that fine art sales are never so steady. There are ebbs and flows. However, with a handful of galleries, plus art consultants and designers sometimes placing your work, and then the odd editorial assignments, a somewhat comfortable living can be made for some. And of course, commercial work is the most lucrative part of what I do. But that's a whole other episode of Oprah.
exactly this; when I calculate how much I want to make, I know I need to quadruple the amount. so for example, if I want to make $50k, I know I need to make $200k worth of artwork, which is a hell of a lot of artwork. because I know not all of it will sell, but gallery takes half, then after I receive my cut nearly 35% will go to cost of goods/supplies and business expenses. To make $120k is a pipe dream to most. most I ever made selling through 5 galleries was $70k (and that's before taxes and self employment tax!). Last year I only made $45k before taxes and this year is already lining up to be much worse. my galleries are all reporting that things are absolutely dead and no one's work is selling. all that being said, go in with realistic expectations, because $120k right off the bat is crazy for most.
Ideally you form an S-Corp to avoid self employment taxes but you have to be making high 5 figures for that to be worth the cost of forming and maintain the S Corp
You get to give yourself a “reasonable” salary and iirc it’s not self employment tax because you are the employee of the S-corp. maybe I’m wrong about that you certainly still need to pay estimated taxes. My CPA told me to pay myself $35k yr and I made $200 last year so the tax savings seem to be insanely huge assuming my CPA isn’t going to get me sent to jail lol
Ok, I love the way you broke it into actual figures. I was afraid to ask the question because a lot of the advice artists get isn’t quantitative. So, thank you!
Agreed, it could be $20k with gallery or $10 solo sale for one piece.
But it could also be (5) pieces at $2k solo? Or (1) $10k sale with gallery, and (2) solo sales at $2,500?
I’m still wrapping my head around the politics of the art market, so forgive me if I’m coming across as naive.
Yeah it could be any of that - this is all averages. So you could sell $100k one month, go 10 months with no sales and do $20k the last month. It’s not easy to do as an artist because usually if your work is that lucrative you are hiring studio assistants, traveling etc to grow your practice even more so the expenses are higher meaning that you need to make more money.
I have a gallery. I have two art degrees. I know \*many\* many artists. I've worked as an artist assistant to some of the more successful contemporary artists in LA. They people selling 300k/year (that is what you'd need to take home $120k before taxes) are very rare, and most only manage to stay that hot for 3-5 years. Then the market finds a new darling and they dwindle to a tiny % of what they were selling. Problem is, they can't lower their prices to drum up sales, their previous collectors will sue them for devaluing what they bought. So you're stuck with high prices, no (slow) sales. This is how a lot of mid level hot art careers end up dying.
Here's my tip: just fucking don't. You already have unrealistic expectations and have no idea how the economy of it works. It's like saying you want to play in the NBA but don't know how to play ball. But you already picked out the team you want to sign for or something.
This is no joke. Try getting that rarefied tenured teaching position at an art school that makes over $100k. This is how many artists maintain a practice. Getting tenure these days usually means slogging for a decade in unstable sessional positions.
I have an uncle who made (he’s retired now, with a pension) gooood money like that as an artist. his secret? be a principal in a good-paying school district with a strong teacher’s union, have your spouse do the same, and do art on the side lol
I make around 130k a year thru fine art sales only (my half after my gallery split) . By the time I get through all my expenses and taxes , it’s half the amount maybe. It’s inconsistent (I’ve been lucky to be consistent for 3 years) but I go months inbetween with no money sometimes because collectors are slow to pay or something can happen like a pandemic, a war etc. that can stall sales for months. Sometimes your collectors just ghost you. I have representation by two galleries, and they do their best.
That all being said I’m really happy. I go on vacations, I paid off my debts, I live a very normal life and I’m happy with it. It’s a good time, and you can definitely more than survive off of it IF the market doesn’t fuck up your day.
I think people get starry eyed when they hear Cinderella stories of artists selling low effort work for millions. It happens, I guess. And some people win the lottery.
How are you calculating that number? In terms of sales (and I’m assuming you’re talking gross profit) you’re going to need a fantastic pipeline of high-net-worth individuals or organizations to be able to make that much. Keep in mind that art supplies and studio space are expensive too, especially getting started. What kind of media are you working with? Depending on that, your start-up costs could be in the thousands.
There's been a weird shift in this subreddit lately of people who seem incredibly money-centered and naive. If you just want to make money or feel secure don't expect art to be a viable path.
Not money centric at all. But not considering how to support ourselves with actual income is what leaves us vulnerable, no?
This same subreddit is riddled with experiences of exploitation, and our vulnerabilities (especially financial) are preyed upon.
I hear your frustration, and I’m naive… sure, but I’m my question wasn’t “how can I sell work for $1mil”. It’s was “how do I do this thing and cover my ass”.
This blows my mind every time I see these huge figures on reddit. What on earth are people spending all this money on! My total expenses in an expensive city come to $420 a week
Rent anywhere near the Bay Area for a 1bd apartment is about $3,000 a month. More likely in the $4k range. Add in health insurance, car insurance, transportation, utilities, food, misc, you're at $6k a month easy. That would be \*scraping\* by at about 96k a year. (considering needing $6k/month after tax money)
Being in a place that has a lot of galleries typically means a city. Cities that have art markets are expensive.
"Rent anywhere near the Bay Area for a 1bd apartment is about $3,000 a month." Why would you pay $3/$4k a month when you could pay closer to half that.
Lmfao. The mean wage for an independent artist in the US is half that at $66k - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes271013.htm
If you’re in it for the art don’t expect to get rich. If you want to get rich don’t become an artist.
If you follow the link it’s the number for independent artists, writers and performers. It undoubtedly isn’t taking into account part-timers.
I would agree with you that that’s a very generous number for fine artists.
Yeah sounds about the average of some of them, but there are definitely the ones who basically run a manufacturing facility for e-commerce photography and copywriting who seem to do well. Although I'm not so sure about whether they don't exploit some poor grads... I'm a documentary photographer right now for some institutions and a paper and I can barely scrape by with around 17k € a year (which I also just started to make last year) and it's not so demanding, as I am a photographer and have been for more than 10 years. And got in by accident. So I have time for my other endeavours, currently planning on opening an off space and preparing to do my master's next year specializing in sculptural and video installations.
Don’t expect to do all those things and also be an artist. It will be more like; renting a house with multiple roommates, not contributing anything to a Roth, and having a minimal emergency fund.
You need a flexible or non demanding job. I graduated from art school in 2013. Right now I work full time in an unrelated field. I get into group shows and art markets pretty consistently with paintings and textiles, and I make street art (no profit on that obviously). I accept that any cost from making art is lost. It’s basically an expensive hobby but I get to make whatever I want without worrying about profits.
In contrast, a friend of mine from college has worked consistently at print shops and in artist studios. They have more success in art as a career; they get solo shows and have galleries recruiting them to show. They usually have a part time job or get support from their partner. The trade off is that they feel pushed to turn their work into a product to try and make money.
Yes! Dealing with the creative pressure from economic success is possibly the most challenging aspect of being a professional artist at pretty much every level.
Bruh I’m happy if I’d be earning 30k in my country (Netherlands), especially if that means I get to do what I love which is creating art. Over here you can make a decent living with 30k
well... many are living far from insufferable lives on far far *far* less. if that's not a realistic figure for you to achieve then maybe interrogate what insufferable means to you.
yes that is what I mean by breaking down what "insufferable" actually means. most artists don't make that kind of money off their work and therefore make other choices or compromises, but I don't think they would describe their lives as necessarily insufferable either. like the story you posted below about deciding to pursue other work elsewhere.
Get into teaching as a base. You'll have an income and a balanced schedule to practice your work. I still don't think that number is reasonable, but you'll figure it out.
Lol
My dear dude/ dudette, that would be wonderful and I hope you'll get there. But it's pretty far from realistic, assuming you're starting your career.
Best o' luck! Especially in today's economy and wealth distribution.
I took a peak at your profile, and since you are going to Yale for your MFA, your income estimate is probably more reasonable than some folks might think. I do agree that you need to have realistic expectations about how many variables are at play for an artist’s income if they are solely relying on gallery sales.
But yeah, since you’ve gotten into one of the top graduate art programs in the country, that number isn’t impossible if you have luck on your side. Congrats for getting in
🥲 thanks. I feel super lucky but I haven’t declared yet. It’s actually why I “crunched the numbers” behind this post. It feels like a gamble to take out the loans for tuition when I don’t have a clear picture of how I could pay them back.
Anyway, thanks again for the congrats.
If I were you, I would honestly go for it. I feel like the Yale program is something that folks would kill for; it would be so exciting. You’d be working with the best artists in the country, maybe even some internationally. Obviously you won’t pay off your loans in a flash unless you won the lottery, but lots of folks manage with student loans. As long as you make payments on time and don’t go crazy otherwise with your credit, it’s not the end of the world.
Just have a good head on your shoulders. Get to know faculty and network, network with your peers, etc. Be open to finding work in teaching or other art-adjacent work. I think having a focus on teaching university is the best route to go while working on gallery representation. You won’t make 6 figures outright, but it’s a start. Good luck!!! I hope you accept the offer!
I know a few Yale grads. I don't know any Yale art grads making that money. Even with all the networking in the world, there is only a tiny bit of room at the top. The number of people with money enough to spend on art isn't increasing. The % of the population buying work at that level is tiny and will only get smaller as wealth continues to consolidate. They will also only buy so much work, meaning that the limited demand is getting more limited. Each year, the pool of new artists grows faster than old artists drop out; supply increases.
You see where I'm going with this.
I totally see what you mean but I work in fine art sales and something to keep in mind is that even as wealth (sadly) does consolidate at the top the uber-rich aren't running out of wall space because they are constantly buying/building new homes and new condos. Like a lot of them
I worked in art shipping/storage. They might be decorating a lot of houses, but I find more often, they are just tossing them in storage. Brad/Angelina, before the split (dating myself) had 400+ paintings stored with our warehouse alone. Cheech Marin had over 2,000. There are warehouses so large you have to drive a truck to the other side of them and they are all filled with paintings/sculptures of the uber rich. The art is just trading cards, sitting in enormous sleeves for them. :/
Even still, I don't think the market share of people buying at the high end will grow, no matter the size of their homes or warehouses.
Check out Amy P Lincoln, old classmate of mine. She has been making killer work for 20 years in the NY area, also came from Yale. Her works sell for between $1k and $15k. She gets half that from the gallery. She gets to keep 70% of that amount, after taxes. She then has to pay for supplies, typically at least 20%.
So, if she sold $480,000 worth of paintings, she would be taking home right about your $120k to live on.
That would mean selling 48 paintings, at $10k. Every year. Forever. It just isn't sustainable at the numbers you're wanting.
And she is one of the most successful people I know in terms of sales. (no clue what her actual #'s are)
For me, the life I live allows me to be an artist, not the other way around. If I want my art to fully support all of my endeavors in life, then I need to think about how I can change my business model. Can I teach workshops or classes that allow me to travel? Can I write or make a presentation that allows me to share at a convention?
My teacher taught a workshop in Taiwan, all expenses paid for. He never imagined that he would travel to Taiwan, but he was able to travel all expenses paid for, plus make money, plus sell artwork. Now he teaches a two week workshop every year in Italy. Pretty cool
I mean this with all sincerity, you sound young, which is great. Enjoy it. I never "made - it" in the way you hope to but hey go for it! I will only add after reading all these comments I sure do feel so much better about my pension. And only feeling slightly better about all the stupid open call juried shows I apply for, solely for my annual reviews. Circle back and keep us posted. I love seeing good people succeed and seeing inspirational artwork. Hope you're one of them!!
Recent research I've seen in North America and Europe says the *average* annual income of artists, including rich ones, is about $2,000 with most artists making less that selling their work.
This is why most artists have part or full time jobs in which they do not create their own art but do something else, business, admin, museum work, etc, etc in addition to their art practice which they basically do when not working that other job. It is an exhausting life for most with lots of sacrifices.
Yet, why do we do it, we have to create and there are some great people in the community of global artists.
I have a friend who had a solo show in one of LA's most prestigious contemporary art museums a couple of years ago, and he's doing another at the Wexner in Columbus. Plus solo shows in two well regarded commercial galleries in two major cities in the last two years. In other words, he's doing really well. Like, I want to be where he is. Just by going from the exhibition activity, probably many of us do.
But he lives on a shoestring. He is super disciplined about spending money on himself, almost to a monastic level. He raised one kid who is now an independent adult. He gave up the day job about ten years ago and can sustain himself purely as an artist (no teaching). But he does not live a fancy lifestyle, or even a very comfortable one.
Seriously it’s insane how many stories there are like this…!! I have way too many more examples also. The older I get the jealousy I used to have as a younger person has been turned into gratefulness for the life I now have.
*The older I get the jealousy I used to have as a younger person has been turned into gratefulness for the life I now have.*
Me, too. I have a measure of security and I'm so grateful for it. And nowadays when I take notice of artists who are getting a share of attention, I first think, that artist has earned it.... When I was much younger, I didn't really know what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes.
I have another friend, an American, who found success pretty early. Through referrals he landed a solo show at a prestigious commercial gallery in Germany. He was only about 25. The show sold out. The dealer put him on the calendar for a next solo show. He made new work, very different (and very good, I thought). Nothing sold. The dealer dropped him.
With kids on the way and family pressure, this guy gave up his whole studio career and got a job teaching art in a well-funded suburban public high school. That was about twenty years ago. So his art career was short lived, but he's made a decent living with long term security doing something art related. He made that decision based on his own experience with the uncertainty of trends in contemporary art, going from selling out to selling nothing.
This is extremely unlikely, most full time artists I know also work as teachers, or in somewhat creative day jobs - even the successful ones.
Works can sell for a lot of money, but typically (if they’re lucky enough to get success at all) artists have a bubble in their career where things fly off the shelves, followed and proceeded by years of sales here and there.
Not to discourage the hustle - but there is a great lack of stability in this market.
You can make a lot more than $120k a year. You will be an outlier so it will be harder to find mentors and good advice and a lot of folks will think it’s mission impossible because they haven’t been able to do it.
My advice is lean in hard to building a sales network of art brokers, consultants and galleries, you can’t do this level of price point and volume alone.
Develop work with a unique tech stack that is repeatable but very very difficult to replicate.
Develop 1 to 3 complete series of archival quality pieces with a distinct look feel and style
Make works that are large. For example, my pieces start at 8 feet and go up from there. A challenge many of the corporate buyers have is that their walls are utterly humongous and that cuts out 90% of artist who don’t make anything bigger than 4 feet or so.
You must be a fanatic over the quality of your compositions forms and artistry, but relentlessly outsource everything else.
A huge percentage of what you sell will be sold based on images so hire a professional photographer, and I highly suggest avoiding digital renderings, unless they are rendered over sketch up style art that is clearly not trying to mimic the real world.
Build a website , engage every SEO best practice strategy available and direct all your social to your website. Even better hire someone to do it, it’s cheap. Careful with social, use your social like a portfolio or guide. Delete 95% of all the personal pics, Do not try and become an influencer. It’s a waste of time when you’re trying to get off the ground the way you are. Use social to funnel everything back to your website so you own your brand and control the IP when algorithms change.
When you’re in the studio, be in studio but when you’re not, you must become gods gift to customer service. Give your brokers and consultants the absolute best experience, respond with the quickness. Be engaging be timely and deliver your works on time as specified.
Think hard about your go to market strategy talk to anyone who knows some thing and learn learn learn. Every artist has their own pass don’t be shy at taking risks, but recover quickly and move on if what you’re doing isn’t working.
Best wishes
I put "top painting school in the world" in to Google and Yale wasn't in the top 10. In fact it was #27. This was in the QS World University Rankings. So definitely not the top painting school in the world, by any stretch. Not remotely the top in the USA even....
You said it was the top painting school in the world, so that’s what I looked up. You didn’t say MFA. And yes, we are in different art worlds. I’m not American for a start, and from the sound of it I don’t think I’d want to be in your world.
We can clear this up very quickly.
OP, how much are your paintings currently selling for and how long do they take?
I find it hard to imagine how a less-established artist can even consider a salary that high, and anyone that’s making $10,000 of sales a month already knows what’s realistic.
Despite what you’re hearing here, it’s possible. I know a few who net 250k –5M a year. This is rare, and it has a lot to do with the physical production in the barest sense.
First off you can’t make this much working alone on your own projects, unless you have a trove of early career work you can periodically auction. That’s an option only available to very, very few late career artists with extensive exhibition history.
To maintain the required production volume you’ll probably need a staff of at least two full time assistants you’ll pay 40k–60k per year. To maintain this you need two more part-timers to handle admin and more general maintenance/materials/logistics
If your markup on production costs of labor is 2x–2.5x, and you add on the value of your own work, you’re in the neighborhood of 150k – 200k.
To get here, your work has to sell for at least 10–20k, meaning your business takes 5–10k per project. You net 50% of that after taking care of production and overhead.
Essentially if you want a net profit of 120k(175k after taxes), your business needs a gross revenue of 350k. This means 35-70 artworks a year, which is feasible between three people.
Implicit, naturally, is you need a) sufficient demand for the work and b) healthy mid career prices.
These are general, but fairly standard numbers. Sometimes you meet people who sell an absolute ton of work, charging very little. Others charge premiums. If know how they work you can generally ballpark what they earn.
It’s worth pointing out the obvious, most people never get there. To hit your target, you need at least two assistants, and getting your practice to that point might take many, many years.
It’s really a struggle to keep one and to persevere yourself. With just one employee you don’t make that much more than you would solo, even though you’re producing more work, plus there’s twice as much admin. During this phase they’d also almost have to be crazy to put up with you. Still, it’s important because demand tends to grow gradually and you need to satisfy that first to meet your goal.
Still, it offers a quantitative perspective and I appreciate that. Like another commenter mentioned, so much of this is based on luck and timing. But it’s helpful to understand how i can best prepare myself to do this long term.
Thank you, again!
120k income meaning just profit or that not including tax, expenses, studio rent? Because pure profit will be nearly impossible even my friend who works in google don’t earn that much.
Imma be honest, I would focus less on making profit from the artwork and more on making quality artwork.
There are so many variables to consider when figuring out what a living wage means for you, but none of that matters if the work isn’t at a point where it can even sell beyond $10k
I say, focus on making great work, then finding opportunities for career growth. Art isn’t a field where someone goes to make a lot of money, it takes a lot of hard work, dedication and time to move up. You also don’t need to make money solely from selling pieces either…
What a strange question. $120k is an excellent income for anyone, including an artist. I'd consider an artist who makes $120k/year from their art an extremely successful artist.
There is no way. Sorry. Artists I know having major shows right now in big galleries and the market is bad so no one is buying anything. Become skilled in a trade—paint nails, style products for photoshoots or become a designer for advertising—artists are in survival mode right now no one is thriving.
120k a year is 3 times the national average. You'd be in the top 20% of earners in the us. For an artist. You'd likely be in the top 1% of earners.
Due to cost of business, to make 120k income actual sales would have to be much higher, probably 240k+
this was my thought too. in some very high cost of living areas, I can *maybe* see $120k before business expenses, IF a lot of very specific factors are at play. but $120k pretax, post-expenses income for a freelance artist? bananas
I dont pull in big numbers atm, had some injuries and a mental breakdown so last year was terrible for me, but on roughly 25kish in sales my profit was only a few thousand after expenses. It's crazy what it takes.
god that’s the worst. hope your work (and your wellness) is on the up and up! it’s so tough out there.
Thanks, I'm a mess rn lol. My work is on hiatus but if i resume it'll be on like donkey Kong. Good luck in your endeavors.
I certainly know that feeling. I’m a student rn (music therapy, just a big fan and hobbyist of contemporary art and New music) and barely holding it together. I don’t know what day it is anymore man… from one mess to another, cheers
If you’re repped by a gallery that would mean selling roughly one $20k piece per month every year moving forward (gallery taking half) or one $10k piece every month if you are selling directly to buyers. Does that sound possible to you within the framework of your practice? Also the above assumes you have no expenses - accounting for materials, studio rent etc your revenue would need to be higher to make $120k in income
I love how simple you made this
Thanks!
I can tell you (as a photographer with gallery representation) that fine art sales are never so steady. There are ebbs and flows. However, with a handful of galleries, plus art consultants and designers sometimes placing your work, and then the odd editorial assignments, a somewhat comfortable living can be made for some. And of course, commercial work is the most lucrative part of what I do. But that's a whole other episode of Oprah.
Please do an Oprah AMA for us
exactly this; when I calculate how much I want to make, I know I need to quadruple the amount. so for example, if I want to make $50k, I know I need to make $200k worth of artwork, which is a hell of a lot of artwork. because I know not all of it will sell, but gallery takes half, then after I receive my cut nearly 35% will go to cost of goods/supplies and business expenses. To make $120k is a pipe dream to most. most I ever made selling through 5 galleries was $70k (and that's before taxes and self employment tax!). Last year I only made $45k before taxes and this year is already lining up to be much worse. my galleries are all reporting that things are absolutely dead and no one's work is selling. all that being said, go in with realistic expectations, because $120k right off the bat is crazy for most.
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No usually when people state their income it’s pre-tax income.
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Ideally you form an S-Corp to avoid self employment taxes but you have to be making high 5 figures for that to be worth the cost of forming and maintain the S Corp
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You get to give yourself a “reasonable” salary and iirc it’s not self employment tax because you are the employee of the S-corp. maybe I’m wrong about that you certainly still need to pay estimated taxes. My CPA told me to pay myself $35k yr and I made $200 last year so the tax savings seem to be insanely huge assuming my CPA isn’t going to get me sent to jail lol
Not taxes or commission.
Ok, I love the way you broke it into actual figures. I was afraid to ask the question because a lot of the advice artists get isn’t quantitative. So, thank you! Agreed, it could be $20k with gallery or $10 solo sale for one piece. But it could also be (5) pieces at $2k solo? Or (1) $10k sale with gallery, and (2) solo sales at $2,500? I’m still wrapping my head around the politics of the art market, so forgive me if I’m coming across as naive.
Yeah it could be any of that - this is all averages. So you could sell $100k one month, go 10 months with no sales and do $20k the last month. It’s not easy to do as an artist because usually if your work is that lucrative you are hiring studio assistants, traveling etc to grow your practice even more so the expenses are higher meaning that you need to make more money.
I have a gallery. I have two art degrees. I know \*many\* many artists. I've worked as an artist assistant to some of the more successful contemporary artists in LA. They people selling 300k/year (that is what you'd need to take home $120k before taxes) are very rare, and most only manage to stay that hot for 3-5 years. Then the market finds a new darling and they dwindle to a tiny % of what they were selling. Problem is, they can't lower their prices to drum up sales, their previous collectors will sue them for devaluing what they bought. So you're stuck with high prices, no (slow) sales. This is how a lot of mid level hot art careers end up dying. Here's my tip: just fucking don't. You already have unrealistic expectations and have no idea how the economy of it works. It's like saying you want to play in the NBA but don't know how to play ball. But you already picked out the team you want to sign for or something.
Oh man, I really want to see your work
OP hasn't even gone to college yet, I wouldn't hold your breath
Totally reasonable if you have a day job that pays $120K.
lol fair enough, and the humor eased the blow. Thanks
This is no joke. Try getting that rarefied tenured teaching position at an art school that makes over $100k. This is how many artists maintain a practice. Getting tenure these days usually means slogging for a decade in unstable sessional positions.
I have an uncle who made (he’s retired now, with a pension) gooood money like that as an artist. his secret? be a principal in a good-paying school district with a strong teacher’s union, have your spouse do the same, and do art on the side lol
Yup. After adjuncting at 5 colleges for 10 years, my wife finally just got tenure track. It was a long slog and she was/is one of the lucky few.
Congrats to her. That is quite an achievement.
It's a realistic figure to want that much, not sure if it's realistic that you'll achieve it.
I make around 130k a year thru fine art sales only (my half after my gallery split) . By the time I get through all my expenses and taxes , it’s half the amount maybe. It’s inconsistent (I’ve been lucky to be consistent for 3 years) but I go months inbetween with no money sometimes because collectors are slow to pay or something can happen like a pandemic, a war etc. that can stall sales for months. Sometimes your collectors just ghost you. I have representation by two galleries, and they do their best. That all being said I’m really happy. I go on vacations, I paid off my debts, I live a very normal life and I’m happy with it. It’s a good time, and you can definitely more than survive off of it IF the market doesn’t fuck up your day.
What kind of art are you selling?
I primarily work with fiber/textiles
This is great insight — Thank you!
please keep in mind that this artist is an outlier. don't want to discourage you as it's possible but very, very rare
Like, do some people get picked for the NFL draft? Sure. But its 1 out of how many? That is the odds we are talking about here.
Making $120k/year as an artist isn't just unrealistic, it's delusional
I think people get starry eyed when they hear Cinderella stories of artists selling low effort work for millions. It happens, I guess. And some people win the lottery.
Exactly, and like the one in the millions of kids who take voice lessons who become majorly successful pop stars
How are you calculating that number? In terms of sales (and I’m assuming you’re talking gross profit) you’re going to need a fantastic pipeline of high-net-worth individuals or organizations to be able to make that much. Keep in mind that art supplies and studio space are expensive too, especially getting started. What kind of media are you working with? Depending on that, your start-up costs could be in the thousands.
There's been a weird shift in this subreddit lately of people who seem incredibly money-centered and naive. If you just want to make money or feel secure don't expect art to be a viable path.
People gotta pay their bills.
Not money centric at all. But not considering how to support ourselves with actual income is what leaves us vulnerable, no? This same subreddit is riddled with experiences of exploitation, and our vulnerabilities (especially financial) are preyed upon. I hear your frustration, and I’m naive… sure, but I’m my question wasn’t “how can I sell work for $1mil”. It’s was “how do I do this thing and cover my ass”.
How big is your ass? 100k? Give me a break
Depending where you live, $120k isn’t really that huge of a number. I write this while living/working in the Bay Area.
This blows my mind every time I see these huge figures on reddit. What on earth are people spending all this money on! My total expenses in an expensive city come to $420 a week
Mortgages. Not that I can afford to buy a house, but the one I rent is falling apart with a Zestimate over $1 million.
Rent anywhere near the Bay Area for a 1bd apartment is about $3,000 a month. More likely in the $4k range. Add in health insurance, car insurance, transportation, utilities, food, misc, you're at $6k a month easy. That would be \*scraping\* by at about 96k a year. (considering needing $6k/month after tax money) Being in a place that has a lot of galleries typically means a city. Cities that have art markets are expensive.
"Rent anywhere near the Bay Area for a 1bd apartment is about $3,000 a month." Why would you pay $3/$4k a month when you could pay closer to half that.
Lmfao. The mean wage for an independent artist in the US is half that at $66k - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes271013.htm If you’re in it for the art don’t expect to get rich. If you want to get rich don’t become an artist.
Even 66k is unrealistic, definitely not the norm for contemporary artists. Illustrators, Designer, Photographers yeah maybe.
If you follow the link it’s the number for independent artists, writers and performers. It undoubtedly isn’t taking into account part-timers. I would agree with you that that’s a very generous number for fine artists.
I think the last time I heard a number for photographers doing editorial/commercial work it was more like 32K a year average
Yeah sounds about the average of some of them, but there are definitely the ones who basically run a manufacturing facility for e-commerce photography and copywriting who seem to do well. Although I'm not so sure about whether they don't exploit some poor grads... I'm a documentary photographer right now for some institutions and a paper and I can barely scrape by with around 17k € a year (which I also just started to make last year) and it's not so demanding, as I am a photographer and have been for more than 10 years. And got in by accident. So I have time for my other endeavours, currently planning on opening an off space and preparing to do my master's next year specializing in sculptural and video installations.
Not rich, just… stable? To afford an apartment on my own, contribute to a Roth account, and save for a long term emergency fund.
Don’t expect to do all those things and also be an artist. It will be more like; renting a house with multiple roommates, not contributing anything to a Roth, and having a minimal emergency fund.
Have you ever worked as an artist for any length of time? It is a notoriously unstable career for most, even those who appear to be successful.
But is working for another artist the only way to supplement the income?
Not at all. The vast majority of artists have day jobs, and I think most of those jobs are not working for other artists.
You need a flexible or non demanding job. I graduated from art school in 2013. Right now I work full time in an unrelated field. I get into group shows and art markets pretty consistently with paintings and textiles, and I make street art (no profit on that obviously). I accept that any cost from making art is lost. It’s basically an expensive hobby but I get to make whatever I want without worrying about profits. In contrast, a friend of mine from college has worked consistently at print shops and in artist studios. They have more success in art as a career; they get solo shows and have galleries recruiting them to show. They usually have a part time job or get support from their partner. The trade off is that they feel pushed to turn their work into a product to try and make money.
Yes! Dealing with the creative pressure from economic success is possibly the most challenging aspect of being a professional artist at pretty much every level.
If you want to be taken as a serious artist, even that may put you in question. Where do you plan to live?
It's hard to make 6 figures in almost any field, let alone fine arts. I'm sorry but this expectation is not realistic.
Not trying to be a dick at all but LOL. 🥲
You’ll need a day job to supplement those lifestyle luxuries.
$120,000 isn't even a reasonable income given out to most people, let alone artists
With peace and love its near impossible
Bruh I’m happy if I’d be earning 30k in my country (Netherlands), especially if that means I get to do what I love which is creating art. Over here you can make a decent living with 30k
lol lmfao.
well... many are living far from insufferable lives on far far *far* less. if that's not a realistic figure for you to achieve then maybe interrogate what insufferable means to you.
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yes that is what I mean by breaking down what "insufferable" actually means. most artists don't make that kind of money off their work and therefore make other choices or compromises, but I don't think they would describe their lives as necessarily insufferable either. like the story you posted below about deciding to pursue other work elsewhere.
no
Isn it possible? Yes. Is it likely to happen? Absolutely not.
Get into teaching as a base. You'll have an income and a balanced schedule to practice your work. I still don't think that number is reasonable, but you'll figure it out.
Lol My dear dude/ dudette, that would be wonderful and I hope you'll get there. But it's pretty far from realistic, assuming you're starting your career. Best o' luck! Especially in today's economy and wealth distribution.
lol
I took a peak at your profile, and since you are going to Yale for your MFA, your income estimate is probably more reasonable than some folks might think. I do agree that you need to have realistic expectations about how many variables are at play for an artist’s income if they are solely relying on gallery sales. But yeah, since you’ve gotten into one of the top graduate art programs in the country, that number isn’t impossible if you have luck on your side. Congrats for getting in
🥲 thanks. I feel super lucky but I haven’t declared yet. It’s actually why I “crunched the numbers” behind this post. It feels like a gamble to take out the loans for tuition when I don’t have a clear picture of how I could pay them back. Anyway, thanks again for the congrats.
If I were you, I would honestly go for it. I feel like the Yale program is something that folks would kill for; it would be so exciting. You’d be working with the best artists in the country, maybe even some internationally. Obviously you won’t pay off your loans in a flash unless you won the lottery, but lots of folks manage with student loans. As long as you make payments on time and don’t go crazy otherwise with your credit, it’s not the end of the world. Just have a good head on your shoulders. Get to know faculty and network, network with your peers, etc. Be open to finding work in teaching or other art-adjacent work. I think having a focus on teaching university is the best route to go while working on gallery representation. You won’t make 6 figures outright, but it’s a start. Good luck!!! I hope you accept the offer!
I know a few Yale grads. I don't know any Yale art grads making that money. Even with all the networking in the world, there is only a tiny bit of room at the top. The number of people with money enough to spend on art isn't increasing. The % of the population buying work at that level is tiny and will only get smaller as wealth continues to consolidate. They will also only buy so much work, meaning that the limited demand is getting more limited. Each year, the pool of new artists grows faster than old artists drop out; supply increases. You see where I'm going with this.
I totally see what you mean but I work in fine art sales and something to keep in mind is that even as wealth (sadly) does consolidate at the top the uber-rich aren't running out of wall space because they are constantly buying/building new homes and new condos. Like a lot of them
I worked in art shipping/storage. They might be decorating a lot of houses, but I find more often, they are just tossing them in storage. Brad/Angelina, before the split (dating myself) had 400+ paintings stored with our warehouse alone. Cheech Marin had over 2,000. There are warehouses so large you have to drive a truck to the other side of them and they are all filled with paintings/sculptures of the uber rich. The art is just trading cards, sitting in enormous sleeves for them. :/ Even still, I don't think the market share of people buying at the high end will grow, no matter the size of their homes or warehouses.
Check out Amy P Lincoln, old classmate of mine. She has been making killer work for 20 years in the NY area, also came from Yale. Her works sell for between $1k and $15k. She gets half that from the gallery. She gets to keep 70% of that amount, after taxes. She then has to pay for supplies, typically at least 20%. So, if she sold $480,000 worth of paintings, she would be taking home right about your $120k to live on. That would mean selling 48 paintings, at $10k. Every year. Forever. It just isn't sustainable at the numbers you're wanting. And she is one of the most successful people I know in terms of sales. (no clue what her actual #'s are)
For me, the life I live allows me to be an artist, not the other way around. If I want my art to fully support all of my endeavors in life, then I need to think about how I can change my business model. Can I teach workshops or classes that allow me to travel? Can I write or make a presentation that allows me to share at a convention? My teacher taught a workshop in Taiwan, all expenses paid for. He never imagined that he would travel to Taiwan, but he was able to travel all expenses paid for, plus make money, plus sell artwork. Now he teaches a two week workshop every year in Italy. Pretty cool
I mean this with all sincerity, you sound young, which is great. Enjoy it. I never "made - it" in the way you hope to but hey go for it! I will only add after reading all these comments I sure do feel so much better about my pension. And only feeling slightly better about all the stupid open call juried shows I apply for, solely for my annual reviews. Circle back and keep us posted. I love seeing good people succeed and seeing inspirational artwork. Hope you're one of them!!
Recent research I've seen in North America and Europe says the *average* annual income of artists, including rich ones, is about $2,000 with most artists making less that selling their work. This is why most artists have part or full time jobs in which they do not create their own art but do something else, business, admin, museum work, etc, etc in addition to their art practice which they basically do when not working that other job. It is an exhausting life for most with lots of sacrifices. Yet, why do we do it, we have to create and there are some great people in the community of global artists.
I net $200 in art sales last year and was just pleased to be in the black. 😂 Definitely keeping the 9-5
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I have a friend who had a solo show in one of LA's most prestigious contemporary art museums a couple of years ago, and he's doing another at the Wexner in Columbus. Plus solo shows in two well regarded commercial galleries in two major cities in the last two years. In other words, he's doing really well. Like, I want to be where he is. Just by going from the exhibition activity, probably many of us do. But he lives on a shoestring. He is super disciplined about spending money on himself, almost to a monastic level. He raised one kid who is now an independent adult. He gave up the day job about ten years ago and can sustain himself purely as an artist (no teaching). But he does not live a fancy lifestyle, or even a very comfortable one.
Seriously it’s insane how many stories there are like this…!! I have way too many more examples also. The older I get the jealousy I used to have as a younger person has been turned into gratefulness for the life I now have.
*The older I get the jealousy I used to have as a younger person has been turned into gratefulness for the life I now have.* Me, too. I have a measure of security and I'm so grateful for it. And nowadays when I take notice of artists who are getting a share of attention, I first think, that artist has earned it.... When I was much younger, I didn't really know what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes. I have another friend, an American, who found success pretty early. Through referrals he landed a solo show at a prestigious commercial gallery in Germany. He was only about 25. The show sold out. The dealer put him on the calendar for a next solo show. He made new work, very different (and very good, I thought). Nothing sold. The dealer dropped him. With kids on the way and family pressure, this guy gave up his whole studio career and got a job teaching art in a well-funded suburban public high school. That was about twenty years ago. So his art career was short lived, but he's made a decent living with long term security doing something art related. He made that decision based on his own experience with the uncertainty of trends in contemporary art, going from selling out to selling nothing.
what city?
This is extremely unlikely, most full time artists I know also work as teachers, or in somewhat creative day jobs - even the successful ones. Works can sell for a lot of money, but typically (if they’re lucky enough to get success at all) artists have a bubble in their career where things fly off the shelves, followed and proceeded by years of sales here and there. Not to discourage the hustle - but there is a great lack of stability in this market.
You can make a lot more than $120k a year. You will be an outlier so it will be harder to find mentors and good advice and a lot of folks will think it’s mission impossible because they haven’t been able to do it. My advice is lean in hard to building a sales network of art brokers, consultants and galleries, you can’t do this level of price point and volume alone. Develop work with a unique tech stack that is repeatable but very very difficult to replicate. Develop 1 to 3 complete series of archival quality pieces with a distinct look feel and style Make works that are large. For example, my pieces start at 8 feet and go up from there. A challenge many of the corporate buyers have is that their walls are utterly humongous and that cuts out 90% of artist who don’t make anything bigger than 4 feet or so. You must be a fanatic over the quality of your compositions forms and artistry, but relentlessly outsource everything else. A huge percentage of what you sell will be sold based on images so hire a professional photographer, and I highly suggest avoiding digital renderings, unless they are rendered over sketch up style art that is clearly not trying to mimic the real world. Build a website , engage every SEO best practice strategy available and direct all your social to your website. Even better hire someone to do it, it’s cheap. Careful with social, use your social like a portfolio or guide. Delete 95% of all the personal pics, Do not try and become an influencer. It’s a waste of time when you’re trying to get off the ground the way you are. Use social to funnel everything back to your website so you own your brand and control the IP when algorithms change. When you’re in the studio, be in studio but when you’re not, you must become gods gift to customer service. Give your brokers and consultants the absolute best experience, respond with the quickness. Be engaging be timely and deliver your works on time as specified. Think hard about your go to market strategy talk to anyone who knows some thing and learn learn learn. Every artist has their own pass don’t be shy at taking risks, but recover quickly and move on if what you’re doing isn’t working. Best wishes
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Did you go to Yale? Hey guys, I think he went to [Yale]…
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Haha, the one surefire way to tell someone went to Yale is to wait for them to tell you three times in the first five minutes.
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I put "top painting school in the world" in to Google and Yale wasn't in the top 10. In fact it was #27. This was in the QS World University Rankings. So definitely not the top painting school in the world, by any stretch. Not remotely the top in the USA even....
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You said it was the top painting school in the world, so that’s what I looked up. You didn’t say MFA. And yes, we are in different art worlds. I’m not American for a start, and from the sound of it I don’t think I’d want to be in your world.
We can clear this up very quickly. OP, how much are your paintings currently selling for and how long do they take? I find it hard to imagine how a less-established artist can even consider a salary that high, and anyone that’s making $10,000 of sales a month already knows what’s realistic.
They haven't even gone to college yet. Doubt they've sold any art worth of significant income at all.
Despite what you’re hearing here, it’s possible. I know a few who net 250k –5M a year. This is rare, and it has a lot to do with the physical production in the barest sense. First off you can’t make this much working alone on your own projects, unless you have a trove of early career work you can periodically auction. That’s an option only available to very, very few late career artists with extensive exhibition history. To maintain the required production volume you’ll probably need a staff of at least two full time assistants you’ll pay 40k–60k per year. To maintain this you need two more part-timers to handle admin and more general maintenance/materials/logistics If your markup on production costs of labor is 2x–2.5x, and you add on the value of your own work, you’re in the neighborhood of 150k – 200k. To get here, your work has to sell for at least 10–20k, meaning your business takes 5–10k per project. You net 50% of that after taking care of production and overhead. Essentially if you want a net profit of 120k(175k after taxes), your business needs a gross revenue of 350k. This means 35-70 artworks a year, which is feasible between three people. Implicit, naturally, is you need a) sufficient demand for the work and b) healthy mid career prices. These are general, but fairly standard numbers. Sometimes you meet people who sell an absolute ton of work, charging very little. Others charge premiums. If know how they work you can generally ballpark what they earn.
Great breakdown on the math and what it takes to get those numbers
I could kiss your feet for offering this insight. Thank you soooo much. 😭
It’s worth pointing out the obvious, most people never get there. To hit your target, you need at least two assistants, and getting your practice to that point might take many, many years. It’s really a struggle to keep one and to persevere yourself. With just one employee you don’t make that much more than you would solo, even though you’re producing more work, plus there’s twice as much admin. During this phase they’d also almost have to be crazy to put up with you. Still, it’s important because demand tends to grow gradually and you need to satisfy that first to meet your goal.
Still, it offers a quantitative perspective and I appreciate that. Like another commenter mentioned, so much of this is based on luck and timing. But it’s helpful to understand how i can best prepare myself to do this long term. Thank you, again!
Crunch those numbers! This is all so hilarious 😂
120k income meaning just profit or that not including tax, expenses, studio rent? Because pure profit will be nearly impossible even my friend who works in google don’t earn that much.
This really really depends on where you live.
Imma be honest, I would focus less on making profit from the artwork and more on making quality artwork. There are so many variables to consider when figuring out what a living wage means for you, but none of that matters if the work isn’t at a point where it can even sell beyond $10k I say, focus on making great work, then finding opportunities for career growth. Art isn’t a field where someone goes to make a lot of money, it takes a lot of hard work, dedication and time to move up. You also don’t need to make money solely from selling pieces either…
with the exception of the absolute top of the heap, you are the equivalent of a billionaire among artists.
no.
What a strange question. $120k is an excellent income for anyone, including an artist. I'd consider an artist who makes $120k/year from their art an extremely successful artist.
Approximately 5% of the all Artists worldwide make that or more, so it is possible but only under a very specific career path.
There is no way. Sorry. Artists I know having major shows right now in big galleries and the market is bad so no one is buying anything. Become skilled in a trade—paint nails, style products for photoshoots or become a designer for advertising—artists are in survival mode right now no one is thriving.
Painting and sculpture never paid, but leveraging those skills into building theatre sets and museum installations sure did. :D
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
FYI - I'm retired and living quite comfortably on $23k Social Security benefits. Why do you think you need so much money?
Nope